Praising Jesus for that 39 page KJV thread

Dear WS and all,

I believe we are living in the age of the Diminishing of the Absolute.

When I was saved in the 70s, it was glorious. I took one step of faith and found myself in a dimension that I never knew existed. Old things passed away... I was a new creation in Christ. And it was always only one step away from me. The "Word is nigh thee".

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

I never knew anything about Christianity or God's Word, but when I believed in my early 20s, I entered the Promise Land. And I was taught by the Lord that His Word is perfect. Not the ancient manuscripts, but the Word I held in my hand and read everyday. His Word to my heart.

I had never known about the KJV controversy until my 30th year in the Lord. To be specific, I never concerned myself with it. I always read and loved the KJV. I was given a Scofield Bible when I first got saved and chucked it a few years later because of all of his "notes" and got myself another KJV. I also had an NIV, NASB, LB and Amplified.

Someone sent me Gail Riplinger's book, New Age Bible Versions, and after reading it, the veil was pulled back and I realized what the controversy that I stayed away from was all about. Imperfect as Gail is (and we all are) she sounded a clarion call and red alert about something that was taking place that many of us knew nothing about.

I was astounded. I guess I always just trusted too many voices way too much. Anyway, I won't get into that because the KJV thread that WS talks about covers the bases.

But, just wanted to say, that when I found out the importance of YE and Thee, I fell in love with the God's Word in the KJV all over again. I realized then, how very special the KJV was. It is unlike any other. To be sure, my love is for the Lord and I am not a word idolater, a phrase that some have coined. I can understand why.

But, just wanted to share that for the bulk of my walk with the Lord, I was pretty much oblivious to this heated subject. New Age Bible Versions was was the first one I read and since then have done a lot of research and a lot of reading.

This is a little of my testimony on this subject, and it is not meant to turn into another debate. You can't really debate a testimony and you are more than free to disagree with my opinion.

Bless you all,
777

P.S. The Diminishing of the Absolute is happening on many different levels in Christendom, not just with God's Word.

Here you go, Wayneman. This will help.
http://www.sovereignword.org/index.php/will-kinneys-king-james-bible-defense-articles/145-why-qthouq-and-qyeq-are-more-accurate-and-should-be-retained

Don't mind at all, WS. I just matched the links.

777

Whitestone

Remember Ye is just a plural form of address, you must also read it in context. The message was given to the Smyrna church. The "Ye" of

Do not fear what Ye are about to suffer Rev 2:10

makes clear that although the message was addressed to "the angel of the church in Smyrna" Rev 2:8 (a singular person), the message applies to the (the plural persons) of the Smyrna church.

Correct me if I am wrong, WS, but isn't what Andie says, your point, also?

Anonymous777

If you read Whitestones post you can see that she indicated "Ye" meant "all saints" in Rev 2:10.

What I have said is that she has not put the "Ye" into context. In context it means "the Smyrna church" not "the worldwide church throughout history".

Are you able to see the distinction now anonymous?

To make any sense of Jesus Christ's instruction to John to 'write' to these churches, it has to be understood that 'angel' means MESSENGER. In this case, the letter would be most likely addressed to a recognised elder, so he would be included in the 'ye' of the text.

This is, I believe, important to understand. The elder would not have been exempt from the exhortations to repent and return to a former condition of heart. Where the correction of individuals was required, he and the other elders would be the ones to try to bring it about if possible.

The only other explanation of 'messenger', is the possibility that the person who delivered the letter would also read it to the assembly. (We know that John was in exile at the time, so he could not have delivered them personally.) In this way also, the elders would be included as equally eligible to be corrected by the message.

I have no idea if this [Edit] second thought [end edit] is likely, but I also wonder whether John would have dictated the words to a scribe, whom we could sure (therefore) would also be able to read.

it means "the Smyrna church" not "the worldwide church throughout history".

However, parts of all the letters to the seven churches could become relevant to different individual churches down through church history. For instance, the message to the church at Laodicea is most relevant in respect of materialism today.

Alive to God,

It is a separate issue. I an simply saying that "Ye" is used to address more than than one person. Nothing more and nothing less.

Hi andie,

I'm guessing that your post to me was in respect of my first post in the thread. There I was addressing your post from p1, where you distinguished the singular from the plural.

Remember Ye is just a plural form of address, you must also read it in context. The message was given to the Smyrna church. The "Ye" of Do not fear what Ye are about to suffer Rev 2:10 makes clear that although the message was addressed to "the angel of the church in Smyrna" Rev 2:8 (a singular person), the message applies to the (the plural persons) of the Smyrna church.

My second post addressed the relevance of the letters to the church worldwide. Indeed there is an historical, factual truth about what Jesus asked John to communicate, but, the eternal Spirit - the I AM - is always in the present tense, and this is what White_Stone has experienced in the present tense. Amen.

Exactly, AtG.

The Spirit (God), speaks to all men for all ages.

It's not a "history" book.

777

P.S. I don't think anyone is attacking, just trying to understand and AtG assisted very nicely. God's Words are eternal words for all men in all ages, therefore the Holy Spirit personalized His Word to us.

Another example how a small change can take the Living Word and turn it into a history book.

I also believe Gods word speaks to all people in all ages.

quote anonymous777...another example of how a small change can take the Living Word and turn it into a history book.

Anonymous777 the word Ye and thou refer to either a plural or singular address respectfully. Can you please explain to me how the modern versions have altered the meaning of the passage Whitestone quoted at the start of this thread and turned the living word into a history book as you have quoted.

It would help if you stick to the above mentioned passage and were specific.

Hi White_Stone,

I can see my original post was not as crystal clear to others as it was to me.

What I meant is (as it wasn't as clear as I thought at the time I wrote it), is: 'to the angel', includes 'the angel' as one also hearing the message, being a member of the assembly to whom it was addressed.

I hope that's clearer. I fully accept the basic thee/thou - you/ye singular - plural.

Alive to God and Whitestone,

I do understand what you are trying to say, how the word of God relates in some way to all of us.

I just strongly oppose Anonymous777 theory that the KJB has special properties that make it the only acceptable bible.

On the particular issue of addressing in the singular versus the plural, in Hebrew of course this is done, and I have found it interesting to note the significance of it when I studied Genesis. When God spoke to ONE person but used a plural form of 'you' (I noticed this using a Hebrew/ English interlinear bible).

The fact is though is not all languages are the same, and in modern english, we don't this distinction. The translators work faithfully to convey the meaning accurately in many languages, and I for one commend them for their efforts. Each version has strengths and weaknesses. As someone who speaks English only, I am just thankful for the choice of versions we have.

Wrong Andy,

I know there are many Bibles that have been faithfully translated.

Reina-Valera Gomez is also a faithful translation.

Andy, my comment on the "history" book was referring to the broader implications of tampering with God's Word.

No anonymous777 you said in this thread which relates to a particular passage that it was "another example" of how this has been done, could you please explain this, or retract your statement about this.

Apologies for not realizing that your hold another bible as being correct.

Andie,

Sorry for the delay. I am traveling this weekend and only have my phone. Consequently, my replies have been short, and possibly not explanatory enough. Tomorrow afternoon I will be at a keyboard.

Blessings,
777

On the particular issue of addressing in the singular versus the plural, in Hebrew of course this is done, and I have found it interesting to note the significance of it when I studied Genesis. When God spoke to ONE person but used a plural form of 'you' (I noticed this using a Hebrew/ English interlinear bible).

When this happens, it is usually because the person is a mouthpiece for God to the people - in the role of a prophet - such as Moses (who had resisted God until He gave permission for Aaron to be his mouthpiece to the people).

Would this make sense in the context you noticed it?

Alive to God,

I can't remember the exact context offhand. I'll have a look later and perhaps give an example.

Thanks, andie.

I had a look through, and it is when God establishes his convenant with Abraham. In most of the verses God refers to Abraham with the singular you, but in verse 17:10 and 11 he switches to the plural. I don't think it is very significant to be honest looking back at it.

10"(A)This is My covenant, which YOU shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

And (B)YOU shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

The you's in caps are plurals, I guess referring all the convenant people.

Hi andie,

This is a good example, showing Abraham's role in conveying his hearing from God both for himself and his descendants.

Here is it in the KJV, beginning in the verse before, which helps to give it context.

Genesis 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

I am thinking that - particularly after the wilderness when circumcision lapsed - the use of the plural removes any possibility of Jacob's children thinking it didn't need to apply to them. This is assisted by began with 'you and your' in v 9, 'you and your' v 10.

There is also an important connection being made between God and subsequent male descendants of Abraham, individually, as you said, the 'covenant people'.

Anonymous777 the word Ye and thou refer to either a plural or singular address respectfully. Can you please explain to me how the modern versions have altered the meaning of the passage Whitestone quoted at the start of this thread and turned the living word into a history book as you have quoted.

Yes, we see that the Angel was being addressed and the entire church of Smyrna was being included. But, if this alone was the application, then it would be a history book.

Using the plural pronoun YE is more faithful to the original text which used plural pronouns.

I am only saying that a little change here and a little change there, from version to version and eventually you have a history book, (in letter only), of course, that applies ONLY to people in the past. It becomes more of a struggle for the reader. Of course, only the Holy Spirit can really apply the Word of God to us personally, but we should not make the understanding of God's Word a struggle by changing or omitting meaningful words.

The King James translators correctly used these words because it is Biblical language that more accurately expresses the thoughts of God in inspired Scripture.

Not only does the King James Bible use "thy" and "thee" and "ye" but so also do Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops' Bible, the Geneva Bible, John Wesley's New Testament, the Revised Version of 1881, Webster's translation, the American Standard Version 1901, the Jewish translations of 1917, 1936, the Douay version 1950, Young's, Darby's, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

Even the RSV of 1952 and the NASB from 1960 to 1977 used "thee" and "thou" when addressing God in prayer, though the words "thee" and "thou" are not just used to show reverence for God, but rather express the second person singular of anyone, including the devil himself. The NASB, RSV both say in John 17:2 " THOU HAST given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom THOU HAST given him." But then in 1995 the NASB changed their texts again and now employ the generic "You". So were "thou" and "thee" not archaic in 1977, but then became so in the next few years?

Instead of "violating accuracy in translation", the fact is the use of such pronouns is FAR MORE accurate to the Hebrew and Greek languages than the generic "you" for both singular and plural.

Most languages have a singular and a plural form of the second person - the person being spoken to - "you". There is the singular "you" and then there is the plural, like "you all". This is found in the Hebrew and Greek languages as well as Spanish, French, Italian and many other world languages.

That is why "archaic" language is not always a bad thing?
They are actually more accurate than the modernized, generic "you" as found in the NKJV, NIV, NASB, Holman, and ESV?

The use of "thou" and "ye" may be "archaic" because we don't speak this way today, but it is far more accurate and reflects the Hebrew and the Greek languages that underlie the King James text. In fact, not even in 1611 did they speak this way. Read the preface to the KJB and you will see they did not use the "thee"s and "ye"s as they are found in the Scriptures.

The second person singular pronouns in English had largely passed from the language by the time of the writing of the AV. Thus it was "archaic" then as well. So getting rid of it because it is "archaic" is ridiculous, because it was archaic in the first place. The important thing is not whether the word is archaic (for goodness sake, they can look it up in a dictionary or ask someone else who knows) but whether the word is the correct translation. It is, so use it.

The popular NIV introduction erects a strawman argument and gives misleading information regarding the use of "thou" "thee" and "thine". On page xviii of my NIV Scofield edition, the editors state:

"As for the traditional pronouns "thou" "thee" and "thine" in reference to the Deity, the translators judged that to use these archaisms, along with the old verb forms such as "doest", "wouldest" and "hadst" would violate accuracy in translation. Neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek uses special pronouns for the persons of the Godhead."

To put it kindly, this NIV introduction is pure baloney. First of all, the use of the words thou, thee, and thine are not used only in reference to Deity. They express the Hebrew and Greek singular "you" as opposed to the plural "you" which is rendered as "you", "ye" and "your". Thou, thee and thine are used not only when addressing God but also when speaking to the common man and even to the devil himself. "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get THEE hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

Secondly, instead of "violating accuracy in translation", the fact is the use of such pronouns is FAR MORE accurate to the Hebrew and Greek languages than the generic "you" for both singular and plural.

In English this distinction is expressed by "Thou" meaning "you singular, and you alone" and "Ye" meaning "all of you, plural". This distinction makes a big difference in hundreds of passages in the Bible.

For instance, in Luke 22:31-32 the Lord says to Peter: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have YOU, that he may sift YOU as wheat: But I have prayed for THEE, that THY faith fail not: and when THOU art converted, strengthen THY brethren."

Here the word YOU is plural in both the Greek and the English, meaning Satan was going to sift all of the disciples, "you all"; but Jesus is letting Peter know that He had prayed for him (thee) specifically as an individual.

In John chapter four, the Samaritan woman at the well is speaking to Jesus and says: "Sir, I perceive that THOU art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and YE say (all you Jews) that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

Then the Lord says to this individual: "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when YE shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. YE worship YE know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews." Here the YE means "all of you who are Samaritans", not just the individual woman to whom He was speaking.

One of many cases where a lot of confusion is caused by not following the "ye" and "thee" pattern is seen in Jeremiah 5:14. In Jeremiah 5:13-14 the Lord says: "And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them. Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because YE speak this word, behold, I will make my words in THY mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

God is referring to the false prophets when He says "because YE speak this word" but He is talking to Jeremiah, the true prophet, when He says "I will make my words in THY mouth fire".

The confusion is seen in such versions as the NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV. The NKJV says: "Because YOU speak this word, Behold, I will make my words in YOUR mouth fire."

Another among many verses that are cleared up by recognizing this difference between Thee and You is found in Acts 13:34. Here Peter is preaching in a synagogue about Christ, the Son of God. Peter says: "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give YOU the sure mercies of David."

If you neglect this distinction between Thee and You, one would naturally think God is saying to the risen Christ "I will give YOU the sure mercies of David." But He isn't referring to Christ. God is speaking to all HIS PEOPLE - YOU.

One more of hundreds of such examples that could be given shows this important distinction between "thee" (an individual) and "you" meaning "you all". The young shepherd David had gone out to meet Goliath the Philistine and he was speaking to one individual, the giant. David says to him: "THOU comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield, but I come to THEE in the name of the LORD..for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give YOU into our hands." David was not just telling Goliath that God would deliver him up, but ALL the Philistines as well - "you all".

A simple rule of thumb is if the word begins with a T, as in thou, thy, thee, and thine, then it is singular; and if it begins with a Y, as in you, your, and ye, then it is plural, meaning "you all".

In 2 Samuel 7:23 we read part of king David's prayer: "An what nation in the earth is like THY people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for YOU great things and terrible, for THY land, before THY people, which THOU redeemedst to THEE from Egypt."

Here David prays to God in the second person singular, but refers to the people of Israel as YOU. What confusion can result if this distinction in proper pronouns is removed? It could incorrectly be thought that David was praying in part to the nation, or that the land belonged to the people instead of to God.

Once you realize there is an important difference between "thou" and "ye" that exists in the English language as well as the Greek and Hebrew, then many passages are cleared up and more light is shed on the true meaning of the Holy Bible.

The King James Bible is more precise and accurate with its use of "thou" and "ye". When you "update and modernize" these "archaic" words to the generic "you", you do so at the expense of sacrificing an important distinction God has placed in His inspired words.

777

I don't think not distinguishing between the plural you's and singular you's in the passages alters the meaning though. It says clearly the covenant is for Abraham AND his decendants.

God confused the lanuage of all the earth and scattered them over all the face of the earth in Babel. At Pentecost the Apostles were able to preach the gospel under the power of the holy spirit to Jews from every nation under heaven.

I have faith God has not now restricted himself to medieval English and Spanish.

Of course, I understand. God does not care about the meanings of the words in His Word and is cool with the Bible changing with the vernacular of the changing times and culture. Makes complete sense to me.

Can't wait for the "Text Message" Bible. OMG, LOL

I think I would rather learn the few "archaic" words than have to go to night school to learn "gangster" and "rap" language.

Did you know that OMG and LOL were officially entered into Webster's Dictionary this year.

Are these really ridiculous statements in light of the Bibles we have today? Green Bible, Inclusive Bible, Homosexual friendly Bible, Gender Neutral Bible, PETA wants an Animal Friendly Bible, ad nauseum.

Anonymous777,

You are confusing two separate issues:

Q) Does the use of 'you' in the passage make us think it is addressed to only one person ( the historical thee)?

A) No, because although he says the message is to the angel of the Smyrna (one person or being, I imagine a heavenly angel personally here), the passage written indicates more than one person.

ie " some of you" will be thrown into prison.

"whoever conquer will not be harmed"

Q) Should the you be correctly translated as "you all"?

A) It could be, but 'you' can be used as a singular or plural address, depending on the context in which it is used.

Q) So does the use of "Ye" make the passage refer to " all saints" more than the 'inferred' plural 'you' used instead?

A) No, the word 'Ye' does not have any special spiritual properties in itself. It would depend rather on their method of interpretation. Personally I see scripture as having a real historical context.

Eg Every time Jesus addressed a crowd as "Ye" although the message is often meant to be applied to all of us, he historically was addressing a group of real people in real history.

I stated this:

"Here the word YOU is plural in both the Greek and the English, meaning Satan was going to sift all of the disciples, "you all"; but Jesus is letting Peter know that He had prayed for him (thee) specifically as an individual. "

You and Ye are plural.

Before we look at another passage, it may be helpful to finish our discussion on the original one brought up at the start of the thread. What is your response to my last post?

I believe that the Holy Spirit is addressing the entire Church down through the ages when "ye" is used.

Or addressing all Pharisees down through the ages when "ye" is used.

Just for the record, here is the letter to the church at Smyrna from the KJV (AV) King James Version = Authorised Version (because its production had been 'authorised' by King James I and VI).

Revelation 2
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Interesting. It is almost as if Jesus is speaking to the church as if it is one man - one lampstand - represented by the messenger.

This would go well with Ephesians 4: 1 - 16.

Interesting. It is almost as if Jesus is speaking to the church as if it is one man - one lampstand - represented by the messenger.

I will demonstrate later how the lack of "ye" and "thee" can alter doctrine.

They are special words!

Right now, got a 4 hour drive ahead of me.

777

Ok I understand what you mean now. You can used as a plural in KJB, whereas we use it now as a singular and plural address.

I agree that it makes it clearer where it addressed the Smyrna church as a singular unit through the angel, and where it referred to the you and Ye plural members of the church.

I still don't see how you have jumped from Ye referring to more than one person, to it meaning the entire church throughout history.

You and Ye ate both 2nd person plurals, eg like 'I' is to 'me'. The use depends on the context of the sentence.

How has ye moved to referring to 'the entire church throughout history, when the you's in modern versions ( which I have demonstrated is also a plural in this case), has made the modern versions like history books?

Incidently they doing a reading through the KJB over Easter at Shakespeares Globe theatre in London. I'm going three performances, very exciting!

Hi andie,

Just to comment on your trips to the Globe, please share afterwards what they were like.

I remember vividly the first time I heard someone read out a chapter and a half of scripture, and KNEW without any doubt at all, that they read with complete understanding - so much so that I now understood the passage too. I was awestruck! And set out to try to gain that kind of grasp of scripture reading. (Not as easy as it sounds.)

There is a big difference, I believe, between some readings of scripture and others, solely down to the person reading knowing the Lord, and this is different from a sympathetic acting-out the narrative with other competent actors (but who don't know Him).

Ok I understand what you mean now. You can used as a plural in KJB, whereas we use it now as a singular and plural address.

I still don't see how you have jumped from Ye referring to more than one person, to it meaning the entire church throughout history.

I don't think a777 or W_S or me are saying it ALWAYS applies to EVERYONE in the Church throughout ALL history, but, what happened to W_S and why she started this thread, is that as she read that portion, she became vitally connected to the scenario described because of the enlivening (quickening) brought to it by the (eternally 'now') Holy Spirit in her, in her life today, in the twenty-first century AD.

'I [W_S] said to my husband how empowering that would be to hear should one be imprisoned for the Word. Then I noticed it said 'ye!' Praise Jesus, he was speaking to me and you.

The time is coming, get ready. . . Store your treasures in Heaven not on earth.'

Anonymous777 I believe that the holy spirit is addressing the entire church down through the ages when ye is used

Alive-to-God. I don't think a777 or W-S or me are saying it ALWAYS applies to EVERYONE in the church throughout ALL history

I guess we will have to await anonymous777's explanation.

I guess we will have to await anonymous777's explanation.

Of course, it depends on what is being said.

Gen 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

:-)

Well I really don't think there is anything else to say. You have offered nothing in this thread to back up your claim that the change of the 'ye' to the modern you in current versions alters the meaning, in the passage Whitestone posted.

All I can gather from our discussion is that you believe that "ye" refers to the whole church (except when you decide it doesn't)?

I guess we will have to await anonymous777's explanation.

The best way I've heard this phenomenon explained, is to think of the word of God - especially the way it sometimes comes from another person, or when praying for direction or help or through prophecy (charismatic gift of), including the written word - as a box of matches.

They are all there ready to use, but they aren't all relevant all of the time. Sometimes you have the word before you need it, and sometimes you have to go looking for it, but not until you NEED it, do you put the word together with the situation at hand, and realise what that word (match) was for. That's when you strike it - or rather, when it strikes you, with extra PERSONAL insight from God.

Is this clearer?

Ye refers to the whole church, when it refers to the whole church.

I like AtG's explanation. Don't You?

ATG, you are confusing the issues. I am not doubting the holy spirits work illuminating the scriptures.

Anyway I REALLY have to opt out now, we are going around in circles and I have stuff to do.

ATG, you are confusing the issues. I am not doubting the holy spirits work illuminating the scriptures.

For instance, a777 quoted the verse which Lamech is speaking, somewhat facetiously (no offence, bro!) but there is a genuine point there, in that those are the words of a man.

However, God's word to Abraham for succeeding generations to be circumcised, is now 'history'. Since then - since the New Covenant and Pentecost - circumcision of the foreskin has been replaced by circumcision of the foreskin OF THE HEART - a spiritual event. NOW, the 'ye' in Gen 17:10 does NOT apply to the whole Church today.

The New Testament, though, can be relevant to a saint today.

For instance, although the simple narrative of Acts is only a record of the missionary expeditions made by certain early apostles, it is packed with spiritual and practical insight as to how a Christian should expect to walk in the Spirit, and what that may mean in practical terms - for instance of the physical and psychological difficulties which God may allow.

I looked back to your original post, where you said:

What I have said is that she [W_S] has not put the "Ye" into context. In context it means "the Smyrna church" not "the worldwide church throughout history".

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Hi Andie,

Thanks to Whitestone, I think I understand, now. So sorry, I seem to be so thickheaded.

What she says, is that you would like some more examples where changing the pronouns could possible render the Bible a history book. Is this what you want? A few more examples?

Thanks, and again sorry for the confusion.

Again, AtG's latest response brings clarity to what I am trying to say.

777

God bless you white stone.....i think its up to 45 pages now, and i dont know if i'm thanking God for it so much anymore

Andie,

Here is a verse that I think is for the church for all ages.

Of course it can be construed as only my opinion and like anything, can be debated, especially by the Cessationists.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

If it is changed to "you", then it is only for the people back then, and hence a nice history book.

Kind regards,
777

Here is another one, maybe it is a better example.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This applies to all men for all time and it applies to the ones that physically did the act.

and this:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.