Why I Reject Cessationism

Why I Reject Cessationism

by

Jimmy Humphrey

There is a theological position known as cessationism. The basic idea behind this doctrine is the rejection of the contemporary existence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, there are various degrees of cessationism. A few people reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit altogether. But much more common is the rejection of the more “spectacular” gifts, namely that of prophecy. And there are various reasons for this position, namely, it is based on the belief that upon the completion of the canon of Scripture, there was no more need for the gift of prophecy. So, with the Scriptures being complete, the gift of prophecy is viewed as having faded away.

Such is a very short and simplistic overview of the cessationist position. And there are many reasons why, Biblically speaking, we should reject such a position.

One of the main reasons we should reject such a view is because the Scriptures teach no such thing. Proponents of cessationism say that the contemporary existence of the gift of prophecy would undermine the important reformation doctrine of sola Scriptura– that the Scriptures alone are sufficient for our faith. But the main problem with this argument is that the Scriptures do not teach that the gift of prophecy somehow undermines the sufficiency of the canon of Scripture for our faith. It is rather ironic, that while espousing sola Scriptura, those who hold to a cessationist position actually rely on an extra-Biblical argument to make their case. And in doing so, they are actually the ones undermining the doctrine of sola Scriptura.

For instead of teaching about the prophetic gifts fading out of existence after the completion of the canon, the Scriptures teach in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12-14, and Ephesians 4 that the gift of prophecy actually compliments the revelation contained within the Scriptures, and has a usefulness in the regular life of the church beyond the writing of sacred Scripture. Indeed, in these passages the gift of prophecy is seen as a gift that exists for the purpose of building up others in the faith, and serving as an aid to maturing the body of Christ as a whole. To say that the gift of prophecy existed for the primary purpose of the creation of the canon of Scripture is to employ an argument the Scriptures themselves never make. As central as the Scriptures are to our faith, might I be so bold as to say that its existence is merely a bi-product of the gift of prophecy, and not the main purpose for which the gift was intended?

For the primary purpose of the gift of prophecy is to actively declare the mind of God. The prophet is one who literally speaks on behalf of another. In the history of the prophetic ministry, the Scriptures were so inspired out of men who actively declared what God had to say. And in all their declaring, a body of literature was written down and preserved for all time, and this body of literature contains within it the faith once and for all handed down to the saints. And we must never minimize this whatsoever. But the Scriptures in themselves never contain every prophetic message ever uttered in the history of time. Indeed, Noah was a prophet, but none of his oracles are recorded. The prophet Samuel spoke many times on behalf of the Lord, and all of Israel confirmed Samuel as a prophetic minister. Yet we have hardly any of his prophecies. Likewise, John the Baptist spent quite some time out in the wilderness prophesying, yet we only have a handful of his words recorded. And above all people, our Lord Jesus Christ spent three years on earth ministering as a prophet, yet for all the words He spoke, John reminds us that Christ said and did many more things that were not recorded.

But in saying all of this, and as important as these points have been, I believe there is one major reason alone why we should reject any partial or total cessationist theologies. And that reason is central to all of the Scriptures. We should reject cessationist theologies because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a contemporary, modern-day prophet. Indeed, Hebrews 1 reminds us that God has in these last days spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ, as a modern-day living prophet, is still carrying out His prophetic ministry that began 2,000 years ago in Judea. The Lord has not grown silent just because the canon of Scriptures is complete. Jesus Christ is still speaking on behalf of God today.

And one of the ways in which Jesus Christ still speaks on behalf of God today is through the Church. Namely, through those who, being a part of His body, share in the prophetic ministry He Himself has. It is my contention that those well meaning brethren who deny contemporary prophetic ministry have a major blind spot in their theology. Namely, they fail to see that Jesus Christ has a present day prophetic ministry. And though they confess Him as Prophet, Priest, and King, practically speaking, they deny the prophetic ministry of Jesus Christ by denying a place for the gift of prophecy in the Church today. For in making no room for prophetic expression today, the ministry of Christ Himself as a prophet is effectively silenced.

And the last thing this world needs is for God to be mute. This is why I reject cessationism.

http://christthinks.com/2011/02/13/why-i-reject-cessationism/

What is a "contemporary prophetic ministry", how does it work and what does it do?

In Christ: Phillip

I believe contemporary prophetic ministry is the same as we read from cover to cover in the Scriptures. It is the giving of a supernatural utterance inspired by the Holy Spirit, who gives the prophet the ability to actively declare the mind of Christ. Though not always crouched in the language, it is a gospel-centered declaration of what "thus saith" the Lord.

Interesting observation: I noticed there are over 700 views on this thread, but only one reply. That seems to be an awfully wide gap. Feedback welcomed!

:-)

Thanks for writing. I get what you are saying.

"Contemporary prophetic ministry." Don't flee over that. I'm just trying to be specific as possible in talking about the operation of the prophetic ministry in our generation. While there might be much today that would cause one to expel their lunch over in what happens in "prophetic" ministry, I have in mind here Biblical prophetic ministry. Not pop-culture extremes.

Regarding everything else you said though, I think you should go back to the Scriptures and wrestle more with what prophetic ministry is about. I think your notions are a bit "romantic."

While there is some truth to what you say, such doesn't apply very well across the board when put to the acid test of Scripture. For example, Biblically speaking, the prophets regularly identified themselves as prophets, just as Paul regularly identified himself as an apostle. And regarding seminary, Ezekiel was a priest before being sent into exile, and most certainly would've gone through the "seminary" of his day. So, while "seminary" in no way qualifies one, it in no way disqualifies one either. And if you study the Scriptures closely, you will also learn that there is some "formal" theological language used by its authors from time to time. Not everything was, "See the birds of the air!" Words like "propitiation" were just as abstract then as they are now.

And I always attempt to make things as plain as possible. The next few weeks in the high school Sunday school class, I'll be teaching on the gifts of the Spirit. And while I'll be especially sure to make things as plain as possible for those in the class, I am not going to shy away from educating them either, challenging their minds, and sometimes dropping $500 words. We shouldn't be frightened by big words and the abstract language of theology. While we don't need to overdose in the stuff, we don't need to shy away from it either.

It would seem that 1 Thessalonians 5:20 is a pertinent scripture to consider in light of this thread.

Indeed.

Neil wrote:

it's a God given gift, and it is also a heavy load, you could even call it a curse, because the lot of a prophet, is not shiny caddilacs, or nice suits, with those fancy head sets, and a beautiful church building, and conferences with other all too earnest "prophets".

AMEN.

The fact that this usually the case frightens people away from this ministry. Sad.

On the other hand you have those that appear the opposite of this and foretell 'events' with great pronouncements and you wonder. Many times it is couched in poetic language that flies over the top of ones head - especially those not inclined to the poetic, like me. I do not get it. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say. Be blunt. When God spoke through the prophets, the people understood what they said. Same with the apostles when they taught.

My understanding.

Interesting thread.

While poverty, rejection, and being alone are things that often accompany prophetic ministry, it should be noted that these things are the essence of prophetic ministry. The essence of prophetic ministry is speaking on behalf of Christ, from whom we have our prophetic ministry today.

And it should be noted that no matter how poor a contemporary prophet might be in America, even the poorest people in America are in the top 10% wealth of the world. And in a healthy local fellowship, rejection and isolation should not be something the prophet experiences much of. Indeed, in the New Testament, I see no prophet ever lacking for fellowship who is rightly joined to a local assembly of the saints.

And it should be noted that no matter how poor a contemporary prophet might be in America, even the poorest people in America are in the top 10% wealth of the world.

God bless you brother!
Lisa

In one sentence you just did away with all the poverty in America!!! Fabulous

No, not at all. There is poverty in America, and real poverty at that. I'm not in poverty, but I'm far from being middle class, let alone wealthy. I know how tough it is just to "make it" here in America, especially due to the very high standard of living our nation requires by law. But let's face it, death due to starvation or basic medical attention is a very rare thing here in America. Relatively speaking, even our homeless are doing better than many in the rest of the world.

I'm just trying to put everything in perspective, and put a check on any romantic notions individuals might have. Even the Leonard Ravenhill's of the church, for all their rejection, still made a decent "living" from "full-time ministry." A. W. Tozer, who was probably the greatest prophet in American history, carved out a comfortable living as the pastor of a "mega-church" in Chicago, and even sat on top of denominational boards. So, let's not make the prophetic ministry into something it is not.

*edited*

I see another problem with cessationism. Many churches say they believe in the gifts, but in reality do not allow them to be practised. There is just no time for anyone to speak in tongues or utter a prophesy and there is nothing in place to evaluate prophesy by a mature eldership.You are asked to speak it in private to the pastor. People then do not dare to utter prophesies because they sense an insecurity of the pastor and do not want to stick out.
Some pastors do not want their "order" to be jeopardized.

Pratising the gift is one thing, but you need a propper understanding and practise of eldership.
It can only work when there is a true body of Christ and not just a preacher with a seated audience.

Most of the time I see either unbridled (ab)use of the gifts ending in disorder or control that quenches the Spirit. Rarely have I experienced a church that got it right.

Pratising the gift is one thing, but you need a propper understanding and practise of eldership. It can only work when there is a true body of Christ and not just a preacher with a seated audience.

God bless

What narrowpath said.

Back to the OP; i've seldom heard the prophetic declaration of God's word these days. You know the sort that pricks your conscience and demands a response? Just heaps of 'nice', 'encouraging' sermons.

Will never forget the day i came across 'Reality in the Christian Life' here on SI. Blessed be God for that day!

You know the sort that pricks your conscience and demands a response?

As Art Katz used to say on a regular basis: the prophetic word is a word of requirement.

Amen.

King Jay, i would, will and do flee so far and so fast from the dung heap mound of what passes for "ministry" in America these days, you cant even see the back of my heels.

Well, I'm not talking about whatever cynical view you have of contemporary ministry. The subject matter at hand is about genuine contemporary prophetic ministry. I mentioned nothing about nice cars or any such thing. Why are you wanting to bring it up?

its funny..."romantic" huh? first time the notion of being hungry, alone, getting your hind quarters kicked, or your head caved in with stones, or chowing on locusts is termed "romantic"

I call it "romantic" because it's a highly idealized idea I think you would do well to abandon. It's not in accord with Biblical reality. It's a dream. A fiction. It's made up.

but worry not, if your the real thing, you'll get your chance.....very soon.

I have been a partaker of the sufferings of Christ. But it's not so much due to my ministry callings. It's more so just due to the fact that I am a Christian, and with being such, experience many tribulations. Not all is bad though.

less words, more Demonstration of Jesus IN us.

Between the scribe
who has read and the prophet who has seen, there is a
difference as wide as the sea.

Amen, I agree. I like to say the teacher is one who expounds on what God has said, and the prophet is one who speaks on what "thus saith" the Lord.

Eph 4:7-16
(7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
(10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And God gave... What he gave was a gift, a grace gift given according to the gift of Christ. It is God who gives the gift and the gift is in the form of a ministry calling on an individual. The individual has no choice in the matter other than the choice to obey or disobey the calling on his or her life. I did not choose to be a teacher. God put it in me as a gift to the body of Christ. I am a gift in the measure of the gift of Christ. The gift Christ gave was death and resurrection, salvation through complete sacrifice. As a husband I am to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. As a teacher I am called to lay down my life for the body to whom I am given. It is a grave responsibility and it is a death.

God gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. Paul routinely identified himself as Paul the apostle. It was not a title, as in APOSTLE PAUL or bishop so and so, or pastor Bob, but an identification of the gift that He was to the body, for that gift carries with it a certain identification. There are a whole host of prophets listed in the New Testament. They are identified as such in scripture by Paul. There are teachers and evangelists listed as well, by name and by calling. We do not seem to have a problem with a man calling himself Bob, the pastor of the XYZ church, or Harold, teacher of the Word, or George the evangelist. But let a man say, "I am Joe, and I am a prophet, or I am Frank, and I am an apostle.", and great consternation rises up in the body. I wonder why that is so? We have no Biblical basis for taking such a stance. In fact, all of New Testament scripture identifies apostles and prophets as freely as the other gifts. In fact, not one person in the entirety of scripture is ever identified as being a pastor outside of the general teaching of Paul in Eph. 4. Yet we call men pastor and identify with that gift more often in the church than any other gift. I wonder why this is so? Could it be that our ideas about how God structured the church have wandered from the Biblical teaching? I think possibly so.

As to people who love to be called prophet so and so, apostle so and so, pastor so and so, these you will always have with you. But there are true apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers who are dead men walking. They have given themselves totally and are walking in humility, fulfilling the gift that they are to the body of Christ. And like Moses who said, "I am the meekest man on the face of the earth", these people say with meekness and humility, "God has given me to the body as the gift of prophet to help bring the body into the kind of maturity that God desires."

Well said twayneb.

Interesting and thought-provoking OP and thread. One thought that came to mind has to do with the correct understanding of what prophecy is and looks like today. We know that many prophecies recorded in Scripture were in the form of foretelling future events. And there seem to be other types as well, such as pronouncing certain immediate judgments on certain people, such as Peter with Annanias and Saphira in Acts 5, and with Simon the magician in Acts 8, and Steven with the Pharisees in Acts 7, etc. These prophecies seem to have been a "clear" and "direct" Word from God throgh the prophet to the people.

But there are many who believe that today prophecy takes on the form of less "direct" exhortations or Spirit-anointed preaching or teaching. Those who prefer this view say that in 1Cor.14:1 Paul is exhorting us to desire to prophesy in this "less direct" manner. So prophesy in this case becomes more common, and can be found in many sermons or teachings we hear today. In this view the gifts of teaching, exhortation and prophecy can overlap a bit and sometimes the distiction is not that noticeable.

Do you believe that prophecy for today can take on both forms I mentioned?

Yes. I think it can take on both forms. Indeed, sometimes I think the most "prophetic" word is the one that doesn't just come out and say it. Consider John the Baptist. He never gave one "thus saith" that we know of, yet regarded as a prophet. Or consider contemporary prophets, such as an A. W. Tozer or Art Katz. To my knowledge, these men never gave one "thus saith," yet there is an unmistakable prophetic "quality" to their speech that causes you to realize you are hearing something more than just another "sermon."

As a side note, many who meet in small groups and endeavor to allow the gifts to flow in their meetings view prophecy in the second way I described. They say that the difference between prophecy and teaching is that teaching comes from preparing a message beforehand and prophecy is more extemporaneous or without preperation beforehand.

I have personally found that in my own ministry, the two gifts can often blend together and work in harmony together in the same message. Where one ends and the other begins, seems sometimes impossible to truly tell. Perhaps to some degree, that is why we read in Antioch that there were "prophets and teachers" there. And there several men are named, but no attempt is given by Luke to say which man was what. Perhaps they just all seemed to flow together in an almost seemless fashion? As if their were a Divine fluidity of the gifts within that local body.

Amen J.

Hi all,
Just reading this post and I remembered a study I did along time ago.
Their are three places in the new testement that mentions gifts in one form or the other.As I remember all were in the context of Unity.Also Unity is not mentioned unless gifts are also mentioned.Which could be a coincidence,more like a God coincidence.
What I mean is that it would be very hard to have any workable unity without the gifts being in operation.
Just a thought,Staff

There are times, I believe, when a NT prophet can be given something for the body that speaks to future events. Did not Agabus speak to Paul's soon coming capture in Jerusalem? But I think the distinction between prophet and a believer operating in the spiritual gift of prophecy is this.

A prophet is called to be that gift to the body. Thus God will burden the prophet with things that pertain to, primarily, the local part of the body where that person serves. This person is given insight by God into the current spiritual condition of the body and often uses the prophet to set the body on the right spiritual course. Sometimes this comes in the form of rebuke, sometimes direction, but always from a unique spiritual perspective with which God graces the prophet. As a teacher God often graces me with an ability to understand and communicate the word that I know is simply supernatural. Things come to me and out of me that I listen to almost as a bystander thinking, "Where did that come from?", because I know it is simply not in my intellect to go there. God uses me way beyond myself, and I know it full well. I am just not that smart, and I know it. It is only the gift operating through me. It is totally His grace and His ability supernaturally, and it is humbling. It is the same with the prophet, but in the realm of spiritual understanding of the heart and thoughts of God toward His people.

Prophecy on the other hand is much like the word of wisdom or word of knowledge. It is given so that we as spirit filled believers can minister from the heart of God to someone. I am not a prophet, but I have been given a word of prophecy for another believer. I did not foretell the future, nor did I give directive instructions, but rather it was a word that edified and built up. Yet in the midst of this was also knowledge given that I could not have known but for the Spirit of God. I have had this operate as I stood before someone to pray for them and God told me what they needed prayer for. I have asked them, and the word I received from God was 100% correct. This showed the person that God was truly concerned with their need and gave me direction as to how to pray correctly for them. Both of us were edified by it. This example somewhat blends word of knowledge and prophecy, but I think those lines get blurred pretty easily anyway and both may operate simultaneously.

I am very familiar with this distinction, between the ministry or "office" of a prophet, verses somebody who just has the "gift" of prophecy. However, Biblically speaking, I think such a distinction in the Scriptures is wanting. Especially considering 1 Corinthians 14:23-33, where Paul equates one who prophesies with being a prophet.

There are other instances of this as well. Such as when the Spirit of the Lord fell on the seventy elders of Israel, and they prophesied. Moses said, "Oh that all the Lord's people would be prophets." And when the Spirit of the Lord also moved on king Saul so that he prophesied, the people said, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

So far as I've studied it out in Scripture, to operate in the gift of prophecy is to be equated with being a prophet.

I welcome any additional insight into this matter.

Hi Brother Jimmy. Yes, I do see a very strong distinction between the 9 gifts in the earlier part of 1Corth12 and the 5 callings of Eph 4 and these latter verses in 1Corth12 -

Contextually this doesn't make sense, and I don't see Paul making these rigid distinctions here "clearly" as you and some others often say.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 12, Paul talks about prophets and prophesying, all within the same breath, and tying the two terms into the concept of the body being composed of a variety of members. Likewise, the same pattern is repeated in 1 Corinthians 14, where no distinction is made between a prophet and one who prophesies. Nor is any contrast shown whatsoever, so far as I can see, between the list we see mentioned in Ephesians 4 and the lists found here.

I've read a bit on this topic, but to date, I've yet to see anybody show on a close scrutiny of the text a difference between a so called ministry gift and ministry office/calling. Again, I recognize the popularity of this doctrine, and understand the appeal. and I'm almost inclined to agree with it. But I've yet to see the so-called "proof in the pudding," or in this case, the text itself. :-)

Blessings.

King Jimmy de young said,

"I believe contemporary prophetic ministry is the same as we read from cover to cover in the Scriptures. It is the giving of a supernatural utterance inspired by the Holy Spirit, who gives the prophet the ability to actively declare the mind of Christ. Though not always crouched in the language, it is a gospel-centered declaration of what "thus saith" the Lord."

My question is:

Has anyone recorded,either audibly or scribally,those utterances by those "prophets" as they've declared "thus saith" the lord?

If not,why not?

If some would be called to this ministry,with the mass printing capabilities we now have in this modern age,just think of how many copies of Holy Books could be made available to the multitudes in our generation who are hungering and thirsting for new revelation.

WOW! Doesn't that sound sensational.

The Romans and the Catholics would be just thrilled!

Not to mention the mixed multitude.
Matthew 16:4;12:39,Mark 8:12,1 Cor. 1:22

Hey!...someone or something is at work here.

The Nobility have been and are searching I trust.

His peopled are Blessed in Christ.

Be blessed people of God,

And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise--in your hearts; this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition, for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Has anyone recorded,either audibly or scribally,those utterances by those "prophets" as they've declared "thus saith" the lord?

If not,why not?

I'm sure they've been recorded. Though, perhaps not as frequently as we record Sunday school lessons and the typical Sunday morning sermon. But, there is no more need to record them than we do the typical Sunday school lesson or sermon. At its essence, prophecy is just another way in which the gospel is declared.

If some would be called to this ministry,with the mass printing capabilities we now have in this modern age,just think of how many copies of Holy Books could be made available to the multitudes in our generation who are hungering and thirsting for new revelation.

If you would re-read my original posting, you would see I discount altogether the notion that the primary purpose of the gift of prophecy has been that of writing sacred Scripture. Indeed, the writing of Scripture was secondary in purpose to the gift, historically speaking. The fact of the matter is that most prophetic utterances ever given through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit made it into Scripture.

And I spoke nothing of there being new revelation. We have already in the Scriptures the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.

And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise--in your hearts; this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition, for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Indeed, we do have a more sure word of prophecy. And that word was confirmed in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, when the Word of God was made flesh.

The proof in the pudding is in the "life" of the one called to the ministries of an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, but as great as this sounds, I would like to see the Scriptural justification for the disnction you are making. So far, I just don't see it in the texts cited. Specifically, what in the texts makes this distinction?

Compare the young sister giving a message during a service in tongues and also interpreting --- could you compare her to say, an Art Katz or a Tozer?

There is a difference between being an elder in the faith and a novice, this is true. And we should all strive to press on to Christian maturity. But this mark of maturity doesn't cause one to "graduate" (for lack of better term) from "gifting" to "office." For example, I believe I am personally pretty close to being a "mature" brother in the Lord. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm getting there.

However, in regard to the callings God has placed on my life, I have had those in full from the moment God filled me with the Spirit and called me into the "five-fold." Indeed, sometimes the gifting and calling have made others assume I am personally more mature in my faith than I actually have been. Some have assumed because of my charismatic display of the gifts of the Spirit that I had all the accompanying fruit, and have tried to encourage me to step out into ministry that I know from a maturity level, I should not even touch yet. The disparity has grieved me at times, but at other times, it causes me to be full of awe in the Lord, that some of the things I have said have actually issued out of a nobody like me.

I'm still growing, and long to be as Katz used to say, "the thing in itself." And while I do self-regulate how involved I get because of my maturity level, that still doesn't keep me from functioning in those five-fold ministries just the same. And truth be told, I don't feel I can escape such. I feel in the Spirit that those gifts are always with me, and I always feel, "on" in the Lord to perform whatever task He gives me when He so moves.

Just my thoughts :-)

kingjimmy wrote:
So far as I've studied it out in Scripture, to operate in the gift of prophecy is to be equated with being a prophet.

But if we follow this to its logical conclusion that every person who has the gift of prophecy is a prophet, then today, we have a tremendous amount of prophets running around; but we both know that this is simply not the case.

But this is just my mere opinion! God bless you,
Lisa

Maybe to someone who prophesy’s and secretly wants to be a prophet!!

No. That's just my honest conclusion based off my study of the Scriptures.

But if we follow this to its logical conclusion that every person who has the gift of prophecy is a prophet, then today, we have a tremendous amount of prophets running around;

And what would be the problem with that? I never saw a Scripture that says we should have a limited number of prophets within the Church. Indeed, the expectation of Joel 2:28-32 is that the prophetic ministry of the last days be a common phenomenon.

Blessings.

there is nowhere in the Ephesians 4 account that says that you can 'covet' any one of the 5 ministerial callings

An argument from silence isn't a very convincing one, especially consdiering the widely stated purpose for these ministries and their purpose for the Church. The argument you are making assumes that the "five-fold" ministries of Ephesians 4 are distinct from 1 Corinthians 12. This dichotomy keeps being re-asserted. But I've yet to see it be proven through Scripture. And considering the purposes of Ephesians 4 are the same as 1 Cor 12, I'm all the more skeptical.

Lysa wrote:
Maybe to someone who prophesy’s and secretly wants to be a prophet!!

KingJimmy responded:
No. That's just my honest conclusion based off my study of the Scriptures.

“So far, I just don't see it in the texts cited. Specifically, what in the texts makes this distinction?”

Taking the verse of Paul speaking of both in the same breath completely off the table, what other Scripture(s) support this position? I’m honestly asking for more references.

God bless,
Lisa

(edited for clarity)

I feel we should all be hearing from God, and speaking His word, not just because we've read scripture, but because we know Him. I think this is what Paul is getting at, although I can't make an argument from scripture to support it

Amen. We should all, regardless of our calling or gifting, have a "prophetic" quality to our lives that simply issues out of walking with the Lord and being filled with His resurrection life. That was really the point of Pentecost, was it not? To make the people of God a sort of "community of prophets" in essence.

Could it be that your conclusion is wrong? Jus askin’

LOL. Yes. Isn't that what we are talking about? :-) I'm totally for embracing this position if it is Biblical. And I'm inclined to agree with it. BUT, I've still yet to find the Scriptural justification for this position. Especially considering Paul calls those who prophesy in Corinthians prophets. So, with great reluctance, I can't accept the position as true.

Taking the verse of Paul speaking of both in the same breath completely off the table, what other Scripture(s) support this position? I’m honestly asking for more references

Well, being that Romans 12, 1 Cor 12-14, and Ephesians 4 are the primary chapters that talk specifically to the topic of giftings & ministry, there aren't any other chapters in the New Testament that take up the topic at length. Mostly random verses here and there.

I did mention the Old testament in regard to the seventy elders of Israel and king Saul. They prophesied and were considered prophets for doing such. Deuteronomy 13 and 18 are major writings on the topic of prophetic ministry, and they make no distinction between somebody who randomly prophesies and somebody who has a ministry of a prophet. They are viewed at as one in the same.

So, seeing how both testaments seem to draw this same conclusion, that those who prophesy are prophets, I cannot help but conclude the same thing. I've yet to find anywhere that says those who prophesy aren't regarded as prophets. This seems to be a popular charismatic teaching, that doesn't quite hold up to the acid test of Scripture. And in my observation, those who have promoted this distinction the loudest are suspect in my estimation. Of course, not all who hold such a view are such. But I have serious nagging doubts as to this view being one in keeping with Scripture.

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
If Paul wanted ALL in Corinth to 'prophesy' and told them to 'covet' that - there is nowhere in the Ephesians 4 account that says that you can 'covet' any one of the 5 ministerial callings -- you can't 'covet' to be an apostle, pastor, teacher, evangelist nor prophet - you are either Called of GOD to those ministry offices or ........ that answers it for most of us noncesstationists.

It's a "life" - not an event.

They have said, "If I knew this was the life that God was calling me to, I might have flinched and never accepted it." And all this spoken in their "healthy" churches. It is a life, not an event.

And I must say that looking back at their life... it has resembled MORE of what Natan4Jesus has described than what KingJimmy has described.

God bless,
Lisa

Do you appreciate Leonard Ravenhill's thoughts on this topic at all? His "picture of a prophet" ?
Sorry, I'm sighing in spirit now, but will drop it here.

Sure. Sometimes I think his depiction of the prophet is a bit romantic though. They are good thoughts just the same.

The two people I would personally consider to be a prophet have never declared themselves to be prophets!

There is little need to. But if they do, such is totally in keeping with the practice of the Scriptures from cover to cover. I know people might kick and scream over such a practice, and acting spiritual, decry it as unscriptural. They might see it as somehow contrary to humility. But I would dare say it takes more humility to say one is a prophet, if one actually is, than to try and hide what God has called them as under a bushel.

And I must say that looking back at their life... it has resembled MORE of what Natan4Jesus has described than what KingJimmy has described.

I've been mostly concerned to talk about the prophetic function itself, not the "life" of the people who are called to such a ministry. I've wanted this thread to be more about why we should believe in the continuation of the gift in our day. Indeed, sometimes I worry that the issue of the prophetic "life," is somehow made to be something beyond the normal Christian life. As if it were another animal altogether. My hopes is that a prophet will be like Christ, just as my hope is that every Christian will be like Christ.

Well, i don't totally understand how this thread evolved into its present state [having read through all the posts] but i definitely appreciate the Christ-like tone of Jimmy's responses.

Blessed be God.

Brother, I love Leonard Ravenhill greatly. I cherish him as a father of the faith. He changed my life through his ministry, and I'm forever grateful. But I'm also reflective. And having listened to hundreds of his sermons and having read every book, I think I'm able to give serious critical thought regarding him. And out of such it isn't very hard to see Ravenhill was a bit of a romantic who had a tendency to be a little melodramatic and over the top from time to time. He was attracted to and often promoted things which were sensational. Ravenhill had much right, but some things he was wrong in. Which is why, I believe, in his twilight years he was in the fellowship of "prophets" such as Paul Cain. Indeed, he was caught up with many of the very men I believe he warned us about. Why? Because they were sensational, and seemed to be something of what he longed for in the church.

Just my thoughts. This is no slam against Ravenhill. But let's be real. Just because Ravenhill said it doesn't mean it was so.

Duplicate post removed

Brother Travis, in my post, pg 2 - after reading yours - I see that these were addressed by their callings by others. My reasoning is - that a man/woman must be 'proved' as such first, rather than announcing their own calling themselves.

There is no NT example of someone arriving on the scene and proclaiming themselves to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher. God worked through mature leadership to ordain these gifts as well as to ordain eldership over local bodies. Mature leadership, usually existing apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, recognizes the calling and listens to God for the time of releasing that particular gift into the body to function under the full mantle of the calling.

Actually, one can very easily say that anyone who operates in any level of the prophetic gifts, whether a prophet or simply a believer being used of God in the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, or word of prophecy, or tongues and interpretation is participating in the "prophetic ministry". This terminology has really come to mean "ministry of the Holy Spirit" in many circles. This term does not mean that one is a prophet.

Quote: kingjimmy wrote: So far as I've studied it out in Scripture, to operate in the gift of prophecy is to be equated with being a prophet. Maybe to someone who prophesy’s and secretly wants to be a prophet!! But if we follow this to its logical conclusion that every person who has the gift of prophecy is a prophet, then today, we have a tremendous amount of prophets running around; but we both know that this is simply not the case. But this is just my mere opinion! God bless you, Lisa

I would have to agree with Lisa here. All prophets will prophecy. Not all who prophecy are prophets for there is a gift of prophecy that operates through the lives of believers as the Spirit wills. People who prophecy "do" while prophets "are". Philip the evangelist had four young daughters that did prophecy, but scripture does not identify them as prophets. If one wants to use the term "prophet" to mean "anyone who speaks a word of prophecy" then we can say that all believers who are filled with the Holy Spirit and who have at any time been used in one of the revelation gifts are prophets. I believe this is the context of 1 Cor.. Paul calls them prophets because they are prophesying. This does not mean they were given to the body in the grace gift of a prophet in the sense of Eph. 4. I don't think we can define the gift of prophet this loosely. Prophet is a particular grace gift given to the body. To define it loosely would be to say that anyone who ever teaches is a teacher, or anyone who ever witnesses to the lost is an evangelist. It is a bit like what might happen if I do a good job of baking a cake. One might say I am a great baker, but that does not mean that they are saying that I own a bakery and make cakes for a living.

Jimmy, at this point, I am constrianed to say that what you are promoting here is plain and simply heresy

Brother, I am sure you mean well in this post. But let me just say that I think if you take some time to further reflect on this statement, and pray about it, you might want to reconsider it.

Is the idea that people who prophesy are prophets really worthy of the label "heresy?"

Perhaps that word means something to you other than what it traditionally means. I generally reserve that word for people who teach errors so gross that they undermine the basic tenants of the Christian faith, or for brothers who are so divisive that they can't get along with other Christians at all. But if you really believe I am a heretic for believing such a simple idea, then, well, feel free in the Lord to believe it if you so wish.

I believe better things for you than this.

what you blithely term "melodramatic" might just be a guy being real, authentic, letting it all hang out

And I consider that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against passionate displays of zeal, and sometimes doing things that were a bit over the top. Nor am I against hyperbolic verbage. I myself have had a money changers in the Temple experience, and was quickly blacklisted by a "state bishop" in a denomination I was involved with previously. Throwing a handful of money at a denominational official during a state-wide service in front of over 100 other pastors from around the area will do that sorta thing to you.

But with all that said, there were times Ravenhill was just flat wrong in what he said. Saying it zealously, pointedly, and with clever plays on words doesn't make him right just because he's Leonard Ravenhill. At the end of the day we must ask, did the oracle speak according to the Law and the Testimony? If it does not add up line upon line and precept upon precept, then it does not pass the smell test. As Tozer said, if an angel from heaven, with a wingspan the size of a jet, were to come to earth and give him some grand revelation, Tozer would ask him for "chapter and verse." And if he could not provide him one, Tozer would bid him farewell.

I think Ravenhill would have agreed to this. Indeed, one brother that frequents Sermon Index met Ravenhill as an elderly genteleman, and if memory serves correct, Ravenhill exhorted the guy to make sure he tests everything. The Scriptures do this too.

i just got a wee bit excited when you used the adjective for me and Len in the same thread.."romantic"...th'asall

If you want excitment, I'm one of the street preachers on that old "Street Meetings of God" compilation put out a few years ago by Fire at the Altar. When they put me on a CD compilation with Leonard Ravenhill, that brought many tears to my eyes. It still does.

There is no NT example of someone arriving on the scene and proclaiming themselves to be an apostle

Well, they didn't arrive on the scene to preach themselves. As the apostle Paul said, "We preach Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your bond servants." They saw to make Christ known above all other things. But, Paul did not hesitate to make his apostleship known at the start of each of his letters, and semi-regularly throughout. Indeed, much of 2 Corinthians is spent talking about the continued validity of his apostolic ministry amongst the Corinthians in light of some "super apostles" who arrived on scene to challenge his "authority" to minister in that city.

I would take Ravenhill or Tozer any day over scribes.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

We need both prophets and scribes.

Yes, what you've posted is heresy.

I've asked many times for somebody to show me how describing individuals who prophesy as prophets... which is something Paul does in 1 Corinthians 14 is wrong. I am told it is wrong. But I've yet to be shown how. So, if you can show me clearly through the Scriptures how what I said is improper, I will gladly change my mind. Indeed, as I have said, I am inclined to agree with the lot of you who keep telling me I am in error.

I don't think though, you really took much time to think this through. Pray about it and come back tomorrow.

Really? It is hersey to call people who prophesy, prophets?

That's a bit much for my tastes brother. Perhaps I'm just mistaken?

I know it is a little strange to quote yourself, but permit me to do such from my original post:

I believe there is one major reason alone why we should reject any partial or total cessationist theologies. And that reason is central to all of the Scriptures. We should reject cessationist theologies because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a contemporary, modern-day prophet. Indeed, Hebrews 1 reminds us that God has in these last days spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ, as a modern-day living prophet, is still carrying out His prophetic ministry that began 2,000 years ago in Judea. The Lord has not grown silent just because the canon of Scriptures is complete. Jesus Christ is still speaking on behalf of God today.

Now brothers and sisters, as I sit here and reflect upon this thread and the direction it is taken, I am a bit grieved to see that my main thesis quoted here was totally ignored. I wrote this original post to make much about Christ. But so far as I can see, even among some of you who think themselves to be prophets or some of you who say you know prophets, you totally missed this.

But this quote is everything! To miss it is to miss everything. Instead much talk was made about things that were further down the line in importance. Things that weren't even secondary!

If you want something that was prophetic, I promise you this quote is. But this was ignored for lesser things. If you want to know something about the prophetic, the prophet is one who makes much about Christ. He doesn't make much about his sufferings, his poverty, or how lonely he is. He doesn't make much to do about titles. He makes much to do about Christ. For all of those things are nothing in comparison to the glory found in Him.

Might I be so bold as to say, shame on us for forgetting this central thing.

You wrote this and the thought is good, so what you meant to say is, "shame on you" not "us", because you haven't forgotten what you yourself have written, but you feel we've missed something about our Saviour.

I got caught up in it a little myself. There is plenty of shame in it for me. :-)

For those of you who might be interested, I spoke on this topic elsewhere once. This teaching was a much more in-depth look at what I think about the prophetic in general.

False Prophets and the Testimony of Jesus - http://iamadisciple.com/sermons/falseprophets.mp3

1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Charity is Christ, rather the Love of Christ. He is our love feast and the Lover of the Body of Christ.

26. agape
Search for G26 in KJVSL
agaph agape ag-ah'-pay
from 25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:--(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love.

Search for G25 in KJVSL
agapaw agapao ag-ap-ah'-o
perhaps from agan (much) (or compare 5689); to love (in a social or moral sense):--(be-)love(-ed). Compare 5368.

He is the One that makes our love perfect as He is by His born again Spirit of the Father, the Seed of the Father in us. The Holy Spirit working with all power and as The Holy Spirit wills to work these Gifts of the Gifted One Himself in us, come forth in us and through us. Our Teacher of Christ, He is the One that severely divides the Gifts of Himself for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ His Church.

All the gifts of the Spirit without the Spirit of Christ the Gifted One Himself, we are nothing, and the only Gifted One the Father Trusts is His Son. He that is in us brings forth the gifts by His working in us mightily and the Holy Spirit distributing these gifts as He will.

On my own I am as a child and speak and work as a child.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

There is never "in part when it comes to the gifted One Himself, He is perfect and He has come. He is in the believer and has brought the Father to make their abode with us and the Father has given the Holy Spirit whom Jesus Christ has baptized us into.

Is He Come? "It is no longer I who live but Christ who liveth in me". This is our hope of Glory, which is Christ in you.

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I am not a prophet, I don't prophesy, I don't have the gift of Prophecy. The Only True and trusted Prophet is Jesus Christ and He liveth in me, and the Holy Spirit if He wills, I will be a Prophet in His timing, I will prophesy in His will, I will be used of the Holy Spirit of the Only True Prophet and gifted One the Father has given us for the upbuilding of the Church, Jesus Christ the Gifted One.

This is my labor in the gifts, doing according to His working in me.

Colossians 1:28-29 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1 Corinthians 12:4-12 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Who's work and one body are we members of? SO also is Christ.

In Him the Gifted One: Phillip

Lysa wrote:
But if we follow this to its logical conclusion that every person who has the gift of prophecy is a prophet, then today, we have a tremendous amount of prophets running around;

KingJimmy responded:
And what would be the problem with that? I never saw a Scripture that says we should have a limited number of prophets within the Church. Indeed, the expectation of Joel 2:28-32 is that the prophetic ministry of the last days be a common phenomenon.

Bro, I'm getting caught up on posts. Please forgive me being a couple of pages behind.

I wasn’t complaining about limiting the number of prophets. What I tried to say was “if everyone who prophesied “IS” a prophet then there SHOULD be a crazy amount of prophets running around today;” which there isn’t – only a crazy amount of false prophets! Jimmy, I don’t have a problem with the amount of prophets that God wants to bless this world with.

AND I realize I don’t know much but one thing I DO know that it takes more to being a prophet than just prophesying.

God bless you,
Lisa

Take your time on getting caught up. A lot happened yesterday to say the least. lol

I wasn’t complaining about limiting the number of prophets. What I tried to say was “if everyone who prophesied “IS” a prophet then there SHOULD be a crazy amount of prophets running around today;” which there isn’t – only a crazy amount of false prophets! Jimmy, I don’t have a problem with the amount of prophets that God wants to bless this world with.

Good. :-)

AND I realize I don’t know much but one thing I DO know that it takes more to being a prophet than just prophesying.

I agree. As R.H. Robinson (?) once said, "God doesn't want to just give messages, he wants to make messengers." I like to think that when a prophet prophesies, they to some degree embody the message they deliver. "The thing in itself," as Katz used to say. A word made flesh.