God hates the sinners

GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY” Psalms 5:5

THE BIBLE SAYS GOD HATES SINNERS, NOT JUST THE SIN:

Leviticus 20:23: “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I ABHORRED THEM.”

Leviticus 26:14-30: “If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise My statutes, or if your soul abhor My judgments, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but that ye break My covenant, I also will do this to you... [send plagues, famine, drought, destructive armies, wild beasts who shall devour your children, pestilence, captivity in a cruel land...] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto Me, but walk contrary to Me; Then I WILL WALK CONTRARY TO YOU IN FURY... I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and MY SOUL SHALL ABHOR YOU.”

Deuteronomy 18:12 “For all that do these things are an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD, and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.”

Deuteronomy 25:16: “...ALL THAT DO UNRIGHTEOUSLY ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO THE LORD.”

Deuteronomy 28:62-63: “Because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God... it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will the Lord will REJOICE OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.” (In Deuteronomy 27, 28, and 29, 124 CURSES are promised upon the Jews who refused to obey God’s commandments.)

Deuteronomy 32:16-20: “They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to ANGER... And when the Lord saw it [people sacrificing to devils - v.17], HE ABHORRED THEM...”

Psalm 2:4-9: “The Lord that sits in the heavens shall LAUGH [at rebellious men]: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak unto them in His WRATH, and VEX THEM IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE... [and Christ shall] break them with a rod of iron: Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Psalm 5:5-6: “The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lies): THE LORD WILL ABHOR THE BLOODY AND DECEITFUL MAN.”

Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”

Psalm 10:3: “For the wicked... blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.”

Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”

Psalm 50:22: “Now consider this, ye that forget God, LEST I TEAR YOU IN PIECES, AND THERE BE NONE TO DELIVER.”

Psalm 78:59: “When God heard this He was wroth, and GREATLY ABHORRED ISRAEL.”

Psalm 106:40: “Therefore was the wrath of the Lord kindled against His people, insomuch that HE ABHORRED HIS OWN INHERITANCE.”

Proverbs 3:32-33: “For the froward is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD... The CURSE OF THE LORD is in the house of the wicked: but He blesseth the habitation of the just.”

Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

Proverbs 16:5: “Every one that is proud in heart is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.”

Proverbs 17:5: “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are ABOMINATION TO THE LORD.”

Proverbs 22:14: “The soul of strange women is a deep pit: HE THAT IS ABHORRED OF THE LORD shall fall therein.”

Jeremiah 17:5: “Thus saith the Lord, CURSED BE THE MAN that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

Malachi 1:3-4: “And I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness...thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and the people AGAINST WHOM THE LORD HATH INDIGNATION FOREVER.”

Romans 9:13: “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.”

I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”

James 4:4: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is ENMITY (or HATRED) WITH GOD? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an ENEMY OF GOD.”

I Peter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL.”

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

THE HISTORICAL POSITION OF THE CHURCH
AS REVEALED BY ITS REPRESENTATIVES

AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): “For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys.” (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)

JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): “But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them.” (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)

JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES G. FINNEY: “The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger.” (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)

F. DELITZSCH : “Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters:)... SUCH MEN JEHOVAH HATES: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love,” ... “And His soul HATES the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth.” (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous...” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG : “There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin.” (Systematic Theology, p.290f)

J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy.” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

LAYMAN’S BIBLE COMMENTARY: “God’s Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to HATE BOTH THE SINNER AND HIS SIN. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but there is truth here we dare not overlook.”

MATTHEW HENRY’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”

THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: “But the wicked HIS SOUL DOTH HATE... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and HE HATES THEM FROM HIS VERY SOUL. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and HATING His deadly enemies...”

THE INTERPRETER’S BIBLE: “In vs. 5 the verb ‘trieth’ has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means no more that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, HATING THE LATTER and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them.”

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: “Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who HATES ALL ‘DOERS OF SIN.’ Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: HE DETESTS THE MAN OF BLOODY DEEDS AND DECEITS.”
THE CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD

“God hates the sin, but loves the sinner” has become the motto of American evangelism today. Certainly, God hates sin – about this there can be no equivocation. And the Bible makes it plain that God loves the sinner. But the Bible also states unambiguously, with striking frequency, that GOD HATES SINNERS. The Bible says that He will laugh at the wicked when their calamity comes like a whirlwind, and that He rejoices over the wicked to destroy them. If you find this concept of God incompatible with the tenets of your religion, I question whether you really know the God of the Bible.

Justice is an attribute of love. A Judge in a courtroom of justice rejoices to catch the criminals, convict, and punish them. Is it because he is unloving? No. If he is loving, he will be glad the rapists, murderers, car thieves, child molesters are sent to jail - for the greater good of society. God hates sinners in the same sense a Judge would hate criminals - for the greater good of mankind! God hates sinners in the same sense that He hates the devil - to promote the general welfare of man. Not because God is hateful, but because He is benevolent. For the greater good of the universe, He will rid the earth of all rebels and reign forever. It’s best, it’s right, it’s the loving thing to do. As long as sinners serve the devil by continuing their relentless war against God, their Holy Maker hates, abhors, curses, detests, despises them, and will ultimately destroy them in His wrath - because God is Love.

There is a sense in which God loves all men unconditionally, sinners and saints, that is not at all contradictory to the Biblical teaching of God’s hatred for sinners. God loves the sinner in the sense that He is benevolent to them - He wills their good. God wills that all men repent and not perish (II Pet.3:9). His disposition toward man is to show mercy - He is longsuffering, He is slow to wrath and quick to forgive. He does not send speedy judgment when we sin, but convicts us by His Spirit and gives us time to consider our ways. God’s unconditional love for mankind prompted Him to send Jesus to die to motivate man to turn from sin to God, and to secure the salvation of those who meet the terms of the covenant. Most of the time the Bible speaks of God’s love, it is in the context of Jesus death on the cross (John 3:16, Rom.5:8, I John 3:16). This type of love for man is unconditional.

God’s benevolence for sinners is not emotional drivel or sentimental feelings. He does not accept sinners “just the way they are”; they must repent (change) and believe in order to be accepted by Him (Acts 10:35). He doesn’t love sinners the way that they want Him to: He does not give them unconditional approval, unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, or unconditional friendship. He has unconditional love for the sinner, but he doesn’t like them.

The Bible also speaks of a love God has for man that is CONDITIONAL. Hear the Word of God:

Proverbs 8:17 “I LOVE THEM THAT LOVE ME: and those that seek Me early shall find Me.”

John 14:21 “He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and HE THAT LOVETH ME SHALL BE LOVED OF MY FATHER, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said unto him, IF A MAN LOVE ME, he will keep My words; AND MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.”

John 15:10 “IF ye keep My commandments, YE SHALL ABIDE IN MY LOVE; even as I kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

John 16:27 “For the FATHER HIMSELF LOVETH YOU, BECAUSE YE HAVE LOVED ME, and have believed that I came out from God.”

I John 2:15 “Love not the world, neither the things in the world. IF any man love the world, THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS NOT IN HIM.”

God’s conditional love is the love of complacency and friendship, such as the love a man would have for an old, faithful comrade. God’s conditional love is fellowship. We enjoy this love only by responding in a loving way to the influence of His unconditional love. “We love Him because He first loved us.” We cannot know God and His conditional love unless we cease to love sin and He becomes our First Love.

Love by definition must be voluntary, so God cannot force His love upon anybody. That would not be benevolent - just as it would not be benevolent for a man to “force” himself upon a woman. God wants our love to be a free expression from our heart. Only in this would He receive glory and be pleased. God invites, persuades, pleads, and beckons man to leave his idolatrous loves and worship and adore his Creator above all, to give God pre-eminence in his life. If man complies, God delights in him. Should God delight in Hitler and Moses alike? Should God be pleased with Judas Iscariot and John the Apostle the same? As long as sinners reject the love of God shown in the bloody cross of Christ, they cannot receive God’s conditional love. As long as they continue in their sins, they are at war with the Lawgiver, and under the condemnation of His Law and wrath of His justice, God’s love notwithstanding. Unless they meet the terms of the covenant - fear God, repent, obey, love God supremely - they are doomed to the fire of God’s Holy hatred and wrath on Judgment Day!

The real question is not “Does God love you?” but “Do you love God?” Never did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever tell the lost multitudes, “God loves you”. Never! Rather, they told the multitudes of their duty to love God supremely and love their neighbor equally - this is all the Law of God. And if sinners would not keep God’s Law, they were warned of the righteous judgments of God, so that they would fear Him. In the book of Acts, our first example of Church evangelism, the word “love” is not mentioned even once, while the fear of the Lord is referred to ten times! What is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom? The Bible says it is THE FEAR OF THE LORD! One cannot love God in the Biblical sense - benevolence, good-willing, perfect submission - until He fears God! This extra-Biblical, humanistic gospel that omits mention of God’s wrath and condemnation, focuses on God’s love for sinners, and provokes no godly repentance has quenched the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon so many. The rebels hear someone tell them, “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” and think it means God accepts them, or that God has good feelings for them, or that God is pleased with them, and that is far from the truth. God is Holy, and does not accept them as they are - He hates them as they are! God’s “plan” for them is eternal torment in the lake of fire unless they repent and submit to God! This “God-loves-you-unconditionally, false Gospel” should be utterly forsaken for the Gospel message of the Bible!

http://www.famguardian1.org/Subjects/Spirituality/Articles/DoesGodHateSinners.htm

When we have an improper understanding of the New Covenant and are oblivious to the wickedness within our own hearts, we feel the need to tell sinners God hates them. But you don't find this concept in the ministry of Jesus Christ, Who is our example. You don't find it in Paul or John either. We love Him because He first loved us, not hated us. And He loved us while we were yet sinners. The law of God already conveys that something is wrong in the heart of the condemned without having to tell a person "God hates you". But this is a favorite tactic of certain insensitive street preachers and college campus evangelists in order to to fire up dialogue and purposefully incite the crowds. It has a shock quality unauthorized by God that really gets the flesh seething. It's predicated upon self-rightousness, bitterness toward the unconverted, and an unholy provocation to not see sinners saved, but exposed and shamed.

But the great breaking attraction to God is His divine love shown to us in the Son. The sinner is broken and drawn to God by cords of love, not hatred.

The title 'God Hates Sinners' is provocative and obviously provokes a knee jerk reation that says 'No He does not'!

However there is a lot of truth (scripture) in what was posted by Josef83. Not that I would suggest we evangelise by telling folk that God hates them. We can declare that God has demonstarated His love to them by the sacrifice of His son, however if we reject this and in hardness of heart continue in our rebellion and iniquity 'the wrath of God abides on us'. 'God resists the proud, BUT gives grace to the humble' (James 4:6) Grace is given to the humbe not the proud.

God can both hate the sinner and love the sinner because in the same way that God's love is not primarily an emotion, nor is His hatred. They are both a reasoned response to the state of a man.

To be fair to josef83 he did qualify his position by saying this.....

There is a sense in which God loves all men unconditionally, sinners and saints, that is not at all contradictory to the Biblical teaching of God’s hatred for sinners. God loves the sinner in the sense that He is benevolent to them - He wills their good. God wills that all men repent and not perish (II Pet.3:9). His disposition toward man is to show mercy - He is longsuffering, He is slow to wrath and quick to forgive. He does not send speedy judgment when we sin, but convicts us by His Spirit and gives us time to consider our ways. God’s unconditional love for mankind prompted Him to send Jesus to die to motivate man to turn from sin to God, and to secure the salvation of those who meet the terms of the covenant. Most of the time the Bible speaks of God’s love, it is in the context of Jesus death on the cross (John 3:16, Rom.5:8, I John 3:16). This type of love for man is unconditional.

God’s benevolence for sinners is not emotional drivel or sentimental feelings. He does not accept sinners “just the way they are”; they must repent (change) and believe in order to be accepted by Him (Acts 10:35). He doesn’t love sinners the way that they want Him to: He does not give them unconditional approval, unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, or unconditional friendship. He has unconditional love for the sinner, but he doesn’t like them.

God loves the sinner in the sense that He is benevolent to them - He wills their good.

Well you cant say its wrong. Because then we ignore plenty of scripture.
God Is Love and loves what is Good.
therefore he must hate evil and evildoers.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0458.htm "The Friend of Sinners" - Spurgeon.

Very good Post, Paul West....

I used to hear Leonard Ravenhill say this, and I understand what n why he was stating it in this manner.

U cannot separate the sinner from his way or the man from his sins, however one wants to clear it up. but I believe that he was stating that it is more of a condition of mankind rather than something we go out and tell someone about themselves.

God hates u, then he hates me too becuz i am loaded with flaws and weaknesses

Josef83 wrote truth clearly revealed in Scripture. He did not take any out of context.

The truth remains that God both hates and loves unrepentant sinners at the same time even though we may not fully understand how that can be. This is crystal clear throughout the Bible, even in the New Testament.

Many Christians are so used to hearing only about God's grace and love these days that when they hear about His wrath they cringe. That is unfortunate. We should hold fast to the whole counsel of God not just certain parts which are palatable to modern society.

The wrath of God is a much needed message in our times, as well as the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ. Let us not water down the clear truth of Scripture in these last days. Paul told the Ephesians he did not hold back anything profitable from them but declared to them the whole counsel of God. May we do likewise.

I remember reading an analogy once from John MacArthur through which he tried to explain how God can both love and hate sinners at the same time.

MacArthur compared it to a relationship between a husband and an unfaithful wife who commits adultery. When the husband finds out about the adultery he may very well still emotionally love his wife because of all the years they've been together. At the same time he will feel hurt and indignant and angry toward her for her adulterous act. He will have both feelings of love and anger at the same time at that moment. I know that is not the greatest analogy but I thought it explains how you can both hate and love someone at the same time.

Never did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever tell the lost multitudes, “God loves you”.

Jesus may not have told sinners directly that God loves them but in Matthew 5: 43-48 Jesus commands us to be perfect in love even as God is perfect in love V.48

Perfection in love is illustrated in loving not only our friends but also our enemies V.44, just as God loves His enemies V.45

God shows His love to those who curse, hate, despitefully use, and persecute Him and His followers.

God's love for His enemies is shown in the fact that He gives them rain and sunshine V.45

But we know that many of those who enjoy the love of God now manifested in His goodness will be thrown in eternal hell.

Then we must ask: What kind of love that God has for the ungodly. Is it unconditional love, or is it a love that drives to a purpose?

In Romans 2: 3-6 we see the purpose of the goodness of God towards the ungodly. It is to bring him to repentance.

if that purpose is not met by the sinner, God's love manifested in His longfuffering, goodness will no longer exist.

There is a balance that must be sought that is not found in most messages. Those who preach that God loves every one unconditionally, and those who say that God hates sinners have incomplete messages.

The reason for this on the part of some is due to their desire to put God in a box in their finite, human brains. It does not fit their understanding of the immutability of God.
How could God judge for eternity those whom He loves now?

But they forget that God is righteous. He must leave the sinners with NO excuse as to why they rejected His love.

some more scriptures to consider.
I have hated those who regard useless idols;
But I trust in the LORD.
ps 31:6

The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.
Ps 37:12-13.

I think it was D.A carson or Abidoram judson who said
that it say 14 times in the 50 first psalms of the bible that God hates the wicked, sinner etc.

And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Here it is in these verses. Yes, by nature we were the children of wrath, but now as Paul Harvey says "Now for the rest of the story." "But God who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us." When did God love us? When we were righteous or dead in our sins? The scripture plainly says that God loved us when we were dead in our sins. Yes, there is the wrath of God, but praise God there is a but! "but God who is rich in mercy."

If we follow this flawed idea to it's logical conclusion that God hates sinners, then that should be our view also. If God hates sinners, then we should hate sinners, and we should tell them that God hates them.

The good news of the gospel is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sin, but He will also point us to the love and mercy of Jesus Christ who took our place and bore the wrath of God so that we could be justified.

Mike

Maybe he loved us while we where sinners because we where already elected to love him?

Did God start to hate Adam and Eve after they sinned? Surely he had to expel them from his presence, lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever in a reprobate state.

He did not say, I hate you from now on, neither did he say, Adam, I still love you.

He provided lamb skins that speak of the righteousness of Christ
and blocked the way to the tree of life.

Gen 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

Gen 3: 24So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

There was no way to come back to the tree of life, any way you try, the sword would catch up with you. The word of God would pronounce you guilty.

Then the Lord himself would come and pave the way back to the tree of live. This sword would wound him fatally, but he defeated death.

His love is not to the sinner but in the provision of redemption for the sinner. Love without redemption is not love. His redemption is the greatest single act of love.

The sad thing to see is extremes on both sides. Those who deny the wrath of God or the love of God. This is like other topics that can go extreme on either side.

I would highly recommend "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards

Audio:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1729

Text Article:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=544

That is a sermon which God used mightily during the first Great Awakening. That is the kind of preaching that was done by Edwards, Whitefield, Wesley and others. These days we don't hear much of that kind of preaching. We have made God out to be like a weak grandfather figure sitting on a rocking chair, who does not care about justice. That is the idol of America today. They think they can drink sin like water and not face any consequences in the end.

Yes, He is the loving Heavenly Father who is waiting with wide open arms for the prodigal son. But He is also the worst enemy you will ever have if you die in your sins without repentance and faith in the Savior.

"The sad thing to see is extremes on both sides. Those who deny the wrath of God or the love of God. This is like other topics that can go extreme on either side."

Amen brother!

We must have a understanding from the scriptures of both the love and wrath of God. Both the goodness and severity of the Lord. The mercy of God is understood when we realize that we deserve death for our sins, but praise God for the cross of Christ. Calvary demonstrated both the love and the wrath of God.

Mike

Apparently, God knows who the real enemies are, the children of the devil, the eternally-irreconcilled reprobates. These are vessels fitted for destruction, as the Word teaches. You and I can't possibly know who these people are; for example, we would have thought Paul the Apostle to be chief among them, but God had mercy on Paul in a sovereign, amazing way when Paul wasn't even seeking forgiveness or repentance. We later find that God called and separated Paul from his mother's womb to demonstrate His glory through him.

I believe telling a person "God hates you" is just as foolish and presumptuous as indiscriminately telling a person "God loves you", for we find neither example in the New Testament. But unfortunately there are those who almost make a fetish out of telling the lost that God hates them, and to bolster their bitterness will even take a concordance to look up each verse containing the word "hate" or "abhor" (99% of which happen to come from Old Testament law and the same Psalms where killing women and children and smashing the bones of one's enemies are sought after and vengefully entreated of by God). But has Christ taught us this? Why are we even interested in this sort of thing?

Would to God we would be so full of His love that sinners' hearts would melt, and revelatory visions of Calvary strike blind eyes when the gospel is preached.

I know, for myself, with the unsaved I'm very gentle and with the young in Christ, very protective, but those who should know better, I may use stronger words.

It really takes maturity and brokeness to be a friend to sinners and yet remain obedient unto God. The flesh wants to scream at the abortionist "God hates you!", but Jesus instead knocks on his door to have supper and share a parable. God sends His light into dark places, not to condemn the world through blinding hatred, but so that the world can be saved in the illumination of the cross.

"The sad thing to see is extremes on both sides. Those who deny the wrath of God or the love of God. This is like other topics that can go extreme on either side. "

I havent seen anyone exreem.
both things are there in the scripture.
its like the doctrine of predestination.
you cant understand it with your human mind.
God has predestined before the foundation of the earth who will get saved. How does this fit with human responsibility?
well even paul did not now know the answer to that question.
"But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’" Rom 9:20
apparently not even Iraneaus could answer it neither but also he belived in it.
but both are found in scripture.
same case here both truths are in scripture.

hi, if i was esteemed to have any respect for my 72 years of age and my 43 years of salvation so that i could give advice it would be to read the gospels over and over until you really know Jesus for who He is. and He said if you have seen Me you have seen the Father.jimp

Man let me tell you, If god hated me, I would be in a world of absolute trouble.....

I have felt all of my life as it is that I have never been accepted by God. I have always thought I was going to be punished no matter what or that I could never earn a place of favor, which is true, but I understand differently.

What I do see now is that he loves me with everyone of my flaws

remember that we now live under the law of love n Grace, not under the law of moses, stark difference. And god knows that we do not know how to love him or know how to come near to him without Jesus, so it is a pleasure that he gives us Jesus. heck, some of us dont even know how to come with jesus!

Now if we stay out of the way of righteousness, and dont want to hear or believe with a very indignant or bitter spirit, we can reap certain outcomes upon ourselves.

All I can say right now is that knowing how I thought compared to how I am learning to think after 25 years, is that Christ bridged a gap of punishment and destruction for me. I am so proud to know that.

Especially while I go through what I am enduring now, He has got to care for me more than I have ever imagined. So, thank God for an obedient and love stricken Christ

Hallelujah

I havent seen anyone exreem.

brother Josef, what I meant was that it seems some who have posted have a problem accepting both truths at the same time, that God both loves and hates the non-elect and the "unconverted yet" elect. His holy wrath abides on all the unsaved, while at the same time He loves them much more than we can even imagine.

I think one main concern you addressed in your original post was the idea that God only hates the sin and not the sinner. That may be a nice sounding cliche but it is not taught in Scripture.

I too was going to compare this to the Sovereignty/Human responsibility issue but I did not want to possibly start anything here on that.

If were saved are we still sinners?

Maybe our concept of God's love is too restricted. As finite creatures there is no way we can comprehend the eternal love of God. God's love for us is not the sentimental Hollywood kind of love or even a parent-child type of love. These are poor comparisons.

God's love is so great that it includes eternal wrath for anything opposed to it. We, by nature, are opposed to God and therefore merit His wrath (Eph 2:3). Once converted, God sees us in Christ who, by nature, is perfect.

I would recommend the writings of J Sidlow Baxter for further study on God's love.

"We deny that all mankind are the object of that love of God which moved him to send his Son to die; God having 'made some for the day of evil' (Prov. 16:4); 'hated them before they were born' (Rom. 9:11, 13); 'before of old ordained them to condemnation' (Jude 4); being 'fitted to destruction' (Rom. 9:22); 'made to be taken and destroyed' (II Pet. 2:12); 'appointed to wrath' (I Thess. 5:9); to 'go to their own place' (Acts 1:25), reprobation is the issue of hatred, or a purpose of rejection." - John Owen

"God loves His people in Christ, but He hates all the workers of iniquity (Ps. 5:5). Since God loves holiness, that very love turns in hatred against unholiness and sin. Since He is righteous, He burns with righteous indignation against all wickedness. Since He loves Himself as the sole Good, He banishes from His presence all that is in conflict with His Holy Name. God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him. No one has ever dared to deny that God hates the devil. And yet also the devil is one of God's creatures, who was created as a holy angel. If God hates the devil and his host, does He not hate those who are branded in Scripture as the very seed of the serpent, a generation of vipers? Nor can we distinguish between the deed and the person, as if God hates the sin but loves the sinner. For the deed can never be separated from the depravity of the one who commits the sin, nor can the guilt be reckoned to anyone but the guilty party. Therefore God does not banish sin to hell, but the sinner. The Word of God never hesitates, therefore, to declare that God's very soul hates the wicked and him that loveth violence (Ps. 11:5). "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13)." - Cornelius

"The Christ of modern, freewill, works religion loves everyone in the universe and wants to save them. We are told that Christ loves all men alike, desires the salvation of all men alike, and is gracious to all men alike. That makes the love, will, and grace of Christ helpless and useless. But that language cannot be applied to the Christ of the Bible. The true Christ, the Christ of the Bible, the saving Christ loves his people, wills and prays for the salvation of his people, and is gracious to his people, the people unconditionally chosen unto salvation from eternity, whom he came to save (Ps. 5:5; 7:11; 11:5; Matt. 1:21; 11:27; John 10:16; 17:9-10; Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:21-24; Eph. 1:3-6)." - D.S. Fortner

“I cannot understand how there can be such a universal love of God to mankind as is maintained [by some]. Those that will say it must needs deny the absolute reprobation; then a love to those whom God hath absolutely reprobated both from salvation and the means of salvation” -
George Gillespie

"When hatred is ascribed to God, it implies (1) a negation of benevolence, or a resolution not to have mercy on such and such men, nor to endue them with any of those graces which stand connected with eternal life. So, ‘Esau have I hated’ (Rom. 9), i.e., ‘I did, from all eternity, determine within Myself not to have mercy on him.’ The sole cause of which awful negation is not merely the unworthiness of the persons hated, but the sovereignty and freedom of the Divine will. (2) It denotes displeasure and dislike, for sinners who are not interested in Christ cannot but be infinitely displeasing to and loathsome in the sight of eternal purity. (3) It signifies a positive will to punish and destroy the reprobate for their sins, of which will, the infliction of misery upon them hereafter, is but the necessary effect and actual execution" - J.Z.

"Now a word concerning the reprobate, with whom the apostle is at the same time there concerned. For as Jacob, deserving nothing by good works, is taken into grace, so Esau, as yet undefiled by any crime, is hated [Rom. 9:13]". And as Esau was deprived of this habitation, the prophet sacredly gathers that he was hated of God, because he had been thus rejected from the holy and elect family, on which the love of God perpetually rests ... when one holds that God’s election of grace has no reference to, or connection with, His hatred of the reprobate, I maintain that reference and connection to be a truth. Inasmuch as the just severity of God answers, in equal and common cause, to that free love with which He embraces His elect" - John Calvin

"The love and hate of God towards men is immutable and eternal, existing, not merely before there was any merit or work of ‘free-will,’ but before the world was made; [so] all things take place in us of necessity, according as He has from eternity loved or not loved ... faith and unbelief come to us by no work of our own, but through the love and hatred of God." - Martin Luther

Even Adolph Hitler bought gifts for his wife on christ-mass,and gave food and shelter to his dog. So God must have loved him,and must have been broken-hearted when he commited suicide,and had to cast him into hell.
He[God]certainly couldn't have hated him!

Thanks for posting this Josef83.

Let us go and Preach the Gospel to every creature!

Dear friends,

We simply cannot outright deny revealed Biblical truth. To do so is very dangerous. It is absolutely true that God hates all workers of iniquity. It is equally true that God has shown love in Jesus Christ. The Difference is Christ, Christ, Christ, CHRIST! He is the City of Refuge, the Cleft in the Rock!

Christ Himself said that all who do not believe in Him, the Wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36). None of us are without excuse according to Romans. Outside of Christ we suppress and deny what truth we know of God, because our heart is at enmity against Him. We apart from God are all workers of iniqutiy. We have all willfully sought out our own devices Ecc 7:29.

Love with out Holiness isn't true Love and Holiness without love isn't true Holiness. Christ is the only way God can be Holy and yet show love toward sinners. Christ loves Holiness soo much that He bought it with His blood.

Yes, some people can be mean spirited and wrong, unsaved themselves, by raging at people with only law and condemnation. To preach without tenderness and a sincere desire to see people saved by Grace is wrong. If we ourselves be saved by unmerited favor, surely we must with humility testify of God's grace. How can anyone who has seen the glory of God in the face of Jesus be proud of self? But there must also be a fervent, boldness to not fear men who can only destroy body, but God who will destroy body and soul in Hell. No one deserves salvation, i think we often forget that, that fact ought also keep us humble in preaching, for who am I that God would show His grace to me?

The Gospel truth is that the whole world is on the broad way to an eternal Hell, yes an Eternal Hell and there is only one WAY of Salvation. Hell necessitated by our sin against God, incurring totally righteous wrath. Our witnessing and preaching must be in love, but it also must be in truth. God of the Old Testament is the Same God of the New. Exodus 34:6-7. Our greatest problem is that God is Good!

One preacher said it like this. Does God hate sinners, Yes! Does God love sinners, Yes! Look at Isaiah 53, it is proof of both! What Grace that the Lamb took to Himself the wrath of all those who will believe in Him! What a Savior! I beleive the more we can see great importance of both Truths, and the absolute necessity of both as shown by Scripture, the more weight and glory it gives to God in the work on Cavalry. Take away or dimish one or the other and you are playing a dangerous game. We know both are true though we cannot fully explain it, but neither can we explain how God made something from nothing! :)We will have all of eternity to be amazed in learning more and thus in knowing more will we be compelled to worship Him more!

God hated the old me. Tis good that He did for the old man is wicked as can be. If he had not hated it Heaven should be like an eternal Alcatraz prison. May he (the old man) remain crucified daily and that Christ would live and reign eternally. If we be in Christ we are a new creature, the old man is dead, He loves us, not because of who We are or what we have done, but because of who He is and what He has done. But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Galatians 6:14

Oh no, let's not turn this into a cal/arm debate! But I have to agree that I don't appreciate some of those quotes. "For God so loved the world.." Jesus loved the rich young ruler even though he walked away from Christ! God's love is toward all people! He demonstrates that by sending Christ to taste death for EVERYONE, because He desires all men to be saved. He placed everyone in a position that they would feel after Him and find Him. It is absurd to say that there are some people that God doesn't love! Truth is like a razor blade, it can be used to save someones life or to kill someone. God's hatred for the wicked is not in conflict with His love for them. Even though thats not a intellectualy satisfying answer, its got to be true!

TimmyJoe said,

"Jesus loved the rich young ruler even though he walked away from Christ!"

Re: The rich young ruler

Who was he?

Where is he now?

Any thoughts?

Thank you, Paul, for an outstanding representation of the heart of our good Father.

Matthew Henry on John 3:36
"They cannot but be miserable: The wrath of God abides upon an unbeliever. He is not only under the wrath of God, which is as surely the soul's death as his favour is its life, but it abides upon him. All the wrath he has made himself liable to by the violation of the law, if not removed by the grace of the gospel, is bound upon him. God's wrath for his daily actual transgressions lights and lies upon him. Old scores lie undischarged, and new ones are added: something is done every day to fill the measure, and nothing to empty it. Thus the wrath of God abides, for it is treasured up against the day of wrath."

Matthew Henry on Romans 1:18
"In general (v. 18), the wrath of God is revealed. The light of nature and the light of the law reveal the wrath of God from sin to sin. It is well for us that the gospel reveals the justifying righteousness of God from faith to faith. The antithesis is observable. Here is, 1. The sinfulness of man described; he reduceth it to two heads, ungodliness and unrighteousness; ungodliness against the laws of the first table, unrighteousness against those of the second. 2. The cause of that sinfulness, and that is, holding the truth in unrighteousness. Some communes notitae, some ideas they had of the being of God, and of the difference of good and evil; but they held them in unrighteousness, that is, they knew and professed them in a consistency with their wicked courses. They held the truth as a captive or prisoner, that it should not influence them, as otherwise it would. An unrighteous wicked heart is the dungeon in which many a good truth is detained and buried. Holding fast the form of sound words in faith and love is the root of all religion (2 Timothy 1:13), but holding it fast in unrighteousness is the root of all sin. 3. The displeasure of God against it: The wrath of God is revealed from heaven; not only in the written word, which is given by inspiration of God(the Gentiles had not that), but in the providences of God, his judgments executed upon sinners, which do not spring out of the dust, or fall out by chance, nor are they to be ascribed to second causes, but they are a revelation from heaven. Or wrath from heaven is revealed; it is not the wrath of a man like ourselves, but wrath from heaven, therefore the more terrible and the more unavoidable."

It is rather sad and concerning to see some here who seem opposed to the truth of God's wrath which is clearly taught in Scripture. It seems like a sign of the times of apostasy we are living in, sadly to say. We desperately need revival.

In all things the Lord Jesus Christ must be our example, our very life; how he preached, walked, his discourse and attitude toward sinners must be ours. If the Lord told people "God hates you", then I will too. If he taught God's hatred in the temple, then I will teach it in the pulpit. If he preached "God hates you" in the streets, then I too will tell people in the streets that God hates them.

Mere theological head knowledge without the Spirit of grace will hurt you, as it hurt the pharisees. According to God's word, a man who picked up sticks on the sabbath should be put to death. After all, it was scriptural, right out of the Pentateuch. But Jesus said, "Pick up your bed and walk" to a man on the sabbath. A woman caught in adultery needed to be killed according to scripture. But Jesus said, "Go, and sin no more" and released her. God hates sinners, according to scripture. But Jesus said, "God so loved the world". A world of whom? Of righteous people? The righteous have no need of a physician. But while we were yet sinners, God died for us. Was it love or hatred that motivated the slaughter of Christ for us? If you say "hatred for sin", you would be right, but why then impute the crimes of the guilty upon one man and destroy him that was innocent? Clearly, God loves sinners with an incomprehensible, divine love that defies our mortal comprehension. But never does he condone the actions of the sinner, and those who die in sin are tragically lost forever, with the wrath of God forever upon them.

My dear brethren, we will never go astray if we are careful to always look to Jesus, for not only is he the author of our faith, but he is also the way for us, the truth for us, the life for us. He is our eternal beacon for all things theological, practical, spiritual. He is our blessed rest. How Jesus loved, we love. His compassion is our compassion, his humility, his sobriety, his grace, his righteous indignation all are ours. I can't find the concept "hatred for sinners" ever coming from his lips or heart; I find the direct opposite. It should never be upon ours. I know there have been some great men of God who have said in their fiery zeal, "God hates you" (addressing sinners) in the pulpit, and I think they were wrong for saying it, because the Lord never said it. Full stop.

To the sinner, God was and is most compassionate. He loves the vile sinner in a way that is not our way. Remember, men who knew the word of God very well picked up stones of hatred to kill a woman, but the Lord let her go with stoneless hands of compassion. I choose to follow the stoneless man, because he is my example. He was the Lord and he lives in me today still with stoneless hands.

To the sinner, God was and is most compassionate. He loves the vile sinner in a way that is not our way. Remember, men who knew the word of God very well picked up stones of hatred to kill a woman, but the Lord let her with stoneless hands of compassion. I choose to follow the stoneless man, because he is my example.

Good point Paul,

Jesus shows us the way that we should act towards others, because all of us are guilty and how can we not show mercy who have received mercy ourselves. We are to let vengence belong unto the Lord. And we must have the spirit of the publican and not the pharisee.

But we must remember that the only way that any of us have received of mercy ourselves is soley because of Christ. That He the Innocent One, became sin, became a curse, suffered and died not only physically , but suffered unknown agony in His soul seperated from the Father. Being rejected of evil men, but also crushed and smitten by God who is Just. He was the propitiation for our sins and the wrath of God.

If it were not for this none of us here could even speak of grace or of God's love for us. I think we should warn sinners to flee from the wrath to come,with earnestness but great humility, but we must make it clear how we ourselves deserved it apart from God's grace. True grace never produces self righteousness, but rather fear and love for the Lord. And we can sinners that if they have union with Christ there is love unspeakable and joy abounding , but it is all in Christ. He is the only city of refuge from what we deserve.

brother Paul west, with all due respect, it seems to me that your posts here have not been balanced Scripturally, even in considering the life and example of Jesus alone.

It is Christ who warned of the punishment of hell more than the glories of heaven and more than any other prophet in Scripture.

Jesus said, "God so loved the world".

He also said, "And do not fear those that can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell."

Christ did not only preach on the love of God but also His just punishment of evildoers. We would do well to include that in our preaching along with God's love. I'm reminded of the warning in Revelation 22 where we are warned of adding or taking away from Scripture.

The word wrath in John 3:36 is from the Greek word "orge" which means fierce anger or passion. It does not say God's wrath remains on the sin only, but on the unbeliever. It is speaking of the righteous indignation of an offended holy Creator against sin and sinners.

To say that we can only learn from the example of the preaching and ministry of Christ is to put Him against John the Baptist, Paul, and the other prophets and apostles. This is a serious danger. Many today in liberal churches try to do that. They say in essence, "we should heed Jesus more than Paul or vice versa.

Friend, I don't think you've been understanding my posts. I also think you've been confusing hatred with justice. Of course, the Lord spoke of God's justice and wrath and fierce indignation upon evildoers, but the concept of "hatred toward sinners" is not found in the ministry of Christ; in fact, it is the opposite. He is portrayed as the "friend of sinners" and was, interestingly enough, persecuted by religious people for being too merciful toward them and not exhibiting the "hatred" they thought he should.

There were a lot of sinners in Jerusalem that wouldn't come to Jesus. When he shed tears over for them not recognising their day of visitation, were his tears that of hatred, or that of love? Here we see his blanket response over an entire city of evildoers. Earlier, at the beginning of his ministry, he taught his disciples to love their enemies, and not hate them, in the context of being "perfect" like his Father. If God hates sinners in the sense you think he does, and yet teaches us to love our enemies, we have a great contradiction. But you and I both know there are no contradictions in scripture. What has been lacking in this thread is the distinction between hatred and justice. This is the nexus of our dilemma.

I am not a follower of John the Baptist, nor of the prophets. I follow Christ, and I fear God. I find no contradiction by modeling my life after Christ. I don't condone sin and I've always taught that hellfire is literal, and that God's wrath on those who die in their sin is incomprehensibly terrible, yet perfectly just. But I will not tell someone "God hates you", nor teach that sinners are hated wholescale by Jesus' Father. Show me one post of mine in this thread where I've been unscriptural or imbalanced by saying God is kind and compassionate toward sinners. Also, show me where Christ or Paul or John or Peter preached God's blanket hatred (as opposed to justice) toward sinners. I ask this of you respectfully.

Josef, I understand the importance of knowing all of God's attributes but I'm curious, what drew you to Christ? Was it condemnation or was it the promise of new life? Was it the angry older brother or was it the thought of the Father waiting at the door for you to come even in your ignorance so far away?

In Christ,

Ron

Paul, in the original post Josef83 pointed out clearly from Scripture that God has a holy hatred/indignation/wrath against not only sin but sinners. He was combatting the nice sounding but unbiblical cliche' which says "God hates the sin but not the sinner."

In many of the posts that have followed there has been a clear attack on the Scriptural truths in the original post. Some of those attacks have come from you. To the best of my knowledge or rememberance you had not even mentioned the wrath of God prior to your last reply. All you kept pointing out was the love of God and that is why I stated it seemed unbalanced. The wrath of God against sinners is what this whole thread is mainly about and many have come against it.

What has been lacking in this thread is a clear distiction between hatred and justice. This is the nexus of our dilemma.

I think you hit a nail on the head there. Some, like Adam Clarke, would say that God's wrath or justice is completely devoid of any emotions from God. But that is not true biblically as Josef83 showed clearly from Scripture. As I pointed out in my last reply, the Greek word for wrath has the idea of an emotional fury.

Our problem is that we confuse God's wrath with human wrath which the Bible condemns. We confuse His righteous anger/wrath/hatred/indignation with human hatred. But his wrath is much different than ours.

There were a lot of sinners in Jerusalem that wouldn't come to Jesus. When he shed tears over for them not recognising their day of visitation, were his tears that of hatred, or that of love? Here we see his blanket response over an entire city of evildoers.

Yet we are also told that He pronounced a judgment or curse on them at the same time that He wept.

If God hates sinners in the sense you think he does, and yet teaches us to love our enemies, we have a great contradiction.

God does not teach us to hate sinners anymore than He teaches us to execute wrath or justice on them. His wrath and justice are His own and not ours to express against sinners. He both loves and rigteously hates them, but He commands us do the loving and to leave the wrath to Him alone. Scripture declares "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”(Romans 12:19)

I am not a follower of John the Baptist, nor of the prophets. I follow Christ, and I fear God. I find no contradiction by modeling my life after Christ

That's fine brother I will agree that Christ is the best model for us. But my concern was in demeaning the other prophets or apostles and rejecting any learning from their example. Christ said that if we keep His Word then we are truly His disciples. I am sure you would agree that Paul's and the other apostles' and prophets' words given to us are also Christ's Word. My point was that all Scripture is God-breathed and we cannot pick and choose some parts over others.
Blessings,
Oracio

hi, as a babe in Christ i learned to read the red and go to bed. when you pour over the gospels and learn who Jesus is you will see who the Father is.Jesus wrath was against money makers in the temple and real biblical zealots called the pharisees and scribes who would agree that God hates sinners... but ,while we were yet sinners Christ died for us...He fellowshipped wth sinners... his mercies are new every morning...Jesus has already conquered sin satan and the grave and the wrath of the Father has already been poured out on the sin of man. IT IS GRACE, GRACE GRACE...radical grace that Jesus provides thru faith in His finished work. jimp

He was combatting the nice sounding but unbiblical cliche' which says "God hates the sin but not the sinner."

God hates sin, but loved us while we were yet sinners. I'm sorry, but you have to do something with that verse, and all the other verses which speak of compassion, love and mercy for sinner. You'll have to do something with all of Jesus Christ's tokens of mercy toward sinners, which bespeak not of hatred, but of incredible love. Remember, hatred is not the same as justice served. Sinners are under the wrath and condemnation of God, this what Christ was referring to, to which you interpret as God's "hatred for sinners". The judge does not emotionally hate the murderer; he takes a neutral stance in court. After the judgment, however, the wrath of his justice is poured out. This is what many believers do not understand. Have you ever heard of someone getting saved because they thought God hated them? It looks good on paper, but in reality, it is the love of God and goodness toward sinners that leads to repentance.

God loves sinners, and he died for them, so they might not perish under the divine wrath of his justice. This is gospel. It is infinitely easier for me to show God blanketly loves sinners from scripture, than for you to show that he hates them. But we can both agree that his justice and wrath is served on both sin and sinner if the latter perishes in the former.

Paul, your first point in your last reply applies only to the born again child of God who is no longer abiding under the wrath of God. For the unconverted there is a mixture of God's love/compassion/mercy/grace and his wrath/anger/indignation/hatred. This is crystal clear in the whole counsel of God.

On that point we will have to agree to disagree I guess.

Jesus-Is-God, one thing that discourages me from participating in these forums is when I see Christians(true or false) deny,attack, and/or water down the clear teaching of God's Word after being provided plenty of Scriptural proof regarding a particular subject(which Josef83 did in the op).

For that reason I will gracefully bow out of this thread.

Oh, one last thing :). We cannot make the mistake of seperating the God of the OT from the God of the NT for they are one and the same yesterday today and forever. His attributes change not though the outworkings of His sovereign plan may be different in the two ages of the Old and New Covenants. Even in the New Testament we see the same attributes of divine wrath as we see in the OT.

Many in the liberal and/or emergent movement try to make that distintiction and completely remove any thoughts of God's wrath. Lets not fall into that trap. Yes of course God is love but He is also a consuming fire and it is a fearful thing to fall into His hands.

God bless you all as you continue to seek Him in truth.
Oracio

Savanna,

The rich young ruler is the young man in mark 10:17-22. I really don't know why I called him "rich young ruler", I guess I've just heard him called that before. But the point I was making was that Jesus loved him even though he would not follow Him. God does not only love the "elect" and hate the rest as John Owen and some others were quoted as saying. Even if the young man never repented and is in hell, justly suffering the wrath of God, does not mean God didn't love him and send Christ to save him. But Jesus reminds us "how hardly shall the rich enter the kingdom of God"! If God only loved those He decided He was gonna save, He wouldn't have loved this young man. But Christ did indeed die for him, and all the world is loved by God, who desires all men to be saved (1Tim. 2:4)

hi, if you say how much God hates sinners then you have no gospel for sinners are condemned already.i would rather err on the other side by stating that God loves the sinner so much that he gave His Son to die for them.it is all about covenant..Jesus was the covenant maker,the covenant cutter(very God and very mans blood being poured out andmixed)the covenant keeper...forever making intercession for us who believe.jimp

Bro. Paul West,
Thank you for your comments! They are very encouraging!

Jimp,
I agree with that very much.

I haven't read through much of this thread, but I have a question/suggestion:

Can the original poster (or a moderator) RENAME this thread?

I hate seeing "GOD HATES THE SINNERS" on the home page of SermonIndex. Regardless of what we think on the subject, I feel that it gives a strange opinion to people (including young Christians and unbelievers) who happen to land on this website.

The title of this thread reminds me of that crazy Westboro Baptist Church that parades around the nation emphasizing what they think to be the "hate" of God.

Is it possible to rename this thread to something else (e.g. "Does God hate sinners?" or something like that)?

Thanks,
- Chris
Romans 5:8
John 3:15-17

Perhaps in this thread we need to study and meditate for a while on the exceeding sinfulness of sin. If we could get just a glimpse of a bigger picture of how horrible sin is toward an infinitely beautiful and worthy God then perhaps we would be quicker to put our hands over our mouth and say woe is me for i am undone. Would we not say as peter did depart from me Lord for I am a wicked man?

Oracio was right to say that we often confuse God's hatred for human hatred. Most of the hatred we experience from others in unjust. But God's is perfect, brilliant, just hatred for all that is evil. Would we want it any other way??
The sinner is inconsistent, he would have God to be just, and yet he would not have God to be just. He would have God to deal with all others, but for he himself, in pride, refusing to come to Christ, dares not to wish that God be just with him.

Would any christian here state that in coming to Christ in the stages of conviction that they did not begin to realize how sinful they were, both in deed but also in being? Would anyone state that their eyes were not opened to the reality that the wrath of God was upon their head, yet by mercy still withheld, but justly and surely coming like a flood?

Praise be to Jesus that it does not end there. There is no condemnation for all those in Christ Jesus. All those genuinely saved by Grace through faith, quickened by the Spirit from death in trespasses and sins.

If we think ourselves and the entire world not soo bad, not so wicked, not so apostate then it becomes more and more easy to think that God doesnt really care about sin and doesnt really have a need to hate those who do evil.

If we labor to get a deeper view of what sin is we will not be able to boast in self esteem nor would we ever question any judgement of God. Knowing the terror of the Lord would we persuade men.

Friends i believe whole heartedly that God is a God of love for He says so, but He also says that He hates all those who do evil. If you do not like this than question God. It is His Word. We are just to be His messengers.

In proclaiming the Gospel once again we must do so as publicans and not pharisees. Preaching about sin that appears self righteous isnt biblical nor Christ like. But the publicans were the ones who realized that God truly had every right to hate them and their evil deeds and realized that it was only in Grace, in Christ alone, where God's Love and Justice meet. A publican in Hell would have proclaimed that God is Good, rightoues and just and even loving. But friends, all sincere pentinants, publicans who trust in Christ unto salvation have no need to fear hell. But rather the self righteous pharisee. The law and preaching about sin and judgment is not an end in itself, but a means to be a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. Who would flee from wrath to come if they did not know there was wrath to flee from? What self seeking sin sick soul would even desire God's unmerited love unless he first come to brokeness and self loathing, to be made aware of his undoneness before Holy God. The devil has people blinded folks and oh how we need the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment. Praise be to God for Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world! For the Christ who bore our sins in His body on the tree!

I believe J-i-G is right on this one, let's stick to what Scripture proclaims about God rather what we preceive we think we know by reading commentary.

I haven't posted on this but I feel compelled to do so, as I was reading the Psalms today I came across Psalms 36 (NKJV)

1 An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes,
When he finds out his iniquity and when he hates.
3 The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit;
He has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 He devises wickedness on his bed;
He sets himself in a way that is not good;
He does not abhor evil.

These first four verse are a proclamation of the wickedness of men, this brothers and sisters is speaking of us of course apart from Christ. The religious or the drunkard are all seen in the eyes of God in this light. We are proud, boastful, we are full of wicked and deceit. We are all unwise. BUT look now at verses 5-6 and pretty much the rest of the Psalm.

"5 Your mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens;
Your faithfulness reaches to the clouds.
6 Your righteousness is like the great mountains;
Your judgments are a great deep;
O LORD, You preserve man and beast."
7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.
8 They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house,
And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures.
9 For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.
10 Oh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You,
And Your righteousness to the upright in heart.
11 Let not the foot of pride come against me,
And let not the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 There the workers of iniquity have fallen;
They have been cast down and are not able to rise."

Notice what verse 6 says "...O Lord, you preserve man and beast, this is the wicked man and the righteous man alike. We must never forget God is just, and its by His justice He will judge, BUT His justice doesn't voilate His Love. He will lovingly judge us according to His righteousness. We must also NEVER forget Man is not the only factor of wickedness in the scriptures, we can't forget the principalities and powers of the air, the demons, and Satan himself. We battle NOT flesh and blood but these powers according to Paul in Ephesians 6:10-20

God will be faithful in His Justice but for now it is a time of mercy and WE must act accordingly for even NOW God perserves the wicked by blessing them with breathe each day and life, though they dwell in the death of the first Adam. We are proclaimers of that Mercy, the Gospel, which is GOOD NEWS, God hates you is hardly good news.

"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God."

"O Lord, I have heard your speech and was afraid; O Lord, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make it known; In wrath remember mercy." (Habakkuk 3:2).

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

"Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" - James 2:13 (NIV)

Psalm 2 (King James Version)

Psalm 2

1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Read Hebrews 1 in light of Psalms 2, this is speaking of Christ

God hates all workers of iniquity; but yet in great unmerited inherent love He has made one way of reconciliation. CHRIST. Enough love to save a billion worlds of sin. Heaven and Hell are both eternal, does not this alone prove the point? We must recognize the whole council of God. What made the propitiation of Jesus Christ necessary???? We do great harm if we only speak of the Wrath of God, but we equally do great harm if we do the opposite as well. Does not true love tell the truth?? As Robert Murray McCheyne said "True love always warns". Who would want a doctor who would not tell the truth in love? Not me. I can't necessarily speak for other who have posted, but I am in no way saying that we are to act in hatred toward others or that we should rant and rail with hatred in witnessing and preaching. Not in any way. Vengence is the Lord's. And Love is the Lords as well :). But we must also recognize and herald the truth, in humility but also authority and earnestnest as a means to an end. That people would repent and believe the Gospel. That God's love would be shed abroad in their heart. It may get us stoned, it may get us persecuted and killed, just ask the prophets of old. Leonard Ravenhill said " If Jesus had preached as most modern preachers do He never would have been killed".

In Salvation we must be thankful, eternally for God's wondrous, infinite love :), but also for His wrath, for I could not be set free from condemnation unless sin has been paid for by Christ. All to the Glory of God.

God is not the enemy of sinners, but the carnal mind is at emnity against God. The Father would not have sent the Son to die for the sins of mankind if He thought of them as His enemies. God dwells in the heart of the broken & the contrite, not those who are zealous as before the sons of thunder were converted; for they were ignorant of what spirit they were of. We must be careful not to esteem our doctrine more than the righteousness, mercy, Truth, & justice of the God of Love.

Why then did Christ have to die on the cross?

A JUST GOD

C.H. SPURGEON

WHEN I was under conviction of sin I had a deep and sharp sense of the justice of God. Sin, whatever it might be to other people, became to me an intolerable burden. It was not so much that I feared the wrath to come, but that I feared sin. I knew myself to be so horribly guilty that I remember feeling that if God did not punish me for sin, He ought to do so. I felt that the judge of all the earth ought to condemn such sin as mine. I sat on the judgment seat and I condemned myself to perish, for I confessed that, had I been God, I could have done no other than send such a guilty creature as I was down to the lowest hell. All the while, I had upon my mind a deep concern for the honor of God’s name and the integrity of His moral government. I felt that it would not satisfy my conscience if it could be forgiven unjustly. The sin that I had committed must be punished. But then there was the question how God could be just and yet justify me who had been so guilty. I asked my heart, “How can He be just and yet the Justifier?” (Rom 3:26). I was worried and wearied with this question; neither could I see any answer to it. Certainly I could never have invented an answer which would have satisfied my conscience.

The doctrine of the atonement is to my mind one of the surest proofs of the divine inspiration of Holy Scripture. Who would or could have thought of the just Ruler dying for the unjust rebel? This is no teaching of human mythology or dream of poetical imagination. This method of expiation is only known among men because it is a fact. Fiction could not have devised it. God Himself ordained it. It is not a matter which could have been imagined.

I had heard the plan of salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus from my youth up, but I did not know any more about it in my innermost soul than if I had been born a Hottentot. It came to me as a new revelation, as fresh as if I had never read the scriptures, that Jesus was declared to be “the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2), that God might be just.

When I was anxious about the possibility of a just God pardoning me, I understood and saw by faith that He who is the Son of God became man and, in His own blessed person, bore my sin in His own body on the tree. I saw the chastisement of my peace was laid upon Him, and with His stripes I was healed (Isa 53:5). Have you ever seen that? Have you ever understood how God can be just to the full, not remitting penalty nor blunting the edge of the sword, and yet can be infinitely merciful and can justify the ungodly who turn to Him? It was because the Son of God, supremely glorious in His matchless person, undertook to vindicate the law, by bearing the sentence due me, that therefore God is able to pass by my sin. The law of God was more vindicated by the death of Christ than it would have been had all transgressions been punished forever. For the Son of God to suffer for sin was a more glorious establishment of the government of God than for the whole race to suffer.

“Jesus has borne the death penalty on our behalf!” Behold the wonder! There He hangs upon the cross! This is the greatest sight you will ever see: Son of God and Son of man! There He hangs, bearing pains unutterable—the Just for the unjust—that He might bring us to God. Oh, the glory of that sight! The Innocent suffering! The Holy One condemned! The Ever-blessed made a curse! The Infinitely Glorious put to a shameful death! The more I look at the sufferings of the Son of God, the more sure I am that they must meet my case. Why did He suffer, if not to turn aside the penalty from us? If, then, He turned it aside by His death, it is turned aside, and those who believe in Him need not fear it. It must be so, that since expiation is made, God is able to forgive without shaking the basis of His throne or in the least degree blotting out the statute book. Conscience gets a full answer to her tremendous question. The wrath of God against iniquity, whatever that may be, must be beyond all conception terrible. Well did Moses say, “Who knoweth the power of thine anger!” (Psalm 90:11). Yet, when we hear the Lord of Glory cry, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1) and see Him yielding up the ghost, we feel that the justice of God has received abundant vindication by obedience so perfect and death so terrible, rendered by so divine a Person. If God Himself bows before His own law, what more can be done?

There is more in the atonement by way of merit than there is in all human sin by way of demerit. The great gulf of Jesus’ loving self sacrifice can swallow up the mountains of our sin, all of them. For the sake of the infinite good of this one representative Man, the Lord may well look with favor upon other men, however unworthy they may be in and of themselves. It was a miracle of miracles that the Lord Jesus Christ should stand in our stead and “bear, that we might never bear, His Fathers righteous Ire.” But He has done so. “It is finished” (John 19:30). God will save the sinner because He did not spare His Son. God can pass by your transgressions because He laid those transgressions upon His only begotten Son.

What is it to believe in Him? It is not merely to say, “He is God and the Saviour,” but to trust Him wholly and entirely, and take Him for all your salvation from this time forth and forever—your Lord, your Master, your All. If you will have the Lord Jesus, He has you already. If you believe on Him, I tell you, you cannot go to hell, for that were to make the perfect sacrifice of Christ to none effect. If the Lord Jesus Christ died in my stead, why should I die also? Every believer by faith has laid his hands on the Sacrifice, and made it his own, and therefore may rest assured that he can never perish. The Lord would not receive this offering on our behalf and then condemn us to die. The Lord cannot read our pardon written in the blood of His own Son and then smite us. That were impossible. Oh, that you may have grace given you at once to look away to Jesus, Who is the fountainhead of mercy to guilty man! Will you come into this lifeboat just as you are? Here is safety from the wreck. Accept the sure deliverance. Leap for it just as you are, and leap now!

I will tell you this thing about myself to encourage you. My sole hope for heaven lies in the full atonement made upon Calvary’s cross for the ungodly. On that I firmly rely. I have not a shadow of hope anywhere else. You are in the same condition as I am, for we, neither of us, have anything of our own worth thinking of as a ground of trust. Let us join hands and stand together at the foot of the cross and trust our souls once for all to Him who shed His blood for the guilty. We will be saved by the one and the same Saviour. If you perish trusting Him, I must perish too. What can I do more to prove my own confidence in the Gospel which is set before you?