Today's Gospel is Far From The NT Message

Quoting Walter Chantry . . .
\t Can it be true that Christians are misleading the souls of men in regard to salvation? Is it really all that bad? Look at the evangelistic missions with all their gimmicks (I even heard a pastor say to a bunch of young people that if they could bring a certain number of kids out to Church, that he would swallow a goldfish in front of them . . . wacky but true). Examine all that you teach in the light of Jesus' thorough going Gospel and you will have to agree - the Church is far from the New Testament message.
Oh, and don't forget to look at your own preaching and teaching. All are not in error, but a great number are. All have not perverted the Gospel to the same degree, but many are terribly far from the truth. All those who, make "decisions" are not deceived, but a great number are. Above all, few CARE to recover the Gospel message. Most assume that evangelical tradition embodies all of it. Great numbers never carefully weigh their habits in the light of Scriptures. Many are never asked to count the cost of becoming one of Jesus disciples. ... Surely our first issue of duty to our Lord is to make sure that we have the right Gospel message. The same one not altered or improved - but in its original full strength formula.

Like a foul tasting cough medicine that is not pleasant to the taste of a sick child, the original Gospel of Jesus Christ is not pleasant to the ears of most sinners today. But it is the power of God to those that will believe unto salvation - it gets the job done.

Most of all we need to contend for the gospel. It is not just a few facts that Jesus and the Apostles preached it was life itself. True evangelism preaches the whole counsel of God with explanation and application to sinners.

Remember our Lord's dealing with the rich young ruler the next time you witness to someone. Don't sell this truth for unity at any cost. The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a pearl worthy to be purchased at the cost of all else. Rise above deadening evangelical tradition and "Earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

from the book: http://www.amazon.com/Today-s-Gospel-Authentic-Synthetic/dp/0851510272

When you look at the rich heritage of True Christianity, such as the merciless persecution of the Vaudois, you can only hope and pray that we, who are untested, will come through as Gold. Only by His grace and mercy.

They had such a zeal for missions, despite the RCC attempts to shut them down because they were not "qualified".

www.cathar.info/120116_waldensians.htm

A777

When we look at unity and Purity in the early Church, it is evident from both of these articles that it was never accomplished through ecclesiastical means; IE, through the exercise of a Central authority.

Quite the contrare'...The Priest Class in authority seeks to destroy any semblance of wavering to their perceived authority.

In the RCC, it was of course Papal; in our modern counterpart, it is the Clergy/Laity model fueled by the Pulpit, The tithe, and the false doctrines that empower the "Priest Class."

As a result, We receive a lie about the body being One, and Equal in Love.We get "THE PASTOR" along with the sub-doctrines of the church/temple being a building made by men.

Then there is the liturgy of singing a couple of songs, handing over your cash to be a member [tithes and offerings ] to SUPPORT the Priest Class and the Building..;then the "sermon", usually a religious lecture about this or that which is assigned as Biblical.

Add to this the benediction, the handshake and Sunday Pork roast at you local Restaurant...and it's been a good day. You have "Been to Church", and of course, blessed and faithful.

The early Church had none of these...Yet they were so holy, that it is written that all men feared to join themselves to them.

The early Church was a Kingdom of Priests...and ministers....women and weak included. They were unified under Christ and kept the commandment to love one another, and to lay their lives down for one another.

They were willing to lay down their checkbooks, property, and their futures to honor the least of the brethren. Sisters were as big a part of the ministry as brothers...though the Shepherds...[ always, always plural]..[and always unpaid, non-hirelings, UNDER the body in Love..] were always men.

The only time a SINGLE Pastor was mentioned was in 3rd John, and soundly rebuked as evil by the Apostle...who commented that he "loved the preeminence among them..."

So this is what we're facing. This has defiled the holiness of loving that we all long for. God is putting it all do death...and in the end, those who cling to this wicked self-usurping model will NOT be able to touch the Bride, or adorn her in any way.

"The Bride has made herself ready..."

Hi BrotherTom,

This thread brings up an important subject and one that needs to be talked about. I believe we all need to acquaint ourselves with Church History, to understand why we are, where we are, today.

Let's start at the beginnning.

Jesus Christ chose to make His entrance into this world among the LOWLY and the DESPISED. This is the nature of our God. He is near them that are humble and contrite and tremble at His Word.

There was a time when many of His followers, astonished and convinced by the omnipotence displayed in His wonderful miracles sought "to take Him by force to make him a king", but instead of encouraging their plans,
"He departed again, into a mountain Himself alone." (John 6:15).

In reply to the questions of the Roman governor, He spoke those memorable words, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD," and His whole conduct from the manger to the cross, and from the cross to the mount of ascension, was in strict accordance of His answer to Pontius Pilate and it is the mark of TRUE CHRISTIANITY down through the centuries.

MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD

When selecting those that He would sent forth as apostles of His faith, He did not go to the mansions of the great or to the palaces of kings, but to the humble walks of life, and chose from the poor of the world, those who, in carrying our their mission, were destined to be as their divine Master, despised and rejected of men.

In performing the work which their Lord gave them to do, the lowly, but zealous fisherman of Galilee and the courageous tent-maker of Tarsus, with their faithful fellow-laborers, despising all EARTHLY PRIZES and WORLDLY HONORS, were content to lay every laurel at the foot of Christ's cross, and to "count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus their Lord," for whom they had "suffered the loss of all things."
(Phil 3:8).

A few centuries afterward, we find the professed successor of Peter the fisherman, dwelling in a magnificent palace, attended by troops of soldiers READY TO AVENGE THE SLIGHTEST INSULT OFFERED TO HIS DIGNITY, surrounded by all the emblems of worldly greatness, with more regal splendor, proudly claiming to be the SOVEREIGN RULER of the UNIVERSAL CHURCH, the VICEREGENT of GOD upon earth, WHOSE DECISIONS are INFALLIBLE and WHOSE WILL IS LAW!

The contrast between these two pictures of Primitive Christianity in the first century and Papal Christianity in the seventh or eighth is so amazing that we are overwhelming led to ask, CAN THEY BE THE SAME?

If one is a FAITHFUL PICTURE OF CHRISTIANITY, can it be possible THE THE OTHER IS WORTHY OF THE NAME?

This transformation did not take place all at once. The change from the lowliness of the one to the lordliness of the other, required ages to complete, and it was not till the lapse of more than five centuries from the death of the last of the apostles that the transformation was entire.

The Apostle Paul tells us that even in his day, "the mystery of iniquity" had begun to work and had it not been for the purifying influence of the fires of persecution kindled by the emperor of pagan Rome, the advance of ecclesiastical corruption and spiritual despotism would probably have been far more rapid than it was - and it would have been at an earlier period that "the man of sin" would have been "revealed," even that "son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God."

For 3 centuries after Jesus Christ's glorious resurrection His disciples were subjected to continual cruel and bitter persecutions and sufferings, and with only very brief respite between them.

The wild beasts in the amphitheatre of Rome were fattened by the martyrs of Jesus while keeping the Roman populace amused. Under such a state of things, there was of course little motivation to the worldly minded and ambitious to seek admission to the Church of Jesus Christ. And if a time of relaxation came for a season, and some such persons had crept into the church it only required a mandate from another emperor to stoke the fires of persecution and separate the dross from the gold.

Christianity back then was like an "armed resistance", yet they carried no human weapons and did not obliterate men. The weapons of their warfare were not carnal and they sought not to avenge themselves. It was the very men that were spilling the blood of martyrs that the Church was seeking to win for Christ. They were a fierce force of resistance to the powers and potentates of the earth and it was the most effectual barrier against the speedier progress of corruption in the church. According to the prophetic message of the Apostle Paul, before "the man of sin" could be revealed it was necessary that this "let" or hindrance should be removed.

I believe without a doubt that Paul was referring to the continual persecution from pagan Rome, when he said, "and now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way; AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED ONE BE REVEALED."

It is an important fact that Popery is plainly a subject of prophetic prediction in the Holy Scriptures and though the almost entire subversion of true Christianity, which occurred in the course of only a few centuries, might otherwise have a tendency to shake our faith, yet when it is remembered that the GREAT APOSTASY or "falling away" happened exactly according to the SCRIPTURES of TRUTH, this fact serves to strengthen rather than shake our faith in the REALITY of our FAITH.

Today, the Roman Catholic Church says that the Bible cannot be true without the Holy Mother of Rome. What they mean to say is that the Pope gives it all of its evidence and authority. The Word of God predicted the rise, power and calamities of the Popery and if these predictions had not been fully manifested in the actual existence and tremendous evils of Popery, the Bible would have been lacking in its prophecies and therefore would not have been true.

All the pontiffs and Romish sovereigns down through the centuries have become accurate confirmations of the truth.

We can start with 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Tim 4:1.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

How very accurate is this inspired picture of the Apostasy of Rome, although penned 5 or 6 centuries before its complete development! Apart from the descriptions of the same power in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, these two passages alone represent a complete prophetical picture of the Papal anti-Christ, in which every detail of the prophetic picture was drawn to "scale" and no surprise since it was sketched by the inspiration of our Omniscient God.

Since these scriptures were written long before the accomplishment of them, we should pay more attention. Do they have a two-fold meaning for us in these latter days? Is the Romish Church and Popery still in existence? Does the Pope still consider himself the Vicar of Christ on earth? Are they still not employed by their very own admission in "bringing everyone home to ROME"?

Are we today, still that "Underground Resistance Force" that will not compromise with Rome? Would we rather lose all things in this world and even our lives, rather than imbibe and acquieous to Roman Doctrine which has pervaded many Protestant denominations. Do we even know today where we are being deceived and if we have taken Rome's teachings into our bosom?

CHURCH, WHO IS SITTING IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD TODAY?

Sadly, many do not. A time is coming when the dross will be separated from the gold, once again.

The fruit of vain philosophy down through the ages has paved the way for events to come. Back in Constantine's day, the "hindrance" was not effectually removed until Constantine the emperor, on professing himself a Christian, set out to convert the kingdom of Christ into a kingdom of this world, by exalting the teachers of Christianity to the same state of affluence, grandeur and influence in the empire as had been enjoyed by pagan priests and secular officers in the state.

The professed ministers of Jesus have now a wide field opened to them for gratifying their lust of power, wealth, and dignity. The connection between the Christian faith and the cross was at an end.

WHAT FOLLOWED WAS THE KINGDOM OF THE CLERGY SUPPLANTING THE KINGDOM OF JESUS CHRIST.

Rome today, boasts of its DIVINE HONORS, DIVINE WORSHIP and DIVINE AUTHORITY and it is carried on by Satan's influence with all deceit, hypocrisy and tyranny. What is being carried on today, corresponds with the figurative representation given of the same power in the 13th chapter of Revelation.

Neither the corruption of Christianity nor the Reformation and its abuses were accomplished in a day. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 2Ti 3:13

We are now in the sequel and the bishops are once again exalted to wealth, power and authority, and this exaltation is the source of every corrupt fruit. Now, we have the "priests" of Protestantism joining them. Learning, eloquence, and influence are exalted to maintain their dominion and popularity. Contests for pre-eminence over each other has BECOME THE SUBSTITUTE FOR THE ANCIENT CONTENTION FOR THE FAITH and its influence over the world.

Yet, many are not only blind to this great deception that has taken place in the past, but they are blind to this GREAT DECEPTION THAT IS TAKING PLACE NOW.

The substitution of human authority for diving authority, is even now preparing the way for the assumption of spiritual tyranny the likes of which no one can imagine. Pomp and splendor of worship for the primitive simplicity and worldly power and dignity instead of the self-denied labors of love and bearing the cross.

How far we have fallen?

When Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world", He was uttering perhaps one of the most important phrases given to the Church.

Every corruption in the church that has arisen by which the heavenly institution has been debased can be, in one way or another traced to a departure from the great and fundamental principle of the Christian kingdom.

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

WE ARE NO LONGER CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH, ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. Jude 1:3

Catholic Church- Mother Of Corrupt Bible Versions 1/9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySheyYPB4Qo

A777

Hi Ron,

I have the book and it is very, very good.

It is amazing what Walter brings out from just the story of the Rich Young Man, beginning with him flattering the Lord and calling Him "good". The Lord did not make it easy for him. Today, we would think, "We can't let this guy get away, he is rich and what a ble$$ing he would be to the (my) kingdom". Jesus pinpointed the idol in his heart and he just could not let go of it. Did Jesus get desperate and just say, "OK, OK, all you have to do is ACCEPT me"? No. He let him go, just like He let's many go today. A lot of people don't think that Jesus has let them go, and they are "following Him" in the false security of their religion. They are not really following Him they way HE WANTS, they are following Him THE WAY THAT THEY THINK HE WANTS THEM TO, deceived by their own heart.

Jesus demands all of our heart, not just a part of it.

Here are some more excerpts with me paraphrasing a bit.

If you study the preaching of Jesus and compare it with today's Gospel message you will see major differences. These are not petty in the least, in fact a better word would be enormous differences. The problems in today's preaching of the Gospel are not in the delivery, for many men are quite passionate of what they preach. But rather the main errors are in the heart of the Gospel message being spoken. If only one thing were missing, that would be pretty serious, but to ignore all the attributes of God, His holy law, repentance, a call to humbly bow in the dust to the Lord of Glory and the true doctrine of assurance, these have created an absolute nightmare that some are now waking up from. They are waking up by the mercy of God, because destruction in one form or another has rained down on their lives as they lived by this false gospel. I hope more than a few are waking up.

We have lowered Jesus' entrance requirements to His kingdom, as if He had invented a different gospel for the twentieth century. The doctrine of repentance has been exchanged for an easy, sorrowful, confession. The foundation stone of the Gospel has been discarded and the Church should be very disturbed. Paul went from house to house preaching repentance.

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

That was the central message, when the church, a long time ago, had power. Repentance, Holiness and Purity brought this power to their lives.

The false gospel does not require repentance. It only requires that you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour. The false gospel does not require holiness. Why should it? It never required people in the first place to bow in repentance before a holy and terrible God that has been utterly offended by their sin.

Churches of all kinds are being filled with people who have never heard that Jesus demands repentance of any who seek eternal life. You will do your fellow man a great service if you communicate to him the whole counsel of God. If you communicate a false gospel you will be guilty of spilling blood and there is a lot of blood being spilled today.

Eze 22:27 Her princes (religious leaders) in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Eze 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
Eze 22:29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

Jesus lost the rich young ruler. Did He compromise His gospel in order to win this potentially "influential" convert? No! The door to eternal life is the unadulterated Gospel that Jesus preached and all must go through this door if they want eternal life.

So, we will break down and examine this false gospel message and see why men are not turning to the Lord today and those that have "accepted Jesus" either fall away or hobble along and become religious while living in sin and defeat. Did they ever repent? Did they even know what to repent of?

Come to Jesus Christ with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything in your heart but Him.

A777

P.S. I did not know that Walter was a Calvinist until I picked up something real small at the end of the book and I just thought to myself, "That sounds Calvinist". But, it really doesn't matter because 99.9% of this little book is really annointed. So, if you know that he is Calvinist going in, don't let this dissuade you from reading it. You will see the STARK CONTRAST between TODAY'S contemporary GOSPEL and the BIBLICAL GOSPEL.

RE: to Hoohoou:

Thank-you for your thoughtful post....and I agree with you. In my post, which essentially exposed the Clergy/Laity model...I accentuated an error...Not "THE ERROR."

"All of this and you want to reduce the gospel to what model of church we are using? If this salvation is so great and our God is so great do you really think that a model is going to get in the way? God does use the foolish things of this world, or does He not?"

Amen! I agree with the tenor statement entirely. The model, obviously, sometimes has nothing to do with the Reality of God possessing his church, or Apostasy. You can have a perfect model,...as you noted in Corinth's ugly fruit, and No Holy Spirit....You can have a very Flawed model....and see the Glory of Jesus in Shekinah Glory.

Yet, as in the book of Acts, which is an historical account of the Acts of the Holy Spirit through men, sometimes the model is all we have. The Model is sometimes obscured by the sins of men, yet it was established through the Apostles, as a vehicle that would ensure His resting Place for each of the family of God.

My point is, that we are ALL ministers of the Gospel, and each of us has a ministry....it is NEVER simply regulated to a "PRIEST CLASS"...which has proven, on a massive scale, to have destroyed Body Life, and Body ministry.

Overall...[not entirely] this model has produced the "One Man Show", which has in turn robbed the church of the many ministries which exist within the heart of the Body....even unto the least of the Brothers and Sisters.

Along with this "Master of Ceremonies" concept, comes the liturgy that guarantees it's survival, at the expense of the body, which is taught to SIT, or "LAY", in subservience to the PRIEST CLASS...[ the Clergy/Laity is then accepted as the Norm...it is Not! the norm..]

This, without a doubt has been severely destructive to the Church. Acts 20:30...as Paul speaks of his efforts to establish a Godly model of plurality of Elders...and exposes the dangers of men drawing disciples...."AFTER THEMSELVES"...either willingly, or because their Bible school taught them so.

28. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Paul taught the Holy Model of the church.

Jesus spoke; "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth!"

Nicolaitan means Kings, or Lords over my people, or, "over the lay." What model would you suppose the Lord Jesus was talking about?

The "clergy" model has been very destructive to Christianity and the Lord is rightfully indignant against it in Revelation, because it pretty much nullifies His AUTHORITY and VOICE in the life of His sheep.

This battle has been fought for many, many centuries, however, today, most have "rolled over" and accept the clergy/laity system as if it is NORMAL CHRISTIANITY.

Here is an instance in history we should remember.

Waldo and his followers were Catholics, perfectly orthodox in every respect. But problems arose over the question of preaching. At the time, preaching required official Church permission, which Waldo was unable to secure from the Bishop in Lyon. In 1179 Waldo attended Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Council and asked for permission to preach. Walter Map, in De Nugis Curialium, narrates the discussions at one of these meetings. The pope, while praising Peter Waldo's ideal of poverty, ordered him not to preach unless he had the permission of the local clergy. He continued to preach without permission and by the early 1180s he and his followers were excommunicated and forced from Lyon.

The Catholic Church declared them heretics - the group's principle error was "contempt for ecclesiastical power" - that they dared to teach and preach outside of the control of the clergy "without divine inspiration". They were also accused of the ignorant teaching of "innumerable errors" and condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church. Waldo's teaching was very similar to that of Francis of Assisi, and his followers experienced a similar fate. St Francis's closest adherents, the Spiritual Franciscans, like Waldensians would be declared heretic and persecuted.

In attempting to justify their right to preach Waldensians read the bible closely and deduced that the papacy was mistaken not only in claiming the right to restrict their preaching, but also in a number of other respects - for example the role of priests as mediators between God and humankind, noting Matthew 23: "All of you are brethren." They also questioned the justification and extent of papal authority, and the interpretation of a number of biblical passages.

Waldensians were declared schismatics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and heretics in 1215 by the Fourth Lateran Council, which anathemamitised them. The rejection by the Church radicalised the movement; the Waldensians became anti-Catholic - rejecting the authority of the clergy, declaring any oath to be a sin, claiming anyone could preach and that the Bible alone was all that was needed for salvation, and rejecting the concept of purgatory along with the adoration of relics and icons.

A777

"I have no choice but to agree with you that the practices that you describe do occur in churches all across the world.

The thing is that it is the men in the pulpit and the people in the pews who are the problem. It is unregenerate "Christians" who are trying to do the work of God.

The difference is that the regenerate will work to do the will of God as he directs. The unregenerate try do the work for God. "...................Hoohoou

Thank-you Hoohoou. The Pharisees of old murdered Jesus....but yet hailed themselves as the most qualified, the most deserved and able to rule and control the holy Church of God; all for their own benefit.

It is written that they concurred; "IF WE LET HIM CONTINUE!!! the Romans will come and destroy our place, and our Nation!"....so they counselled to murder Him, and also poor Lazarus....as a Resurrected witness. [ Did you ever consider how scarred they must have been to become so blatantly cold??]

The Church was and is designed by God, with "every member a part"....and every member giving and serving. How is this possible with a priest/class dominating as the authority? This destroys body life, and body ministry, and must cease for the body to become one....as Jesus prayed.

John 16:1-3 (New King James Version)

1. “These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.

2. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.

3. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me!"...Jesus...

Jesus agrees with you ...." The unregenerate try do the work for God."

Religion kills....as often does the mindset of the modern hireling Pastors who deem themselves "Ministers."

The LORD is risen!

'And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.' Phil 2.

Here is an instance in history we should remember.

Did you quote this from somewhere, or it's the story in your own words? I am interested, as I've heard of the Waldenses and had no idea their origin as Catholics, or that they became estranged from Rome for believing the Bible.

and condemned for translating literally PARTS OF THE BIBLE which were DEEMED HERETICAL BY THE CHURCH.

This account is yet another which shows that the managers of men in Rome do know and understand what the Bible says, and they still reject it as the Pharisees did, attempting to annul the power of God through His word, although they must also be aware that the word of God is not bound.

Do you have any idea which parts of scripture were deemed heretical? (I am wondering if they have any bearing on the farness of 'Today's Gospel' from 'the NT Message').

Hi Oracio,

Thanks for these quotes. They crystallise some of Tyndale's story with regard to Catholicism. Three years after the New Testament, he published 'The Obedience of a Christian Man', which is a great read, with many comparisons offered between Catholic doctrine and Biblical doctrine. You can look inside.

amazon.co.uk/Obedience-Christian-Man-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140434771

Tyndale had used the Catholic Erasmus' choice of manuscripts. I'm now wondering what happened to the work Erasmus did in Latin for the Catholic church, which was equally controversial within Catholicism, forcing him to the fore as a Catholic apologist rather against his better judgement. Later the Catholic establishment asked him to refute Luther's work, and he was forced to dig up an old false doctrine (fideism) for the spine of his thesis. This has continued to be a mainstay of Catholicism till today.

Hi AtG,

Yes, the link is in this thread. Perhaps you missed it.

http://www.cathar.info/120116_waldensians.htm

If I dig a bit, I could probably find what translations the RCC deemed heretical.

We have to remember, that the RCC Magisterium has set themselves up as the only authoritative interpreters of Scripture. The individual believer does not have the Spirit of Truth residing in them.

I wonder what the Holy Spirit thinks of that, since He said, "He will guide us into all truth".

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

A777

Perhaps you missed it.

I consider the challenges of the Apostles in the early church, as they were assigned to be the living foundation for the Holy church of God. If you consider their highly exalted position, and task, along with the Adversary.....who sought to destroy them at every breath drawn; it is absolutely amazing.

Their Names will endure throughout all Eternity, as all who will ever pass in and out of New Jerusalem, must notice the Prestige given to them forever.

Revelation 21:14.... "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

These men, deemed to be "ignorant and unlearned"[this is not to be confused with being ignorant of the holy Scriptures, though..] by the religious and secular hierarchy of the day, had to ESTABLISH doctrine, in a sense. They clearly understood the consequences of their duty.

Holy Doctrine was the container, vehicle if you will, of the Truth applied to the lives of the Redeemed. If the lie was allowed to prevail, they understood that the lie would be born, and death following.....as well as Holy Doctrine applied by faith, would bear holy and loving fruit towards God.

This, in itself was the Crux of the battle for the Faith, as I see it. Satan is also very aware of this reality. Corrupt Holy Doctrine, and holiness is corrupted.

I am thinking of some of these evil doctrines that they had to confront, that have eventually made it into the true Church, and have accomplished their Satanic mission, which is the core of this thread...and WHY today's gospel is so far from the New Testament message.

To begin, There has been much fruitful discernment and dialogue concerning the RCC...which probably contains every one of the heresies, in one way or another, that the first Apostles encountered.

Rome had approx: 1300 Satanic, Pagan temples within her walls at the time of Paul the Apostle. This order of Worship had endured for Millennia before Christ, and even before Abraham. It is the order of Babel...the first highly organized Satanic system to worship and practice evil. It is Babylon.

This system worshipped the entire order of the wicked angels, throughout many cultures, times, and Nations. It had many seats, or "Mountains", that it rested upon throughout time. Many , many demons were worshipped on many different days.

Today is one...not changing for perhaps 5500 years....the worship of the Queen of Heaven herself...ASTARTE....OR EASTER!..On this day of worship, pagan fertility rites were honored....including the veneration involving large EGGs....and other wicked orgy like rites...too nasty to mention.

This Pagan System, then founded at Rome...with all of her Priests and Priestesses......walked through a small stream outside Rome, and were declared Christian...including the exact same days that particular demons and demonesses were worshipped, but then encased in symbols, and rituals....slightly masked and Christianized....and went right on down the road, sucking multiple billions into her web....as Christian of course...

The Apostles knew about Babylon...and warned about her.....but this is just one of the major heresies they confronted.

[If you have more, please join in....it's a good study...and to see that we fight the exact things today in our war...BT]

......continued on top....BT

If you have more, please join in.

It is that in Babylon, when the Jews were there, the priests of Babylonish worship were called 'peters'.

On thinking about this today, a little, it occurs to me that before Lucifer sinned, he was in God's presence, probably hearing everything that the Father shared with the Son.

I mention this, because the counterfeit produced by the kingdom of darkness is fearfully and wonderfully accurately modelled on eternal truth - except that it's entirely false.

We know from Job 1, that even Lucifer's banishment didn't keep him out of God's presence, and his power is limited by what God allows. So, when one thinks that the first thing Jesus did when He met Andrew's brother Simon, was to surname him 'Peter', HE knew he was making a statement which would reverberate through the powers of darkness immediately.

Then, He said to Peter when the time was right, that He Himself is the Rock, and upon it He is going to build HIS Church. This metaphor may have been lost on Peter at the time, but it's clear from his first epistle, chapter 2, that the time later came when Peter had it figured! Praise the Lord.

1st Heresy confronted: "Babylon"

2nd Doctrinal heresy confronted: "The Pharisee spirit:"

Compared to our modern Priest Class: The modern Pastor, Minister, or Teacher.[not that all qualify, but the system is overwhelmed with this model of ministry..]

The Pharisees , simply put, demanded Lordship over the Synagogues, and proclaimed themselves as the Priest-Class of their day over Israel.

These men were proud, greedy, controlling, and made their living on the backs of the congregation.Jesus often confronted them, and in the end, the powers of Darkness...using the Pharisees and chief Priests directly, murdered Jesus.

They realized that it was either HIM, or them, who would gain allegiance from God's people.

Matthew 23
1.Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2.Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3.All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4.For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5.But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6.And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7.And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8.But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9.And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10.Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11.But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12.And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17.Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18.And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20.Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21A.nd whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22.And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24.Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26.Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28.Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30.And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31.Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32.Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33.Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? "

God never made the body for men to Rule over it...but he did make it with true, unprofessional Shepherd Brothers to serve it from underneath, as a slave, To do three things.

1.]FEED THE BODY OF CHRIST...NOURISH HER, AND LAY YOUR LIFE DOWN FOR HER.

2.] PROTECT THE BODY OF CHRIST, AND LAY YOUR LIFE DOWN FOR HER.

3.] EXERCISE YOUR AUTHORITY TO MANIFEST THE FULL LORD SHIP OVER THE BODY OF THE ONLY DESERVING ONE....JESUS OF NAZARETH!

The Apostles all confronted the spirit of the Pharisees. John wrote 3John, and said of Diotrophese:

4.. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

5.. Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;

6.. Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:

.. 7Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.

8.. We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.

9.. I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

10.. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

11.. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

This is the only place in the New Testament where the Singular Pastor is mentioned, an, as most..."Loves the Preeminence among them!"

John Calls this "EVIL." Where is the mutual submission to each other, as every other time Pastors, or Elders.... [ Same Word..] are used in plurality...and...

ACTS 20:

27.. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28.. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29.. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30.. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31.. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

We face it too, and the great falling away...is upon us. We will become one loving body, equal and free, able to manifest equal and enduring love the same to the Least, or the greatest, whoever that may be. Jesus did.