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"A Christian's Freewill & Those Days"

S
sermonindex

Please understand that I do not possess the gift of perfect expression, but that I've only attempted here to express the thoughts and feelings of my heart only.
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Most of us have read and believe that MOST Will Fall Away during the time just prior to His Coming.

May I present my observations and beliefs of what may attribute to this great falling away? Please understand that this is based upon my "observations" over the entire time that I've been in The Church and not merely in just one location.
I was saved in Virginia Beach and there after moved quite a bit, from State to State and out of country for a while. Then, having purposely moved to the Charlotte, NC area to get away from the spiritually cold North, to the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt [Billy Graham Country, as it's called, with even a highway named after him], looking only for a church to attend - I visited many within two Counties during my 10 yr stay there.
The many of which, held to the OSAS doctrine or the full 5 pts of TULIP.

I couldn't and can't help but notice an increasing number of "believers" that are losing their faith in GOD's salvation and those who are having major struggles with their flesh abounding or not bothering to resist temptation at all.

I saw a Lot of "Good Works or Deeds" from some certain members out of each Church, but generally, no drive to go "Deeper Still" by a willingness to 'pay the price' of what that 'going deeper still' demands.

I saw a true lack in the congregations to 'know' His Word - to pull away from the things of this world, such as TV and anything else that takes away from the time that could be used for searching after the deeper things of GOD. I saw little difference in these church goers, as far as how they spent their leisure time than how the world does. I saw carnality, as some would call it. I saw a trusting in going to church on Sundays as the main "browny point" that meant to the people that they were alright with GOD, despite their actions and thought life the rest of the week. Very very little emphasis on Philipians 3:7-14. Little or none of the teachings of the total surrender of taking up one's cross or dying to self (as some would term "walking solely in obedience to the leading of His Spirit).
The few "active" Churches were mainly only "active" in good deeds.


Besides the belief that GOD will rapture those in this presently Free-Nation before they experience great persecution and possibly martyrdom - I have noticed that these are believers in one or more of the tenets of Calvinism.
Even those who hold to a sort of Post-Trib view.


Forgive me if this angers both you and me at the same time - but GOD has truly given me an over-powering love for human beings and to watch anyone person having a struggle with their salvation or flesh is grievious to me and even worse - it is contagious - in that it causes others to witness that 'Christianity' is Not that secure of a belief and that Christianity is a belief system that teaches that humans are actually robots of GOD, that GOD cannot control or 'keep'.


Please bear with me, as I express what I feel from all that I've witnessed in my mere 35 years "in the church", that makes me come to this conclusion of what the major cause of this falling away from the faith and a bad witness, both to the non-Christians and to fellow believers is. Mainly - the belief that human beings DO NOT [truly] HAVE FREEWILL regarding their final Salvation.

I had to truly deal with this myself and look at this TULIP belief objectively, with Bible Wide Open and not spare any one verse of the New Testament in this.

The "essence" of a teaching -

"Total Depravity" - Is the person believing - I have no freewill, therefore, because I'm a filthy wretch - it's ALL up to GOD to do something about that - first to save me and then to do all the continuous keeping me 'from' sinning there-after.

"Unlimited Election" - Since the person considers themselves to be specially chosen - no matter what they do or choose, they'll be saved by GOD by no choice of their own.

"Limited Attonement" - This makes those who believe they are the Elect to feel much more Special than the rest of the world. These "specially elect ones" will be saved, 'no matter what' - and the rest can go to hell, because God wants them to burn eternally in Hell, despite their possible own desire to be saved.

"Irresistable Grace" - Is the person believing that again, there's no freewill and God will save them because His grace is not resistable, because they are one of the specially chosen/elect and others are not. That they have no choice in the matter at all.

"Perseverence of the saints" - Is the person believing that, they have no freewill or OSAS, so their freewill has nothing to do with it - that only God will or can work on them, to make them live like a saint so that, if they are "tempted from their own lusts", it's up to God to do it all, because they can't stop sinning by their own choice and if they can't stop sinning - it's God's fault somehow and they'll keep saying & praying for the duration - "GOD Has To DO Something to make me stop lusting and sinning. It's ALL up to GOD."

ALL OF THE ABOVE LEAVES OUT HALF OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, or more.
(Not yelling - but there's no code for emphasis.)

What I have seen is that - ALL of the "choose ye this day" type verses from the entire Bible have been IGNORED.

All of the "Commands" of the New Testament have been IGNORED.

All of the verses that show God's invitation to 'come' unto Him have been IGNORED.

That all of the verses that tell us to take ourselves, our thoughts, our behavior and our bodies and 'choose' to control them - bring ourselves under submission, have been IGNORED.


That whenever verses stating man's responsible to submit and control his own vessel are spoken, that those who hold to anyone of the 5 pts yell - "WORKS".


That those who came to believe in Christ, basically made a "mental assent" - NOT to every written Word of the New Testament - but to 1 or more of the beliefs of TULIP.

There is So much more that can be said on this - but it is now no surprise whatsoever, that those who do not believe in freewill or for those who came to Christ under the banner of OSAS -- that came to God upon anyone of these false suppositions of no freewill, WILL have problems in these last days. When working Co-operatively with His Spirit is more important than ever before in human history - As JESUS said it will be .... because iniquity abounds, the love of most is going to and is growing cold.

No Freewill regarding "the end of our Salvation" =equals= No consistent feelings of obligation to Obedience to the 'Entire' New Testament!

No Freewill equals Easy Believism !

LORD I pray that You will remove the veil to expose that this is the lie that is causing many to stumble and fall in these days. That OSAS alone causes spiritually lazy people.
Resting on 'any' lie never Stands when the ground is shaken beneath us.

1Pe 4:17,18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Believing a person has No Freewill regarding the end of their salvation will not make one "Faithful unto the End", considering what is and what will come upon this earth before His Appearing.

I pray for all of my Friends here and everywhere, that have eaten any part of this poisonous tulip.

I pray to GOD, that my Friends will see nothing when they open their New Testaments, Except the exhortations and commands of GOD and to Only see verses that pertain to "counting the cost before coming to Him" - "man's 'responsibility' before a Holy GOD" and those verses that stress "remaining faithful".

There is this joint fellowship - this Co-operation with His Spirit - the two sided 'relationship' based upon a love for GOD, as a wife for a Husband, that we must never leave off.

As "inquity abounds" - our roots will surely need to go "deeper still" than any generation that have gone on before us, or else His Words are not true at all.


Jesus said:

Be thou Faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of Life.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

"Elect according to the 'foreknowledge' of God the Father", through sanctification of the Spirit, "unto [to/into] obedience" and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have and have had no intentions of an Arm/Cal "fight", but a discussion if anyone so desires

In His Love.

U
UntoBabes

Jesus-is God,

I have witnessed what you talk about in your observations bacause I have spent time in Calvinist churches, but I think God is raising honest voices to confront the counterfeit.

I just listened today to a sermon by a Calvinist ( haven't done that in a while) titled " Why Revival Tarries" by Alan Cairns. Despite his malicious attack at Finney, I think it was a very good sermon and worth listening to.

We must be honest though and say that the church as a whole is in a backslidden state, whether it be Roformed Baptist, penticostal, or Mennonite.

D
davym

Friend, the 'calvinism' you have outlined above could only be described as blasphemous heresy. John Calvin did not teach what you have set out and the Bible certainly doesn't teach this.

The acrostic TULIP must be considered carefully. Most of the terms create misunderstanding because they are used to fit a stupid acrostic. For example 'total depravity' suggests we are as bad as we could possibly be. It would be better termed 'radical falleness' because the teaching that, incidentally, it was created to challenge is that because of sin, our free wills(which we very much have) are incapable of trusting Christ ie the fact that we have a free will is our problem. We will always make the wrong choice, freely. Unless God does a work of grace in our hearts.

You are of course entitled to disagree with Calvinism (I prefer the term 'doctrines of grace), but be careful not to misrepresent them.

In Christ

David

U
UntoBabes

the 'calvinism' you have outlined above could only be described as blasphemous heresy.
our free wills(which we very much have) are incapable of trusting Christ
.

You mean that we are like an eagle who have a broken wing.
He has the choice to fly and break his neck.

What kind of nonesense is this?

D
davidc

Jesus is God

Paul writes of the last days in 2 Timothy: “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come” 2 Tim 3:1 (KJV). All that were in Asia had turned away from him.

But the foundation which he had laid would continue up to Christ’s coming.

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Tim 2:19 (KJV)

And today, The Lord knoweth them that are his. Even in the churches you speak of, there are those with a heart after Christ, those who depart from iniquity. And He knows them.

I see from your posting the way you have come, and so, can understand why you place the emphasis where you do. But you must agree that, free will/ choice etc system of doctrine can also lead to belivers loosing their way, not departing from iniquity, but falling away from Christ. Neither teaching is perfect or complete in itself.

But in both, the Lord knoweth them that are His.


David

T
therick2018

@ Jesus is God

I would have to respectfully disagree with the way you have portrayed the doctrines of Grace. I will not say much, there isn't much point in fanning the fires of an ancient debate. I will just make some humble points.

1. The fact that many people have laid claim to the doctrines of grace and yet ended up living in wickedness does not prove that the doctrines themselves are wrong.

2. I grew up in a very "free will oriented church" so to speak. I don't think you can say the easy believism is only a "calvinist" problem. Many non-calvinist :) have also fallen into the rut of "pray this prayer", "acknowledge these four truths" type evangelism. The root evil in easy believism is that the doctrine of regeneration is swept under the rug. And also easy believism festers greatly in places were false profession is not warned of.

3. In a christian, the doctrine of election produces great humility not pride. Esteem for God's honor for sure, but no boasting of self.

4. The Doctrine of Perserverence is that all sincere believers, through God's grace, will grow in sanctification, holiness throughout their lives. A growing of repentance and humility, more brokeness over sin yet more victory over it. Evidence of God's discipline in their life and a constant battle and struggle to make their calling and election sure.

5. In concerning the will, only God alone has a perfectly free will. He alone can do as He please and who is there who can hold back His arm? He never contradicts His moral character which is infinite in its scope and thus He is free within Himself. Man first made in the image of God has a limited will. But there are many things we may wish to do which we cannot. We are moral creatures absolutely. But upon the fall man's will became enslaved to sin. We still have a will but it loves sin and even the good things we do are done with a sinful motive. Consider a totaled vehicles where even the steering wheel and column are totally disabled. It is there, but it does no good. We resist God's will from day one, dead in sin. The beautiful thing is that the way God saves a person is that He regenerates them and persuades and enables the will to turn to Him in faith. An irresistible drawing made effectual by God.

Jeremiah 24:7 (New American Standard Bible)

7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Jer 32:38-40
"They shall be My people, and I will be their God;

39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.

40"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

S
sermonindex

And here I sit listening to my favorite radio station that's strictly Reformed theology and being a member of a Reformed theology pca church. :)

Rather than go point for point, I'd rather just give you my observations again, that prompted this thread and my understanding from The Word, who the Elect are.

What prompted this thread, as you've already noted, was that those who I am aware of that are wondering if they're saved and seeming to be losing the battle over one lust or another are believers in Eternal Security, which cannot go hand in hand with the belief of man having a freewill.

Most all are basically blaming GOD, that He hasn't "delivered" them nor "made Himself real" to them.

This began to truly puzzle me, because if they believed truly in their own Eternal Security, there would be nothing coming from them continually questioning their own salvation.

My question is - How many "commands" and "if you will" type verses do we see in the N.T.?
How many other type "commands" does the Apostles put into their Epistles that prove that there Must be freewill in each of us, to chose to either obey or not?

For the life of me, I cannot find any indication that man does not have freewill from reading the Word faithfully.

Jesus even said: "If any man wills to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Can you see the freewill even there? And yes, we do see this also in Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Who are willing? Yes, the elect. But who are the elect?

Three times in the N.T. The LORD tells us "those who He foreknew".

Those who He "foreknew", that would be faithful unto death, are the elect and are eternally secure.

S
sermonindex

Hi UntoBabes. I agree with you. That's why I can sit under a Reformed Pastor.

And yes, I see all denominations covered in the apostasy, but those that I personally know and have puzzled me most, that are crying out for help, just happen to be those who either believe in osas or no-freewill and because of that - have not felt the need to press-in, but are of the belief that it is all GOD's fault - though they're not using those very words.

A free-willer knows it's their own choice to fall away.

Blessings to you!

T
therick2018

A biblical calvinist will not blame God for his sin. But he realizes that apart from the grace of God he has no hope. Apart from Christ he can do nothing. There are two biblical truths that we must recognize. God is Sovereign, that means ,Sovereign, and secondly Man is Responsible. Our finite minds are incabable of understanding how these two truths can be reconciled. But that does not negate that they are true. But neither can we understand how God can make something from nothing. Neither can we understand how God is eternal and without change. But with Him all things are possible. I could easily post many scriptures clearly stating that we are saved by God's grace alone, not by the will of man or flesh. There is much also to support security in Christ, evidenced by a perservering toward the goal, we must always remember the Grace is the root of the fruit. what do i have that i have not been given?

Here is a little mantra that helps me, i can have fellowship with any arminian provided he believes that salvation is by God's grace alone, not man's will or flesh, and also with any calvinist who believes wholeheartedly in proclaiming the Gospel to all people. :)

I shall say no more, perhaps i have said too much already

S
sermonindex

I probably should have stated straight out that I wouldn't call myself Arminian.

My problem is, not seeing "no freewill", from the O.T. through to the Revelation. I see freewill everywhere in the Book and with it, "obedience".

Oh, I definitely believe we are saved by grace through faith - but this faith is a continuous action and a verb to my understanding. Believing or faith produces the works of obedience that an unregenerate man cannot do without the indwelling of His Spirit and by His Faith within.

What has troubled me, is when we would post the upteen many verses that are seen as commands to obedience, as I mentioned in the OP, the shout of "WORKS" would be thrown at us.

No, you haven't said too much. You're my Brother.

C
Christinyou

therick2018

You said enough. Amen

This is not of my words, but speak to where my heart is coming from. Albert Barnes says it much better than I can.
I do agree whole-heartedly.

"""According to the ((((foreknowledge)))) of God the Father. The Father is regarded, in the Scriptures, as the Author of the plan of salvation, and as having chosen his people to life, and given them to his Son to redeem and save, Joh 6:37; 17:2,6,11. It is affirmed here that the fact that they were elect was in some sense in accordance with the "foreknowledge of God." On the meaning of the phrase, Cmt. on Ro 8:29. The passage does not affirm that the thing which God "foreknew," and which was the reason of their being chosen, was, that they would of themselves be disposed to embrace the offer of salvation. The foreknowledge referred to might have been of many other things as constituting the reason which operated in the case; and it is not proper to assume that it could have been of this alone. It may mean that God foreknew all the events which would ever occur, and that he saw reasons why they should be selected rather than others; or that he foreknew all that could be made to bear on their salvation; or that he foreknew all that he would himself do to secure their salvation; or that he foreknew them as having been designated by his own eternal counsels; or that he foreknew all that could be accomplished by their instrumentality; or that he saw that they would believe; but it should not be assumed that the word means necessarily any one of these things. The simple fact here affirmed, which no one can deny, is, that there was foreknowledge in the case on the part of God. It was not the result of ignorance or of blind chance that they were selected. But if foreknown, must it not be certain? How could a thing which is foreknown be contingent or doubtful? The essential idea here is, that the original choice was on the part of God, and not on their part, and that this choice was founded on what he before knew to be best. He undoubtedly saw good and sufficient reasons why the choice should fall on them. I do not know that the reasons why he did it are revealed, or that they could be fully comprehended by us if they were. I am quite certain that it is not stated that it is because they would be more disposed of themselves to embrace the Saviour than others; for the Scriptures abundantly teach, what every regenerated person feels to be true, that the fact that we are disposed to embrace the Saviour is to be traced to a Divine influence on our hearts, and not to ourselves. See Joh 6:65; Ro 9:16; Tit 3:5; Ps 110:2-3."""
end

Forknowledge; Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Praise God for His Good Pleasure of His Will.

I have also said too much, This argument has been hashed 2000 years. I just believe God did it and I had nothing to do with my election. His foreknowledge certainly could see I would never be able to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is now my Savior, God and Brother to our Father, by whom I now believe.

Sanctification?

In Christ: By God's birthing of the Incorruptable Seed Jesus Christ in me. The Mystery revealed by and to Paul.

I am Born Again. By a Fathers Seed, "Christ in you the hope of glory".

S
sermonindex

At this point, I could post a bunch of Robert Shank who would easily explain the words "predestined", "chosen" and "elect" but this is not the direction my heart had or has intended.

My hopes were that those who are of these beliefs and are struggling with their walks would post here and try to make sense of the cause of their struggling.

I 'know' the teachings Brothers - it's my concern over those who are falling or think that they are, that believe this teaching that concerns me.

IF I were overly concerned with the teaching itself, why on earth would I have joined myself to the type of church I belong to?

Sigh!

It's late here. Maybe tomorrow will bring better light to this thread.


GOD Bless all!

S
savannah


The Oxymoronic Concept of Free-Will in Human Beings as Taught by Many in Christendom.

Choose - To select from a number of possible alternatives (The American Heritage college Dictionary).

Seth Lloyd, an expert on quantum computing and professor of mechanical engineering at the Mass. Institute of Technology said in a NY Times article that, “If by free will you mean the ability to choose, then a simple laptop computer has some kind of free will.”

Free - not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being. (Webster’s Collegiate).

Will - the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. (American Heritage).

Free will - 1. the ability or discretion to choose; free choice.

Free will - 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or even divine will. (American Heritage College Dictionary)

Free will - freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. (Webster)

Even scientists recognize the illogical reasoning of free-willism. Even Albert Einstein who did not speak until 3 years of age.

Causation - “Every Cause has an Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to law; Chance is but a name for law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the law.”

“The Principle of Cause and Effect-embodies the truth that law pervades the universe; that nothing happens by Chance.”

“Chance is merely a term, indicating that a cause existed, but not recognized or perceived. That phenomenon is continuous and without break or exception.”

Now that is good science and good logic.

The Principle of Cause and Effect underlies all scientific thought, ancient and modern, and was enunciated by the Essenic Teachers in the earliest days. While many and varied disputes between the many schools of thought have since arisen, these disputes have been principally upon the details of the operations of the Principle, and still more often upon the meaning of certain words. The underlying Principle of Cause and Effect has been accepted as correct by practically all the thinkers of the world worthy of the name. To think otherwise would be to take the phenomena of the universe from the domain of law and Order, and to relegate it; to the control of the imaginary something which men have called “chance.”

About 425 BC the greek philosopher Socrates propounded this method of argument modernly called, ‘The Law of Cause and Effect.’

Socrates was put to death partly for his diehard view of this one solid fundamental principle called ‘The Law of Cause and Effect.’

People experience free will. They have the sense they are free. Yet reality teaches otherwise. Free-will is merely a feeling which humans delude themselves into thinking they have and that it exists.

Self determination is a real and powerful reality. But in reality it is just that. It is self determining. What self wills. We are all filled with self-will. Not free-will as understood and defined by most.

Another has said, “that a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.”

And then goes on to say, "If free means without a cause, then you can make choices, but you can’t make ‘free’ choices, because there is no such thing. If free will is something one controls, then by its very nature it is not free. It is a self-contradictory term, it’s an oxymoron, it’s like dark light, cold hot, or true lies, it’s a square circle."

In the universe, you either have determinism or randomness and both are bad news for free will.

“I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.It’s an illusion, but it’s a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magician’s trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know it’s a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesn’t go away.”

I purposely have chosen the approach above. And I did it freely and willingly. As one of His children, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, I do as I do freely and willingly. Those not predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, also do as they do freely and willingly. God accomplishes His will and purpose through every creature He has made for His own glory. I do His will in and by faith out of love,whereas God accomplishes His will through them and their evil, in spite of them, and in spite of their hatred of Him in their hearts.

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

It is certain that God needs neither you nor I to defend Him and what He has done,is doing, and will do,and that, from all eternity.


J
Josef83

Its kinda weird to compare calvinism as a fall away.
calvinism was before arminians.
and most famous missonaries, theologians and psalm writter of olden day where all calvinists.

famous calvinists are : John Bunyan author of pilgrims progress, John Newton author of amazing Grace, William Carrey the missonary father who went to India. Adinoram Judson the Burma missonary. Charles Spurgeon the prince of preachers. George whitefield and Jonathan Edwards, John Gill a famous baptist theologian and John Knox the scottish reformer.
The first baptists in my counry that came here years 1845 where also calvinists.
Then George Muller was a lutheran they have almost the same theology as the calvinists.
Todays calvinists : John MacArthur, Paul Washer, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Conway etc.
then most people that ever managed to write systematic theology are either calvinists, puritans or Lutherans.
and last but not least Augustine who put the bible canon together was a calvinist.
Puritans had same doctrines as the calvinist do not forget that.

S
sermonindex


From here, it's going to have to be SOLA SCRIPTURA or nothing.

Nothing that I've read on this one page moves me in the slightest except to disgust me at man's words and increased my desire for The WORD of GOD more than ever.
It hit me earlier. I went off this site and all that I heard on the radio was people's doctrines read from Catechisms, etc. ... men's words ... men's translations of GOD's WORDS and I began to get literally sickened in heart. Grieved that His Word is being replaced by men's endless drivel. And seeing all over the net that these endless drivels are everywhere and dividing the Body of Christ because humans cannot stay with just the Word alone.
Debates that only consist of my commentator against yours.
Verses taken out of context, no cross-reference research, no word by word exegesis anymore - just pull a verse and write an essay from that one verse, forming the doctrine of our 'choice' or quotes from other men.
His Word speaks for itself and I plan to allow it to do so.
"Sola Scriptura" - We have Not practiced.
We've been deceived by using latin words and then doing the opposite.
Say you believe "Sola Scriptura" and then write whole books of men's words and call them Catechisms, or Systematic Theology and so forth. What a lie we've been fed. Whether it's from Calvin or Finney, whomever, we need His Word alone when it has to do with spiritual life or death doctrines - in context, cross-referenced, exegeted, word-studied and nothing more and nothing less.
[Eccl 12:12] "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Boy, now that's the truth.

J
Josef83

the term sola scriptura actually also came from the reformers, Luther, Calvin and Knox.
It was because of sola scriptura that luther and calvin stood against the pope and papacy.
and if we should be sola scriptura the word in 1 petr 1:2
about foreknowledge is in greek prognosis and can mean decided in before hans also.
my countries bible do not use the term "foreknowledge"
it uses the term "predestined"
God foreknew because he had elected already.
even if he "saw into the future" he stil knew who would accept him because he had already elected them he wrote them up in the book of life before the foundation of this world rev 17:8.
Why would man "accept christ" now when we did not in the old covernant?
if there is no election there is no salvation.
even if you elect according to forknowledge wich some claim. it is stil an election and predestination.
but thoose saying God elected according to foreknowledge who he knew would accept him. that condradicts the bible that God elects according to his will not ours.
We do not elect ourselves.
Remeber Israel where elected, no other people nor country where elected to be Gods People.

either you belive or not there is nothing in between.
here comes the gift of faith, will you belive that you will belive? or will you choose not to belive or not?
If I tell you my name is Josef either you belive or not.
there is nothing in between.
no either you belive or u do not belive.
How can you choose this? either you belive but even if you doubt and not fully belive then you do not belive.
you cannot choose to belive this or not.
if man would accept christ without an election then whats the purpose of the cross?
that option was also in the old covernant.
people could choose good and god and nobody did because they where bound to sin.
the free will is bound into the will of sin.
there is either an election 100% from God according to his will and man has nothing to do with it.
or salvation is some part God and the rest is man.
but then man would get the glory and not God.
And salvation would come from the man,
and we all know from old testament that man cannot save himself.
therefore people dont like calvinism because its an offence to the carnal mind that dont want to give worship to a God that elects some and other not.
Israel was choosen and egypt was not.
same today some are elected and therefore they will belive.
others and not elected and therefore they will not belive.
otherwise God would not be sovereign and almighty.
A God that did acually put 2 trees in the garden and knew they would eat it and knew people would go to hell.
And God even created satan and knew he would rebel.
If God is 100% almighty and sovereign, everything will go according to his plan and thoose elected will belive or are you saying God could fail? are you saying God is not sovereign nor have control over his creation or what is happening around him?.


/Josef


U
UntoBabes

That is truly sad that every time Jesus-is God asks for Biblical verses someone posts a bunch of human reasonings.

Why don't you list Scriptural verses? What is so hard about that?

I know savannah have posted a a long post a while back about the depravity of the will. but they were taken out of context, and way too many to try to answer every one of them. why not post one verse at a time and give the chance for the other person to reply. I think that is fair and that is what JiG is asking for.

D
davym

What are we actually discussing here?

It seems to be just a mish mash of thoughts on Calvinism and freewill with a lot of misunderstanding and jargon.

S
sermonindex

I suppose reading, studying and learning from Scripture alone and not what we learned from books is impossible in these days.
I've never been more convinced of that than I am today.

L
looserchapel

Some thoughts,

calvinism was before arminians. and most famous missonaries, theologians and psalm writter of olden day where all calvinists.

I don't understand your point, do you imply that the elder MUST be "better" than the later? what about the RCC then?? Regarding the "great missionary", what about John Wesley, William booth,C.T Studd, Watchman Nee, Charles Finney and his Great Revival and the others??
For Great preachers: Ravenhill, Tozer, Reidhead, Wilkerson,etc.
I think- and I am more and more convinced- that God does NOT actually check whether His man believe in the "Doctrine of Grace" before He uses such a man, but rather check whether the same is deeply humbled and understand how weak he is without God, that's what Hudson Taylor said before he reached China, I've never heard a great man of God (even Charles Spurgeon) stating that God uses him because he was calvinist, i.e better...


and last but not least Augustine who put the bible canon together was a calvinist.

Sir, Augustine must NOT have been calvinist, was Abraham a jew, or Levi a great sacrificator??? That said, I think Augustine theology differs a little bit from that of calvinist, e.g, He believed that the elects are taken from the regenerated (that brings a better alternative to calvinist -HUGE- difficulties to explain the warnings against falling away from the faith found in the bible, the parable of the sower, Heb 6:6, Mat 24:13, Revelations 3:5 ) regarding Luther, I am sorry sir but he only believed 3 out of the 5 points of the "doctrine of grace".

Sir, my attempt is not to bring disgrace on calvinism, i actually like the Piper, Washer, Mc Arthur (until i knew he pledged to demolish Finney's testimony and theology who does not fit with the "doctrine of grace"), Alistair Begg, etc. but I have noticed that the "die hard" are mostly found in the calvinist camp and i wonder if this attitude is actually a "coerced" one, i.e that it is God's will

Blessings,

L
looserchapel

You mean that we are like an eagle who have a broken wing. He has the choice to fly and break his neck. What kind of nonesense is this?

@ UntoBabes: for me it makes sense, I mean, I understand our "free will" in a way that we cannot choose but EVIL if we are left alone. I think, Adam and Eve was the last human being to ever have the "free will" to do good or bad things, quite ironic since they were told NOT to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil... Nevertheless, I believe that we still have this "will" and we are to subject the same under Jesus' Lordship (that's why we are not dropped died right after we recieve Jesus but we have to persevere => to kill the self, i.e our self centered will), how? it is Jesus' work, we "just" have to follow and submit to Him.
A last question to my calvinists brothers, if we have no will at all and God coerces us to love Him, why do He still teach us the "Pater", i.e "Your will be done"?? for me it is clear that we are NOT able to do his will, i.e, we don't will to submit to His, no??

Blessings,

U
UntoBabes

looserchapel,

Your post has only proved that the nature of the creature has no bearing on his ability to make choice. If that was the case, then Adam and Eve would not have choosen to disobey God since they were created upright, Lucifer would have not chosen to rebel since he was created perfect morally, Solomon in all his wisdom would not have chosen foolishly to worship foreign gods.. On the other hand the prostitutes and tax collectors would not have chosen Christ in their sinful state.

The moral uprightness or corruption of the creature has no bearing on His ability to make choice.

Again I raise this question. When Jesus told the young rich man to go sell all he has and follow Him.
Why did he not do it?
Was it that he couldn't do it or was it that he did not want to do it? In other words, was it a matter of depravity or inability. I believe that man is born depraved, but not without the ability to choose.

In the case of the example of the eagle, it is a matter of inability. the eagle can not fly even if he wants to. Rather, the Bible ( when taken within the context) says that those who do not choose Christ can do it but do not want to.

There is a world of difference.

S
sermonindex

"Heresies, Heresy, Sects" of Any kind.

G139
αιρεσις
hairesis
Total KJV Occurrences: 9
sect, 5
Act_5:17, Act_26:5 (3), Act_28:22
heresies, 3
1Co_11:19, Gal_5:20, 2Pe_2:1
heresy, 1
Act_24:14

Strong's Definition

G139
αιρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
FROM G138; properly , that is,"A CHOICE" (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): - heresy, sect.

"From G138" -
αιρέομαι
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; TO TAKE FOR ONESELF, that is, TO PREFER. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ελλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - CHOOSE.

Thayer Definition:

1) TO TAKE FOR ONESELF, TO PREFER, CHOOSE

2) TO CHOOSE by vote, elect to office

Part of Speech: verb

THIS is an act of man's FREEWILL.


FREEWILL is shown throughout GOD's WORD from the Garden as UntoBabes clearly brings out from Genesis to the very last chapter of The Revelation, when even after the millenial reign, when Satan is loosed, people "choose" to side with him against a ruling and reigning Christ Who's been with them on earth for 1000 years.


"CHOOSE" ye this day whom ye will serve!" and believe HIS WORD ALONE or the writings of man.


When Jesus warned against "being deceived", there MUST be an ACT of man's Freewill, in order to "CHOOSE" which belief they will "Take for themselves".

The LORD would never put warnings, nor commands out to us if we did not have the ability to CHOOSE.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the LOVE of many shall wax cold.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 LET 'NO MAN' DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY [Apostasy from The Truth = G646], AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His Mouth, and shall destroy with the Brightness of His Coming:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH (by "choice"), but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

- or - those who 'choose' to not obey the 'command' to "Love not this world, neither the things in it" for the love of this present world is contrary to the love of and longing for His Return.


Apostasy 'from' The WORD of GOD - Both Christ and His WORD.


"Apostasy - Falling Away"

G646
αποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the SAME AS G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

G647
αποστάσιον
apostasion
ap-os-tas'-ee-on
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.


G647
αποστάσιον
apostasion
Total KJV Occurrences: 3

"DIVORCEMENT",

Mat_5:31, Mat_19:7, Mar_10:4


What does this word "Divorcement" say in regards to the marriage relationship?


Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

C
Christinyou

Question about birthing children.

Did our biological fathers consult with us, did we want to be born?

Does our Heavenly Father consult and get our permission to give rebirth, do we want to be reborn?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This Word is the living Logos of God that John speaks to in John 1. He is the Word, (same word LOGOS)He is God, He is by whom we are Born Again of Incorruptable Seed by; "the Word of God". Jesus Christ our Hope of Glory, In Christ we are and He in us. Lest how can Father call us son's of God.

This Mystery was revealed to Paul and He preaches it to Us.

Paul never says "born again", Paul calls it the Mystery and it fulfills the Word of God. "Christ in you".

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What is flesh is flesh and what is Spirit is Spirit, with the Spirit of Christ in us, we did not choose Him but He chose us.

In Christ:

S
sermonindex

Does our Heavenly Father consult and get our permission to give rebirth, do we want to be reborn?

What can I say about this question Philip?

No - HE forces it on people whether they want it or not.

:o/

S
sermonindex


If Jesus 'tells' or actually states it in such words - those words demand a decision.

If I say to you - You MUST get down to the police dept and I tell you why - that demands an action on your part.

Can you see that we are involved in this process?

That if we leave off the person's freewill - then how I answered above would indeed be the case.

He wants a Bride that Loves Him of her own freewill not some mail order or robot Bride.


Sigh. Just my thoughts - since most of the Word speaks of Him being our marriage partner. Our Husband.

S
sermonindex

I know from debates over these issues in the past - though not here - that those who claim "sola scriptura" cannot stay long defending their view with Scripture only.

This is the second thread where there's been no response to Scripture, so in return for Albert Barnes, I'll post the ECF's --- before Augustine's time. Though I must add, this is not my chosen way to post. I'd prefer just Scripture, but some of these men were discipled by the Apostles.


Clement of Rome (AD30-100)

"On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves? and become a sign to all succeeding generations." (Clement, Epistle to the Corinthians, XI)


Ignatius (AD30-107)

"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men — the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)


Barnabas (AD100)

"The Lord will judge the world without respect of persons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Epistle of Barnabas, IV)


Justin Martyr (AD 110-165)

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." (Justin, First Apology, XLIII)

"For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. and this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both (virtue and vice). And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitious in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructable, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice or virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense." (Justin Second Apology, VII)

"Could not God have cut off in the beginning the serpent, so that he exist not, rather than have said, ‘And I will put enmity between him and the woman, and between his seed and her seed?’ Could He not have at once created a multitude of men? But yet, since He knew that it would be good, He created both angels and men free to do that which is righteous, and He appointed periods of time during which He knew it would be good for them to have the exercise of free-will; and because He likewise knew it would be good, He made general and particular judgments; each one’s freedom of will, however, being guarded." (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 102)

"I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’ that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them." (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 141)

"Here, then, is a proof of virtue, and of a mind loving prudence, to recur to the communion of the unity, and to attach one’s self to prudence for salvation, and make choice of the better things according to the free-will placed in man; and not to think that those who are possessed of human passions are lords of all, when they shall not appear to have even equal power with men." (Justin, On the Sole Government of God, VI)


Irenaeus (AD120-202)

"This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honor,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honor, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

"But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets. ... No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. ... But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

"And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee; “ thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.”" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. IV, 37)

"Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven. If then the advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all, but is for the purpose of judging, and separating the believing from the unbelieving, since, as those who believe do His will agreeably to their own choice, and as, [also] agreeably to their own choice, the disobedient do not consent to His doctrine; it is manifest that His Father has made all in a like condition, each person having a choice of his own, and a free understanding; and that He has regard to all things, and exercises a providence over all, "making His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sending rain upon the just and unjust."

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, "He that believeth in Me is not condemned," that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, "He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;" that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. "For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. V, XXVII)


Tatian (AD110-172)

"Why are you fated to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we Ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it." (Tatian, Address to the Greeks, XI)


Tertullian (AD145-220)

"Moreover, man thus constituted will be protected by both the goodness of God and by His purpose, both of which are always found in concert in our God. For His purpose is no purpose without goodness; nor is His goodness without a purpose, except forsooth in the case of Marcion’s God, who is purposelessly good, as we have shown. Well, then, it was proper that God should be known; it was no doubt a good and reasonable thing. Proper also was it that there should be something worthy of knowing God. What could be found so worthy as the image and likeness of God? This also was undoubtedly good and reasonable. Therefore it was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with a free will and a mastery of himself; so that this very thing — namely, freedom of will and self-command — might be reckoned as the image and likeness of God in him. For this purpose such an essence was adapted to man as suited this character, even the afflatus of the Deity, Himself free and uncontrolled. But if you will take some other view of the case, how came it to pass that man, when in possession of the whole world, did not above all things reign in self-possession — a master over others, a slave to himself? The goodness of God, then, you can learn from His gracious gift to man, and His purpose from His disposal of all things. At present, let God’s goodness alone occupy our attention, that which gave so large a gift to man, even the liberty of his will. God’s purpose claims some other opportunity of treatment, offering as it does instruction of like import. Now, God alone is good by nature. For He, who has that which is without beginning, has it not by creation, but by nature. Man, however, who exists entirely by creation, having a beginning, along with that beginning obtained the form in which he exists; and thus he is not by nature disposed to good, but by creation, not having it as his own attribute to be good, because, (as we have said,) it is not by nature, but by creation, that he is disposed to good, according to the appointment of his good Creator, even the Author of all good. In order, therefore, that man might have a goodness of his own, bestowed on him by God, and there might be henceforth in man a property, and in a certain sense a natural attribute of goodness, there was assigned to him in the constitution of his nature, as a formal witness of the goodness which God bestowed upon him, freedom and power of the will, such as should cause good to be performed spontaneously by man, as a property of his own, on the ground that no less than this would be required in the matter of a goodness which was to be voluntarily exercised by him, that is to say, by the liberty of his will, without either favor or servility to the constitution of his nature, so that man should be good just up to this point, if he should display his goodness in accordance with his natural constitution indeed, but still as the result of his will, as a property of his nature; and, by a similar exercise of volition, should show himself to be too strong in defense against evil also (for even this God, of course, foresaw), being free, and master of himself; because, if he were wanting in this prerogative of self-mastery, so as to perform even good by necessity and not will, he would, in the helplessness of his servitude, become subject to the usurpation of evil, a slave as much to evil as to good. Entire freedom of will, therefore, was conferred upon him in both tendencies; so that, as master of himself, he might constantly encounter good by spontaneous observance of it, and evil by its spontaneous avoidance; because, were man even otherwise circumstanced, it was yet his bounden duty, in the judgment of God, to do justice according to the motions of his will regarded, of course, as free. But the reward neither of good nor of evil could be paid to the man who should be found to have been either good or evil through necessity and not choice. In this really lay the law which did not exclude, but rather prove, human liberty by a spontaneous rendering of obedience, or a spontaneous commission of iniquity; so patent was the liberty of man’s will for either issue. Since, therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will, it is not right, after ignoring the original definition of goodness and purpose which it was necessary to determine previous to any discussion of the subject, on subsequent facts to presume to say that God ought not in such a way to have formed man, because the issue was other than what was assumed to be proper for God. We ought rather, after duly considering that it behooved God so to create man, to leave this consideration unimpaired, and to survey the other aspects of the case. It is, no doubt, an easy process for persons who take offence at the fall of man, before they have looked into the facts of his creation, to impute the blame of what happened to the Creator, without any examination of His purpose. To conclude: the goodness of God, then fully considered from the beginning of His works, will be enough to convince us that nothing evil could possibly have come forth from God; and the liberty of man will, after a second thought, show us that it alone is chargeable with the fault which itself committed." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Bk. II, ch. vi)
"God put the question [to Adam - "where art thou"] with an appearance of uncertainty, in order that even here He might prove man to be the subject of a free will in the alternative of either a denial or a confession, and give to him the opportunity of freely acknowledging his transgression, and, so far, of lightening it. In like manner He inquires of Cain where his brother was, just as if He had not yet heard the blood of Abel crying from the ground, in order that he too might have the opportunity from the same power of the will of spontaneously denying, and to this degree aggravating, his crime; and that thus there might be supplied to us examples of confessing sins rather than of denying them: so that even then was initiated the evangelic doctrine, “By thy words thou shall be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Bk. II, xxv)

"That rich man did go his way who had not “received” the precept of dividing his substance to the needy, and was abandoned by the Lord to his own opinion. Nor will “harshness” be on this account imputed to Christ, the Found of the vicious action of each individual free-will. “Behold,” saith He, “I have set before thee good and evil.” Choose that which is good: if you cannot, because you will not — for that you can if you will He has shown, because He has proposed each to your free-will — you ought to depart from Him whose will you do not." (Tertullian, On Monogamy, XIV)


Clement of Alexandria (AD153-217)

"God, then, is good. And the Lord speaks many a time and oft before He proceeds to act. ... For the Divine Being is not angry in the way that some think; but often restrains, and always exhorts humanity, and shows what ought to be done. And this is a good device, to terrify lest we sin. “For the fear of the Lord drives away sins, and he that is without fear cannot be justified,” says the Scripture. And God does not inflict punishment from wrath, but for the ends of justice; since it is not expedient that justice should be neglected on our account. Each one of us, who sins, with his own free-will chooses punishment, and the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame. “But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous, who taketh vengeance? God forbid.” ... It is clear, then, that those who are not at enmity with the truth, and do not hate the Word, will not hate their own salvation, but will escape the punishment of enmity. “The crown of wisdom,” then as the book of Wisdom says, “is the fear of the Lord.” Very clearly, therefore, by the prophet Amos has the Lord unfolded His method of dealing, saying, “I have overthrown you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah; and ye shall be as a brand plucked from the fire: and yet ye have not returned unto me, saith the LORD.” See how God, through His love of goodness, seeks repentance; and by means of the plan He pursues of threatening silently, shows His own love for man. “I will avert,” He says, “My face from them, and show what shall happen to them.” For where the face of the Lord looks, there is peace and rejoicing; but where it is averted, there is the introduction of evil. The Lord, accordingly, does not wish to look on evil things; for He is good. But on His looking away, evil arises spontaneously through human unbelief. “Behold, therefore,” says Paul, “the goodness and severity of God: on them that fell severity; but upon thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness,” that is, in faith in Christ." (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, Bk. I, viii)


Origen (AD185-254)

"This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition; that it has a stuggle to maintain with the devil and his angels, and opposing influences, because they strive to burden it with sins; but if we live rightly and wisely, we should endeavor to shake ourselves free of a burden of that kind. From which it follows, also, that we understand ourselves not to be subject to necessity, so as to be compelled by all means, even against our will, to do either good or evil. For if we are our own masters, some influences perhaps may impel us to sin, and others help us to salvation; we are not forced, however, by any necessity either to act rightly or wrongly, which those persons think is the case who say that the courses and movements of the stars are the cause of human actions, not only of those which take place beyond the influence of the freedom of the will, but also of those which are placed within our own power." (Origen, De Principis, Preface)

"And for this reason we think that God, the Father of all things, in order to ensure the salvation of all His creatures through the ineffable plan of His word and wisdom, so arranged each of these, that every spirit, whether soul or rational existence, however called, should not be compelled by force, against the liberty of his own will, to any other course than that to which the motives of his own mind led him (lest by so doing the power of exercising free-will should seem to be taken away, which certainly would produce a change in the nature of the being itself); and that the varying purposes of these would be suitably and usefully adapted to the harmony of one world, by some of them requiring help, and others being able to give it, and others again being the cause of struggle and contest to those who are making progress, amongst whom their diligence would be deemed more worthy of approval, and the place of rank obtained after victory be held with greater certainty, which should be established by the difficulties of the contest." (Origen, Bk. II ch. I)


Hippolytus (AD170-236)

"But man, from the fact of his possessing a capacity of self-determination, brings forth what is evil, that is, accidentally; which evil is not consummated except you actually commit some piece of wickedness. For it is in regard of our desiring anything that is wicked, or our meditating upon it, that what is evil is so denominated. Evil had no existence from the beginning, but came into being subsequently. Since man has free will, a law has been defined for his guidance by the Deity, not without answering a good purpose. For if man did not possess the power to will and not to will, why should a law be established? For a law will not be laid down for an animal devoid of reason, but a bridle and a whip; whereas to man has been given a precept and penalty to perform, or for not carrying into execution what has been enjoined. For man thus constituted has a law been enacted by just men in primitive ages." (Hippolytus, Against all Heresies, Bk. X, ch. xxix)


Novatian (AD210-280)

"And lest, again, an unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his free will, in the contempt of the
law that was given. For, on the one hand, it had behooved him to be free, lest the image of God should, unfittingly be in bondage; and on the other, the law was to be added, so that an unbridled liberty might not break forth even to a contempt of the Giver. So that he might receive as a consequence both worthy rewards and a deserved punishment, having in his own power that which he might choose to do, by the tendency of his mind in either direction: whence, therefore, by envy, mortality comes back upon him; seeing that, although he might escape it by obedience, he rushes into it by hurrying to be God under the influence of perverse counsel." (Novatian, Trinity, ch. I)


Archelaus (AD277)

"This account also indicates that rational creatures have been entrusted with free-will, in virtue of which they also admit of conversions." ... "For all the creatures that God made, He made very good; and He gave to every individual the sense of free-will, in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law of judgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God’s gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin. ... The judges said: He has given demonstration enough of the origin of the devil. And as both sides admit that there will be a judgment, it is necessarily involved in that admission that every individual is shown to have free-will; and since this is brought clearly out, there can be no doubt that every individual, in the exercise of his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus, The Acts of the Disputation)


Alexander of Alexandria (AD273-326)

"I will endeavor, with your assistance and favor, to examine carefully the position of those who are offended, and deny that we speak the truth, when we say that man is possessed of free-will, and prove that “They perish self-destroyed, By their own fault,” choosing the pleasant in preference to the expedient." (Alexander, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse VIII, ch. xii)


Lactantius (AD260-330)

"When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in His forethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtilty either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angels for the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will, He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contamination from the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature." (Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Bk. II, ch. xv)


S
savannah


Re: the WILL of the Father and the Son

John 5:19-21 Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth; for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder. `For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth; (Young's Literal Translation).

John 5:19-21 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything from Himself, except what He may see the Father doing; for whatever that One does, these things also the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows to Him all things which He does. And He will show Him greater works than these in order that you may marvel. For even as the Father raises the dead, and gives life, so also the Son gives life to whomever He wills.

James 1:18 Exercising His will He begat us by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.(KJV)

Eph. 1:9-11 Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might collect in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Heb. 2:4 God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will.

Romans 9:15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." (quoted from Exodus 33:19).

Deut. 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Romans 9:18,19 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then to me, Why doth he yet find fault? for who hath resisted his will?

John 6:37-39 All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise reject.
For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Thess 5:23,24 And may the God of peace sanctify you all, perfectly, and keep blameless your whole spirit, and your soul, and your body, till the coming of our Lord Jesus the Messiah. Faithful is he that hath called you, who will do it.

2 Tim. 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me to his heavenly kingdom; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

C
Christinyou

Hi savannah;

I have always wondered how Jesus could only seek the will of His Father. Thank you for the scriptures that show that He, Jesus, did only want the will of His Father.

The reason Jusus did not seek His own fleshly will is because He is not a created being. Jesus is begotten of His Father, a birthed being making Him the exact representation of His Father.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

We are created beings, self willed and full of sin. We had no propensity of free will to choose God, for all have sinned and none seek His Face, only to self could we choose.

When God placed His own Incorruptable Seed, Jesus Christ in us, Praise God we now have the capacity to do the will of our Father, by the Spirit of Christ now living in us, this is Heavenly Seed not earthly seed.

Now we are free to love God in the way He wants His own children to love Him. I can now choose of my own Father given free will to Love Him. I can only love Him because He first loved me.

Free will in Christ as Christ is in the birthing, for my Spirit is now the exact image of Jesus Christ and my mind is being renewed from glory to glory to this truth, line upon line and precept upon precept.

It is Christ in us that gives us His Free will to do the Things of our Father, which all your scriptures point to.

Romans 8:6-14 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, ((((((neither indeed can be.))))) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, ((free will of the flesh))to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ((free will of the Spirit)).((added)), so I have only free will to the flesh before I am rebirthed.. Now by the new birth of Christ in me, the hope of Glory, I can choose the will of Our Father. "Whom the Son will set free, we are free indeed.

In Christ by the will of the Father before the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:17-19 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, (((((according to the working of Hhis mighty power,)))))

Who chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


In Christ our Glory: Phillip

S
sermonindex

I enjoyed your post Bro Savannah. I Love His Word so much.
It never contradicts itself.

When I read or hear a Good sermon, to me it's like sitting by a beautiful crackling fire place, just soaking it in.
But when I read His Word it's actually like Fireworks to me.
I can bearly read one verse that I get that same reaction. It's truly like - POW, BANG, BOOM for me to read any passages and I love it beyond explaining.
It never contradicts itself and we know Who wrote it and know that He will Never Ever lie to us nor "mess with our heads". I know - strange language I have. You'd have to know who all raised me to understand all'a that. :)

I love His Word, bottomline, and I enjoyed reading this post you did.

I still see freewill verses popping into my brain a mile a minute as I sit here, but that will never contradict nor cancel out the verses you've posted - which I appreciate very much.

Thanks for the blessing!
~in sincerity

U
UntoBabes

Savannah,

Please don't take this the wrong way because I did not read all the posts. But what is the point you are making by those Scriptures.

U
UntoBabes

John 5:19-21 Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth; for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder. `For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth; (Young's Literal Translation).


This verse, taken within the context, is an answer to the Jews who sought to kill Jesus because He , in their view, have violated the Sabbath and healed a man..

Jesus’ answer proves that He is not guilty of violating the Sabbath according to God because He did what he was commanded by God and what he saw the Father do.

So, here is the accusation: He was accused by the Jews that He was disobeying God and therefore can not be sent from God .

His defense was : He was obeying God in what he did., and His will is at perfect harmony with the Father in obedience. We see that in Gethsemane when Jesus as a man wanted to bypass the cross but He said:” Not my will but your be done.” Jesus surrendered His will completely to His Father.

Now my question is : what does that have to do with the free will of man .

I prefer that you would post verse by verse to give the chance to others to look it over to see the context in which they occurred. That prevents the violations and misunderstandings that happen to the Word of God.

If someone asks a question and you give them a couple of hundred verses, they will be overwhelmed and tend to believe your system without examining it.

I will go through all of these verses to see what they really mean WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURES.

edit-- Same also goes for John 5:30
`I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.


D
davidc

Dear sister JiG

Could you for a moment stand back from all these freewill/non-freewill verses that are coming into your mind, and consider that these doctrinal issues are not the real root cause of why your friends appear to be falling away from their first love and faith in Christ.

To my admttedly limited understanding, the main problem in the "professing" churches is that the gospel is not being preached, as Peter says, "with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven". People are hearing what is equivalent to a John the Baptist gospel; repentance, baptism and believe for the rest of your life. They start well and seem to show signs of change in their lifestyle, eg by coming to church, praying, etc. But when the wind blows, the house falls.

Even, sorry to say, on this site, there are sermon after sermon: teachings on how to live as a chistian; the way of holiness, the prayer life, etc, etc. But Christ Jesus is rarely being set forth as crucified, risen and glorified. That is what we should be feeding on. This is the state of the churches (so called) today.

Weak minded people can easily be influence by charimatic preaching, but the gospel of Christ is not with wisdom of words, but with power. Christ is risen and seated in glory. Every believer should know assuredly in himself that the Holy Ghost dwells within him.

This is what you should, I believe, share with you brothers and sisters in the church, not doctrinal issues.

Love David

U
UntoBabes

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.(KJV)

Eph. 1:9-11 Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might collect in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Heb. 2:4 God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will.


Every believer, no matter what their denomination may be believes that God does all things according to His own sovereign will. The question is: Is this will arbitrary. I have answered this in another thread and just will cut and paste what I have written before.

Does God have an arbitrary pleasure or will?

Let us examine this.
If some one comes to your house and you offer them your Laz-Boy stuffed up recliner to sit and make themselves comfortable, but to your surprise he/ she passes by it without notice and sits on the floor instead.
You ask in utter shock. Friend, why did you not sit here instead. They answer by saying: It pleases me to sit on the floor. Am I not free to do as I please. ( please note, people do not speak that way because that would be rude, but God on the other hand can and does speak that way),

but back to our point. If that guest of your chooses to do as he/she pleases and sit on the floor instead of the comfortable chair you have offered them. Does that mean they do not have any reason behind their decision. Could it be that they are more comfortable on the floor? Or feel more secure?
Just because they chose the less likely option, it does not mean they did not have a reason behind their decision.
Now, let us go back to the Scriptures and see if Paul is saying that God’s pleasure is arbitrary ( meaning that He chooses people with complete disregard to their actions ), or does He have a reason for choosing them that is based on His fore-seen response on their part to His calling.
But first, let us examine what God did that was absolutely shocking . God chose the Gentile (sit on the floor), and passed by the Jew ( Laz-Boy chair). He hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Cor 1: 27-29.

But why did God choose the foolish , weak, and base things of the world.
The answer to that is found in Rom 9: 30-33.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It is not merely because they are despised, foolish and weak. It is because being despised, foolish, and weak led them to Christ by faith.

That is why Paul can say in 2 Cor 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Does that mean that ALL those who are weak, poor, despised, …are the chosen.

By no means. Every rule has exceptions. In most cases these things drive man to faith. One of the most necessary requirements of faith is total surrender of the will, total reliance on God, total helplessness for failing to do the will of God. It is that awful cry one makes when he is met with the holiness of God that hates, and must judge sin. Woe is me, who can deliver me?

Do we have examples in the Scriptures to illustrate the connection between humility, which in the most part is the product of being despised, rejected and faith.

Let us see from the words that came out of the mouth of our Lord Himself.
We are given two examples from the Scriptures of people whom Christ has testified to have great faith.
One is found in Matt 8:5-12

5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so GREAT FAITH, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


The other is found in Matt 15: 21-28

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, GREAT IS THY FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

So, Does Romans 9 declare that God is God, and that He hath done all things well, and that He does as He pleases with His creation.
Absolutely yes, But not in a Calvinistic sense. Calvinists hold to a false notion that God created man without the ability to have faith. Then He chose a few of the human race to redeem, based not on their faith, or anything in them, but rather on His arbitrary pleasure. To a Calvinist there is no difference between the Centurion and the Canaanite woman whose will were broken and the Pharisees who were filled with pride due to their trust in ELECTION.

A Calvinist may argue that ELECTION can not produce but gratitude for the sovereignty of God , but the Scriptures clearly teach us otherwise. The Pharasees believed very highly in the sovereignty of God, they believed they were God’s people, the elect according to the promises of God. But election has become an idol that separated them from God, and caused their rejection . It is amazing how these divine equations work.

You may ask. How do I know that I have not become like the pharasees ? How do I know that I am in idoletery?

Here is the answer:

Is God the dearest one to you. Is His Word the Book you cherish most. Do you examine your heart daily to see if you are in the faith? Are their not sins in your life you do not want to give up, but justify your hold of them with the fact that God chose you and loved you while you were still a sinner, then it must be okay with Him for you to keep holding onto them.

Do you think that humility is to believe you are the greatest sinner, but that is where it stops? Friend, if you think that, you are self deceived. And if you are teaching others that, then you are a deceiver as well. True humility is to empty yourself completey of self and live your life solely for the glory of God.

Oh blessed election that drive people to love God above all else. And Oh cursed election that drives them to justify their sin under the cloak of glorifying Him.

Disclaimer: I believe that God will restore His People the Jews according to the flesh as they become also Jews according to the spirit.

Rom 11:23, 28-32
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


U
UntoBabes

Romans 9:15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." (quoted from Exodus 33:19).

Romans 9:18,19 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then to me, Why doth he yet find fault? for who hath resisted his will?

Again, here the Apostle is answering a question that is being asked at his day and that question is: How could God choose the Gentile and harden the Jew?

The Gentile Christians were made to doubt their salvation because they were not a physical descendants of Abraham and were not circumcised .

That is the reason the Apostle wrote the Book of Romans.

The proud assumption was: How dare God change His mind? He is obliged to save us the Jews. The Apostle therefore uses language as: “Who are you to reply against God”, “ He shows mercy to whomever He wills, and whomever He wills He hardens.”

If we do not understand the background of these Scriptural verses, we can easily come with the wrong conclusions. The background is “ The Jews rejected God and Christ, therefore God had hardened their hearts.” This hardening on God’s part was not without a cause. A quick look at the four Gospels will show that Jesus have called them to salvation over and again, but because they rejected He spoke to them in Parables which is a way of hardening that they may not understand, repent, and be forgiven.
They wanted God on their own terms. Riding a chariot instead of a donkey, conquering the Romans instead of dying on a cross. Paul said that the cross to the Jew was a stumbling block.

Please, It is absolutely necessary to understand the Bible in its context. If we do not, it may carry eternal consequences.

If the Book of Romans is a doctrinal book and especially chapter 9. Then why would the Apostle starts it with something like this:

" 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

I will address the rest of the verses later, lord willing.


C
Christinyou

Free will of the flesh is dead to God.

Free will of the Spirit is alive unto God.

The Spirit and the flesh are separated in the Word.

That is why Jesus said; Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Can flesh that is not born again have free will to choose the things of the Kingdom of God?

Can we in the Spirit choose the things of the Kingdom of God?

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now the Spirit of God free will has made Jesus Christ to us;

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

"But of Him" because my fleshly freewill could not choose Him. But Now, after our birthing by "Our Father", our minds can be renewed to the Mind of Christ which we have and Our Spiritual Free Will in the Spirit has His wisdom, His righteousness, His sanctification, His redemption, so now I can of my own free will by Him that is in me, can choose all that He is to the Father.

"Not My will, but Yours be done".

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Even in the old Testament, believing came by the inspiration of God.

Job 32:7-16 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. ((((((But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.)))))) Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion. Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say. Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words: Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man. Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches. They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking. When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

U
UntoBabes

No, Christinyou,

The unregenerate have no interest in the things of God. If you gave an unregenerate person a Bible, he will not be able to understand it either. But like the woman whose dughter was demon possessed can cry out to God for help!!!

That is an exercise of the will!!!


The person presenting thw message of the Gospel need to be filled with the Holy Spirit that will bring conviction to the unregenerate of of the holiness of God and of his own violation of the law of God.

But it is his responsibility to make a choice for God or against Him.

C
Christinyou

Quote: "No" no what?

""But it is his responsibility to make a choice for God or against Him.""

Then why did Jesus come if none seek Him, for all fall short.

Galatians 3:22-27 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Who gives the faith to believe?

No faith kept us under the Law.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Faith of Christ must come or we cannot believe.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

SI has a suggestion thread: could we have an Ignore option?

No one answered my post on page 3 - the one that defines a Greek word as "choose or choice". Hmm?

How about we exegete Matthew Chpt 25 and find out who the goats are.

Anyhow, I listened to a Paul Washer message tonight for the first time. The one that Alive-to-God recommended on the Version thread.

I direct your attention to the last bit at the end of it.

He said we must preach "repentence" before a person can be saved.

OK - how does a person "choose" to do this?

How can a person feel his need for "repentence" unless the Holy Spirit show the person all that they need to repent OF?

Is repenting first a "choice"?

Washer's gripe was about how some preach the Gospel message.
He said he preached the Gospel and then an big old guy was sitting up front and afterwards, Paul went up to him and asked what was wrong with the guy. He asked the man, "Did you understand the gospel message I preached?" and the guy said "Yes." - but Paul said he would not just jump into asking the man if he wanted to pray and receive the LORD into his life - that he needed to go on and on about repentence and all of that. Never did say what happened in that dept - but it just ended with the man reading John 3:16 and bursting out with basically a joyous "I'm forgiven".


So do tell. Is repentence necessary for salvation?

Or does one repent After the Holy Spirit enters a person?

Is repentence a work?

And Is repentence a choice?

If my posts are going to not be answered and ignored, no one should be surprised if theirs is ignored.


{eta} Then we have the warnings to 5 of the 7 churches in the Revelation. They had "choices" to make after reading those warnings.

To my understanding - when a person is truly saved - as a newborn hungers for food and their first cries are for food, we get hungry for His Word and understand what we're reading for the first time.
Also - there are very distinct and overwhelming feelings of both Love and Fear of The LORD and these two work hand-in-hand to make the person 'desire' to "obey" what they read in His Word - besides personal conviction never felt before from The Holy Spirit within them. Whether there is conviction coming from whatever Scriptures we read after Salvation or if it comes directly in an inner conviction - we still have the choice to obey His Words or not. We are not robots - and that is the problem I see and why I started this thread - is for those who are taught that GOD does it all for us and we need not "fear the LORD" nor "Obey His WORD" - but just kick back and enjoy the ride - so to speak.

That's building your house on sinking sand - and most especially in these last days - when Jesus said that "if the righteous are 'scarcely' saved" and "because iniquity abounds the love of Most will grow cold."
We need the WHOLE Counsel of GOD if anyone of us is going to make it - "Faithful unto the end."


Brother David, "doctrine" just means "Teachings of Jesus", so we can't ignore the teachings of Jesus and especially passages such as Matthew 25, just for starts. Seems it's awefully important, if that determines if we're "sheep or goats".


Blessings!!

D
davidc

JisG
"Brother David, "doctrine" just means "Teachings of Jesus", so we can't ignore the teachings of Jesus and especially passages such as Matthew 25, just for starts. Seems it's awefully important, if that determines if we're "sheep or goats".


I personally don't see that we are either. The church, His Bride will come with Him when "He comes in His glory". Perhaps the phrase "inasmuch as ye did it to these my brethren" refers to the church, But it is more likely referring to the jewish remnant at that time, and how they have been treated by the nations during the tribulation period.

David

S
sermonindex

Brother David, if what you believe were true, than that would make this entire Chapter for "the JEWS only".

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

D
davidc

JisG, you write

"Brother David, if what you believe were true, than that would make this entire Chapter for "the JEWS only".

Not the whole chapter, but just from verse 31

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


From this verse to the end of the chapter. He is speaking of the judgement of the nations that are alive on the earth when He comes in His glory. This is clearly prophesied in Joel: Ch 3

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Joel 3:1-2 (KJV) and:


11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. Joel 3:9-17 (KJV)

I hope this clarifies my previous post. I do not wish to enter into any contention, my sister. I have already written to you my views about your dilemma with your fellow church members.

Much love in Him

David

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sermonindex

Thanks for your reply Brother. No fear, I'm literally physically allergic to "contention", so 'you' won't get it from me.

I believe a difference in our views on when the resurrection of the Saints is may factor in on this as well, but that's not the point of this thread neither.

I'll respect your view on this and will just ask those who are reading this thread to see where I feel 'freewill' comes in, to consider the first 30 verses of Matthew 25 instead.

Bless you, with His Love as well.
Thanks!

C
Christinyou

Where is the Born Again Christian in this Matt 25? Not there. Who did Jesus come to? The Lost Sheep of the house of Israel. Where is the Bride of Christ in Matt 25? If this is for the Bride, why did Jesus Choose Paul to bring the Mystery to the Body of Christ His Church. This is the Kingdom message, all perception is on the Law. Grace and Faith Came by Jesus Christ and Paul is the one chosen to reveal the Mystery of Christ in the Believer and New Birth by "Our Father", Jesus is our New Spirit by the incorruptable Seed of the Father. He came to His own and they, Israel received Him not. Therefore the Gospel is sent to the Gentiles and they will Hear it, not by our own ears but by the Speaking of the Holy Spirit who gives us ears to Hear.

The Jews did not know the Gospel of Paul, "Christ and Him Crucified", and their new birth in Him of Him in them. After Paul had preached this one Word, "My Gospel". Paul gave up and brought forth Isisah's saying, "Acts 28:25-27 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Then Pauls' message, "My Gospel", "Christ and Him crucified" and "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" Which fulfills the Word of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul spoke these words by the Holy Spirit. Acts 28:28-29 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

So How could Matt 25 be applicable to the Church the Body of Christ, His Body the Church. That is Why Paul was sent to reveal this Mystery, which was not in parables spoken to Isreal, But in Truth and Power of God, which Paul declares in all His epistles.

Paul then stayed a long time preaching and teaching Christ and the Kingdom of God which takes new birth to understand.

Acts 28:30-31 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

This is why Paul was chosen; Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Paul is much after Matt 25. Only Paul had the revelation of Christ in us, which Peter finally understood from hearing Pauls mystery, "My Gospel" message.

1 Peter 1:22-24 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Matt 25 can only have effect on those under the Law. No choice, either obey or Parish.

Repent is agreement with God, now believing and being able because of our Nature in Christ, "new creation race of people", to repent and agree that God is right. Matt 25, Repent and be baptized and do the Law. Pauls Gospel of Grace and Christ in you the hope of Glory, Repent and be baptized into The Death of Christ, and keep the Law by the Fulfillment of Christ in us, by whom we are now a Law unto our selves. This is now our Labour.
Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's Working?

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

S
savannah


Re: the will of the father (devil) and the sons

Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 5:40,43 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life...I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe.

John 15:20,21 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

1 Cor. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.'

D
davidc

Thank you, Phillip for such truth.

Acts 28:28-29 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.


I believe that it was at this one word, that the mystery of God was fuly revealed to Paul. From Rome he wrote his Ephesians letter.

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel Eph 3:4-6 (KJV) and:

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery Eph 3:8-9 (KJV)

And, from Rome, his Colossian letter:

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:24-27 (KJV)

And it included me, a gentile sinner. Little did I know, when I asked Him to take away my burden of sin and guilt, that He would give me His unsearchable riches in exchange.

David

C
Christinyou

Why do we keep trying to embrace what God has done for His children. It is finished, He did it, has done it and will do it, saved in spirit being saved in our soul/mind and will be saved in body. How much can we say, there are not even enough words spoken by the greatest apostles of time and even spoken by Jesus Himself that give the greatest work for a lowly sinner who deserves death. Can you believe He God says there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ and are called according to His Purpose.

Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This is about the best I can find in the Word, but even this is not enough, our spirits should be leaping and shouting and dancing and on our face before the Glory of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I wish I had greater word for our slavation in Him, but even they would not give the Glory and Love our Father deserves, and some day I pray that I could be the one to give it, with my brothers and sisters in Him.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

It's become so obvious to me through this thread that you men love pulling Scriptures and totally ignoring those that point to your free will. It couldn't be more obvious than it is on this last page where the three of you have posted.
We call that Super-Market Shopping. Pick and choose which ever verses you prefer and leave the rest that speak of your need for obedience AFTER Salvation.

Post two verses from Ephesians, but be sure to leave off two whole chpts in the same book -- Chpts 5 and 6, because somewhere inside you know that any "command" means that you have a "choice" to obey those commands or 'choose' to ignore them ... which many do and why many fall ... and why there's a need for a thread on "Free will".

Post 4 verses from Colossians but neglect that there's another two whole chpts filled with "commands" that require obedience by choice. Chpts 3 & 4.


That's why Jesus said: "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of most will grow cold."

Because of "Iniquity" -

G458
ανομία
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

S
sermonindex


Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

2Co 10:5,6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

C
Christinyou

All of Rom 2 condemns mans free will to obey, for he cannot of himself obey all the Law, both Jews and Gentiles are equally condemned by their own free wills and actions. Even in doing good always and keeping the Law, there is still the heart that is deceitfully wicked and cannot attain salvation by his own free will.

Rom 3 gives the only way a man can be saved, by faith through Grace and that alone, the gift of God is the only salvation man has.

Ro 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Ro 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Ro 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Ro 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Ro 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You say we pick and choose to prove our point, and thou doest the same. That is what Rom 2 is all about. My free will cannot save me and it cannot keep me saved. Only the will of God in Christ Jesus can I be saved. Then all my labour that is pleasing to God will be of the Christ that is in me. My Spirit is perfect, because it is the Spirit of Christ, My soul/mind is being perfected by the renewing by the Holy Spirit of the truth to the Mind of Jesus Christ and His Cross, which is not based on my free/will, but on the will of God and the finished work of Jesus Christ. I want to more that anything keep the whole Law of God, even in my free will, I cannot. That is why Paul speaks to this very thing. His free will only brought him under condemnation. Who will set us free from this body of sin, Praise God through Jesus Christ.

Paul said it is no longer I who sin, but sin that dwells in me. That is my condemnation, my free will cannot overcome this body of sin, only Christ Jesus and the righteousness of God in Him makes me with no condemnation before God our Father.

Now my will comes into play, even by the Christ that lives in me, not by my free will, but by His will in me. For it is He that works in me mightily. Col 1: 27-29.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

Who will set me free. Ro 3:24 Being justified dikaiow freely dwrean by his autoV grace cariV through dia the redemption apolutrwsiV that is in en Christ CristoV Jesus IhsouV:
Ro 5:1 Therefore oun being justified dikaiow by ek faith pistiV, we have ecw peace eirhnh with proV God qeoV through dia our hmon Lord kurioV Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV:
Ro 5:11 And de not ou only monon so, but alla we also kai joy kaucaomai in en God qeoV through dia our hmon Lord kurioV Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV, by dia whom oV we have lambanw now nun received lambanw the atonement katallagh.
Ro 5:15 But alla not ou as wV the offence paraptwma, so outw also kai is the free gift carisma. For gar if ei through the offence paraptwma of one eiV many poluV be dead apoqnhskw, much poluV more mallon the grace cariV of God qeoV, and kai the gift dwrea by en grace cariV, which is o by one eiV man anqrwpoV, Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV, hath abounded perisseuw unto eiV many poluV.
Ro 5:21 That ina as wsper sin amartia hath reigned basileuw unto en death qanatoV, even kai so outw might basileuw grace cariV reign basileuw through dia righteousness dikaiosunh unto eiV eternal aiwnioV life zwh by dia Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV our hmon Lord kurioV.
Ro 6:11 Likewise outw reckon logizomai ye umeiV also kai yourselves eautou to be einai dead nekroV indeed men unto sin amartia, but de alive zaw unto God qeoV through en Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV our hmon Lord kurioV.
Ro 6:23 For gar the wages oywnion of sin amartia is death qanatoV; but de the gift carisma of God qeoV is eternal aiwnioV life zwh through en Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV our hmon Lord kurioV.
Ro 7:25 I thank eucaristew God qeoV through dia Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV our hmon Lord kurioV. So then ara oun with the mind nouV I egw myself autoV serve men douleuw the law nomoV of God qeoV; but de with the flesh sarx the law nomoV of sin amartia.
Ro 15:17 I have ecw therefore whereof oun I may glory kauchsiV through en Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV in those things which pertain to proV God qeoV.
Ro 16:27 To God qeoV only monoV wise sojoV, be glory doxa through dia Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV for eiV ever aiwn. Amen

Not my free will but Christ who hang on the Cross, He and He alone will set me free. "if the Son will set you free, we are free indeed.

My free will by the Law broght forth death.

Romans 7:5-6 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Who's will are we in now? The will of God in Christ Jesus.

Not because I don't want to but I cannot.

Romans 7:11-25 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (includes free will) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: (includes free will) for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (includes free will) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (This is my free will, serving the law of sin.)

Now I am alive to God? Because of Christ in me, my will is His will, my free will is dead on the Cross.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You want to be tested in your own free will? Thou are dead and Christ is alive. You want to be tested by grace and the free gift of God, Thou are alive and the flesh lives by the Faith of the Son of God, sin is dead, including my sinful free will. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

H
Hitch

"He that is in the flesh can NOT please GOD"
The flesh has NO will to please GOD, only to please self.
It is of its' father the devil, and the works of its' father it WILLS TO DO.
The believer in JESUS (saved man) DOES have a free will. He can be a SPIRITUAL man and walk by the HOLY SPIRIT,or, he can be a carnal man and walk by his flesh.
If he walks by the SPIRIT, he will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
GOD has given us Psalm 119:45 that we might walk at liberty (in a wide place), and Psalm 119:96 to show us that HIS commandments are exceedingly broad.
In no other place can we mind the things of the SPIRIT but the WORD OF GOD. The believer has a choice (free will) and can immerse himself in the WORD OF GOD and walk by the spirit, OR neglect the WORD OF GOD and live in the flesh.
The unsaved man has NO choice (free will) but to live at the whim of his flesh, with no desire to seek, or be pleasing to, GOD.

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sermonindex

Early in Jesus' earthly ministry He set us straight.

He said that whoever was 'willing to God's will' would know if His [Jesus'] doctrine was of God or not.

We can't get past free-will. We're "choosing" our thoughts, words and our actions, on a moment to moment basis.

I see freewill - and the flesh warring after the spirit and the Spirit asking us to "choose", from the first book of our Bible to the very last. "Choose ye this day"

You've even chosen your opinions on His teachings according to the definition of heresies that I gave on another page.
If one can choose to believe a lie, then they can choose to believe truth. That's what Jesus meant in that verse - if we're willing to do His will - we'll know the true from the false.

It's a two-way 'Relationship', of our choosing to surrender to His Will on a moment by moment basis, even us casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exaltes itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity Every thought to the obedience of Christ.

He doesn't need robots. He wants Love returned from those who Love Him because He first Loved us.

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sermonindex

I've been told that Luther wanted to throw out the book of James.

"Christinyou" threw out Matthew 25, saying it doesn't apply to His Bride.

??


If we throw out free-will, we make GOD the Author of our sin.


Go figure.

C
Christinyou

Praise God I am a robot, with a heart of flesh. I can now love Him because He first loved me. I want to please God and fail every day, the only peace I have is when I am in His Rest and He says Thou art a son of God, because of what I have done for you. My heart melts, for God is calling me a son. How can that be, what love, what patients, what move of the Spirit to make me a son of God. He has done it all and all I can do is fall on my face and praise Him, which is never enough. All my life I wanted to be and overcomer, in life, in pain, in the Air Force in my Marriage, in my being a father to my 7 children. I have failed all of them, but Jesus Christ picks me up and makes me feel like I am a real person who will overcome, overcome in His power and strength which He gave me when I am rebirthed by His Spirit that is in me. When I see military men and women come home with no arms or legs and they overcome, I cry because I never could do it. I cannot do what my Father in His Holiness asks of me. I cry. I try and try and try, and fail but when the Spirit of Christ comes to me and tells me He loves me, I cannot understand.

God tells me I am worth something to Him and sent His son to take away my sin and inability to love Him the way I so want to. He is changing that and slowly giving me the desire of my heart which is to love Him the way He loves me.

I can only present this body as a living sacrifice for His use, which is the only spiritual service I have to give.

For me to be conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ the Son of God is the greatest privilege I can think of. What a Father, who already calls me son and conforming me the Image of His own begotten son. This is free will alright but it is not of myself. It is by the Christ in me that free will does work. Without Him though I can do nothing.
In Christ Jesus I can do all things He gives me to do.

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Thank you for changing my will to the will of our Father. Not there yet but still running the race and wanting to finish the race as He did.

Praise God because of Gods love in me I can love Him and He can accept it through His Son that is now my life of spirit, faith and works.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 3:16-18 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

We are all one in Christ, not by my will but by the Will of the Father, He loves us just like the Son He cherish'.

John 17:21-26 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I would be completely lost not just to sin but to all that I am if I did not believe the Love of Christ and the Father in me, just as they love each other, they love me and I am learning to love them back.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex


Mat 5:44, 45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mar 12:30, 31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luk 6:27-29 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Luk 6:31-33 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

~Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

~Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

~Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

~Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

~Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of Him.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you

1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works

Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Jas 2:8,9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

~1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:9-11 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

~1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn 3:16-19 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

~1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

~1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

~1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

~1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

~1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:20 ,21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:5,6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

G
ginnyrose

So, to sum it up if one does not have a free-will then the scriptures that exhort us to faithfulness are meaningless...

Right?

Or, wrong?

M
Matthew2323

Ginnyrose,

As always, a good question. Before that gets answered, perhaps we should define, biblically, what exactly free will is.

If the will is influenced by sin, is it free? If my emotions change my will, is it free? If the weather influences my will, is it free? If the Holy Spirit influences my will, is it free?

and on and on....

Does God have any hindrances to His will? Is there anything that can thwart His plans?

Now how does that compare to man's will? Is man's will completely autonomous? What does it mean to be either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness as spoken of in Romans 6? How is the will affected when we a given a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26,27)?

Answering these questions with Scripture will help in your pursuit of Truth.

Anyone?

H
Hitch

Ginnyrose et. al.

Adam had a free will....he exercised it and decided to eat.
From that he, and we (Rom. 5:12), spiritually died, and thus as unsaved individuals we can not know GOD or choose GOD.
GOD sent HIS SON to seek and to save that which was lost.
When we are drawn to GOD by the HOLY SPIRIT, GOD gives us the WILL (as it were) to choose JESUS as our savior. Seeing the choice we have at this point, it is a "no brainer", we WILL to choose GOD!!
And when we do, HE gives us John 10:28- and I give unto them eternal (infinite, un-ending) life, and they shall never (never means never, and it never means anything else) perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In my previous post you will see the truth of free will.

I pray GODs' richest understanding for you.

G
ginnyrose

If the will is influenced by sin, is it free? If my emotions change my will, is it free? If the weather influences my will, is it free? If the Holy Spirit influences my will, is it free?

So, then, this assumes that given the right circumstances one will make correct choices...

Consider John 6:66-71:

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

All of the disciples were exposed to the same ministry of Jesus, ministering to others as well, yet one chose wrong.

Modern philosophy says that if you provide a person with a good environment they will always make good choices. Life had proven this idea to be bankrupt.

Does this make sense?

H
Hitch

Unsaved man has no free will.
Saved man has free will.
GOD says "I will have mercy on whom I will......."
GOD is Sovereign and is not held accountable by anyone.
HE lifts up who HE will and brings low who HE will.

The passage you partially quoted contains ALL of these issues and their answers.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

""So, to sum it up if one does not have a free-will then the scriptures that exhort us to faithfulness are meaningless...

Right?

Or, wrong?""

Wrong!!!!!!

Now, being born again we can make right choices in Christ. Before, my free will could only choose death. My will was always set against God. None are righteous until Christ was made righteousness in us.

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

He that is in me is my glory, because of Him my will is set unto God, our Father. "Not my will but Yours".

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

I opened this thread but I should have specified that I desired us to discuss 'our' walks as born-again/saved humans and not the unsaved.

On the previous page, I only posted those verses that show we are 'commanded' to Love - and wherever we see a 'command' we must assume that is worded as such (as a command) because it is up to our "wills" to decide or not to decide to obey it. Without "wills", the words "obey and obedience" would not exist in our New Testaments neither.

I'm sure there's a few others that are stunned as I am over the mere thought, nonetheless the writings of anyone claiming that we - have no freewill, to choose or not to choose to obey GOD's Word or the leading of His Spirit within us.
When I started this thread - I was only Guessing that was what some felt when they'd say, "I can't stop commiting this particular sin --- GOD has to do something." When Paul says to control your own vessel - take every thought captive - love others as you love yourself - Love GOD with all of your heart, MIND, soul, and stength - flee youthful lusts - resist the devil and he'll flee and on and on the Scriptures go for what our part is, in Serving GOD and being "faithful servants" desiring to hear "Well done" when we see Him and not "Depart from Me, I never Knew you".

To say that we have no free-will to choose our thoughts, words or actions is nothing but pure delusionary-Non-Scriptural excuses and throws out half or more of the N.T..


To say that Matthew 25 does not pertain to 'us' is just Part of this pitiful error. That chpt will not be blackened out of our Bibles - because when we stand before Him one day - the "books to be opened" are The WORD and His Book of Life and Matthew 25 will still be there & factored in, in GOD's Mind.


Further more --- To say that "faith without works is dead" does not pertain to us, is more error heaped upon more error.


On previous pages a few have posted many Scriptures and definitions and so forth and as yet - none of those posts have been addressed.
I won't address any one post of others who contend we have no free-will, because I have to post what's on my heart here and let the chips fall where they may and if the topic is understood, I welcome others to contribute, otherwise, I'll just post whatever hits me, so to speak - whenever I can - and despite whether there's any replies that address those posts or not.
This is just a topic that has been Heavy on my heart and I have to admit that I've been stunned beyond words at times (and almost to tears) by some of the replies so far.
I'm not out to "teach", but just to post my heart out. That's all.
Having already stated that I do believe our Relationship with our Saviour is likened to a marriage and is a co-operative union with Him as well, I'm quite aware that without Him, I can do nothing .... but .....


Moving along:
Jesus' disciples asked Him a request and I'd like to post it here and see if anyone would like to venture to explain what HE was driving at in this answer He gives them ...


Luk 17:5-10 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow[think] not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Rev 2:10 .... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

D
davym

REFLECTIONS ON JONATHAN EDWARDS’

VIEW OF FREE WILL
by W. Tullian Tchividjian
Introduction
\tIs the human will bound or free? Can man choose freely between each and every option presented to him? Is man’s will neutral or has it been internally affected in such a way so as to influence his choices? How far did man fall when he sinned? Was it a mere stumble, or was it total? If it was total and we are unable to incline ourselves toward anything righteous, then how can we be responsible for our unrighteousness? In my opinion, there is no better theological contribution to this issue than that of Jonathan Edwards. His rigorous yet clear articulation of the issue sheds tremendous light on a thorny and controversial topic. It is his contribution that I want to briefly reflect on. But before I do, I want to take a brief look at how this issue first arose in its most prominent form.


A Brief History
There does not seem to be any record of a major controversy concerning man’s freedom in the decision-making process prior to the Pelagian controversy of the 5th century. To be sure, there were debates concerning “free will” prior to the Pelagian controversy (Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and others opposed determinism), but none that took center stage the way the Pelagian controversy did.


\tPelagius, a British-born monk who resided in Rome before it fell in 410, was “roused to anger by an inert Christendom, that excused itself by pleading the frailty of the flesh and the impossibility of fulfilling the grievous commandments of God. [Pelagius] preached that God commanded nothing impossible, that man possessed the power of doing the good if only he willed, and that the weakness of the flesh was merely a pretext".1 This frustration with the church of his day led Pelagius to the conclusion that man’s chief problem is not his inability to do what God commands in and of himself, but rather his refusal to do that which he is capable of doing, namely, righteous works. Man can achieve in and of himself, according to Pelagius, whatever is required of him in morality and religion. Human nature remains uncorrupted and the natural will free to do all good. He was unable to see how responsibility could reside in us without free will. In fact, for Pelagius, there is no need for a Redeemer-Christ, for what is it that we need redemption from if we can do all things righteous on our own? This position led Pelagius to eventually deny the universality of sin, for which he was condemned in 418 AD at the Council of Carthage.\t


It was St. Augustine who, at this time, rose to challenge the position of Pelagius and argued fiercely for the bondage of the will. Augustine was undoubtedly Pelagius’ most outspoken opponent and he stressed that grace is an absolute necessity from beginning to end. Sin has, according to Augustine, so affected our nature that we are naturally inclined toward sin and sin only. “It was by the evil use of his free will that man destroyed both it and himself”, said Augustine. Man is truly “dead in his trespasses and sins”, and in a desperate situation. Apart from grace, according to Augustine, no one can be saved, much less, do that which is righteous before God. For Augustine, it was an undermining of the gospel to say that man has the power in and of himself to incline himself godward. Justification is entirely of God.


In defending these views, it was Augustine who won the day, but the issue did not go away. It comes up again and again throughout church history. In 1525, Martin Luther wrote Bondage of the Will in response to Erasmus’ book entitled Diatribe Concerning Free Will. Luther echoed Augustine by asserting that if one holds to a view that sees the will as completely free and able, in and of itself, to choose that which is righteous, then man is able to take partial credit for his salvation. Does God get all the glory or just some of it? Luther vehemently argues that unless sovereign grace intervenes we can do nothing righteous before God in and of ourselves. We are hopeless!


The other Reformers (Calvin, Zwingli, Bucer, Knox) were one with Luther in these convictions and went on themselves to articulate it further, most notably Calvin in his Institutes. And while many of the Puritans, one and two hundred years later, agreed with and held to the view that man’s will is bound by sin so that sin affects his decisions, there was none who articulated it better than Jonathan Edwards.


Jonathan Edwards’ Background
Born in 1703 into a pioneer family on the frontier of East Windsor, Connecticut, Jonathan Edwards was the only son of twelve children. His father, Timothy, was a pastor. At the age of thirteen, Edwards went to Yale College and graduated in 1720. After a few years of teaching in New York and at Yale, he became an assistant pastor to his grandfather, Solomon Stoddard, at a Congregational Church in Northampton. After Stoddard died, Edwards became the pastor. A series of conversions took place at his church, which coincided with the conversions taking place under the preaching of George Whitefield, an English evangelist, in the same area. Conversions began to sweep the area and a spiritual revival like none other took place. We know it today as the First Great Awakening.


It has been said of Jonathan Edwards that he produced one of the most thorough and compelling bodies of theological writing in the history of America. More commonly asserted is the statement that Edwards was “the greatest intellect that America has ever produced”. Perhaps this is seen best in his book Freedom of the Will.


Freedom of the Will
A glancing at the title might lead some to think that Edwards and Luther differed. This is not so, essentially. The title illustrates Edwards’ thesis that we are free to choose that which we most desire. The truth, though, according to Edwards, is that because by nature we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we desire only sin. Our natural inclination is not toward righteousness, but toward sin. All mankind, according to Edwards, are “by nature in a state of total ruin, both with respect to the moral evil of which they are the subjects, and the afflictive evil to which they are exposed, the one as the consequence and punishment of the other”.2
According to Edwards, proof of original sin is easily demonstrated. Aside from the supernatural biblical proof found in Romans 1, 3, 5 and Ephesians 2, there is plenty of natural proof as well: All people sin! All of human history testifies to this. And we have more proof today, following two World Wars and one Cold War, than Edwards had in his day. Because we are free to choose that which we most desire, and because what we most desire is to destroy ourselves, it is our freedom that turns out to be our greatest enemy.


The Will as the Mind Choosing
Edwards defines the will as “the mind choosing”. This is unique for the simple reason that up until this point, nobody had bothered to refine a careful definition of the will. Everyone assumed that “will” was self-defining. Our choices, according to Edwards, are not determined by the will itself but by the mind. Our choices are determined by what we think is most desirable at any given moment. But why does the mind choose one thing over another? This is where Edwards introduces the idea of “motives”. We choose one thing over another because our mind chooses what it thinks is best. John Gerstner sums up Edwards’ point well:


Your choices as a rational person are always based on various considerations or motives that are before you at the time. Those motives have a certain weight with you, and the motives for and against reading a book, for example, are weighed in the balance of your mind; the motives that outweigh all others are what you, indeed, choose to follow. You, being a rational person, will always choose what seems to you to be the right thing, the wise thing, the most advisable thing to do. If you choose not to do the right thing, the advisable thing, the thing that you are inclined to do, you would, of coarse, be insane. You would be choosing something that you did not choose. You would find something preferable that you did not prefer. But you, being a rational and sane person choose something because it seems to you the right, proper, good, advantageous thing to do.3
This is precisely the point that Edwards makes with regard to motives. We choose according to that which we desire most. The problem, however, as we noted earlier, is that because the fall was total and not partial, and as a result we are all dead in our trespasses and sins desiring only sin by nature, what seems to us to be right, proper, and good is often wrong, improper, and bad. Sin has made us God-haters at the core of our souls so that we are all by nature at enmity with God. In order for us to do what God would have us to do, we need to be who God wants us to be. And in order for us to be who God wants us to be, we need new natures. And because we cannot change our own nature, no more than we can push a bus while we are riding in it, we are in need of the sovereign hand of grace to change it for us. We cannot do what pleases God because we will not do what pleases God. And the reason we will not is because we don’t want to.


“Natural Inability” and “Moral Inability”
We remember that what plagued Pelagius was the paradox of human responsibility to follow God’s holy commands and human inability. According to Pelagius, the fact that God commands us to obey him implies that we are able to obey him. If inability reigns, than God would be unjust to command our obedience. This problem, as we have seen, eventually led Pelagius to deny the universality of sin. He was unable to deal with the paradox. Edwards’ contribution to this issue is perhaps his most profound. Edwards distinguished between what he referred to as “natural inability” and “moral inability”. “We are said to be naturally unable to do a thing, when we can’t do it if we will, because what is most commonly called nature doesn’t allow it… Moral inability consists in the opposition or want of inclination”.4 In other words, I am said to be naturally unable to do a thing, no matter how hard I desire it, if nature doesn’t allow it, such as flying or walking on water. In this sense, we are all naturally able to do what is right. After all, we have all of the natural capacities to understand the law of God. We have a mouth that is physically capable of uttering praises to God. We have a will that enables us to choose to do what we want to do. Original sin does not eradicate our humanity or ability to make choices. The natural ability remains intact. God has endowed us with the natural ability to do what he requires of us. What we lack, however, is the moral ability. What was lost in the fall is the want or inclination to do that which is righteous. We have no desire to obey God. We have, in fact, no desire for God at all. Fallen man has the natural ability to choose God but he lacks the moral ability to do so. For this reason, God can justly command our obedience (because we have the necessary faculties of choice), and at the same time hold us responsible for the choices we make. A.W. Pink says, “By nature [man] possesses natural ability but lacks moral and spiritual ability. The fact that he does not possess the latter does not destroy his responsibility, because his responsibility rests upon the fact that he does possess the former”.5 Without a righteous inclination to do good, no one can choose good. Our decisions follow our inclinations. Sin has rendered us hopeless, according to Edwards, but this is precisely what makes the gospel so great.


The Greatness of the Gospel
“For Edwards, the greatness of the gospel is visible only when viewed against the backdrop of the greatness of the ruin into which we have been plunged by the fall. The greatness of the disease requires the greatness of the remedy”.6 As someone once said, “The worst word about us as sinners is not the last word”. It was the gospel that Edwards was interested in, not some theoretical debate. He knew that what made good news good was that it was preceded by bad news. Our fallen nature due to sin is bad news. Our natural inclination to sin is bad news. Our inability to incline ourselves godward is bad news. Our self-destruction as a result of our sin is bad news. The grace of God in redeeming man from this desperate state and changing his nature so that he will be free to serve God is not just good news, its great news.


Conclusion
In summary of Edwards’ view of free will, he believes that man is free in that he can and does choose according to his strongest inclinations — his desires. But because of original sin and the resulting corruption of humanity, no one is naturally inclined godward. In fact, we hate God by nature. We have the natural ability to please him but we lack the moral ability. Our nature has to be changed if we are to seek God and do what he pleases. And only God can liberate the sinner from his captivity to that which is destroying him, namely, his freedom! This is nothing more and nothing less than the gospel that Edwards so committed his life to.

S
sermonindex


I renamed this thread so that we can stay on the topic of a "Christian's Will".


A Brief History
There does not seem to be any record of a major controversy concerning man’s freedom in the decision-making process prior to the Pelagian controversy of the 5th century. To be sure, there were debates concerning “free will” prior to the Pelagian controversy (Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and others opposed determinism), but none that took center stage the way the Pelagian controversy did.

History -

About 1/3 of the way down on page 3, you'll find the earliest of the Early Church Fathers; those who were closest to the days of the Apostles; and their writings on the free-will of man.

C
Christinyou

If before being born again, who's will did we choose to do in our fallen nature? If our father was the devil who's nature are we willed to do?

The humaness of Jesus said, Father take this cup from me, God said drink and The Nature of Jesus which is of God His Father took the cup and drank. The sin of the whole world was poured into His body and it pleased The Father to allow that Body to be killed that sin might be killed for the believer.

We in nature of god our father, satan cannot choose the things of God. Only by a change of nature can a person choose outside the old man nature. Which when Christ is born again in the believer is crucified with Him. Now we can choose to do the things of God.

We do choose, depending who our Father is. By choosing Satan by Adam sin entered the world and all die. By Christ being birthed in the believer, which is Gods choice not mans, sin was nailed to the Cross and Christ becomes our nature and that is the Nature of God our Father which we can now choose to do, and live.

In Christ: Phillip

U
UntoBabes

By Christ being birthed in the believer, which is Gods choice not mans, sin was nailed to the Cross and Christ becomes our nature and that is the Nature of God our Father which we can not choose to do, and live.

Christinyou,

What you say sounds wonderful until compared with the Scriptures, then it falls apart because you make it all sound like it is an automatic operation, much like "Let God and let go", as if the human will have nothing to do with it.

Let me ask you this: Was the man in 1 Corinthinas 5: 1- 8 justified or not justified?

Please answer this one question for me.

C
Christinyou

corrected, not to now.

We do choose, depending who our Father is. By choosing Satan by Adam sin entered the world and all die. By Christ being birthed in the believer, which is Gods choice not mans, sin was nailed to the Cross and Christ becomes our nature and that is the Nature of God our Father which we can now choose to do, and live.

U
UntoBabes

What is the anwer, Christinyou.

Was the man in 1 Corinthians 5 a child of God or child of the Devil? Whose will was he doing?

C
Christinyou

Quote: """What you say sounds wonderful until compared with the Scriptures, then it falls apart because you make it all sound like it is an automatic operation, much like "Let God and let go", as if the human will have nothing to do with it.

Let me ask you this: Was the man in 1 Corinthinas 5: 1- 8 justified or not justified?

Please answer this one question for me."""

2 Corinthians 2:1-11 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Answer, Justified

This man was never unjustified. The discipline Paul proclaimed in 1 Cor 5: 1-8 was to bring the offender back from his sin into the body of Christ, in repentance and confession. Keeping him from the wiles of the devil. Paul speaks to this plainly, with tears and anguish of heart, Quote:
"So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him."

In Christ: Phillip

U
UntoBabes

Yes,That is the attitude we should have with a repentant sinner, but that is not my point.

Here is the following question. If this man was justified, and we know he was. then why was the will of God not worked in him with regard to his sin? Or let me phrase it this way. What causes a believer to sin? Why didn't the new nature which he now has overcome the old at all times? was it the will of God that he would sin?

S
sermonindex


I found this rather refreshing just now -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38272&forum=45


The Last Supper reminds me of the "Rewards." The Marriage Supper.
The Greatest Reward is to sit closest to Him, as John did, with his head on our Master's chest.

Wow, as soon as I typed those two last words - tears welled up.

Why was John "the disciple that Jesus loved" and given the Revelation?

Who decided who would sit where during the Last Supper, I wonder.

He told them that He wouldn't be eating that meal with them again until Glory.


Thanks to SI for posting that thread linked above and [eta] this latest ....

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38278&forum=45


"We would see Jesus"

C
Christinyou

Quote: """Re:
by UntoBabes on 2011/4/2 16:20:37

Yes,That is the attitude we should have with a repentant sinner, but that is not my point.

Here is the following question. If this man was justified, and we know he was. then why was the will of God not worked in him with regard to his sin? Or let me phrase it this way. What causes a believer to sin? Why didn't the new nature which he now has overcome the old at all times? was it the will of God that he would sin?"""

God forbid. NO!!!!

His own flesh mind with all the pulls of the flesh from the old man mind, that the work of the Holy Spirit must renew our mind to the Mind of Christ.

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Deuteronomy 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

God will chasten those He loves and like His Word and with His Word both will not return void.

Will of God vs the will of man:

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


Who do you think will win?

I know in whom I have believed and I know He will win, even with a stubborn will against Him. Was Paul exercising his own will when he was killing Christians. Who changed his will?

Praise God the will of Christ is kept straight and narrow in me for His will is perfect before our Father and my mind is being renewed to this truth. My will, no praise God. But like Jesus who only did the will of His Father, I press on for the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus, that I might do the will of our Father as Christ did. I am chastened, buffeted, perplexed, tempted, yea in all this I know I am more than a sinner even chief as Paul but I know nothing can separate me from the Love of Christ and His life in me. My will is His will and I can't leave Him because He won't leave me. Just as I love Him because He loved me first. He and the Father are One and He and I are one. My choice is now to do the will of my Lord and Savior and His Father and present this body a living sacrifice which is my spiritual service.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I am corruptible and I must put on incorruption, this incorruption is "Christ in me the Hope of Glory. It is not my will to change it, but once it is done my will is to put it on, "Not my will but His"

Is it your free will to die? Is it your free will to put on incorruption? Is it your free will to be given a new resurrected body like the Body of flesh and bone Jesus has?
Is my birthing by my free will? Even my own biological Parents did not consult with me and ask if I wanted to be born, that sure was not my free will and either is God going to consult with me to give me New Birth. After all this then my will, will be free to do His will by His Son that is in me.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

By the power of God and the resurrection of Christ and Him birthed in me I seek not mine own will but now by the Christ nature in me I also seek the will of the Father who birthed me. If you want to call this free will, then Jesus paid a price beyond comprehension to give it to me.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

His own flesh mind with all the pulls of the flesh from the old man mind, that the work of the Holy Spirit must renew our mind to the Mind of Christ.


Would just like to explain how I see this one quote only and not answer for UntoBabes regarding the rest of your reply.

This answer that you gave friend, is not how Paul reacted to this Church at Corinth and this man and is part of what this thread is about. Not passing unto GOD what a saved man should know within himself; if the Spirit indeed dwells within him and if he's read GOD's Word at all.

Paul's reaction to their "boasting" over 'abundant grace' to cover this man's sin was obvious and he also called it pride - "puffed up" and "glorying" in the grace they thought covered even this man's sin. (sounds like these days we're living in.) How could we guess they were "glorying" or were "puffed up" by allowing this to continue on in His Church? I'd say - doing what this generation is doing - believing in a 'cheap grace' or easy believism - obvious from the whole of 1 Corth 5.

Paul tells them in 5:9 that he had already written them to not keep company with fornicators and in vs 11 Paul goes on to list all types of sins that one could be living in that we are to seperate ourselves from and from those who are living that way.

The root of All of sin is pride. It's man saying "I deserve" -- whatever it is that GOD condemns.
His Word says to "Humble yourself" and to prayerfully see that the more we Love Him, the less we'll love 'self', which is pride that causes us to think we deserve anything more than what He's provided for us. That leads to sin - self-pride.

What does He require of us who claim to love Him more than ourselves?

Rom 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

There are a number of commands in these verses above and our minds are "renewed" by the Word that we have and the measure of faith that's He has 'Already' provided to us.

In Ephesians 5, Paul describes the marriage relationship as symbolic of our Christ and His Church.
Earlier, in that same chpt. Paul gives instruction against sexual immorality and drunkeness and to "see then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil." Eph 5:15, 16

More commands that we are to choose to either take seriously or keep saying "GOD has to do something" or that we're waiting for the Holy Spirit to MAKE us obey His Word.
There would be no commands in the N.T., if we weren't given the free-will to obey or "submit" to them. It's obvious from this man and his church in Corinth that after Paul warned them of fornication, that they still allowed such gross sin in and even gloried in their "grace over sin" extreme.

But back to the Ephesians 5 example Marriage and Christ and His Church, we can see the Wife's side of "submission" to her Husband-Christ.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Submitting to The WORD of GOD, Who is Christ and His Word.
She's washed by the water by the Word as she takes of it and submits to it and should bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ-The Word.
That's how the mind is renewed, by keeping His Word in our minds and not continually on our own thoughts or desires.
If a man reads the Word and forgets it intentionally, it's like looking in the mirror and forgetting what he saw. That's actual willful disobedience and actually, what happened in Corinth and with every one of us who sins against knowledge.

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


We only love Jesus as much as we love & keep His Word. And that's the bottomline.

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sermonindex

Philip, I'm Not trying to pick on you, but these things need to be looked at by His Word along and not our own emotions.

From page 7 -

UntoBabes asked:
"Let me ask you this: Was the man in 1 Corinthinas 5: 1- 8 justified or not justified?"

You answered:
"Answer, Justified. This man was never unjustified"

That's not what Paul was saying here -

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit 'may be saved' in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Nor here -

1Co 6:9, 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.


The man needed the harshest of all excommunications that there is - to be turned over to Satan also, for the destruction of his body that his spirit may be saved.

If he had died while still in that sin with his father's wife - he would have gone to hell, is what Paul made quite clear in 1st Corinthians and also in Galatians -

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So no, not until this man fully repented was he "justified" or saved.

M
murrcolr

by Christinyou on 2011/4/3 5:14:21

Quote: """Re:
by UntoBabes on 2011/4/2 16:20:37

Here is the following question. If this man was justified, and we know he was. then why was the will of God not worked in him with regard to his sin? Or let me phrase it this way. What causes a believer to sin? Why didn't the new nature which he now has overcome the old at all times? was it the will of God that he would sin?"""

Gal 1:15-17 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

You might ask why did I quote this scripture in regards to your question,”What causes a believer to sin? Why didn't the new nature which he now has overcome the old at all times?” was it the will of God that he would sin?"""

In the scripture above there are two works that God did in Paul’s life that I would like to point out to you.

1.\tcalled me through his grace
2.\treveal his Son in me

On the way to Damascus Paul was converted, Born Again, Let pause and think about this man the Chief of all sinners, the Pharisee of Pharisee’s who was full of bitterness, rage, anger. Today it would be like Bin Laden or of one of those Zealous Muslim clerics turning to Christ…

What battles did he face after conversion well let Paul’s testify: Rom. 7:18-20 "For I know that in me, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do its but sin that dwelleth in me"

There was a battle raging on the inside two natures at odds with each other…

The Old man derives its existence from Adam, and consequently is of the earth, earthy. The New man derives its existence through the new birth from the second Adam—the Lord Jesus Christ—and so is from heaven.

But Paul also taught very clearly that we should not be in bondage to sin…It’s not God will for us to sin..

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

What I want you to take note of in the verses below are this “obedient from the heart” servants to sin being obedient in the heart to sin, but we are told that we are delivered and made free from sin we should become obedient in the heart to righteousness and be servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:17-18 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

To be obedient in the heart to righteousness and be servants of righteousness we need the Holy Spirit to reveal his Son in Us…. The Old man with obedience to sin must go and the New Man who is obedient to Righteousness must be revealed in us.

These words in Gal 1:16 To reveal means 601 601 apokalupto ap-ok-al-oop'-to from 575 and 2572; to take off the cover, i.e. disclose:--reveal. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 2572.

What was covered that needed revealing the Son of God Jesus Christ, what was covering him the Old man your Old nature which loved sin and lived to sin and was a servant to sin. Know that your born again there is fight and that nature will cause you to fall and stumble because it is a servant to sin. The price has been paid at the cross and if you are to live a life as a servant to righteousness and be obedient to righteousness in the heart just as the New man Christ was a servant to righteousness you must allow the Holy Spirit to apply the death blow to that Adamic nature.

Rom 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Spiritual baptism, a Baptism into Christ, is the purifying of the heart by the Holy Spirit, now if you would enter into this death to sin, you must be baptized with the Holy Spirit…

Many claim “I am filled with the Holy Spirit” I would ask and challenge you if you claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit are you dead to sin, is your heart pure, are you Holy as he is Holy are you a servant of righteousness?

Let us then, not rest until we are conscious that we are dead and buried, by spiritual baptism into Christ's death, until we are planted in the likeness of his death, and so crucified with Him that the body of death is fully destroyed.

U
UntoBabes

murrcolr, you said:

Let us then, not rest until we are conscious that we are dead and buried, by spiritual baptism into Christ's death, until we are planted in the likeness of his death, and so crucified with Him that the body of death is fully destroyed.


This is precisly my point.
You said: " Let us then not rest,.."
Who are you talking to?

I hear this in almost every sermon even by Calvinists. They say that we have nothing to do with our salvation by when they speak they say things like this: Let us do this or that....., We must allow the Holy Spirit....,

Here is my question: If there are only two elements that are working in the believer, the new nature and the old nature, then what is that third element that everyone seems to be refering to. That third element that decides which of the two to put on, Christ or Adam?

M
murrcolr

UntoBabes question: If there are only two elements that are working in the believer, the new nature and the old nature, then what is that third element that everyone seems to be refering to. That third element that decides which of the two to put on, Christ or Adam?

We don’t put on the Adamic nature we are born with it we are carnal sold under sin, with unbelief you keep the Old Adamic nature and struggle with sin trying to keep a law that you can’t keep because the law is spiritual.

So if you are looking for me to point you to a third element it would be faith, because the law is spiritual no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart, no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God and it is given because of faith…

Rom 6:17-18 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

To be obedient in the heart to righteousness and be servants of righteousness we need the Holy Spirit to do this and it done in us by faith....

D
davidc

Unto Babes.

"Here is my question: If there are only two elements that are working in the believer, the new nature and the old nature, then what is that third element that everyone seems to be refering to. That third element that decides which of the two to put on, Christ or Adam?"

Your question really gets to the point. The third element is "I". And this is where faith, the faith of the Son of God, comes in.

The Flesh says:

I will not have this man to reign over me. crucify Him.

Faith says:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live IN THE FLESH, I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."

But personally, I do not see that the scriptures really support a dual nature. "Those that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.". This is not a command, but an invitation, a bidding.

Christ has done everything so that we can now live, in the flesh, by the faith of the son of God.


David

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sermonindex

Friends, what I wonder is though - if we are "as He was in this world", what do we do with our time? Our thoughts?

If you understand what I mean. I see the Apostles and see a total "pouring out" of every minute of their days to or for Him.

Just as Jesus did while on earth. He never stopped doing for others. His mind was constantly hearing the direction of The Father and we're supposed to be the same way - always heeding the leading of His Spirit - but we don't see much of that, except from maybe missionaries on the field or maybe from people in the ministry in countries where it's illegal to be a Christian. Where they believe in being "poured out like a drink offering" as unto The LORD. Everyday filled with nothing but what is centered on Him.

Isn't it possible, that if we didn't have so much "time spent on self" that we'd have less time to find ourselves struggling with sin?

Just posting my thoughts again. I'm not a legalist, but I can't see being saved and then going about life as usual.
Does anyone here know what I'm trying to ask?

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savannah


The following is from one who could not post for himself on this forum for several reasons,one of those reasons being that he has no computer.

“I feel persuaded that false doctrine, inasmuch as it touches God’s sovereignty, is always an object of divine jealousy. Let me indicate especially the doctrines of free-will. I know there are some good men who hold and preach them, but I am persuaded that the Lord must be grieved with their doctrine though he forgives them their sin of ignorance. Free-will doctrine—what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent upon human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice it holds God to be a debtor to sinners, so that if he gives grace to one he is bound to do so to all. It teaches that the blood of Christ was shed equally for all men and since some are lost, this doctrine ascribes the difference to man’s own will, thus making the atonement itself a powerless thing until the will of man gives it efficacy. Those sentiments dilute the scriptural description of man’s depravity, and by imputing strength to fallen humanity, rob the Spirit of the glory of his effectual grace: this theory says in effect that it is of him that willeth, and of him that runneth, and not of God that showeth mercy.

Any doctrine, my brethren, which stands in opposition to this truth—”I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,” provokes God’s jealousy. I often tremble in this pulpit lest I should utter anything which should oppose the sovereignty of my God; and though you know I am not ashamed to preach the responsibility of man to God—if God be a sovereign, man must be bound to obey him—on the other hand, I am equally bold to preach that God has a right to do what he wills with his own, that he giveth no account of his matters and none may stay his hand, or say unto him, “What doest thou?” I believe that the free-will heresy assails the sovereignty of God, and mars the glory of his dominion. In all faithfulness, mingled with sorrow, I persuade you who have been deluded by it, to see well to your ways and receive the truth which sets God on high, and lays the creature in the dust.” — C. H. Spurgeon

May all holding to this heresy consider well the exhortation in Spurgeon's last sentence in the above quote.


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sermonindex

Men, equally as great as Spurgeon have felt the complete opposite, as we see the quotes from the earliest of the early church fathers here on page 3.

Many, myself included, read Romans 9-11 as Paul explaining the postition of the Jews to a bunch of gentiles. When read slowly, it's possible that one may see if that is so. Was Paul discussing where Israel as a people stand and how he chose them and does not the book of Hebrews 11 speak of the "faith in action" of Abraham.

We see that there is only One Bride of Christ. One day, we and the true remnant of Israel will make up that one Body.

He called Israel His wife and gave us that same relationship in Eph 5.

It's a marriage relationship. The wife "submits" to her Husband. That's a choice and always has been, as He states in Eph 5.
He commands us to "love" Him and others as ourselves and makes that a basis for our very salvation. I posted all of the verses on love on an earlier page. How or why would He command us to do anything at all if we had "no choice". Why say that He puts "life or death before us and compels us to choose life"?

Bless Brother Spurgeon's writings, of which I cherish many on my bookshelf but I don't have to agree with everything that all of my favorite Classic Authors have written. Not too many of them all on this Site agree with each other and yet accepted one another and we respect them.

I'm bound to what commands I see in His Word and I normally will check what these earliest of the ECF teach as well, when it becomes this controversial a topic.

If there's no freewill, than there would be no commands in our N.T. and no "if you will" and no "if you don't" type verses.

I'll still cherish "Morning and Evening" and many others of his writings.

Even Adam Clarke.

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savannah


“Do we have a will? Yes, of course we have a will. If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior monergistic work of regeneration then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.

The semi-Pelagian doctrine of free will prevalent in the evangelical world today is a pagan view that denies the captivity of the human heart to sin. It underestimates the stranglehold that sin has upon us.”

"Many persons naturally assume that man has a free will. But what do they mean by this? You may want to ask them to define terms by asking, “Free from what?” “Free from sin?”, “Free from God’s decree?” No, neither. So what do people actually mean when they claim man has a free will? Perhaps many persons mean to say that man is free from external coersion. In this we all can agree, but just because someone is free from coersion does not mean his will is free. There are other ways in which man’s will is not free. If the natural man make choices BY NECESSITY then he also lacks a kind of freedom. We might want to consider whether the Bible uses the expression ‘freedom’ to describe any fallen man. And the answer is no, not UNTIL Christ sets us free (Rom 6). Jesus says that prior to grace, persons are ‘slaves to sin’. And a slave is not free. If man is in bondage to a corruption of nature, as the Scripture attests, then he is not, in any sense, free as the Bible defines it. That is, until the grace of God in Christ sets him free. It would be correct to say man HAS A WILL and that his choices are VOLUNTARY (not coerced) but this does not make the choices free. Fallen man chooses sin of NECESSITY due to a corruption of nature, and this is just as much a form of bondage of the will from which we need to be set free by Christ, and a more properly biblical way of expression. Just because we make these choices, of necessity, does not alleviate our responsibility. If we borrow $5 million and squander it in a week of wild living in Las Vegas, our inability to repay the debt does not alleviate us of any responsibility to do so (see Rom 3:20). So I contend that whenever speaking about the concept of “free will,” because of the confusion surrounding it, we should only define freedom as the Bible does: that man’s will is not free, but rather is in bondage to sin. Clearly the Bible affirms that apart from a supernatural and merciful work of the Holy Spirit to change our naturally hostile disposition to God, no person would ever receive Christ (John 6:65). And Just as water does not rise above its source, so unspiritual men do not think or act spiritually (1 Cor 2:14). -” J.W.H

FREE WILL

At this very moment you are reading these words because you choose of your own free will to read them. You may protest and say, “No! I didn’t choose to read them. I was given an assignment to read this. I really don’t want to be reading it.” Perhaps that is the case. Nevertheless you are reading it. Maybe there are other things you would rather be doing at the moment, but you have made a choice to read it nevertheless. You decided to read it instead of not reading it.

I don’t know why you are reading this. But I do know that you must have a reason for reading it. If you had no reason to read it, you simply would not have chosen to read it.

Every choice that we make in life we make for some reason. Our decisions are based upon what seems good for us at the moment, all things considered. We do some things out of intense desire. We do other things with no awareness of desire at all. Yet the desire is there or we wouldn’t choose to do them. This is the very essence of free will—to choose according to our desires.

Jonathan Edwards, in his work The Freedom of the Will, defines the will as “that by which the mind chooses.” There can be no doubt that human beings do indeed make choices. I am choosing to write, you are choosing to read. I will to write, and writing is set in motion. When the idea of freedom is added, however, the issue becomes terribly complicated. We have to ask, freedom to do what? Even the most ardent Calvinist would not deny that the will is free to choose whatever it desires. Even the most ardent Arminian would agree that the will is not free to choose what it does not desire.

With regard to salvation, the question then becomes, what do human beings desire? The Arminian believes that some desire to repent and be saved. Others desire to flee from God and thus reap eternal damnation. Why different people have different desires is never made clear by the Arminian. The Calvinist holds that all human beings desire to flee from God unless and until the Holy Spirit performs a work of regeneration. That regeneration changes our desires so that we will freely repent and be saved.

It is important to note that even the unregenerate are never forced against their will. Their wills are changed without their permission, but they are always free to choose as they will. Thus we are indeed free to do as we will. We are not free, however, to choose or select our nature. One cannot simply declare, “Henceforth I will desire only the good” anymore than Christ could have declared, “Henceforth I will desire only evil.” This is where our freedom stops.

The Fall left the human will intact insofar as we still have the faculty of choosing. Our minds have been darkened by sin and our desires bound by wicked impulses. But we can still think, choose, and act. Yet something terrible has happened to us. We have lost all desire for God. The thoughts and desires of our heart are only evil continuously. The freedom of our will is a curse. Because we can still choose according to our desires, we choose to sin and thus we become accountable to the judgment of God.

Until our heart is changed by the Holy Spirit, we have no desire for Christ. Without that desire we never will choose Him. God must awaken our soul and give us a desire for Christ before we will ever be inclined to choose Him.

Edwards said that as fallen human beings we retain our natural freedom (the power to act according to our desires) but lose moral freedom. Moral freedom includes the disposition, inclination, and desire of the soul toward righteousness. It is this inclination that was lost in the Fall.

Every choice I make is determined by something. There is a reason for it, a desire behind it. This sounds like determinism. By no means! Determinism teaches that our actions are completely controlled by something external to us, making us do what we don’t want to do. That is coercion and is opposed to freedom.

How can our choices be determined but not coerced? Because they are determined by something within—by what we are and by what we desire. They are determined by ourselves. This is self-determination, which is the very essence of freedom.

To be sure, for us to choose Christ, God must change our heart. That is precisely what He does. He changes our heart for us. He gives us a desire for Himself that we otherwise would not have. Then we choose Him out of the desire that is within us. We freely choose Him because we want to choose Him. That is the wonder of His grace." J.W.H

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sermonindex

Quote: "Do we have a will? Yes, of course we have a will. If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will."


Well, that's good to know. :)

Quote: "If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior monergistic work of regeneration then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being."


Bro Savannah, we covered this already. Haven't you read the thread and why I titled the thread as I have? :)

I'll read the rest of your (or J.W.H.'s) thesis tomorrow. I've had enough reading for one day. Even with the page bumped up to 162%.
Could it be my age that 12 hours of reading in a day should bother my eyes somehow?


TTYL :)

D
davym


Hi JiG

I sympathise with your weariness in reading. A lot of heavy information on this thread. Some good stuff though.

I think in living the Christian life we are certainly responsible for the decisions we make. The wonder of it all is that we desire to please God at all. We sing a little chorus in our church which goes

Jesus, all for Jesus,
All I am and have and ever hope to be.
Jesus, all for Jesus,
All I am and have and ever hope to be.

All of my ambitions, hopes and plans
I surrender these into Your hands.
All of my ambitions, hopes and plans
I surrender these into Your hands.

For it's only in Your will that I am free,
For it's only in Your will that I am free,
Jesus, all for Jesus,
All I am and have and ever hope to be.


It's the third verse that I feel captures the essence of what we're talking about. It's a magnificent paradox that, in effect, only when we are living in God's perfect will for our lives, are we perfectly free.


As far as man's free will in salvation is concerned, I think controversy arises over God's sovereignty and human free will because of the incorrect use of antithesis (Direct contrast; opposition). Are God's sovereignty and man's free will indeed mutually exclusive? Can they not exist in parallel?
To bring the two together is the mystery of mysteries. Please don't ask me to explain it.

I believe that God is sovereign over all, otherwise He wouldn't be God. I also believe there are no conscripts in heaven.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)


U
UntoBabes

For it's only in Your will that I am free,
For it's only in Your will that I am free,
Jesus, all for Jesus,
All I am and have and ever hope to be.

Beautiful verse. I think all finally agree.

U
UntoBabes

savannah,

A day ago I read this following exhortation to Spurgeon, but after reading the article you posted by him, I had to wonder as our Lord did how can one fountain produce both sweet water and bitter. Our Lord called this hypocrisy. All I did was to stick to the context of Scriptures and let the Holy Spirit be my guide instead of commentaries. In other words, I followed Mr. Spurgeon.s counsel to honor God's Word above the word of man, to make the Scriptures my guide instead of man's opinion.


(((Dicipline in Christ's Army by C.H. Spurgeon)))

"Whatever post the Lord Jesus commits to you, take care that you hold it till he comes, or till you, yourself, are called home to the heavenly head quarters. Hold fast, as with a grip of steel, every doctrine which the Lord has taught you whether others approve of it or not. Hold fast also, and endeavor, by the aid of God’s Spirit, to put into practice, every precept of the Lord. Value the practical part of Christianity as well as the doctrinal, and prize them both beyond gold. Be not of the mind of those who say of Christ’s rules, “These are of little consequence.” No; your Master’s command cannot be a trifle, and the spirit which thinks little of anything which Jesus commands is an evil spirit, and we must pray against it, and strive against, it. Make it a matter of conscience to follow Jesus at all hazards whithersoever he goeth. Stand up for the Scriptures, and the true gospel, and “contend earnest for the faith once delivered to the saints.” Do not give up a hair of the head of truth, nor let her enemies take away so much as the latchet of her shoes.

Get hold of a truth, my dear brother or sister, and you have laid hold of that in which God dwells. Know your Bible thoroughly, and believe what the Bible reveals; and then, if there are arrayed against Biblical truth all the powers of Christendom, all the Kings and princes and prelates and priests joined together, you may rest assured that they will only be as so much chaff driven before the wind. If they believe error, and advocate error, all their pomp and power will be but as the wind, and the earthquake, and the fire, in which God was not; but in your calm, quiet adherence to the truth of God with a tenacity that would brave even martyrdom rather than renounce what God has revealed to you in his Word, and by his Spirit, there is a power that must win in the long run; so hold to it, and be not afraid.

“Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.” Never let go your shield of faith. Under ridicule and persecution, buckle it to your arm. Grip firmly that blessed sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; let no man take from you a single text of it. Speak up for the blessed truth, and stand to your gun; this will gall the enemy, and protect yourself. Rally to the colors, and wrap them around your heart when they seem to be in peril; — I mean, the blood-red colors of the cross of Christ.

Dear young brethren who love the Lord, I know you have a hard fight of it when you get among your fellow-men who are so mean as to ridicule you; but never say “Die”; never give up your faith, never yield to their sins, nor give them countenance by so much as joining in their laughter. Do not be misled by false teachers, but obey the Word of God, and follow that alone. Read it for yourselves, and what you see there lay hold upon, and let it be your religion."

--Charles Spurgeon

U
UntoBabes

The power of Indoctrination.

As the Pagan Romans tortured and killed the Christian in the first century, they shouted: “ Away with the atheist”. The Pagans believed the Christian were atheists because they had no temples and gods made with wood, and stones in the fashion of man , beast, and creeping things. If the Christians were to try to convince the pagans that they worshipping only one God, the maker of heaven and earth, the pagans would laugh them to scorn. To the pagan, there was only one way to worship . If you did not conform to it, you were an atheist. This is called “ The Power of Indoctrination”. It is a very powerful force that drives people to murder and persecute others in the name of religion.
By believing that any opposing view to what they themselves hold to be the only truth is a heresy that deserves death.

Many a time Christians were falsely accused and persecuted in the name of religion by religious zealots who fulfilled the Prophecy of our Lord when he said: “ An hour is coming when those who kill you think they offer God a favor.”

We do not deny that heresies and heretics do exist and must be warned against, but are we accusing people of heresies because they do not hold to our views or because they do not believe the written Word of God? Are we willing to admit that we may be wrong. Are we willing to examine what we think is the only truth.

A
ArtB

Jesus-is-God wrote: "I see freewill everywhere in the Book and with it, "obedience".

Obedience to what?

One can strive to obedience to their parents, local laws, Employers, authorities, peer pressure.

One can strive for "obedience" to the promptings of their flesh.

One can strive for "obedience" to God's contract with the peoples known as the Mosaic Laws.

One Can have obedience to the New Contract of Jesus Christ?

Can you clarify what you mean by your use of the word 'obedience' that you used in your post above?

( BTW, I'm referencing your post on the 1st page of this thread.) I did not realize this thread was 9 pages long.

(Also your statement) "What has troubled me, is when we would post the upteen many verses that are seen as commands to obedience, as I mentioned in the OP, the shout of "WORKS" would be thrown at us."

I think this concern you have will be alleviate once you understand what exactly we are called to believe.

U
UntoBabes

{Some content deleted after prayer.}


Not of he who willeth nor of he who runeth. Rom 9:16

Please read slowly the context of this verse.:

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

And :

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


After you read these Scriptures very slowly several times please ask this question.
To whom mercy was shown in the following Scripture:

28But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Matt 21: 28-32


(1) The first son is the Gentile who was astray from his Father’s will but did not continue in his state of unbelief.

(Eph 2:12,13)
12 At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

(2) The second son is the Jew who was in his Father’s will IN FORM ONLY. This is called self-righteousness.
A self righteous person is someone who has a form of godliness but denies its power. He is a professor but not a possessor. He is someone who honors God with his lips but his heart is far from Him. He is some one who says: Yes, Father. I will go and work in your vineyard, but does not go. He is someone who performs works of obedience grudgingly without real love. He is some one who can write volumes about the sovereignty of God but does not give God sovereignty over his own life. He is someone who may not commit physical adultery, but commits heart adultery. He is someone who may not commit actual murder but hates his brother.

Jesus asked : which of the two did his Father’s will? They said: The first. Because although he lived a life of rebellion against his Father, he finally repented and did his Father’s will
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots ( first son) go into the kingdom of God before you ( second son )
32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

But notice why the first son was received. It is because he repented and believed . And notice why the second son was rejected. It is because although he sounded good outwardly ( established his own righteousness ),he really did not repent or believe For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Now, go back and read Romans again several times more.

What does it mean then when it says: Not of him who wills nor of him who runs.
Not of him who wills( to establish one’ own righteousness or perform the works of the law without faith that works by love) .

The will here does not mean man’s free will.
The harlots and publicans exercised their free will when they believed. Does free will depends on being righteous. If that was the case, then how could the worst sinners like the harlots and publicans believe? It is the very fact that they were sinners that made them resort to faith. If they were good or thought they were good, they would have had no need for faith. Faith requires spiritual poverty. The essence of faith is to realize one’s inability to save one’ self. The greater the spiritual poverty>> the greater the need>> the greater the faith.

None Calvinists do not think less of the sovereignty of God. God has every right to have mercy on whom He will have mercy and to have compassion on whom he will have compassion. But the Bible did not leave us clueless as to whom God chooses to have mercy and compassion on. God has provided the only way by whom man may receive God’s mercy and His compassion. That way is Christ. He that believes is not condemned, and he that does not believe is condemned.

Mr. Spurgeon needed to read his Bible more and theologians less.

U
UntoBabes


Now, I want to go back to the question I had about the man in 1 Corinthians 5:1-8

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Jesus is God,

You said he was not justified.

Can you then explain on what basis was his spirit saved?

U
UntoBabes


Christinyou,

You said the man was justified,
You also said it was not the will of god that he sinned. You posted James:

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Then you have to explain why does a Christian sin if man’s will has nothing to do with it. In other words, if man does not exercise his free choice as to which should have the reign in his body, Adam or Christ, the flesh or the Spirit. Then the Spirit will always overcome the flesh and Christ in the believer will always overcome Adam, or the new man will always overcome the old man and the Christian would reach perfection instantly. The fact that this is not the case shows that man has the choice to walk in the Spirit or fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

S
sermonindex

The man was dealt with in a severe manner by the Church, being obedient to Paul's directive and the man Repented, from what we gather in 2 Corth 2, his repentence touched Paul's heart, in that, at the first, this same Church that allowed so much, was now needing to be told to forgive this man and love him back into the fellowhship of the Church.

2Co 2:3-9 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

U
UntoBabes

davidc,

I agree with you but you are an idealist, because we have witnessed in others and ourselves and the scripture testifies to the fact that Christians do fall. If the Christian commits only one act of sin after justification. Only one thought of malice, or one sin of omission ( which means to not do what you aught to do ) , or the minutest sin. You still have to explain the source of it if the flesh is dead never to rise again.

I think the flesh being dead is contingent upon abiding in Christ, but that is precisely what the Christian fails to do.

I will then ask you the same question about the man in 1 Corinthians 5.
Was he justified or not.
If you say yes, then explain why he sinned. And if you say no, then explain on what basis was his soul saved.

U
UntoBabes

Yes, Jesus is God.
Amen, but you did not answer whether you think he was justified or not. Remember, Paul said his soul was saved before his repentance.So, on what basis was his soul saved.

S
sermonindex

I'm Sorry UB friend, I'm losing or missing something here -


I'll need to ask - where did Paul say that the man's soul was saved before his repentence?


And, how is justification different than salvation?


I was just reading the chpt of 2 Peter 2 and now need to go back and read it again, slowly and take it all in. Absorb it.

GOD Bless you!

U
UntoBabes

Murrcolr,

Yes I understand, we do not put on the adamic nature. We are born with it.

Let me make this simpler for you.

When Paul says in Galatians 5:16
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Who is he talking to?
He is not talking to faith, is he?
If this command is not obeyed, faith is not going to be judged. It is the person or body of believers whom he is talking to.
Faith is the tool by which we can walk in the Spirit.

There is nothing good in the flesh, the best thing for the flesh is to be put to death, the flesh will not obey God’s law. The flesh need to be overcome and put to death by the Spirit.
Now, we know that the flesh is not always dead, if that was the case, we would not sin ever again. And we know that if it was all up to God, He would do the job perfectly in putting the flesh to death by the Spirit.

So, if the human will is absent, we would be free from sin . Hat fact that we are not perfectly free from sin leaves us with two possibilities.

(1) God has failed to do the job.
(2) God has given to man free will to obey from the heart and not in a coerced manner.


What say you?

U
UntoBabes

Blessings Jesus is God,

I listed the two accounts side by side for you.
I believe the account in 1 Corinthians 5: 1-13 was before the man repented.

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And 2 Corinthians 2: 5-11 was after Paul heard of his repetance.

5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.


I believe this was a common theme in the first century church. When people sinned against the Holy Spirit they became sick or fell asleep to stop them from further sinning and also to save their souls.


Please also see 1 Corinthians 11: 17- 34

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


Also see Acts 5:1-11

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


Also see 1 Corinthians 3 :11-17

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


The conclusion is: there are those who will be saved gloriously, and those who will be saved but as with fire.

I am not sure of this but a friend said to me that Spurgeon said of this last passage in 1 Corinthians 3 of those who are saved but as with fire is like going to heaven with your coat tail on fire. I can’t verify that Spurgeon said this but I thought that was funny, although it is not funny since we are talking about the destiny of people.


I am done for today.

C
Christinyou

Untobabes wrote; Quote:

"""Then you have to explain why does a Christian sin if man’s will has nothing to do with it. In other words, if man does not exercise his free choice as to which should have the reign in his body, Adam or Christ, the flesh or the Spirit. Then the Spirit will always overcome the flesh and Christ in the believer will always overcome Adam, or the new man will always overcome the old man and the Christian would reach perfection instantly. The fact that this is not the case shows that man has the choice to walk in the Spirit or fulfill the lusts of the flesh."""


When the mind is inticed by the old memories, the lust of the flesh remembers the pleasure of sin. I have thought of them as, body pulls of the flesh remembered, this is how the mind controls actions, the more you think and are inticed to memories the more you cannot forget, if you want call them freewill, ok. If I say don't think about barbacue, what do you think about? They which concieve and bring forth sin and death are the old mine unrenewed body pulls in our mind. That is why we are commanded by the renewing of our mind to the mind of Christ and the lust of the flesh becomes less and less. The longer a person is a Christ One the less he sins.

In the old man nature, these are the reason we cannot believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and be saved. That is why God must rebirth our nature from satan nature to God nature. Birthing comes by the Father placing the incorruptable Seed in the believer, "Born Again". Now we can renew our mind to the mind of Christ. This is why I must by faith die daily, being crucified with Chrsit, that now my thoughts and actions are becoming the actions of the renewing of my mind to the mind of Christ. Now I truly have a free will to choose that which is pleasing to God, because I am becoming "as He is in this world so are we".

It is like a smoker who smokes in his house, the smell never goes away unless everything in the house is born again new. This takes time and lots of new material, The Word of God. I am being changed from faith to faith and grace to grace, all because of new material, The Word of God. Col 1:27

In Christ a new creature, with my mind becoming accustomed to the New Life in Chrsit which the Father has placed in me, by His choosing and His will to do His good pleasure, not mine.

Phillip

D
davidc

Unto Babes. Sorry I'm a bit late in replying.

You say

"I think the flesh being dead is contingent upon abiding in Christ, but that is precisely what the Christian fails to do."

The first part of the sentence about abiding in Christ, I agree wholeheartedly with. But to say that is what the christian fails to do is to agree with the adversary. If, as you put it, we are justified, then the scripture says that, being justified, we have peace with God, and access by faith into His grace, wherein we stand. This is not failure, but the victory of Him who bought us.

As regarding falling away, and sinning as a christian, I can only testify that Christ in me won't let me fall, even if my heart goes that way, He is greater than my heart, and knows me through and through. He holds me up above the floods of sin and temptation. See the testimony of Habakkuk

Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation. The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. Hab 3:17-19 (KJV)

We should not be pleading for sin or reasons for it, but pleading for the faith of Christ Jesus

Regarding 1 Cor 5, I believe the scriptures say he was called a brother (v11); that they were to judge those that are within (v12), and that he sinned. I do not know why he sinned, God knew his heart; I do know that God was glorified, and the whole church cleared through his restoration and their obedience, and there the matter was finished.

David

M
murrcolr

Unto Babes

So, if the human will is absent, we would be free from sin . Hat fact that we are not perfectly free from sin leaves us with two possibilities.

(1) God has failed to do the job.
(2) God has given to man free will to obey from the heart and not in a coerced manner.

What say you?

Does a Servant have a choice?

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Servant Strongs word 1401 doulos
(a) a slave, bondman, man of servile condition.
(b) one who gives himself up to another's will.
(c) devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests.

A servant is compelled to obey his master commands, through the craftiness of sin it would lead you to believe that you have a choice but you don’t you are a slave Romans 7:16-17

Your like a puppet on a string dancing to the Sin’s song of bondage.

You see sin promotes self and replaces Jesus (who should be Lord of your life) with the self convincing you that you’re the Lord of your life and it’s a lie your not the Lord of your life while in bondage to sin in that condition you’re a slave…

So know lets discuss the believer someone who is Born Again….

Do they have the right to think what they like to say what they like?

Jesus Christ said "That is a new commandment, the one commandment: Love one another as I have loved you."

How often do Christians even on sermon index when there posting do Christians have sharp criticism, sharp judgment, hasty opinion, unloving words, contempt of each other and condemnation for each other!

So what is working inside Christians that would cause them to be this way, when in there inner man they know deep, deep down inside that they shouldn’t be acting in this way to there brother or sister?

Is that there free will that they choose to act that way?

I put to you that it’s sin the grand puppeteer who is causing them to dance to the song of bondage…sin that promotes the self life in you, convincing them that they are the greatest sermon index poster ever to walk the face of Gods earth and all this other Christians should be in awe of my ability to post with great wisdom.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Does that above scripture sound like a man who is free to choose? He knows what is right he wants to do what is right but can’t perform it. That’s slavery we know what we should do but can’t do it.

You see self is our greatest curse but Christ came to redeem us from self and deliverance from the self means to be a vessel overflowing with love to everybody all the day.

It is only when we are delivered from self that we really have a choice and the choice we have to make at that time is to fully surrender to God and become a bond servant…

Romans 7:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Become servants Strongs 1402 douloō

(a) to make a slave of, reduce to bondage
(b) give myself wholly to one's needs and service, make myself a bondman to him

The definition of a bond servant is “devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests.”

That person is a person who has been made free and has decide to give up what he wants, his hope, his desires, his wants, his needs and “HIS WILL” to serve another.

S
sermonindex

I'm not big on starting threads - but I started this one and have posted enough posts by now and few if any have been answered. Yet, others are posting, desiring me to answer to them. How fair are we being to one another here Brethren?

From Page 8 - I'll re-post my question with a tad more explaining included - with all due respect to "His Body".
____________________________________________

Friends, what I wonder is though - if we are "as He was in this world", what do we do with our time? Our thoughts?

If you understand what I mean. I see the Apostles and see a total "pouring out" of every minute of their days to or for Him.

Just as Jesus did while on earth. He never stopped doing for others. His mind was constantly 'hearing' the direction of The Father, and we're supposed to be doing the same way - always heeding the leading of His Spirit and His Word - but we don't see much of that, except from maybe missionaries on the field or maybe from people in the ministry in countries where it's 'illegal' to be a Christian. Where they believe in being "poured out like a drink offering" as unto The LORD. Everyday filled with nothing but what is centered on and in Him.

Isn't it possible, that if we didn't have so much "time spent on self" that we'd have less time to find ourselves struggling with sin? Don't we have a "choice" in how we spend our thought lives, our time, and what we'll do with our thoughts and time?

Just posting my thoughts again. I'm not a legalist, but I can't see being saved and then going about life as usual. Doing "whatever" and not pouring whatever short lives we have (compared to ETERNITY) out for the Mind of Christ and His Purposes.
Does anyone here know what I'm trying to ask?

A
ArtB

Dear Jesus-is-God

Though not addressed directly to me, I'll take this post [2011/4/1 23:17] of yours as your answer to my inquiry as to what you believe that you must be obedient to. :)

Now I can help you.

All your quotes from Matthew through Luke are by Jesus who is addressing His fellow Jews only. And He does so strictly under the Mosaic Covenant. He is the Chief Rabbi of Israel. Jesus never preached the New Covenant to them, for to do so would have been a violation of the Mosaic Covenant. And Jesus would have been guilty of violating the Mosaic Covenant, and this would have disqualified Him from being the unblemished lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world upon Himself. Indeed, the leading Jews tried to accuse Jesus of violating the Mosaic Covenant, and Jesus pointed out that this charge against Him is untrue, that not even one jot and title of the Mosaic Law will pass away till all be fulfilled.

Jesus never taught the New Covenant during His ministry. Jesus never directly reached out to the gentiles with any plan for their salvation, to do so would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. He referred to gentiles as dogs who are unworthy of eating the food God set aside for His children Israel. At best, Jesus merely hinted at a coming New Covenant.

Though Jesus did not reach out to the gentiles, He did Heal gentiles who came to Jesus in faith for help with their request, such as healing. This is God's nature, to show mercy to those seek Mercy from Him, believing in Him that He can help them (faith). God always responds to people with real faith in HIM.

Jesus obediently kept the entire Mosaic Laws until His death on the cross. At the moment of Jesus death, Jesus having fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law, there occurred a fulfillment of several OT Prophecies from Zechariah, including that God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant:

Zec 11:1-14

Open your doors, O Lebanon,
That a fire may feed on your cedars. Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen,Because the glorious trees have been destroyed;Wail, O oaks of Bashan,For the impenetrable forest has come down. There is a sound of the shepherds' wail,For their glory is ruined;There is a sound of the young lions' roar,For the pride of the Jordan is ruined.

4. Thus says the LORD my God, "Pasture the flock doomed to slaughter.

"Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished, and each of those who sell them says, 'Blessed be the LORD, for I have become rich!' And their own shepherds have no pity on them. For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."

7 "So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10. "I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD."

There is only one bilateral Covenant God ever made with the peoples, The Mosaic Covenant. Moses read it to the peoples, 613 laws, the blessings for keeping these laws, and the curses for breaking this Covenant (i.e. Contract) written therein, and the people of the exodus all proclaimed 'This will we do', and the Covenant was sealed with the Sprinkling of blood that Moses sprinkled on them, sealing this contract between man and God.

But now, Zechariah predicts that God will void the Mosaic Covenant:

Zech 11:12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" S0 THEY WEIGHED OUT THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AS MY WAGES. Then the LORD said to me, "THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT MAGNIFICENT PRICE AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM" So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. NASU

As you can see, Jesus-is-God, The Mosaic Covenant has been annihilated by God.

Why?

Paul tells us why in no uncertain terms that the Mosaic Laws were 'useless' with regard to our salvation.

Heb 7:18-22

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU


Gal 3:15-29
Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

All Scriptures NASU

So, Jesus-is-GOD, what r u being obedient to?

(1) The 613 Mosaic Laws (works), by which no one will ever keep (except for Jesus who kept them on our behalf), but all will be guilty and condemned by these laws they profess and try to keep, but never succeeding, but always condemned by them. These actually cause sin to increase. Life is like riding a Bicycle or motorcycle, where you look is where you go. And the Mosaic Laws kept the peoples focused on sin.

Or are you obeying the Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ?

Are you keeping the Laws of the New Covenant?

So I ask you, what are the Laws of the New Covenant and how do they differ from the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant?


C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""Friends, what I wonder is though - if we are "as He was in this world", what do we do with our time? Our thoughts?

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

"as He is" not was.

This is what we do. Love one-another as He first loved us.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ ((is)) come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ ((is)) come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

The spirit of antichrist ((is)) come into the world.

The Spirit of Christ Is come also, He is in this world in the quickened flesh by His Spirit that ((is)) in our flesh temple, "the temple of the Holy Spirit" also the temple that holds the Spirit of Christ is Come in flesh of believers.

So; "as he is, so are we in this world." This is how our love is made Perfect, by He that is in us.

This takes into effect all that Jesus did and all His Apostles and also all that are His should and will do if we are in Him as He is in us.

Is He Come in you?

Here is our Lobour; Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Praise God: Phillip


W
White_Stone

Dear Jesus-is-God.

Isn't it possible, that if we didn't have so much "time spent on self" that we'd have less time to find ourselves struggling with sin? Don't we have a "choice" in how we spend our thought lives, our time, and what we'll do with our thoughts and time?

It is with sadness I tell you, I have been lurking in your thread from the beginning. I should have posted sooner.

I agree with all you have said.

I've said enough, back in the lurking mode.

white stone

S
sermonindex

Bless your eyes Sister White Stone, increasingly, as you hunger after the true Christ Life. Amen.


ArtB - My post that I believe you 'may' be replying to was 4/1 at 23:48 on page 6 and it was the list of New Testament verses on Christ's commandment of Love.

Through-out this thread, I've stressed repeatedly "NT commands" and never would I bring us back under the 613 commandments of the OT. I suppose if we truly tried to read each other's posts, these misunderstandings would be much less frequent - but that's how this thread has gone, for the most part because the tension between what GOD does in our lives After we are regenerated ans what we are to do is off --- in one direction or the other.

_________________________________________________________

On to the topic of this thread -

To draw beautiful word pictures and stray too far from quoting Scripture is far to esoteric for Him and is actually an "adding to His Word" - as He commanded through Paul, to not go beyond what is written, so that we won't prefer one man over another.

I feel led to give Webster's definition on this word "Esoteric" at this point, to shed some light, on why the Bible can be read and understood by children and also why GOD chose to use the Koine Greek to write His Word in the N.T.. I'm sure most already know, but the Koine Greek was basically the language of the people, or you could almost say, "the street language" ... so that it could be understood plainly, regardless of one's intelligence (which GOD is not impressed with - as He chooses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise) and another reason for the language of the people was, out of respect for the difference in the people's level of education.
Paul spoke plainly, though he was probably one of the brightest of all the disciples and the most educated, under Gamaliel. His fellow Jews knew who that was, yet Paul said that he considered all of his intelligence and learning as 'dung'.

From Websters - Esoteric -
1 - Designed for, and understood by, the specially initiated alone; not communicated, or not intelligible, to the general body of followers; private; interior; acroamatic; - said of discussions of technical topics and of the private and more recondite instructions and doctrines of philosophers. Opposed to exoteric.

2 - Marked by secrecy or privacy; private; select; confidential; as, an esoteric purpose; an esoteric meeting.

n1(Philos.) An esoteric doctrine or treatise; esoteric philosophy; esoterics.\t


This is not how Jesus and his Apostles wrote His WORDs.

Jesus said, unless you become as little children, you shall not enter the Kingdom. Matt 18:3-4

What did He mean by that? Why would He make "humbling ourselves and becoming as little children" a prerequisite to entering the Kingdom?


I'll leave that question and this post here.

({eta} when I hit enter to skip a line - it submitted an unfinished post)

A
ArtB

'Jesus-is-God' wrote:

"ArtB - My post that I believe you 'may' be replying to was 4/1 at 23:48 on page 6 and it was the list of New Testament verses on Christ's commandment of Love.

Through-out this thread, I've stressed repeatedly "NT commands" and never would I bring us back under the 613 commandments of the OT. I suppose if we truly tried to read each other's posts, these misunderstandings would be much less frequent - but that's how this thread has gone, for the most part because the tension between what GOD does in our lives After we are regenerated ans what we are to do is off --- in one direction or the other."

Alas, it is late for me, and my mind is too shot to answer this tonight.

Yes, those were Christ's statements indicating how such love ought to move them to actually keep the Laws of Moses. But Jesus is still addressing the Jews, and strictly under the Mosaic Covenant, and encouraging them to keep the Mosaic Laws.

There are only three laws of the New Covenant. Unlike the Mosaic Covenant which requires those under this Covenant TO KEEP the full extent of all those Laws in order to receive God's blessings of long life and great prosperity.

By these 3 Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, our Paschal Lamb, God KEEPS US!

Thus our salvation becomes truly a genuine gift from God to all who accept Jesus as their Savior whose blood washed away all our sins for all time.

This is as much as I can say tonight, my brain is not cooperating.

However, it is truly easy to be a Christian.

S
sermonindex

Now both our minds are shot Art. Ha - you've just confused the daylight out of me. I'll repost what you responded to and ask that you look at these again and see if they're "to the Jews to get them to keep the O.T. Law."
Hope we both feel better tomorrow. :) LORD Bless!

See if you see what we are to "keep" in these verses.
No cheating now - gotta read them all. :) Shalom!
_________________________________________________________

Mat 5:44, 45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mar 12:30, 31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luk 6:27-29 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Luk 6:31-33 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

~Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

~Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

~Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

~Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

~Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of Him.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you

1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works

Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Jas 2:8,9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

~1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:9-11 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

~1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn 3:16-19 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

~1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

~1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

~1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

~1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

~1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:20 ,21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:5,6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

C
Christinyou

Just a few more and we will have the whole Law. Is there life in keeping the whole law of God. I don't see life in any law, except the Law of faith in Jesus Christ which is of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23-28 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Where is life and Christ and the Grace through faith in all the Law. There is no life in keeping any law, only in Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law. Grace or Law, which do we choose? Faith in the Law or Faith in Christ, who is made for and in us righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and complete redemption.

I now choose to keep the Law of Love, which is so much better than keeping Law. Love now makes the Law a Heart doing and not a flesh doing as the Pharasies and blind, cleansing the outside, while the inside is filthy.

Matthew 23:24-39 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Who has set us free from this body of sin? Trying to please God by outward works of Keeping the Law in the flesh.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who's mind to we now have? 1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

I'm beginning to wonder why anyone is seeing "the Law" in this thread. It's beginning to puzzle me more and more.
I've just posted a partial list of verses on "love" for the second time and now getting another reply about "the law" again is something I suppose only praying in the Spirit will make sense of.
His WORD is written so clearly. The N.T. is written for a child to understand - so I suppose that's where the confusion is coming from. I see no other escape from whatever walls are built to understanding, than to depend on Him. I believe it's to prayer we must go, in Jesus' Name, in His Great Care for His Own Sheep. Amen, and Amen.

S
sermonindex


A Letter to us, from Corrie Ten Boom ~

"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.


Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. “Yes, the Lord will heal me,”, Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, “We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes – to stand and not faint.”

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy. “If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you; on their part evil is spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.” (I Peter 3:14) I found myself saying, “Hallelujah! Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!”

In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation”, but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, “Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?”

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

“When I was a little girl, ” I said, “I went to my father and said, “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ.” “Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?” “No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.” “That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need – just in time…”

My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing, ” In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.” Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

**First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

**Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

**We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

**In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

**Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him, for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!"

C
Christinyou

How are we going to be judged? By how much we keep the Law, by how much we love, by how much we give to the church, by how much, how much.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What is Pauls Gospel?

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

"revelation of the mystery"?

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Revelation of the mystery; Christ in you, which God has birthed His own Son by His incorruptable Seed and given us new birth as New Creatures in Christ. "Sons of God".

The commandments mean nothing unless Christ is in the believer for it is Him in us that is the only One that can keep them perfect and Please the Father. This is who we are in Christ, This is who the Father sees when He looks at each of Us, Christ in you The Hope of Glory. So I can!!!!!

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1Co 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Change Chrrity to Christ and this is why I so preach against the Law and churchianity, relegion and self works.

He that is perfect is come. He is in us, by Him only are we able to perfect the Love of God in us. It is Christ. He is the finish of all that God whats from His children. By The Christ in me, my spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, my soul has been saved by the Cross of Christ and is still being saved by renewing my mind to the Mind of Christ. This body of death will be saved and changed in the twinkling of an eye and we will have a new and glorious Body just like His Body.

I am not trying to put down the Law, it is Holy. I only see me keeping it by the Christ in me, as He comes forth as me in this world. No I am not Christ, but He must come forth in me as me or I have lost the Whole Reason for the Cross. Paul's Gospel; Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Not do's and don'ts but His righteousness in us adds all the Father wants us to have and do. It must be Christ first, then I can follow Him as He has given His life to give me life that will follow Him, out of LOVE for what He has, is and will do for God's children.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex


To Philip - Hello Philip, How are you?

I just wanted to share with you, in case you've missed it - that the post I left this morning for you, is still at the bottom of the page before this one.

That would be the last post on this page -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38199&forum=36&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0


Have a Blessed Evening with The LORD!

S
sermonindex


Mat 10:36-38 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


1Th 4:2-7 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: that no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.


2Ti 2:19-22 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.


Tit 2:1-8 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.


Tit 2:12-15 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Heb 12:14-16 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


1Jn 2:3-6 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

C
Christinyou

How do we keep all His commandments?

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

2 Corinthians 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Romans 8:28-33 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

I am not justified by what I do or don't do I am justified by the One that was delivered up for us all. It is God that justifieth. Jesus is our justification.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
629. apolutrosis
Search for G629 in KJVSL
apolutrwsiV apolutrosis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083; (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian

What must I do? Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

It is He that is in us that makes all the commandments work to please God.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Is it me keeping the commandments or Christ by the Power of God, by His Spirit that is in me, By His gift of the Holy Spirit that dwell in my temple, He is my all.

We do it? He does it in and through us? Which one will please the Father? God never intended to save me. He always intended to put another person in me, Jesus Christ. My rebirth will now get me to the Fathers House and makes me a son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Philip, I strongly recommend you read the verses I gave until you understand that we have a two way relationship with Him. As in how these two verses work hand in hand ...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


If you persist in canceling out Scripture with Scriptures in your own mind - you are literally cutting Christ apart as with a knife. He 'is' The Word of GOD and you cannot ignore the verses I listed that HE Wrote into His Word.

Either we eat the whole of His New Testament or we will be judged ... especially looking at that last verse in that list.
If you continue to leave off half the New Testament or any of us does, we will have serious problems down the road and that's the reason for this thread. Because these problems are already surfacing with Many who have cut His N.T. in half. Serious Problems. And problems that will only increase in these days, unless we look at the Whole counsel of His Words and not pick and choose which we like.

W
White_Stone

Dear Jesus-is-God,

Your posts are closely paralleling what anonymous777 is saying here:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38315&forum=35&start=10&13
(the last two posts)

Re: DARTH VADER'S CLONES and STEPFORD WIVES

Re: Biblical Principles Cannot Replace God's Perfect Will for You.

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You are right, it is so simple a child can do it. Man does not want to accept 'as a little child.' Man wants to insert his own will in the interpretation. It seems to all come down to PRIDE. I try to follow the Apostle Paul in saying, 'I glory in mine infirmities.' (paraphrased)

Praying your thread bares good fruit. I, personally, find it very worthwhile.

Love, white stone

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

I have received the revelation of Christ in me. Paul was the first. He is where I got the information from, but the revelation came from the Holy Spirit.

I have already been judged, that is what the Cross is for.
I have received much more than His words, I have received Him as a person whom God from the foundation of the world intended His children to have. As I have said before; God did not want to save me as a person, for that is impossible, He had to put another person in me when I was born again, that is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

If we say, the ole saying, "God helps only those who help themselves", well Jesus did not help himself or He would let the cup go and not taken all our sin into His own body; "Father take this cup", "not my will but yours".

God cannot help those that help themselves, they are self determined and not trusting in the Life they have been rebirthed in. I only do the will of my Father, that is what Jesus said, that is now my life, and even though I still have a soulish mind that still has the fleshly body pulls of my old life, they are by obedience to the will of God in Christ Jesus, being conformed to the image of Christ. I will not do anything of myself, God providing, this takes away my trying to prove my salvation by what I do. My salvation is by what He has done. That is my proof of my salvation, "Christ in you the hope of glory".

I have not attained perfection yet, but I press on for the upward calling in Christ Jesus, that is my salvation, Him and Him alone. I will always say, He is the only one that can set me free from this body of sin, I trust Him, Love Him because He first loved me and gave Himself for me. He is now in me, How can I trust in myself? I must trust in Him to do His work in me.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Philip wrote:

God cannot help those that help themselves, they are self determined and not trusting in the Life they have been rebirthed in. I only do the will of my Father, that is what Jesus said, that is now my life, and even though I still have a soulish mind that still has the fleshly body pulls of my old life, they are by obedience to the will of God in Christ Jesus, being conformed to the image of Christ. I will not do anything of myself, God providing, this takes away my trying to prove my salvation by what I do. My salvation is by what He has done. That is my proof of my salvation, "Christ in you the hope of glory".

I have not attained perfection yet, but I press on for the upward calling in Christ Jesus....

After this - saying that - ""I still have a soulish mind that still has the fleshly body pulls of my old life, they are by obedience to the will of God in Christ Jesus, being conformed to the image of Christ.""

Is your "will" or "choice" toward "obedience" involved here at all?

Or are you "doing as you please" UNTIL GOD brings you into His Image?

Obedience is an act of the will. To say otherwise is to contradict the whole of Scripture.

To say that GOD will ALWAYS "enable" us to fulfill His Will 'is' Correct teaching.
But to say that we are not free moral agents is not in the least bit Biblical.

Even an unsaved person would laugh at that. They know they "choose" to drink, try drugs, have sex, steal, etc ... and no one controlled them like a computerized zombie.


Philip, are you saying that to "obey His Word" is something you need not do?

That sounds like an absolutely rediculous question, but for however many pages that you've stated your mind on this - that is apparently how you feel.
That you have "NO CHOICE" of your own - either to obey certain commands found in the N.T. from Jesus and just wait for Him to control you.


How about when you're driving - Do you obey the "Speed Limit Signs" ?

An unsaved person can do that - just out of fear of paying a large fine - yet here we are - witnessing to the world on a Christian forum, that we cannot "obey the commands of our LORD"?

Do you realize what a bad witness this is to the world?

You said you "press on" - well define "pressing on".

Is "pressing on" an act of your will?

Do you understand what the will of your old man is?

Do you know how to resist the "pullings" of temptations when they come at you requiring a split second decision?
As in - To look or not to look?

My mind has been on the unsaved all day and I could only picture them hearing that they have NO FREEWILL coming from Christians.

That's ANARCHY Brother - all our laws of our land can now be broken with that teaching. We wouldn't HAVE Laws of the land if our founding fathers believed such nonsense - that a criminal "couldn't choose to do otherwise."

If a 17 year old boy read half the posts on this thread - he'd have every excuse to do whatever thought or temptation came into his mind as a result.

We - saved and unsaved, are ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR CHOICES --- both before GOD and man. That is a Fact!

S
sermonindex



Webster's 1913 Dictionary

De`ter´min`ism

n.
1
(Metaph.) The doctrine that the will is not free, but is inevitably and invincibly determined by motives, preceding events, and natural laws.

Its superior suitability to produce courage, as contrasted with scientific physical determinism, is obvious. - F. P. Cobbe.

WordNet Dictionary
Noun
1.
determinism - (philosophy) a philosophical theory holding that all events are inevitable

consequences of antecedent sufficient causes; often understood as denying the possibility of free will


Related Words Calvinism, aftertime, afteryears, by-and-by, course ahead, crystal ball, distant future, election, eventuality, expectation, fatalism, foresight, forward look, future, future tense, futurism, futurity, hereafter, immediate future, immediate prospect, imminence, near future, offing, outlook, posteriority, predestinarianism, predeterminism, prediction, probability, project, prophecy, prospect, the future, the morrow, the sweet by-and-by, time ahead, time just ahead, time to come, tomorrow

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/determinism

Notice the "Related words" for Determinism, above.


Freewill -
Adj. 1. freewill - done of your own accord; "a freewill offering"

Related Words
voluntary

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/freewill

Vol´un`ta`ry
a. 1. Proceeding from the will; produced in or by an act of choice.
That sin or guilt pertains exclusively to voluntary action is the true principle of orthodoxy.
- N. W. Taylor.
2. Unconstrained by the interference of another; unimpelled by the influence of another; not prompted or persuaded by another; done of his or its own accord; spontaneous; acting of one's self, or of itself; free.
Our voluntary service he requires.
- Milton.
She fell to lust a voluntary prey.
- Pope.
3. Done by design or intention; intentional; purposed; intended; not accidental; as, if a man kills another by lopping a tree, it is not voluntary manslaughter.
4. (Physiol.) Of or pertaining to the will; subject to, or regulated by, the will; as, the voluntary motions of an animal, such as the movements of the leg or arm (in distinction from involuntary motions, such as the movements of the heart); the voluntary muscle fibers, which are the agents in voluntary motion.
5. Endowed with the power of willing; as, man is a voluntary agent.
God did not work as a necessary, but a voluntary, agent, intending beforehand, and decreeing with himself, that which did outwardly proceed from him.
- Hooker.
6. (Law) Free; without compulsion; according to the will, consent, or agreement, of a party; without consideration; gratuitous; without valuable consideration.
7. (Eccl.) Of or pertaining to voluntaryism; as, a voluntary church, in distinction from an established or state church. Voluntary affidavit
(Law) an affidavit or oath made in an extrajudicial matter.
Voluntary conveyance
(Law) a conveyance without valuable consideration.
Voluntary escape
(Law) the escape of a prisoner by the express consent of the sheriff.
Voluntary jurisdiction
(Eng. Eccl. Law) See Contentious jurisdiction, under Contentious.
Voluntary waste
(Law) See Waste, n., 4.

n. 1. One who engages in any affair of his own free will; a volunteer.
2. (Mus.) A piece played by a musician, often extemporarily, according to his fancy; specifically, an organ solo played before, during, or after divine service.
3. (Eccl.) One who advocates voluntaryism.


WordNet Dictionary
Noun 1. voluntary - (military) a person who freely enlists for service
Synonyms: military volunteer, volunteer
2. voluntary - composition (often improvised) for a solo instrument (especially solo organ) and not a regular part of a service or performance

Adj. 1. voluntary - of your own free will or design;

not forced or compelled; "man is a voluntary agent"; "participation was voluntary"; "voluntary manslaughter"; "voluntary generosity in times of disaster"; "voluntary social workers"; "a voluntary confession"

Antonyms:
involuntary, nonvoluntary, unvoluntary - not subject to the control of the will; "involuntary manslaughter"; "involuntary servitude"; "an involuntary shudder"; "It (becoming a hero) was involuntary. They sank my boat"- John F.Kennedy

2. voluntary - controlled by individual volition; "voluntary motions"; "voluntary muscles"
Antonyms:
involuntary - controlled by the autonomic nervous system; without conscious control; "involuntary muscles"; "gave an involuntary start"


Legal Dictionary -
VOLUNTARY. Willingly; done with one's consent; negligently. Wolff, Sec. 5.
2. To render an act criminal or tortious it must be voluntary. If a man, therefore, kill another without a will on his part, while engaged in the performance of a lawful act, and having taken proper care to prevent it, he is not guilty of any crime. And if he commit an injury to the person or property of another, he is not liable for damages, unless the act has been voluntary or through negligence, as when a collision takes place between two ships without any fault in either. 2 Dobs. R. 83 3 Hagg. Adm. R. 320, 414.
3. When the crime or injury happens in the performance of an unlawful act, the party will be considered as having acted voluntarily.
4. A negligent escape permitted by an officer having the custody of a prisoner will be presumed as voluntary; under a declaration or count charging the escape to have been voluntary, the party will, therefore, be allowed to give a negligent escape in evidence. 1 Saund. 35, n. 1. So Will.

Related Words
Vorspiel, advised, aimed, aimed at, alternative, arbitrary, autonomous, avant-propos, breakthrough, calculated, "chosen", conative, concert overture, conscious, considered, contemplated, curtain raiser, deliberate, deliberated, descant, designed, discretional, discretionary, disjunctive, dramatic overture, elected, elective, envisaged, envisioned, exordium, foreword, free will, front matter, frontispiece, gratuitous, independent, innovation, intended, intentional, introduction, knowing, leap, meant, meditated, nonmandatory, of design, offered, operatic overture, optional, overture, postulate, preamble, preface, prefix, prefixture, preliminary, prelude, premeditated, premise, presupposition, proem, proffered, projected, prolegomena, prolegomenon, prolepsis, prologue, proposed, protasis, purposed, purposeful, purposive, self-acting, self-active, self-determined, self-determining, spontaneous, studied, teleological, unasked, unbesought, unbidden, uncalled-for, uncoerced, uncompelled, unconstrained, unforced, uninfluenced, uninvited, unpressured, unprompted, unrequested, unrequired, unsolicited, unsought, vamp, verse, volitional, volunteer, willful, willing, witting

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

"Choice"

n. 1. Act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; the determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election.
2. The power or opportunity of choosing; option.
Choice there is not, unless the thing which we take be so in our power that we might have refused it.
- Hooker.
3. Care in selecting; judgment or skill in distinguishing what is to be preferred, and in giving a preference; discrimination.
I imagine they [the apothegms of Cæsar] were collected with judgment and choice.
- Bacon.
4. A sufficient number to choose among.
5. The thing or person chosen; that which is approved and selected in preference to others; selection.
The common wealth is sick of their own choice.
- Shak.
6. The best part; that which is preferable.
The flower and choice
Of many provinces from bound to bound.
- Milton.
To make a choice of
to choose; to select; to separate and take in preference.

a. 1. Worthly of being chosen or preferred; select; superior; precious; valuable.
My choicest hours of life are lost.
- Swift.
2. Preserving or using with care, as valuable; frugal; - used with of; as, to be choice of time, or of money.
3. Selected with care, and due attention to preference; deliberately chosen.
Choice word measured phrase.

C
Christinyou

If your free will gave you salvation and to obey the Lord, praise God.

My free will would not. My will had to be governed by the will of God to choose to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, there by giving me salvation, it was His Grace that did this and His Faith that allowed me to believe and receive my born again expierence to receive The Incorruptable Seed of Christ in me the Hope of Glory.

My free will could never choose anything pertaining to the Kingdom of God. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I was blind, but now I see.

Now my will bears witness that this new birth has taken place, my will is now governed by the will of Christ in me. The old will sometimes chooses to not attain to the my new standing before God as a son, and I must run to John 1:9 and be cleansed of all unrighteousness. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. His Word is truth and this must also come from Him, even my running to confession is of Him. Without Him, Jesus Christ, I can do nothing, will or not to will, of my will I could never believe in Jesus Christ; Colossians 1:28-29 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

S
savannah

One woman says to Phillip,

"Do you realize what a bad witness this is to the world?"

She goes on and says...and says...and says...and says...

...to whosoever she will...

May none of us who are His be a bad witness to the world.
Moreover,may none of us who are His blaspheme His Word by our behavior or example.

The Word of God says,

Re: Women

...adorn yourselves in the hidden person of the heart, in the incorruptible thing of the meek and quiet spirit, which is, before God, of great price,for thus once also the holy women who did hope on God, were adorning themselves, being subject to their own husbands, just as Sarah was subject to Abraham, and called him, My lord: whose daughters ye are, by good works, while ye are not terrified by any fear. 1 Peter 3:4-6

The above applies to women who have flesh and blood husbands. The above doubly applies to women who boast that Christ is their husband.

In the same way exhort aged women toward reverent behavior,as becometh the fear of God; and not to be slanderers; and not to be addicted to much wine;and to be inculcators of good things,that they might train the young women to be modest,lovers of husbands, lovers of children,
discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, subject to their own husbands, so that the Word of God may not be blasphemed. Titus 2:3-5

Moreover,may none of us who are His blaspheme His Word by our behavior or example in the context of His Word here,or elsewhere.

So also, that women [appear] in a chaste fashion of dress; and that their adorning be with modesty and shamefacedness in sobriety; not with curls, or with gold, or with pearls, or with splendid robes; but with good works, as becometh women who profess reverence for God. Let a woman learn in silence, in all subjection. And I do not allow a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. 1 Tim. 2:9-12

Women who are vocal and generally noisy lack inner beauty.

If any be sensitive to the Holy Spirit,they do not need to meet face to face with an individual,but may discern the spirit of another, having never met them in person.

According to God in His Word quoted in this post,

The qualities distinguishing one of Sarah's daughters include a gentle and quiet disposition,shamefacedness,which Strong defines as, "bashfulness,that is,(towards men)",a learner,as opposed to a teacher,of God's Word,and one who trains the younger women by her example of the same.

These are some of the distinguishing qualities of a Biblical decorum for the spiritually mature woman.

Until a woman has these inner qualities, she is not properly dressed (i.e., in the soul) to be in Sarah's company.

Finally,

...let the wife see that she reverence her husband. Eph. 5:33

To all women...the question is,

Who is your mother and Who is your Husband?

Worship God.

S
sermonindex


We choose to obey His WORD as born-again Christians.

To insinuate, or even give a hint that obedience to His Word is wrong or 'works' is a dangerous position to hold.

We know that our LORD said, that "Without Me, you can do Nothing." and we give Him that Glory - as He Glorified the Father - in that "Though he were a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered and being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY Him." Heb 5:8&9

Heb 12:3&4 For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


True Christianity is not a cake-walk. We deal daily with the world, the flesh and the devil and must look to His Word and to His Spirit to lead, guide, protect and give us strength to defeat sin. If we walk in the Spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

I've never believed the sinless-perfection doctrine, but at the same time there's this other extreme that I've witnessed over the last 35 years that is just that - an extreme.

To say that Christians do not have the ability to "choose their actions" is pure spiritual suicide. That belief cannot be backed by Scripture and would be mocked by any who could use it against Christians. It is a bad witness to the world.

With all the Scriptures that I and others have posted on obedience and His commands - to persist in believing that we are not given a choice is to me just a mere excuse to blame GOD at one time or another, down the road and as I've stated, I am witnessing it even in these days.

With "iniquity abounding" He said "the love of most will grow cold" - so shouldn't we gird up the loins of our minds, allow His Word that we take in through intense study, wash us by that Word? And be "doers of the Word and not just hearers."

Iniquity will abound to such a degree, that men will not even have the time to think before a temptation will be placed before them. Will they go on believing that they have no "will or choice" and fall under these temptations?

To "look the other way" when a temptation is before us, is an act of the will. Even Job made this covenant with his eyes. That's called obedience which is birthed by Loving GOD and others as ourselves.

The whole of our Christian walks are based upon our Love for Him and His commandments that we should love others as ourselves. We choose daily 'who' we will love more than Him. Ourselves? No, we choose to love Him enough to obey Him and why He is both our Husband that we are to "submit" to in Eph 5 and our Father, to "obey" as His child.
To "trust and obey" is our love making itself tangible or real to Him. Faith and Love should both be seen as verbs - action words - if we read the Bible long enough - that is what is the plain reality of our Relationship with Him.

It should be as obvious as our own faces in the mirror.

S
sermonindex


Women can speak if they agree with savannah - we've learned over these years.


We forgive you savannah but we'll defend His WORD because He 'is' The WORD of GOD and He is our Husband!

S
savannah


We must receive reproofs with meekness. If we do that which deserves rebuke, and meet with those that are so just and kind as to give it us, we must be quiet under it, not quarrelling with the reprover, nor objecting to the reproof, nor fretting that we are touched in a sore place; but submitting to it, and laying our souls under the conviction of it. If reproofs be physic[al], it becomes us to be patient. "Let the righteous smite me, it shall be a kindness," and an excellent oil, healing to the wounds of sin, and making the face to shine; and let us never reckon that it breaks the head, if it do but help to break the heart. Meekness suffers the word of admonition, and takes it patiently and thankfully, not only from the hand of God that sends it, but from the hand of our friend that brings it. We must not be like the reprobate Sodomites, or that pert Hebrew, Exod. 2:14, that flew in the face of their reprovers, though really they were the best friends they had, with, "Who made thee a judge?"... though the reproof be not given with all the prudence in the world, yet meekness will teach us to accept it quietly, and to make the best use we can of it. Nay, if indeed we be altogether innocent of that for which we are reproved, yet the meekness of wisdom would teach us to apply the reproof to some other fault of which our own consciences convict us: we would not quarrell with a real intended kindness, though not done with ceremony, and though in some circumstances mistaken or misplaced.

Men are God's hand; so it is said, Psa. 17:14: "From men which are thy hand, O Lord," or rather tools in thy hand; which are "thy sword." We must abide by this principle, that whatever it is that crosses us, or is displeasing to us at any time, God has an overruling hand in it. David was governed by this principle when he bore Shimei's spiteful reproaches with such invincible patience: "So let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David." Let him alone, for the Lord hath bidden him. This consideration will not only silence our murmurings against God, the author, but all our quarrellings with men, the instruments of trouble and vexation. Men's reproaches are God's rebukes; and whoever he be who affronts me, I must see, and say, that therein my Father corrects me.

It is a very quieting truth—the Lord help us to mix faith with it—that every creature is that to us, and no more, that God makes it to be. Would we but more closely observe, and readily own the hand of God in that which disquiets and provokes us, surely, though we regarded not man, yet, if we had any fear of God before our eyes, that would reconcile us better to it, and suppress all intemperate and undue resentments. In murmuring at the stone, we reflect upon the hand that throws it, and lay ourselves under the woe pronounced against him that strives with his Maker. We know it is interpreted as a taking up arms against the king, if we take up arms against any that are commissioned by him.

What is said and done in haste, is likely to be matter for deliberate repentance. What we say or do unadvisedly when we are hot, we must unsay or undo again when we are cool, or do worse. Now who would wilfully do that which, sooner or later, he must repent of? You little think what a torrent of self-affliction you let in, when you let the reins loose to an immoderate ungoverned passion. You are angry at others and reproach them, and are ready to abhor them and to revenge yourselves upon them, and your corrupt nature takes a strange kind of pleasure in this. But do you know that all this will at last rebound upon yourselves, and return into your own bosom? Either here or in a worse place you must repent of all this; that is, you must turn all these passions upon yourselves; you must be angry at yourselves, and reproach yourselves, and call yourselves fools, and abhor yourselves, and smite upon your own breasts; nay, and if God give you grace, take a holy revenge upon yourselves, which is reckoned among the products of godly sorrow, 2 Cor. 7:11; and what can be more uneasy than all this?

Learn to pause. It is a good rule, as in our communion with God, so in our converse with men, "Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thy heart be hasty to utter any thing." The office of reason is to govern the passions; but then we must give time to act, and not suffer the tongue to overrun it.

Pray to God by his Spirit to work in you this excellent grace of meekness and quietness of spirit. It is a part of that comeliness which he puts upon the soul, and he must be sought unto for it. If any man lack this meekness of wisdom, let him ask it of God, who gives liberally, and does not upbraid us with our folly. When we begin at any time to be froward and unquiet, we must lift a prayer to Him who stills the noise of the sea, for that grace which establishes the heart.You are ready enough to complain of unquiet people about you, but you have more reason to complain of unquiet passions within you; the other are but thorns in the hedge, these are thorns in the flesh, against which, if you beseech the Lord, as Paul did, with faith and fervency and constancy, you shall receive grace sufficient.

Let wisdom and grace therefore do what time will do; that is, cool our heat, and take off the edge of our resentment.

That which I have been so intent upon in this discourse, is only to persuade you not to be your own tormentors, but to govern your own passions so that they may not be furies to yourselves. The ornament I have been recommending to you is confessedly excellent and lovely; will you put it on and wear it, that by this all men may know you are Christ's disciples? and you may be found among the sheep on the right hand, at the great day, when Christ's angels shall gather out of his kingdom every thing that offends. Every one will give meekness a good word; but in this, as in other instances, honesty is applauded, yet neglected.

Matt Henry

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"IF we do that which deserves rebuke..." ~ Matthew Henry


Also, we need 'discernment' to know the source and the motive behind the person who rebukes us - as the Apostles taught.

They could not by God's Divine Will 'submit' to those who tried to silence them, as they knew they were only speaking His Word.

It's good to know these things, as Christianity may become illegal one day and the Word has indications that it will be a counterfeit church that will be party to silencing His Word.

Missionaries of both genders will begin to be persecuted increasingly overseas first and then we'll see more subtle tactics coming from those we may even be fellowshipping with now, to try to silence those who Love Him.


Corrie Ten Boom is a very good example to us in these things.
Her article is on the previous page.

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sermonindex

Act 2:16-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


"Aggressive Christianity"

"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation.'" -Mark 16:15

"And I said, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which Iwill appear to you; delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."' -Acts 26:15-18

I was thinking, while I was reading these passages, what if we could erase from our minds all knowledge of the history of Christianity from the close of the period described in the book of Acts - and then looking at the book of Acts, sit down and try to calculate what was likely to happen in the world. We would most likely expect very different results - a radically changed world as the outcome of it all. A system which started with such power, under such promises and declarations on the part of its Author, and producing, as it did in its first century, such gigantic and monumentous results! We would have thought (if we knew nothing of what has intervened from then until now) that the whole world would have fallen long ago to the influence of that system, and would have been brought under the authority of its great Originator and Founder. I say from reading these Acts, and from observing the Spirit which moved the early disciples, that we should have anticipated ten thousand times greater results - and in my opinion, this anticipation would have been perfectly rational and just.

We Christians profess to have in the Gospel of Christ a mighty lever which, rightly and universally applied, would lift the entire burden of sin and misery from the shoulders (that is from the souls) of our fellow man - a total remedy for all the moral and spiritual woes of humanity. We all profess to believe this - Christians have professed to believe this for generations - and yet look at the world, look at so-called "Christian England and America." The great majority in these nations utterly ignore God, not even making a pretense of remembering Him even one day a week. And then look at the rest of the world. I have often become so depressed with this view of things that I have felt as if my heart would break. I don't know how other Christians feel, but I can truly say that "My eyes shed streams of water, because they do not keep Thy law." (Psalm 119:136) And because it seems to me that this dispensation1 compared with what God intended it to be, has been, and still is, as great a failure as the one that preceded it.2

Now I ask, how can this be? I do not for one moment believe that this is in accordance with the purpose of God. Some people have a very convenient way of hiding behind "God's purposes," and saying, "Oh! He will do His own will." I wish He did! They say, "You know, God's will is done after all." I wish it were! He says (in the Scriptures) it is not done, and over and over again laments the fact that it is not done. He wants it to be done... but it is NOT DONE! It is of no use to stand up and state theories and theologies that are in conflict with things as they really are. There has been far too much of this, and it has had a disastrous effect. We see the world is in this terrible condition... nearly 2,000 years have rolled by and here we are! How little has been done, comparatively. What little change has occurred in the habits, attitudes, and choices of the human race.

But some of you will say, "Well, but there has been a great deal done." Thank God for that! It would be sad if there were nothing done; but it looks like a drop in the ocean compared with what should have been done. Now I cannot accept any theory which so tarnishes the love and goodness of God in people's eyes, so as to make Him to blame for this lack of vitality and power in Christianity. And so far as my influence extends, I will not allow the responsibility and the blame for all of this to be rolled back upon God, Who so loved the world that He gave His only Son to suffering and death in order to redeem it. I do not believe it for a moment! I believe that the old arch enemy has succeeded in bringing about this state of things - in retarding the accomplishment of God's purposes and keeping the world largely under his own power and influence. And I believe he has succeeded in doing this, as he has always succeeded before - by deceiving God's own people. He has always done so. He has always conjured up a look - alike of God's real thing, and the closer he can get it to look like the original, the more successful he is.

He has succeeded in deceiving God's people:

First, as to the standard of their own religious life.

And secondly - he has succeeded in deceiving them as to their duties and obligations to the world.

He has succeeded first in deceiving them as to the standard of their own religious life. He has gotten the church, nearly as a whole, to receive what I call an "Oh, wretched man that I am" religion! He has gotten them to lower the standard which Jesus Christ Himself established in His Book - a standard not only to be aimed at, but to be attained - a standard of victory over sin, the world, the flesh, and the devil - real, living, reigning, triumphing Christianity! Satan knew the secret of the great success of those early disciples. It was their wholehearted devotion, their all-encompassing love for Christ, their utter renunciation of the world. It was their entire absorption in the salvation of their fellow man and the glory of their God. It was an enthusiastic religion that swallowed them up and made them willing to become wanderers and vagabonds - for His sake to dwell in dens and caves, to be torn in two, and to endure persecution in every form to the ends of the earth.

It was this degree of devotion which Satan saw he had no chance against. Such people as these he knew would ultimately conquer the world! People could not resist that kind of spirit, that amount of love and zeal, and if Christians had only gone on as they began long ago, then the glorious prophecy would have already been fulfilled - the kingdoms of this world would have already "become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ." (Rev. 11:15)

Lowering The Standard

Therefore the arch enemy said, "What must I do? I will be defeated after all. I will lose my supremacy as the god of this world. What can I do?" No use bringing in a gigantic system of error, which everyone will see to be error. Oh dear no! That has never been Satan's way. His plan has been to get a hold of a good man here and there who will, as the apostle says, creep in unaware and preach another doctrine, and who will "mislead, if possible, even the elect." (Matt.24:24)And he did it! He accomplished his design. He gradually lowered the standard of Christian life and character. And although in every revival in church history God has raised it again to some extent, we have never gotten back completely to the simplicity, purity, and devotion set before us in these Acts of the apostles. For every time God was raising the temperature in the church so that people were once again on fire with the Holy Spirit - in every age Satan has gotten someone to oppose and to show that this was too high a standard for human nature. It was altogether beyond us, and therefore Christians must sit down and just be content to be "Oh wretched man that I am" people, to the end of their days. He has gotten the Church into a condition that sometimes makes one positively ashamed to hear professing Christians talk. It is no wonder that thoughtful, intelligent men are being driven from such Christianity as this. It would have driven me off too, if I had not known the power of godliness. I believe this kind of religion has made more atheists than all the "atheist books" ever written.

Yes, Satan knew that he must get Christians down from that high pinnacle of wholehearted consecration to God. He knew that he had no chance till he tempted them down from that blessed vantage point. And so he began to spread those false doctrines, to counteract what John wrote in his epistles - for before he died, John saw what was coming and sounded the alarm down the ages - "Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (I John 3:7-8) Oh Lord revive that doctrine! Help us afresh to put up the standard!

Oh! The great evil is that dishonest-hearted people, because they feel it condemns them, lower the standard to their miserable experience. I said when I was young (and I have repeated it many times in my mature years) that even if it sent me to hell I would never pull the standard down. Oh, that God's people felt like that! There, in the Bible, the glorious standard is placed before us, the power is offered, the conditions laid down, and we can all attain it if we are willing. But even if we are not willing - for the sake of the children and for generations yet unborn, do not let us drag the standard down, trying to make it meet our weak and failing Christian experience. LET US KEEP IT UP! That is the way to get the world to look at it. Show the world a real, living, self-sacrificing, hard-working, toiling, triumphing Christianity, and the world will be influenced by it; but anything short of that, they will turn around and spit upon.

Duties And Obligations To The World .... continued ....

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3355

M
murrcolr

Jesus-is-GOD

To say that Christians do not have the ability to "choose their actions" is pure spiritual suicide. That belief cannot be backed by Scripture and would be mocked by any who could use it against Christians. It is a bad witness to the world.

With all the Scriptures that I and others have posted on obedience and His commands - to persist in believing that we are not given a choice is to me just a mere excuse to blame GOD at one time or another, down the road and as I've stated, I am witnessing it even in these days.

**************************************************


Galatians 5:17: “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”

“So that ye cannot do the things that ye would” does that sound like someone who is FREE TO OBEY.

Romans 7 19:

1. “What I would, that do I not.”
2. “But what I hate, that do I.”
3. “Evil is present with me.”
4. “I see another law in my members,
5. “Bringing me into captivity.

Is this FREE TO OBEY.

Forced into silence, or forced into speech! Afraid to declare one’s convictions! Kept from doing things that have
been whispered by the Spirit and taught by the Word! Captivity! Captivity! Captivity!!!

WHY WHY WHY…

6. “Sin dwelleth in me.”

Man is utterly unable to free himself of this inward plague that brings him to captivity by any strength of his own and this includes his WILL TO OBEY…

S
sermonindex


I'm sorry dear Brother, but there are far too many verses in our New Testaments (and since the Garden) that show that GOD created us to be able to choose to obey - to be able to choose Him and to choose to Love Him and others as ourselves.

A few Scriptures posted against the pages and pages worth of His commands do not cancel out or contradict those pages and pages.

Even the unsaved 'choose' and will be held accountable for what they have done when judgment day comes... As there is differing degrees of Hell and differing 'rewards' to the Saints in Eternity.

S
sermonindex

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

{Matthew 25}

Rom 2:5-11 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing

seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,

indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works


Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 22:12, 13 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,

to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

M
murrcolr

The Scriptures declare that fallen man is a captive, a slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage and corruption.

He is incapable of understanding, and much less of doing, the things of God.

There is what we might term “the freedom of slavery,” — a state in which the subject is free only to do the will of his master, which in this case is sin.

It was this to which Jesus referred when He said, “Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin,” John 8:34.

But my dear friend that is not Free - Choice thats bondage...

S
sermonindex

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

Hi Brother, in your first post, you mention Paul's words in Romans 7 - but left off that Rom 8 is one and the same conversation, where he leads us on to a choice of either walking in the Spirit to victory or in the flesh - Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: BUT if ye through the Spirit do 'mortify the deeds of the body', ye shall live." As in "reckon yourself dead unto sin" - which we can choose to do or not do. To reckon is that choice.

Prior to Rom 7, which you quoted from, Paul also explains that if there is "obedience" one would not be a slave to sin, as Paul needed to keep the church's doctrine straight, about sin that was creeping in, as he had to do with the church at Corinth and that it was a matter of the choice of man's beliefs there as well -

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

This quote from John 8 that you gave is where Jesus was speaking to the Jews and how they should have and could have known the truth that would set them free from the bondage of sin - from the Scriptures that they had all the while --

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

We see the choice to either put our faith and 'keep it' in Christ, given to both the Jews and Gentiles in Romans 11 -

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches,

take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,

IF thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

S
sermonindex


ArtB,

However, it is truly easy to be a Christian.

THE CROSS IS EASY?
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

ENDURING GRIEF AND SUFFERING WRONGFULLY IS EASY?
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

AFFLICTION IS EASY?
Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

DENYING YOURSELF IS EASY?
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

TRIBULATION IS EASY?
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

ENDURING IS EASY?
Heb 12:2 ...who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

RESISTING AGAINST BLOOD AND SIN IS EASY?
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

CHASTENING IS EASY?
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous:

You cheapen what Christ did by cavalierly saying it is easy.

Why is a crown of glory promised for those who overcome if it is so easy? What is it that we have to overcome if it is easy?

777

C
Christinyou

Who made us free from sin? my free will?

Christ has been made unto us righteousness. 1 Cor 1:30

My free will always chooses death, from Adams free will to the second Adam or Last Adam, Christ in the Spirit, all die and not one will choose God.

I through the Spirit is the only way I can defeat sin. Reckon is not a choice, it is to consider as already being done.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Quote:

Why is a crown of glory promised for those who overcome if it is so easy? What is it that we have to overcome if it is easy?

Self. Proverbs 3:5-6

S
sermonindex

ChristinYou,

These syllogisms will help you see where men are deceived. I have provided a Scripture and a WRONG and RIGHT Concept which is backed up by the Word. It is important for your will to be free, because it is the governing "organ" of the person. A spiritual Christian is one who is free to exercise his will. Passivity will bring you into demonic oppression.

Man's will is brought into bondage by DECEPTION.

SCRIPTURE: "Christ lives in me". Gal 2:20

WRONG CONCEPT: I do not live now at all.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I live by the faith of the Son of God.

PRINCIPLE: God does not require self-effacement for His life to be manifested. God does not require that your personality cease to exist.

SCRIPTURE: "I am crucifed with Christ". (Gal 2:20)

WRONG CONCEPT: I am dead and must practice death.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I died with Christ and am raised by his life to live.

PRINCIPLE: God's purpose for the Believer is not death but life.

SCRIPTURE: "God worketh in me". (Phil 2:13)

WRONG CONCEPT: I do not work, only surrender and God performs both the willing and the working.
RIGHT CONCEPT: Since I have His power in me, I can do all things through Christ.

PRINCIPLE: God never sets aside man's will. God never requires man to cease his activities before He can work.

SCRIPTURE: "those who obey Him (Holy Spirit)" (Acts 5:32)

WRONG CONCEPT: I must surrender my whole being to the invisible Spirit.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I will obey God the Father through the Spirit.

PRINCIPLE: The Holy Spirit will not think through my mind, nor feel through my emotions, nor decide through my will. The Holy Spirit guides by divine impressions upon man's spirit.

SCRIPTURE: "God's love...through the Holy Spirit" (Rom 5:5)

WRONG CONCEPT: I will not love. The Holy Spirit will give them God's love.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I will love them as the Holy Spirit has shown me God's love. (As you receive God's love you make a choice to love).

PRINCIPLE: To love is a choice. We choose to love as God has loved us.

SCRIPTURE: "In everything give thanks" (I Thess 5:18)

WRONG CONCEPT: I WILL accept all circumstances as the will of God.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I WILL SUBMIT myself to God in all circumstances.

PRINCIPLE: Submission to God and resistance to evil must work together. (James 4:7)

SCRIPTURE: "when I am weak, then I am strong" (2COR 12:10)

WRONG CONCEPT: I will to be weak so that I am strong.
RIGHT CONCEPT: The believer does not choose weakness, the weak believer shall have God's strength.

PRINCIPLE: God is sufficient in whatever state you may be.

SCRIPTURE: "Thy Will be done"

WRONG CONCEPT: God wills for me, I don't have to choose.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I choose to do His will.

PRINCIPLE: God never substitutes His will for man's.


GENERAL GUIDELINES REGARDING YOUR WILL

1. You do not submit to the Devil. He will grind your will down to passivity.

2. Do not pray through for experiences and feelings.

3. The Bible teaches us to obey objective truth. Obeying God is not some "impulse".

4. God will not move until your will functions.

5. Don't be paralyzed by fear that you will miss God. Step out boldy, God will lead.

6. Join yourself unto God with one heart, committing your will unto Him and desiring His will. He will give you a strong inner conviction and a burning desire to serve Him.

God wants to bring you to a place of wholeness, where you can WORK and you can WILL. He wants you to be in control of your Mind, your Will and your Emotions.

C
Christinyou

I thank you for all the work in trying to change my mind.

But, I don't believe that God would take His most prize possession and do something that has never been done before the foundation of the world until the Cross and put His Son in me and then depend on my will to make my salvation work.

I depend on the Holy Spirit to bring my old man sinful mind to the perfect and Holy mind of Christ. That is my labor. If my will has anything to do with it then it must be changed to the will of God through His Son. My problem is in my mind, that is where the Holy Spirit works to bring me to a position God intended me to be before the foundation of the world. In Christ. My problem is not with my will, it is with my mind which governs my will, which is against God. Now with a new nature in Christ and the Holy Spirit giving my mind to the Mind of Christ. I can do above and beyond all that I ever thought or did, by the Christ that is in me. I could never love God the way the Son loves Him until God put Him in me, now I am born again a new creature in Christ Jesus my Lord. Now my love affair is being completed by The Son who loved me first that by the Cross and His birth in me I can now begin to love Our Father as He did, that is where my love affair is, praise God He is finally giving me the desire of my heart, that is to love God as God can except it from me by the Son that is birthed in me. My greatest desire is to Love God our Father, His Son and my precious Holy Spirit and they know that I am more thankful than any man can know, Jesus died for me, me, it is still unfathomable how He could do that for me, me and me alone is in the Father by the Son. My will means nothing compared to the will of the Father. Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.

He who is now my Beloved, by His will my will is now being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ my Life, my Brother, my Savior and My God.

Free will? I don't think so, it cost God all He had in His blessed Son, who is now in me.

I will all my life, learn to love God more and more and praise Him above all else for what He has done for me. If you want to call this free will, so be it, but it was not my doing, it is His.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

I thank you for all the work in trying to change my mind.

Greetings Phillip,

The work to type this is no problem. Think nothing of it.

It is true that I addressed you but what I wrote is for everyone.

I'm not trying to change your mind as much as I am trying to show how some verses are misused by well meaning Christians. This spiritual life is not an easy life to comprehend and the enemy is subtle in that he likes to twist spiritual concepts and corrupt God's Word.

By the way, if you did change your mind, you would have to will for that to happen first, so your will governs your mind, not the other way around.

First, you have to think about changing your mind (with your mind), but the actual changing of it, is an action taken by your will.

I agree with you that our problem is with our mind and that is why it must be renewed by the Word of God. Then with our will we must walk out what our mind is understanding. So, our problem is with our will, also not just our mind. We can understand all knowledge but if we don't have love, we are clanging symbols. That means if we don't will to love (in action) who cares what our mind understands. Our mind does not make us act, it just understands what should be done. Our will carries out what should be done.

So, our will could be in bondage to passivity and we could understand with our mind everything, and yet our will could be paralyzed because we are waiting for GOD to take control of our will and do something. That is passivity. The Lord does not want us to be passive.

That Phillip, will never happen with our God. Waiting on God to Will for US, that is. He works with us most effectively, when we have total control of our mind our will and our emotions. And we consecrate all of them to the Lord and submit our faculties to Him in obedience.

Phillip, your mind does not govern your will, but rather the other way around. Your will is like the traffic cop. You will to think on certain things with your mind. You will to exhibit an emotion. You will to love.

You may think about loving someone or helping someone, or think about an emotion, but you have to will to actually love (in action)or help someone or give into an emotion. I hope we can agree on that.

We are not robots. God shows us the right paths and we have to will to walk in them. We comprehend with our mind what the Lord is saying to us. His Spirit in us illuminates and gives us understanding then we will to take an action.

Did the Lord give the rich young ruler a choice?

What did the rich young ruler will to do?

Others that He said to follow Him, they WILLED to follow Him. They didn't think to do it. Obviously, they thought about it first and then by their will, they acted upon the thought and followed Jesus.

We act upon our thoughts with our will. If our mind and will are submitted and consecrated to God, we will walk in His ways. This is a daily "thinking" on the Lord and a daily "willing" to do His revealed will to us.

Blessings,
777

S
sermonindex

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM GOD HATH GIVEN ~ TO THEM THAT 'OBEY' HIM.

Caps are merely for emphasis (no code), so as to ask the question - Does it take the will of man, or his choice to "Obey" Him? In the verse above, it states the He gives the Holy Ghost "to them that obey Him" - that's plain enough to see. Why would He give the Holy Ghost to the disobedient?
To Love Him is to Obey Him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

In this verse above, we see that He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that Obey Him.

These verses and those below, show that GOD takes our obedience very seriously and other verses already posted on this thread about disobedience show that we do have a "choice" whether to keep or obey His commands.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


2Th 3:14 And if any man OBEY NOT our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.


"To keep" (which is the same as "to obey") is an act of our will.

Why do we fear this word "will" or "choice" so much?


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my commandments.


Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will KEEP my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Joh 15:10 If ye KEEP my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and KEEP his commandments.


1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we KEEP his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Jud 1:21 KEEP yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which KEEP the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This isn't legalism, but "Love for GOD", which even that is voluntary, lest He wouldn't have written it into His Word so very often as a commandment.

Why do we so fear the word "Obey" or "Keep" so ? Do we fear it because it proves that we have a part in our salvation?
I do sincerely believe that must be the case and why many cannot except the words, "freewill, our will, our choice, what we choose" because if we admit that we have these "choices" to make in order to 'remain saved' - it would tear down the TULIP completely, from where the osas belief originated and not from His Word Alone, nor from the earliest of the Early Church Fathers.

Calvin even taught that it was GOD's will for Adam to fall. Most Calvinists don't believe that anymore - though there may still be a few who do. (Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism)

It was Calvin that made it "the law" to Kill "heretics", and many thousands were sentenced to death because of his declaration or ruling on this.


Was his teachings innerant? Or did he turn The Early Church's doctrine on it's head?


I posted the Earliest of the Early Church Fathers on pg 3 and they taught Freewill - so who was Calvin to teach the contrary almost 1500 years later and yet he's followed as if he were GOD Himself and his teachings rule over such a large community?

If we somehow found out that Art Katz was burning people at the stake, up there at the Ben Israel Community and had made it law to kill whomever didn't agree with Art --- would we keep his sermons on this website?

Is it OK to follow some murderers and not others?

What if we found out that Carter Conlon was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people up in Canada, where he lived?
Would we still listen to his preaching?

What's happened to us? Why have we left HIS Word Alone and at the furthest - looked only to the earliest of the ECF for our doctrines?

Why do we forget those ECF who were taught from the Apostles themselves and prefer the latter one that changed what these earliest of the ECF and The Word of GOD have written?

Many, many of these "heretics" were merely Anabaptists or who didn't believe in Infant Baptism --- But we're not supposed to bring this up? Hush the history of Calvin and his teachings and just make a big deal out of these men who commit much lesser crimes against His Word and people?

How many of us or those preachers/teachers who we read from or listen to would be tortured or brutally murdered if we all lived in Calvin's days???


THIS HISTORY BELOW IS FROM A CALVINIST WEBSITE.


Excerpts from Philip Schaff - The History of the Christian Church - Cpht 16


The deed of accusation, as lodged by Nicholas de la Fontaine, consisted of thirty-eight articles which were drawn up by Calvin (as he himself informs us), and were fortified by references to the books of Servetus, which were produced in evidence, especially the "Restitution of Christianity," both the manuscript copy, which Servetus had sent to Calvin in advance, and a printed copy.

The principal charges were, that be had published heretical opinions and blasphemies concerning the Trinity, the person of Christ, and infant baptism. He gave evasive or orthodox-sounding answers. He confessed to believe in the trinity of persons, but understood the word "person" in a different sense from that used by modern writers, and appealed to the first teachers of the Church and the disciples of the apostles.1174

He professed to believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God according to his divinity and humanity; that the flesh of Christ came from heaven and of the substance of God; but as to the matter it came from the Virgin Mary. He denied the view imputed to him that the soul was mortal.
He admitted that he had called infant baptism "a diabolical invention and infernal falsehood destructive of Christianity."
This was a dangerous admission;
for the Anabaptists were suspected of seditious and revolutionary opinions.

He was also charged with having, "in the person of M. Calvin, defamed the doctrines of the gospel and of the Church of Geneva." To this he replied that in what he had formerly written against Calvin, in his own defence, he had not intended to injure him, but to show him his errors and faults, which he was ready to prove by Scripture and good reasons before a full congregation.

On Thursday, the 17th of August, Calvin himself appeared before the Council as the real accuser, and again on the 21st of August.1176 He also conferred with his antagonist in writing. Servetus was not a match for Calvin either in learning or argument; but he showed great skill and some force.

In the mean time Servetus had, within the space of twenty-four hours, prepared a written defence, as directed by the Council, against the thirty-eight articles of Calvin. It was both apologetic and boldly aggressive, clear, keen, violent, and bitter. He contemptuously repelled Calvin’s interference in the trial, and charged him with presumption in framing articles of faith after the fashion of the doctors of the Sorbonne, without Scripture proof.1184 He affirmed that he either misunderstood him or craftily perverted his meaning. He quotes from Tertullian, Irenaeus, and pseudo-Clement in support of his views. He calls him a disciple of Simon Magus, a criminal accuser, and a homicide.1185 He ridiculed the idea that such a man should call himself an orthodox minister of the Church.

Calvin replied within two days in a document of twenty-three folio pages, which were signed by all the fourteen ministers of Geneva.1186 He meets the patristic quotations of Servetus with counter-quotations, with Scripture passages and solid arguments, and charges him in conclusion with the intention "to subvert all religion."1187

These three documents, which contained the essence of the doctrinal discussion, were presented to the Little Council on Tuesday the 5th of September.

On the 15th of September Servetus addressed a petition to the Council in which he attacked Calvin as his persecutor, complained of his miserable condition in prison and want of the necessary clothing, and demanded an advocate and the transfer of his trial to the Large Council of Two Hundred, where he had reason to expect a majority in his favor.1188 This course had probably been suggested to him (as Rilliet conjectures) by Perrin and Berthelier through the jailer, Claude de Genève, who was a member of the Libertine party.

On the same day the Little Council ordered an improvement of the prisoner’s wardrobe (which, however, was delayed by culpable neglect), and sent him the three documents, with permission to make a last reply to Calvin, but took no action on his appeal to the Large Council, having no disposition to renounce its own authority.

Servetus at once prepared a reply by way of explanatory annotations on the margin and between the lines of the memorial of Calvin and the ministers. These annotations are full of the coarsest abuse, and read like the production of a madman. He calls Calvin again and again a liar,1189 an impostor, a miserable wretch (nebulo pessimus), a hypocrite, a disciple of Simon Magus, etc.
Take these specimens: "Do you deny that you are a man-slayer? I will prove it by your acts. You dare not deny that you are Simon Magus. As for me, I am firm in so good a cause, and do not fear death … . You deal with sophistical arguments without Scripture … . You do not understand what you say. You howl like a blind man in the desert .... You lie, you lie, you lie, you ignorant calumniator .... Madness is in you when you persecute to death … . I wish that all your magic were still in the belly of your mother … . I wish I were free to make a catalogue of your errors. Whoever is not a Simon Magus is considered a Pelagian by Calvin. All, therefore, who have been in Christendom are damned by Calvin; even the apostles, their disciples, the ancient doctors of the Church and all the rest.
For no one ever entirely abolished free-will except that Simon Magus. Thou liest, thou liest, thou liest, thou liest, thou miserable wretch."

He concludes with the remark that, his doctrine was met merely by clamors, not by argument or any authority," and he subscribed his name as one who had Christ for his certain protector.1190

He sent these notes to the Council on the 18th of September. It was shown to Calvin, but he did not deem it expedient to make a reply. Silence in this case was better than speech.

The debate, therefore, between the two divines was closed, and the trial became an affair of Protestant Switzerland, which should act as a jury.

Calvin and Farel saw, in his refusal to recant, only the obstinacy of an incorrigible heretic and blasphemer. We must recognize in it the strength of his conviction. He forgave his enemies; he asked the pardon even of Calvin. Why should we not forgive him? He had a deeply religious nature. We must honor his enthusiastic devotion to the Scriptures and to the person of Christ. From the prayers and ejaculations inserted in his book, and from his dying cry for mercy, it is evident that he worshipped Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.1203

Farel raised him up and said: "Confess thy crime, and God will have mercy on your soul." Servetus replied:, I am not guilty; I have not merited death." Then he smote his breast, invoked God for pardon, confessed Christ as his Saviour, and besought God to pardon his accusers.1195

On the short journey to the place of execution, Farel again attempted to obtain a confession, but Servetus was silent. He showed the courage and consistency of a martyr in these last awful moments.

Farel invites Servetus to solicit the prayers of the people and to unite his prayers with theirs. Servetus obeys in silence. The executioner fastens him by iron chains to the stake amidst the fagots, puts a crown of leaves covered with sulphur on his head, and binds his book by his side. The sight of the flaming torch extorts from him a piercing shriek of "misericordias" in his native tongue. The spectators fall back with a shudder. The flames soon reach him and consume his mortal frame in the forty-fourth year of his fitful life.

In the last moment he is heard to pray, in smoke and agony, with a loud voice: "Jesus Christ, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy upon me!"1197

This was at once a confession of his faith and of his error. He could not be induced, says Farel, to confess that Christ was the eternal Son of God.

The tragedy ended when the clock of St. Peter’s struck twelve. The people quietly dispersed to their homes. Farel returned at once to Neuchâtel, even without calling on Calvin. The subject was too painful to be discussed.

The conscience and piety of that age approved of the execution, and left little room for the emotions of compassion. But two hundred years afterwards a distinguished scholar and minister of Geneva echoed the sentiments of his fellow-citizens when he said: "Would to God that we could extinguish this funeral pile with our tears."

§ 157. Calvin’s Defence of the Death Penalty for Heretics.

The public sentiment, Catholic and Protestant, as we have seen, approved of the traditional doctrine, that obstinate heretics should be made harmless by death, and continued unchanged down to the close of the seventeenth century.

Not only dissenters and personal enemies, but also, as Beza admits, some orthodox and pious people and friends of Calvin were dissatisfied with the severity of the punishment, and feared, not without reason, that it would justify and encourage the Romanists in their cruel persecution of Protestants in France and elsewhere.

Calvin’s plea for the right and duty of the Christian magistrate to punish heresy by death, stands or falls with his theocratic theory and the binding authority of the Mosaic code. His arguments are chiefly drawn from the Jewish laws against idolatry and blasphemy, and from the examples of the pious kings of Israel. But his arguments from the New Testament are failures. He agrees with Augustin in the interpretation of the parabolic words: "Constrain them to come in" (Luke 14:23).1209 But this can only refer to moral and not to physical force, and would imply a forcible salvation, not destruction. The same parable was afterwards abused by the French bishops to justify the abominable dragoonades of Louis XIV. against the Huguenots. Calvin quotes the passages on the duty of the civil magistrate to use the sword against evil-doers (Rom. 13:4); the expulsion of the profane traffickers from the temple (Matt. 21:12); the judgment on Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1 sqq.); the striking of Elymas with blindness (13:11); and the delivery of Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan (1 Tim. 1:20). He answers the objections from the parables of the tares and of the net (Matt. 13:30, 49), and from the wise counsel of Gamaliel (Acts 5:34). But he cannot get over those passages which contradict his theory, as Christ’s rebuke to John and James for wishing to call down fire from heaven (Luke 9:54), and to Peter for drawing the sword (Matt. 26:52), his declaration that his kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), and his whole spirit and aim, which is to save and not to destroy.

Calvin’s "Defence" did not altogether satisfy even some of his best friends. Zurkinden, the State Secretary of Bern, wrote him Feb. 10, 1554: "I wish the former part of your book, respecting the right which the magistrates may have to use the sword in coercing heretics, had not appeared in your name, but in that of your council, which might have been left to defend its own act. I do not see how you can find any favor with men of sedate mind in being the first formally to treat this subject, which is a hateful one to almost all."1211 Bullinger intimated his objections more mildly in a letter of March 26, 1554, in which he says: "I only fear that your book will not be so acceptable to many of the more simple- minded persons, who, nevertheless, are attached both to yourself and to the truth, by reason of its brevity and consequent obscurity, and the weightiness of the subject. And, indeed, your style appears somewhat perplexed, especially in this work." Calvin wrote in reply, April 29, 1554: "I am aware that I have been more concise than usual in this treatise. However, if I should appear to have faithfully and honestly defended the true doctrine, it will more than recompense me for my trouble. But though the candor and justice which are natural to you, as well as your love towards me, lead you to judge of me favorably, there are others who assail me harshly as a master in cruelty and atrocity, for attacking with my pen not only a dead man, but one who perished by my hands. Some, even not self-disposed towards me, wish that I had never entered on the subject of the punishment of heretics, and say that others in the like situation have held their tongues as the best way of avoiding hatred. It is well, however, that I have you to share my fault, if fault it be; for you it was who advised and persuaded me to it. Prepare yourself, therefore, for the combat."1212

§ 158. A Plea for Religious Liberty. Castellio and Beza.

Cf. § 126, p. 627, and especially Ferd. Buisson, Sébastien Castellion. Paris (Hachette et Cie), 1892. 2 vols. 8vo (I. 358–413; II. 1–28).

A month after Calvin’s defence of the death penalty of heretics, there appeared at Basel a pseudonymous book in defence of religious liberty, dedicated to Duke Christopher of Würtemberg.1213 It was edited and prefaced professedly by Martinus Bellius, whose real name has never been discovered with certainty. Perhaps it was Martin Borrhaus of Stuttgart (1499–1564), professor of Hebrew learning in the University of Basel, and known under the name of "Cellarius," in honor of his first protector, Simon Cellarius (not to be confounded with Michael Cellarius of Augsburg). He studied at Heidelberg and Wittenberg, appeared first among the Zwickau Prophets, and then in connection with Carlstadt (who ended his days likewise as a professor at Basel).1214 The book was misdated from Magdeburg, the stronghold of the orthodox Lutherans, in opposition to the tyranny of the Imperial Interim. A French edition appeared, nominally at Rouen, but was probably printed at Lyons, where Castellio had a brother in the printing business.1215

Calvin at once suspected the true authors, and wrote to Bullinger, March 28, 1554: "A book has just been clandestinely printed at Basel under false names, in which Castellio and Curio pretend to prove that heretics should not be repressed by the sword. Would that the pastors of that church at length, though late, aroused themselves to prevent the evil from spreading wider."1216 A few days afterwards Beza wrote to Bullinger about the same book, and gave it as his opinion that the feigned Magdeburg was a city on the Rhine [Basel], and that Castellio was the real author, who treated the most important articles of faith as useless or indifferent, and put the Bible on a par with the Ethics of Aristotle.1217

Castellio wrote, however, only a part of the book. He adopted the pseudonym of Basilius (i.e. Sebastian) Montfortius (i.e. Castellio).1218

The body of this work consists of a collection of testimonies in favor of religious toleration, extracted from the writings of Luther (his book, Von weltlicher Obrigkeit, 1523), Brenz (who maintain that heresy as long as it keeps in the intellectual sphere should be punished only by the Word of God), Erasmus, Sebastian Frank, several Church Fathers (Lactantius, Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustin, in his antiManichaean writings), Otto Brunsfeld (d. at Bern, 1534), Urbanus Rhegius (Lutheran theologian, d. 1541), Conrad Pellican (Hebrew professor at Zürich, d. 1556), Caspar Hedio, Christoph Hoffmann, Georg Kleinberg (a pseudonym) and even Calvin (in the first edition of his Institutes). This collection was probably made by Curio.

The epilogue is written by Castellio, and is the most important part of the book. He examines the different biblical and patristic passages quoted for and against intolerance. He argues against his opponents from the multiplicity of sects which disagree on the interpretation of Scripture, and concludes that, on their principles, they should all be exterminated except one. He justly charges St. Augustin with inconsistency in his treatment of the Donatists, for which, he says, he was punished by the invasion of the Arian Vandals. The lions turned against those who had unchained them. Persecution breeds Christian hypocrites in place of open heretics. It provokes counter-persecution, as was just then seen in England after the accession of Queen Mary, which caused the flight of English Protestants to Switzerland. In conclusion he gives an allegorical picture of a journey through the centuries showing the results of the two conflicting principles of force and liberty, of intolerance and charity, and leaves the reader to decide which of the two armies is the army of Jesus Christ.

Castellio anticipated Bayle and Voltaire, or rather the Baptists and Quakers. He was the champion of religious liberty in the sixteenth century. He claimed it in the name of the gospel and the Reformation. It was appropriate that this testimony should come from the Swiss city of Basel, the home of Erasmus.1219

But the leaders of the Swiss Reformation in Geneva and Zürich could see in this advocacy of religious freedom only a most dangerous heresy, which would open the door to all kinds of errors and throw the Church of Christ into inextricable confusion.

Theodore Beza, the faithful aid of Calvin, took up his pen against the anonymous sceptics of Basel, and defended the right and duty of the Christian magistrate to punish heresy. His work appeared in September, 1554; that is, five months after the book of Martinus Bellius. It was Beza’s first published theological treatise (he was then thirty-five years of age).1220

The book has a polemic and an apologetic part. In the former, Beza tries to refute the principle of toleration; in the latter, to defend the conduct of Geneva. He contends that the toleration of error is indifference to truth, and that it destroys all order and discipline in the Church. Even the enforced unity of the papacy is much better than anarchy. Heresy is much worse than murder, because it destroys the soul. The spiritual power has nothing to do with temporal punishments; but it is the right and duty of the civil government, which is God’s servant, to see to it that he receives his full honor in the community. Beza appeals to the laws of Moses and the acts of kings Asa and Josiah against blasphemers and false prophets. All Christian rulers have punished obstinate heretics. The oecumenical synods (from 325 to 787) were called and confirmed by emperors who punished the offenders. Whoever denies to the civil authority the right to restrain and punish pernicious errors against public worship undermines the authority of the Bible. He cites in confirmation passages from Luther, Melanchthon, Urbanus Rhegius, Brenz, Bucer, Capito, Bullinger, Musculus, and the Church of Geneva. He closes the argument as follows: "The duty of the civil authority in this matter is hedged about by these three regulations: (1) It must strictly confine itself to its own sphere, and not presume to define heresy; that belongs to the Church alone. (2) It must not pass judgment with regard to persons, advantages, and circumstances, but with pure regard to the honor of God.

(3) It must proceed after quiet, regular examination of the heresy and mature consideration of all the circumstances, and inflict such punishment as will best secure the honor due to the divine Majesty

and the peace and unity of the Church." [End Quotes]


ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm


IS CALVIN GOD, THAT WE CAN'T LOOK AT HIS HISTORY?


Will we see this "death to heretics" clarion-call again in the last days?

The Word of GOD indicates that this Will be the case, and religion will join hands with the Political System of the day Again, in order to do so - just as Calvin was intrenched in the government and affected the rulings of the government of his day.
Will "the new reformation" bring in this next holocost of believers? HIS Word says it will and I believe we're beginning to see it by the men who love the teachings of men more than The WORD of GOD.

C
Christinyou

Where does the free will doctrine come from?

Old;
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

New;
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Will of God?

Old;
Ezra 7:18 And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

New;
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Ro 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ro 15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.
1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Corinthians 8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.

S
sermonindex


I haven't read most of this thread (no offence intended - been busy) but the last couple of pages. The following verses have always fascinated me, since I listened to Iain Murray's sermon called Prayer and the Future, where he majored on Isa 45:11, after reading the whole chapter. He captures something about RELATIONSHIP with God, as He desires (wills) it, and as we should benefit if we obey His declaration 'Command ye me'. I know this may seem to be off the track of 'free' will, but it has a lot to do with the renewing of our minds, and God's willingness to let us set the pace of our 'willing' walk with Him. (Or, our walking in agreement with His declaration that we are not as like Him as we could be if we invite Him to work in us.)

(I hope that doesn't sound too complicated, but I'm aware it's more than possible, and very tempting, to be complacent about these things. Here, God urges us to be pro-active.)

Isaiah 45
1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.


9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

{direct: or, make straight}


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3576


Now, please don't think I've posted these verses to support more of God's sovereignty and less of free will, or more of man's sovereignty and less of God's free will, because I didn't. I believe no-one has a 'free' will, until they've heard the gospel. But, God has made it that we can be aware of our sin, such that we seek to be rid of it, and by that mechanism, we can deliberately seek Him, and change our behaviour to a certain extent. But only that, is not salvation. And, there are people who come to the cross for salvation (and receive it) but find themselves unwilling to walk the way of the cross IN PRINCIPLE, and no matter how Jesus Christ woos them to follow, they resist. So, I see that free will for a Christian, or a non-Christian, is a continuum along a timeline IN RELATIONSHIP WITH the Father, (instinctively seeking to know and please Him), rather than a possession to acquire for use at personal leisure for other things (however religiously related).


Mostly, we don't see just how much we need the desires of our hearts brought into line with God's, and this leaves us with the impression (as does doctrine which majors on feeling 'led', or 'anointed' (though these have their place)) that if God hasn't borne in upon us in a certain way, then our time is ours to please ourselves. In the past, major emphasis was put upon duty, and it's only after duty has become unavoidable that we find with amazement, that such obedience has worked character in us, which could have been formed no other way.


Jesus-is-GOD, I hope I haven't thrown your thread off track!

M
mguldner

I have heard this explained simply as Salvation is like a coin, one side is free will one side is predestination but no matter how you flip the coin you still have Salvation.

I believe there is a fine balance between the two and will say that I sit on the fence happily when it comes to this issue because really we can't know until we get there and God is like yeah you guys all were wrong, GOTCHA. But I think that is the beauty of our God He is a wonderous mystery and even in Heaven though we will have a clear picture of Him in His Glory we will be learning of and from Him for all Eternity.

So in reality, is this debate profitable? It sure can be if its leading you all deeper into the things of Christ Jesus and isn't driving a wedge of disunity among the brethen, Remember we are a operate and work as if we are the lowest of the low despite our bible knowledge.

Phil 2:1-3
"1Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself."

S
sermonindex

Hi AiG. Please feel free to post here. You've taken nothing away from the conversation.

I have held my beliefs for all of my saved life, but have tried very hard to always (past tense) stay open minded on this very important issue, even regarding the Church that I'm still a member of and no plans to do otherwise.

I believe that you know my stand on "predestination" but I feel to maybe post it one more time.

I by no means believe that GOD formed any man for the purpose to send them to Hell. That would contradict all else ever written about Him - for one - "GOD 'IS' LOVE".


I don't believe He always puts things in plain sight for us because He does want us to 'seek Him' and that sometimes take 'digging' into His Mind by His Word and Prayer.

I believe "the elect are those whom He 'foreknew' would love Him of their own accord" - just as a woman loves a man or a child their father --- not by force, but willingly.

These Scriptures are what I see are just the hint of why I believe so -

In Romans 9-11 Paul is discussing the "Jews" -

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which He FOREKNEW.

And these two verses regard both Jews and Gentiles -

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rom 8:29 For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


His Omniscience is the whole of His Foreknowledge.

With the Jews - He Knew how Abraham would respond to His invitation.

I believe we are all "the world", are "invited" and it is backed by multiple Scriptures.

He foreknew who would accept this invitation and come in, as He presents in one of His parables.

Once we have "come" I define His "sovereignty" as that of a man's protectiveness over his Bride or his Children and in this case with our GOD, it's both.
He protects, causes all things to work together for Good and so forth.
He knows who will come to Him future tense as well. From the foundations of the world, He's known. Yet, the "Invitation to come" has been open to all - even by His creation (Rom 1).

He created man to Love them and to have that Relationship that you've mentioned - Amen.

This belief does not take away any of His Majesty in the slightest. His commands to "husbands" and "fathers" is what He 'is' Himself to us. He fulfills any and all commands given to us and is not the type Father to say - "Do as I say - not what I do."

It became obvious to me that we can leave Him - just as part of Israel did in the O.T. and as the verses followings Romans 11:2 (partially quoted above) read - it goes on to say
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

GOD elected "grace". How we read His Word has made all the difference in the world with our soteriology. The Pharisees couldn't understand "grace" - they couldn't come to Him "by grace alone" but the sinful woman who fell at His feet, Knew there was no other way for her to come near Him - no rightousness of her own - "a wretch like me".


I'm glad you posted AtG. I'm not 'perky' today but am happy to begin this conversation with someone who may understand my view and reason for starting a thread (and how it's something I wouldn't do unless I felt truly burdened).

Thank you!


{eta: presently downloading your link. Pokey dial-up.}

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sermonindex

Thanks for your warm welcome, JiG,

I've read the opening post now, and see better what was on your mind. I hope you enjoy Iain Murray's offering when you finally listen. In the meantime, I can't remember of you were online when this thread was posted by philologos, hot on the heels of the conference in Greenock, Scotland, where many of us met for the first time.

He called it (with respect to the Church's woes), Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs... ? Needless to say, various opinions were aired. In general though, it is a good read which will enable those who take up the challenge, to work out whether what they've been taught is actually scriptural, or, at least, supportable from scripture. Again, the matter of relationship with God and how He expects that to work, is central to understanding Ron Bailey's direction.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=26547&forum=40&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

C
Christinyou

www.gotquestions.org

So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.


Man is not a “law unto himself.” Man is a creature in the Creator’s universe, and as such is subject to the will of the Creator. To suggest otherwise is to elevate man beyond his station and to bring God down to the level of the creature. Those who advocate libertarian free will may not come out and say this, but logically speaking, this is the conclusion that must be drawn. Consider a popular evangelistic slogan found in Christian gospel tracts: “God casts his vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you, but you have the deciding vote.” Is this how it works in salvation? Is God just one side of a cosmic struggle with Satan for the souls of men, who must resort to ”campaign tactics” to sway voters to heaven? This view of God is an emasculated God who is desperately hoping mankind utilizes his free will to choose Him. Frankly, but this is a somewhat pathetic view of God. If God wills to save someone, that person will be saved because God accomplishes all His purposes.

Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices. The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty.

Now by embracing this view, we must avoid two errors. The first is to posit what is called “middle knowledge.” The doctrine of middle knowledge teaches that God created a world out of the infinite number of worlds He had available to Him to create, and God chose that particular world in which free creatures made the very decisions that accomplished His will. The second error to avoid is to think that God is somehow a cosmic manipulator setting up situations so that His creatures freely make the choices that accomplish His will.

There are two keys to understanding human will and how it relates to God’s sovereignty. The first is the fall. Prior to the fall, man could be said to have had a “free” will in that he was free to obey God or disobey God. After the fall, man’s will was corrupted by sin to the point where he fully lost the ability to willingly obey God. This doesn’t mean that man can’t outwardly obey God. Rather, man cannot perform any spiritual good that is acceptable to God or has any salvific merit. The Bible describes man’s will as “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1) or as “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17). These phrases describe man as both unable and unwilling to submit to God’s sovereign authority; therefore, when man makes choices according to his desires, we must remember that man’s desires are depraved and corrupted and wholly rebellious toward God.

The second key in harmonizing man’s “free” will with God’s sovereignty is how God accomplishes His desires. When God ordains all things that come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Ephesians 1:11), He not only ordains the ends, but the means as well. God ordains that certain things will happen and He also ordains how they will happen. Human choices are one of the means by which God accomplishes His will. For proof of this point, look no further than the exodus. God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s glory in the deliverance of Israel would be manifest through him (Exodus 4:21). However, as the narrative continues, we see that Pharaoh hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). God’s will and man’s will converge.

In conclusion, we must try to understand the effort to import libertarian free will into the Scriptures. The reasoning is usually to preserve human autonomy because it is seen as the key to moral responsibility. This is also done to preserve God’s justice. God cannot be seen as just if He would condemn those who cannot choose against their depraved wills. Yet in these attempts to preserve God’s justice and human responsibility, damage is done to the Scriptures. The Bible emphatically affirms human responsibility for sin and God’s justice, but it also clearly rejects libertarian free will. Scripture clearly affirms that 1) God is sovereign over all affairs, including the affairs of man; and 2) man is responsible for his rebellion against a holy God. The fact that we cannot completely harmonize these two biblical truths should not cause us to reject either one. Things seem impossible to us often simply because we do not have the mind of God. It is true that we can’t expect to understand the mind of God perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to believe His Word, to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.

In Christ: Phillip

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I prepared this below - quick post - offline earlier today and before seeing your post Philip.

I read this thing you've posted and can see me taking this down to Central Park (New York) and reading it to the unsaved folks there that we'd like to witness to. I'm sure it would go over really well.


Been busy with Dad all day AtG, but did listen to your linked message and remember that thread and had posted to it on the last page.

I just pulled a few Scriptures together and put just a few comments with most of them....

"Whosoever Will, Come"


Mat 11:28 COME unto me, ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[Does He mean "All"?]


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[Does He mean "Any"?]


Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
[Except for those that He's damned from the foundation of the world?]


Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[He gave the rich man a 'choice'. Did He give a man a choice that was predestined for Hell so that he Couldn't choose to follow? Does GOD work that way? To invite those who cannot be saved?]


Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
["Whosoever will" John 3:16]


Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
[No one forced the prodigal to return - he just came to himself when all that he had dried up.]


Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[How could He condemn them if He chose them for Hell against their will?]


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[Could they not 'come' to Him because they were 'predestined' by His Own Will to NOT Come and so weren't given by Him the 'will' to come?]


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance
[Is He lying here?]


1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
[Is He lying again?]


Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that heareth say, COME. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

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Again, please forgive the caps used for emphasis. Having a time trying to get used to posting without codes. I'll survive it, if you can bear the caps.

The LORD has laid this on my heart. He may have not laid this on other's hearts, so this is not a blanket indictment.

Thanks!!


Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with SIMPLICITY; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in SIMPLICITY and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.


2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.


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Hi JiG, I'm going to look at John 3:19 from a slight different set of scriptures.

God has been, is, and will be - blameless for the choices men make, which lead to their final destinations spiritually and eternally, because they make them ALL in the light of His countenance, and deep down, they know that.

For instance:
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Jesus said He came for people who are already at a disadvantage:
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord... 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

[Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.]


The law of Moses said:
Leviticus 19:34\t[But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

Jesus said:
Luke 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor [thy] rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.


Jesus showed unconditional compassion: (See also Mark 3.)
Matthew 12:15 '... and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them ALL;


Paul said:
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest IN them; FOR GOD HATH SHEWED [it] UNTO THEM.


A wise man said there was no return from adultery:
Proverbs 7:26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong [men] have been slain by her. 27 Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

But John records:
John 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I [Jesus} tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he [Jesus] unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU [wilt]. 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.


Peter said:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance... 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, BE DILIGENT that YE MAY be found OF HIM in peace, without spot, AND BLAMELESS. 15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation;


To Jesus-is-GOD,

It seems to me that there are some people who don't mourn over their own sin. God sees this, and tries to wake them up; as Paul quoted in the context of reproving darkness:

Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, (Ephesians 5:14)

EVERYONE wakes up. There is NO-ONE that doesn't know something about God, according to many more verses than I quoted above.

Being IN darkness has never, on its own, been 'the condemnation', for we read: For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee,' (Isaiah 60:2), and even in Genesis 1, when darkness covered everything before God commanded the light to shine, after the presence of light came, it did not prevent our first father from choosing to sin.

Matthew reminds us of this:
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. Matthew 4:16

And John:
And this is the condemnation: that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when [thine eye] is evil, thy body also [is] full of darkness. 35 Take heed therefore that the light which is IN thee be not darkness.


Carter Conlon reckons that the greatest darkness a person can have IN them, is religious darkness.

But IF WE walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin. 1 John 1:7

Romans 2:1 Therefore THOU art inexcusable, O man, WHOSOEVER THOU ART that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But WE are sure that the judgment of God is ACCORDING TO TRUTH against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not KNOWING that the GOODNESS of God LEADETH THEE to repentance?

EDIT: I wasn't going to post this when I found it earlier, but it follows Romans 2 well, in that it shows unrepentance is also possible - even to a 'good' king, who had been 'perfect' in his heart towards the Lord.

2 Chronicles 16
9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. 10 Then Asa was wroth with the seer, and put him in a prison house; for [he was] in a rage with him because of this [thing]. And Asa oppressed [some] of the people the same time. 11 And, behold, the acts of Asa, first and last, lo, they [are] written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel. 12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease [was] exceeding [great]: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians. 13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign. 14 And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds [of spices] prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him.

{oppressed: Heb. crushed}

It takes a lot of spiced oils to hide the smell of death. Jesus Christ was wrapped in them for us, in His death for the sin of the whole world.

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The enemy does not want us to have a free-will. He would like to control, coerce and force his will upon ours. This is exactly what God does not do.

...God created man with the ABILITY to make decisions
...God gave man FREEDOM OF CHOICE

Man's will is his real self
...The choices of man reveal the character of man

Man's will is the essence of what he is. Choices are made that determine his daily life and his eternal destiny. The Creator gave man a free volition and never moves to force, coerce or control.

ONCE AGAIN: YOUR WILL DETERMINES YOUR DAILY LIFE AND YOUR ETERNAL DESTINY. GOD HAS MADE A WAY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND WE MUST WALK (exercise our will) IN THIS WAY by FAITH.

Man's will is that which stands between good and evil, that part of man when joined to God's will brings a union that brings a harmony between creature and Creator and releases the power of God in full salvation.

A man can say "no" to God and God will always respect his choice.

"...Not my will, but thine be done. Luke 22:42

One chooses to make the will of God his own will and pleasure. You decide to submit to His will.

The will of God becomes the goal of living rather than SELF.

REPENTANCE is turning from SELF-LIFE, from YOUR WILL to HIS WILL.

The spiritual life is more than emotions and intellect.
...God aims at the salvation of our will.

Spiritual union comes when man's will is joined to God's.

Out of this union comes OBEDIENCE.

DISOBEDIENCE means to follow one's own will.

One must cease from his own works (WILL).

Out of this union comes ONE HEART.
...Harmony between man's will and God's.

Failure to become ONE HEART with God brings failure such as Lot's wife and Balaam.

Principle: Make no provision for self:
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

We live unto God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.



Who made us free from sin? my free will?

Christ has been made unto us righteousness. 1 Cor 1:30

My free will always chooses death, from Adams free will to the second Adam or Last Adam, Christ in the Spirit, all die and not one will choose God.

I through the Spirit is the only way I can defeat sin. Reckon is not a choice, it is to consider as already being done.

Yes, Phillip, no one is saying that our freewill or freedom of choice has made us free from sin. Our sin has been pardoned and this is a provision of the Lord Jesus.

We are never "free" from sin. We are free to NOT sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You say that your "freewill always chooses death" and I don't know quite what you mean. Can you explain.

We should be choosing LIFE now. We should be "living unto God".

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Hi a777,

We are never "free" from sin.
But we ARE 'free' to NOT sin, through the assistance of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11 - 13), when we CHOOSE to walk in the Spirit SO THAT WE WILL NOT FULFIL the lusts of the flesh (sin), (Galatians 5:16).

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Thank you. Yes, we are free to NOT sin. Correction made.

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Amen. :)

A
ArtB

Yes, I am better today. Thank you for your kindness.

Mat 5:44, 45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.

You cannot divorce this verse from the one just before it.
Mt 5:43-48

" You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Jews justified hating their enemies by this verse in the OT.

Dt 23:2-6 " No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the LORD, because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. Nevertheless, the LORD your God was not willing to listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the LORD your God loves you. You shall never seek their peace or their prosperity all your days.

Thus Jesus is tightening the requirements of the Mosaic Covenant as compared to the common practice of using another scripture to justify their hatred for their perceived enemies. To love the Romans and other gentile enemies, or even their relatives - the Samaritans, was anathema to the Jews of Jesus day.

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And Jesus tightened the meaning of who is ones neighbor in the parable of ‘The Good Samaritan'.

Mt 22:34-40:34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

And this becomes the 1st of the three commandments of the New Covenant that we have in Jesus, The Royal Law of Love. In verse 28, Jesus highlights this LAW: “This is the great and foremost commandment.”

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Even Buddha had a realization of these important truths from Matt 22 and 24: “Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.”

And the importance of this ‘Royal law of Love’ is attested to in all the NT scriptures you wrote from Mark, Luke, and John that you have quoted, and all the other NT Scriptures you quoted. It’s even in your pen name on this forum.
Perhaps, (Jesus-is-Love) you can provide the other two Laws of the New Covenant, through whom God transforms us to be the people that He desires us to be. In the OT salvation came from keeping of all 613 Mosaic Laws, which was impossible for humans to keep. In the NT, by the Laws of NT, God keeps us and grants us eternal salvation.

It is all His work in us, and not our work, that no human may boast. And all we Christians will continue to sin as long as we live. But we can take comfort in 1 John 1 1-10, and that Jesus has taken away all our sins, past, present, and future, through His shed blood on the cross, the ultimate perfect covering for all our sins. All He ask of us is to believe the good news and fellowship with Him daily through the indwelling Holy spirit. Thus salvation is indeed a true gift from God to us. And it can not ever be earned by our efforts. God works in us to transform our very nature, so that we naturally do the good he created us to do will be natural for us to do, and it is ours to actuate these wonderful transformations He is making in us. God can not fail to do what He says He will do in us.

C
Christinyou

Amen Art, this is exactly what scripture says;

The fulfillment of the Word of God, not by men, but by the Christ that is in us.

Colossians 1:18-29 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

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ArtB

Reply to J-I-G

"A Letter to us, from Corrie Ten Boom ~"

Thanks for sharing. I read her autobiography.

Yes there has been innumerable tribulations against Christian Communities as well as those of non-Christian peoples. Come what may, I will trust in Jesus and the gospel. I truly hope it would not be extended torture, but if some one wants to cut my head off in one swift blow, they are welcome to it.

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But Art and Philip, you have both again thrown away all the verses posted on this thread alone that demand an 'action' on our part. Those commanding that we "keep His Words and keep His commandments" - this is what frightens me about your soteriology. You see nothing of the definition of "obedience".

I almost thought Philip did - but now again, it's back to sounding as if "we do nothing" and we cannot choose to do anything. Back to the robots again and very unsettling.
We KNOW that Jesus said that without me you can do nothing - but that will never cancel out our free moral agency.
Even an unsaved human can and does choose to live a moral life. It surely doesn't pay the price for his salvation - but his Hell may be a bit lighter than say a Stalin's is.
Jesus states clearly, even in The Revelation - that He is giving the Church choices to obey.

Art, from the beginning and until the day we die - the commandments to LOVE remain just that - from Deut to Rev - they are commandments - Yes, "the" commandments that fulfill all the law and the prophets, yet - it's still our choice to either go that route with even our enemies or not.

GOD's Word calls for an act of our wills 'for' obedience to His Word and His Spirit of Truth.

Thank you AtG. Your post is excellent and I surely am edified by what you & 777 have contributed.

I truly cannot understand the controversy over this topic.
Every page I open in my N.T. and read - such as - in Matthew chpts 5 & 6 alone, I see Jesus give the longest list of commands and just to KNOW those two chpts by heart and follow them, is a challenge in itself.
The More Scripture we know - the more of His N.T. that we memorize - the more we see just how much we've neglected of the words of our "Master". I've already seen on this thread that most have thrown away Matthew 25, nonetheless all the numerous other Scriptures posted on all of these pages.

I never thought this thread was go on this long.

Savannah rebuked me for answering someone on this thread - but what he doesn't realize is that I started this thread and Never thought that I would be having to disagree with "Brothers" on us 'choosing' to obey GOD. I never thought for a moment that this thread would raise such a controversy when I started it. Never thought it would go this far. But I did post early in the thread that I was just "posting my heart" the things that were burdening me - but every day that I'd come on --- here was someone arguing God's Word against our ability to "choose ye this day".
How could I keep silent - when that was the whole thing that began this burden.
I started this thread for that very reason. I saw people struggling with their walks with Him BECAUSE they were taught that "it's ALL up to God" and "there's NOTHING you can do to draw nigh unto Him".

But I never thought I'd be having to "debate" men on this issue and especially not for this many pages and truth be told, Philip can keep this thread going as long as he continues - I'm just appreciative that at least three others see the Other Half of His Word that involves our involvement with our Master and Thank them for their help - as this has had a confounding-depressive affect.
Bless yas.

S
sermonindex


To ArtB,

In O J Smith's sermon 'The Spirit-filled Life', he distinguishes people into two categories with regard to how they name themselves in respect to sin, and what they do to become right with God in each case.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6612&commentView=itemComments


My comments are prompted by your line:

Jesus has taken away all our sins, past, present, and future
Then you said...
the ultimate perfect covering for all our sins.
Please may I challenge you to find one single place in the New Testament with regard to the NEW Covenant, which justifies this use of 'covering'?

(Yes, there is a covering in the New Covenant which is foreshadowed by events in the Old, but it is not by blood.)


Additionally, could you say why you have gone beyond Paul's statement in Romans 3?

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

A
ArtB

Jesus-Is-Love wrote:

"Calvin even taught that it was GOD's will for Adam to fall. Most Calvinists don't believe that anymore - though there may still be a few who do. (Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism)

It was Calvin that made it "the law" to Kill "heretics", and many thousands were sentenced to death because of his declaration or ruling on this.


Was his teachings innerant? Or did he turn The Early Church's doctrine on it's head?"

I am no expert on Calvin, but I do know that the Holy Roman Catholic Church has a history of of killing so-called heretics going as far back as the forth Century after Constantine legalized Christianity as the official church of the Roman Empire and banned all the Pagan Churches, taking over the wealth of the pagans, and their temples. This caused many pagans to enter this new Roman Catholic Church en mass because that is where the money and power was now to be found. This is when self described Christians started praying to saints and revering Our Lady of this and Our Lady of that, and the practice of self-abuse entered into what was still called Christianity.

It is as if Satan could not beat the 'pristine' Christian Church of the 1st through 3rd Centuries (Pristine because there was no monetary or worldly reason to be a Christian, becoming a Christian usually brought persecution and loss of property and freedoms) so his next move was to have his people (pagans) to join the Church in an effort to destroy it from within.

On the other hand, Calvin can not be a member of the early church, He lived 1200 years after Constantine legalized Christianity, 1500 years after Jesus was born.

What happened to change Christianity in the 15th Century? The Printing Press was invented, and the first book published was the Bible. As more Bibles were printed, more and more people became literate and many could read the Bible what they read did not match at all what the Catholic Church was teaching (Indulgences, worshiping relics, praying to dead saints, purgatory and buying your way out of, earning ones way into heaven, reinstatement of keeping many of the Mosaic Laws as the means to get into Heaven, etc.

Now I do not know much about Calvin's actual life and teachings, But they can not be any worse than the deterioration of the Gospel under The Roman Catholic Church. The only teaching I may have in common with Calvin is that the saved were predestined by God to be saved prior to the Creation of the Cosmos and the Kingdom. And I only believe this because the Bible plainly says so.

What evidence do you have that Calvin's teachings cost the lives of thousands of people? Which BTW would be minimal in comparison to the Millions that were slaughtered by and/or enslaved by the Catholic Spanish, Portuguese, and the Dutch (then a colony of Spain) in the 15th through 19th centuries in Africa, South and Central America and the Caribbean Isles, as well as their other colonies around the world.

The man I admire is Martin Luther, his heart was in the right place, and he went about it through proper channels as best as he could. And the RCC almost agreed with him. It appears that there was a cabal in the Vatican that leaned toward Luther's views, including Michelangelo and a Pope, but they lost out to a second Vatican Cabal that won out using deadly force and threats.

see URL:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episodes/michelangelo-revealed/226/


C
Christinyou

""Jesus states clearly, even in The Revelation - that He is giving the Church choices to obey.""

Which they can now obey by their new nature, our father the devil out, The Spirit of Christ in. Nature depends in whom we are birthed. Now by the Spirit of Chrsit we can do the by our new nature the things that please God, which no man can do without God the Fathers intervention in our New Birth. Jesus said to the highest there was in Israel, "You (((Must))) be born again" or you cannot even see the things of the Kingdom of God. "I was blind but now I see.

""I almost thought Philip did - but now again, it's back to sounding as if "we do nothing" and we cannot choose to do anything. Back to the robots again and very unsettling.""

Being a new creature is very unsettling. Now with the mind of Christ to change the old man mind to His own nature by the Holy Spirit in us, we can make decissions to do the things that Please the Father, but Only in Christ. It does not matter what I do, Our Father is not looking to me to change me to the Image of His Son, but He has provided all that is necessary to confirm that I am a son and heir to the Family of God. It is Christ in me that gives me the right to do the things before our Father that please Him, Only in His Son. Without the new birth, nothing I did or could do allowed for provision of the Salvation of God in Christ Jesus. Has God delivered, is God delivering, "Doth deliver", will God deliver? Yes, Yes, For He that is born from above does not sin, because of the sinless Christ that is in me.

Robot, never, now I can love God the way He needs to be loved, which is not My nature by birth. The desire of my Heart has been changed by the Spirit of Christ in me and given power to my mind by the Holy Spirit Parakleet Teacher of my soul/mind, which now has the mind of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

A
ArtB

by Jesus-is-GOD on 2011/4/12 9:39:16

"But Art and Philip, you have both again thrown away all the verses posted on this thread alone that demand an 'action' on our part. Those commanding that we "keep His Words and keep His commandments" - this is what frightens me about your soteriology. You see nothing of the definition of "obedience".

You really do avoid actual scripture and choose to beat around the bush.

Again, what commandments are you keeping. You already agreed it was not the Mosaic Laws that you follow. So What Laws are you thinking that YOU MUST keep to save yourself?

S
sermonindex

Art, to answer your first post where you asked "how do I know this about Calvin" - it's from Schaff's History of the Church posted on pg 14 of this thread - my last post on that page.
How could anyone justify killing anyone who didn't agree with them? Some people use the excuse of "the times they lived in." Well that's Biblically insane. The first Church lived under severely persecuted times. There were Many who came against their doctrine.
There is No Excuse whatsoever for the slaughter of multiple thousands by the decree of a protestant pope, not only begun by his decree, but followed out for quite some time by his followers.

To your second post Brother, I see only two commandments that cover all of the "commands" in the N.T. and that is to Love The LORD your GOD with all of your heart, mind, soul and Strength and to Love others as yourself.... even your enemies -- as Corrie Ten Boom did.
If you recall her testimony - that one time after speaking at one church, the same guard who was responsible for killing her sister came to her and held out his hand to shake hers and how she wrote that for a moment she could not for the memories of all that this nazi guard had done - but she remembered the Scriptures and made the choice to obey them and forgive this man and extend her hand.

The Spirit of Christ is ALWAYS there to make our obedience good.
As my very first church used to say - you make one step, He makes two (or many more :). He wants our wills. He demands our obedience. He wants our Love but also demands us to "fear Him" and that is His Word.

GOD's Rest!

A
ArtB

'Amen Art, this is exactly what scripture says;

The fulfillment of the Word of God, not by men, but by the Christ that is in us."

Hang in there Phillip, we got it right. No one can earn their salvation by works of the Mosaic Laws. Nor did Jesus die as an example for us to keep the entire Mosaic Laws. Jesus was the the Paschal Lamb whose blood washes away all the sins (past, present, and future) who accept His Blood atonement on the Cross as washing away all our sins for all time, a true gift from God to all who accept Jesus blood as atoning for all their sins, and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, with whom we now fellowship daily, and whom the indwelling Spirit dwells and works all things to the good from we who believe this gospel of Jesus Christ. GOD WILL ACCOMPLISH IN US THAT WHICH HE PLANNED FOR US PRIOR TO HIS LAYING THE FOUNDATIONS OF BOTH THE COSMOS AND THE KINGDOM.

I will start a New Thread on the Laws of Christ. Since 'JIG' either does not know them or simply wishes to ignore them. Hopefully He will see how easily God made salvation to be. When Jesus died on the cross, God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant. We are under a New Law.


A
ArtB

To: JesusIsLove

I appreciate the Candor of your post. I agree that Christians ought not be Judge and Jury of people who disagree with us. We share our views as food for thought.

We share what we believe, What more can we do? And we listen.

I will share my views more clearly and thoroughly in a New Thread. I will call it: THE LAWS OF JESUS CHRIST.

S
sermonindex

Now I do not know much about Calvin's actual life and teachings, But they can not be any worse than the deterioration of the Gospel under The Roman Catholic Church.
Hi ArtB,

I think you could take some time to read Calvin's own words. There are faithful copies online. And, to find a proper biography of his life. He left France at the time a king was burning Protestants as torches to light his way to public events, because he could not agree with Rome.

S
sermonindex

Dear AtG, I'm sure that you didn't mean for your post here to be funny - but I couldn't help but get a short laugh because it's the fact that a man leaves one place that burns what others believe are heretics to go to another place to burn others that they believe are heretics. What's wrong with this picture?

It's not funny nor sensible because one of the "heretics" that he thought needed one type of "punishment" or another, were those who were Against Infant Baptism --- while that was a doctrine of Rome. We wouldn't be alive if living back in those days and having already said that I see those days coming again in His Word.


But the other thing that was sort of funny at first was how Adam Clarke commentaed on Titus 3:10 here - ""'After the first and second admonition, reject' - Labour to convince him of his error; but if he will not receive instruction, if he have shut his heart against conviction, then - burn him alive? No: even if demonstrably a heretic in any one sense of that word, and a disturber of the peace of the Church, God gives no man any other authority over him but to shun him, παραιτου. Do him no harm in body, soul, character, or substance; hold no communion with him; but leave him to God.""


The reason Adam Clarke asked that seemingly funny question (burn him alive?) was because he also believed as Servetus did - who was Calvin's first victim of being burnt at the stake (with green wood to prolong it). Both Servetus and Clarke believed that Jesus became "the Son" at conception. That Jesus was The WORD of GOD from Eternity past - till Eternity future and one of the Three in ONE - but they based what they believed on the verses "THIS DAY have I begotten thee" and "He SHALL be a son onto me and I SHALL be a father unto Him."

So, though Clarke's question seemed funny to me at first as well - I realized what he and Servetus had in common and why he may have included that in his commentary.
I'd be dead on a few accounts if alive back then but never felt I'd (we'd) escape much of the same in the days ahead - lest GOD take us naturally.

BUT - GOD said that HE, 'with' His Saints, will laugh in the End over the destruction of those who hate...


Those who laugh last ~ laugh best. Is that where that came from?


Now that's Holy Laughter, ey? Whatever makes GOD happy makes us happy too.
Remember that OLD song, "I'm not happy till You're happy too"?
That's The Bride singing to The Bridegroom.


GOD Bless!

S
sermonindex


Hi JiG,

I see what you mean. :)

Not wishing to defend burning at the stake, my understanding is that many years elapsed between Calvin's escape to Switzerland, and how Servetus ended up at his command. It is very sad.

What Calvin wrote is still worth reading.

Hi ArtB,

I'm not sure if you've noticed my earlier post to you, before about Calvin.

C
Christinyou

There is only ONE that is perfect. And He and He alone can make us perfect.

How do we present every man perfect? In Christ; Col 1:28

S
sermonindex

Again, what commandments are you keeping. You already agreed it was not the Mosaic Laws that you follow. So What Laws are you thinking that YOU MUST keep to save yourself?

The law of the Spirit is the only law we should be keeping.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus includes such commands as these that the Holy Spirit wants us to keep.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

777

S
sermonindex


Philip wrote: "There is only ONE that is perfect. And He and He alone can make us perfect.

How do we present every man perfect? In Christ; Col 1:28"


Brother Philip, no one has yet to deny that it is GOD Who works in us but this entire thread has been concerned with man's will toward GOD's end.

I've given this verse before as it's a perfect illustration of the two working together and becoming one.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

C
Christinyou

Jesus is God

What does it mean that Christ is in you, You are in Christ?
Is this not Gods end towards His will?

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

AtG wrote: "What Calvin wrote is still worth reading."


Sis, I'm sure Jim Jones spoke some truthful things as well.

I HAVE read more than enough in all these years about him and from him to say I can't swallow a word of it.

All it takes is 2% poison in the drinking supply to kill Everyone who drinks from it besides looking at the actual SPLIT within the Church ever since they departed from the WORD and the earliest of the early church fathers who were contemporaries of the Apostles... whereas, these men followed Augustine and Constantine and the combination of the two was what put an almost final death blow to the Apostolic teachings. If you want - you could type into a search "Augustine - Constantine" to see the roots of calvinism.

AtG I just cannot accept his tulip, his eschatology, his involvement with the state, his infant baptism and his being guilty of multiple thousands of murders.

As I said on page 14 - if we found out that Carter Conlon was responsible for the death of thousands back in Canada - would we still listen to him? To me - I see no difference - and Carter has had sounder doctrine in my book, yet I couldn't listen to him any further if that were the case. I'm sorry. I'm not being stubborn and my Pastor knows how I feel on this topic and still accepts me and doesn't force it on me at all. As long as I love Christ Jesus and His Word, that's the only basis he sees for true fellowship.

GOD Bless you!

S
sermonindex


Hi JiG,

About Calvin, really, I was encouraging ArtB to read his work, because he has never.

Obviously my reading of Calvin is very incomplete, as I didn't find any tulip there. To me, this has been added by theologians. But perhaps I have missed something.

Being 500 years further on in time, we have won greater liberties. Anabaptists were being executed in England during the same era, on the King's orders.

I think we have to remember that Calvin still rebelled against Rome, and infant baptism was not the biggest fish in the pond at the time. His stand for scripture was historically most important, wherever else he failed.

Perhaps he repented for his sins? Like Paul did?

Did God use him? Yes, He did.

S
sermonindex

Hia AtG, wasn't trying to bud in on your suggestion to Art but from your last post on the previous page, your suggestion was in your portion to me, before writing to Art in that same post.

We can add this from a Calvinist website to the tulip that was indeed his beliefs as well...

Supralapsarianism

The position of John Calvin in which, before the fall of Adam, God not only predestined those who would be saved and those who were destined for Hell, but He also caused Adam to sin. This view isn't held by all who are called "Calvinists". Non-Calvinists conclude that this view makes God the author of sin. Moderate Calvinists have adopted a variant position on this problem called sublapsarinanism.


Sublapsarianism

This view held by moderate Calvinists alleviates what many see as a dangerous implication of Supralapsarianism, that God is the author of sin. Instead of laying the fault for Adam's sin at God's feet, sublapsarians believe that God forsaw the sin of Adam and the subsequent spiritual death and fall into depravity, including the consequence that those who He did not elect for salvation, would go to Hell.

I can't buy any of it and the main issue of this thread, regarding us having "no choice - no will of man - or no freewill, as some call it" was part of this that I cannot accept and had burdened me enough to begin this thread and title it as is, in the first place, despite how I'm not too inclined to start threads unless it's a burden of one sort or another.

The whole of tulip stands or falls on this principle of 'does mankind have a choice' in their actions before GOD.

I've contended that even the Law of our Land would say that even the founding fathers of this Nation believe that they do.
The fact that there are differing degrees of Hell would say that GOD does judge men according to their decisions as well.


Thanks for your participation!

C
Christinyou

"""The position of John Calvin in which, before the fall of Adam, God not only predestined those who would be saved and those who were destined for Hell, but He also caused Adam to sin. This view isn't held by all who are called "Calvinists". Non-Calvinists conclude that this view makes God the author of sin. Moderate Calvinists have adopted a variant position on this problem called sublapsarinanism."""

God never intended any to go into hell, but their is a hell and He must have created it. God never intended man to live a life in himself, the tree in the garden was life in Christ. He did not predistinate anyone to be in Hell, but He knew there would be those that would be there. God from before the foundation of the world predestinated Christ to be in His children, never on his own, with his own nature which was a created nature, not spiritual, until Adam chose to believe the liar and fall into a nature of sin and death and hell. I we look at all the predestination scripture, they do not predestinate to heaven or hell, but to be in Christ, with Christ as our life and nature. The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was Gods provision for sinful man which Adam chose for the whole human race, all die.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This was Gods plan even before the foundation of the world, to be in Christ. Nowhere does it say predestinated to hell.

Ephesians 1:5-6 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Predestinated to be in the Family of God, by spiritual birth and by legal adoption. Never predestinated to hell.

Ephesians 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

This is the mystery revealed to Paul, "Christ in you the hope of Glory. Now revealed to His saints and sons, by the birth of Christ in the believer. Old nature chosen by Adam, Satan out, new nature chosen by God, Christ in.,

Ephesians 1:11-12 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Calvin did not understand this and no one has until it was revealed to Paul.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

The mystery revealed; "Christ in you the hope of glory"

Read the first chapter in Gal, Eph, Phillipians, and Colossians.

No predestination to hell, we choose that for ourselves and Adams choice. You want free will? WE got it.

Quote: """This is a one-sided truth because you will not explained how people end up in Hell by their actions or non actions."""

Satan, sin nature, "what I want to do I do not, what I don't want to I do" that is me. Christ in me keeps me from this wretched man that I am and now my Spirit is perfect, it is Christs Spirit that lives in me. "it is no longer I who live but Christ who live in me and the life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

R
rbanks

Reading this thread will make one dizzy.

Phillip,

I can agree with the truth in many of your posts but why are you afraid to talk about the persons responsibility.

I agree that the scriptures verify that without Christ we can do nothing but also the scriptures also reveal that without our willingness God will not accomplish anything in us.

Just notice your last post where you said

No predestination to hell, we choose that for ourselves and Adams choice. You want free will? WE got it.

This is a one-sided truth because you will not explained how people end up in Hell by their actions or non actions.

So are you saying that the multitudes that end up in Hell are the ones God left to their free will; but would you mind please explaining why He left certain ones to their own free will so that they ended up in Hell and the certain others ones that were predestined to heaven without blaming God for the one's that went to hell.

Brother I am one that is well aware that I couldn't come to Christ except the Spirit had drawn me. I understand that I am saved by grace and not of myself nor of my works.

I don't know how long I will post because I get tired quickly of the ignorance of people who will accuse God for people being lost and ending up in Hell because God decided not to save some because He really didn't have to save any.

I believe whole heartily that God wanted to save all His creation but created man as a free moral agent and this leaves some responsibility to man but not all. THE SOME RESPONSIBILITY given to mankind is the reason some men receive eternal life and other men receive eternal damnation.

The scriptures declare that God hath given to every man a measure of faith and no matter how bound a man's will is to sin, God can still send the Holy Spirit upon a man with conviction along with the ability to respond in faith after hearing the gospel but man can also reject the convicting power of conviction if that 'SOME RESPONSIBILITY' given to man is acted upon in unbelief in willful disobedience.

All for now and blessings to all!

S
sermonindex

Whatever theological deficiencies that Wesley may have had, he recognized of God that:

"He will punish no man for doing anything he could not possibly avoid; for omitting anything which he could not possibly do. Every punishment supposes the offender might have avoided the offence for which he is punished. Otherwise, to punish him would be palpably unjust, and inconsistent with the character of God our governor."

So, although it is indeed true that no man can be condemned for his inability to do what God has expressly commanded him to do, it is also accurate to state that he can be condemned for his ignorance or his unwillingness. Therefore, the principle that overthrows TOTAL DEPRAVITY is this:

"A man can be condemned for his ignorance or his unwillingness, but never for his inability to do what God has commanded him to do. Inability is the ground of salvation for infants and idiots. The attempts of the Calvinists to explain the salvation of infants by other means is absurd.

There are two types of scripture that overthrow the false notion of TOTAL DEPRAVITY (meaning TOTAL INABILITY to choose good).

The first type are those verses where there is a command to believe; the second type concerns those passages that imply the possibility of doing so. If the multitude and variety of commands, exhortations, admonishments, and warnings in the Bible are to be taken seriously,then man must have the ability to respond to them either to his good or to his detriment. This is especially true when it concerns his salvation:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There are also the INVITATIONS OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF in the NEW TESTAMENT to be considered:

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

If Total Depravity (man's inability to choose any good) is true, then what are we to make of these verses? Is God just mocking His creation? Would God present salvation to a man knowing that the man could never even will to receive it? The God of the Bible is not the god of Calvinism.

God Himself even vouches for the genuineness of His intentions:

Isa 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Erasmus recognized this and used it against Luther in their debate over free will. "If it is not in the power of every man to keep what is commanded, all the exhortations in the Scriptures, and all the promises, threats, expostulations, reproofs, adjurations, blessings, curses and hosts of precepts, are of necessity useless." (Desiderius Erasmus,quoted in Luther, p. 171).

The other type of Scripture that overthrows the doctrine of Total Depravity concerns those passages that imply the possibility that a man can believe. There are NO POSSIBILITIES in TULIP CALVINISM, but in the BIBLE, it is clear that the possibility exists that a man could believe under a given set of circumstances:

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

These verses do not mean that under a given set of circumstances a man will always believe. But they do show that there is that possibility that a man could believe. And if there exists the slightest possibility that a man could believe, the doctrine of Total Depravity falls by the wayside.

Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

If Total Depravity is true, then all a man can do is hope that he will be saved and wait for God to save him.

And if a man cannot do anything himself, then another man cannot do anything for him, either, yet the Calvinist insists on the necessity of missions and evangelism.

If a man REALLY BELIEVED in the first point of Calvinism, he would never seriously think of EVANGELISM or MISSIONS.

For not only are unregenerate men responsible for their inability, but regenerate men are likewise responsible to preach the Gospel to them even though they have the inability to receive it. This is nothing but absurdity, again.

Erasmus recognized this and used it against Luther in their debate over free will:

"If it is not in the power of every man to keep what is commanded, all the exhortations in the Scriptures, and all the promises, threats, expostulations, reproofs, adjurations, blessings, curses and hosts of precepts, are of necessity useless." (Desiderius Erasmus, quoted in Luther, p. 171)

Excerpts from "The Other Side of Calvinism", by Laurence M. Vance


A777

C
Christinyou

If I could answer that question, I could knowing Gods ways way more than He has seen fit to allow me to know. All I know is that God is in charge and I am not. That is what I will stand on. What He wants I will do my dead level best to obey. But the big thing is; I KNOW HOW TO LOVE HIM MUCH MORE THAN WHEN I BECAME A CHRISTIAN 40 YEARS AGO. I must stand on scripture as I try to do in all my decisions when it comes to keeping the commandments of Christ, not the Law.

Ro 9:1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Ro 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Ro 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ro 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Ro 9:25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Ro 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ro 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Ro 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Ro 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Ro 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God makes decisions, I only try to follow His will as best as He has given me the tools to accomplish that will. I know His will for me in Christ Jesus. He saved me by Grace through faith and that not of my own. He birthed His only Son in me giving me a new nature. How do you tell someone thAT does not know, God will accomplish His will in my life and The Body of Christ His Son's church. His word will not return void in my life. More and More I am learning to obey what He is laying down a plan in an engineers drawing for my life and it centers around the Christ He has birthed in me by the Incorruptable Seed, His own Sperma of God, Jesus Christ. It is Him that works in me and I follow, it is Him that shows me where to go and what to do, I do it as best I can with the tools given me. Colossians 1:28-29 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

As to my part in this, it is to follow His leading and do His will for me in my life that will be in obedience to His unction. In Christ I can do all things, but mess up some times and run to 1 John 1:9. Start all over again fresh because there is not condemnation in Christ Jesus in my life. He works and His works in me are mighty to tearing down fortresses against my new God Nature that has been given me by His Son. I am truly a new creature, As the old saying go, I use to want to please myself and maybe a few others, but in Christ I have gotten my want to changed, to please Him always Love Him and all my brother and sisters. It is by His power in me that has changed me, all that is from above, that is where all good comes from.

To put my will and the purpose of God together is a total learning process for all eternity. Line by Line, precept upon precept a little here and a little there. If I ever get the free will you all say we have I will let you know.
But now I depend on the will of Christ in me and leading with power of the Holy Spirit to bring me into a position to be a son in the Fathers House and not a stranger standing in the corner.

In Christ: Phillip

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Hi JiG,

I think you've read too much into my suggestion to read Calvin. I did not have it in mind to SUPPORT 'Calvinism'. But I recognise that IN THE CONTEXT of his time, he challenged Roman doctrine.

In the same way that I think it's crazy to read Marxism into books written before Marx, while I hear what you're saying about the influence of Augustine on Calvin, I do think it's speculative to attribute the roots of Calvinism to men who lived before his generation. Men who could have had no idea how the Roman Church would change after their death.

As I think I said before, I don't find 'Calvinism' in my Bible, but, considering Calvin's era and his youth, I am comforted by his knowledge of scripture AT THAT TIME, and his attempts to draw a purer BIBLICAL doctrine out into the PUBLIC DOMAIN - as opposed to the mysterious machinations of Romanism, which HID the word of God from its people.

PEOPLE - especially now who have their own Bibles - are put to shame by Calvin's knowledge of the scriptures - and they have NO GROUND to accept 'Calvinism' in this day and age, except they abrogate their own responsibilities to KNOW GOD for themselves, as HE Himself constantly pleads.

The first question in the Shorter Catechism (of Presbyterian origin, and therefore influenced by Calvin's thought) is:

What is man's chief end?

Answer:

Man's chief end is to KNOW GOD and ENJOY HIM FOREVER.

I don't agree with the whole of the Shorter Catechism, but I see that my disagreement with certain questions and answers, is because of the context in which it was written, where it had to answer certain differences from Catholicism, without losing - for instance - the SCRIPTURAL injunction not to neglect the assembling of ourselves together (for example).

ONLY if Christians use the Bible as their sole handbook, will the Church begin to look like, act like, believe like, think like... the men on whom it was founded in the days after Pentecost.

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M
mguldner

Great post Atg, I would also point out that many say Calvin if he lived today would likely not be a Calvinist. Many things were added to Calvinism that Calvin didn't personally endorse or even express. His followers, after his death, added these things to his ministry and thus we have what we know as Calvinism.

I would also like to point out that Calvinism focus on God's sovereignity was a direct back lash of the times as Atg stated, Look at what the Catholic church was teaching at the time and still teach, Calvin however focused on God's Sovereignity the sideeffect of this in my opinion is the unbalancedness of man's responsibility because God is so Sovereign.

I find that many times in with these kind of things many will go off from one ditch of thought and when change comes simply go to the other side of the road in the parallel ditch, to walk to road requires balance.

A good example of this is Luther and his bunch, When He rediscovered the wonderous truth we all know and love Grace through Faith many people stopped doing everything despite our many commands from the Lord Jesus Christ to Go into the world, to flee iniquity, etc. People took it as a ticket to do whatever and Anarchy and wickedness was the eventual fruits produced.

A balanced theology is a at times hard to obtain but with humility and the Word of God we can find it and walk the narrow path.

God Bless,
Matthew

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TheRick2018

But upon the fall man's will became enslaved to sin. We still have a will but it loves sin and even the good things we do are done with a sinful motive.

It is on the basis of the conscience that a depraved sinner who has never heard the Gospel has "ability".

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The "accusing and excusing" suggests that the fallen conscience still faces the choice between good or evil.

But what about the existence of a "natural motivation to moral goodness in the fallen will" that has been corrupted by the Fall? (Dewey Hoitenga, John Calvin and the Will, p. 71)

From an honet Calvinist: "The answer has to be yes; for it is the most reasonable interpretation of the Pauline language. The burden of proof is on Calvin to defend his view that the fll reduced the nature of the will as God created it to a spontaneous and exclusive pursuit of evil." (Ibid, Hoitenga, p. 111)

Secondly, the Lord Jesus laid down a principle that directly appeals to man's will. After saying to the Jews that His doctrine was not His own, but God's (John 7:16).

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Arthur Pink even confirms the fact of man's "ability".

"In this declaration our Lord laid down a principle of supreme practical importance. He informs us how certainty may be arrived at in connection with the things of God. He tells us how spiritual discernment and assurance are to be obtained. The fundamental condition for obtaining spiritual knowledge is a genuine heart-desire to carry out the revealed will of God in our lives. Wherever the heart is right God gives the capacity to apprehend the truth." (Arthur Ping, Exposition of the Gospel of John, p. 385)

These comments by Pink show that the Calvinistic teaching that man's will is not free because it can only act according to his depraved nature is disproved by not only the Bible, but Calvinists as well.

A true viewof man's fallen nature and depraved condition shows tat man does have the "ability" to do "good." Sometimes it is generic statements that apply to anyone:

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1Pet 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Other times it is the unregenerate in general that do "good".

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

There are also occasions when specific inidividuals are mentioned as either doing good or having the capability of doing good. Abimelech and a couple of his companions, all of whom hated Isaac (Gen 26:27), who was a type of Christ (Gen 22:2), were unregenerate, yet is is recorded that they replied to Isaac:

Gen 26:29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.

God Himself, even recognized that the wicked could do "good":

Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The principle of right action with a deceitful, wicked heart (Jer 17:9) is confirmed by Jesus Christ:

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

A deed can be good no matter what the motive is.

If in fact unregenerate men can be "good" and do "good," which the above Scriptures clearly show, then how does this correspond with the Scriptural declarations that no one does anything good?

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

In the ultimate sense, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only man who ever lived "without sin" (Heb 4:16) an always "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38). He WAS GOOD because HE WAS GOD.

There is an important distinction between right action and righteousness action. As the Calvinist, Donald Grey Barnhouse (1895-1960) explains: "Total depravity does not mean that there is no good in man, but that there is no good in man which can satisfy God."
(Donald Grey Barnhouse, God's Wrath, Vol1, p. 216)

To get around this clear teaching of Scripture, Calvinists have invented a difference between "relatively good works" and "truly good works". But owing to their propensity to overwhelm with theological terms, these are also referred to as "relative" and "absolute" good, "natural" and "spiritual" good and "non-moral" and "moral" good.

T insist that the unregenerate man can do "good", does not imply that anything he does is pleasing to God or contributes to his salvation in any way.

The problem of the will is whether to yield to the flesh:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Excerpts from "The Other Side of Calvinism", by Laurence M. Vance.

A777

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From Christinyou,

Question about birthing children.

Did our biological fathers consult with us, did we want to be born?

Does our Heavenly Father consult and get our permission to give rebirth, do we want to be reborn?

This is an erroneous analogy. Let me illustrate.

Spiritually dead men are still biologically alive. A corpse does not cry out for help.

THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Spiritually dead men can walk, have a conversation and fulfill desires.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Being "dead in sin" does not mean to be unconscious. Even the regenerated man is said to be dead, doctrinally speaking (Rom 6:2, Col 3:3)

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

And regarding physically dead men, it should be noted from scripture that a physically dead man can lift up his eyes, feel torment, see, speak, pray and reason. (Luke 16:23-28).

Death is never non-existence, unless one is a Jehovah's Witness. The cadaver is not the real man and the corpse is never the actual person. The unsaved dead who suffer "the SECOND DEATH" (Rev 20:14) experience conscious torment (Matt 13:42).

A REAL ANALOGY that illustrates the fact that a sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins", (Eph 2:1) is the biblical story of the prodigal son who "was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found" (Luke 15:24)

Instead of trying to draw analogies between spiritual and physical death and deriving inferences from them, it is best to stick to the Scriptures and regulate all of our thoughts from them." Quote from Calvinist, Arthur Pink, Gleanings from the Scriptures, p. 276

As far as likening the new birth to the birth of a baby:

Physical birth is the bringing forth into this world of a creature, a complee personality, which before conception had no existence whatsoever. But the one who is regenerated (born again) had a complete personality before he was born again.

Arthur Pink again, states the case against Calvinism:

"Regeneration is not the creating of a person which hitherto had no existence, but the RENEWING and RESTORING of a person whom sin had unfitted for communion with God, and this by the communication of a nature of principle of life, which gives a new and different bias to all his old faculties." (Pink, Salvation, p. 26-27)

Another reason all these analogies break down is the matter of responsibility. An uncreated creature is not responsible for anything. If an unregenerate man corresponds to an uncreated creature, then he is not responsible for any of his deeds. If a unborn baby is not responsible for anything, then if the analogy were to hold up, you would have to say that an unregenerate man is not responsible for any of his deeds.

And finally, if you are going to make an exact parallel between a physically dead man and a spiritually dead man, and you say that neither one can believe on Jesus Christ, then neither one cannot NOT believe. If a dead man can't accept Christ, then neither can He reject Him.

A DEAD MAN CANNOT BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST, BUT A DEAD SINNER CAN.

A777

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Comment on mguldner's post, previous page: (edited for clarity).

First, thanks.

I find that many times in with these kind of things many will go off from one ditch of thought and when change comes simply go to the other side of the road in the parallel ditch, to walk to road requires balance.
This happened with the breaking of bread, which at the time of the Reformation - to make as large a separation between Confession preceding weekly Mass in Catholicism - was reduced to quarterly per year. Thus, the correctness of making one's heart right with God and one another, which is the basis of the connection between confession and communion with God, became almost as dead but in a different way, although the empty cross (as opposed to crucifix) proclaimed the completeness of Christ's death for all sin.

Also within Protestantism arose disagreements about whether the pulpit (the preaching of the word) should be as central as the communion table. Therefore, some churches had the pulpit moved to the side or designed to the side, while in others both remained in the middle. Of course, the height could then become a point of controversy.

Alistair Begg alludes to the importance of what can be communicated by the ceremony associated with these arrangements, near the beginning of his excellent talk aimed at those young men in the congregation who had been called to preach - I am Not Ashamed of the Gospel (not available on SI).

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Hia Alive-it-GOD.

Just a quick post today.

We can't give Calvin the glory for the break from Catholicism because there were many before him that had already done so and even burnt at the stake, etc for doing so. Even Anabaptists. He came afterwards. Even Augustine was Catholic - who Calvin agreed with.
Calvin just had a lot more 'Energy' and 'wrote more books' and got in with the Gov of his day. To me his movement was what normally happens After a true move of GOD. Hmm.
I think it may be worth-while to do more study on Calvin and Augustine and then those anti-catholicism figures who preceded Calvin. Calvin mainly influenced Geneva/Switzerland in his time.
I also strongly believe that "knowing Scripture" does not qualify one to be studied or followed or worth reading their books, especially in view of where all of that "Scripture knowledge" led to. Oh my!
We had to study both sides way back when in college and as I've mentioned before, what church I'm still a Member of.
Strange, but not really.
We had to go through 6 weeks of training in the catechisms for prep for membership and, well, they know how I feel but still accept me. Most Presbyterians don't make anyone side with Calvin but are reformed in theology but some are more or very slack on what their members hold to and some of them don't preach the reformed beliefs for the sake of their members and because some of them don't side with Calvin anyway, but preach holiness and "choice" - and that's why I joined at the time (their preaching of us having the choice toward holiness) and still receive the CDs of the Sunday sermons, since I've moved.
I wouldn't go there back when, until they had sent me a few months worth of CDs of the sermons and also I found that this one Pastor is exceptional in every way. Smartest man I've ever met as well and also led by the Spirit - not leaning to his own mind for direction in counseling and praying for us/me.
What we did/do agree on is that - if a person isn't living The Life - they're not saved.

There's at least three Different branches of Presbys in the U.S. that I know of, but probably more. There's the more liberal branch the PCUSA, then there's the ReformedPC and then the conservative one that I'm a member of - the PCA.


In my Book - the chief end of man is to Love GOD & others! :)

How can we "bring glory to" or "enjoy" someone we don't Love? (that question's not to you) but my answer to that one point of the catechism.
Jesus said the whole of the law and the prophets were contained in just those two commandments.

Sigh, I'm whole-heartedly with you also on getting our doctrine the way some have Claimed to - "Sola Scriptura" and the furthest back I care to go in searching the history of sound doctrine is those ECF that I posted on page 3 - that's it.
Sigh.


GOD Bless!

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Hi again Jesus-is-GOD,

We can't give Calvin the glory for the break from Catholicism because there were many before him that had already done so and even burnt at the stake
Again, I must be coming from a different cultural background. I am only trying to recognise Calvin's contribution to sound doctrine. Where sound biblical doctrine parts company with 'Calvinism', I'm with the Bible, not Calvinism.

We still have Roman Catholic schools over here, and free school transport for them because they're a minority faith. There are regular attempts to get Catholicism back into the ascendancy, with the undeclared aim of causing the Act of Settlement, 1688, to be re-examined by Parliament. Although this may not seem relevant in the US which has a republican (as opposed to monarchical) system, it is always on the back-burner over here.

We don't have 'reformed theology' over here like you do. I'm not even sure what an American means by that (seriously). The only reason I mentioned Presbyterianism, is because it is a biblical pattern when set against bishop ricks. Much blood was shed over that one difference over here, and the very different church governance which each system employs. If you give this some thought, I think you'll see it greatly influenced Protestant Christianity in North America.

However, it is difficult to justify either here or there, the CONTINUING system which puts one minister in charge of all preaching, (as seemed to be necessary before universal education), as this is not the biblical model, and gives more of an appearance of agreement with Roman thinking than any 'protestant' wants, nor should be able to justify.

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Okay, I realise this is dragging the thread off track.

Returning to free will, I would like to point out that anyone who can 'do' anything, has a free will. No-one forces a person out of bed on a sunny day, or to dig a field to plant food, or to buy a car to drive. I'm sure God thinks it's manifestly obvious that people make choices all the time, and that's what Paul picks upon in Romans 1 when he talks about holding the truth in unrighteousness, where people who KNOW God, CHOOSE not to be influenced by that knowledge of truth.

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I've been thinking about the 'conscience' of men.

I actually know unsaved men who's conscience or moral purity or decisions for what's right are stronger than those of some professed believers. They have chosen not to steal, kill, lie, look at other women besides their wives and the such. Some believe that this conscience is given to all men by GOD and that they can also silence that conscience by their choices. I just heard a good message on this conscience last week.
That it's not just very corrupt men that have seen their need for a loving Saviour, as we normally only take notice of those type 'testimonies'. I'm not quite positive on this, but I wonder, how many 'very moral' men in this world have sought for the Saviour of the world, compared to full-blown morally corrupt men/women.
Maybe we could launch some sort of poll or investigation into this because the men in my family have always been "good" men - from my great-great-grandfather on up. Hmm. Now I'm even the more curious but not discouraged. Prayer does 'change things'. That about fox-holes and all. Situations within a person's environment, health issues, losses and so forth could potentially drive even the 'best' man to his knees and looking up for help. GOD knows we'll all need help one day and pray it wouldn't take a tsunami or worse before we get there. There's no room for autonomous living when one enters eternity. Regardless of one's beliefs - it would seem that man would wish something more than merely evaporating upon his death ... one would think.
Even just 'having a purpose' in this life fades from the pages of history with 99% or so. Few even talk about family members past those whom they've known - like further back then great-great-grandfathers. The rest are not remembered on earth by anyone anymore. Their lives just passed without a further word about them - as if they had never existed.
Wouldn't one think, that living just for the here and now with no thought of what comes after life is difficult to maintain and most especially through the death process?
Just thinking further on this GOD given gift of choice & conscience. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!

C
Christinyou

"""Physical birth is the bringing forth into this world of a creature, a complee personality, which before conception had no existence whatsoever. But the one who is regenerated (born again) had a complete personality before he was born again."""

Not spiritually, that was of the devil.

I am not a fixer upper. I am a new creature in Christ, never before seen or known until Paul was given the revelation of Christ in him.

We have a new Spirit.

We have the Mind of Christ in us and our old man mind is the only thing being renewed. This is the only metamorphose.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We have the The Holy Spirit power in us.

We have also been given the privilege of getting out of the old flesh bodies. Then we are prepared to enter the Fathers House as heirs and sons of God, learning Christ and the Father forever.

A new human birth is just an analogy of what God aaccomplishes in our New born again, rebirth, birthed anew in Christ by the Fathers Incorruptable Seed, which is Christ the Living Word, in the believer. I cannot rebirth myself and I cannot biological birth myself.

In Christ: Phillip

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The point I was making is that a human that does not exist cannot make any decision, or exercise their will. They don't exist.

This is where the analogy breaks down.

A person that is "dead in trespasses and sins" is not dead physically, just spiritually. Since they are not dead physically and do exist, have personality, conscience, will, decision making abilities, a mind, and thus, can be given understanding by the Holy Spirit on which to make a decision to follow Christ or to continue to follow their pernicious ways.

They don't "rebirth themselves". Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit. But the Lord will not violate man's will regarding the New Birth.

He will spiritually regenerate man and make him a new creature in Christ, but not against man's will.

And regarding physically dead men, it should be noted from scripture that a physically dead man can lift up his eyes, feel torment, see, speak, pray and reason. (Luke 16:23-28).

A REAL ANALOGY that illustrates the fact that a sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins", (Eph 2:1) is the biblical story of the prodigal son who "was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found" (Luke 15:24)


The prodigal son, came to his senses and made a decision to go to his father and repent. That's why we are told to preach the Gospel. Some plant, some water, but the Lord gives the increase. Yes, He is the one that performs the miracle of a man being born from above, regenerated, born-again, spiritually.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You need information and understanding in which to make a decision, one way or another. God knows this. The Lord gives understanding and illuminates the heart of man so that he KNOWS what is what and will be without excuse, if he REJECTS the GIFT of SALVATION, JESUS CHRIST.

Man either believes and receives Christ or rejects Him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It is an act of your will to receive something.

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Corrie Ten Boom gave some strong advice on being prepared for 'anything'. I felt to repost just a clip from her letter posted earlier on this thread ~

** "First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

** Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

** We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

** In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

** Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad ...
"When I am weak, then I shall be strong", the Bible says."

end quote.


I haven't been able to Not notice the lack of the "baptism in The Holy Spirit" in much of the preachers and their followers this last so many years.

Someone must have taught the Church that this isn't necessary anymore.

That the command of Christ Jesus to His Apostles doesn't include or apply to us.

I listen to and read a lot of sermons in a week and many are lacking in 'something'.
Some go on for over an hour and there's just no LIFE in them.
Some lean mainly to just their own human intellect.
Few preach spontaneously and some I've heard may, but it's just basically a rambling on & on. No LIFE.
The Bread of Life is LIFE when broken and shared.
It cuts to the quick. How can "Bread" cut? I suppose because it's also His Sword that proceeds out of His mouth - as seen in Revelation chpt 19 - but it's also a healing balm. Not a healing just for the moment - but His fruit Lasts.
The Baptism of The Holy Spirit is that extra measure poured out of The Spirit of Truth, besides the power that backs His Truth only and reveals HIM as Life and life more abundantly, in Spirit.

Joh 16:13, 14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all Truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Even the Old Testament Prophets knew they needed His fulness and enabling to speak His Words and to do His Work... 1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time "the Spirit of Christ which was in them" did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Same Spirit - The Spirit of Christ - The Spirit of GOD - The Holy Spirit - The Spirit of Truth - The Comforter - The Spirit of Jesus Christ [Php 1:19], in order to do what He did and desires to do through His believers as He said - "and greater things shall ye do" ~ I believe that this applies to those who seek nothing for themselves - that seek nothing of their own.


Well, just posting things that go through my heart/mind again and this about the difference being noticable between the true 'haves and have nots' -- But the extremes may also be the cause of many turning away in fear of seeking His Baptism - That much I can surely understand because I was one of those fearful, until He showed me and I fully believed Luke 11:9-13 - "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

What say ye?

S
sermonindex

What say ye?

I totally agree with you.

Today, the Gospel of Resignation instead of the Gospel of Resurrection, is what is being preached and PRACTICED.

Too many today, think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit either ceased or those who do believe in it, just camp our there just like some people camp out on Salvation all their lives.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant to only be a doorway to the deeper life of the cross and of power. Not TV Preacher power, but power to live holy and be an overcomer, each day.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Just the beginning, not where we are suppose to camp out.
I could say more and might do that later.

A777

C
Christinyou

"""The point I was making is that a human that does not exist cannot make any decision, or exercise their will. They don't exist."""

If we did not exist, why are we crucified with Christ?

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Now I am dead and He is life in me.

In Christ: PHILLIP

S
sermonindex

???

S
sermonindex

Too many today, think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit either ceased or those who do believe in it, just camp our there just like some people camp out on Salvation all their lives.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant to only be a doorway to the deeper life of the cross and of power. Not TV Preacher power, but power to live holy and be an overcomer, each day.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Just the beginning, not where we are suppose to camp out.
I could say more and might do that later.


Amen & please do Brother.

L
looserchapel

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

which means you still live, no? Or Jesus just drags around your dead body?? Don't answer, Our Lord is hugely greater than a mere voodoo king...I mean, we still live, our life is hidden IN Him, when Jesus commands us to abide in Him, i think it involves the "us" and the "Him", in case some of us would miss it, He turned the sentence the other way around to make His point "and I in you", because without Him we can do NOTHING (notice the "Him" and the "we", it's not that without "Him" "He" can do nothing or without "us" "we" can do nothing or even worse without "us" "He" can do nothing, etc.)

So please Bro Phillip, we all agree that "Christ liveth in us" and "I no longer live", which of course means that the flesh is to be dead/crucified (its will, its affection, etc.) but the Apostle Paul added the verse i quoted above so as to leave no room for the "passivist" and those with "suicidal thoughts".

come on Bro, it's JESUS, it's LIFE, LIFE, life is NEVER a passive thing, it's an ACTIVE/exciting stuff, as a matter of fact just read Romans 7, it's not the "most" exciting thing we have ever read, right? but read Romans 8, it's way far from Rom.7 and its dead march heading to the burial of the SELF, again, Our Lord said He is LIFE and if we are left but dead i mean really dead (i.e unable to receive His life) it leaves one possibility: Jesus is LIFE and LIVES and we DIED and remain DEAD, it is as though Jesus never resurrected

In closing, can I draw your attention with regard to our very eternal nature? we don't really "die" in its full (human) sense , I mean at the end some will enjoy God's Eternal presence and some will undergo Eternal damnation but both still EXIST

Blessings,

L
looserchapel

Bro Phillip,

I think the hint is found in your very signature: IN CHRIST, the point is not that we are dead our we live, the point is that we are IN CHRIST, don't over-emphasize the "death"... being dead is no good for anyone, but being IN CHRIST, it makes a world of difference (on comparison to be IN sin, and thus to die IN sin)

Blessings

C
Christinyou

Christ is our new life. I see His stripes and crown, blood streaming down His face, I realize that should be me, they kept beating Him, then the ultimate, death on the Cross. When Jesus drank the cup in the garden, the sin of the whole world, I was in that cup that went into His body. Then the Lamb slain before the foundation, was resurrected and that is now my new life also. Before I can have life I must see my death on the cross with Him, that I might partake in His resurrection Life. The power of God in the born again Chrildren of God our Father. No more condemnation in Christ Jesus our Lord. By His stripes we are healed, much more that just physical.

In Christ: Phillip

L
looserchapel

AMEN!!!

we were the ones who should have drunk that cup... yet He did it, I cannot understand, even now...
This is the point A (yes, we have to ever look on that Cross) but we are to move to point B, Jesus Glorified, our life HIDDEN in Him, etc. (Colossians 3)

S
sermonindex

re-posting. Some good principles to understand.

Man's will is brought into bondage by DECEPTION.

SCRIPTURE: "Christ lives in me". Gal 2:20

WRONG CONCEPT: I do not live now at all.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I live by the faith of the Son of God.

PRINCIPLE: God does not require self-effacement for His life to be manifested. God does not require that your personality cease to exist.

SCRIPTURE: "I am crucifed with Christ". (Gal 2:20)

WRONG CONCEPT: I am dead and must practice death.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I died with Christ and am raised by his life to live.

PRINCIPLE: God's purpose for the Believer is not death but life.

SCRIPTURE: "God worketh in me". (Phil 2:13)

WRONG CONCEPT: I do not work, only surrender and God performs both the willing and the working.
RIGHT CONCEPT: Since I have His power in me, I can do all things through Christ.

PRINCIPLE: God never sets aside man's will. God never requires man to cease his activities before He can work.

Remember, PAUL THE APOSTLE said, "I CAN do all things through Christ..."

SCRIPTURE: "those who obey Him (Holy Spirit)" (Acts 5:32)

WRONG CONCEPT: I must surrender my whole being to the invisible Spirit.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I will obey God the Father through the Spirit.

PRINCIPLE: The Holy Spirit will not think through my mind, nor feel through my emotions, nor decide through my will. The Holy Spirit guides by divine impressions upon man's spirit.

SCRIPTURE: "God's love...through the Holy Spirit" (Rom 5:5)

WRONG CONCEPT: I will not love. The Holy Spirit will give them God's love.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I will love them as the Holy Spirit has shown me God's love. (As you receive God's love you make a choice to love).

PRINCIPLE: To love is a choice. We choose to love as God has loved us.

SCRIPTURE: "In everything give thanks" (I Thess 5:18)

WRONG CONCEPT: I WILL accept all circumstances as the will of God.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I WILL SUBMIT myself to God in all circumstances.

PRINCIPLE: Submission to God and resistance to evil must work together. (James 4:7)

SCRIPTURE: "when I am weak, then I am strong" (2COR 12:10)

WRONG CONCEPT: I will to be weak so that I am strong.
RIGHT CONCEPT: The believer does not choose weakness, the weak believer shall have God's strength.

PRINCIPLE: God is sufficient in whatever state you may be.

SCRIPTURE: "Thy Will be done"

WRONG CONCEPT: God wills for me, I don't have to choose.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I choose to do His will.

PRINCIPLE: God never substitutes His will for man's.

WE ARE TO USE OUR WILL TO CHOOSE HIS WILL, as Jesus did.

Our thoughts and will come into agreement with His thoughts and will. We think His thoughts and do His will. This is all an act of our will. He does not "take us over".

A777

C
Christinyou

Re:
"""re-posting. Some good principles to understand.

Man's will is brought into bondage by DECEPTION.

SCRIPTURE: "Christ lives in me". Gal 2:20

WRONG CONCEPT: I do not live now at all.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I live by the faith of the Son of God.

PRINCIPLE: God does not require self-effacement for His life to be manifested. God does not require that your personality cease to exist."""

That is why no two of us are the same, not even twins. Christ comes out of us in our individual personalities.

Like the flowers of the field. Christ in me; my nature, Christ comming out of me, my personality. We truly do live by the Faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex


Quote:

"SCRIPTURE: "God's love...through the Holy Spirit" (Rom 5:5)

WRONG CONCEPT: I will not love. The Holy Spirit will give them God's love.
RIGHT CONCEPT: I will love them as the Holy Spirit has shown me God's love. (As you receive God's love you make a choice to love).

PRINCIPLE: To love is a choice. We choose to love as God has loved us."

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Mat 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


S
sermonindex

1 John 4
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we MIGHT LIVE THROUGH HIM.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time.

If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


That little word 'if' has large consequences.

IF we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby KNOW we that we dwell in him, and he in us, BECAUSE he hath given us of HIS Spirit.

14 AND we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.


When I first saw what John is saying in the above verses, I was tremendously comforted by the realisation that IF I loved others, God would endorse me by pouring in His Spirit, (again) by which I would KNOW that I dwell in Him and He in me, and this would enable me to keep testifying that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world.

v 9: In THIS was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, THAT: ~
WE - - - - - - - MIGHT [have the opportunity if we take it - ie choose to]
- L I V E ~ T H R O U G H ~ H I M.

S
sermonindex

Praise GOD. His WORD is Good!

Last night, Alive-to-GOD, these verses also 'blew me away', as they say. Moved me deeply. Especially verse 3:19. I don't know how long I meditated on just that one verse but it's truly the bottomline or as they say - "Keeps the main thing, the main thing." Somewhere on this thread is posted twice, a major number of His Words on this topic. HIS WORD is truly Alive!

It is very and virtually amazing when one dwells on just vs 19, in it's context here -

Eph 3:16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His Glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,

being rooted and grounded in love,

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge,

* that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Eph 3:20 Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Eph 3:21 Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Thank you for keeping 'the main thing the main thing'.

S
sermonindex

Amen, the Main thing is still and always will be The Main thing. Nothing on earth or no one on earth can take away from Who He is.

We do though.

Why do I love Corrie Ten Boom? Because she learned and then taught The Main thing and things.
I believe she was sent "for such a time as this" - for us - for what's coming.

IF a person doesn't learn the main thing = His Love - they won't have any easy time of it in our future - if they make it through at all.

I'm taking prophetic liberties from here on out and have to say it like I've seen it - that there are three specific Doctrines held by some that will make it all but unbearable in the days ahead and will determine whether they make it at all.

Eschatology - Soteriology and their Christology.

Not necessarily in that order and not all of those who call themselves by HIS Name wrest all three. Some only one of the three but nevertheless, it will hinder growth and risk their "remaining faithful unto the end."

Actually, should also throw in the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, as we have drifted so far from preaching on the absolute need for the Baptism of His Spirit in the Church.
We've excepted anyone's preaching, despite that some leave off these things or twist them beyond what is written plainly enough in His Word. We show His Word No Reverence when we give our ears to mere men and the expense of His Word.

How long would the Apostle Paul or John listen to the majority that we hear these days who have left off any of these essential doctrines???

No, we are not a "Sola Scriptura Church" and haven't been for nearly 2000 years.

We have totally neglected John 16:13 and have followed men as our sole teachers - thus have Grieved His Holy Spirit of Truth exceedingly and have caused "Truth" to become beyond recognition to the masses.
Woe is us!

And we expect to make it through the last days in this condition? With this much compromise? Throwing out the Spirit of Truth and His WORD - our only weapons of warfare and Strength of spirit. I truly fear that those we put the most confidence in may be our utter down-fall in these last days. GOD help us to return to HIM.

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