music (debate)

Here for those that wish to continue to debate this 'issue' But I will remind you to avoid senseless arguments that end up going in circles because the arguments are based off of personal preference. Thanks

God Bless,
Matthew

What about Starfield?
What about Chris Tomlin?
What about Audio Adrenaline?

Tell me what you think, if you are familiar with their music and lyrics, their life styles, maybe even their theology?

Not familiar with Starfield but I enjoy listening to Chris Tomlin and Audio Adrenaline. I don't know much about their theology or their lifestyles but they produce Godly music that has encouraged my walk with the Lord. What are your thoughts?

Not familiar with Starfield but I enjoy listening to Chris Tomlin and Audio Adrenaline. I don't know much about their theology or their lifestyles but they produce Godly music that has encouraged my walk with the Lord. What are your thoughts?

I agree with you, even some of the harder stuff (which is what I would listen to in my younger days not so much now as I use to) but these are the types of songs that would keep conviction before me and eventually back to the Lord Jesus Christ. But somehow they are satanic works of the devil and proud and boastful. They brought humility to my heart by constantly making me face the truth.

What I find interesting is there are many points to the past of John Wesley etc. One I would point to is the Church of Christ who believe musical instruments should not be allowed in a church building because(and this is the most common reasoning)Instruments were made by men and so are evil and not glorifying to God in worship. Where does this thought come from? Well many pull it not from Scripture but from their ancestors who believed this and when instruments were first used to sing praises to God OH BOY so many stones thrown in the "Name of the Lord" on the account of religion.

hi, as i am old and used to music from my age(jazz,r&b,classical etc.)i have a severe prejudice against rap or heavy metal etc.and if asked would still not condemn the music? only eight notes with different rythms and talent;or lack. it is all learned behavior. if you go to latin america the music has a latino flair.gee wiz.jimp it is all in the message.

"i am old and used to music from my age(jazz,r&b,classical etc.)i have a severe prejudice against rap or heavy metal etc."

And if my memory serves me correctly Jazz, R&B and Classical all faced the same prejudices of their days. Many people were at first reluctant to accept the new sounds. Even Southern Gospel music faced this as many labeled it as Soulish and worldly and to connected to the secular Jazz and R&B of its time. Funny how the world works and history repeats itself many a time.

Matthew,

If it is all about lyrics, why do you not modify the sound so it would not be offensive to those who have convictions against it? Yes, it is conviction, brother. Not opinion.

I wish I were able to post something here that might help or be useful to this thread in one way or the other, but I can't. My music roots go way back into the secular world, and to be honest with you all, I have carried the same type "not lyrical" wise into my new life in Christ. I grew up on C&W being from Texas, but @59 I also was in the Hippie/Flower Child generation, so it carried me away from the C&W on into the Rock world, Back then Jesus was mentioned in a lot of songs lyrics, for example the Doobie Brothers "Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah Jesus, he's my friend; Jesus, he's my friend He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land Jesus, he's my friend". As a child that was forced to go to Church "every" Sunday, I thought this is cool, now I can listen to some good Rock that mentions Jesus and also get away from the depressing C&W stuff, and it also help me enjoy Church more, "please don't ask why" you would have had to been there and lived it, but it did. I still Love Rock music and even "some" C&W now, and to be honest with you, I don't listen to a lot of Christian tunes, but I do like Michael W. Smith and also Stryper, yea I know I am from one extreme to the other, but it's what I enjoy, it gives me the best of both worlds in my music life. Look I am just humbling myself here,and being very honest and truthful with you all, please don't pounce on me and preach to me, I know right from wrong as most all of us here probably do, it's just I am not perfected in my walk yet. I do Love the Lord more than ever and my Spiritual walk is closer than ever, but I will let God mold me and shape me as I move along in my travels not man, because I don't know ahead how he might use me, If he uses me to minister or witness to folks that Love Rock music, I have to know where they are coming from to let Jesus Christ work through me to help take them were God wants them. I love every one, as God has instructed me to do, and I am very happy that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my life many years ago, but the saddest part about my new life, is seeing how the unsaved and secular see us Christians, and I am sure you know what most of them are. Some of us are the most Judgmental folks on earth, we try and appear like we are perfect, and so self righteous, and a lot of us have forgotten were we come from, and if you need to know something just ask any Christian they have all the answers and if not they will have a bias opinion. I know a lot of you are going "WHAT!" look I run a service company, I am in the secular world everyday, and I get the feedback first hand and I am just passing it along rather you agree or not. These lyrics say it best for me "If you could see What I once was If u could go with me Back to where I started from Then, I know you would see A miracle of Love that put me in it's sweet embrace and made me what I am today just an old sinner
Saved by grace.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

I wouldn't modify the sound for your convictions because the sound of the music is staying true to my convictions. NOW if you and I were having fellowship I wouldn't say hey music would be nice and crank on Heavy Metal Christian Rock because I wouldn't want to infringe on your rights and it wouldn't be curtious to do. I would rather give up my libery around you than have my music and offend you. Just like the Gentile Christian who ate the meat offered to idols.

NOW if you decided to go to a Christian gathering knowing they may play music that was against your convictions and you went any way if they played it would be a sin against your own conviction and no one at the meeting would be in the wrong. I have a friend that is a Church of Christ goer and they believe in no instruments, in the past he has decided to come to my church who uses instruments and He doesn't get offended or upset why because its what he expected when he decided to go.

I have a deep respect for you sister and I believe there are many factors to consider, its okay that we have different convictions on this matter as long as it doesn't send disunity to the body.

Why do I listen to the style of music that I do? because for ME its relaxing and brings encouragement, correction, and conviction to my heart. It personally brings me closer to the Lord, IF it does this for me then is it wrong and ungodly? Our God is a God of Variety and it wouldn't be that big of a strech to say His People will have just as much Variety ALL Unified not necessarily in the genre of music BUT in the Person that Genre is seeking to Glorify and Bring Honor to.

.

JB1968, Narrowpath, Lasttimes, GinnyRose,whoever else is interested..

OK... so you are right. It is not about the lyrical content of a song - it is about one "style" being "Godly" and other types being "ungodly".

For example. I play the hymn "Amazing Grace" in 3/4 time and in the key of G if a guitar is used..although lots of guys will go to the key of D depending on the vocal range of the one leading the song. This MUST STOP! Half of all the , "Cheat on my wife and go get sloppy drunk" tavern songs in the world are set to the same 3/4 time and key of G or D. That proves that the hymn "Amazing Grace" can't be from God..because the lyrical content does not matter..it's about the musical style...that's what you said..right?

How much like the world must we get..it is sin..that's what you said...right?

I know for certain that perhaps 45 plus of the great hymns of the church must immediately be stopped being sung because Wesley, Luther, and many more composers simply "stole" the melody from the drunken singing songs of the day..which of course by your own admission proves they are of the devil... because the lyrical content doesn't matter..it is the "style" as you pointed out..right?

Since they were using the devils time signature in Amazing Grace (3/4) and his keys (G and D) then we MUST quit using it! We must quit using all hymns because many have a connection with that horrid ungodly style they are taken from! It's about the style REGUARDLESS OF LYRICAL CONTENT...That's what you told us..right?

In fact to be safe we better not use any hymnns because of the "style"..so many of them are written straight from the devils drunken adulterous promoting style.. better to avoid them altogether than to cause a brother to stumble.. that's what you said...right?

GinnyRose..you seem like a wonderful lady. Your posts remind me a great deal of my grandmothers way of speaking. I miss her. Anyway...you stated,

If it is all about lyrics, why do you not modify the sound so it would not be offensive to those who have convictions against it? Yes, it is conviction, brother. Not opinion.

Since it is clear that many of the hymns melodies, time signatures, and keys have been take directly from the drunken adultery promoting songs in the bars and taverns they are obviously offensive to many of us. You said that the sound should be changed so as not to be offensive to us. You will take the lead on changing those offensive and boring hymnn styles into something much more loud and rocky so that they will no longer offend us. The hymnns as they are written are quite offensive to many of us so in your own words they must be changed..right?
That is exactly what you said to do...right?

You guys are all correct..lyrical content doesn't matter.. is about the style... and we MUST be rid of this cheap drunken tavern honoring style that we sing so often.

I tried to tell some friends of mine that the style of the hymns did not matter... that the incredible lyrics of the hymnns was what made them wonderful. However...you have shown me otherwise. It is about the style. My friends said they could, "Tell in their spirit" that those hymnns were written in an evil style and if I was sensitive I could sense it to..if I was only as mature as they were. Funny...that was exactly what you said about other styles as well. Anyway...they were right as are you. These awful hymnns and their ungodly lifestyle repoducing musical styles must be stopped!

Thank you for opening my eyes to the evils of singing the hymnns in those horrid ungodly styles...I owe you much!

Wow. Go easy with the sarcasm there Solomon.

Concerning the debate at hand, here are my thoughts on it. God created mountains and valleys, snow and streams. All of these things are incredibly beautiful, but I wouldn't necessarily call them godly or holy, even though God made them. A lot of people do see them as holy and worship them. I think it's the same with music and art in general. We want to label it as godly or ungodly at first glance. Why does it have to be one or the other? For some it's only going to be background noise. For others it may be a source of wisdom in an otherwise godless existance. Still for others it is a scourge to society. The same can be said of the beach. I love the beach. I love the sun, the sand, the waves and the salty feeling on my skin on the way home. In fact, one of my favorite things when I was younger was driving home from the beach. I would roll down the windows and crank up the AC as cold as I could get it. I loved the way the warm breeze mixed with the cold AC on my salty face and arms. Then I got married and tried that with my wife and she thought I was crazy. She hated it.

I say all that to say that we feel that when we become Christians we will all be the same. We forget that God made us all different on purpose. He doesn't want us to all be the same. He wants us to love Him with all of our heart mind soul and strength. That's going to look very different for some people. For some that expression is one of excitement and intensity based on life experience. For another it is a gentle and serene sort of expression. To judge another Christian's expression of their love of God is to judge their soul. I don't think that's a great idea.

If we don't like a style of music, fine. But to label it as evil is to risk offending God. We better be real sure that a particular style isn't a sound that God planted in the person creating it. Finally, God created possums and they are ugly, however they are not evil.

Well it is actually more n response to the entries made on the music thread located here-

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37994&forum=35&79

As far as content... well it seems they are right. It is all about the musical style... not the content of the lyrics. They have made a point. A strong a valid one..as all can see. I am sure they will then apply their point in all situations. To not apply the same standard of judgement to ones personal musical preferences as with which you judge another would be....let's see now....what is that word when you do not judge your own ways in the same manner in which you judge anothers....hmmm....what is that word??

Since it is clear that many of the hymns melodies, time signatures, and keys have been take directly from the drunken adultery promoting songs in the bars and taverns

This argument has been used to justify the use of Rock music by its proponents. However, I have also been told this argument is a lie. I first read this in an article published by "Christianity Today" magazine years ago. Now if I could find it I would - I likely have it somewhere since I have over 20 years worth of CT magazines.

Solomon, may I suggest that your ire against me and others is quite alarming. It sounds as though you know it is wrong, that the Holy Spirit had convicted you of it but you spurned that conviction. Now when some of us repeat what you know in your spirit to be wrong, you get all upset.

Regardless what we say, you will have to give account as all of us will.

OK... so you are right. It is not about the lyrical content of a song - it is about one "style" being "Godly" and other types being "ungodly".

I admire you for admitting this.

Solomon, please bear with me a bit more.

Are you aware of the history of modern rock music? Do you want to know it?

Elvis Presley is considered the father of rock. He was a Pentecostal kid that learned to sing at his childhood church at Tupelo, MS - just up the road a ways from where we live. As he advanced in his music career, secular TV stations would not televise his entire body while performing because they considered his body language vulgar. This should not be surprising because "Rock and Roll" is the ghetto term for sex. And he is considered the father of it.

And Christians like to music with such evil connotations?

Amen, Ginnyrose. How about some more Scripture:

Col 3:15-17
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

We all know what Psalms and hymns are. I'm sure spiritual songs do not include the debasing fleshy rock music. The music itself tends to debase and not to uplift.

Here are some more scriptures:

1John 2:15-17: NASB:
15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

1Thessalonians 5:21-22 KJV
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

.

I am still amazed at the continuence of many to say that one musical style is "of the world" and that their preferred style is "Godly".

Simply answer these concerns of mine of you would be so kind.....

There have been several scriptures posted..that have no actual application to this discussion..but none the less they were posted. In a nutshell they all said to avoid looking or acting like the world. Then that is taken to mean that since they beleive all music not in their preferred style is of the world then it is evil. Well throw solid hermeneutics and exegesis of scripture out the window! But be that as it may. At least be honest enough to apply your own standard to yourselves!

In the example given of "Amazing Grace"- it is normally played in the key of G (by guitar players. sometimes D) and is written in 3/4 time. FOR A GUARANTEED FACT there are hundreds and thousands of "cheat on your wife-go throw a drunk" bar songs written in 3/4 time and the key of G. BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION THAT IS BEING LIKE THE WORLD! You can't have it both ways. Either all music stles that are played by the world should be totally avoided regardless of lyrical content... or admit that it is the content that makes the difference.

A second idea has been the lifestyle of the artists. I have seen very Godly and also some very ungodly rock, metal, screamo, you name it bands. I have also seen some very Godly and very ungodly hymn singing groups. In my personal experience of over 25 years of ministry the Southern Gospel groups were the overall most ungodly heathenistic folks I ever dealt with! Again..not all..but if put on a percentage scale the hymn singing Southern Gospel groups were far and away the most flesh serving group I had to deal with. Some we had to ban from all churches in the fellowship I serve because of their predatory nature and sexual perversion. They took teen girls out after their concerts of singing the old hymns of the church to then sexually assault those girls. Sorry... no respect from me just because they sing hymns..it was all a show. I have seen far more authentic fruit from those in the Christian contemporary/rock, etc. music field than I ever saw in the hymnn singing crowd. I then simply judged them by their fruit.

GinnyRose you stated

It sounds as though you know it is wrong, that the Holy Spirit had convicted you of it but you spurned that conviction. Now when some of us repeat what you know in your spirit to be wrong, you get all upset.

I did not enter my Christianity as a bigoted person. Thereore styles did not make me feel compelled to take a side. I could honestly judge it by its lyrical content and the fruit it bore out. You do not have that ability it seems. You judge simply by a format.

I love all styles of music. I enjoy some forms over others..but I appreciate and can enjoy them all. As a musician I find some I am naturally drawn to and am more proficient in.. but I am always wanting to learn and grow in musical areas I have not yet mastered. Wouldn't it be arrogant not to? The largest block of music on my MP3 is of Keith Green, followed by John Michael Talbot (surprised?!) I have some hours of Gregorian chant,lots of hymns, classical, and most any other style you can find that has good lyrical content and the bands have a consistent Christian testimony proven over time... I have several sermons by folks here on SI and I listen to "Revival Hymnn" probably at least once a month...but I also have screamo, chrisian rock, and christian metal of almost any flavor.

It seems you also have a limited knowledge of music history. That is not incindiary...just a pretty obvious observation. Music styles (hymns, contemporary priase/worship, Gregorian chant, Christian metal,free worship in the prophetic movement, screamo, classical, etc., etc. all have inherent traits that make them a good musical choice at particular times. For example..do you know WHY Wesley, Luther, etc. wrote as they did? IT WAS TO TEACH A TRUTH OR DOCTRINE..NORMALLY. You see much of their audience was illiterate and had no way to read a Bible even if they had one. SO..Wesley in his wisdom wrote hymns that had verses that were the main points of his message with a chorus that was the main thrust of his sermon. It was then often set in a tune familiar to the people so they could then easily learn and sing the tune and thereby remember his sermon! BRILLIANT! And that is largely why they wrote as they did at that point in history. We will often take a "rock style" worship song in our set of worship songs on Sunday and in part of that song do a bridge and break off into one of the great hymmns of the church. Our intent is to have folks focused in on Jesus..worshipping Him..and then bring in one of those doctrinal elements during that intense worship time that is in line with that song. I try to be faithful and use ALL the tools in the toolbox...not just the ones I like. After all..a hammer is a great hammer...but a lousy saw. they are all needed!

HOWEVER- That musical style of hymmns alone is EXTREMEMLY SHALLOW in terms of actual worship. Read through your hymnal. You will find that virtually NONE of them are directed to either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. A few..but very few. The last hymnal I did that survey on had less than 8% actually directed TO a member of the Trinity. They are almost exclusively hymns that either proclaim doctrinal truth or tell of someones testimony. All fine things at the right time. However, they are NOT worship directed to God in any way. THAT IS WHY the contemporary worship scene has exploded in recent years. People are LONGING for an intense and intimate experience with God. The structure of hymns simply aren't made for that to happen. They are good for their purpose... but their purpose is limited. God has a much bigger tool box that you understand.

I ask you then these questions...

1. Will you abandon "Amazing Grace" and all such hymns that use the same time signatures and keys as the aforementioned bar songs... or will you not apply the same standard to yourself that you seek to apply to others?

2. Since you believe some musical styles are "godly" and others are "satanic" then specifically and with detail please list for me the time signatures, key signatures, rythm patterns, and any nuances that are Godly reguarless of the lyrical content. It must be so or your argument can not stand.

3.Since you believe some musical styles are "godly" and others are "satanic" then specifically and with detail please list for me the time signatures, key signatures, rythm patterns, and any nuances that are ungodly reguarless of the lyrical content. It must be so or you argument won't stand.

4. You do embrace the clear Biblical mandates on worship don't you? For example Psalm 150 states,

"Praise Him with trumpet sound; praise Him with lute and harp!

"Praise him with the timbrel and dance:"

"Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals"

I may raise the hackles just a bit here...but hear me out before jumping to a conclusion. Please honestly answer these questions if you can.

I notice that the only music you seem to have approved is from a couple of hundred year period coming from European sources. You seem to have condemned any that has AfroAmerican or other ethnic roots. Is it just possible that the real source of you attacking other froms of music may be a small streak of racial prejudice. Not saying it is... but is sure has the earmaks of it at times.

Well...I will leave you to think about and answer those questions. have a great evening!

This is a very unhealthy debate,and edifies nothing, trust me it will never be resolved by either side. If your looking for a conversion, why not use your resources helping bring in some lost sheep. I would personally advise the folks that don't agree with Christian Rock, just to let it go, why? because your wasting you valuable time, if you don't condone it, just don't listen to it, really simple. Personally I like all kinds of music, but I am not wasting my time fighting over it, I will just listen to what I want, I don't need others approval and surly not their opinions. I also think it's terrible to interject scripture, because all the scriptures that I have read that's been posted, is way to vague to address this debate properly, and use Gods word to prove you right. But if you really must prove something you can't,or never will, well carry on Solders.

Wow...Solomon... Have a good day... "Bless the LORD, O my soul, and all that is within me bless His holy name".

Solomon, you are reading into my posts something I never said: I never mentioned what styles I consider godly. You have no clue, you just assume. I never said that musical instruments were evil. FYI, I also play two...took music lessons...I also can read music, both the ABC and the do, re, mi method. I can teach myself a new song simply by singing the notes.

Solomon, I find your arrogant attitude offensive.

That is all I will say.

ginnyrose

I haven't been a member on this forum for very long, but maybe it would be a good idea to shut this debate down (??). I can only imagine someone who doesn't know the Lord saying, "So this is what Christians look and sound like??? No thank you." Just a thought....

I agree mama! has you wondering if the lyrics on some of the music in this debate, or any worse than some of the words on this thread.

Everyone,

I have been at youth camps with young people where the music was more contemporary and yet I could worship God in the Holy Spirit. I have also been in situations where the music got real loud and a harder sound that over rode the words and was not real edifying to the Holy Spirit in me at all. I have also heard words chosen and said in such a way in a song that was more carnal in nature and did not promote pure worship.

I also believe that music has power and can be used in such a way that people can actually be worshipping the music instead of the Lord in Spirit and in truth. The main purpose of our worship with music is to exalt the Lord. We are to sing and make melody in our hearts unto the Lord. I use to have a problem with listening to contemporary music years ago when it first came out because right after I got saved I had to quit listening to worldly music because it bothered my spiritual relationship with God. The contemporary music bothered me because it brought back memories of my ungodly lifestyle. I can now listen to some contemporary praise and worship even some on the border line of the rock sound as long as it is truly exalting the Lord. I personally believe that we must be careful to what we allow our spirit to be open to because we belong to God and have been bought with a price to glorify God in our body and in our spirit. God does not want our spirit to be defiled by what we allow into it because it is God’s habitation and we can very well grieve the Holy Spirit. We must be very careful to make sure our worship is pure before God as we are to live a sanctified life unto God. We should be aware that there is music today that is under demonic influence and there is some worldly music not as much affected by the demonic. Heavy Metal, hard rock, punk rock, etc. are heavily influenced by the demonic and rooted in rebellion and pride. We must be very careful in how we use music in our worship to the Lord our God.

Brother and sisters we are to be humble and submissive to the Lord. We are not to be arrogant, sensuous, or devilish. We are to be of a gentle and godly spirit. In Romans 12.2 we are told that we are not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we may prove that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Paul also told us in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 (KJV) 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I don’t know all that much about the mechanics of music so let’s say we put all the technical stuff about music to the side for a moment. We all know music is an expression of communication. So let’s check with the word of God and see how we are to communicate. Also when we use music in our worship to God we are communicating to God. We are to learn from scripture and by the leading of the Holy Spirit on how to worship God. The bible teaches us that God is Spirit and that we are to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. The bible teaches us to not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. We are born of the Spirit and we are to be filled with he Spirit and we are to grow in the Spirit. We should listen to music and worship God with music that edifies our spiritual man. We should learn to distinguish the difference in what edifies our spiritual man and what pleases the flesh. We should not want to please our carnal nature.. We should be striving to please God in all that we do including the music that we listen to and in how we worship God. We should avoid anything, including music that excites the flesh instead of edifying our spiritual man.

These are some personal thoughts that I have learned in my walk with God. I have not posted in a long time but hope to be edifying to others.

May we all be blessed!

Ginnyrose and rbanks,
I agree with your sentiments. Some very good insights. Is music evil? Are instruments evil? No, they can glorify God. "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD". "Sing unto the LORD a new song".

"Yet Solomon's questions continue to go unanswered..."

I would like to see the answer for this as well?

I mean even if the Packaging Solomon delivered his questions were "offensive and arrogant" it doesn't make his questions invalid, don't take the offense on this but do so kindly answer the questions presented.

He also makes valid points, Do you believe the Lord's prayer? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? How loud do you think the music of millions upon millions of angels is going to be all singing in unison? Do you think its going to be such a peaceful moment? The Seraphim will are recording as saying in Revelation 4:8 "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and (D)day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

Do you think these creatures are going be softly whispering Holy, Holy, Holy? No context would show that they yell this with gusto and be quite loud. On the day you stand before Christ are you going to rebuke them saying hey loud song and words are not godly because its not peaceful simmer down now I am trying to praise the Lord?

In Revelation when God speaks its sounds like peals of thunder, are you going to ask Him so hush it up a bit loud phrasing is just what the world does? Seriously if you don't like loud then heaven isn't the place for you, its going to be so loud and I can garentee I am going to be loud, Ill go hoarse in my thoart for all eternity if it were possible to go hoarse in heaven.

Again though Solomon's questions have yet to be answered with exegetical scriptural responses.

If you really looked into music history you will see all the music that was viewed as worldly and ungodly then ALL Music would fall in this catagory even your beloved Amazing Grace and other hymns that we hold so dear.

The Gospel is being preached in a different manner Same Message different Packaging, as it should be, if listening to hymns was the source of my conviction then I would likely still be listening to the godless filth of Tupac, Eminem, Greenday, Ludacris, etc etc. Instead I found Christian Rock and Rap that magnifies Christ Jesus in way I willingly accept and understand for where I was at.

IF it can bring just one lost sheep to Christ JUST ONE then its done its job.

IF it can bring just one lost sheep to Christ JUST ONE then its done its job.

This statement is correct, my apologizes. The Holy Spirit worked through the lyrics and music to work on and in my heart conviction. Had I not listened to the music I had I would not have been faced with the truth because scripture was far from my heart and very hard. The Holy Spirit uses many different avenues to draw a heart to put Him in a religious box would be unwise. He doesn't need music to bring people to Christ but HE certianly used it for me.

Had I not listened to the music I had I would not have been faced with the truth because scripture was far from my heart and very hard.

That's what I said dear brother, as I stated before in my pervious post.

"HE DOESN'T NEED MUSIC to bring people to Christ but HE CERTAINLY USED IT FOR ME."

He absolutely doesn't need music but that doesn't mean He doesn't use it to bring people to Christ. Please keep my statements as a whole and in context to my whole post.

Matthew,

I am not close minded to all types of music for that would be ignorance. The bible even mentions psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. I can believe that God used the words in music and convicted you and brought you to salvation because of His great love for us. I am not saying that all the music in any category is bad for us but we do need to be discerning.

God used a word of faith preacher to bring conviction in my life and brought me to salvation. I thank God for my salvation experience and I love the Lord for saving me. But after a period of time I saw the errors of doctrine in the WOF preachers and I decided and knew without a doubt that it was the Lord that saved me and even though there was truth in some of their preaching I belonged to the Lord and was not going to follow them in the errors they were teaching. As we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord we are suppose to distinguish what is of God and what is not of Him

It’s not necessarily the noise that is the problem but the type of noise. I remember a time when I was praying back in 2006 and God filled me with the Holy Ghost like never before. I was literally drawn from my knees in prayer by the Holy Spirit to standing straight up with my hands out stretched to the heavens and I noticed that the noise coming out of my mouth was a loud roar. It was so loud that I remember thinking that I was going to wake everybody up in my community because it was late at night when this was happening.

I have seen people praising God with instruments and get loud. I believe in making a joyful noise unto the Lord. I also believe in quietness before Him in worship and also a softer sound at times.

I have not done a study on sounds but maybe the Lord will have me to do so but there are certain sounds for different things in the bible. I believe there are sounds that glorify the Lord and there are sounds that originate from our flesh and even from the devil.

2 Chronicles 5:13 (KJV) It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

Psalms 89:15 (KJV) Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Daniel 3:5 (KJV) That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

Daniel 3:7 (KJV) Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

John 3:8 (KJV) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Acts 2:2 (KJV) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

1 Corinthians 14:7 (KJV) And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Well, the bible says that each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. I may not be able to answer all the questions but I must be sensitive to the Holy Spirit within and to edification. There is so much more that could be said but these are just some things I have learned.

Blessings to all.

You can switch music for people, and it's still true. So?

What it all boils down to is that for most people music is an idol that they do not want to give up - which is evidenced by how much they cling to it.

We are to cling to Christ alone.

Respectfully Heartsong, you cling to other things other then Christ alone.

Let all be convienced in their own mind...

Respectfully Heartsong, you cling to other things other then Christ alone.

Phil 4: 8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

James 3: 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

I used to go to rock concerts and smoke weed many years ago.

I cannot see loud and aggressive Rock music fall into this category. It does not match up to the above scriptures. It is out of character. It is soulish at best, demonic at worst.

There is godly contemporary music around. There is even some on this very website. The problem is it does not sell and does not fill stadiums.

David was dancing with all his might when the ark was brought back. This was spiritual. I could not see him jumping up and down to this riotous rock music. Christian rock music takes secular Rock stars as their examples. Ask any of them where they get their inspiration. Their example is not Jesus Christ but emulate Jimmy Hendrix, Mick Jagger, Kurt Cobain, you name them. They are their disciples, many of them state that openly. It is not just the music, there is a whole lifestyle of rebellion against God and any authority behind it. Rock music is about person cult. It cannot be sanctified by Christian lyrics. It makes a mockery of precious lyrics. Even the dance movements are vulgar and explicit.

My spirit is grieved about Christian rock music and listen to this. This is not a matter of taste.

Christian Rock Music is a soulish "Ersatz" (substitute) for worship in Spirit and truth. It is one of the great deceptions of this age.

heartsong...So, He used a car accident to get my attention. Do you think I should promote that others do the same so that they might be saved?

What? I don't understand this, is this supposed to be some sort of way to compare music to a car wreck?

Your scriptural references are not on topic and are taken out of context for your argument, For you maybe Christian Rock isn't your idea of "peaceful" but for me it instills peace through the lyrical content as it speaks and glorifies Christ Jesus lifting Him high above the artist.

"I could not see him jumping up and down to this riotous rock music."

Have you sat down with David and discussed this? Your reasoning doesn't have any scriptural proof that David wouldn't praise the Lord in this kind of fashion. David was a music enthusiast and would likely stay true to His moods and feelings and there are even some Psalms written to a funeral derge, oh how unnerving of him to use such a style. David hired thousands of musicians and singers to praise the Lord night and day so music and more importantly praising the Father was important to David its likely David cared more about the Lyrical content than the musical style because that is what we find in our Psalms today very little musical notation.

"Christian rock music takes secular Rock stars as their examples. Ask any of them where they get their inspiration. Their example is not Jesus Christ but emulate Jimmy Hendrix, Mick Jagger, Kurt Cobain, you name them. They are their disciples, many of them state that openly."

So ALL Christian Rock bands do this? Its a generalization lumping all Christian Rock bands into the same boat, a little research would show your generalization is false.

"It is not just the music, there is a whole lifestyle of rebellion against God and any authority behind it. Rock music is about person cult. It cannot be sanctified by Christian lyrics. It makes a mockery of precious lyrics. Even the dance movements are vulgar and explicit."

Again another generalization for ALL Christian Rock bands it would be wise to avoid these since their mighty hard to prove accurate and you will stand judgment before Christ Jesus for false accusations. This argument is hardly going to end with an easy answer but if you could answer Brother Solomon101's questions then prehaps we can get somewhere on this discussion.

1. Will you abandon "Amazing Grace" and all such hymns that use the same time signatures and keys as the aforementioned bar songs... or will you not apply the same standard to yourself that you seek to apply to others?

2. Since you believe some musical styles are "godly" and others are "satanic" then specifically and with detail please list for me the time signatures, key signatures, rythm patterns, and any nuances that are Godly reguarless of the lyrical content. It must be so or your argument can not stand.

3. You do embrace the clear Biblical mandates on worship don't you? For example Psalm 150 states, Quote:

"Praise Him with trumpet sound; praise Him with lute and harp!
"... you do that in your church don't you.. since it is in scripture. Trumpets blasting..harps and lutes are simply guitars..you know that and use them...right? Psalm 150 also states, Quote:

"Praise him with the timbrel and dance:"

..you do that in your church since it is in scripture..right. You have dancing with tambourines in your services since God said that is what he wants..you do that..right? It also says in Psalm 150, Quote:

"Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals"

..you do that in your church..right? Big crashing loud cymbals and higher octaved tenor symbals..you do that since the Bible clearly says that is one of the things God likes in worship...right!"

Please be so kind as to answer these question from an exegestical stances of the scripture, it would be much appreciated.

Not for long, for I have asked Him to take away anything that I love more than Him.

Praise God Heartsong. May He show you His ways. Blessings!

for most people music is an idol

True.

I have not be reading this thread since I last posted but it has been continuously on my mind.

As I ponder the rock beat, the influence it has on my nephews, my sister-in-law who are all wayward, and my observations of rock musicians all I see is that it is highly sexual. The body language is totally sexual. It reflects the sexual drive in a male and whether they know it or not, a female can easily pick that up. (I wonder how many males, even those that came out of it, will admit to this fact? It would take a might brave one.)

That is why I hate it! I am a married woman - been since 1967 and have birthed 5 children - so I know something about this fact. (BTW, my husband hates it, too!:-) )

Our sexual drives are to be kept in reserve for our spouse alone, and not advertised for others to lust after.

This is why the secular rock music is all about perversion, violence, rape, rebellion. And scripture is clear about immorality coming from the devil - it is satanic!

To add religious lyrics to it does not make it holy. So, some say they got saved through it? Maybe that is true, I cannot say.. But it is also known that God has used false prophets to bring people to himself. Since this is the case in no wise would one recommend that one follow a false teacher.

But if you still love the music, go ahead, I will not stop you...

This is all ....

mguldner/Solomon and anyone else who likes their music...

If anyone would like a balanced insight into the modern Christian music culture they should read Keith Greens book. It talks about the struggles he had in what he saw at Christian festivals etc.. (and he did see God move in mighty ways unlike most modern Christian bands)

I like Rock - I grew up listening to Bon Jovi and Def leppard - still like the songs. Thing is I dont specifically sit down and listen to anything but Christian music now as it edifies and the other doesnt.

Now, the closer I become to God the more selective my spirit has become in what blesses me or what leaves me cold and to be honest almost all Rock stuff or more contemporary/cutting edge stuff has fallen to the wayside because it didnt edify my soul in the same way I thought it did a few years ago. And it hasnt just been Rock etc.. it's been many Praise bands and more sedate music too.

I cant make the call that Rock music is wrong, but I do believe with all my heart the Christian culture that is coming out of this christian fesitival lifestyle is as deep as a puddle in the desert. I know guys who are in a Rock band (and I used to play with them). They are VERY sincere in what they do but I know of almost no fruit from years and thousands of pounds spent on albums/equipment - and I see this with almost every young person who enters this trendy modern music Christian scene. Plenty of noise, energy and good works but nothing that the world couldn't do without God!

The flipside is EVERY person I regard as Holy in this world (and there arent many of them) - who has seen God move in a supernatural way and truely has the presence of Jesus with them cannot stomach this culture of Christian music. Listen to Keith Daniels for one example.

So is it wrong to listen to a CD of these bands based on the style of music? I cant say an outright 'no', cause there are good lyrics and sincere people behind it. But most is shallow and pointless.

I say yes to praising God with all that we have,using our gifts. Yes,why not make loud noise and even jump around in excitment if you are bursting with joy. I think you'll find most are just dancing to the music and the excitment of it rather than out and out praising their God.

In case you havent noticed - I'm sick of shallow Christianity. I truely believe if we all were much closer to God these issues would be less of an issue as we'd feed our spirit with the best food we could get our hands on -and that isnt 99% (give or take a percent!) of any style of Christian music. I even prefer listening to MP3 sermons than music now (and I never thought I'd end up saying that)

Dear mguldner,

I had given scriptural evidence that can be applied and I could give more, but would that help?

Why do we need Christian Rock concerts? Because there aren't many preachers around who know the power of God, so the rely on the power of amplifiers and light shows. There are a few noteworthy preachers who abhor rock music like Keith Daniel, Paul Washer, Leonard Ravenhill, Zac Poonen or David Wilkerson. What do they have in common? The power of God.

Ps 150 is a wonderful Psalm. There is a place for exuberant worship.
When there is godly worship I sometimes clap my hands and even dance. At times I take the egg shakers or you can spot me with a tambourine.

Zac Poonen concluded his message on Christian Rock Music:
Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

http://www.youtube.com/user/sermonindex#p/search/3/pZcfAxoEPaY

Hey, lets just worship the Lord!?!?

You say potato. I say potatoe.