Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan

Is anyone else listening to the series Greg posted here?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37212&forum=16&2

I wondered if so, whether it has altered your understanding or views, or, you're having to alter your theology to receive this man's testimony? Or, maybe you just plain disagree?

AtG, how long is each of the series?

You always get me doing things. :)
As an example - as soon as you mentioned A.B. Simpson's biography by Tozer last year, I immediately pulled it off the shelf and read it through that same night :) Hadn't read it in 25 yrs.
See how persuasive you are. Bet ya didn't know.

LORD Bless!

Thanks White Stone!

I listened to one - "manifestations" - forget which # that was.

No comment at this time.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD, They are all less than an hour - 40 - 45 mins. I'm listening in order, and finding there is a reason they are in order - because he's a teacher, and he's building.

He is speaking to Christians, and that permits him a direct style.

Hi Lysa,

I was amazed at how when someone opens their mind to the Spirit of the Lord, He takes them beyond denominational boundaries!

:-D

I'm up to the fifth session later today.

Luk 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,

until ye be endued with power from on high."

From Corrie's letter on how we're to get through the worst days in human history that are to come, when demonic power will be at it's peak, as never before seen on earth - when discernment will be needed more than ever as well -

**First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

**Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

**We must be filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it."

Strongly recommend listening to some of Corrie Ten Boom's messages.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=14

The last days will be filled with "lying signs and wonders".

What does that mean. The word "lying" gives us a clue that those 'acts' will Not be based upon His Truth and will Not promote His Truth.

The "True Truth" of HIS Word.

IF Satan can get a person to continue to believe a lie against a Biblical truth - sure he'll leave a person's body with great signs of being expelled - but he has not left them. He's left them believing half truths or lies.

What is Satan's biggest Enemy? The WORD of GOD.

Is that just quoting some Scriptures or being IN The Truth?

Satan Hates Truth and will do everything within his power to deceive by any means possible - even 'signs and wonders' and "manifestations" of All Sorts. Satan's bag of tricks is only limited by GOD's protection.

Whenever we believe a doctrinal un-truth, we've sinned against The Holy Spirit of Truth. We've told the Spirit of Truth to be silent and have calloused over a portion of our spirit to His Voice. Satan will 'bless that'. Satan will help the person along to remain calloused in that one area where the Spirit of Truth cannot penetrate.

How do you think that So many - GOD says "most" - will fall away and mainly through iniquity and deceptions. That "Angel of light" is much smarter than to make himself Obvious. Lucifer was in Heaven to serve and worship GOD for ages, that we have no way of numbering. He KNOWS how GOD thinks and how Heaven works. Only GOD can hold him back. We, with our puny human brains cannot even begin to fathom nor measure his intelligence with our meager knowledge of IQ tests and the such. Even the children of darkness of wiser than the children of light.

Only The Spirit of Truth - Who only testifies and stands by or blesses The WORD of GOD in it's entirety can lead us away from deceptions that open us up to Satan's lies.

Child-like dependence based upon a True Love relationship with Him will get any of us through.
His Love rejoices only at His Truth - not our perception of what's true or truth.

Why did He demand "child-like" minds to possess the Kingdom? Because children have no knowledge of their own and the principle of looking up to Father is the highest form of humility that could be displayed as an example to us.

If we shun His Teachings (called doctrine) in the KJV - we've shunned HIM.

The enemy cannot get in and cannot stay in the presence of one who has emptied themselves of self and have leaned entirely in dependence on GOD in Christ by His Spirit.
When a child of GOD who has humbled themselves of all but HIM comes into a house or the presence of any Satanic beings - they leave - period.

It's when people have allowed themselves to have any confidence in themselves or have accepted a lie of Any sort - most especially doctrinal - that they open themselves up to demonic delusions - either delusions of grandour/ego or delusions about the supernatural type and such.

Sure, the enemy will put on quite the show to keep anyone in the grip of untruths - those beliefs that are contrary to The Truth. Immanuel is The Truth!

Immanuel used only The WORD of GOD against Satan - though He was The WORD of GOD in the flesh on earth.

If we speak the Word of GOD from a deceived spirit - that's been deceived by believing a lie - do you believe that quoting of Scripture has the Power of The Spirit of TRUTH behind it?

In Spirit and In Truth!

Satan biggest tactic in these last days is to deceive through doctrines of devils and through lying signs and wonders that confirm these doctrines that are not of The Truth.

Don't be deceived. Make that our most earnest prayer in all humility, before an All-Mighty GOD and with fear - that we will not be deceived and the only way He will accomplish that in any of us is to remove All Lies ... in Jesus' Name and by His Authority alone we pray this. Amen. In His Love.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I'm wondering why you think Jesus gave power to His disciples, and authority in His name to us, to cast out demons, if it never needs to be done for anyone?

We've had this discussion before... about Spirit filled Christians having demons 'in' them --- I believe it was on a Jesse Penn-Lewis thread.

It's Not In His Word.

I think what Jesus-is-God is implying, when she includes "Spirit-Filled" Christian, is that even if a Christian is engaging in gross pornography and deception and in a horrible backslidden state, that just because they are "Spirit-Filled", the Holy Spirit will take over and keep that spirit of an unclean devil from coming into them and making a nice home for itself.

So, the Holy Spirit protects us while we are in gross sin and unable to control ourselves...

...or these are not real Christians. That's a lot of people.

Luk 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice.

So, if these are not Christians, then let's see, how many percent of professing Christians are involved in pornography? I forgot the poll, something like 60 per cent.

Now the Lord did not tell us about all the demonic spirits that exist (one guy had over a thousand) but he did give us a good sampling.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Are the captives only UNSAVED PEOPLE. Are Christians ever captives to anything?

Here is a lady that had an infirmity.

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

JESUS called it a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY!

"Had a spirit", means she carried it with her wherever she went.

Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a SPIRIT OF DIVINATION met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Ever known a Christian involved in astrology or anything else like that. Some Christians in time of deep stress that leads to sin (not trusting God) have consulted mediums or palm readers. You get what you ask for (or open yourself up to).

Regarding legalism or the law, Jesus calls it the spirit of bondage.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the SPIRIT OF BONDAGE again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ever met an extremely legalistic Christian?

Jesus even says that there is a demonic spirit that causes spiritual blindness.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Whenever the enemy is trying to put a spirit of fear on you, remember that it does not come from God. Fight against it and don't receive it.

The sad thing is that I have met many Christians that have a spirit of fear that is manifested many different ways. They have definitely been in bondage to fear. So much that it incapacitates them to be able to make a simple decision.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

And since He has given you the spirit of power, love and sound mind, protect it by remaining in Him, and don't open yourself to other unclean spirits.

Ever met deceived Christians believing false doctrines.
Jesus called that the spirit of error.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the SPIRIT OF ERROR.

Satan does not respect ignorance or unbelief.

What do you think a Christian will receive if they engage in adultery (pornography, lust). I bet Jesus would have called that a spirit of adultery or fornication. A spirit of murder (hatred in the heart), lying, (we already see what He called that). Look at the other works of the flesh.

If we engage in the works of the flesh, which are the nature of Satan, don't you think it will attract some unsavory "friends"?

Still not convinced?

Then all these "Christians" that have all these problems and more, need to be born-again, right? Either you think they are false brethren or just oppressed. Only thing about oppression is that it does not grip you and control you for months and years.

You may not have ministered to a genuine born-again believer that needed deliverance. That's ok, no one faults you for that. But now you see it in the Word and just be open about it This is sadly and terribly widespread and don't shut people down that have may have witnessed or even experienced it. The Lord might have something to teach all of us.

Listen to some of Milt Green's DVDs. Here is a brother that was invited to speak at many churches for a weekend and would end up spending weeks and months at the church ministering deliverance to the captives starting with the Pastor and the leadership team right on down to the worship leader and the congregation.

What about James Robison's confession in Christianity Today? Milt Green ministered deliverance to him. He had a strong spirit of lust that he said felt like a vise grip on his head.

Since this is so widespread, I am sure you can find testimonies all over the Internet.

This teaching (that the Holy Spirit protects you even when you are in horribly gross sin) causes many Christians to freely engage in sin and dabble in things they have no business dabbling in.

Anyway, this is not something to strive about. The Lord may show you and He may not and if He does you may see it and you may not.

A777

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

quote: "I think what Jesus-is-God is implying, when she includes "Spirit-Filled" Christian, is that even if a Christian is engaging in gross pornography and deception and in a horribl backslidden state, that just because they are "Spirit-Filled", the Holy Spirit will take over and keep that spirit of an unclean devil from coming into them and making a nice home for itself.

So, the Holy Spirit protects us while we are in gross sin and unable to control ourselves.

Such a deal!

...or these are not real Christians. That's a lot of people."

You think you know what I was implying?

It's obvious you do not know what I meant.

Had you read my post on the bottom of page 1 than "maybe you would and then again, maybe you wouldn't understand".

Most of those verses say that GOD DID NOT give us a "spirit of" this or that.

The woman with the spirit of infirmity was not saved!

In the verse - GOD has not given us a "spirit of fear" - for "fear" here is deilia, meaning cowardice and the "sound mind" part is "self discipline or self control".

With those verses you quoted - not all were actual "spirits" as in demons - if you check Strong's definition, it can be "mental disposition".

If a "Christian" gets into "deep pornography and deception and a horrible backslidden state" then that is exactly what they are - Backslidden and if they died in that state - they'd wake up in Hell - for there's no fear or love of GOD in them.

If you begin to blame demons for sin - you open a door that will take people down a very deceptive trail.

On this topic - I agree with David Wilkerson - a Christian cannot be demon possessed. That The Holy Spirit will not reside in the same "temple" with a demon.
If a person is demon possessed (indwelt) they are not Saved.

AtG, I found the thread that you may very well have read.

The discussion with "urbanus"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37171&forum=40&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

No comments on my first post at the bottom of page 1 - just that one question to me AtG?

------------------------------------------------------

Lisa, I don't remember the exact number that Leonard Ravenhill gave for what he believed the actual percentage of truly saved people there are amongst professing "Christians" but you can correct me if I'm wrong - but for some reason I remember someone saying 2%.

If a "missionary" started speaking with "a different voice" I would certainly question their walk with GOD.

The first ministry that The LORD led me into when I was newly saved was demonology but I'm not writing any books.
He wrote the Only Book we'll ever Need to read.

All demon possession is of the unsaved through-out the Word of GOD.

Eph 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but **fellowcitizens** with the saints,
and of **the household of God**; and **are built** upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
in whom all the building fitly framed together

groweth unto **an holy temple in the Lord:**

in Whom ye also **are builded** together for

**an habitation of God** through the Spirit.

-------------------------------------------------

If we even begin to blame a Christian's sin on demons - we've contradicted every Word of our Bible regarding sin in a believer's life and have opened a door to a deception that will have devastating affects on young Christians who haven't had the chance to Study to show themselves approved and able to rightly divide the Word of Truth and have put that "spirit of fear" in them that will more than likely gainsay over them until or hopefully they READ HIS WORD WELL and ONLY, on where we stand in Christ and that we're tempted of our 'own' lusts.

**UPDATE**

I don't blame Satan for sin.

When a Christian allows themselves to be brought back into bondage again the faculty of their wills have been greatly compromised.

Jesus spoke much about this topic, but you can also explain anything away with the Word.

Not taking anything away from Leonard, but I will go with Milton Green. Leonard was more of a spiritual "office worker" while Milt worked in the "field" everyday. Leonard could recognize what was wrong with the church and write very effectively about it. I am just saying that Milt was in the "thick of things". He saw what was wrong, but was also out there being used by God to set people free.

Plus my own experience with Christians. If you are going to to say that all these people were never born-again, then you are talking about millions of people, including James Robison.

Unclean spirits inhabit the FLESH, NOT the human spirit of the person, which is always and solely reserved for fellowship with God - by the Holy Spirit if they have received Him. This is a basic teaching.

This is a subject that blows most people's "theology". It certainly blew mine. Reading the Bible is one thing but experiencing this is wholly quite another. We are not talking theory, here. And it is pointless to go on and on about it. The only person that can prove it to you is Jesus. That's the way it was with me, too.

This is not the place to talk about experiences. Satan loves to sensationlize this kind of thing. He is very crafty.

Sadly, today's Christians keep a lot of psychiatrists in business and give their money to drug companies for haldol and other very strong drugs to control themselves and their kids.

I pray the Lord gives you understanding.

A777

Hi TrueWitness, on that linked discussion I left in my post - we also discussed "possession of faculties".
For a "Christian" to open his mouth and a demon speaks - from where is that voice coming out of?

That one manifestation alone is a sign of "possession".

And Neil Anderson and the author here both admit this 'stuff' isn't in our New Testament.
That's my reason for disagreeing with it all in the first place.
They are describing "possession" in this series and saying now that it's Not possession.
Did someone say these men are Baptists or did I hear that on one of the series only?

~ AtG - your question still has me puzzled ... mainly the word "anyone".

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I don't want us to fall out over this discussion. Please know that I love you, and did not start this thread for a fight.

I'm wondering why you think Jesus gave power to His disciples, and authority in His name to us, to cast out demons, if it never needs to be done for anyone?

if you check Strong's definition, it can be "mental disposition".

Really what I mean is, how do we know a wrong 'mental disposition' is NOT the result of sin, spiritual wounding, emotional trauma, or the demonic influences which can be ministered to a person (from babyhood onwards) by those with suitable access to them?

It's when people have allowed themselves to have any confidence in themselves or have accepted a lie of Any sort - most especially doctrinal - that they open themselves up to demonic delusions - either delusions of grandour/ego or delusions about the supernatural type and such.

For a "Christian" to open his mouth and a demon speaks - from where is that voice coming out of?

I've finished listening to the series now, and Jim Logan doesn't mention this specifically. I didn't hear anything I hadn't heard before, and was encouraged towards faith by his anecdotes, all the more because most of them were about people involved in full time ministry for Christ, or, their children (of different ages).

Part of the problem with the belief that the Holy Spirit non-specifically delivers all new Christians from all demonic influence which ever came upon their life, is that it takes no account of God's superior understanding of the reasons He allows them to stay, while waiting His time to stir up conflict with them through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

God has no intention of leaving the person in bondage, but He knows perfectly what lies ahead of them, and doesn't ask any of us to change everything all at once. Although some of us may think He did, I think we'll find if we consider carefully, that there was continuity somewhere in the way He led us. He is concerned to establish His relationship with us on the terms that it began, and see us grow. We may well need both spiritual strength and grace to pull down those strongholds and reclaim the ground our life had relinquished to sin (and adverse spiritual influences).

Surely there is enough in scripture which shows that although the children of Israel had left Egypt, Egypt was still in their hearts and minds? The battle for their souls mostly failed. The next generation who went into the land, many years later still had failed to drive out ALL opposing forces. The gospel proclaims to us the ultimate victory, but the battles still have to be fought, and won, the strongholds destroyed and obedience to truth satisfied.

We also have the picture of Jesus entering the Temple before it was cleansed, driving out everything that wasn't supposed to be there, forbidding anyone to come back with STUFF, and receiving the BLIND and the LAME INTO THE TEMPLE, and He healed them THERE.

The last, excellent Old Testament example is Josiah's renewal of the Covenant between God and Israel standing by a pillar IN the Temple.

THEN, and only then, did he order all the stuff for Baal worship to be taken OUT OF THE TEMPLE. 2 Kings 23.

Falling outs and fights is not why I'm here Sis. I don't see discussions in that light at all.

I can't make this very long, but if you read my posts both on this thread and the link where I discuss this issue with "urbanus", you'll get the drift that I'm just opposed to the teaching that a Christian can be "demon possessed".
I've posted that more times than I can number.

Not a few of the illustrations that are used in this series are manifestations of 'possession'.

No need to persist in trying to convince me of one of the truths within the first two Bible verses I memorized when I first got saved and believe as strongly as any child would believe their loving trust-worthy Father....

Mar 16:17, 18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sis, I said earlier that my first course of study and ministry was in the area of demonology, so to waste time in believing that I don't see that deliverance is part of everyone's ministry is well, just that, a waste, when we could be getting straight to the point of what I do indeed believe instead.

Oppresion, persecution from, thorns in the flesh, temptations that are derived from our own lusts and so forth, of a Christian is Biblical .... Possession of Christians is not and just as Neil Anderson said himself - there's nothing in the N.T. to prove it ... but quite the contrary - there's plenty to prove otherwise.

No where in the Word of GOD will we find any verse that lays the blame of our own sin and ego on the devil.
I'm aware of Johanna Michaelson's experience and her stay with Francis Shaeffer after coming out of deep involvement with the occult - so yes, it takes time - but she was not "possessed".

When Legion answered Jesus out of the mouth of that man in the caves he wasn't using ventriloquism. The demons spoke through the man. That is what I'm familiar with when talking with those who are 'possessed', even those from churches that others thought were "saved". Counterfeit spirits can fool a whole Church into believing a person is saved when they're not.
Many in the easy-believism church - of which there are multiple thousands, are not truly saved and these are those who are being "possessed".

The difference in definitions with that word "spirit" is seen in one of the verses that 777 posted - that "GOD has not given us a spirit of "cowardice/timidity" but of love, power, and self-control or self-discipline."
This is where we see that "mental disposition" in the context of this verse would be a more suitable definition.

My last post on that previous page had plenty to do with the doctrines of those involved in "demonology". We have RCC priests doing exorcisms. We have those who do not have the baptism in His Spirit, who believe osas and pre-trib coming under severe attacks and turning to those who also believe as they do. There is a section of those who believe osas that are actually not saved - that have only made a mental-assent of Christ, thus "easy believism."
Yes, they are wide open to possession and yes I do question the beliefs/doctrines of those who are bringing them "deliverance" as well. I think that may have come across in my posts here and on the Freewill & Those Days thread also.
Doctrine matters to GOD.

Love & TTYA

Hi JiG,

I'm just opposed to the teaching that a Christian can be "demon possessed".

'My friend and fellow warfare counselor Neil Anderson says, "No question polarizes the Christian community more than this one, and the tragedy is that there is no absolutely biblical way to answer it."'

"Possession"

What Anderson means is that the New Testament does not directly answer the question of whether a Christian can be demon-possessed. That's because the New Testament doesn't really address the issue of demon possession, as we commonly think of it, in relation to the Christian.

In fact, the very term demon possession itself is part of the problem. It is used in most English versions of the Bible to translate a single Greek word - and it may not be the best translation at all. Tim Warner says:

The use of the word "possession" to translate the expressions used in the Greek New Testament to indicate the relationship between demons and people is unfortunate, if not unwarranted. We obtained our English word "demon" by transliterating the Greek word daimon. We should have done the same with the Greek word daimonizomai - a verb form of the same Greek root. It would then come into English as "demonize" and we could then speak of the degree to which a person could be demonized rather than being limited to the either-or options imposed by the possessed - not possessed view.'

I believe Warner is on target when he concludes, "Spiritual possession' clearly implies ownership and would seem to include the control of one's eternal destiny. [It] would be impossible to be owned and controlled by Satan and have a saving relationship with Christ at the same time. So if the question is, 'Can a Christian be demon-possessed?', THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY NO." '

He goes on to speak about 'influence', and in the talk series he eventually covers how that influence can manifest in a person's life, not always directly related to things the person has chosen to do, whether known sins at the time, or unknown-to-the-person sources of such influence.

What this means is that CHRISTIANS may need to be delivered from demonic 'influence' which it is beyond their personal understanding, or control, or power to lay hold of the answer in Christ on their own (at that time).

Hi Lysa,

I look forward to further discussion. I will probably listen to it all again, particularly to note the scriptures he mentions in one session.

Could I ask you to listen out for where he says 'this is the same [Greek] word as for 'armour' in Ephesians 6'. What was the Greek word please?

Many thanks.

I've got reading to do for an answer in another thread, first.

Quote: "I believe Warner is on target when he concludes, "Spiritual possession' clearly implies ownership and would seem to include the control of one's eternal destiny. [It] would be impossible to be owned and controlled by Satan and have a saving relationship with Christ at the same time. So if the question is, 'Can a Christian be demon-possessed?', THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY NO." '"

Well, good for Warner. This is the same conclusion that anyone reading the Word of GOD should come to.

The link to that other thread on this topic in the middle of page 2 goes deeper still into the words connected to this, such as "cast out" - which is an activity that we read in His Word connected with those who have demons "in" them. Put those pieces together. That other thread is worth the read for anyone who ever gets into a bind of fear on this topic.
But most importantly - Where we stand IN Christ is the chiefest Study one should do and new converts need to be taught that first and foremost before they're given tons of sermons to listen to. New converts need to be grounded in His Word first so that they can discern truth from error and Know where they stand in Christ.

I have followed the stories of Missionaries most of my saved life. These testimonies that are reported in this series are not normal. Or should I say "The Normal Christian Life" of the 1000's of missionary stories we can read about through-out history!

When I was ministering to people being mentally tormented, GOD gives the gift of discerning of spirits for a reason. Also the gifts of a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom. All these gifts are part of ministry. Without them, people are playing guessing games with other people's minds at stake. I have little respect for those who believe that they are experts in any field regarding the mind without His aide for wisdom for each individual case. Only GOD knows the mind and life of another - and Scripture says, that we don't even know our own minds without Him shining His Light - whether by His Word that exposes the thoughts and intents of the heart or just a revelation of what our motives and so forth, are. Some people call it a subconcious, but we give that aspect a bit more credence than it deserves. We keep going outside of Scripture and taking in a bit of this or that of secular beliefs or extra-Biblical beliefs and that - especially in the area we're discussing - can be devastating, especially to new believers and the weak in Christ, as Paul tells us to deal gently with.

What our problem is, when we get into this area is, thinking that we can enter this without the gifts of the Spirit along with knowing His Word indepth and Knowing that, even which Scriptures are to be applied needs to come from Him.

The Apostles had "No Methods" - they leaned 100% on The Spirit of The LORD (Just as Jesus did) for Light, wisdom, words from Him on what they were dealing with and the "words to say" and the action to take - which Needs to be from GOD alone and Biblical.

To even begin to think about this topic, one must be sure that they are very well grounded in His Word or are counseling with someone who is definitely grounded in The Word first.

The Sceva brothers are just one example to be remembered. GOD will allow the person who feels that they, 'in themselves' are qualified to counsel anyone with mental anguish, to fall themselves, in order to get through to them that 'without Him we can do Nothing'.

This is not a psychologist office visit type ministry - where you just talk to find out what you believe is wrong with the person. Without the gifts and being very filled with His Word and 'In Truth' - the person, if helped at all, will only be helped temporarily.

Demonology is a topic that most schools of ministry do not enter until those in training are mature in His Word.

And the lies that are being taught in this area are all the more proof that New Christians need to be taught to get into the New Testament and KNOW it and to know where they/we stand in Christ and what playing what sin can do to anyone's walk - not even considering the demonic in that - but knowing how GOD feels Himself about rebellion being as the sin of witchcraft.

New converts need to understand first and foremost that their relationship with GOD is one of loving the LORD and having that desire to obey His Word is out of that Love - knowing even the enabling to obey and follow His Word is given to them of GOD. That He is The Good and gentle Faithful Shepherd of His Sheep.
The true convert, indwelt by His Spirit, has nothing whatsoever to fear. To fear is not of His Word.

A Christian who knows that they're living up to the light that they have, is called 'perfect' by GOD.

What I saw the most of and still see, are those who have believed incorrect teachings or have faulty personal beliefs about the power of demons with Christians.

The main thing that I dealt with is people's "imagination out of control" from believing things that are not Scriptural. Imagination, in and of itself can put someone in a mental institution - and that's one point we truly need to fully understand when dealing with others. Very important. Imagination is a powerful force that is triggered when a person begins to believe any lie. No lie is of the Truth.

Satan is the Father of lies - and in a Believer who is living up to the light that he has - the enemy can ONLY implant a thought in his mind that is a "lie" and if the believer believes this "lie" that contradicts the Truth of GOD's Word as far as Where we stand in Christ - then off they'll go into "fear". Satan rides on "fear" with glee and fear opens the mind to further thoughts that are "lies" and that cycle won't be broken until the 'first' lie received is exposed and dealt with, with His Word. That is all that Jesus used against lies and Satan's temptations.
If we come to fully 'understand' that the Word of GOD is the only True Truth in the universe and that it's 'Living' besides and our weapon of warfare, besides a lamp onto our feet and the light upon our paths - then any "lies" that the enemy or false teachers try to implant into our minds are counteracted by His Word.

There are people right now in mental institutions because of someone's false beliefs or practices in the area of demonology - and the blame many of the times is on the one who believed these false beliefs on demonology and then passed it to some poor victim who had only believed a lie in the first place that snowballed into full blown phobias or gave up in despair and gave themselves over to the dangerous ground of back-sliding out of that despair and then 'were' open to demonic influence - all because of a false view on this very topic we're discussing now.

Without the same gifts of the Spirit that we know the Apostles used in their ministry and being filled with a sound understanding of His Word and even dependent on Him to give us the correct Scriptures for each individual situation - we are arrogant fools to try to help those who are in mental anguish of any sort.

Yes, that part does raise a righteous indignation within me because of the many that were brought down by unwarranted fears and totally incapacitated to the point of helplessness and normally needing to resort to psychiatric help because of someone who decided it would be exciting to go into the Deliverance ministry. And I know that if it bothers me this much - I can only imagine GOD's anger at anyone hurting one of HIS little ones - and I don't mean just children in that term.

If we as a generation do not start pointing people to His WORD alone, we will stand before Him as the most guilty generation of all - "for to him that much is given - much is required."
And GOD help us if we ever hurt one of His with what we 'think' we know, that did not come from HIM or His Word (sound doctrine and led by dependence on His Spirit).
Yes Amen, GOD help us and humble us until we see that without You and Your Word we can do nothing except hurt ourselves and others and that you take that very seriously - in Jesus Name.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Thank you for your full reply and wisdom in this matter. Most all the points you raise are covered in the series of talks, and several times (he calls himself) Logan refers to the first time he encountered a situation, I think, because that makes it easier to use as an example in a teaching situation. He is not glib about these things. These are not ordinary 'sermons'.

And the lies that are being taught in this area are all the more proof that New Christians need to be taught to get into the New Testament and KNOW it and to know where they/we stand in Christ and what playing what sin can do to anyone's walk - not even considering the demonic in that - but knowing how GOD feels Himself about rebellion being as the sin of witchcraft.

New converts need to understand first and foremost that their relationship with GOD is one of loving the LORD and having that desire to obey His Word is out of that Love - knowing even the enabling to obey and follow His Word is given to them of GOD. That He is The Good and gentle Faithful Shepherd of His Sheep.
The true convert, indwelt by His Spirit, has nothing whatsoever to fear. To fear is not of His Word.

A Christian who knows that they're living up to the light that they have, is called 'perfect' by GOD.

What I saw the most of and still see, are those who have believed incorrect teachings or have faulty personal beliefs about the power of demons with Christians.

He does tell of one person who went back into sin after having been delivered, who was - at the time of the talks - in a mental institution as a result of the back-sliding.

Regarding "sin" - we are tempted of our own lusts and even if the enemy comes in like a flood with non-Scriptural words - counterfeit gifts - or temptations - Jesus gives the way out - HIS WORD. Just needed to say that part one more time.

We are mighty when walking in The Spirit of The Living GOD and according to His written Word and need to know that our weapons are mighty - if we stay within the perimeters of His Word alone and realize that we do indeed need to obey His directive to wait upon the Baptism in His Spirit - to do otherwise is rebellion against His Word and we all know what rebellion leads to. And we need to depend totally upon Him for His gifts, in this area especially.

"Fear" is pandemic in these days and will only increase and "fear" opens the doors to "lies" implanted into the thought life of an individual given to 'fear'. One Needs to know where they stand in Christ by His Word alone and understand the danger of giving one's mind over to fear instead of renewing their minds with His Truths.

I felt led to come back on here after going to prayer and explain that faulty teaching can lead these that I spoke of to resort to "medical" help.

I know of three persons who had been given faulty teachings on where we stand in Christ and half-baked 'demonology' that were too far gone by time we met them to help them - because it had gotten them to the point of seeking help from Doctors and all three were institutionized.

Once a person has come under the care of a Doctor - they are Beyond the help of the Church and Most especially if they are then institutionalized. Does this not show us the importance of doctrinal purity and the need for dependence on His Spirit when ministering to Anyone?

One lady that had been in Church all of her life, raised in a Christian home, who went this route, has been in a Nursing Home with Parkinson's that she developed from the "medical" help she received for just beginning to have trouble sleeping years ago and having sat under faulty teaching of where we stand in Christ in her Baptist church.
All she needed was some Biblical counseling and maybe a natural sleep aide until she was re-taught the Word of Truth.

The other two became incapable of caring for their own children and had to depend on in-laws to help because they Only believed one lie, that drove their imaginations beyond what is actually written and they both, as well, resorted to Dr's 'care' before they could get sound help from another Christian.

One of these three sweet Sisters in Christ, who was in a church that was heavily into "demons", shouted commands at "her demons" for many hours until the woman was allowed to leave, only to go home to be further tormented by mere lies only.

All three of these women were dear sweet ladies who's only problem was an over-active conscience that the enemy used to accuse them with and they fell under False Condemnation when actually, they were very obedient to the Word that they knew and they weren't 'sinners' - but all three were never grounded in the Words of where we as obedient Christians stand in Christ. That was all they lacked. Sound doctrine. And the one who was subjected to that all-night "deliverance service" was fed a pack of lies of the power of Satan - beyond what is written!

When you see these things enough times happen to people you've come to love - then you become all the more dependent on His Word alone and His leading for wisdom for each individual through the gifts mentioned, that only He can give, to those who know that they can do nothing of themselves to help anybody, especially one on the edge of a cliff, mentally and spiritually.
We need to humble ourselves before Him and reckon once and for all that without Him, we can do nothing, and that without sound doctrine and obedience to His command to be filled with His Spirit - we are actually dangerous if we enter any type ministry to the troubled souls out there.

The days ahead will be like nothing seen in the history of man - except for the hints that The LORD gives of the days of Lot and Noah.

I've seen far too many roll up their sleeves, anxious to cast out demons, without sound doctrine or the leading of His Spirit - and that is a frightening truth that will stay with me for the rest of my life. Sometimes it's good to be 'frightened' into the reality of the command of, "in Spirit and in Truth" alone. May we humble ourselves to that point of reality in Spiritual things.

I've seen far too many roll up their sleeves, anxious to cast out demons, without sound doctrine or the leading of His Spirit - and that is a frightening truth that will stay with me for the rest of my life. Sometimes it's good to be 'frightened' into the reality of the command of, "in Spirit and in Truth" alone. May we humble ourselves to that point of reality in Spiritual things.

Every human has a point of weakness as part of their nature.
I wouldn't call it a "demonic stronghold" but part of our own flesh that we are told to battle to bring under submission.

I think this is a very good verse to memorize. It's a beautiful promise and one to ponder, as well as study.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Leave that job to others. We all have those in our lives also. Especially in traffic. :)

Hi Lysa,

I didn't 'see' video - only audio where Greg posted the series in Announcements.

Thanks for posting the link to the book.

And if you want to make an appointment to be a 'client', here's your directions -

http://www.biblicalrestorationministries.org/BRM/Making_Appointments.html

I wonder what the Apostle Paul would do for someone in 3-5 days.
Or 3 minutes or less.

If you girls/guys see all of this in the First Church under the headship of the Apostles - then I'm sorely confused because the Missionary (plus, plus, plus) stories sealed this for me as a very bad witness.

From OP:
I wondered if so, whether it has altered your understanding or views, or, you're having to alter your theology to receive this man's testimony? Or, maybe you just plain disagree?

He does love us Lisa. I fully agree with what you wrote in your post on that - Amen!

Alive-to-God opened this up for our thoughts. I knew she could handle mine, or may have already knew mine because of that linked thread I put on this thread. Either way - I know we're all alright with each other.

I still believe though - that if new converts were taught to depend on Him and His WORD solely - the deliverance ministries would only be working with the unsaved.
If Churches and ministries would just get the right leaders.
Leaders who put The Word of GOD -- Christ and His Word, above men's - we would be one powerful force in this world - as the First Church was under the Apostles - but the church of today has no resemblance to the N.T. Church whatsoever - with some few exceptions of course.
There's just no comparison and it's heart breaking, more than I can express here.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I need to take a look at what Lysa is watching, and see if it's visuals of the same series, or, something slightly different by the same man. I've watched no video yet.

Also, I am busy for part of today, so will be back here a lot later.

In the meantime, let me comment on what you said here:

I still believe though - that if new converts were taught to depend on Him and His WORD solely - the deliverance ministries would only be working with the unsaved.

Secondly, I have to be a bit straight-talking here... you just don't seem to acknowledge that a person who was cursed before birth (down a family line by their own family or some other), or, given evil spirits through ritual or luciferian worship (this is, they were sacrificed on the altar of someone else's idolatry), MAY NOT KNOW about this, until they find themselves tormented by spirits which they did not invite themselves (through having practised the occult, or, other sinful practises before coming to Christ).

The other aspect of this is to do with the way the gospel is preached to them. If the preacher explains Romans 5 and 6 properly, then maybe he also mentions John 12's corn of wheat, and maybe they DO get set completely free from everything. But in general, people come to God with a sense of conviction of sin - maybe certain sins - and they experience freedom from those first - but not necessarily from every 'stronghold' the enemy has in their lives.

Here I completely agree new converts should begin Bible reading immediately, and hopefully, sit under sound ministry, where they learn to walk in victory. I agree, some people may not need any 'ministry' other than that. But, for those who DON'T experience this teaching, or this victory, the RELEASE FROM ALL BONDAGE is still available - through Christ and His victory on the cross for the whole world.

The challenge to the Christian who has been out-manoeuvered by a circumstance which requires the spiritual discernment of another Christian, is to apply for such help speedily. Often they are ignorant of spiritual devices, and, it is quite humiliating to have to own up to the thoughts - mental and sometimes physical battles they are waging against an unseen foe. If they can't get free after praying for themselves, THEY NEED HELP from a victorious Christian.

Lysa and AtG,

Do you know about Pastor Blumhardt born in 1842?

You may want to read "The Awakening" on this page.

Bookmark for later.

http://www.plough.com/topics/Blumhardts.html

http://www.plough.com/ebooks/JesusisVictor.html

A777

What took place in his church caused revival to break out in many churches in neighboring villages.

Revival had everything to do with the power of God and not the "words of wisdom" of men.

Brought the churches into the reality of Christ's power.

I need to read it again!

A777

Where's the SCRIPTURAL PROOF of anything that you are promoting here??

I am in dead earnest now. That no MAN on this forum, would come and counter this severely Dangerous thread and that it was posted in the first place - and deserves Scriptural Reproof because of the fact that it is Extra-Biblical and thus - Dangerous to the Biblically immature, is shocking.

WHAT TYPE OF PEOPLE DID JESUS, PAUL, etc, "DELIVER"???

BIBLICAL ANSWER: UNSAVED PEOPLE!

Helloooooo!

Did the man possessed with a Legion of demons get saved first?

Did the child who was being thrown into the fire, etc get saved first?

How many more examples of UNSAVED people would you like me to list that were delivered by Jesus and because He Did Deliver them - they Did turn to Him.

That the Reason for their deliverance was "to propagate the Gospel" --- the same reason his Disciples were sent out two-by-two to cast out devils and do signs & wonders to the UNSAVED was FOR THE PROPAGATION OF THE GOSPEL.

NOW - Show me where anything else that is being propagated HERE is in the NEW TESTAMENT !

Quote you: "The challenge to the Christian who has been out-manoeuvered by a circumstance which requires the spiritual discernment of another Christian, is to apply for such help speedily."

"Speedily" - OK - the waiting list for this man you're promoting is THREE MONTHS.

What type of nonsense is this? IS he the only one that can set these people on his "waiting list" FREE???

Yes, because they BOUGHT 'his" LIE.

Why do you think I listened to the "manifestation" audio first? You probably have No idea.
Because - in Demonology - you know WHAT to look for in testing a teaching.
HERETICS ALWAYS START OFF WITH SOME SCRIPTURE AND SOUND GOOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THEIR TEACHINGS.

In "Scriptural" demonology - the first place to look - to cut through the "sell sermons" - is to what they are teaching in "how demons MANIFEST in Christians First".
If they are Far-Fetched on the "manifestations" - then it's not a Kosher Ministry, to put it gently.

All it would take is prayer and Biblical counsel from one solid Christian to help such a one who 'feels' "out-manuevered by a circumstance" as you phrased it.

Are we to post someone who makes them wait for months and drive to Iowa and rent a hotel to see some cesstationist for 3-5 days who believes in this Extra-Biblical nonsense of "curses" and the garbage on that "Manifestations" message and believes that demons speak through Missionaries, ETC? Excuse me?

THIS is a very dangerous territory that has been brought to this Forum and I hold you and Greg responsible for it.

IF we loved each other - we would never open a non-provable by Scripture Door to those who may be young or impressionable. We wouldn't just post any old thing so everyone feels excepted here. This stuff is Dangerous!

People need to be taught their AUTHORITY IN CHRIST FROM HIS WORD and NOT be fed a bunch of the TEACHINGS OF MEN such as this man's or Derek Prince's "curses" and other very similar teachings that have been posted here on Demonology.

You have NO idea the doors that these type teachings can open to the sensitive, the truly hurting, those in difficult emotional situations, difficult living conditions, those from bizarre families, over sensitive consciences and a whole list of others - and those who will be alive to live through the days that are ahead of us - if you are one to understand the book of Revelation - as Tim Warner teaches it - despite that he is a cesstationist and I plan to email this thread to him to see if he minded having his name used to seemingly endorse this extra-Biblical heresy and heresy is not even a strong enough word for this stuff.

My Pastor - from a Presbyterian-PCA Church could help anyone on this man's "Waiting List" and he doesn't even "speak in tongues", but I know that he's filled with the Spirit of 'GOD' and the men in our Church know WHERE WE STAND IN CHRIST AND HOW TO GIVE OUT THE PROPER SCRIPTURES AND PRAY!

SHOW ME SCRIPTURE ONLY of where you can back up these teachings and "manifestations" coming out of Christians.

SHOW ME SCRIPURE ONLY to back up ALL of the MANIFESTATIONS that this man lists - that are coming out of or in the homes of BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS and Missionaries !

Is there no man in the house that will do this and ask for SCRIPTURE ONLY to expose this Dangerous territory that's been thrust upon us - or is it that most could seemingly 'care less' about the BABES IN CHRIST who are being asked to listen or read this horrifically deceptive and spiritually dangerous extra-Biblical poison?

Apparently not - if this has gone on unchallenged for this long.

Get behind me Satan - It Is Written - is all that I care to say from here on out - because this is a very heretical and dangerous area that's being promoted here and shame on the Biblically iliterate who believe it and post it or write it.

READ The WORD of GOD folks - the snares are being set up right here by this "Lethal" thread.

And have a GOOD day in our Creator GOD - Amen!

Correction: on the use of the phrase "biblically illiterate"

Not all who promote "curses" and these manifestations of demon voices coming out of 'missionaries' mouths are necessarily "biblically illiterate" and that's the saddest part that I find in all of this.

There's other motives behind this and some of the most Biblically literate people out there teach "doctrines of demons" with "lying signs and wonders" and that should sound familiar to anyone Biblically literate in eschatology and what I was trying to get across gently in my first and second post to this thread.

How do you suppose that "if it were possible" even the Elect would be deceived?

Because the deceptions MUST come from very Biblically literate imposters .... posing as righteous ministers of light - one would think - to even cause those of "understanding to fall to try them" as Daniel said.

To be Wise as serpents but harmless as Doves, was Jesus' command to us.

Jude 1:20-25 "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen."

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I just want to let you know that I'm back online. I realised when I posted last that I did have more to add to that post, but thought there was plenty of time, and CALM, in which to do so.

WHAT TYPE OF PEOPLE DID JESUS, PAUL, etc, "DELIVER"???

BIBLICAL ANSWER: UNSAVED PEOPLE!

Helloooooo!

Jesus delivered unsaved people too - and the disciples did. I am not against it if the Holy Spirit is leading there.

Initially, your main concern was about the term 'demon possession' with reference to Christians - which had been covered on p2.

In refuting that, I've been at pains to make accurate claims for what Jim Logan IS teaching with regard SPECIFICALLY to caring, spiritually, for Christians and their family members who need deliverance.

A non-Christian who needs deliverance is in a completely different 'place', spiritually, and I have not yet heard of a Christian-with-a-deliverance-ministry who considers it WISE to cast out demons purely because he or she has the authority. In every case in the New Testament, especially when Jesus Himself was casting demons out, the people had come to HIM. This is the same thing Jim Logan is advocating. I don't see how this is problematic.

At the same time, if a Christian is led to proclaim release over a person who is not and has no present intention of becoming a Christian, then not to do so would be churlish. I do realise God can work round all sorts of situations in a unique order, according to His purposes.

Now, I'm going to read the rest of your post, quoted above.

Hi A777,

Thanks for the links.

At present, I don't have time to look into them in detail, and feel they are diversional with respect to the topic, in that it has been enough (so far) merely to discuss the basic premise of how to define 'the problem' of a Christian who needs deliverance.

We have have not got down to discussing the finer details of the content of the teaching sessions, yet. I will file the link, and have a friend in Germany who may like to read them.

Atg - First - Prove Scripturally that "a truly saved Christian" would need "deliverance" from demons that have such "manifestations" as given within these audios.

I would ask you again, please give New Testament Scripture and an ample amount at that - to prove what I am asking for.

Please do.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I had no idea you were listening to the series, because you didn't mention it, and I know it takes you ages to download, but if you are, then having missed out the first five of them to arrive at the premature conclusion that the teaching is 'unbiblical', is unsurprising, and likely to give you a warped view of both the whole teaching and the whole scriptural basis Jim Logan brings to the attention of his missionary audience. 'Our Position in Christ' he placed fifth, (for whatever reasons), and as it happens, before the one you mentioned you have heard.

Have you listened to the whole series yet, and had time to study the scriptures he explains, and others he lists?

If not, I feel your insistence that the teaching is heretical, is not founded on YOUR being able to show FROM THE TEACHING, that the BIBLICAL claims Logan makes, are false. You are welcome to do that for us all to ponder.

Very likely you are not the only person on SI who has experience of principalities and powers.

I will take up some of the questions you left for me - and of course, the others who wish to post.

One last point. Regarding your anxiety over young Christians reading this thread, I really don't see the problem. They are not going to pick up demons if they are in Christ (according to you), and walking in victory over sin, reading their Bibles and sitting under sound ministry, are they?

The fears you express are quite extreme, considering many people come from a totally demonic background, to Christ, and experience great deliverance as your earlier posts claimed. Why now would they fear, when they have received the Spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind?

Hello again, Jesus-is-GOD,

As I have no idea how long this post will take to write, and where it will fall among the posts when I submit, I am starting at the beginning, missing out the part I've already responded to, and probably not covering everything you said precisely.

Where's the SCRIPTURAL PROOF of anything that you are promoting here??

I need to listen to the series again, with a pen and paper, and look at all the verses Logan brings to the table. If you do not intend to hear the whole series, then when I've got them, I'll be happy to send you a list of scriptures to look up. Obviously, it would be easier to discuss, if you'd listen to what he says about each one too.

Did the man possessed with a Legion of demons get saved first?

I'd call this turning from idolatry to the living God.

Did the child who was being thrown into the fire, etc get saved first?

I believe this man prayed to God.

How many more examples of UNSAVED people would you like me to list that were delivered by Jesus and because He Did Deliver them - they Did turn to Him.

That's what I meant. PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO COME TO JESUS TO BE SET FREE.

That the Reason for their deliverance was "to propagate the Gospel" --- the same reason his Disciples were sent out two-by-two to cast out devils and do signs & wonders to the UNSAVED was FOR THE PROPAGATION OF THE GOSPEL.

So, Jesus and his disciples cast demons out and healed a bunch of people who refused to follow Him further.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Satan had not yet entered into Judas Iscariot.

From the time of Christ, till now, we are in a wheat and tares situation, apart from the possibility that large natural disasters are one way God tries to wake up the nations to His power and Godhead.

NOW - Show me where anything else that is being propagated HERE is in the NEW TESTAMENT !

From 'Quote you', will be in my next post.

Hello again, Jesus-is-GOD,

As I have no idea how long this post will take to write, and where it will fall among the posts when I submit, I am starting at the beginning, missing out the part I've already responded to, and probably not covering everything you said precisely.

Where's the SCRIPTURAL PROOF of anything that you are promoting here??

I'm not sure if this was directed at A777, but I'll answer as if it was directed at me.

I need to listen to the series again, with a pen and paper, and look at all the verses Logan brings to the table. If you do not intend to hear the whole series, then when I've got them, I'll be happy to send you a list of scriptures to look up. Obviously, it would be easier to discuss, if you'd listen to what he says about each one too.

Did the man possessed with a Legion of demons get saved first?

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, HE RAN AND WORSHIPPED HIM,

I'd call this turning from idolatry to the living God.

'Who' came to "worship" Jesus when they landed in the country of the Gadarenes?

If you read on you'll see what the very next verse after the one you reference says ... Mar 5:6,7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, "What have I to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure Thee by God, that Thou torment me not."

Definition of "worship" - G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

At the Name of Jesus - or in His Presence - EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD!

When dealing with children, who are still 'one flesh' with their parents, if the parent is present, their attitude is what counts - especially if the demoniac is out of their mind and needed to be carried to the place of deliverance. Matt 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a [certain] man, kneeling down to him, and saying, 15 LORD HAVE MERCY ON MY SON: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

I believe this man prayed to God.

Jesus-is-GOD's reply:

So do I but these two examples are not all that 'is written' concerning the numerous adult people that were "delivered" by Jesus and His Apostles and Disciples.

That's what I meant. PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO COME TO JESUS TO BE SET FREE.

We're discussing mainly "the affects of so-called demonization". The "manifestations" of those who are demonized that are Saved and the manifestation of demons in those who are not saved and I am asking for New Testament examples - not conjecture.

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
That the Reason for their deliverance was "to propagate the Gospel" --- the same reason his Disciples were sent out two-by-two to cast out devils and do signs & wonders to the UNSAVED was FOR THE PROPAGATION OF THE GOSPEL.[ end quote]

Alive-to-God replied:
Indeed, this is a matter of history, recorded in the New Testament. Jesus also said:

Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew 11:21

So, Jesus and his disciples cast demons out and healed a bunch of people who refused to follow Him further.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So, am I to believe that you Do see that those deliverd from demons were 'not saved' and these deliverances Were for the purpose of the propagation of the Gospel? - but earlier you said -

First of all, as I said in an earlier post, Jim Logan does not recommend 'delivering' the 'unsaved'. He insists they be willing to come on to the ground of Christ first. As I said, this is biblical, and have given scripture in type.

That's sad, because deliverance from demons is only seen with the UNSAVED in the New Testament for the specific reason of the Witness for Christ - whether they followed him afterward or not.

From the time of Christ, till now, we are in a wheat and tares situation, apart from the possibility that large natural disasters are one way God tries to wake up the nations to His power and Godhead.

Yes, and Jesus said that we're to leave the tares alone - except to expose works and doctrines of darkness among us.

Jesus-is-GOD asked --- Show me where anything else that is being propagated HERE is in the NEW TESTAMENT !

You answered - "I didn't hear Logan say anything that wasn't in the New Testament. If you can point me to the minute in the session where he does, I'll listen again to it and be able to reply."

No, I am asking you, who posted this thread and have listened to this man's full series and from your Own studies, to show me in the New Testament where any Born-Again Christian needed deliverance and had such manifestations as this man claims - again, such as "other voices coming out of missionaries" and the things on the #6 of this series titled "Manifestations".

I'll even broaden that to the Old Testament as well.

If you are going to promote a "teaching", you, yourself should have the Scriptures in your mind that would validate this teaching that you are promoting.

Hope things have 'calmed' down more for you.
I'll be gone until later.
Thank you for your reply.

eta - difficult to get multiple quotes in order without post-preview - working on it.

Before moving on with my reply, I just want to make a couple of comments.

First, we see that being totally demon-possessed as Legion was, is no barrier to coming to Jesus.

There is no need for a person who has NOT come to Jesus previously, who is demon-possessed, to be 'delivered' from demons, to make them free enough to turn to the Lord.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he [Jesus] said unto him, Come out of the man, [thou] unclean spirit.

Observe: Christ had called ONE spirit out of the man.

9 And he [Jesus] asked him, What [is] thy name?

Jesus needed more information. JESUS - the SON OF GOD - ASKED THE DEMON A QUESTION.

And he answered, saying, My name [is] Legion: for we are many.

10 And he [Legion (the man)] besought him [Jesus] much that he [Jesus] would not send them [the unclean spirits] away out of the country.

Observe: the demon-possessed man felt friendly towards the demons, or, the demons made the man feel insecure about living without them. Either way, they were in a kind of internal relationship with each other.

Note: the demoniac HAD ALREADY RUN TO, and WORSHIPPED JESUS, when this conversation between Jesus and the demons, and, Jesus and the man, had the verbal exchanges recorded for us.

11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him [Jesus], saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

How does Mark know what the demons said to Jesus? Is it not because Peter and the other disciples were present, and heard everything that was said?

In other words, this was NOT a series of communications conducted SILENTLY in the INVISIBLE REALM, between Jesus the Son of God and the demons living in the man's body.

13 And forthwith Jesus gave them [the unclean spirits] leave.

And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and [the swine] were choked in the sea.

Observe: the unclean spirits wanted to dwell in BODIES (flesh). As soon as they inhabited those bodies, the lives of the pigs became unbearable, out of control, and taken over by the minds of the spirits.

Even pigs would not normally run 'down a steep place' if they were in their right 'mind'. Clearly, there was no fencing, because it was not normally needed to keep them from behaving like that.

I think earlier in the thread, (JiG), you said that no-one was saved when Jesus and the disciples were casting out demons and healing. I agree, and this is most manifest by Satan being able to enter Judas. Also with Peter:

Matthew 16:23 But he [Jesus] turned, and said UNTO PETER, GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN: THOU art an offence unto me: for THOU savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of MEN.

Because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, we have to see the work that the disciples did with the power that Jesus had GIVEN them, as on a quite different basis from their later exploits in Acts. THEY WERE NOT SAVED, THEMSELVES!!!

I don't think one can argue the gifts of the Spirit are only for ministry to the unsaved, or, to divide them up so that some gifts are to minister within the Church, and some for the world.

This is fairly easy to read at the end of Acts 9. Jesus had sent the disciples into the world before Pentecost. Now, we see the power of God being used WITHIN THE CHURCH.

Mark records the first use of oil when praying for healing - in the world. Mark 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed [them].

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; AND IF HE HAVE COMMITTED SINS, THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM.

Okay. So, what do we do with 'Christians', who have never heard of victory over sin? Who do not even have it on their radar to cease from sin? Do we lead them to a victorious life in Christ, or do we simply say they were never born again and let them go back into the world?

And what if they are in deep bondage because of the sin they are in - like the pastors and worship leaders (to name but two ministry groups) who engage in pornography, use prostitutes, molest children (and so on) - do we just cast them out of the Church for ever, or can they find a place of repentance, deliverance, and peace with God though a proper relationship with Jesus Christ?

I think I have shown, and you know yourself, that if a person IS going to be delivered, they MUST come under the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. There is no salvation (deliverance, victory over sin) in any other Name.

Alive-to-God wrote:
First of all, as I said in an earlier post, Jim Logan does not recommend 'delivering' the 'unsaved'. He insists they be willing to come on to the ground of Christ first. As I said, this is biblical, and have given scripture in type.

Then we went on after my question about this and you yourself showed that you agreed that Jesus and His Disciples cast demons out of Unsaved people.

This was the whole reason that I brought up the man of the Gadarenes - because of this quote from you above - not for a lesson on what went into the pigs and such but to show two things - "worship" was not as you supposed.

Alive-to-GOD wrote:
I think earlier in the thread, (JiG), you said that no-one was saved when Jesus and the disciples were casting out demons and healing.

You may be readin far too fast here because you've just misquoted me entirely. I said repeatedly that deliverance was for the Propagation of the Gospel along with other signs and wonders.
Yes, despite whether they responded by following Him afterwards or not. They had been witnessed to sufficiently to be without excuse for not following Him.

This post @ 13:29:26 - has nothing whatsoever to do with what I've asked for. I can understand why you'd want to skirt around the question I've asked about proving through NT Scripture if these "manifestations" in this series are Biblical in a truly born-again Christian.

Okay. So, what do we do with 'Christians', who have never heard of victory over sin? Who do not even have it on their radar to cease from sin? Do we lead them to a victorious life in Christ, or do we simply say they were never born again and let them go back into the world?

How dare you ask this Lynn. Don't you understand how to discuss issues fairly at all? I do not plan to answer questions that you know very well how I feel about the Lost - the Struggling and the Weak - and please don't say you don't because that would not be of the Truth.

And what if they are in deep bondage because of the sin they are in - like the pastors and worship leaders (to name but two ministry groups) who engage in pornography, use prostitutes, molest children (and so on) - do we just cast them out of the Church for ever, or can they find a place of repentance, deliverance, and peace with God though a proper relationship with Jesus Christ?

Again, another accusatory question though you know my answer to this. Enough implied projections and innuendos Lynn. Let's talk about this Series that is the Topic.

IF you blame sin on demons - you, again, have open the best excuse that a so-called Born Again Christian man or woman who WANTS TO sin could have.

What does Jesus, Paul, James, Jude, Peter, say about these type of sins and how to handle any such professing Christians that are "in the Church".

If we don't stay Sola-Scriptura - we will fall in a very big ditch in the coming days.

Back to the Topic of this thread - This Series and my questions remain - please post Scripture that shows such "manifestations" that this man has spoken of coming from truly Born-Again Christians. Please proof-text these "manifestations" with Bible.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

If you haven't taken time to listen to the whole teaching series, and you don't know any Christians who've been delivered from demons or curses, then probably you need to take up your complaints with Jim Logan, and ask to be put in touch with some of the people who've been set free.

I hope you will reply to the post after your last, as well as to this one.

1 Corinthians 10: 20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Is Paul here saying that Christians CANNOT have fellowship with devils? I don't think so. That is the whole point of his exhortation to them NOT to 'have fellowship with devils'.

Exodus 32:23 For they said unto me, MAKE US GODS which shall go before us: for [as for] this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath ANY GOLD, let them break [it] off. So they gave [it] me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out THIS CALF. 25 And when Moses saw that THE PEOPLE [were] NAKED; (for Aaron had made them NAKED TO [their] SHAME AMONG THEIR ENEMIES:)

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ... 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH .... 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and REPENT.

See Leviticus 18 - esp vv 25 - end, where vomit and spue are mentioned twice as the land's response to abominable practices, (such as idolatry in all its forms), not forgetting the SPIRITUAL issues which arise from idolatry, or, which CAUSE idolatry.

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the CHURCH in Pergamos write; ... 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] WHERE SATAN'S SEAT [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain AMONG YOU, WHERE SATAN DWELLETH. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because THOU HAST THERE THEM THAT HOLD THE DOCTRINE OF BALAAM, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED UNTO IDOLS, AND TO COMMIT FORNICATION. 15 So hast thou ALSO THEM THAT HOLD THE DOCTRINE OF THE NICOLAITANS, WHICH THING I HATE.

16 REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; TO HIM THAT OVERCOMETH WILL I GIVE to eat of the hidden manna, AND WILL GIVE him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the CHURCH in Thyatira write;... 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, BECAUSE THOU SUFFEREST THAT WOMAN JEZEBEL, WHICH CALLETH HERSELF A PROPHETESS, TO TEACH AND TO SEDUCE MY SERVANTS TO COMMIT FORNICATION, AND TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS.

21 AND I GAVE HER SPACE TO REPENT OF HER FORNICATION; AND SHE REPENTED NOT.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS. ...

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and WHICH HAVE NOT KNOWN THE DEPTHS OF SATAN, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the CHURCH in Sardis write;... I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments;

So, there were CHRISTIANS in Sardis who had 'defiled their garments', and if they did not WATCH, Christ will come on them as a thief.

Compare with 1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

These CHRISTIANS in Sardis were 'in darkness'.

1 John 1:7 BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

'and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:'

And God is not ignorant of the SPIRITUAL consequences of the sins listed in the above churches, nor is He unwilling to receive and cleanse repentant CHRISTIANS from their deceptions - I BELIEVE.

I'm dividing the post I prepared, as it seems rather long. You asked for scripture. I've already in previous posts given some scriptures.

Continuing -

Galatians 1:unto the CHURCHES OF GALATIA: 3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I TELL YOU BEFORE, AS I HAVE ALSO TOLD YOU IN TIME PAST, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God..

Is Paul here saying there is now NO REPENTANCE for Galatian CHRISTIANS who had retained a lifestyle of 'sins of the flesh'? Or, could they be delivered from the accompanying strongholds as he writes of in 2 Corinthians 10?

What if he finds there are demons involved... because of the IDOLATRY... should he cast them out, or, will they go by themselves when the person repents?

'3 For though WE walk in the flesh, WE do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of OUR WARFARE [are] not carnal, but mighty THROUGH GOD to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down IMAGINATIONS, and EVERY HIGH THING that EXALTETH ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, and BRINGING into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

[Imagination = stubborness]

So, even the apostle Paul was STILL BRINGING INTO CAPTIVITY every thought to the obedience of Christ. That clearly states the job was not yet complete.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. ... 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: ... 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, IF ANY MAN THAT IS CALLED A BROTHER be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Matthew 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Christians who have been given discernment and authority to cast out demons bear this verse in mind. It can be argued that if the Holy Spirit comes in to an EMPTY 'house', then no demon can return there, but what if the house is not empty, like when Jesus cleansed the Temple, or when Josiah cleansed the Temple? In both cases, there was WORK involved in making the place clean. Even Jesus didn't just 'speak' to the people and goats and doves, He DROVE THEM OUT.

If a person doesn't co-operate with Him, what's to say they will leave? (I would like you to answer this question, please.)

In the experience of many Christians, if they didn't know there was a problem, and God hasn't brought it to their attention, or fixed it without their knowing, what ARE they to do WHEN God brings a problem which they cannot solve by the means they have hitherto nurtured their spiritual life?

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 TILL WE ALL COME IN THE UNITY OF THE FAITH and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we [henceforth] be NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN [and] CUNNING CRAFTINESS WHEREBY THEY LIE - IN WAIT TO DECEIVE; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, ACCORDING TO THE EFFECTUAL WORKING IN THE MEASURE OF EVERY PART MAKETH INCREASE OF THE BODY unto the EDIFYING OF ITSELF in love.

Having said all this, (to you, Jesus-is-GOD), if you choose to believe that where the Christians actively engaging in sin are protected from picking up demons because they have been born again, that is entirely between you and God.

I don't believe that, and I've seen Christians being delivered from demons a few times. You don't have to accept my testimony, but I don't find either my experience, or the New Testament, at variance with each other.

You are correct that 'doctrine' has a lot to do with what a person believes, and how they carry out their Christian life. This is very clear from the letters to CHURCHES in Revelation.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Jesus-is-GOD, this is crazy! You want ME to AFFIRM those delivered

are Biblical in a truly born-again Christian.

C'mon, you know you don't have to accept anything you don't want to.

You're saying I'm skirting round things but you are skirting round the experience of Jim Logan and me, and the people WE have seen delivered. That's up to you...

That's sad, because deliverance from demons is only seen with the UNSAVED in the New Testament for the specific reason of the Witness for Christ - whether they followed him afterward or not.

I think Christians may have got into some trouble, not merely calling people TO CHRIST as the apostles did, where true and total deliverance is found.

There are, also, other ways Christians can deal with demonic strongholds, such as removing the ground upon which the demon rests in their life - ceasing from sins, following after righteousness, seeking healing. But this may not be the whole answer to getting free from bondage. I think you know that.

Hi JiG,

You have your heels firmly dug in. You are sure that anyone engaging in sin, or cursed by an evil person, cannot be a Christian, and therefore, would only need 'deliverance' being 'unsaved'.

Why did Paul mention 'bewitch'ing to the Galatians? No spirits involved there?

IF you blame sin on demons - you, again, have open the best excuse that a so-called Born Again Christian man or woman who WANTS TO sin could have.

The connection between sin and demons is this - that certain sins lay a person open to receive evil/unclean spirits, or, part of their life (maybe much of their life) was been damaged (not by their own choice to sin, as I've said several times), which can create areas demons like to play on, or dwell.

There is another layer to this, which is to do with whether the person knows they shouldn't do a certain thing or not. God is very generous to the ignorant, as we see with Paul, and in his speech in Athens, but if a person continually sins after knowing it is sin, they are inviting spiritual bondage much stronger than that they have previously escaped with little effort. Demons love bondage.

Jesus-is-God

You wrote a while back

If a person is demon possessed (indwelt) they are not Saved.

Not that anyone here gives 2 cents for I think on the matter, but you are the one standing on solid ground with that statement.

Demons reside where the Holy Spirit does not.

Keep it up!

OJ

Amen Joe and White Stone. Stay on Solid Ground, Amen!

_____________________________________________________

To AtG & whomever else - Please understand that I'm not being sarcastic here but no one's answered my question - so I'm forced to ask it again, because it's important.

Regarding "Missionaries speaking with demon's voices and the series lecture #6 titled "Manifestations" and "curses" [generational and other types] - could anyone please give me New Testament Scriptures that would back up these type demonic manifestations in a truly born-again Christian?

I could answer the the posts I see that have been posted here since I left, one by one and we could discuss all the verses listed that were taken out of context of their chapters [ie. 1Corth10] and all about people who sin until they are 7 times worse than before they got saved and those whom GOD will spue out of His mouth ... but I asked the question above and the posts since I left here do not answer this one simple question.

In fact, in one post on the previous page, the first half of my question was cut off .... leaving only the "born again Christian" half and not the first and major part of the question of - where in the New Testament do we find Missionaries/Ministers having demons speak through them and where in the New Testament do you find the "manifestations" that you hear in audio #6 and those "curses" with born again Christians?

So, a few men have printed up some "Victory" verses out of our Bible so that people can be victorious against fear or sin but we have to swallow a whole slew of Non-truths WITH those books, for some strange reason - when we've had a Bible sitting in front of us since the day we got saved and didn't really need anyone to make up a book for us with the same verses in it that we've had all along - that had we read ourselves and obeyed we wouldn't need their help in the first place .... Besides our Bibles Have A Whole Lot More Scriptures about where we stand in Christ than is even in these books that contain Extra-Biblical teachings in them, that destroy or confuse or cause a lack of Faith in some Christians - whereas, the Word of GOD alone Does Not - But we love to follow men, experiences and sensationalism and not just His Word, so we're willing to swallow 'sensational' stories and base our doctrines on our "experienes" instead of being Sola Scriptura as the very first Church was - and then we wonder WHY we're not as Victorious as the Early Church was and are not witnessing to the world as The Church Victorious as they did.

There comes a point in teaching "demonology" where a person can cross a certain line and be giving Satan more Glory than Christ would have you do [remember Job] and give Satan more power than he actually has. Very dangerous territory, indeed.

I would say - though I'm not dropping the same question - but you could take one Newly born-again Christian that Loves Jesus and leave him alone with JUST a New Testament and he'd Never Come Up With This Teaching.
Talk about "Bondage" or "Strongholds" - you won't find either of those in the New Testament neither except by choice to return to the Law ... and the rest are just folks who decide to sin or keep sinning or decided to believe a false teaching of some other human, [because they're too lazy to Study themselves and don't trust GOD to fulfill Jn 16:13] after they made a "confession of faith" - period !

Just folks who have made the choice to not obey or believe His Word AFTER they get "Saved" and those who decide to believe False Doctrines. [remembering the definition in the Greek for "heresy" is "choice - to choose for oneself"]

Maybe this could help someone to answer my question.

Editing to add: Rather than give anyone multiple posts to answer when they come on ... I meant to add "curses" to my original question concerning Scripture from our New Testament. I just added it in, as it was part of my earlier post.

Today, as some are contemplating the Death and Resurrection of our Christ and LORD - please think about what He suffered and died to purchase for us and set us free from.

Thank you!

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

So, a few men have printed up some "Victory" verses out of our Bible so that people can be victorious against fear or sin but we have to swallow a whole slew of Non-truths WITH those books, for some strange reason - when we've had a Bible sitting in front of us since the day we got saved and didn't really need anyone to make up a book for us with the same verses in it that we've had all along - that had we read ourselves and obeyed we wouldn't need their help in the first place .... Besides our Bibles Have A Whole Lot More Scriptures about where we stand in Christ than is even in these books that contain Extra-Biblical teachings in them, that destroy or confuse or cause a lack of Faith in some Christians - whereas, the Word of GOD alone Does Not - But we love to follow men, experiences and sensationalism and not just His Word, so we're willing to swallow 'sensational' stories and base our doctrines on our "experienes" instead of being Sola Scriptura as the very first Church was - and then we wonder WHY we're not as Victorious as the Early Church was and are not witnessing to the world as The Church Victorious as they did.

You ask:

Regarding "Missionaries speaking with demon's voices and the series lecture #6 titled "Manifestations" and "curses" [generational and other types] - could anyone please give me New Testament Scriptures that would back up these type demonic manifestations in a truly born-again Christian?

We could take your suggested premise the other way, and, for our template of the Christian life (walking in the Spirit and all that), make all kinds of rules for ourselves, disallowing (as you attempt to do) all things which are not written down - thus straying into even more conjecture than that of which you accuse me.

We could say that one has to have had a 'transport'ing expierence like Philip - or do a miracle - or have been raised from the dead - or walk on water - or be regularly beaten up for preaching - to name a few extremes. We could take any single event in the New Testament, to make a rule. But this is not the standard set by Paul in Romans 10, which is where the actual experience of 'being saved' begins.

I am, actually, quite shocked at the lack of compassion you've expressed for saints who have come to Christ, given up their normal day job to work in foreign mission amongst an unfamiliar range of idolatries, and, having been attacked by the powers of darkness in their workplace, come to a situation of failure in which they require the support of other ministries in the body of Christ in order to continue serving Christ as He has sent them. Why go for the jugular and declare they mustn't be born again (saved, true believers, whatever)? You cannot know that. You are trying to fit their experience into your theology, and it doesn't go - even though there is nothing in the New Testament which either proves they are not saved, or, precludes the necessity of deliverance.

For instance, we do not know WHEN Paul 'RENOUNCED the hidden things of DISHONESTY', (lying?) and stopped 'walking in craftiness' (cheating?), and stopped 'handling the word of God deceitfully' (misinforming?), but we know it must have been AFTER he was saved, because we know it didn't happen before. (Acts 9) Similarly, it was the BELIEVERS in Acts 19:18, 19, who made a great conflagration of their books of 'curious arts'. They didn't have to 'do' that before coming to Christ.

Regarding instances mentioned by Jim Logan, I have no difficulty understanding how a Christian in a mission setting might not be able to devote themselves purely to seeking the Lord and Bible study if they are a member of staff in an establishment like a school or a hospital when they begin to fail to make ends meet, lose heart, lose hope, perhaps become ill physically - due to spiritual attack.

I have already brought scriptures to show the ORDER in which Christ works in a life, and you have not referred to it once. Handily, you ignore the junk in the Temple, seeing only Jesus there. This is fine and scriptural as far as it goes, but JESUS SEES THE JUNK.

Earlier, I mentioned Josiah IN the Temple, in 2 Kings 23. The KING was IN the Temple, WITH the paraphernalia of Baal worship, renewing the Covenant with God, BEFORE taking out the junk. In view of what Leviticus 18 states about idolatrous practices, it is difficult to believe there were no unclean spirits in the Temple at the same time. But God is greater. 1 John 4:4 'Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.' Making any such victory personal may require a big change of thought and action.

I was thinking about Jesus in the Temple, too. We assume the birds flew out, but the livestock would have to leave by the door, or the gate. In the same way, the believer has to bring the stronghold to the cross, meaningfully, to gain insight for the victory over it, aided by the strength of the Holy Spirit.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that every knee should bow to the name of Jesus. Amen. But this fact doesn't necessarily persuade a demon to move out of a believer's life. Why should it, until the stronghold it enjoys is brought to the believer's attention somehow?

EDIT: The only reason I'm continuing to post in this thread, is to show from scripture that you have made assumptions about the impact of coming to Christ, when even in the New Testament there are - like the battles of David - many different experiences expressed. Most people probably do experience deliverance from demons if they have them, but your reply to the Christians who do need deliverance, is not justified by scripture. When Paul found the believers early in Acts 19 had not been baptised in Jesus name, he simply explained the way of faith more perfectly to them, baptised them in Jesus name, and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit - no recriminations.

Hi White_Stone,

Thanks for your input to the discussion. I will try to take your points in order, and hopefully you will see that I agree in a measure with Jesus-is-GOD - just not with her they-were-never-saved-before stance, which I find a variance with a number of places in scripture I've quoted, which God has made quite pictorial for our edification.

If they are indeed Saints, nothing happens in their lives that is not God's will.

Perhaps they were ill advised to go into that ministry. Certainly, if things of that sort happen on a regular basis, someone is dropping the ball in training.

Regarding training, Jesus-is-GOD's point, (having been to Bible College herself), is that a newly born again Christian only needs a New Testament to go on with God safely. And God is indeed gracious. But even in this thread JiG remarked on the Greek of a word in one of the verses I quoted, so 'training' is a moot point. There is only so much that can be passed on by way of 'information', and then what is needed from the Christian is PRACTISE.

I agree very much that in Christ's victory we stand, and, in Him we have all we need. But, there is a need for the mind to be renewed, and that takes time. It takes time to learn to hear the voice of the Shepherd, Paul having said: 1 Cor 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.' And, each person has their own unique calling and walk with the Lord, in the Spirit, and this is a daily challenge.

Do you actually think the 'range of idolatry' in this USA is any less?

I say it is just as dangerous to walk on the street in any city in this Country.

I can not feel any particular compassion for people who choose to put themselves in harms way.

If you go unarmed in harms way when you do not have to go, or when you could have armed yourself, if harm comes it is self inflicted, in my opinion. For that reason, I would never take up snow skiing. I live in Florida, there is no need for that skill here. I would have to go 'out of my way' to reach snow. Following what I know of God's Providence it is not prudent to 'go out of one's way,' unless situations demand it, never for pleasure.

A scripture has come to mind, which I want to share, because it communicates the kind of darkness, and sense of helplessness which can be the SAINT's experience while on mission, perfectly in the centre of God's will, without changing any of the events which the saint will have to live through.

Acts 27
8 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next [day] they lightened the ship; 19 And the third [day] we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship. 20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on [us], all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

27 But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country; 28 And sounded, and found [it] twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found [it] fifteen fathoms. 29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.

30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. 32 Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off.

33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought [them] all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. 34 Wherefore I pray you to take [some] meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you. 35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken [it], he began to eat. 36 Then were they all of good cheer, and they also took [some] meat.

37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls. 38 And when they had eaten enough, they lightened the ship, and cast out the wheat into the sea.

39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship. 40 And when they had taken up the anchors, they committed [themselves] unto the sea, and loosed the rudder bands, and hoised up the mainsail to the wind, and made toward shore. 41 And falling into a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the forepart stuck fast, and remained unmoveable, but the hinder part was broken with the violence of the waves.

42 And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape. 43 But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from [their] purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast [themselves] first [into the sea], and get to land: 44 And the rest, some on boards, and some on [broken pieces] of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.

The next two posts are the remainder of my reply to your last post, Jesus-is-GOD. I will not post any more to you until you've had time to read these.

Regarding the Greek you brought to my attention, apparently questioning that 'pay homage' to Jesus is what I had in mind when quoting what the KJV translated 'worshipped Him' in the account of Legion's deliverance, my investigation this morning finds that the same root is used throughout the New Testament, including John 4 and 9, in similar situations of active worship of God or Christ. This seems fine to me.

There are two other Greek words, one which is more to do with devotion to religious observance (my paraphrase), and the other more to do with the ritual and ceremony of religion.

we could discuss all the verses listed that were taken out of context of their chapters

You imply:

those whom GOD will spue out of His mouth ...

The context given in scripture is that of idolatry – of consciously worshipping idols (and therefore, the demons associated with them).

Apart from the obvious external things, like wealth and possessions, reputation, status and power, there are many other subtle idols, and every one of them needs to be dispatched. God doesn’t always show a believer immediately where their strongholds are. He allows these realisations to occur naturally in the flow of living unto Him.

To begin with, these realisations can throw us for six (cricketing term I think), but one can get to expect that sometime in the future, there will be another – and not through any fault of the believer that they continue to arise.

Oswald Chambers describes it:
‘If you are going on with God, the only thing that is clear to you, and the only thing God intends to be clear, is the way He deals with your own soul. Your brother's sorrows and perplexities are an absolute confusion to you. We imagine we understand where the other person is, until God gives us a dose of the plague of our own hearts. There are whole tracts of stubbornness and ignorance to be revealed by the Holy Spirit in each one of us, and it can only be done when Jesus gets us alone.’ January 13.

True, there are people in the Bible who had a stark choice to make one way or the other – to obey or not to obey. But WE all know this is not a one-time-only question.

Oswald Chambers again:
‘There are whole tracts of our lives which have not yet been brought into subjection, and it can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.’ December 28th

Surely, OC’s thoughts are in line with one of God’s messages of the book of Joshua:

Joshua 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

There comes a point in teaching "demonology" where a person can cross a certain line and be giving Satan more Glory than Christ

you could take one Newly born-again Christian that Loves Jesus and leave him alone with JUST a New Testament and he'd Never Come Up With This Teaching.
Talk about "Bondage" or "Strongholds" - you won't find either of those in the New Testament neither except by choice to return to the Law ...

Why would a ‘Newly born-again Christian that Loves Jesus’ need to do this codification? It is, as you say, not in his remit. Why therefore, should that be the acid test of whether the ‘doctrine’ is biblical?

God HAS already given ‘teachers’ to the Church, and He DOES give them revelation from His word, and they DO KNOW they bear a weightier responsibility before the Lord for what they teach from His word. This was a point made more than once by Logan.

Regarding the term ‘bondage’, the Church was established on the testimony of the Old Testament scriptures which Christ had expounded to His disciples, and later by the Holy Spirit, to Paul. I think you know the New Testament takes a good deal of the Old Testament truth in its stride, and it’s a straw man to insist that only the New Testament guides our understanding of God today (or then).

Most of the idolatry which is spelled out in detail in the Old Testament, is taken as read in the New, the people then fully understood what was meant by ‘idolatrous practices’, bearing in mind the promises of the New Covenant, and their relationship to the Law.

I agree that in Christ these bondages are broken – and not clearly spoken about in the New Testament - except by their root causes. When practised again by Christians, Paul calls them ‘the sins of the flesh’ listed in Galatians 5, Romans 1 and elsewhere. He makes clear these sins MUST cease for the believer to inherit the kingdom of God.

How would you NOT call such areas ‘strongholds’ or ‘bondages’, if the believer continues to struggle with ceasing? You cannot be sure certain practises would not open the practitioner to unclean spirits. Even if a Christian is in full fellowship with God, walking in righteousness, he can be attacked by an evil spirit, making it necessary to stand his ground in Christ to remain free of it. (As A777 mentioned, such spirits try to inhabit the flesh, not the spirit of the person which seeks to be in fellowship with God by His Spirit.)

except by choice to return to the Law ...

2 Corinthians 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Other verses:
1 Cor 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

folks who have made the choice to not obey or believe His Word AFTER they get "Saved" and those who decide to believe False Doctrines.

Regarding the matter of curses unknown to the Christian on whom they rest, I can accept you are ignorant of the variety of ways these may affect a person, or manifest spiritually, but I don’t accept the Bible has nothing to say about them, and I don’t accept that the new believer is automatically delivered – although he or she may be.

God uses Christians who have had a separate deliverance since they became believers, to minister to others. I do understand that when Christ died all curses were dealt with eternally, but to deny the administration of these blessings to the lives which need them, I’m sure is not your desire – even if it does ruin the neatness of your theology to date. As I heard a preacher remark: ‘Just when you think you have your theology all in order, along comes God and upsets the applecart!’

Folks tried to follow this post and somewhat confused. Are ypu saying that born again Christians can be possessed it oppressed by a demon???

Folks tried to follow this post and somewhat confused. Are ypu saying that born again Christians can be possessed it oppressed by a demon???

According to the book (and the talks) 'possession' is not appropriate for Christians, but the word 'influence' is put forward instead.

Jesus-is-GOD doesn't (as I gather) believe that a truly born again saved believer can need any kind of deliverance from evil spirits under any circumstances at all, and has not acknowledged that these may attach themselves to a baby or young child during occult ceremony, of which a person coming to Christ may know or remember nothing, but I do, and I believe it is right to bring the power of the name of Jesus to bear that they may be released from bondage (in such a case, not of their own making).

I don't believe that everyone who comes to Christ is AUTOMATICALLY delivered from every spirit that may attend their life, although I understand that all spiritual power comes UNDER that of Christ. Becoming completely free to walk in victory may be a profoundly wrestling process for such a Christian to come through.

Thank you for breaking it down. Would like to interact bit most go. Have some questions to post later.

When I read a sermon, message or post - if it lines up with GOD's Word, Scripture comes into mind confirming what's being read, for each sentence - but when reading things that are Not FROM HIS WORD - all that I read, reads blank to me.
I only respect those things that can be proved by Scripture and haven't heard it yet and won't - I already knew that.

And in the end, all that's left is just character attacks and untruths. Some subtle and others, not so subtle, but outright mischaracterizations both of His Word and of the one asking for His Word.
But - it's HIM that's being attacked and that's the sad part.

~*~

To save room - I took for granted that all know the "Context" of these verses, so did not include the surrounding verses with all of these -

These are ALL of the "BONDAGE" Verses in the N.T..

Which of these verses is about "being in Bondage to or with demons" ???

'John 8':32, 33 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in BONDAGE to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into BONDAGE, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

Act 7:7 And the Nation to whom they shall be in BONDAGE will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Rom 8:15 For ye have NOT received the spirit of BONDAGE again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE of corruption into the Glorious Liberty of the children of God.

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under BONDAGE in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into BONDAGE, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in BONDAGE under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in BONDAGE?

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with her children.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of BONDAGE.

Heb 2:14, 15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to BONDAGE.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in BONDAGE.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [7 times worse?]
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [By choice?]
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. [By choice?]

____________________________________

"STRONG HOLDS" -

The only verse in the N.T. [2 Corth 10:4] where the word "stong holds" is mentioned and the brackets and semi-colon in that verse are in the KJV and glad they are - because there's a SMILIE at the End of that verse ;) and in Context - the "strong holds" that Paul was referring to were "ARGUMENTS" in the Church at Corinth that were against Paul's INSTRUCTIONS and against his authority and he continues this lecture to them through to the end of the book - through to the end of Chpt 13.
Amen - Read all FOUR Chapters and Be Blessed ;)

"2 Corinthians 10":2-6 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 - (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but Mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

And here Paul ends his 4 Chapter Lecture to the Church at Corinth with ....

2Co 13:11-14 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort,
be of one mind, live in peace;
and the God of Love and Peace Shall Be With you.
Greet one another with an holy kiss.
All the saints salute you.
The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God,
and the Communion of the Holy Ghost, Be With you All. Amen.

Amen!

I don't know about you, but every time I Re-read Chpts, I get More and More out of Them. Bless The Word of GOD!

But if you'd prefer to have Parents scared to death that some Black spooky thing will come into one of your child's feet while they're sleeping, Etc - that's your perogative.

"Heresy" - Definition - "Choice - the opinion chosen".

"Sin" - choice - 'the action chosen'.

"Freedom" - Choosing to Believe The WORD of GOD and acting upon it!

"Bondage" = Believing a lie and/or knowingly & persistantly rebelling against GOD's WORD.

"Lack of compassion" - those who lead others into false teachings and/or sin.

"Prayer" - Something GOD Definitely hears.

"The Cross and Resurrection" - where HE destroyed both the power of sin and Satan's/demon's powers over those who would believe, have faith in and obey His Word as Best as they can.

"Sociopaths" [in the Church] - will define in some other post.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso Keepeth His word,
in him verily is the Love of God Perfected:
'Hereby' know we that we are 'in' Him.

Hey AtG,

Been keeping up with you and everyone just have not had time to post on this thread. After Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit you could say that his reading and understanding of the Word of God (OT for him) was greatly enhanced.

The battle was no longer physical and fought on dirt battlegrounds but spiritual fought on the God-breathed dirt (man). The battleground of the mind, will and emotions. The temple was no longer a building but a person. The assault was no longer against stone walls but the precious and lively stones whose walls are the mind, will and emotions.

Here the Lord is talking about discernment regarding this land.

Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

Many Christians today cannot discern between what should be crucified and what should be cast out. You certainly cannot cast out the flesh and you will never crucify a demon. If Christians in the early church were healing the sick, casting out demons and preaching the Word in the power of God and not the wisdom of man, how much more do we need that now? But, again, there is no discernment by the majority of the church today because of the classroom theology that is taught. That theology makes little room for the supernatural and that is usually why it stays in the classroom.

But God's people perish for lack of knowledge.

Num 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

Num 33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.

Dispossess. In other words get them out of your land.

God has given us a land to possess today, and it is not across the Atlantic ocean. And He has certain conditions.

Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

I have so much that I want to say about this issue and I especially would like to talk about the occult and the bruises of Satan and how the innocent are bruised.

Paul understood now what this meant and it had nothing to do with the Romans.

Deu 6:18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,

Deu 6:19 To cast out all thine enemies from before thee, as the LORD hath spoken.

I will leave you with this, which is suppose to be the ministry of every Spirit-filled Believer today.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

More later...

A777

Regarding "Missionaries speaking with demon's voices and the series lecture #6 titled "Manifestations" and "curses" [generational and other types] - could anyone please give me New Testament Scriptures that would back up these type demonic manifestations in a truly born-again Christian?

After His Resurrection -
Mar 16:15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My Name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thank you for replying to my question and giving your understanding Lisa. That's appreciated.

By time Jesus had come to His people, they also had "very few shepherds" that cared for the people and the leaders of their time had "added to the Word of GOD" as well. Not much different than the days that we're living in.
But the difference also between them and what happened after they became Spirit Filled by rebirth into Messiah should be evident.

To have the Spirit of GOD residing in a person with Full propitiation of their sin "cleaned out", being Regenerated and also Spirit baptised as well, is a difference that should be understandable to us.
Regeneration and the infilling of The Spirit of GOD is like the difference in day and night spiritually, Sis.

Prior to them being literally 'saved', they were only religious people, attempting to keep the law that our N.T. explains was only a school master that showed our need for Christ.
And with the realization that some false beliefs had come into Israel via the captivity in Babylon and Egypt as well and through the added laws and beliefs that the Pharisees and Sadducees had tacked on, these poor people were at the mercy of the men who led the temple.
Some of these men were good men, as we see Joseph and Nicodemus, who also was told that he needed to "be born-again" but on the day of Jesus' arrest and trial, we see the true state of the leaders of that day and how the people demanded "Crucify Him".
That alone would show the state of the people spiritually.
The fact that it took Jesus to clear the temple before the lame and halt could come to the outter court of the temple, where they were 'supposed to' go to be ministered to by these Priests, also shows how they were treated when sick. By that time, those who had leprosy, palsy, demon possessed, etc, basically had no where to turn because it was believed that they were just cursed of GOD - almost like a Cast system. The Priests were not doing their job as they were instructed to as Levites and we see how Jesus spoke to them as HE told them who their father Really was.
The people were like sheep without a shepherd and under teachings that weren't from GOD as well. This is beginning to sound familiar. You'd have to understand just how far the leaders had fallen from what we would call today as "sound doctrine" and true Godliness. Some of the laws and beliefs that they tacked onto His Word were quite unbelievable by time Messiah came.

It's easy to understand why people would go to the pool of Bethesda believing they had to get in there when "an angel would move the waters" and that the superstitions ran high also, is apparent.

But once Jesus gave his Disciples the power of the Holy Spirit to heal and cast out demons from those that we cannot say were "born-again" as yet - THAT is what turned "the world upside down". Praise GOD!

I know you must see the difference between the people before and after their Deliverer Came, the One who would write His Law on their hearts and totally cleanse His people, from the inside out.

First, before His Resurrection, He blew on His Disciples and said 'receive the Holy Spirit' and then asked them to wait in Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on-high with the Baptism with fire. Those who obeyed this command to wait and were baptised in His Spirit, became as free as free can be and had the power of GOD to set others free from then on and thus, make converts that would then also be Freed and then went on to write our New Testament.

To "cast out" demons means that demons had to be 'IN' the people that were not yet regenerated & Spirit filled, but by being set free, they were able to Believe unto Salvation, as in the story of the "house being swept clean", etc..

I don't know how to word this any better than this - of what the condition of mankind was prior to His death and resurrection and then after Penecost had finalized His full redemption purpose - but we should see it in the Disciples as they took to the streets after the Baptism from on high and the full story of the Book of Acts.

Saul, later named Paul, is just one example of the total night-and-day difference of the before and after conversion of a Good Jewish believer of his time, Clear as a bell.

Just remember that Paul was given to us as our clearest example of what the difference was between even a Very religious law-abiding person of those times was, as the before and after of Regeneration in Christ/Messiah. We cannot compare the two by any means.
To be Redeemed, Regenerated and then INDWELT by The Spirit of GOD is the Difference, as it was with our law-abiding example Paul.

His Love to you as well Lisa.

http://media.sermonindex.net/2/SID2080.mp3 :o)

Hi Lysa,

Thanks for these excerpts and links, and your positive attitude towards understanding the devices of the devil. Paul said: 'I would not have you ignorant, brethren', because ignorance is an open door. God will deliver the first time when ignorance has been the reason the door was open. But once the door is shut, it needs to stay shut.

Of shut doors, a person may find they have been shut in with a demon by someone else. Jesus declares His intention to set such captives free. This may require a new attitude from the captive, who has become accustomed to captivity.

Liberty may sound scarey and unknown, and even when the prison door is open, the demon may not leave. It will take the ex-prisoner to make a break for it - which may take a special application of faith on their part to actually walk (or run) out. They may even have to seek help from the Lord (or another saint), to start taking those steps to freedom.

My experience of being released from demons (I mean, since I was born again - I don't think I was free of any UNTIL I was born again), is that this is one area where renewing of the mind happens spontaneously on unexpected points.

There may be other areas of thought which are purely strongholds of previous habits, assumptions, prejudices and religious doctrine, or strongly associated with specific sins perhaps, which also have to be replaced with God's views as the controlling 'mind' of the believer. This ground - which was, until salvation, all steeped in death of one sort or another - all needs to be reclaimed for the Lord by the saint in an active way, but not necessarily running ahead of His leadership. At least, this is how I'd explain my experience.

It seems that as soon as God has alterted us to an issue, any powers of darkness which have an interest, immediately turn up to stake their claim. Only then does the battle really begin. It truly becomes between faith and unbelief - between truth and lies - between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit. It also vindicates John's statement in 1 John 1:8, for where the light of God truly shines, indeed we will find a fresh view of old sins.

I praise God for John's other famous words: 'Greater is He that is IN you, than he that is in the world'.

But I didn't really believe I could claim them publicly, until I'd experienced certain victories of my own. Only then could I make John's theology 'my' theology. Before that, it was 'experimental' faith only, and God accepted it, knowing the battle that was raging in my mind, which actually took years to bring to an end.

Logan said

You know what we need to do; we need to get alone with the Lord and say, “Lord, where are my weak areas?” Find out what they are and get a concordance and find Scriptural truths that answer that weakness.

It may be of use to me now, but for a long time I was too demented to bring this sort of order to my prayer life. I was doing as well as could be expected, living from hand to mouth on the word of God He spoke into my situations week by week, or hour by hour as I needed it.

Regarding JiG's comment that "Satan hates God's Word".

God's Word certainly does not do him any favors. What he really hates is God's Word being understood and walked in.

Because this produces LIGHT and he hates the LIGHT because he likes to operate in darkness and obfuscate matters.

A flashlight is not effective if it is off. A sword does no good in its sheath. When the Holy Spirit illuminates our minds and gives us understanding by showing us the connection between what happens in real life and links that to principles in the Word, THE FLASHLIGHT IS ON and darkness is going to be dispelled.

A Christian that reads the Word but does not walk in it let alone understand it, is not a problem to Satan at all. We all agree on that.

A Christian that reads and teaches error actually helps cover the enemy with darkness.

What we need is the Holy Spirit to illuminate our understanding of the PRINCIPLES of Spiritual Warfare in the Word of God, so that we can turn that flashlight on and expose the enemy and his devices and his workings in a Christian's life.

The Old Testament cannot be ignored and the NT is vital, but without the Holy Spirit's illumination of our understanding, we are left to our own prejudices and have no idea of the true workings of the enemy.

AtG, I admit I have not listened yet, but will start today to use my ride to work (45 minutes) to start knocking them out

Glad you all are keeping this alive.

May the Lord give us more understanding, and dispel any "darkness" in our minds.

A777

I just wanted to add a thought that I had recently as I was ruminating over this thread.

I believe the Holy Spirit gives us principles in the Word, because it would literally be impossible to illustrate the millions of different situations and plights that Christians find themselves in.

They say truth is stranger than fiction and some of the things that men (generic term here) get involved in (saved or unsaved) are sometimes just unbelievable.

I know a Christian man that has big issues, big struggles and yet loves the Lord very much. But he has no understanding about some things in his life.

I just found out through his mother that his father was a very emotionally abusive man to his children. He did some strange things. She continues: when her son (my friend) was a baby, the father wanted to see what would happen if he stopped the baby's heart. Meaning, could he restart it. So, the curious idiot, stopped the baby's heart (denied it of air) and then jump started it again with a shock.

This was a very significant development I think and I have more to pray about and need the Lord's guidance in this. Please for me and my friend.

But, what do you do with something like this?

What are some principles that we know about? Evil spirits take advantage of passivity. Ok, sure, that's right, but this baby was dead for a few minutes. Could anything have happened at this critical interval between a heart beating and not?

"To facilitate his work the evil spirit demands the believer to be passive in his will and to deny the use of either part or all of his abilities." Watchman Nee

I could tell you other things that Christians and non-christians alike have gotten into, or had happen to them, and I promise no hollywood writer could even think these things up.

But, the main thing is that there is a human being that needs help. And we need the Lord to remove the darkness and give us understanding when ministering to people.

Another reason the Holy Spirit shows us the principles, because it also give Him the latitude to deal with many, many different situations.

He gives us principles so we can find the ROOT and lay the axe to the root.

No two people suffering from deep rejection will be ministered to in the same way. They both have different roots.

It is the purpose of Satan to bruise and he will start with the innocent, in their childhood. Satan knows how to cripple a person by bruising. Jesus came to "set at liberty them that are bruised" Luke 4:18 (not found in some bibles)

Ok, so you are probably going to ask, "What are these principles?"

Let us lay aside every weight...which doth so easily beset us" Heb 12:1

Do you know all the "weights" that so easily beset you? Not unless you have understanding from the Holy Spirit.

Bruises bind us to the one who hurt us.
Bruises bind us to bitterness from the hurt.
Bruises bind us from loving and receiving love.

Principle: Sin is not always the occasion by which Satan occupies a place in one's life.

Jesus cam TO SET FREE those who are bruised, those who are bound within. Spiritual bondage is broken by spiritual principles. The Head of the Body desires to be the Healer of the Body and Christian growth and ministry are bound by the weights and bondage of hurts.

A777

'These verses give us principles for walking in victory that are as important as any in the New Testament. Not all of the thoughts we have come from us. Woe to the person who cannot tell the difference between his own thoughts and those that come from Satan. God doesn't want us to be controlled by our thoughts. We are to control them (2 Corinthians 10:5).' Logan

Having said 'We are to control them', he clarified further:

'... God hasn't left it up to us to decide what kinds of thoughts to shun and what kinds to embrace. Letting our minds dwell on the things described in Philippians 4:8 will help us discern when the enemy is attacking us with his intruding thoughts.'

In my experience, WHEN the enemy is attacking with intruding thoughts, this meditation is very hard to do. It is sometimes easier to move the meditation into the airways by singing a rousing hymn of sound theology, or a chorus which contains words about the blood of the Lamb and victory in Jesus name. Bible reading can also be helpful.

I would suggest too, to singers, that the only songs appropriate for Christians are Christian songs, psalms and hymns.

Part of my defence against attack, was to promise the Lord to sing only unto Him, and to not retract no matter which tunes were buzzing round my head. Eventually, the buzzing stopped.

'When the enemy sends an intruding thought, say "I give no consent to that," and move on.'

This is also something to do with following the voice of the Shepherd - which is something we can actively cultivate, following the Lamb where he goes.

I would like to add another thought, which when I listen to the sessions again, I will note to bring to the discussion.

It is, that several times Jim Logan mentioned scriptures he had never noticed before, or whose significance he had not realised until they became relevant to his ministry.

I'm sure we can all identify with that.

He brought these to attention with comments which enabled him to identify with his listeners' present ignorance, who were probably 'hearing' them for the first time with understanding.

Bearing in mind this level of ignorance AMONG MINISTERS AND MISSIONARIES, it's hardly surprising some of them are unprepared in any way at all - not even doctrinally - to analyse unwanted spiritual events and deal with demons effectively, (and in the future actively avoid them).

Listened to number 1. Going to start number 2.

No objections at all with number 1.

Nothing surprising, I thought is was very good, very sound.

He is right that many Christians believe that these things happened in the 1st century and we are all "safe" today.

He is very correct about music, rock music, etc.

I thought it was interesting that in the same conversation with Peter, Jesus told him which thoughts came from God and which thoughts came from Satan.

He mentioned a book that he could not remember the complete name. The name is Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices.
Here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0851510027/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Interesting story about the missionary that was going to quit because of the blaphemous thoughts she had, but Jim was able to find a root in her life and minister to her. Atually her parents had done something. Her father went to a seance to contact his mother's spirit (she had died).

Interesting, because my wife's grandfather use to do Water Witching and this is occultic. My wife did not have any problems related to it, but her father and brother have some problems that I think can be attributed to the grandfather's dabbling in the occult. The sins of the father's are visited on the 3rd and 4th generation.

Also of note, are the 7 I wills of Lucifer in Isaiah 14. I found it interesting that one of them was "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation".

The congregation refers to the people of God.

I digress. I like where he said, "familiar passages in the Scriptures don't speak to us anymore, because they are so familiar".

The last thing that I want to mention is that I am glad he is using the KJV. It makes a world of difference, especially in this verse.

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

This is a good series to listen to as a whole family. I have taught my kids about spiritual warfare and demons, so this should not be spooky to them.

On to audio number 2 now.

Blessings,
A777

I've had no problems, for the most part, with the posts on this previous page. I especially liked one of Lisa's.

When deciding to get involved on this thread - as I said - it was my way of protecting those who know little about whatever there is to know about warfare and do know from experience [MUCH] that "fear" is an open door, as I posted more than once.

When listening to this series, I was let down with - again - with #6 on manifestations and that's been my complaint through-out - but my sentiments in my posts were there-after, misrepresented and mangled beyond what I had written.
How can one dialogue in that fashion? With reply posts stated "Jesus-is-GOD believes ....." - when that's not what was posted by "Jesus-is-GOD". I saw them as cheap shots or that the person just didn't bother to read what I did in fact type out - but maybe we can move on now with a bit more Honesty.

One paragraph [for now] that needs addressing -

Liberty may sound scarey and unknown, and even when the prison door is open, the demon may not leave. It will take the ex-prisoner to make a break for it - which may take a special application of faith on their part to actually walk (or run) out. They may even have to seek help from the Lord (or another saint), to start taking those steps to freedom.

From Quote - "even 'when the prison door is open', the demon may NOT LEAVE" and "the ex-prisoner needs to make a break for it" "to (run) out" --- "They 'MAY' EVEN HAVE TO SEEK HELP FROM THE LORD"?

Hum, one would think that we should Always seek help from The LORD FIRST!
This is a confusing paragraph for a babe-in-Christ and GOD is Not the Author confusion. And I'd ask one to define "not leave" --- not leave what part of the person?

-----------

I would venture to say that, just because a person has a "personal experience", that they should not "become teachers" and most especially on Demonology.
Unless you've been into it for years and have been on both sides of this debate in your beliefs and have seen quite a bit of phenomena and had to deal with it in others - one's own personal experience is not adequate to make one a guide to the oppressed or struggling.

The other posts have good advice as far as recognizing attacks and so forth and re-taking mental ground. The battle IS in the mind and by the choices we make whether to give in to sin or not. We know the devil can't "make us" sin - but can inject thoughts that need to be rejected.

Agreed, a Christian needs to Learn Scripture of where they stand in Christ - but Most Importantly to learn, just WHO it is that indwells them. These things should be taught to every new convert from day one --- that demons are just "created beings" and 'we' have within us now, The CREATOR of ALL things - including these demons.
New converts need to KNOW WHO LIVES 'IN' them .... If they are indeed "saved" and that's up for question, even if they can quote the entire Bible from Gen to Rev, back-wards and forwards and pray like Jesus Himself.

When you meet someone like 'that' - which I've met a number of those type - Then you understand what real spiritual warfare is. Counterfeits or counterfeit spirits are our biggest danger.
The "lies" that come into our own minds is nothing compared to meeting true "angels of light ministers or 'christians'" who, when they quote Scripture and seem to have exceptional wisdom and speed in answering with both - THAT's when you need that wisdom from Above that some call the 'gifts', to discern who you are Truly dealing with or talking to.
THOSE TYPE are what we will increasingly meet through the coming days and That is my concern - in protecting The Saints and young in Christ from.

There is NO ROOM whatsoever for the use of knowledge or intellect in walking in the "supernatural". Only a child-like-dependence, fully on HIM for every bit of wisdom and discernment will get any of us through these things.

Ministering to reasonably nice born-again Christians is easy -- it's these others that quote Scripture etc, that I concern myself with as far as protecting His lambs from them by exposing them by His Spirit only.

I've been on all sides of this topic since coming to Christ. It was thrust upon me and I have to go back 35 yrs with this history.
I started out as a baby Christian that was given the gift of discernment immediately but The LORD in His Wisdom led me to the "over-board" books on demonology for a season to teach me both sides. He even allowed me to coincidently meet a bunch of these over-boarders in Puerto Rico just to show the full-blown danger of this over-board stuff. Scared the heck out of me too. :)

THEN, Thank Him Only - He led me to the heavy duty real McCoy teaching of our authority in Christ - where we stand IN Christ - and later WHO it is that indwells us upon salvation.

I'm not out to write a book, but the LORD had me to meet people that no one would have believed were totally possessed and not saved in the least, ever - yet had all others believing they were, until the LORD would expose them through the prayers He would give me to pray.
These were people who were ready to take over ministries and or get themselves ready to infiltrate a church but were full-blown demon possessed counterfeits.

In my presence, I'm only 5'2", small boned, have a small voice, and have absolutely no appearance of any authority whatsoever - but I HAD to learn our Authority in Christ and standing in Christ as GOD, in my first few yrs of salvation.
We should have ZERO confidence in the flesh - ZERO!
If you try approaching ANYONE with intellect or flesh or in your own wisdom - you're useless and may get hurt or may cause others to get hurt.

I've seen the extremes of seemingly nice men and women that no one would even suspect were totally governed and were operating through demon possession. I suspect that is the type that GOD had decided that He wanted me personally to deal with. But for truly born-again Christians - I have no problem with what I've read from the two brothers here and Lisa's words. But the main thing that new converts have to understand is that they must Love the LORD enough to OBEY His Word and then to realize that they have an enemy who may tempt and definitely "lie" to them about themselves.
Even if they are living up to all of the light that they have at that point - the enemy knows how to use Scripture to condemn even the best of them, and drive them into despair.
Those who "choose" sin - well, they get whatever is necessary from the Hand of GOD, right up to having the Hell scared out of them - if they're indeed His to begin with.

I can and will agree with most of what I've read on this page so far. As I said on page 1 and elsewhere - these teachings - regardless of who teaches demonolgy - can be 98% true but that 2% can cause a Babe in Christ to wind up in a mental institution. I won't let that happen if I'm anywhere near such a thing. I've been there - done that, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

ALWAYS remember the Babes in Christ whenever you post on this topic and Always back it with New Testament Scripture.

IF, as Tozer did on the previous page in his audio - we teach 'where' we stand in Christ and that Satan has no more power than what GOD allows him - Then we're off on a good footing --- but I will say it again - I do still have big problems with series #6 and cannot be persuaded that these things should be posted here when there's the chances that a Babe in Christ could be given 'unnecessary fear' on things that aren't even Scriptural nor realities for truly born-again 'good' Christians.

We could cover those 'stories' one by one if anyone chooses to but I would have to Re-download that part because I deleted it Out Of my computer after listening.

Once again I forgot to mention "curses" - either generational or other types in Born-Again Christians.

Once a person is Taught what Jesus did on that Cross and by His Resurrection and that HE 'IS' GOD - they'll leave that nonsense behind them.

IF I take an audience of people, and teach them generational, etc curses and that demons can do more than what HIS WORD says that demons can do --- you betcha I'll have a large majority of Christians seeking "deliverance" - a word that is only used ONCE in our entire N.T..

But - if I take another audience and teach our Authority in Christ and whatever authority demons have under GOD with Born-Again Christians and teach them proper Christology of Who Jesus was - there wouldn't be many needing prayer afterwards and the more lessons on all in this paragraph, the more Victorious Christians we can send out into the fields to minister to others.

The word "deliverance" found in Luke 4:18

The SpiritG4151 of the LordG2962 is uponG1909 me,G1691 becauseG3739 G1752 he hath anointedG5548 meG3165 to preach the gospelG2097 to the poor;G4434 he hath sentG649 meG3165 to healG2390 theG3588 brokenhearted,G4937 G2588 to preachG2784 deliveranceG859 to the captives,G164 andG2532 recovering of sightG309 to the blind,G5185 to setG649 atG1722 libertyG859 them that are bruised,G2352

To get an idea of the definition and uses of this word "deliverance" found in this verse - we'll look at how and where it's used through-out the N.T. - just as we looked at the other two words "Bondage" and "Strong holds" on the previous page ---

"Deliverance" and how and where else this same word is used ...

G859
αφεσις
aphesis

Total KJV Occurrences: 17

remission, 9
Mat_26:28, Mar_1:4, Luk_1:77, Luk_3:3, Luk_24:47, Act_2:38, Act_10:43, Heb_9:22, Heb_10:18

forgiveness, 6
Mar_3:29, Act_5:31, Act_13:38, Act_26:18, Eph_1:7, Col_1:14

deliverance, 1
Luk_4:18

liberty, 1
Luk_4:18 (2)

Liberty may sound scarey and unknown, and even when the prison door is open, the demon may not leave. It will take the ex-prisoner to make a break for it - which may take a special application of faith on their part to actually walk (or run) out. They may even have to seek help from the Lord (or another saint), to start taking those steps to freedom.

The New Testament is full of warnings against deception. Jim Logan pointed out that demons can quote scripture perfectly, which seems to be one your discoveries, Jesus-is-GOD.

I don't think it's possible to protect people from the deceptions of their own hearts. Many dear saints have become strong in Christ, only after some major incident in which God revealed things they didn't know about themselves.

This is how He works to deepen our relationship with Him - if we will receive it.

I would venture to say that, just because a person has a "personal experience", that they should not "become teachers" and most especially on Demonology.

On that last point, since I've only seen demons cast out of Christians, and the men of God I know personally would NOT cast them out of non-Christians, it's a moot point who is qualified to 'teach'. Incidentally, I am not 'teaching' 'Demonology'. That is the remit of occultists of various kinds. I am instead, passing on information about tried and proven safe practice in the kingdom of light and life in Christ Jesus, and any demon-possessed person reading this should see clearly that they can stay free of demons ONLY if they come to, and continue to look to, Jesus Christ who came in the flesh for our wholeness and salvation.

Regarding the use of only the New Testament for doctrine and scripture quotes, it is pretty difficult to justify historically, due to the fact that it was written after the gospel of Jesus Christ began to be preached, and, there are more direct verses dealing with occult practices in the Old Testament.

The principalities and powers have not changed their proclivities or activities, and there is nothing occult in the Old Testament which is permissible, even though it is mentioned not at all in the New Testament. Indeed, I've heard CHRISTIANS say that if something isn't mentioned in the New Testament, it must be okay to do it!

This alone is reason to give Old Testament verses the weight due to them, in communicating God's heart to today's Church.

There is no reason that the counsel of God's should not be brought to bear on our understanding of this topic.

Once a person is Taught what Jesus did on that Cross and by His Resurrection and that HE 'IS' GOD - they'll leave that nonsense behind them.

I'm also saying that if believers discover occult connections in their pasts of which they knew nothing, it can explain things about difficulties they have been having with following Christ, which then THEY can address with the Lord. Not everyone needs to be prayed for by the preacher/teacher.

But, some people do need specific prayer if they are ignorant, inexperienced, confused, having health problems (either physical or mental) and other signs - like accidents - because these could be related. And ANYWAY, an elder cannot care properly for their souls if these things are swept under the carpet as insignificant.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I'd intended to comment on your raising of this verse.

The word "deliverance" found in Luke 4:18

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Then in Luke 4 He went on to say:

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.

Interesting that Isaiah has 'to proclaim liberty to the captives'.

We see here that Jesus was able to speak into the lives of those who were captive, and release them by His word to them, there and then, even though He had not yet died on the cross, but as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the principle of the cross was part of who He is.

To some He said, 'Go and sin no more', and they were enabled to stop sinning because His word had created freedom and health in them, just as a word from God can create life in us today.

On p9, anonymous777 said:

my wife's grandfather use to do Water Witching and this is occultic. My wife did not have any problems related to it, but her father and brother have some problems that I think can be attributed to the grandfather's dabbling in the occult. The sins of the father's are visited on the 3rd and 4th generation.

Hi 'Trip seven', :)

I don't know if you've ever thought of any of the things I'd like to comment, but I'd like to pass them by you anyway. I would like to disagree that the '3rd and 4th generation' are the same as 'generational curses' - although I may have thought that in the past.

Back when the tribes first crossed Jordan into the land, the entire family was held accountable with its head, as we see in the death of Achan with his household.

God ceased from ministering the sin of one generation on the next or subsequent generations, when He spoke through Ezekiel, chapters 3 and 18.

When Christ came, not only was every man alone before God to receive His grace towards salvation if he would, but every woman also, (See Numbers 30, and Christ commanded not to swear by anything at all). In this respect, any taking of oaths is unsound spiritually, most especially if to some other principality and power than Jesus Christ.

Now, to Christ we come with our own sins and sinfulness only - no-one else's.

Regarding the spiritual effects of engaging in the occult, there seem to be those who get free at new birth, and those who do not. I feel that for those who do not, the renewing of the mind may be the key - that they have to begin to understand what is wrong with their thought patterns and belief system. On what specific points does God's word differ?

I would also throw in a this curve ball, that even though it's the men you mentioned who appear to have the problems, women may be involved as well, but dealing with the same 'stuff' differently. When praying, I think it's important too, to distinguish between the spiritual inheritance of a person, and their physical inheritance, separate from the fact that we were ALL born in sin.

Please read Ezekiel 19, and what can be gleaned from v 10 (onwards).

There are things in which people become involved that not oly affect them, but later generations. The occult is a root that can extend to the third and fourth generations and its consequences are severe. In dealing with the problems of people one must ever be on the alert for its symptoms--even innocent children suffer from it.

Consider these verses:
Deu 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Occult involvement gives Satan legal claims over an individual. Spiritual gifts of the occult are passed on from generationto generation, likewise the curse.

IDOLATRY and the OCCULT are from the SAME ROOT

Idolatry is the worship of demons.

Psa 106:36 And they served their IDOLS: which were a snare unto them.
Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto DEVILS,

This New Testament verse coheres wit Psalm 106, accurately.

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to IDOLS is any thing?

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to DEVILS, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have FELLOWSHIP WITH DEVILS.

The occult is the manipulation of demon powers for selfish goals.

By establishing common ground, demons enter into agreement with people. The benefits offered through the supernatural always become a curse to the benefactor. The supernatural gifts AS WELL AS THE CURSE are passed from one generation to another.

For instance: The curse for bowing before other gods goes to the third and fourth generations.

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

These are not cultivated but inherited through birth. Passed on through the Mother. 3rd and 4th generation mediums are very powerful curses.

THERE ARE CERTAIN DIRE RESULTS THAT COME FROM AN OCCULTIC ROOT

Spiritual blockage. The supernatural control that keeps one from confessing faith in Jesus. An attitude of rebellion against all authority and Spiritual blockage that keeps one from entering the spiritual benefits of the Holy Spirit.

Many cannot receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit because they have made an alliance with an UNHOLY SPIRIT.

Many times, Christians with these roots have perverted thoughts when they come to pray, or blasphemous thoughts when they come to worship. Perversion and Occult go together.

TWO questions that ofte trouble people about the occult root are:

How is it possible for a Christian to continue suffering oppression or subjection because of this earlier preconversion experience?

I think the answer lies in this: The door opened to the powers of darkness will remain open until it is closed by AN ACT OF THE PERSON'S WILL. An open door is an invitation to oppression.

THAT WHICH YOU OPEN BY AN ACT OF YOUR WILL MUST BE CLOSED BY AN ACT OF YOUR WILL.

The other question is: Can a Christian who has never participated in any form of occultism be subjected or oppressed?

1. Occult oppression can be passed on by parents to children.
2. Children can be infected by certain occult blessings sought by parents.
3. There is a curse for entering an unholy alliance with another god.

I know theology (or Bible schools or Seminaries) might tell you differently, but the Word of God does talk about generational sins. I know about Theology that dismisses generational sins being passed on but that is just theology and not reality.

There is a belief out there that "It's all done, the day you believe."

Sins are forgiven so you can stand up in the authority of Christ and possess the land, now. You can now deal with the flesh and walk in an attitude of repentance. The Holy Spirit will surface every work of the devil so you can deal with it. Let the Holy Spirit do it, not some man.

There is a two-fold work of Christ, RELEASING US FROM OUR SINS and DEALING WITH THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that HE WAS MANIFESTED TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and in him is no sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR THIS PURPOSE THE SON OF GOD WAS MANIFESTED, THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

Jesus broke the authority, but the enemy still dwells in the land. Maybe this will help you see that the Old Testament coheres perfectly with this and the OT is a beneficial guide to Spiritual Warfare.

As servants of Christ we are to do the work of Christ to deal with the work of the enemy (John 14:12). If we are diligent, almost every new believer would receive ministry and prayer until all the bondages of the past are completely broken. Many young Christians struggle along and eventually fall away because they are never able to become free. We are responsible for these babes. The tragedy is that believers will go for years struggling and defeated because they did not receive the ministry of the Christ when they first came to Him.

I believe the Spirit is waking the Church to this responsibility. We must NOT draw back because of abuses and error, but seek diligently to minister to the new believer until he is completely free.

Deliverance is part of salvation. Jesus said, "He hath sent me...to preach deliverance to the captives..." (Luke 4:18)

Christ came to rescue from the hand of the enemy. He is our DELIVERER.

Deliverance comes from the word, SALVATION. Total concept of being free.

There are 2 extremes in this ministry. It is either shunned or "everything is a demon", which is lack of responsibility.

more later, need to go home.

May the Lord give us all understanding,

A777

Brother Learjet,

Don't worry, we won't be shouted down and I don't think we are being shouted down. The Church has buried their heads. Theology has provided camouflage and cover for the enemy. I have more to say about Satan bruising the innocent and how to be set free. This is the work of the Body of Christ, but she has for the most part dismissed this. In so doing many, many lives are not getting help and people continue to suffer from the "inhabitants" in the land. I am so blessed that your wife was set free by the Lord. That made my day.

The Word absolutely talks about this yet we don't want to acknowledge it. The OT is all about spiritual warfare.

For instance, David Duplessis, says that "after Calvary there is no need for deliverance like Jesus did." And a lot of people listen to him and others that say the same thing. The seminary classroom is so much more different than real life, isn't it? Rather, teal life is so much more different than the classroom. You know what I am saying.

The fact of the matter is, that Jesus (Joshua) did break the authority but the enemy still dwells in the land.

And the enemy does not want the Church to know this kind of information, so please keep in prayer and those of you that don't understand or even agree, be open, be prayerful and please extend some patience with this thread.

Many blessings to you and your family. Your testimony made my day.

A777

I am more than willing to stand completely alone to see the Truth in His WORD - the Only words that matter. That His WORD be exalted above man's non-infallible teachings.

You can lift up demons beyond what is Scripturally provable and in so doing, lower the Price that was paid for our freedom by the very GOD who created us.

Earl, I believe your story and never said anything remotely like that there are no people out there that may need this type of help - but I would want the person who I take my loved one to for help, to have their demonology beliefs to be '100%' Scriptural. That is all that I've been asking for - Because this is the most potentially lethal doctrine spiritually IF a person doesn't have it as a 'Thus Saith The LORD' from His Word alone.

Thank GOD your wife benefited as many do from proper counseling and prayer - but when you've seen Many people thrown into mental institutions or totally give up on Jesus due to FAULTY DEMONOLOGY - than you'd be very careful as well, to be Certain that the people who are teaching or preaching or ministering in this area are 100% Scripturally sound and not blaming demons 'in' Born-Again Christians when it's just their flesh or a lack of understanding of where we all stand safely in Christ and so forth, concerning hindered lives of people who are or want to be Christians.

If one newly saved person reads or listens to faulty teaching on demons and has Any FEAR whatsoever placed in them by anything that Isn't true because it's not found in His Word - That's where our concern should be.

If you ask ANY Pastor to show you where they get their beliefs from, and ask for the New Testament proof - THAT is not a sin!
All the good Pastors and ministries that I have ever heard, will even tell their congregations or listeners - "Don't just take my word for it - be Bereans and go home and scrutinize what I've taught by His Word."

If your wife is now living a joyful, fruitful life in Christ, without fears and fully trusts Jesus for continued freedom, than I rejoice for you both - but as we are speaking about the so-called power of demons and teaching on what demons can and can't do to a true believer - then with the fact that newly saved or struggling Christians are reading these posts - If we do not give them 100% accurate Biblically Pure teaching from His Word Alone about what demons can or can't do to a true Believer, then we've done far more harm than good and may potentially cripple them or worse. That's the bottomline.
Can we back All that is presented in these posts with 'His Word' - which far surpasses Any experience that any of us here have ever had. That's all I've asked. If you all want to call that "shouting down", then that's your own terminology for someone who doesn't want us to going beyond what Is Written nor to feed anything beyond what Is Written to the vulnerable.

No argument from me on that JiG.

Because of unbalanced teaching, the ministry of Isaiah 61:1 and Luke 4:18 has been discredited. Such teaching that places all responsibility on the devil and demons for the problems one has is certainly unbalanced. These people see a demon in everything and look upon man as being the victim. I believe a balanced teaching makes man responsible for what he is. Satan may be involved but ONLY because man gave place to the devil.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for REPENTANCE because repentance indicates responsibility and you cannot blame the devil. However, be sensitive to the person that you are ministering to whether they need repentance or deliverance.

The heart of man must be turned back to God before anyone can receive help. The Christian life is maintained by an attitude of repentance.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for SELF-DISCIPLINE because DELIVERANCE will not give a person DISCIPLINE. Discipline must be learned and it will bring order to one's life. The devil does most of his work through disorder.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for the CRUCIFIXION of the FLESH, because one cannot crucify demons. The flesh is not a demon. One cannot cast out the flesh. Fruits/works of the flesh are not demons. Gal 5:19-21.

The "cords of your sin will bind you". Pro 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for FORGIVENESS AND CONFESSION OF FAULTS. The ground of deliverance must be prepared through forgiveness and confession of faults. You give place to the enemy by harboring bitterness and hatred. So deal with what gives the devil place in your life. Much of our deliverance comes through forgiveness. Bitterness can only be released by forgiveness.

"Neither give place to the devil" Eph 4:27

There are things that give place to the devil. The devil does not respect a Christian that opens the door to him. When you deal with your problem and tear the devil's house down, he will leave.

The strong man must be bound. (Matt 12:29). The devil only respects one more powerful than he (Christ).

The Spirit of God coming into a life will not allow the works of the enemy to remain hidden. As the Spirit reveals his works, the Believer must arise and gird himself with faith and come against his enemy in every area until he is free to be all God wants him to be.

These things take time. In Exodus 23:27-30, the land was not possessed in one day, they took the land little by little.

Exo 23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

Joshua defeated 31 kings in Joshua 12, then divided them amongst the tribes and told them to drive them out. Parallel to Jesus and the Apostles.

Just like the children of Israel, you have just as much as you possess.

Truth is a necessary basis for ministry and you need to show people how the enemy has set up certain strategies in their lives.

To the degree truth has been received, God's Spirit will bring deliverance and to the degree of understanding concerning the enemy and the ground given, can one effectively resist him.

The scriptural ground of receiving deliverance is TRUTH.

You have to receive the truth of Christ's full redemption, receive the truth concerning the works of Satan and receive the truth concerning one's self.

What is ours in doctrine is not ours automatically in experience. The enemy will try to hide himself. Areas can remain untouched until one appropriates by faith Christ's redemption in that area of their life.

The blood covenant breaks the power of Satan and faith must be joined ot the covenant for its benefits to be received.

In conclusion, ACCEPTING ONE'S OWN RESPONSIBILITY IN THE MATTER IS RECEIVING TRUTH. Man is responsible for what he is. You may have been an innocent victim when you were younger, but now that you know Christ, He is showing you the way to freedom. It is your responsiblity to forgive and release those who have hurt you. Deliverance and healing will come as you forgive.

Like I said, it takes time to recover lost ground.

Exo 23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

But "all the promises of God are yea and amen and we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us."

It involves a lot of tears and releasing a lot of hurts and receiving God's love. Wait on the Lord for truth to minister and wait on Him to give you understanding of what gave place to the devil.

When the Lord gives you light, pull down the stronghold and the enemy must flee. Pro 21:22 A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty, and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.

UNLESS THE GROUND IS DEALT WITH THAT GAVE PLACE TO THE ENEMY, no permanent relief can be obtained and like the children of Israel who did not completely drive out their enemies they were continually vexed.

Jdg 10:8 And that year they vexed and oppressed the children of Israel: eighteen years, all the children of Israel that were on the other side Jordan in the land of the Amorites, which is in Gilead.

He is faithful.
Jos 11:6 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Be not afraid because of them: for to morrow about this time will I deliver them up all slain before Israel: thou shalt hough their horses, and burn their chariots with fire.

Jos 11:7 So Joshua came, and all the people of war with him, against them by the waters of Merom suddenly; and they fell upon them.

Jos 11:8 And the LORD delivered them into the hand of Israel, who smote them, and chased them unto great Zidon, and unto Misrephothmaim, and unto the valley of Mizpeh eastward; and they smote them, UNTIL THEY LEFT THEM NONE REMAINING.

Isn't this awesome? It's all BIBLE!!

A777

If anyone recalls, my question concerned #6 of this series titled "Manifestations".

I realize that we have different beliefs represented here as far as Eschatology goes and we know that what we believe is a matter of choice, according to His Word. Whether it be about "manifestations" of demons with Christians or eschatology or Christology - any doctrine.

With some others, I side with Zac and believe that our Resurrection occurs 'at' His Return and suppose we call that Post-Trib.

I have tried to get that same question answered for this many pages and I see that it's more important to some to kill the questioner, than to see how simple a question it was.

As one of our new members said - we're to be dead, so that we don't take offense, and I don't and have nothing invested here that I didn't feel only from my heart to ask.
I have no reason whatsoever to need to post here except for concern for those who are not yet fully grounded in confidence in His Word because they may be newly saved.
Nothing else matters to me except that possibly just one person will not fear when things get horrendously worse in this world than they've ever been in human history.
When the vile spirits held in the pit are loosed and everyone who takes the mark will Be 'demon possessed' and the Whole World - those demon possessed folks - will Hate you, if you're not one of them and will want to and will kill the majority.
When manifestations will be the order of the day and common place - even to the 2nd beast calling down fire from the sky and Sodom looks tame compared to the environment that will be totally surrounding us. When those that you thought were Christians begin to turn on you, besides friends and family. And that's just part of the Revelation and Jesus' other descriptions of the last days.

Pre-Tribbers may scoff at this too - but I have no plans to post to this thread any further - because I feel freed from the burden of trying to ask a simple question so that no child of GOD 'fears' that their children will be possessed while their sleeping or anything remotely out-of-control can happen to a sanctified family or single - and that demons cannot be "IN" a truly Born-Again Christian - According to The WORD of GOD!

If GOD permits a Christian to be terrorized by demons - then He's trying to scare the heck out of them so that they'll begin to get The WORD of GOD straight in their understanding ... both the written Word and The WORD of GOD who was GOD in the flesh.

If one chooses to believe that Born-Again Christians can have demons 'in' them - then they have our prayers - especially for the days ahead that I've nut-shelled above.

My heart-felt prayers from a tearful heart of empathy only.
I pray that all of you here will be Victorious Overcomers, until we leave this body of flesh and see each other With Him.
That no weapon formed against you shall prosper.
That you'll come to know by Divine Revelation, that if you draw nigh to HIM, that He will draw nigh unto you and that you'll take a note book of your own and begin to hand write every Scripture verse that proclaims the available victory in Christ to every truly Born-Again regenerated Christian - that He paid an extremely great price to purchase for us.
That He'd open the eyes of your understanding, that merely debating, just for the sake of debating, is never profitable within His Body - but building up the Body in His Love is the only profitable and selfless service within a fellowship. To test everything by His Word first, most especially 'experiences', because the majority out there are basing their lives upon them.
That we'll learn to die to self and that He will open eyes to the days that we're living in and what the days to come hold in store for this world we're living in, as He promised to do in His Word - John 16:13 - in Jesus' Name, Who is The Word of GOD - Amen, and Amen.
In His Perfect Love that casts out all fear to you all.

I am quite a bit behind. Have not heard #6, yet.

A777

There are hundreds of denominations today, all thinking they stand on the Word of God.

If you don't "see it" in the Word of God, how can you acknowledge and stand on it?

Just a thought.

A777

We are not to give the devil credit that He can just do what he wants with the Christian because God does protect us. If the devil has any access to anyone it is because he is still unregenerate or he has backslid or he is walking in disobedience to God.

I don't know where any of this has been communicated.

The devil cannot JUST do what he wants to a Christian.

But he will not respect a Christian who opens a door to him, will he?

Oh, I guess you said that. The "backslid" or "walking in disobedience".

Thank you,
A777

rbanks, thanks for sharing your heart on this matter. To you, White_Stone, Ibowmyknees and JiG I say, I sat under this doctrine for twenty years in good New Testament church settings, AFTER I'd received the Holy Spirit, and God did change me, mainly through worship, which Satan and his emissaries hate. But I cannot testify that all the influences of my past ceased to affect me when I received the Holy Spirit. Believe me, I watched and listened in wonder to testimonies from those whose did, and envied them. New birth did not separate me from the spiritual afterbirth as quickly as it would be more convenient to declare.

I refer you all to the lists of sins in Paul's epistles, which rename and re-establish the prohibitions of the Old Covenant and Old Testament, and, to his opening remarks to the saints in each case, which give NO INDICATION that he was not writing to blood-bought Christians.

If, as you all suggest, the Holy Spirit protects a person from demonic interference, why was he bothered?

I'm quoting from Learjet's post on P10,

Frankly, I was VERY skeptical about it, probably MORE THAN YOU but I can't deny the fruit of Jesus working in her life, in fact these are the things that I prayed for for years. You want to judge doctrine, where the Lord is more concerned about fruit. Guess what I learned? That Jesus is not limited to my understanding of the Word (thank you Lord because we would all be doomed). You have theories based on your understanding, I have experience backed up by a personal testimony.

It says in the book of Psalms "TRUST IN THE LORD with all of your heart, AND LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING" -Proverbs 3:5

Paul says "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." -Ephesians 6:12

These have already had a beating from the enemies of their souls. It would be courteous, if not Christ-like, to hear them out, and give glory to God for all His wondrous works in their lives, and even... even... reconsider your theology in line with how God actually deals with human hearts - because not only is HE alive today, but His word - even the Old Testament - is alive today - and whom He has called into pastoral ministry He also gives insight and wisdom by His Spirit, to apply HIS words of truth to the task of leading captives to perfect liberty.

AtG, either you aren't reading my posts or something is clouding you to what they say.

When I meet someone in the flesh - I cannot help if the LORD opens my eyes to the unseen of what is going on inside their lives. It's nothing that I've asked for nor wanted. When we empty ourselves of self and deny ourselves - coming to the true meaning of Jesus' words with complete clarity, than we fully understand what He meant by "without ME, you can do Nothing."

Your post about Paul's writing in a post above is quite nebulous.

The reason I strongly suggest this book is because few want to reckon with the fact that their experiences or thought life or behavior has anything to do with 'themselves' - ie. their own flesh and desires for whatever is self oriented.

The reason some avoid Nee's books is because in them, they see as clear as a bell that they need to "Die to self" and they just plum don't want to. It's as Easy as that.

I would highly recommend this book, just for one -
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/5f00.0634/5f00.0634.c.htm

No weapon formed against us shall prosper - but He needs our co-operation when it comes from our 'flesh' as Satan's sin and many spiritualist's power are birthed through Pride.

I truly hope you'll be willing to look into these things - of the other side of mankind's problems.

**UPDATED**

This definitely needs to be said again, especially if we are truly concerned with new "babes".

From AtG -

"These have already had a beating from the enemies of their souls. It would be courteous, if not Christ-like, to hear them out, and give glory to God for all His wondrous works in their lives, and even... even... reconsider your theology in line with how God actually deals with human hearts - because not only is HE alive today, but His word - even the Old Testament - is alive today - and whom He has called into pastoral ministry He also gives insight and wisdom by His Spirit, to apply HIS words of truth to the task of leading captives to perfect liberty."

I find it interesting that (really I don't) people don't see all the parallels in the OT of the workings of Satan in and with God's people.

All these Kings in the OT had powers and principalities behind them. These nations that came against Israel (God's people) had demonic forces behind them.

When I read the OT today, and I see these "Kings" and "Nations", I automatically think of the powers of darkness.

These spirits don't die. Where do you think they are today? They are still trying to destroy the "LAND". Yep, that is YOU. And they keep trying to invade your LAND, through the works of the flesh (sin and rebellion), same as in the OT. Nothing has changed.

There are so many that have tried to accomplish their own deliverance through self-control programs for rehabilitation or religious exercises, all to no avail.

Many have made vow after vow to do better and then broken each one, because no matter how HARD they TRY, they just can't make themselves free.

They have watched every effort to deliver themselves, seemingly strengthen the wickedness working in them, while their taskmasters (lusts of the flesh) rage out of control.

Could Israel expect God's protection if they rebelled and sinned? What happened? Enemies would invade the land, right?

Can we expect God's protection if we rebel and sin? No. Enemies will invade the land and try to set up strongholds in our lives. First, it will just be works of the flesh, but if we don't repent, "friends" may stop by and visit you and take up residence. The works of the flesh are the sin nature of Satan and the powers of darkness travel over this road, just like with Israel in the OT. They sinned and rebelled and guess who is showing up at their front door? Kings and Nations come by and try to FORCE there way in. But Isreal, by their sinning and rebellion, actually invited them in. This is what God is trying to show us.

They try to tempt you and "draw you away".

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Even when Israel had the Ark of the Covenant, (The presence of God in their midst - Holy Spirit), they were invaded and defeated because of their sin and rebellion.

Where was the protection of God?

Conclusion: We absolutely cannot expect God to wink and protect us if we rebel and sin and as has been said before, Satan does not respect a Christian (even though they have the presence of God - Holy Spirit), dwelling in their land.

Why is this so difficult?

Why are we ignoring these parallels?

Because of theology.

A777

We all agreed that we were happy for Brother Earl's wife - yet that's been twisted that we didn't, already on this page.

Brother 777 - How far and where do we draw the line between O.T. and what Christ has accomplished as The Lamb of GOD - the King Victorious - breaking even the power of sin and death and the power of the enemy.

There is NO comparison between the life of the OT peoples and the lives of the totally regenerated.... as we look at the "best" of the OT followers - Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Can we see what the difference is between the O.T. and the New by seeing a "Saul of Tarsus" becoming Paul the Apostle?

Jer 34:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, IN PROCLAIMING LIBERTY, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

Jer 34:18 And I will give THE MEN THAT HAVE TRANSGRESSED MY COVENANT, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof,

Jer 34:19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;

Jer 34:20 I will even give them into the hand of their ENEMIES, and into the hand of them that SEEK THEIR LIFE: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the FOWLS of the heaven, and to the BEASTS of the earth.

A question for you:

WHAT or WHO are the FOWLS of heaven and BEASTS of the earth, today? Here is a clue, just like in Jer 34:20, they seek your life and they are your enemies.

And why did this happen? Because of sin, transgression. Personal responsibility.

We keep giving plenty of scriptures but you either ignore or dismiss them.

A777

Bro 777 - What I do see from our OT, that I posted the other day is the fact that GOD had the book of Job to be the first book chronologically so that we would see that Satan has no power against His Saints, lest it be permitted by GOD Himself.

Satan was permitted to "touch Job's flesh" - but no where do we see that a "demon was IN or Entered Job's flesh".

We only have problems with all of this if we go "beyond What Is Written." and allow a belief that gives Satan more power than he actually has in a "believers" life.

FEAR is an open door to deceptions of this nature. And The LORD said, in the last days - "men's hearts will be failing them for fear" ----- THAT should Not be any of 'us'.

Blessings.

Brother 777 - How far and where do we draw the line between O.T. and what Christ has accomplished as The Lamb of GOD - the King Victorious - breaking even the power of sin and death and the power of the enemy.

We don't draw the line. We let the Holy Spirit give us understanding.

I said before, Jesus broke the power of sin and death. No argument there.

But he was also "manifested to destroy the works of the devil" and this is the process of sanctification which sometimes includes deliverance because there are enemies in the land.

I'm sorry if you don't see the simple illustrations and parallels between the OT and NT regarding Spiritual Warfare and the workings of the enemy.

My experience backs up everything I have written about. I have seen many get set free.

I have not gone beyond what is written, I have only gone beyond what YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED.

respectfully,
A777

JiG,

There is nothing to be afraid of except staying in bondage.

The enemy only has as much access in a Believer's life as the Believer gives him. As I said, the enemy did not respect Israel when they sinned and he will not respect the Believer. Sinning means giving place to the enemy.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Invading your land, is usually extreme cases, but the Christian should still be warned not to "play with sin". There is no "benign" sin that is safe to play with.

Of course the Children of God were not regenerated in the OT, but how else could the Holy Spirit lay down principles for us, today to explain the workings of the enemy?

Real life backs up these principles, thus backing up the Word. That is why I have no problem understanding and believing Jim Logan.

The enemy works the same today as he did then. He has not changed.

A777

Oh Brother - if you don't see from earlier pages here that I surely Do believe in Spiritual warfare, then I suppose there are many many posts that you haven't had the time to look through on this thread.

But, I also said - that there are two sides to this "spiritual warfare" and that fine-line, if crossed, can cause much more damage than good.

I do see that you believe in Spiritual Warfare (to a point). I am blessed how you love God's Word.

I just think that you are ignoring or explaining away a good part of it.

This should not be personal, we are trying to exchange between one another what we have learned.

Blessings,
A777

I don't believe it has been "personal" from you 777.

We'll share "experiences" if you so choose - but as I posted the other day - we can Never base Doctrine on experiences but Only from His Word.

ttyl

P.S. - please let's not forget the book of Job, mentioned at the bottom of the previous page.

James 5:11

Hi JiG,

I did not forget Job.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? IN ALL THIS DID NOT JOB SIN WITH HIS LIPS. (he did not open any doors to the enemy through sin).

Since, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh, I have always believed that Job did not sin against the Lord.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

The story of Job illustrates quite a bit and one thing is that the Accuser of the brethren needs permission to attack a Saint who has not "given place to the devil" as Eph 4:27 talks about. If you give place to the Devil, YOU have given him permission (actually an invitation).

The Lord uses Satan to test us with trials. We do see later that the Lord used this trial to bring some things out of Job's heart that he did not know were there. Some wrong thinking about God, too.

But, I don't see Job opening up any doors to the enemy. It is not God's will for us to sin and rebel and invite Satan and his cronies into our lives. However, it is God's will that our faith and love for Him be tested and that is another discussion.

Regards,
A777

We'll share "experiences" if you so choose - but as I posted the other day - we can Never base Doctrine on experiences but Only from His Word.

I don't normally share experiences because they are very private and sensitive and could cause fallible Christians who have no understanding or empathy to look upon their fellow brothers and sisters with shame. I suspect that is why the Holy Spirit does not share experiences in the NT. Principles are shared, but not experiences. The Lord is not a talebearer or a gossiper. Paul would not have any reason to uncover individuals and tell their whole sordid story in a letter to other churches, would he?

Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

Pro 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

How would anyone be able to trust Paul with their very most secret and sensitive struggles if he was going to blab them to all the churches? I suspect the same thing for the other Apostles.

A777

777 wrote: My experience backs up everything I have written about. I have seen many get set free.

I have not gone beyond what is written, I have only gone beyond what YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED.

You've brought up your "experiences" more than once. My reply to that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Sin of talebearing. I do believe you know that already.

If you put into captitals, what I "have experienced" - yet you have no idea whatsoever what I have "experienced" - that also is an unfair point of debate - just as subtle accusations of any desires to "talebear".

You just haven't been reading all of the posts on this thread and that has been the only problem with communication.

Another's posts have 'possibly' read my posts, but then put their own 'spin' on what I wrote and totally re-posted what was not in my post. :)

This has been a very instructive thread for me personally.

I'm enjoying reading Nee again - just quotes from him - and I still recommend that book that's linked on the previous page. Flesh/Self is a very tricky feller and can almost appear to be demonic in it's wisdom and abilities but most people haven't had opportunity to read much about this aspect of human-nature. Rather than blame "self" - it is much easier to blame devils.
We need very much so to be taught about our self-lives and the motives and intents of our hearts and I believe Nee, Sparks, Simpson, and a few others have grasped this donkey by the tail and have been able to put words to it and expose it, more than most have been able or willing to.

We need to understand "self" even before we can understand spiritual warfare - if we're truly regenerated. That surely would put an end of the excesses found within some circles that address demonology.
In the Regenerated - the "self" is the only thing that opens doors to demonic influences - so shouldn't we deal with "self" first before we venture too far into blaming devils?

and add to this - Walking in the Spirit - with the gifts, such as "discerning of spirits" as well, once the 'self' is truly broken and brought under complete dependency On The HOLY Spirit of Truth?

Btw - thinking on your challenging my experiences and then your coming back with the accusation of sharing your experiences and your challenge of mine as being tale bearing, after the challenge - would you consider Logan's #6 of this series to be his "tale bearing"?

Hi JiG,

I am not calling you a talebearer, I just don't want to be one. Yes, I should clarify, the only experiences I know that you have had are the ones that you have posted about and it seems that you have encountered the extremes. I wrote about two extremes that people tend to fall into.

I have read Watchman Nee's Spiritual Man and yes, he teaches quite a bit about the "self" life. I probably have all 55 of the his books that Stephen Kaung translated. I like a lot of them.

It's too bad, that you are stuck on "blaming devils", because no one is blaming devils for their personal choice to sin and rebel. I and others have made that crystal clear. I had a post in this thread about "No Substitute for Personal Responsibility, Repentance, Self-Discipline, Crucifying the Flesh and Forgiveness and Confession of Faults". The truths in that post did not seem to be acknowledged.

That's ok.

A777

What Jim Logan or you share is your business between you and God. I suppose you could share experiences in a general way and that is what Jim does. Correct me if I am wrong, because I have not listened to all the audios like you have, but does he name names? That's ok, if he has been given permission from the person that he is talking about.

Personally, I could share experiences, but would never name names, and what anyone else does is between them and God.

James Robison told Milt Green that he could talk about what happened in his life, so that is why Milt talks about Jim on one of his audios and videos. In addition, James Robison, gave an interview to Christianity Today and he was filmed at a big Southern Baptist Convention gving his testimony of deliverance. I have a copy of that video. So, it is pretty general knowledge and thus safe to talk about. I think that was the beginning of the end for James with the Southern Baptist Convention.

It all depends on the person who has received the ministry if they give you permission to make it public (using their names). I don't see anything wrong with talking about experiences while concealing private information.

Of course, you want to be careful that you don't "cast your pearls before swine", either. Meaning people don't understand and will just ridicule and mock.

Blessings,
A777

quote 777: "Of course, you want to be careful that you don't "cast your pearls before swine", either. Meaning people don't understand and will just ridicule and mock."

Not too concerned about any swine here but the ridicule and mocking that you mention - well - we're dead to that but it's been very lively here with misquoting other's posts and all.

I don't feel any guile coming out of your posts, just what I've mentioned before - that you probably haven't had the time to read all of the posts - yet are replying to - I'm not quite sure what of those posts sometimes.

But moving away from the personal - Forums can be tricky or should I say that, long-term users can make them tricky and I say this for the benefit of those who are not long-time users.

Some people will use what they feel or see is the laxness or even laziness of others to assume that they don't go back and read even so much as the previous page before making assumptions on how everyone posting on that thread feels about a topic.
Not only do a number not go back to read the previous page before they jump to their conclusions - but if they won't even go back one page - far be it from them to read an entire thread to get all of the ideas of each person posting and any mis-representations of one who is supposedly replying to another.
This knowledge is sometimes used in a crafty sort of way to gain-say over one that the other may, for some reason, be in a sort of competition with. These can take advantage by knowing 'when' to post, as a page is about to change - so that the posts needed for understanding are already on the previous page and may not be seen. Shmart? No. Not before GOD.
If you've read a lot of Nee on the activities of the self-life or the book The Latent Power of the Soul, then you know how tricky that self can be and The Latent Power of the Soul 'can' indeed open one up to being given "wisdom from below" on how to operate in any crafty manner to promote 'self' and as one has already admitted "to win a certain person over".

I'm glad you have Nee's books. Jesus warned us to be like children and to be as wise as serpents (but not in our own strength or wisdom at all) but be as gentle as doves --- yet illustrated through Paul, that "gentleness" is not always what some people suppose when The HOLY Spirit is grieved.

HIS Blessings back to you 777.

JiG,

Thanks for the grace you are extending.

I have tried to keep up and read much if not all of the posts. What in particular do you think I missed?

A777

I would like to remind readers and posters of something basic which should affect our perspective (if we have forgotten, or, not considered this).

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who MAKETH his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom [prophets] it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. (Note: the angels are watching God rejoice.)

But, fallen angels do not dwell in heaven with God any more. In the garden, God cursed the serpent saying:

Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST SHALT THOU EAT ALL the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;... (the verse goes on).

Here we have a connection between the appetite given by God to the serpent when He cursed him, and, our flesh:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Regarding the sin of not acknowledging God as Creator, and therefore worthy of worship, Paul writes:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead;

so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.'

Paul is talking about people who don't acknowledge the revelation of God in creation, who worship created beings or things, rather than God. 24 Wherefore -

God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

(It should be noted that there are many and lengthier descriptions of sinful behaviour in the Old Testament.)

After describing briefly, how far men and women can fall into sin, listing a group of mindsets and behaviours associated with homo-erotic sins, he rounds on anyone who sins in any way at all with two questions:

Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Note the power differentials spiritually, and what happens when men deny God His place in order to concentrate on feeling fleshly lusts, in Romans 1, stirred up by outside influences, initially. Once people are worshipping objects, they are worshipping devils (1 Cor 10:20).

God MADE angels.

Some angels were thrown out of heaven for following Lucifer after his rebellion.

These angels are no longer party to what is happening in heaven. In fact, they are very limited spiritually speaking.

The problem is, humans are even more limited in power and knowledge.

Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou [art] wiser than Daniel;
there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

So, how does God fix this lack of power for the BELIEVER? He gives us of the Holy Spirit. HIS Spirit. And, He takes charge of what is revealed to the believer both for the believer's salvation, and his ministry. Both are needed.

No believer is ever going to 'see' everything that God sees. Praise Him for that! But God does see everything, and His is intent on bringing the whole man into the good of salvation.

The word 'redeem' means to buy back. Then - He restores my soul (Psa 23).

With regard to the individual Christian life, soul restoration what's being discussed here - the on-going work of delivering from all evil that ever has beset a life, of whatever origin.

In some lives, the glory of God is seen mainly in that work of restoration, rather than in the outworking of a ministry such as preaching or evangelism. But every believer has a legitimate place in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.

In Christ Himself, the Spirit and flesh became perfectly one, free from all corruption.

Since we are starting at the other end of the spectrum encompassed by His being, and since we will never BECOME GOD - in fact He saves us to make us perfectly MAN - obedient and walking in God-ordained relationship with Him - then deliverance (if it is required) and healing (if it is required) is limited to the needs of the individual.

A preacher once said, 'you can skim a cupful off the top of the well of salvation, or you can run your bucket to the bottom of it.' (Psa 116, Isa 12) The well IS deep. (John 4).

Again, let it be said that demons thrive in three realms - sin, self, the flesh.

It is clear from the New Testament that mortification of the flesh is an on-going process - putting off the old man, and putting on the new man.

It is also clear there are many Christians who have never heard or understood Romans 6:6 and don't sit under preaching which suggests they should be striving for victory over the sin in their lives.

For many, it is a very short decade or two between being introduced to certain sins as a child, whether to commit them or be victims of them, and becoming an adult with baggage.

No-one who is posting about deliverance here, is advocating that Christians continue in sin. The axe HAS BEEN laid to the root of THE TREE (of the knowledge of good and evil), yet, the knowledge of good and evil itself must be dealt with appropriately at a spiritual level on the earth - the land of the person's life.

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

we would see that Satan has no power against His Saints, lest it be permitted by GOD Himself.

I agree with you both.

From this knowledge, one of our conclusions must be, that God is not afraid for us... that nothing we go through which He has allowed, has been intended BY HIM to destroy us.

We can also conclude that not only does He know how SIN has been worked against us by OTHERS, but also how THE SIN in ourselves has conspired with these outside agencies to establish our need for His help and salvation, enabling us to recognise our need for the Saviour.

Just for your information, I have read all your posts.

Also, I am familiar with Watchman Nee, having read some of his books in full.

Some previous posters (in old threads) have shared dreadful situations they've experienced as Christians. We are naive if we assume no spiritual powers or wickedness was involved in their making.

Lastly, there are many good reasons for any of us to be circumspect about what we share from our personal histories, nevertheless I can assure you I know about fear. And about prayer for deliverance and healing.

You don't have to like my testimony, but I would like if you accept that it's true.

I think I've shared that I sat under the theology you espouse for twenty years. It didn't protect me as much as learning to pray, understanding the blood of the Lamb, and being healed and delivered over a long season of years.

Luke 17 (of the ten lepers)
13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, AS THEY WENT, they were cleansed.

The problem I've seen in the Church for all these years is the "effortless" theology that's crept in so slowly, it's barely noticed.

Just listening to Art Katz again this afternoon, thanks to HeartSong, brings that stark reality back - that we do the bare minimum to Know GOD and get that True Revelatory experience of Him. I haven't listened to Art in quite some time because I still grieve inside, missing men of his stature in the Church. Cheap tinsel we get anymore makes me sick in heart and spirit - quite literally. More teachers around now than ever before even thinkable - men and women. It's actually a reproach and a stink to the nostrils of GOD Himself. So many desiring to be called teacher or whatever of the other callings they claim and expect us to bow to their words. How? - when they haven't even had a deep personal encounter with The Living GOD?
That's one thing that Art understood, as well as those long departed Saints that suffered to write what they did.

Now, Atg - What "theology do I espouse"?

Before you answer - may I give you a hint. That you have No idea what "Theology" I espouse because you don't Know me.

So, let me know what you believe I espouse. Thanks!

Amen Jim and THEN HE SHOWS THEM HIS GLORY - Alleluia, Amen!

I had a second thought, or question one would say.

Those of us who may have needed 'years' to get on the straight and narrow - or "healed", if you will ....

How long do you think it would have taken if the Apostle Paul was our shepherd, face to face? Oh LORD, I LOVE this question.
It just popped into my head as I went offline just now.
I read all of Paul and he's my absolute hero. He and John and to read the book of Acts and all their epistles - all of everything that Paul had written flashed past my spirit in a matter of seconds and up popped that question from no where. I LOVE it!

So what think ye?

Hard to tell. Would we believe what Paul would have to say to us? Looking back, he is a hero of the faith and we respect him, now. But, if we were back there (in time) with him with our present day prejudices and theology, we may treat him differently.

A777

Now, Atg - What "theology do I espouse"?

Before you answer - may I give you a hint. That you have No idea what "Theology" I espouse because you don't Know me. So, let me know what you believe I espouse. Thanks!

Atg, do you know what you are saying? I truly am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, as it's been your own posts through-out this thread that have your own 'translations' - actually mis-representations of what I've written in my posts. I'm not alone in noticing this as it was brought to my attention more than once as well.
What you've done by posting words like "Jesus-is-GOD believes - or doesn't believe" when my post said nothing of the sort, and that is why I had to ask you - "What theology do I espouse"? You haven't gotten it correct through-out this thread yet, so how could you even address "my theology" at all? How can I reply to posts that mis-represent mine repeatedly. Besides, we're discussing demonology and not just The Doctrine of GOD alone.
I don't have an agenda here and refuse to engage with those who do. Your accusations have gone far enough with this last post, into something beyond a friendly discussion.
The Body of Christ does not work with competitions for "lead ewe" positions. I think it's time for you to grow up into the proper function of all the members of His Body. The members of The True Body of Christ work together as one or at the least, can read what each other writes - Even if they differ with the person and would never mis-represent or twist what's been plainly written by another. You have my prayers for your complete deliverance into freedom of mind - the type that is sanctioned by Christ Himself.

Dear sister,

I can only think that you have misunderstood my addresses to you.

Please show one place (date and time of post) where I have written '"Jesus-is-GOD believes - or doesn't believe"' (Someone may have written that, but I don't believe it was I.)

Now you have explained more clearly the basis of your comments (in a number of posts), implying that I've twisted your words, it seems clear that you think I've been trying to re-state YOUR views.

I have no idea how you've got that impression, because I've not departed from my normal style of posting - where I use the Quote function to take words from a previous post and then state MY response to the comment I've chosen.

I am not aware AT ANY TIME of having tried to re-state your views, nor of attempting to expound your view - since you have REJECTED the basic premise which some of us agreed with Jim Logan on the second and third page of this thread, that the term 'demon-possession' DOES NOT APPLY to Christians.

Your insistence on your expression of what you term biblical doctrine is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't take in the general experience of ministers who choose to define their ministry (in the Holy Spirit) in alternative terms.

If these were men who engage in leading Christians deeper into bondage (2 Timothy 3:6, 13; 2 Peter 2:14) I would be able to agree with your fears; your complaints would be more agreeable; but I have heard some preach sound Bible messages, pray, praise and worship the Lamb of God, and seen them minister effectively. I cannot fault their tenderness towards those who approach them for help, nor their integrity and truthfulness - all considerations which matter tremendously to the person choosing a prayer minister for themselves.

The more you are antagonistic to the prayer ministry described in the sessions under discussion, the more two key messages emerge. You feel entitled to determine that a Christian who needs deliverance must not have been born again already, and, you experience fear at the thought that a Christian might need help from a more mature saint to be released into full freedom in Christ.

Having stated early that only non-Christians need demons 'cast out', you then post as if demons ought to be kept a secret from new Christians, ignoring the reality that the 'babe' may have been demon-possessed before, and need guidance on how to resist receiving back their old inmates. In fact, how would any of us know who had been demon-possessed previously under your thesis, because you insist that they all leave first, so that the Holy Spirit can come in. Most of us would say they will only leave BECAUSE the Holy Ghost has come in.

The other doctrinal issue you have not addressed, is the matter of mortification of the flesh, which Paul states is the believer's responsibility - Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5.

Since we know that no NON-Christian can cast a demon out of themselves, it seems plain that IF a Christian has a demonic stronghold, then with the Holy Spirit's help (Romans 8:13) they might well overcome it - by the mortification of the flesh which Paul advocates (as well as other spiritual exercises such as prayer, Bible reading, singing in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:14 - 17). In the presence of the Lord, demons must bow to Him, as I know you agree. In other words, no-one is suggesting that EVERY Christian who is under demonic INFLUENCE will need specific prayer ministry; only that if one does, this is no SHAME on their part. Indeed, it is the right thing to do - to hunger and thirst for righteousness and to walk in light and truth.

The last thing I would like to mention is that while you claim to have seen enough in the world to make you a relative expert about what people/Christians go through, you indicate no allowances on the Lord's side for how HE might choose to lead a person out of their bondages, after they first respond to His call.

The clearest pictorial example of this in the New Testament is, that when Lazarus had been raised from the dead, AND come out of his tomb, he was STILL in his grave-clothes, and the LORD ordered OTHER PEOPLE to take the bindings off him.

In principle, this is what Jim Logan's series is about.

EDIT: 7th May, 2011

Added because of its agreement with Jim Logan's suggestion to note one's weaknesses, search the Bible for every verse which applies, and study them and pray for oneself.

Extract from 'Harriet Beecher Stowe - How to Live On Christ'

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38911&forum=34&0

(It is believed the words attributed to Harriet Beecher Stowe were included in Hudson Taylor's guidance to his missionaries with the CIM. See thread.)

'A direction of great importance to one who would live this life, is this:—In your sins, troubles, and temptations, make no distinction between great and little things. Remember that nothing that has the slightest bearing on your improvement and spiritual progress is insignificant in the estimation of Christ. Now it is a fact, that Christians are more impeded in their progress by little things, than by great ones;—because, for great things, they seek the strength of Christ, and for little ones, they act in their own. But if the little accidents of every day’s occurrence, the petty annoyances to which every one is subjected, be sufficient to ruffle the temper and excite an unchristian spirit, they are to you matters of very serious moment; and as such, you must regard them—nor can you fully abide in Christ by attaching to such things that just importance, which shall lead you to refer them to Him with the same freedom that you feel in reference to what you commonly call serious affairs. If you are conscious of peculiar and besetting faults, familiarize your mind to those incidents of the life of Jesus, which show a particular bearing on them.

If you are irritable, examine all those incidents which show his untiring patience; if you are proud, those which exhibit his humility; if you are worldly, those that show his spirituality; if you are negligent and careless in duty, those which show his incessant zeal and activity. Study them, understand them, keep them in memory, and pray to him to infuse into you the same spirit. The memory too may well be stored with those sacred songs descriptive of the character of the Saviour, or imploring his divine aid; for their sweet words will sometimes come to you in hours of temptation like gentle messages from your Lord.'