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Repentance and baptism-salvation

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DEADn

I was in a discussion with a man at work about salvation. He began picking my brain by asking me what salvation was. I told it it was believing in the Gospel of Jesus, repenting and being baptized. He then focused on the baptism thing.
I know why he did this, he belongs to the church of Christ denomination and so there is agenda with it as a result.

Anyway, he focused on certain scriptures where it was said 'so and so believed and was baptized........for the remission of sins..' I told him that baptism itself doesn't save it, it is an outward work of an inside thing. He said there is nowhere in the bible that it states that. We only focused on scriptures that be brung up which was Mark 16 and some in the book of Acts. His emphasis on this was that without baptism you cannot be saved. I could not prove to him then that that wasn't true. It did get me thinking about it.

Can anyone add to this? btw, we don't argue over it. If I find my conversation getting to that point I stop it and walk away because the dialogue will be unproductive.

Thanks
John

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sermonindex


HI Deadn. This topic is another that's been discussed here quite a bit. It may help to use the Search engine to find the threads on it as well.

Blessings!

T
therick2018

@ DEADn

Did you ask him if the penitant thief on the cross was baptized?

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DEADn

therick

I did bring that up but he didn't want to hear that. He kept going back to what Jesus said and what those who beleived did after they believed-they were baptized.

I told him that it wasn't baptism that saved his soul but he said you cannot have one without the other.
I am going to do a little study on this myself. There is something there that almost doesn't seem right but I don't know what it is.

Today I read an article from VOM about a group of North Korean christian who were visited by a pastor. They said they had waited years for someone to come and baptize them. THis supports the book of Acts but my question is if you lack baptism does it mean your soul is still lost? I don't believe it does but what does the bible say? My opinion doesn't count on this matter unless I can back it up.

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sermonindex

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Did not say "that he that is baptized not", only "he that believeth not".

You won't find this verse in many modern versions.

Anyway, the preponderance of scripture supports what the thief on the cross did. He believed Jesus.

Romans 3:26
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:20
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Romans 4:23

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Romans 4:24-25
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1

Chapter 5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

A777

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DEADn

Anonymous777

Yes, yes, yes!!!
I am thinking that the only problem this guy might have is that this comes from the book of Romans vs the 4 gospels and the book of Acts. He goes back to what Jesus said about believing.

THat verse in Mark was brough up and I actually brought that up as well that belief is mentioned but it says nothing about condemnation without baptism.

This will be a fun conversation of learning.

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therick2018

Isn't there a difference between inner and outward baptism? One is the work of God's Spirit, the other an outward symbolism. Inner baptism takes place upon conversion by salvation by grace through faith alone.

Is Jesus ultimately talking about inner baptism here in John 3? I want to be careful, but i think this is true.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OT Reference of the work of regeneration

Eze 36:25 I (God) will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Is not inner baptism the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, when a person places saving faith in Jesus Christ, in all that He is, His righteousness, blood, propitiation,life death and resurrection, Prophet, Priest, King all that He is. This work changes the heart, it makes new, cleanses, washes. Signifys the death of self and the new life of Christ.

I definately believe a christian should be outwardly baptized as well but it isn't the saving factor. Anyone can pour water on a person, but on the Holy Spirit can make a dead, sinful heart alive and pure! I don't know why anyone who has been saved wouldn't want to be outwardly baptized as a symbol of what has happened in the soul. But I also know that there are many who have be outwardly baptized who live just like the world.

D
DEADn

Therick


I hear what you are saying and I agree. The issue here is not baptism by itself. It is being baptised after a person believes. The moment a person believes but for whatever reason he never got baptized, does God still save his soul even though he never followed through in baptism? Can you have one without the other or do both depend upon each other?

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sermonindex


Here (second post on the linked page), is an article by Phil Goble explaining the origins and connections of baptism.

The early church took it very seriously, because it was full of real issues which God had spoken about previously - through John the Baptist. Until John, Jews had never been required to be washed from their sins, but now God was clearly calling them as unclean as Gentiles, despite circumcision. I was interested that the early church saw baptism as a SIGN that one had a clean heart and therefore, one was now fit to break bread with other believers.


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35739&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0

but remember Jesus said 'Now ye are clean through the word I have spoken unto you'. John 15:3.

L
learjet

oh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I heard a brother who had revelation on this scripture, it's not about baptism at all. At first I didn't understand what he was saying but the more that I studied it and prayed about the revelation, the more that I learned that it was true.

When a woman goes into labor, her water breaks and the baby is born thus 'born of water'.

When a man is born again, he is born again in the Spirit and regenerated. If you reread what Jesus said, along with what He said to the thief on the cross it is the only way that it don't contradict each other.

This put an end to all of the contradictions regarding baptism for me, I was really thankful that he took the time to explain it so that I could gain an understanding.

L
lylewise

I have two family members who are COC. A few things I have gathered from our conversations:

They do consider baptism a necessity for salvation. At baptism there is the imparting of the H.S. into the life of the believer.

On the other hand their understanding of being born again is purely more of an agreement of truths in scripture. This is not relegated only to the COC but to men in just about every church there is (the majority)(knowledge without conversion). There are those who affirm truths and try to live rightly but sadly apart from spiritual rebirth.

The H.S. is bound to the pages!

If you were to talk of regeneration you would see their eyes glaze over because their salvation is by knowledge and good works. They may not admit it but if one truly studies what they profess their is no testimony apart from a cleaning up of the self and a greater attendence to their church and the reading of scripture. Not bad in itself but also not salvific.

You will talk of doctrines always directed by them, and never partake of the love of Christ in your conversations. (my experience)

They believe man innocent from birth and corrupted by experience in the world.

Forgive me if my take on some of these things are not totally accurate, but I have not made it my life's work to study the COC. These are mere observations. Study without life, prayer without life, fellowship without life. Like the Mormans some things about them seem wholesome but where is the life, the love, and the excitement?

One of their great goals is to bring men to their knowledge but it is knowledge without life. It is the most sad of estates, to have the truth within your grasp and to know something about it, but to never experience it internally.

Toward the end of "What think ye of Christ" Tozer's sinking ship analogy speaks to this so well. It is salvation by intellect which is no salvation at all.

D
DEADn

lylewise

Yes, I agree with your words. A while back I did some studies on different christian groups to see what they belief systems were. CoC was one of them.

My experience with this man was just as you said, it wasn't necessarily an Holy experience, it is agenda. I say thing becuase he was insitant on 'certain' scriptures to show his point. His next agenda is who is the true church. Usually this ia a cult type of attitude.

To counteract his agenda scriptures must be show of what salvation is and the fellowship that is with it and not just stay to the formula of believe and be baptized.

I can tell you for my personal observation of the man that he doesn't live in a state of gratefulness. He complains alot about his job. Most people know he is a big believer in God but many times his actions aren't that different from anybody else who seems disgruntled about work.

I told this man that when you examine the scripture it is wrong to just take a scripture as well you. got ask the interrogative questions to find out the real meaning and he jumped up to agree with that. He is only focused right now on those who were saved in the bible, what did they do-----the believed and were baptized. Can't have one without the other.

These things are fun to discuss as long as the discussion doesn't get flesh and pride involved. It is nice when the Holy Spirit 2 hearst together as kin in the Spirt as well.

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DEADn

I heard a brother who had revelation on this scripture, it's not about baptism at all. At first I didn't understand what he was saying but the more that I studied it and prayed about the revelation, the more that I learned that it was true.
When a woman goes into labor, her water breaks and the baby is born thus 'born of water'.

When a man is born again, he is born again in the Spirit and regenerated. If you reread what Jesus said, along with what He said to the thief on the cross it is the only way that it don't contradict each other.


When a woman goes into labor, her water breaks and the baby is born thus 'born of water'


---- I accepted this at one time as well because it seemed to make sense but is this what the 'born of water' is referring to?

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lylewise

I don't think a true testimony from one who has come out of this would be much different from one who has come out of Judaism, Mormonism, JW's, or lifeless churchism.

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learjet

You will talk of doctrines always directed by them, and never partake of the love of Christ in your conversations. (my experience)

Lyle,

Precious brother, this has been my experience as well, sadly.

Additionally, I've noticed that if a person is argumentative it's fruitless to even talk to them. The Holy Spirit impressed on my heart a long time ago the point that we cannot 'debate someone into salvation' so I don't waste the precious minutes that God gave me on Earth arguing with them... :-)

In the end all I accomplished was losing my peace, now I just keep my peace and quit talking to them about doctrine. Unless the Holy Spirit convicts them, all of my arguing is for nothing. :-)

Peace to you!

T
therick2018

@ DEADn

does God still save his soul even though he never followed through in baptism? Can you have one without the other or do both depend upon each other?

I would completely agree with you that physical baptism is not saving at all, only the regeneration of God by the Spirit is saving to the soul. And that is a truth that has been so forgotten and unpreached causing untold damage :(


However I do believe that any genuine christian will have a desire to be physically baptized with water when they are given assurance of their salvation by God's Spirit. The thief on the cross and new converts who die before they are baptized outwardly will see Jesus in Paradise absolutely. But why would any believer linger for a long time on purpose if they have the opportunity to be baptized? I see it an outward symbol of an inner change and what follower of Jesus wouldn't want to express that? It would seem to me that outward baptism follows the inner baptism because it is a fruit of it. As all good deeds and fruits produced in a christian's life are rooted in free grace so is physical baptism is only legit by depending soley upon the inward, saving baptism of the Spirit.


Just like many people trust in their own works and righteousness instead of Christ, many people trust in the fact that they once were baptized rather than did I become a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Just thoughts, What to you all think?

btw what is CoC??

T
twayneb

DEADn: It is not so important that you be able to dispute with this man or refute his arguments. The old saying, "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" is very true. What is important is that you know the truth of the Word for yourself and are fully convinced of it.

One of the best scriptures dealing with true salvation is the 6th chapter of the book of Romans.

Rom 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not talking about the rite of water baptism, but is talking about the reality of which water baptism is a picture. This is the true baptism into the death of Christ and the true resurrection into newness of life. It is the reality of this death and resurrection that constitutes the rebirth and that makes us truly alive unto God through Christ Jesus. It is this reality that gives us victory over sin through the grace of God. We are to reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God.

I have found that often this reality is so impressed upon the heart of man during the rite of baptism that people are changed forever and never the same after being baptized in water. Water baptism is in this sense much more than just an outward sign of an inward work. There can be and usually is a realization in the heart of man of the reality of salvation through this act. This is why it is, I believe, vitally important that we follow Christ in water baptism. But the picture of the reality, as powerful as it may be, cannot be used as a substitute for the reality itself. Otherwise we have simply taken a public bath. The reality must already be present for the picture to have full effect upon the heart of a believer.

By all means be baptized in water, but not so that you might be saved. Rather because you ARE saved.

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learjet

COC = Church of Christ :-)

M
mguldner

I may be able to help on this, I studied quite a lot on this topic because I have a friend that is COC and while we don't always agree we can agree we both need Christ Jesus.

Baptism in the simpliest sense means immersed, I agree with Learjet on this and found in studying "born of water" was not refering to baptism. Christ Jesus is contrasting the two being Born in the Flesh (Natural) to being Born in the Spirit (SuperNatural/Spiritual). When we are born again we are baptised/Immersed in the SPirit of Christ, and how are we born again? By faith and believing in Christ, Not of works but by grace you have been saved lest any man should boast. I will also say the Spirit Christ baptises us in is according to His Spirit which is one of Holiness and Love. When we read and they were baptising people in Acts, we can look at it as They were immersing the people that believed in Christ Love as Christ Immersed them in His Love. Also there are ZERO records of Christ water baptising ANYONE.

Yet another thing, Repentance is not a work of Salvation but a Work of Christ in You as soon as you believe the Good News. Your mind will just change as a result and in turn so will your lifestyle change. Ask your friend how he was Born Again, and you will find he will say many things to list off what he did. Did you know there is no record of the disciples being baptised other than Spiritual ones? What did they do to received this? Believed in Christ! Everything else follows suit as Christ begins to Work in you.

From my experience speaking with my friend COC are quite stubborn in theology and doctrine but hey who isn't? :) Keep at it as long as the conversation is profitable but also don't waste time running around the malberry bush. Hope this makes sense and is helpful.

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DEADn

mguldner

Very good post bud!

Good point on the disciples, it doesn't say that were baptized but does it matter? I will ask the guy about his salvation and share how it came to me also.

I also agree that people like him and his church are probably going to be set in their ways, after all, his 'real' agenda is that of the CoC teaching but he will not acknowlege it as that unless on accept the CoC as coming from the beginning.

Good stuff!

S
sermonindex

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.


The Names of the New Birth

Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).


Regeneration in John 3

These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).


Regeneration in the New Testament

The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV).


The Effects of Baptism

Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "[b]aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.


Protestants on Regeneration

Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism "works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe." His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody.

Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the "Evangelical" view, common among Baptists, and the "Calvinist" view, common among Presbyterians.

Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God "secretly" regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and this causes them to place their faith in Christ.

To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The absurd
implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, "You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit." A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where "water" (Greek: hudor) referred to "amniotic fluid" (VIII:314–333).

Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses.

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.

We are told that at Paul’s conversion, "he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus" (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism."

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body."

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, "Are Catholics born again?" is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?" If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he may think.


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

L
lylewise

I did not think that regeneration was of Man's will? Is this that awkward moment?

S
sermonindex

Can I suggest you read it again more carefully. It doesn't actually suggest that.

S
sermonindex

Paul Washer refers to this difference between the Catholic view of infant baptism meaning 'born again', and how difficult Catholics find it to leave the Catholic church, even after they have been truly born again by the Holy Spirit in the kind of new birth which began to occur at Pentecost.

I
InTheLight

In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

I believe that you are correct that this indicates one birth of water and spirit but you are mistaken when you associate the water with water baptism.

Jesus is speaking figuratively here just He often does throughout the Gospel of John. In the preceding chapter Jesus had said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", of course he meant His body. In the following chapter Jesus tells the woman at the well about living water, again He was speaking figuratively. So too, here He speaks figuratively of the washing of the word of God in regeneration. David, Paul, James, and Peter all wrote of this;

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. (Psalm 119:9)

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,(Ephesians 5:26)

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; (1Peter 1:23)

The emphasis of Jesus here in speaking to Nicodemus is not about a washing ceremony, it's about the absolute inability of flesh to inherit the kingdom of God. Flesh needs to be changed, it doesn't need to reform, or to turn over a new leaf, or to become more religious, or to give up something, or to try harder, because it would still be flesh. In the words of Ray Steadman, "you can baptize the flesh, capsize it, disguise it, advertise it, civilize it, simonize it, pasteurize it, but it's still the flesh, nothing changes."

Only the miracle of regeneration brings the needed change. In John 3 Jesus described the mystery of the new birth to Nicodemus by speaking of the wind ("pnuema", the same Greek word used in verse 3). The wind is sovereign, nobody directs it, and so it is with the Spirit in regeneration. If you want to have a part in the Kingdom of God you must have a part in something that will change you and you'll never be able to completely understand it. That was a tremendous challenge to Nicodemus, and to us.

In Christ,

Ron

Z
Zionshield

I enjoyed W.Nee's intrepretation of Mark 16:16 (I think it was in "A Living Sacrifice"). He said that baptism is mentioned here because salvation has to do with being saved out of the world and is different (at least in this context) from receiving eternal life which requires only belief. Also see 1 Peter 3:19-21 "eight people were saved through water...baptism, which corresponds to this..."

Noah was already a righteous man according to Gen.6:9. He walked with God. The flood did not make him righteous, it saved him out of a corrupt world system.

I go back to Romans 10:9-10 for understanding also.
"With the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation."

I believe this baptism, this confession is an identification with Jesus in opposition to the world that crucified Him...no longer identifying with it. You have eternal life before you confess or are baptised, but you must identify with Christ at the bidding of the Holy Spirit.

L
lylewise

Andie, I am confused as to what you propose. The writing sounds more a defense of baptismal regeneration. It sounds Catholic in origin? Am I that far off? Are you saying one finds life in the baptismal pool? Are you saying one could foster belief in Christ not yet being baptised (in water) then some how when walking along, slip and fall into a baptismal pool and be immediately regenerated? Is there a time frame for this regeneration if it depends on the baptismal pool? One is held from rebirth until water is found? It sounds like the usurping of God's will by controlling a miraculous act of rebirth through the hand of man. Might the bulletin state," We will have a regeneration at 6:35 pm tonight so everybody come"?

S
sermonindex

Yes I am becoming a Catholic.

I am just saying that to me scripture and the church fathers support the Catholic teaching. Now that I am aware of that, (I wasn't previously), I will follow where the truth leads.

L
lylewise

What need has a Christian to become anything but Christ like?

L
lylewise

What need has a Christian to become anything but Christ like?

S
sermonindex

When did I say that we should not become Christ like?

M
mguldner

"the church fathers support the Catholic teaching"

The Church Fathers as in Peter?, Paul? and John? also the rest of the Apostles?

These are the only "Church Fathers" I recognize and acknowledge. The Traditions of the Church are recorded in the Word of God, period. Anything added is an addition of manmade tradition, not the Traditions of the Apostles. I find it interesting that the many church traditions of the Roman Catholic church aren't even in the Scriptures nor supported by them. The Apostles didn't form the Roman Catholic Church, I posted in the "Has anyone noticed" thread and I hope and pray you at least read what I posted.

S
sermonindex

Mguldner,

That's fair enough. I see things differently, and I just wanted to share what I have learnt. I don't think we are going to agree on this so there is probably not any point discussing furthur. Things tend to go around in circles.

Of course you guys are free to keep discussing it, but I won't add any more regarding the Catholic view on baptism/born again.

Peace

L
lylewise

Andie, this weights heavy on my heart. In your defense yes, you did not use the exact words" we should not become Christ like". However, what is said in lesser terms can often speak volumes. Just as Christ in his day opposed the traditions of men that rendered salvation a discipline of works, so to would He oppose the traditions of the Catholic church (and any church for that matter that would seek to turn grace into a joint system of effort of man and God). Any religion that would result in creating distance between God and man is false. True religion is Christ and Him alone who bridges the distance and brings God to dwell with men, and in men, with no need of human arbitration. As well, any religion that would seek to make a relationship with God impersonal and removed would provoke God in as much as it is a rejection of His Son who is Mediator and Everlasting Father. The Catholic church has no monopoly on this as we see in scripture of the system that preceded it ( Judaism).

It was a great shock to me, after being regenerated, to see that traditions have found their way into protestant denominations as well. Those who are religious and who cannot accept what only God will offer on His terms are destined to bring the offering of Cain. To all churches that would seek to bind the H.S., and make less of the blood of the Son, we should pray for God's continued patience. For even He who is long suffering beyond our imaginations will not remain that way forever. Andie I will pray, and hope that others will also, that you will see the tradition that is the Catholic church. Even if it leads you into the wilderness, it is a quadrillion times better than the traditions of men. Make that 2 quadrillion and still it is not representative.

M
me234

Ron, I am not sure why anyone would need to interperate Mark 16:16. Jesus gave His Great Commission, a commandment, read it, understand it, do it.

With Him I stand,

me234

S
sermonindex

Jesus opposed the traditions of men that rendered salvation a discipline of works.

I see Jesus opposing traditions of men that rendered God's word void in Matt 15:16 - 19

They withheld support from their parents in order to give more to the temple, this meant they were violating the commandment of Exodus 20:12.

What does your statement relate to?

S
sermonindex

Hi, I'm quoting from the first line of the eighth paragraph of the statement posted by andie on p3 of this thread.

These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism
I would like to recommend this old thread for what it contributes to our understanding of being born 'from above' - that is, by immersion (baptism) in the Holy Spirit.

The Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=custom&cd=10&ved=0CEQQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sermonindex.net%2Fmodules%2Fnewbb%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D3132%26forum%3D36%26223&ei=MJOtTYu6DJOBhQfb_qWnDA&usg=AFQjCNGxXF_IGy_aCKKJrRNvYBh7cew2DQ


For your information, andie, when James uses that Greek word (anothen) it means the same as in John 3, and the other places in the New Testament are not far off 'from above'. Regarding 'new birth', another English word employed by some translators is 'anew', but 'from above' captures most meaning in one phrase. The other implications are 'from the first' or, 'from the top'.

L
lylewise

That is but one instance of Christ in opposition to tradition. Think of all the others. Does scripture not reveal and history not describe the efforts of man to obtain his own salvation apart from the grace of God? Was that not depicted in many a confrontation between Christ and the religious leaders. Theirs was not true religion as they followed law void of the Spirit and were notorious for adding unto it. I don't see your statement or mine being unrelated. As a matter of fact they are basically two ways of stating practically the same thing. Salvation by a discipline of works is to make God's word void.
One can save a dying village that has contracted a deadly disease. If in the end he is motivated by the thought that he has made himself good and and a little more acceptable to God (by his own merit), The works are dead and unless intervention occurs then so is he (or she).

In a similar vein, even one born of God can fall into temporary delusion believing that he is doing something good that can somehow add to the work of grace (earning it). It is a natural pull like a powerful magnet. It's evidence can be seen in every religion outside of Christianity. The Catholic church has made it an art form, just as the religious leaders did in Christ's day. How can that connection not be clearly seen? Even the true believer is seduced occasionally by this prideful force from the fall of man. For the true believer it's a slumber from which one is awakened abruptly when the body jumps. It is temporary and does not take much time to come to one's senses and repent for making so little of Christ's work. Not unlike Peter who was temporarily drawn back into that which was dead. It comes naturally as it is attached to pride; even when the Christian is the perpetrator.

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