Listening to Paul Washer forbidden by a Church leader.

Recently my sister was forbidden by her mentor to listen to Paul Washer sermons for some reasons that I don't know. I deeply respect and admire the spirituality of that woman of God who's mentoring her. But I can't seem to understand that she'll be also one of the many leaders who are very against Paul Washer. I remember being pressured and rebuked by some faculty staffs of one bible school here in the Philippines, because I posted some things at FB that pertains to modern evangelism specially the 'sinner's prayer'.

I remember three or four years ago when the 'shocking youth message' was widely watched by Filipino Christian forummers in a certain online forum site. Though, I didn't agree with Washer's monergism that sermon started a deep awakening on me as well to many others that I know. Still, I do pray that God will continue to send a continuous true awakening through the ministry of Paul Washer and other revivalist out there, For His glory!

Philippines got many churches but is kinda dead spiritually.
where I lived there was an JiL church that where into pyramid gaming. They said God promised them to become millonaries thats why they are selling their houses to finance this heresy.

I am not familiar with the church in the Philippines but I am familiar with human nature.

People like to listen to a feel good sermon, they hate to be told they are wrong and need repentance. It is all about pride being fueled by the modern gospel of enhancing ones self-esteem.

Washer says it like it is and it is high time preachers in the pulpit do it instead of watering down the gospel. Hey! three is an eternity up ahead and all are going to spend it somewhere. If ones' destination is hell there will be no escape. Obviously, not very many preachers even believe this, anymore.

When I was a young girl back in the 1950s hell fire brimstone sermons were common, today they are rare. When moderns hear them they think the guy is weird. But they can go to a football game and get all riled up because of some weird looking pigskin thrown and kicked around! And this is ok!

Perceptions and priorities - what have they become?

Paul washer's "shocking message" was one of the mighty instruments God used to SHAKE me! along with "The revival Hymn". Even if I do not agree with His 5-points Suprgeonism :-) I praise God for using such a man with such a burden and zeal.

It reminds me of God "pleading" with Isaiah (after seeing The Glory of God and yet keep living) "Who will go for us"??

Blessings

God has used Paul Washer's sermon to wake me up to the widespread deception in America. Not too many people would ever dare to stand up against such a massive enemy the way Paul Washer does. Of course, he's not perfect. But I praise God for raising up people like Paul Washer.

Renoncer

Brother, did Jesus try to control people? Did the Apostles control people?

Who in the New Testament tried to control people? The Pharisees.

I don't care how religious and spiritual these people appear to be to you, God is not into controlling people (demons possess, the Holy Spirit fills), run from it.

I remember being pressured and rebuked by some faculty staffs of one bible school here in the Philippines, because I posted some things at FB that pertains to modern evangelism specially the 'sinner's prayer'.

Brother, if you have problems with the whole sinners prayer concept, welcome to the family. Most of us here don't believe in the concept that 'we accept Jesus', we believe that as we cry out to Him, He is gracious and accepts our prayer and we are born again (He accepts us and we are regenerated), from that minute, it's our good pleasure to live a life that honors Him. He gave everything for us!

Peace to you!

Many in philippines like washer aswell.
My wife is filipina and they love to listen to Paul Washer.

Alive-to-God,

Yeah you got a very good advice-prayer is what I need. I really do have forgotten how I have not prayed a lot for the Body about accepting messenger and God's message on him. Though, I have been really praying that God will change the bad presuppositions on evangelism and regeneration that have been widely upheld by many. I listen much more now to Zac Poonen and other people who are more in to deeper life stuffs, but I still been blessed and challenge by Washer's stand for God's truth to be restored in the body of Christ. I know many that have been fired-up for God and been matured through Washer's sermons, but I do understand now why many people doesn't or let their subordinates to listen to Washer; Is that first of all, that God would change much of what their been holding and practicing for many years, like me and the people I know. But the other reasons were, that washer's style of delivery were very and always confrontational. And others that I met have reasoned that Paul Washer doesn't spoke in tongues or that he is a calvinist and the stuffs that is more of an excuse not a reason about him being a messenger of God regarding the wrongness of the modern Christianity that we know today. I also just think regarding the way he delivers that he's not always like that when he's speaking on other issues that has lesser importance regarding the apostasy of this day. Anyway, hope that God will change hearts regarding this things even not through the ministry of washer or some other western revivalist.

Josef,

Definitely! I praise and thank God for what He has done and been doing in our nation for this last 30 years. But as I look first at myself before and the present spiritual coldness in the body of Christ, I came to a conclusion that we should be serious in seeking for revival of maturity and holiness among us. And I do also believe that this includes tearing down wrong unbiblical practices on evangelism and Church confirmation, that we also have to leave the things that hinders us from really seeking God and giving our best for Him. But I still praise for the Church growth here in our nation and our passion for missions and evangelism. But I believe there's gonna be more from God.

I heard Paul Washer’s infamous (or famous) youth sermon a while ago and felt that he was authentic. In fact, after hearing several of his messages now, I still see him as authentic. His passion arises out of love, not a bitter spirit against sinners. It is unfortunate that Washer’s more “radical” messages get the publicity, while his more gentle sermons don’t. It’s the same with Jonathan Edwards. Everyone remembers his sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and they may equate him with all the hell/fire ranters. But that is a gross misjudgment of his heart, his teaching and his leadership in the great awakening. It is a misjudgment of the circumstances also.

What troubles me, is not so much Washer himself, but that manner in which some have used his messages. They have used technology on his audios to give a more dramatic emotional effect, no doubt aiming to help induce guilt in the sinner. (But it may also solicit cheers from the self-righteous.) Washer if I recall, was not fond of this embellishing. It may not help that some have put sensational titles to his messages. That could make him seem tabloid-ish. While that may be routine in an American-type culture, it can be offensive in other cultures.

I wonder, do Washer’s message (and by implication, Paul himself) inadvertently get caught up in a momentum energized by fleshly power? Then when those messages fall on the ears of outsiders, they comes across as a turn off, a stench. I think this possibility needs to be kept in mind when trying to understand those who disapprove of Washer. These critics likely know little about his life, ministry, spiritual journey, or his suffering. They do not know the bigger picture. That is always a risk with disseminating recorded messages. The listener is left in the dark about who the messenger really is. They can't discern if the messenger indeed has “beautiful feet”. Rom. 10:17 Scripturally, knowing the messenger is a vital criteria in judging one’s authenticity. “By their fruits....”

Diane

Old_Joe

I wouldn't recommend listening to him either. His lordship salvation gospel is an overcorrection to the antinomianism of our age and instead of directing one onto the road it merely puts one into the "other" ditch. I could not recommend listening to him either, not because his message is too strong, but because it is too false

Uh oh.

To me there are a few reasons why some "Christians" today hate Paul Washers preaching. First, he brings to light the biblical doctrine of true and false conversions. Contrary to Scriptural admonitions, many don't want to be challenged as to the validity of their faith. Secondly, he exposes the golden calf of the "sinners prayer". Many "Christian" workers refuse to let it go because it gives them instant results that they can point to and brag about. It allows them to say, "This many got saved at the event, this many accepted Christ into their heart," all the while completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of their "converts" are not genuinely born again. These are the same reasons many today hate Ray Comforts teaching on evangelism.

Even though I do not hold all of his 5 point theology, I whole-heartedly amen most of Washer's preaching and praise God for him. And I do not see that as a main concern for many of his objectors, though it may play a part.

Quote by Alive-to-God: There are plenty of Q&A sessions where these details are revealed, if people want to get to know the messenger better.

You know, a while ago I decided to take an adventure and explore the ministry and person of Paul Washer. I downloaded everything I could get for my mp3 player to hear when I was driving. I watched private dialogues and public addresses. Even at that I would be a fool to say I knew Washer well.

I was indisputably blessed by his testimony. I also learned something about his way of thinking and his particular theological focus.

But surely we can’t expect everyone to take that time, or even have discretionary tools. Here’s where we need graciousness (something I particularity need). It doesn’t seem charitable to judge those who are offended by someone’s message (as they perceive it) and assume that these people are shaking their fist at God.

Perhaps it is more effective to work towards learning others’ perspective and draw them towards gospel realities through charitable engagement than through merely trying to “set them straight” on an issue (or person). That’s beautiful ‘feet’ isn’t it?

Question asked: Where does it say we need to 'know the messenger'?
This is a great question. Considering that the biblical world had no concept of mass media tools as we have, or even mass publishing.
I think the apostle Paul put a lot of emphasis on relationship and used that to defend his authenticity.

I Thess. 2:8 "We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only our gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us."

I see this quality as true for Paul Washer - to the best of his ability as a finite person. We just have to recognize the limitations of our mass media tools.
Diane

Diane

EverestoSama,
If you want a good understanding of the debate between Lordship Salvation and Non-Lordship Salvation, you should read John MacArthur's book entitled "The Gospel According to Jesus" or his new book entitled "Slave".

Briefly, Non-Lordship Salvation means that Jesus can be your Savior without being your Lord. It is a rejection of the doctrine of regeneration. It means that you can be saved and yet never truly transformed by God. According to this understanding, you can be saved and yet live like a devil until you die, but still go to heaven. This is so because salvation doesn't have any effect in delivering the sinner from the power of sin (it only has effect to deliver you from the condemnation of sin). Grace becomes a license to sin if you so desire, since the heart has not truly been changed by the power of God.

On the other hand, Lordship Salvation means that those whom God saves are set free from slavery to sin and become slaves of Christ. Thus, if we belong to Him, He is our Lord. It is aligned with the doctrine of regeneration, which teaches that we are saved by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, who makes us new creatures in Christ Jesus (not just in theory, but also in practice). Thus, salvation means that we are set free from the power and condemnation of sin. It doesn't mean that we don't sin anymore; it means that sin shall no longer have mastery over us. Lordship Salvation is embedded in the fact that a true believer is one who is being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ and disciplined by the Father. If there is no transformation in the person's life, then it shows that the person has not truly been born again, for all those whom God accepts as his children are disciplined by Him.

I hope this clarifies the difference between Lordship Salvation and Non-Lordship Salvation.

Renoncer

Renouncer

I hope this clarifies the difference between Lordship Salvation and Non-Lordship Salvation.

Amen! great explanation.

Jesus Himself time and time again warned us not to be deceived. Someone who is truly saved cannot help but bear good fruit, because He has been born of God! (1John 3:9-10)

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
(Matthew 7:13-23)

"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
(Matthew 12:33-37)

Jesus Himself said that those who do not bear good fruit will be cast into the fire of hell. Of course, because they were never truly regenerated (i.e., born again)! Beware of those who have a form of godliness but deny its power (2Timothy 3:5). Take heed to this warning.

1 Thess 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

Thank you Alive for this verse. It reminds me that conviction and salvation is the work of the Spirit and a broken and contrite servant - a human vessel willing to love. It is the power of God – nor merely “in word” – or even having all the “right” theology. Paul Washer doesn’t claim to be a theologian, and maybe he hasn’t got it all “right” – but he has left me with one thing above all else: a desire to have even a fraction of the capacity to love as he does.

Diane

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”(Luke 6:46-49)

part of Matthew Henry's comments on that passage:
"It is not enough to hear the sayings of Christ, but we must do them; not enough to profess relation to him, as his servants, but we must make conscience of obeying him.
1. It is putting an affront upon him to call him Lord, Lord, as if we were wholly at his command, and had devoted ourselves to his service, if we do not make conscience of conforming to his will and serving the interests of his kingdom. We do but mock Christ, as they that in scorn said, Hail, King of the Jews, if we call him ever so often Lord, Lord, and yet walk in the way of our own hearts and in the sight of our own eyes. Why do we call him Lord, Lord, in prayer (compare Matthew 7:21, 22), if we do not
obey his commands? He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, his prayer shall be an abomination. 2. It is putting a cheat upon ourselves if we think that a bare profession of religion will save us, that hearing the sayings of Christ will bring us to heaven, without doing them. This he illustrates by a similitude (v. 47-49),
which shows, (1.) That those only make sure work for their souls and eternity, and take the course that will stand them in stead in a trying time, who do not only come to Christ as his scholars, and hear his sayings but do them,..."

Paul, During the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) Conference in 1997 between Evangelicals and Catholics, there was a mutual agreement to STOP evangelizing each other. One of the countries that this would have a big effect in would be Catholic populated Phillipines. Just something to think about. I don't know what your minister's reasons are but evangelizing catholics is now frowned upon by the "NEW" Evangelicals and some Christians may be feeling "pressure" to not do this and in most cases may not understand why. If you are not acquainted with ECT, here is a synopsis and the Protestant signers at the bottom.

That's true Brother. But ecumenism hasn't become a major problem now with most evangelicals here, because many had rejected it already. There's a lot more deception now in the so called gosple's among the evangelicals now here. Anyway, last year's controversy in the Body here also involves ecumenism, politics and false prophecies but God has been straightening things up.:)

Now that this topic is still bubbling here, I think I remember Paul Washer referring to a time at least 20 years ago when he was only 23, when the Lord came down mightily where he had been speaking, somewhere in that region. I don't want to say for sure it was the Philipines, but it could have been.

Alive,

O yes someone also told about that. Where God had met Washer wonderfully in a personal way, but I'm not yet sure about that. Also, Before a friend of mine from georgia who is also a Pastor here was working with a Revivalist/worship leader named David (Not sure with his surname but some of his sermons were here on SI) They were thinking of bringing Washer here. I believe that it would be a great idea, because even though Washer is not yet that accepted in the Body here, he's kind a known now and have been impacting some ministries and ministers that I know even they were not calvinist. And maybe a conference of him here might have added to the awakened Ministers here.:)

O thank you so much brother for that information! I think I have been visiting berean beacons site and youtube's channel(not sure if it is the same). And I think they have a good info's out there. You know what, this night here in the Philippines I'll be preaching and evangelizing with some brethren here on a great pilgrim walk of Catholics to worship Mary there out-side metro manila, this walk would attract almost a million catholics who hasn't understand yet the true gospel of Christ.

Hey Old Joe - I like and understand what you are saying - it can be very tricky staying on the road and not going into the ditch on either side. Certainly everything boils down to love - like Oracio quoted "why do you say you love me and do not obey me" is like a husband saying "why do you say you love me and go out sleeping with other guys" Of course, obedience is the fruit and result of salvation not salvation is the fruit and result of obedience.

With that being said I do have a question - how would you answer someone who said to you "What must I do to be saved" or how would instruct or give a call to salvation to someone you were witnessing or preaching to?

God bless,

Patrick

These critics likely know little about his life, ministry, spiritual journey, or his suffering. They do not know the bigger picture. That is always a risk with disseminating recorded messages.

I think you are right on here, there is a brokenness and a deep understanding of the love of God in Paul Washer that few men have. These things become apparent in a broad listening to his recorded sermons, not just the messages with the tabloidish titles.

The deep work of the cross in this man is apparent, it is this work that qualifies him to speak boldly in love.

In Christ,

Ron

To the question, "What must I do to be saved" I would answer as the Bible answers, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved", WITHOUT adding, "and then continually look for evidence and fruit to make sure that you are saved". The former causes one to look to Christ, the latter causes one to look away from Him.

What about, "repent and believe the gospel"? What about all the verses that exhort believers to examine themselves and to be doers of the Word and not just hearers? I'm sorry but the above quote gives an incomplete gospel or message. It is a subtle ommision of repentance and fruit as evidence of saving faith.

I say this somewhat sternly because you seem to have studied this issue out quite a bit and seem to refuse to accept the clear teaching of Scripture regarding this crucial subject.

The following anathemas of Rome have much in common with this thread as many who'd professedly be anti-Romanism yet believe the Jesuit- Roman Catholic View of Free Will

The Roman Catholic Council of Trent, The Sixth Session: Justification says,

Canon IV. If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, no-wise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Canon V. If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

Some may not see the connection here, nor believe this post to be applicable, seeing the direction(Lordship Controversy)the thread has taken. But I tell you, hidden behind all the error is that hideous head free will.

Worship God.

To the question, "What must I do to be saved" I would answer as the Bible answers, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved", WITHOUT adding, "and then continually look for evidence and fruit to make sure that you are saved". The former causes one to look to Christ, the latter causes one to look away from Him.

That brings up a lot of of questions, such as, what is true belief, what is saving faith, what about God's answer to that question through Peter when he said repent and be baptized. Also, what do we do about the fact that we are justified by works and not by faith alone???

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I think I agree more with Oracios answer - why should we not add to it when Jesus added to it many times in His call to salvation and certainly the whole council of God and the rest of the New Testament adds to it?

With that being said I do agree that there is a danger in Lordship salvation being legalistic and preaching that salvation is the fruit of obedience. In actuality the way the whole council of God teaches it this way -

Obedience is the fruit of salvation AND salvation is the fruit of obedience working together at the same time - like two sides of the same coin. They can not be separated - isn't that the way we should teach it????

In my last post I showed who The Roman Catholic Council of Trent(ca. 1545)anathematized.

Now compare what the Council of Orange(529 AD), which preceded Trent by over 1000 years, had to say.

The Council of Orange was an outgrowth of the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius. This controversy had to do with degree to which a human being is responsible for his or her own salvation, and the role of the grace of God in bringing about salvation. The Pelagians held that human beings are born in a state of innocence, i.e., that there is no such thing as a sinful nature or original sin.

As a result of this view, they held that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. The Council of Orange dealt with the Semi-Pelagian doctrine that the human race, though fallen and possessed of a sinful nature, is still "good" enough to able to lay hold of the grace of God through an act of unredeemed human will.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.(The Canons of the Council of Orange - 529 AD)

Just a few question OldJoe,

1. So what about James 2:24?

2. Also, what about Jesus' encounter with the rich young ruler when He told him he had to sell everything he had and give it to the poor to be saved, as well as the other times Jesus gave similar conditions to salvation?

3. Also, what about what God said through Peter "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

4. What in your opinion would be Biblical evidence of salvation and Biblical evidence of someone not being saved?

5. In your opinion is belief an intellectual assent to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and was raised from the dead? If not what in your opinion constitutes belief?

6. My own testimony is the very similar to A777 and I understand what you are saying. Not try to be argumentative just try to put what you are saying in perspective of the whole council of God. Do you think there is a possibility that you are still very close to the ditch on one side of the road and not still yet in the middle?

King Saul had a partial obedience, Ananias and Sapphira had a partial obedience, Judas had a partial obedience, all were lost. And yet unless you believe in sinless perfection, the best any Christian can attain is also a partial obedience, so then what maketh these to differ? Is it the level of obedience? That would be works salvation.

Obedience can be a fruit of salvation, but as both Jonah and Solomon shows, disobedience does not prove there is no salvation.

I do think many who preach what you would refer to as "lordship salvation" do it inadvertently in a legalistic way. Just trying to follow the Biblical road and path to salvation as laid out in the Scriptures it just comes out wrong. Obedience out of love is always a fruit of salvation - does that mean we are ALWAYS perfect and never fail or fall short? Of course not. Living a life style of disobedience and falling short or failing at times are dtwo drastically different things and is clearly where we make the distinction. There is certainly a difference between willful and unwillful sin. And there is a difference between a repentant heart after sin or not, for instance Peter and Judas, who both denied Jesus. A lifestyle of disobedience, willful sin, and/or an unrepentant heart is most certainly evidence of no salvation. And a lifestyle of obedience can be evidence of salvation if it is birthed out of true salvation and a love for God and not as a legalistic motive to work your way to heaven - right?

Christisking

Obedience is the fruit of salvation AND salvation is the fruit of obedience working together at the same time - like two sides of the same coin. They can not be separated - isn't that the way we should teach it????

"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."2Thess.1:7-8

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" Hebrews 5:9

And the one in James which you(Patrick) pointed out is also a vital one. (BTW, great to see you online here brother, been praying for the Skid Row ministry).

Salvation and obedience to Christ clearly go hand in hand.
There are many other Scriptures that others have already pointed out. To deny this and preach something else is to preach a false gospel that tickles ears but has no saving power from God. We're not talking sinless perfection, but a growing in holiness without which no man shall see the Lord(Hebrews 12:14).

a777 I agree with your first post on the whole council of God. We cannot pick and choose which parts of the gospel we like and which ones we don't. That is a recipe for damnable heresies.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" IS repentance! All of us are born unbelieving and to be saved need to change our mind about ourselves, about Christ, and believe on Christ alone for our salvation, THAT is repentance! The turning from sin that follows can happen in lesser or greater measures, but that turning from sin is not repentance, it is part of sanctification that follows repentance, sometimes known as "fruits meet for repentance".

That is where you err gravely sir. true repentance is not just a change of mind about being self-righteous and trying to earn salvation without trusting wholly in Christ, although that is a crucial part of true repentance. It is also a godly sorrow over sin and a turning from it with disgust because of how it offends God. This is crystal clear in numerous Scriptures which I would be glad to point out if requested.

I do agree that belief in Christ is the whole gospel and that repentance is included in genuine faith. However, many unregenerate people have a misunderstanding as to what saving faith is and are oblivious to the fact that it must include true repentance. Many unsaved people see faith in Christ as a mere mental assent to His work on the cross and resurrection, largely due to much watered down preaching. And gain, true repentance is a turning from sin to God, as well as a turning from self-righteousness to belief in Christ alone.

Obedience can be a fruit of salvation, but as both Jonah and Solomon shows, disobedience does not prove there is no salvation.

Obedience will and must be a fruit of salvation, or else your faith is dead. Your theology purposely ommits all the exhortions to walk in the fear of the Lord, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I agree there must be a balance of also having assurance because of the finished work of Christ. But to do away with all the clear admonitions to obey Christ is a serious error and a false message. You will lead unbelievers astray. That kind of message is why we have so many false converts in the churches today.

One more Scripture that comes to mind is Eph.5:6-7 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them."

appolus

I think that we can over complicate things in our drive to explain everything. Paul Washer made such a stir because he stood up and challenged a bunch of kids who had undoubtedly came forward in their young lives and " signed on the dotted line."

He was basically saying that many in the room were not saved at all. It was not because of "propitiation," or any other theological term, oh how men love to use big words. It had nothing to do with his particular theology either. A man or a woman is either saved or is not. You have either met Jesus and been transformed into a new creature or you have not. You either " know Him and are known by Him," or you do not.

Men always want to give the glory to a theology, it is nothing more that sophistry. Genuine salvation is simply that. Most of the people that I know who were genuinly saved and radically transformed as adults, knew absolulty nothing of theolgy prior to being saved. May the Lord save us from Scribes..........brother Frank

Yes. Paul Washer's shocking youth message was basically challenging the hearers to examine their walk with the Lord to see if it was genuine or false, just like many Scriptures do. He was convinced that many there were false converts who were deceived into thinking they can have Christ and sin and the world at the same time. He came and rained on their parade and shook things up for the glory of God. Oh that God would continue to raise up more who would not be afraid to shake things up for His kingdom.

OJ,

Would you please comment upon the following verses as they relate one to another within the scheme of your 'no-lordshipness'.

Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Has He predestinated and called us 'to be conformed to the image of His Son' in our glorification only,that is in our glorified bodies in the glorified state when mortality puts on immortality,or is it to be here and now through His sanctification of us,Him working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure?

Thanks.

Worship God.

Tell me then, do you have enough godly sorrow over sin to ensure you are saved? You obviously haven't turned from all sin, but have you turned from enough sin to know you are saved? What exactly is the level one should look for?

By God's grace I can look back and see the regenerating work He has wrought in me. Ever since I was born again by His Spirit I began to have a new love for Him and a hatred for those things that grieve and offend Him, though I have stumbled into sin and needed to repent. He has given me new desires to obey Him, though I have not been perfect. I can see a continual growth in His grace and knowledge and holiness unto Him.

This goes back to the whole issue of fruit, the fruit of the Spirit(see Galatians 5:22). If one does not see that kind of fruit as a normal part of their life it is reasonable and biblical to question one's faith.

This is not about boasting in one's self efforts or trusting in one's self. It is about praising God for His saving grace which teaches us to deny ungodliness and live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age(Titus 2:12)

The grace and salvation of God through
Christ by His Spirit are transforming. He will give you a new heart that loves righteousness and hates unrighteousness. You will not be the same as before. You will continually grow in holiness though you will stumble and need to repent throughout your walk here on earth. The change will be crystal clear and evident as night and day. If you do not have that change of heart the Bible commands you to repent of your sins and surrender to Christ. If you still have a love for sin as always and live a sinful lifestyle charactarized by the works of the flesh you are a stranger to the new birth and will not see God's kingdom if you die that way(Galatians 5:19-21; 1Cor.6:9-10).

If we follow your teaching we will have to do away with almost the entire book of 1John and many other passages of Scripture. I would exhort you and challenge you to consider seriously and prayerfully the passages shared with you and examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."(1John1:6-7)(NKJV)

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."(1John2:3-6)(NKJV)

"He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes."(1John2:9-10-11)(NKJV)

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."(1John2:15)(NKJV)

"If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."(1John2:29)(NKJV)

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."(1John3:6-9)(NKJV)

That last passage is not referring to sinless perfection, but a life in which we do not "practice" "habitual" "unrepentant" sin.

Well, I'm not going to get into debate here, (but I am on the repent/Lordship side) I just want to say that I really appreciate Paul Washer's preaching. He has been a tremendous blessing to me personally and I love to hear the truth that he presents. He has been a source of conviction, encouragement, and learning since I started listening to him.

I go to a church that would probably not like me listening to someone like him, but he says more in ten minutes than most people do in forty-five minutes, while I don't always agree with him, I know God is with him--that's good enough for me.

a777 this is the sermon that has caused the most stirr from him:

Modern American Christianity(AKA "Shocking Youth Message")
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12827

I did not know if that's the one you listened to so I thought I'd share it in case.

Also listen to the Ten Indictments and the Crushing of Christ. Those really show what he is about. If you look around at some of his videos online you'll see a lot more of him too.

Those are my recommendations in addition to the "Shocking Youth Message".

Thanks for replying to me OJ.

Thanks as well for your patience with me and the others on this forum as you've been bombarded with questions.

Re: "...if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life."

I'd be glad to entreat you, as I attempt to answer your query,although you've not commented upon the two verses quoted in my prior post,but you stated that you intend to do so,and I have no reason to doubt you.

My following confession is an experiential fact. That being, that I DO NOT 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. Neither in word,deed,thought or attitude.

This being so makes me no less loved,redeemed,adopted, or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in Christ, by God the Father's distinguishing predestinating grace.

Eternally loved in Christ before time began.
Redeemed and adopted in time.

Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ,He owns me. He is my LORD. Adopted into His family as a son He disciplines me as it seems best to Him. Being judiciously justified by grace through faith, I am being relationally sanctified by that same grace through that same faith.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your error is in equating that any or all who are His 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him', with Lordship Salvation, as it has been called.

As a result of the view of semi-pelagianism which was/is held by many, many concluded that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. Such is not the case,nor do any I know of who teach what is called 'Lordship Salvation' believe this to be so. But rather believe that Salvation is of the LORD,as well as sanctification and preservation.

Lordship Salvation as it is called, is nothing less than a Biblical conversion of a sinner made a saint. Lordship Salvation as it is called,rejects both semi-pelagianism and sinless perfection.

To further answer your question,I am being conformed to His image by His grace,putting into practice what I believe in my day to day life by His grace,even as the Hebrews passages I quoted above make it abundantly clear.

I've answered to the best of my tainted ability. I hope I've clarified it somewhat for you that you may now be better prepared to give an answer to those verses I mentioned. And now if you would,please include how the Hebrews verses would relate as well.

1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Thanks again.

Worship God.