sidadm wrote
I am not bashing Zionists (Jews).
I am merely saying that I think the Christian "Zionists" are being duped by incorrect endtime eschatology.
Hope that's clear.
That's all.
Thanks for that. I appreciate it. I perhaps could have used the phrase "Christian Zionism bashing" instead of Zionism bashing. The growing trend of Christian Zionism bashing coming from many evangelicals is what I was mainly referring to. I suppose also that the two, Zionism and Christian Zionism, have in many ways come to be associated closely with one another in the minds of many so as to blur in their minds any real distinctions between the secular and biblical view of the events in Palestine today that different parties hold. Some also seem to believe that any criticism of Christian Zionism is anti-semitic and that's far from true. The differences have just become a sore point of contention
In my opinion, it's worth noting that many who believe that Christian "Zionists" are being duped by incorrect endtime eschatology have much in common with the same theological tradition that has a long history of advocating that the Jews would never return to Palestine. Commenting on Jeremiah 32:37-41, Calvin wrote,
37 – “Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath, and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
38 - “And they shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 – and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good, and for the good of their children after them.
40 – “And I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them to do good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
41 – “And I will rejoice over them to do them good and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all my soul.
"We now understand what the Prophet means when he compares to a plantation the restoration of the people after their return from exile. We know, indeed, that the people from that time had not been banished, and that the Temple had ever stood, though the faithful had been pressed down with many troubles; but this was only a type of a plantation. We must necessarily then pass on to Christ, in order to have a complete fulfillment of this promise….Let us know then that the Church was planted in Judea, for it remained to the time of Christ. And as Christ has pulled down the wall of partition, so that there is now no difference between Jews and Gentiles, God now plants us in the holy land, when he grafts us into the body of Christ." (John Calvin - "The Book of the Prophet Jeremiah" - pg 220-21)
Me: So after a regathering, "I will faithfully plant them in this land" now becomes allegorically being planted in the holy land upon becoming a believer. So how could there be a literal regathering? I think allegorical interpretations like this cloud the original meaning and can help make the original intent of the author null and void. This voiding of the original intent allows theological presuppositions to be imposed upon the text that were not originally intended.
Francis Turretin (1623-1687)
Studied at Calvin's Academy in Geneva and later taught there for 30 years
With regard to the prophetic expectations of Israel's restoration beyond the return from Babylon, Turretin wrote,
"the expressions are not to be pressed literally because they are symbolical, not proper; typical, not literal; to be explained spiritually and not carnally. Israel is to be restored, not according to the flesh and letter, but according to the promise and spirit (Romans 9); the holy city, not Jerusalem, but the church."
Certainly there will be a remarkable conversion of the Jews before the end of the world,
"not that all will be converted, but that many will...(although we cannot be certain either in what way or when precisely it will take place)....But whatever that calling of them shall be, a restitution of the Jewish polity in the land of Canaan is not to be dreamed of....Besides, this polity was to last only until Christ....Finally, if God had wished to restore that polity, he would never have allowed it to be abolished for so long a time (over sixteen centuries).(F. Turretin, Institutes of Elentic Theology, 2:163)
Me: Turretin advocates that prophecies of a later return after the return from Babylon are not to be taken literally because they are symbolic and are to be explained spiritually. And "a restitution of the Jewish polity in the land of Canaan is not to be dreamed of." Sure at the time of Turretin's writing this Jewish polity in Canaan had been abolished for over sixteen centuries but what has happened since then? I know I have pointed out some famous names and I don't mean to minimize their contributions. Yet, in spite of all the abuses and modern fluff and sensationalism (and publishing industry) surrounding modern examination of prophecy, all that many are saying is that if the remaining prophecies, especially those regarding a real Israel, are to be intepreted spiritually and symbolically only then this flies in the face of literal prophetic fulfillment until now.
