What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

Re: 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'

OJ,

Would you please comment upon the following verses as they relate one to another within the scheme of your 'no-lordshipness'.

Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Has He predestinated and called us 'to be conformed to the image of His Son' in our glorification only,that is in our glorified bodies in the glorified state when mortality puts on immortality,or is it to be here and now through His sanctification of us,Him working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure?

Thanks.

Worship God.

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To which you replied OJ,

Savannah

Sure I will comment if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life.

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To which I replied,

Re: Loved,Redeemed,Adopted

Thanks for replying to me OJ.

Thanks as well for your patience with me and the others on this forum as you've been bombarded with questions.

Re: "...if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life."

I'd be glad to entreat you, as I attempt to answer your query,although you've not commented upon the two verses quoted in my prior post,but you stated that you intend to do so,and I have no reason to doubt you.

My following confession is an experiential fact. That being, that I DO NOT 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. Neither in word,deed,thought or attitude.

This being so makes me no less loved,redeemed,adopted, or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in Christ, by God the Father's distinguishing predestinating grace.

Eternally loved in Christ before time began.
Redeemed and adopted in time.

Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ,He owns me. He is my LORD. Adopted into His family as a son He disciplines me as it seems best to Him. Being judiciously justified by grace through faith, I am being relationally sanctified by that same grace through that same faith.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your error is in equating that any or all who are His 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him', with Lordship Salvation, as it has been called.

As a result of the view of semi-pelagianism which was/is held by many, many concluded that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. Such is not the case,nor do any I know of who teach what is called 'Lordship Salvation' believe this to be so. But rather believe that Salvation is of the LORD,as well as sanctification and preservation.

Lordship Salvation as it is called, is nothing less than a Biblical conversion of a sinner made a saint. Lordship Salvation as it is called,rejects both semi-pelagianism and sinless perfection.

To further answer your question,I am being conformed to His image by His grace,putting into practice what I believe in my day to day life by His grace,even as the Hebrews passages I quoted above make it abundantly clear.

I've answered to the best of my tainted ability. I hope I've clarified it somewhat for you that you may now be better prepared to give an answer to those verses I mentioned. And now if you would,please include how the Hebrews verses would relate as well.

1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Thanks again.

Worship God.

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May we now continue...

Soli Deo Gloria

OldJoe

LS fails at its denial of the two natures of a regenerate man, and propogates the one nature heresy entirely denying that the old nature of man still exists in the regenerate. If the old nature is missing, whence cometh this war in our souls?

Not so, we do not deny the war between the flesh and the Spirit within us. But we reject the excuse that is made for an unrepentant sinful lifestyle on account of that truth of that war. Many twist the Scriptures with regard to the war in the true believer's life between flesh and Spirit. They say in essence, "Since we have two natures it is possible to completely give in to the sinful nature and still be saved, as long as we are trusting in Christ for salvation." They see bondage to the power of sin as a possible normal part of a Christian's life. Yet that goes completely against the clear teaching of God's Word. Romans 6:1-7 declares, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

Here is an article I came across which I thought explains the war between flesh and Spirit well:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC0QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotquestions.org%2Ftwo-natures.html&ei=ImqyTYWmAoiosAO8-aDnCw&usg=AFQjCNH0xeaEg5afSpZoQjZrsF5Abej1mA&sig2=tXdPLmXQwqSxGFivF0P75g

Solomon was saved from his youth, and yet fell into idolatry of the worst kind towards the end of his life, but this man was chosen to pen several books of the Bible. There is no such thing as loss of salvation, yet the life of Solomon blows up the doctrine of Lordship Salvation.

You are using the example of an Old Testament saint who fell into sin as an excuse for unrepentant, willful sin in the life of a Christian. I don't think that is very wise.

The new nature is imparted, yet the old nature remains. The new nature is owned by Christ, the old nature is all that I can claim that I am, all new is of CHrist. This is why it is important to see that we are ungodly, that is all that we can claim of ourselves. The Christian is counted righteous for Christ's sake, and is counted godly for Christ's sake, but these things belong to Christ and are merely imputed to us by faith.

To a certain degree I would agree with your statements there. In and of ourselves we are all as an unclean thing. with no righteousness of our own. Righteusness is imputed to us by faith for Christ's sake. The problesm with your statement is that you seem to deny the practical righteousness wrought in us by the Holy Spirit. Not only do we have a foreign imputed righteousness from God by faith, but also a practical outworking of righteousness in and through us by the Spirit. That is the process of sanctification.

So I ask, since "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?

Yes, in and of myself I am the chief of sinners. But blessed be God that He chose me before the foundation of the world to be comformed to the image of His Son(Rom.8:29)and to be holy and blameless before Him(Eph.1:4). I cannot deny that He has done a miraculous work in and through my life. All glory goes to Him for that. It is a reality in the life of every true believer in Christ. Though we may stumble daily He continues to discipline us as a loving Father, and shape us and mold us into His image.

Also, in the sight of God I am no longer ungodly, but a saint. You can see this throughout the New Testament. God no longer sees us as guilty sinners but as saints for Christ's sake.

Many make excuses for living habitually after the flesh, to their own destruction.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."(Galatians 6:7-8)

OJ,

You ask, "are you ungodly?"

You ask in the present tense. Therefore I answer no.

I was one of the ungodly for whom Christ died.
But I am now a new creation in Christ.
I am one to whom the epistles are addressed:

Rom. 1:7 ...beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

1 Cor. 1:2,3...to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place--both theirs and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

2 Cor. 1:1,2 ...with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Eph 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Philippians 1:1,2 Paul and Timotheus, servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with overseers and ministrants; Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother,to the saints in Colossae, and to the faithful brethren in Christ: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Jude 1:1,2 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

I am a saint and no longer a sinner.
In Adam I was a sinner and I died as such.
In Christ I am now a saint who has been raised and made alive. A new creation.

The Word of God tells us who we were and who we are.
I am now in the number of the redeemed men.
Not in the number of the ungodly and sinners.

Psalms 1:1-6 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, having been stored up by the same Word, are being kept for fire to a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Jude 1:14,15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No! I am not ungodly nor am I a sinner,any longer.
I am a righteous saint.
My LORD and my Redeemer has told me so and made me so!

Worship God.

One of the problems is that OJ does not understand the difference between known and unknown sin, willful and unwillful sin or deliberate and undeliberate sin. There is also a drastic difference between a lifestyle of sin or a moment of imperfection of the flesh. I can certainly say that I have repented and turned from all deliberate, willful, known sin and have given up a lifestyle of sin. At the same time I can say that I have areas in my life which fall short of the perfection of Christ and would be considered sin. I also most certainly inadvertently sin upon occasion as I am going through the life long process of sanctification being molded into the image of Christ. For example, I may have unknown areas of pride, jealousy or lack of faith in my heart all of which are considered sin, but none of which would be considered willful transgression of the law. I may also inadvertently get angry or say an unkind word to my wife or speak harshly to a co-worker in frustration. All of the above examples would be considered unknown or unwillfull or undeliberate sin When this sin occurs in my life or God reveals areas of imperfections of the flesh I am quick to repent and turn from them out of love for my Lord and Savior. At the very same time I can honestly say I have no willful, unrepentant, deliberate sin in my life and do not live a life style of willful sin - for example - I do not lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get drunk, fornicate, etc and I do not willfully transgress the law. This will help when OJ or others try to point out imperfections and unwillful sin as a argument that one does not have to turn from sin as a requirement of salvation. Also, make sure that the definition of sin OJ is using is "willful transgression of the law" and not the definition of "anything that falls short of the perfection of Christ and glory of God" make sure you hold him to the first definition and his argument and theology will start to crumble and fall apart. The only way his argument can hold up is if he uses the latter definition and tries to blur the clear and biblical differences between willful and un-willful sin.

We also must realize that Jesus many times put requirements on salvation and the requirement was always to lay everything down for him and make Him Lord of our life. The rich young ruler, peal of great price, treasure in the field, pick up you cross, deny self, let the dead bury the dead, hate mother father etc. just to name a few. Just like in the case of the rich young ruler when Jesus told him "one thing you lack" in order to receive salvation. Jesus pointed out what he was putting his trust in and required him to lay it down in order to receive salvation. Jesus does the same thing today - He requires us to lay everything down (out of love, not as a way to work our way to or to earn salvation) as a requirement for salvation, just like He did with the rich young ruler. The thing that OJ's opinions will prevent him from understand is that this is also a sanctification process as well as a initial event. So for instance, when I was saved I absolutely laid everything down out of love for Jesus and made Him Lord of my life, but since then He has revealed and put His finger on numerous other areas and things in my life and heart that I have given up and lay down for Him because I love Him and desire nothing more then to be pleasing to Him - and I can absolutely guarantee that over the rest of my life there will be plenty more things that the Holy Spirit reveals. With that being said, at this time, I have no areas of my life that I currently know of that I have not laid down or are un-surrendered to Christ.

OJ has some WONDERFUL things to say and is REALLY on the right track! I also agree with him that MANY who preach what he would refer to as "lordship" salvation do so in an unbiblical and legalistic way. With that being said there are still somethings that he needs to understand and he cannot reconcile his opinions with the WHOLE council of God.

I really hope this helps the discussion! I have very little time to chime in but this is an extremely important topic and I want to help bring clarity to the discussion. 1. Just make sure that the differences between willful and unwillful and known and unknown sin are always keep clearly defined. 2. Also, make sure that the definition of sin is always kept at "willful transgression of the law" and NOT "anything that fall short of the perfection of Christ and the glory of God". 3. And lastly always clearly define repentance, turning from sin and making Jesus Lord of our life not only as an initial event but a life long process of sanctification. If you can do these three things it will prevent much confusion and help the discussion go much better.

When ever the word "sin" comes up in this thread ask the writer to please define as "known and/or willful sin" or "un-known and/or un-willful sin" also do the same when referring to "laying everything down for Jesus" or "Making Jesus Lord of your life.

Good points from Patrick. I'm reminded of one of Paul Washer's quotes, "If you don't have a new relationship with sin you don't have a new relationship with God."

Regarding the difference between willful and unwillful sin Hebrews 10:26-27 comes to mind, "26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

For me this will probably be my last post on this thread and topic for now, as I feel I've said a lot and shared many Scriptures, much of which OJ seems to be deliberately ignoring and rejecting. But notice I said "probably" okay :)

Blessings,
Oracio

BTW, I know I may have seemed somewhat harsh toward OJ in some of my posts on this thread and topic. I guess I see it as contending for the true Gospel against a false and deceptive one. OJ, I really do hope the best for you spiritually.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

OJ said,

"Until you learn the difference between “being righteous” and “being counted righteous” you simply cannot exist."

OJ also said,

"...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous."

From your testimony one can't but conclude that not only are there none who exist who are 'actually righteous', but that there are none who exist who are 'actually sinners'.

God's testimony above, in Romans 5:19 says otherwise. It says that those who are in Adam are constituted sinners,and those who are in Christ are constituted righteous. We are actually sinners in God's sight in Adam, and we are actually righteous in God's sight in Christ.

You OJ, bring your own testimony by your words "...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous",attempting to make a third category of men,or rather taking away from God's testimony of the redeemed, by undermining and twisting the words of scripture, and attempting to remove the efficacy of the work accomplished by Christ on the cross for His people.

I continue with God's testimony of those actually righteous and those actually sinners.

Matt 25:37,46 Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You; or thirsting, and gave You drink?...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

1 Peter 3:12 FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE UPON THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ARE OPEN TO THEIR SUPPLICATION; BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS SET AGAINST EVIL-DOERS."

Righteous - Strongs #G1342

dikaios
dik'-ah-yos

equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

In these verses it does not state the ones 'being counted righteous', but 'the righteous'. But you again add to the Word of God your own twist.

Are you sinner or saint?
Are you ungodly or righteous?
Are you a goat or a sheep?
Are you in Adam or in Christ?

Are you in darkness or in light?
Are you a wise virgin or a foolish virgin?

Is Jesus your LORD or is satan?
Is God your Father or the devil?

In summary, the no-lordship teachers are guilty as charged, even as we read of those in Luke 19.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said to them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us... For I say to you, That to every one who hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away from him. But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 So He said to them, "A man of noble family travelled to a distant country to obtain the rank of king, and to return. And he called ten of his servants and gave each of them a pound, instructing them to trade with the money during his absence."Now his countrymen hated him, and sent a deputation after him to say, 'We are not willing that he should become our king.'...
'I tell you that to every one who has anything, more shall be given; and from him who has not anything, even what he has shall be taken away. But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"

Thus far you've not addressed any scripture I have posted on this thread. With the exception of Romans 8:29 in part where you merely glossed over the verse and skirted the issue.

I'd also like to comment that not only has OJ answered myself and others here with an arrogant spirit, but he's also misrepresented what I believe both;

Here: "Savannah’s response is in agreement with this[referring to Macarthur's quote denying the two natures in a believer]."

I do believe in the two natures in a believer.

And Here: "For this Romans 7 has to be adjusted to the life of a believer before conversion..."

I believe in Romans 7 Paul speaks on a personal level of the two natures in the believer (i.e. after conversion).

I've made myself clear regarding what I believe.
If I'm unclear anywhere I'd be glad to clarify.

I posted this in the other Lordship thread but noticed the dialogue stopped there and saw this one still going so I am reposting what I said in the other thread in hopes of adding to this discussion in this thread.

I have been really thinking hard on this whole think one post of OJ that I agreed with was the one where he quotes H.A. Ironside. The Gospel, to me, is nothing I have gained nor deserved. There is nothing I can do to acquire Salvation other than Believe, Fear, and tremble at the awesomeness and Holiness of our God. BUT at the same time with my belief comes reaction to that belief, a belief isn't much of a belief if it doesn't cause a response or reaction in your daily life.

Repentance to its Greek word Metanoya literally means a "Change of Mind" When I hear that Christ died for my sins and through His sacrifice and the Work of the Cross I can not only be forgiven but also redeemed my first reaction and change of mind should be away from the thing my Saviour died for. If you truly believe the Gospel you will truly appreciate what Christ has done for you from this everything you do for Christ and In Christ is done "not of my self" but flows out of a heart of gratitude rather than Labor.

All we have to do is believe :) Simple enough right? The real question that we need to ask though is does my Faith do something, ie does it work? If I believe there is a monster under my bed, I mean truly believe! Then I will react, by being scared, by having my wife check under the bed, by using a nightlight, etc. For salvation it is all the same this is the kind of belief Christ speaks of a belief and heart that RESPONSE to the call of Salvation.

When Peter tells the crowds "Repent" he is saying change your mind at about this Good News, its really true! In Jewish tradition and sacrifice the animal sacrifices could only cover up sin BUT Christ did something far greater He took sin upon Himself and removed yours and my sin. That's not just Good News but GREAT News! However for the average Jew this was an abomination to say someone died as a sacrifice for Sin. But the Gospel is just that and through Him we now have access to the Father, not according to how much we have laid down, or how holy we appear but according to the Work of Christ, I stand on Nothing less but Jesus Christ and His Righteousness! :) I really don't know how much I have added or taken away from this thread but I do hope I have added.

This is how I see the Gospel a devoted life is simply the side-effects of Belief, so to speak.

"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jesus is speaking here of complete and deliberate disbelief and then accrediting the Good things of the Holy Spirit, the Power of Healing, to Satan and his demons. In their deliberate disbelief they called what was UNDENIABLY GOD, a work of Satan. This is the Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, to completely and utterly deny the very obvious before you and calling God's undeniable work Satan's work. It stems from willful disbelief and it is willful disbelief that is the slippery slope of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

*Edited for Grammar*

LOL I meant to say slippery slope, I work the graveyard shift at my work and sometimes my brain doesn't type what I want it to thus causing some confusion. My apologies :)

I'm just going to say that old joe's arguments are dispelling a lot of the bondage I was feeling because of certain doctrines.

ISIAIh 41 BRING forth your IDOLS did they PREACH to you see they can’t speak they can’t DO ANYTHING all they do is cause confusion. spalms 115 and spalms 135 thier IDOLS are FALSE cant speak can't hear cant smell and those that make them shall become like them. Jeremiah 10 they nail their IDOL down like a scarecrow it can’t move can'...t speak can’t move must be carried these are nothing but the WORK of CON men.john 10 jesus christ sais his sheep hear his voice and another voice thy will not follow and if another person tries to preach to them they WILL FLEE from him. jeremiah 5 the priests bear rule on their own authority what will you do when your judged my word is not inside them. Now here is the kicker john 5 son of man voice goes back in time mathew 16 jesus christ claims to be the son of man.‎1 cor2 mind of CHRIST preached internally and john 16 sais the spirit of truth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 lying prophets of ISRAEL my word is not inside them saying god sais god sais god sais wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM their WORDS. all of this is EASILY verifiable

Oh friend, the reaction isn't the focus, its a side-effect. When you take a pill to fix a problem with your body many people don't even consider the side-effects unless of course they are worse than the disease. Their focus is fixing the problem which is why they are taking the pill. Holiness and Love are good side-effects and so when recieving them from the Pill of Christ the focus always remains on Christ, not of works but naturally being produces from the Seed of Christ in us.

I don't pull my assurance from my works nor my fruit, I trust in Christ and His righteousness working in me. I have tried the old do it yourself technic it doesn't work and you tend to fail miserably. I can't do it I need Christ and Him alone for restoration.

Biblical Fruit isn't something to be pursued but grows naturally and Fruit can be predictable by what seed it comes from and by what tree it grows, you won't walk up to an apple tree hoping and expecting oranges, and if the apples are sickly then there must be something wrong within the tree itself.

Biblical Fruit is simple enough, Galatians 5:22-23 tells us "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." These are what should naturally overflow from us as the Seed of Christ in us grows and matures. But even this seed can be hindered by our hearts condition and immaturity, 13And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14"The sower sows the word. 15"These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16"In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18"And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20"And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."

Fruit is determined by the Heart Condition of the individual, Good soil though is not determined by us, but by the working of the Holy Spirit, It is HE that works the soil and tills it and helps us remove the weeds that choke out the fruit. Our submission to Him and his work again is a side-effect of belief, from it flows a willingness to do what He asks of us and a willingness to Love Him more and take joy in His working.

I believe Old Joe, that you and I are actually pretty close to believing something very similar if not matching, Christ Jesus does it all we simply believe He is doing what He said He would do in us. But to wrap this long post up Fruit will come as a biproduct of belief in Christ, True belief that is, because even the demons believe and they tremble however they don't have the precious Seed of Christ working in them, but we do, Expect a harvest.

Read Romans 6 and ask yourself this question: Who is my Lord? (i.e., Who is my master?)

1st option) Is sin your master? Then you are dead in sin. You are an unbeliever.
2nd option) Is Christ your Lord? If you died to sin, you are alive in Christ Jesus our Lord, and thus a slave to righteousness. You are a believer.

You have only two options. Either you are a slave to sin, or you have died to sin (and so have been freed from sin). Either you are a slave to sin, or you are a slave to righteousness.

Really, read Romans 6 and ask yourself, "Who is my Lord? Who is my master?"

Beware of those who have a form of godliness, but deny its power (2Timothy 3:5).

Christ is definitely my Lord, I believe, True belief will cause submission to Christ. Right thinking of Christ is vital to the Christian walk. He is Holy, Righteous, and True, I submit to His teachings because I believe He is these things BUT also its not me working to do these things but Christ working in me. I had my turn and failed now its Christ time to rule and reign in my heart because as you are already stating I am now dead and its no longer I who live but Christ now lives in me and IS my life but not because I worked so hard at it but because I believed and trusted in Christ and as a result He held to His Promise to make an abode in me. Now my flesh has no other choice but to die because Christ in me compells this because with and in Christ I am something Completely New under Grace.

Well said Mguldner! Beautiful. May God receive all the glory for the great salvation that He has wrought in us!

Renoncer

Beware of those who have a form of godliness, but deny its power (2Timothy 3:5).

Amen. OJ seems to be deleberately ingnoring and rejecting much Scripture which clearly declares there must be spiritual fruit as evidence of true conversion.

In the original thread that started this topic I posted something which I want to post again here in this thread for those who may not have seen the other thread. Some comments and Scriptures which OJ completely ignored:

"The grace and salvation of God through
Christ by His Spirit are transforming. He will give you a new heart that loves righteousness and hates unrighteousness. You will not be the same as before. You will continually grow in holiness though you will stumble and need to repent throughout your walk here on earth. The change will be crystal clear and evident as night and day. If you do not have that change of heart the Bible commands you to repent of your sins and surrender to Christ. If you still have a love for sin as always and live a sinful lifestyle charactarized by the works of the flesh you are a stranger to the new birth and will not see God's kingdom if you die that way(Galatians 5:19-21; 1Cor.6:9-10).

If we follow your teaching we will have to do away with almost the entire book of 1John and many other passages of Scripture. I would exhort you and challenge you to consider seriously and prayerfully the passages shared with you and examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."(1John1:6-7)(NKJV)

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."(1John2:3-6)(NKJV)

"He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes."(1John2:9-10-11)(NKJV)

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."(1John2:15)(NKJV)

"If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."(1John2:29)(NKJV)

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."(1John3:6-9)(NKJV)

That last passage is not referring to sinless perfection, but a life in which we do not "practice" "habitual" "unrepentant" sin."

The Bible clearly teaches us that if we claim to know God there will/must be certain evidences of that relationship with Him. This is crystal clear in the above Scriptures and in many other passages which have been pointed out to OJ, like our Lord's clear commands to deny one's self and pick up one's cross as a requirement of following Him. Full surrender(genuine repentance)is a demand of the gospel, along with genuine faith in Christ. Two sides of the same coin. OJ focuses on faith without works, a faith that does not work, aka, easy believism, another gospel.

I would agree to a certain extent with some of OJ's comments on faith and looking unto Christ but he is only presenting a half truth, not the full gospel which is powerful and transforming.

Full salvation is by faith alone...

Heb 4:9-11 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

Those who have entered his rest (Full Salvation) have ceased from there WORKS.

Heb 3:16-19 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Whats stops you for entering his rest (Full Salvation)....unbelief....not the lack of works....

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Anyone claiming that Full Salvation is by faith and works is leading people into falsehood...

Alive to God

Why would a preacher need to warn me of the Lordship of Christ as a pre condition of accepting him?

Why would a preacher have to warn me that my relationship to sin would have to change once saved?

He is Saviour ONLY IF He is ALSO LORD

So can a "Carnal Christian" be saved?

I would agree with it, I can't surrender enough to save myself. But I believe surrender will happen as a result of belief, its Christ wooing our hearts in Love rather than us struggling to surrender meaning it will happen naturally. Also I agree there definitely can be too much focus on side-effects, it is something that I struggled with greatly until I saw the Finished Work of Christ. It was a long and hard road of failure and humility but I know now Christ is everything, I am nothing and its only through Him I am saved by grace through Faith.

I will add this link for those not familiar with Harry Ironside, this I would assume is where Old Joe is coming from if you goal is to see and understand what Old Joe is talking about read this short book by Harry Ironside.

http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/ironside/repentye.pdf

I would suggest reading Chapter 5 of Except Ye Repent to get Ironside's point of view on Acts 2.

Think of the mindset of the Jews, they just killed their Messiah Peter preached this with Power and Passion. With the "Prick of the Heart" they realized their mistake and rejection of their Saviour, and so they ask "What should we do?" Peter tells them "Change your minds (repent) toward Christ and accept Him as the Messiah". This ofcourse is a paraphrased version of what Harry Ironside wrote in Chapter 5.

Ironside doesn't differ from Peter simply sees Peter's sermon at a different angle which is very interesting and actually quite biblical.

A serious problem I see with OJs theology is that it does not consider the whole counsel of God. It picks and chooses parts of Scripture that speak only of belief in Christ for salvation. It completely ignores and rejects other clear Scriptures that speak of the Lordship of Christ in the believer's life.

Here in the US there are multitudes who have a certain "belief" in Christ who have not repented of sin or been born again. They hold to this theology of this "belief" only, and they justify their blatant sinful lifestyle, their blatant carnality, whether it is cussing, unforgiveness, smoking marijuana, fornication, etc. They have been told, "all you need to do is believe that Christ died for your sins and that's it, nothing more nothing less. Don't worry about any changes in your lifestyle because all you need is to trust that Christ paid for all your sins. No one can be perfect so don't worry about it."

Brethren, that kind of message is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Word of God warns us of that kind of message throughout Scripture. It is a lie from the devil. The devil wants the masses to think they don't need to repent of sin but only say a prayer and "believe" in Jesus.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Oracio I really do, I think defining Belief and Repentance is really what is needed to fully understand both sides, The scriptures say the Demons believe and tremble. For many the demons have a better understanding and belief in Christ than your average Christian. What ills us is Easy Belief, or a belief that goes no deeper than the sinner's prayer or a consent to doctrine. Belief and Repentance are ONE in the SAME, when you come to true understand and belief in Christ Jesus you will Repent, ie have a change of attitude and mind towards God and Sin. Again I would suggest Harry Ironside's book Except Ye Repent, he goes into great detail on the Topic of Repentance and what it means and what is the cause of such an act ie True Understanding and belief in Christ Jesus.

A777 great scriptural reference for what is trying to be conveyed, though I know the attitude for the many isn't necessarily the one of the Pharisee but in a sense this scripture shows exactly what our attitudes should be toward God. Humility, never looking to exalt himself/herself and never going to put his/her works as a source of their salvation or righteousness. Notice which was Justified in the story.

OldJoe,

As explained earlier, saving faith includes 1) knowledge of the saving truth in Christ 2) belief that it is true 3) trust that it is true in your own case. When you say belief only you are leaving out trust.

OJ, sincerely I ask, could you refresh my memory regarding the above? Could you break down what each of those means? Do you mean 1)knowledge of the truth of salvation through Christ from the POWER/BONDAGE, as well as the condemnation of sin?, 2)belief that it is true that Christ will save you from both the condemnation and bondage of sin?, and 3)trust that this saving power of Christ is true in your case? If so, we may have more in agreement than I thought.

OldJoe,

I know many who neither cuss, smoke, fornicate, who are not saved, conversely, I know of saved people who smoke, and even cuss, and other things, the difference: the former are proud of what they do, the latter are ashamed, but LS discounts that. Likewise, I know of many more who are so proud of their religious change, that they look down on those who still struggle in sin and cause them to fall. These are as dead as the first.

I will agree with you that true believers will sometimes struggle with some of those areas of sin, especially if they are new in the Lord. That said, their attitude toward those struggles makes all the difference in the world. Like you stated, they are ashamed. Their disposition is not totally bent in that direction anymore and when they sin they grieve and truly desire to make amends with the Lord. But there are multitudes who are not really ashamed of their sins and claim to have trusted in Christ for salvation. They do not care about living a holy life before God, and they are duped into thinking it does not matter. They have been encouraged to just "believe" the gospel and have not been exhorted to also repent of their sins like Scripture commands.

a777, I agree we must be careful not to fall in the trap of that pharisee who was proud at heart and looked down at others. The main point I and others have been trying to make is that there will be a change of heart when someone is truly saved. Over and over Scripture exhorts us to examine our own hearts and lives to see whether or not that change has taken place. Our Lord Himself exhorted us to look for fruit in our own lives and the lives of others who claim to know Him.

That publican in Luke 18 was truly humbled before God, truly acknowledging his grave wickedness in the sight of a merciful and holy God, truly repenting with all of his heart, therefore the Lord said he went home justified. The pharisee did not acknowledge his wickedness but instead continued to justify himself before God and others. He was proud in heart and deceived, thinking he had no need of repentance.

There are multitudes who profess to know Christ who have that same attitude as that pharisee regarding their own sin, and this is on many levels of sinfulness or sinful lifestyles. There are many who cuss, fornicate, get high, etc, who are still like the pharisee in that they are proud at heart. They say, "well, at least I'm not as bad as other people who rape, murder and commit other serious crimes." The pharisee did not realize that there were so many other areas in his life in which he highly offended God and multitudes are just like that today.

All of us must truly acknowledge the exceeding sinfulness of our own sin before God and stop justifying ourselves regarding it. Only when we come to the foot of the cross with a broken heart over our sins will God pour out His saving grace on us.

"All of us must truly acknowledge the exceeding sinfulness of our own sin before God and stop justifying ourselves regarding it. Only when we come to the foot of the cross with a broken heart over our sins will God pour out His saving grace on us."

And you come to this place by coming into contact with how Perfect Christ is and then believing He truly is that Perfect, thus true belief occurs when we come into Right thinking of Christ Jesus and His work on the Cross. When we see Christ in His Marvelous light we have no possible foot to stand on for our own righteousness, even if we are close to perfect its still not enough. Its the Kindness of God that brings us to repentance (Change of Mind) towards God and away from Sin. When one sees their wickedness in light of Christ's perfection they are devastated but when they hear of the redemption Christ provides through His finished Work ie the Gospel Gratitude and Submission is the Response are these required? Not necessarily but if you truly have come into contact with Christ then those things should naturally flow out of you. So Belief is the only requirement, but not some light fluffy belief but deep conviction about how awesome Christ is and how wicked we truly are.

I'm not sure about going around and judging other's fruit or even judging our own. How do you guys think the following verses relate to this discussion?

Great question a777. I will have to go back and prayerfully study those verses in context. In the meantime, these verses from the following chapter(1Cor.5) came to mind as well(in chapter 4 Paul says "don't judge" and in the next chapter he says "judge"):

1Cor.5

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

II. That, though they had been much addicted to the worship of Baal, they should now be perfectly weaned from it, should relinquish and abandon all appearances of idolatry and approaches towards it, and cleave to God only, and worship him as he appoints, v. 16, 17. Note, The surest pledge and token of God's favour to any people is his effectual parting between them and their beloved sins. The worship of Baal was the sin that did most easily beset the people of Israel; it was their own iniquity, the sin that had dominion over them; but now that idolatry shall be quite abolished, and there shall not be the least remains of it among them.
1. The idols of Baal shall not be mentioned, not any of the Baals that in the days of Baalim had made so great a noise with, O Baal! hear us; O Baal! hear us. The very names of Baalim shall be taken out of their mouths; they shall be so disused that they shall be quite forgotten, as if their names had never been known in Israel; they shall be so detested that people will not bear to mention them themselves, nor to hear others mention them, so that posterity shall scarcely know that ever there were such things. They shall be so ashamed of their former love to Baal that they shall do all they can to blot out the remembrance of it. They shall tie themselves up to the strictest literal meaning of that law against idolatry (Exod. 23:13), Make no mention of the names of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth, as David, Ps. xvi. 4. Thus the apostle expresses the abhorrence we ought to have of all fleshly lusts: Let them not be once named among you, Eph. v. 3. But how can such a change of the Ethiopian's skin be wrought? It is answered, The power of God can do it, and will. I will take away the names of Baalim; as Zech. 13:2, I will cut off the names of the idols. Note, God's grace in the heart will change the language by making that iniquity to be loathed which was beloved. Zeph. 3:9, I will turn to the people a pure language. One of the rabbin says, This promise relates to the Gentiles, by the gospel of Christ, from the idolatries which they had been wedded to, 1 Thess. 1:9.

2. The very word Baal shall be laid aside, even in its innocent signification. God says, Thou shalt call me Ishi, and call me no more Baali; both signify my husband, and both had been made use of concerning God. Isa. liv. 5, Thy Maker is thy husband, thy Baal (so the word is), thy owner, patron, and protector. It is probable that many good people had, accordingly, made use of the word Baali in worshipping the God of Israel; when their wicked neighbours bowed the knee to Baal they gloried in this, that God was their Baal. "But," says God, "you shall call me so no more, because I will have the very names of Baalim taken away." Note, That which is very innocent in itself should, when it has been abused to idolatry, be abolished, and the very use of it taken away, that nothing may be done to keep idols in remembrance, much less to keep them in reputation. When calling God Ishi will do as well, and signify as much, as Baali, let that word be chosen rather, lest, by calling him Baali, others should be put in mind of their quondam Baals. Some think that there is another reason intimated why God would be called Ishi and not Baali; they both signify my husband, but Ishi is a compellation of love, and sweetness, and familiarity, Baali of reverence and subjection. Ishi is vir meus--my man; Baali is dominus meus--my lord. In gospel-times God has so revealed himself to us as to encourage us to come boldly to the throne of his grace, and to use a holy humble freedom there; we ought to call God our Master, for so he is, but we are more taught to call him our Father. Ishi is a man the Lord (Gen. 4:1), and intimates that in gospel-times the church's husband shall be the man Christ Jesus, made like unto his brethren, and therefore they shall call him Ishi, not Baali.

Amen a777, in chapter 4 he is not referring to judging based on sinful conduct but judging spirituality based on outward circumstances or appearances(like today's WOF does).

On the other hand, in chapter 5 he is exhorting the Corinthians to judge this man's sinful conduct and excomunicate him because of it. He is exhorting them to judge the man's fruit, just like our Lord exhorted. That is the main point some of us have been trying make here. And that is something OJ seems to be against.

And notice in 1Cor.5:11 Paul mentions sins that are not just outwardly blatant like fornication and drunkenness, but also covetousness. Interesting.

OJ said:

All that we can claim to be is with Paul, "sinners of whom I AM (present tense) chief".

Paul does not calim here that he is a PRACTICING (present tense) sinner.

Please read the whole passage.

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul here does not say that he is ( present tense) a persecuter, blasphemer, and injurious. Being the chief of sinners is Paul in his flesh, apart from Christ. That is who he WAS. So, although Paul is speaking in the present tense, yet he is looking back at who he once was.
We can not take that for an example to justify living in sin.

When a murderer who is saved through Christ from a life style of murder looks back at who he was before Christ and seeing himself if Christ had not reached out to him and saved him as a chief of sinners, but only for the mercy of God, that is gratitude. But if he continue to commit murder, yet claim that he trusts in Christ alone for his righteousness, that is license, and blasphemy.

OJ said:

So I ask, since "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?

If you are asking people if they are ungodly in practice after knowing Christ and hoping to get a yes answer. Your are promoying license and sin which is not the spirit of the gospel but the spirit of the false prophets.

murrcolr said:

Heb 3:16-19 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Whats stops you for entering his rest (Full Salvation)....unbelief....not the lack of works..

The author here in the text equates unbelief and sin.
"They rebelled, disobeyed" v.16, and "They did not believe"v.19 can not exist one without the other.

I can show you from the whole Bible that every sin man commits from lying to adultery, to fear, to rebellion is a result of unbelief.
When Abraham lied about his wife, it was because he doubted the promise f God to make him a great nation. He feared( unbelief) to be killed and therefore lied(unbelief), because he thought that God can not preserve his life and fulfill His promise.

Old Joe

Could you define your understanding of sinless perfection?

hi Annony 777,

The following example was given to prove that a person's lifestyle has no bearing on his salvation

"Solomon was saved from his youth, and yet fell into idolatry of the worst kind towards the end of his life, but this man was chosen to pen several books of the Bible. There is no such thing as loss of salvation, yet the life of Solomon blows up the doctrine of Lordship Salvation."

But we don't really know if Solomon was saved or not. He fell in idoletry at the end of his life and as far as we know, he never repented.He did not serve God with a perfect heart as his father David did.

As I read this thread I see inconsistency with what is presesnted by OJ and the gospel message.

a777

What kind of fruit would pass judgment? We know that fornication does not, but where would the line be drawn?

Another good question. I think the answer has to do with the kind of attitude one has regarding any and all sin period. In Matthew 18:15-20 and Galatians 6:1-2 we are given instructions on how to confront someone from our local church who commits a clear sin(not mentioning the degree of gravity). In Matthew 18 we are given steps which allow time for the person being confronted to have an attitude of repentance and make things right. We are instructed to finally excomunicate him if he does not repent after being confronted three times.

So for a practical example, let's say there is someone in our church who claims to be born again but has a very unrestrained foul mouth and constantly speaks obsenities. And let's say that person is confronted a few times and gently exhorted to watch his language, but he takes offense and shows no sign of contrition or shame. After a few confrontations I would assume it would be biblical to regard that person as an unbeliever and have no fellowship with him.

On the other hand if a person is confronted regarding filthy language and they show contrition and a sincere desire to stop using filthy language, I would assume that that person may be a true believer and grace should be extended.

I have no problem believing and professing Jesus as Lord, but how good of a servant does someone who professes the LS doctrine require me to be in order to be saved?
I stand or fall not by what men say but by the power of God. I also recognize that some will say Lord, Lord, but don't know Him. The best servant can only say, after perfect obedience " we are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do", how much more do i say this who so often falls short in obedience and willingness as a servant.

I think a key thing to understand is the the meaning of genuine faith in Christ, and how that faith is actually worked out. Is is key for us to consider how both Romans and James are reconcilable. For if we discount either one we will be seriously unbalanced. In Romans we learn that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone apart from works and there is much encouragement there in that regard. In James we learn that faith without works is dead and there are serious exhortations regarding that. In the epistle 1John we learn about certain evidences that we can examine ourselves and others by.

In Matthew 7 regarding those who say "Lord Lord", the latter part of verse 23 expecially comes to mind, "23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(KJV)(word for iniquity is lawlessness in NKJV) Paul Washer paraphrases it in his shocking youth message, "you who lived your life as though I never gave you a law to obey."

A777,

What I see in the Scriptures is one message from Abel until the last man that will ever live. That message is " Salvation by faith"

My proplem is the false message of " Faith alone".
Saving faith is never alone. If Rahab the Harlot had refused to take the spies in her house or Abraham refused to offer his only son on the alter. Their faith would have been called " Dead faith", or " Faith alone". True faith must have total surrender to prove its legitimacy.
The expression " Faith alone". is no where found in the Scriptures, instead we see the opposite that Abraham ( or anyone for that matter) is not justified by faith alone.

On the other hand, We are not saved by Christ plus anything alse including faith but by Christ alone.That is what the Reformers meant by " Faith alone"
Our faith no matter how legitimate is not what saves us.
If Christ had not died, we would not have been saved no matter how perfectly we obeyed, believed, or striven.

When someone is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit brings the sin, its offense and consequences under the light of the holiness of God. God demands repentance, restitutions made, and submission to the Lordship of Christ. The person under conviction has a choice to make, He whether chooses to accept Christ on His terms which can be very costly, or chooses to refuse to submit to the Lordship of Christ.

This is what happen when the Holy Spirit visit people in Revival. If a church treasurer who has been getting away with crime like stealing money from the box is convicted by the Holy Spirit to confess, return the money stolen. That can be very costly. It will cost him his reputation, maybe jail time, honor with family and friends. There have been people who walked away from the conviction of the Spirit and are lost forever because the cost was too great for them.

The Pharisees at Jesus time were told by Him: "How can you believe when you receive honor one from another and the honor of the one true God you refuse to receive." They could not believe because they understood that believing envolves surrender of their own honor and glory. They wanted to retain their positions of authority and power.

Yet this surrender( repentance, restitution ) is never considered a paymant for salvation because it has only finite value. On the other hand no one is saved but only by that kind of faith that is willing to surrender all to the Lordship of Christ.

Yes, good stuff UntoBabes. Your post will make me reconsider using the words "faith alone". To me that term meant faith in Christ apart from any works of the law as Romans speaks of.

I sleep for 6 hours and come back to this thread to find it explode again! Jeesh :) I have a feeling that we are all basically sayinng the same thing just at a different angle or point of view.

Salvation can't be acquired by surrender, period. If it is then I will be joining you in eternal punishment because we can't possible surrender ENOUGH.

What Old Joe is not saying Christ isn't Lord a few posts back he put Jesus is Jehovah, No what He is stating is our surrender can't be used as a Condition for Salvation. We are under grace period point blank.

We believe in true belief and when this happens ie we come into right thinking of Christ Jesus and His work on the Cross THEN we will willing surrender but this in no way is of ourselves but Christ working in us compelling such a surrender.

Jesus is Lord over not only the Living but also the Dead whether they surrender or not for every knee shall bow and tongue confess Christ is Lord. We aren't saved by our works but by Grace and we enter this Grace through True Belief and Faith. In it all though Christ is and should be our Focus not our works to Justify ourselves before God and Man, but we should cling to nothing less than Jesus Christ and His Righteousness. If heaven is dependant on our righteousness and surrender we are all in really big trouble.

Confused

Unto babes said

On the other hand no one is saved but only by that kind of faith that is willing to surrender all to the Lordship of Christ.

Unto Babes said;

True faith must have total surrender to prove its legitimacy

So what it's to be

That kind of Faith = Faith + willing to surrender

or

True Faith = Faith + total surrender

Also who are we supposed to prove True Faith's legitimacy to?

Edit for spelling

Old Joe very good point with the Patriarchs and Hebrews 11, the Just shall live by Faith.

Old Joe

Many of the things listed there would not fall under morality. IE Abraham’s plan to murder, Rahab’s lie, Moses despising of government, the fearful Barak, the womanizing Samson, etc...Abraham did not ‘repent’ of his plan to murder, Rahab did not ‘repent’ of her lie, Moses, did not ‘repent’ of his despising of government, Barak did not ‘repent’ of being fearful, Samson did not ‘repent’ of his womanizing, yet each of them had a change of heart in regards to what they would do with what God had presented them.

These are ALL commended, and many for the very act that scripture would otherwise condemn when looked upon through an LS lens. So what then were the ‘evidences’ to be looked for that these were all the children of God?

With all due respect folks, there are serious red flags that are raised with the above interpretation of Hebrews 11 and the acts of the OT saints listed there. Just a cursory look will show that those acts were commendable acts of faith in God. Yet OJ is interpreting those acts as if they were sins which God approved or ignored.

OJ calls Abraham's offer of Isaac a "plan to murder"(a sin), Moses' forsaking of Egypt as a "despising of government"(a sin), Rahab's hiding of the Jews as a lie she did not repent of(a sin), etc. If that is not serious twisting of Scripture to justify sin I don't know what is.

Regarding OJ the bottom line seems to me to be that he denies the need for a repentant attitude regarding sin as a necessary evidence and element of salvation. Over and over he ignores and rejects plain verses of the Bible that do not fit his watered down "gospel".

Those of us who oppose his "gospel" here agree with him regarding the need for trusting in the finished work of Christ for salvation and not in our own works of any kind, whether repentance, surrender, forsaking of sin, etc.

At the same time we argue from Scripture that if we truly have trusted Christ as Savior and Lord there will flow fruit that is instant and obvious, a transformed life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The latter is what OJ denies as a necessary truth. He ignores and rejects all the Scriptures that clearly teach the transforming power of the Holy Ghost. It is a perverting and watering down of the true biblical gospel.

I don't believe he is trying to justify sin but making the point that even the Great Hall of Faith had screw ups in it, infact not one of them were 100% surrendered but had areas of failure. They were justified by their Faith

Matt, he clearly calls those acts in Hebrews 11 sins which God was not concerned about. It is a clear and sad twisting of that passage. Don't be fooled by his false gospel which denies the necessity of a holy life brother. Yes, a holy life is a natural by product of true faith, but it is an element and evidence of it also. OJ denies that.

"14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"(Hebrews 12:14)

Aren't we just comparing Lot's to Abraham's here. Both are righteous according to the bible, one followed hard after God in obedience and the other drew nigh unto Sodom, and even entered in to fulfill himself. Again, the word tells us that both were righteous. Now there is no other kind of righteousness among men but the imputed kind, for 'there are none righteous, no, not one.

Lot, the righteous man by imputation, was vexed in his soul yet abode in Sodom and his life was (assumed to be) of little impact, rather the culture impacted him instead. Whereas Abraham lived by His faith and was greatly blessed because of it, seeking to please God, though stumbling along the way.

I don't believe OJ is saying there is no CALL to obey Christ as Lord, but rather, that some here may be stating that, in ADDITION to faith we MUST obey Christ in order to be saved.

I like what old Hopeful had to say about his good works:
"Another thing that hath troubled me ever since my late amendments, is, that if I look narrowly into the best of what I do now, I still see sin, new sin, mixing itself with the best of that I do; so that now I am forced to conclude, that notwithstanding my former fond conceits of myself and duties, I have committed sin enough in one day to send me to hell, though my former life had been faultless".

Also, remember Christian and Hopeful's discourse about Little-Faith.

We are saved by faith, apart from law, from the moment we trust in Jesus Christ until the day we meet Him face to face. HOWEVER MAY WE ALL FOLLOW HARD AFTER GOD "fix(ing) our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God".

deleted post

H.A. Ironside and other no-lordship salvation teachers promote this damnable heresy with such words as these:

"Romans, chapter 12, is written to those who are already saved, and verse 1 says, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Notice that Paul refers to them as "brethren," meaning they were saved. These people to whom Paul is writing are born-again believers but not committed, surrendered believers; and Paul is pleading with them, in view of all God's mercies, to present their bodies as living sacrifices. They are saved but Jesus is not the Lord of their lives.

Some say, "But the Bible says, 'If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me' (Matthew 16:24). The Bible says if you don't love the Lord with all you heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and hate your father and mother and all that, you can't be a disciple. The Bible says if you don't forsake all you have, you can't be a disciple (Luke 14:33)."

That is all true, but remember He is saying, "You cannot be my disciple." He didn't say, "You can't go to Heaven." We must not confuse the requirements for discipleship with the requirement for salvation. Every disciple is a believer, but every believer is not a disciple. A disciple is a learner, a student.

God never says to the unsaved man, "Come after Me for salvation." He says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." But after one accepts Christ as Saviour, then He says in Matthew 4:19, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." We come to Him for salvation and come after Him for service.

It is one thing to trust Jesus Christ as Saviour and quite another to surrender one's life to the Lord. There is such a thing as the dedicated Christian life. And there are carnal Christians, according to 1st Corinthians 3, who have never yielded their lives to Christ. The yielding of one's life or making Jesus Lord of one's life is not a requirement for salvation. That is Lordship salvation and a perversion of the Gospel." - Curtis Hutson

"The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and he let Jesus Christ die for that elect group. And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.

If Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in his mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly co-operate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.

There is absolutely no such thing as a "can't-help-it-religion." God doesn't just force men to be saved with His so-called irresistible grace. If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."?

The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent. And God never burglarises the human will." - Curtis Hutson

This no-lordship salvation is the sickening lukewarm food which causes the LORD Jesus to throw up. If this is what you're serving be prepared for the worst. It's an ugly odor you don't want on you.

This stuff OJ has swallowed is why he comes up with some of what he does. It's been twice digested and then served. Now that can be awfully foul.

I repeat from my other post that OJ has ignored or just outright refused to address any scripture I presented to him. The following alone puts the death blow to the damnable heresy of no-lordship salvation:

Luke 19:12-14 A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said to them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Luke 19:16-27 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said to him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up what thou layedst not down, and reapest what thou didst not sow. And he saith to him, Out of thy own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest me to be an austere man, taking up what I laid not down, and reaping what I did not sow: Why then gavest thou not my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required my own with interest? And he said to them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said to him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say to you, That to every one who hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away from him. But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

LORDship or no-Lordship?
Friend or enemy?

Luke 6:46-49 "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like.

He is like a man who built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that, without a foundation, built a house on the earth, against which the stream beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great."

No-lordship heretics would twist Jesus' words here in Luke 6:46 by saying, "You need not do what I say, because you need not that I be your Lord, only your Saviour."

But verse 49 is clear to the hearing ear, "But he that heareth, and doeth not...", that Jesus[God]is not to be mocked!

All that being said, I will say that my confident assurance of my salvation is not in some sort of sinless obedience on my part,but my confident assurance is in His Grace[Jesus]and His Power.

Luk 22:31,32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Lordship salvation is a backdoor legalism not unlike a trojan horse to impose systems of control on the congregation.

Ultimately we need to re-frame a lot of the concepts brought up here. Not least of which is desire. Whether one desires and worship God's morality (one can say God's morality reflects his attributes, I say amen) more than God. To be honest, anybody can pretend to bear fruit. We see more CHURCH-ianity than CHRIST-ianity.

Correct YHlives, and we have true Christianity with true Belief, this is the condition of salvation, belief, then Christ takes his abode in us causing the Christ in our Christianity to take true shape and form. But its all Him, as I am sure you would agree with.

Can I make a suggestion for those fervently posting on this thread? Please take a breather for a bit and really try and see what both sides are saying, before you post look at your words you typed and ask "Does this encourage those who will read it?" and Will I enjoy standing before God on judgment when He pulls these words up again on that day?

Oracio quote:
"He rejects and denies the fact that the true believer will have a practical holiness worked out in his life through sanctification by the Spirit."

Old Joe has done no such thing, in fact he states basically the same thing but points to the fact that this holiness, is number Not our own holiness but wrought in us by Christ in us and number 2 Its a work of the Spirit not a work of our human flesh. Does your own holiness save you? Did Christ die in vain because you have your own holiness for yourself?

You are only Holy because you are in Christ, period. The word Saints does mean Holy Ones but the word Holy also means Seperate or Different, God is forming a perculiar people for Himself, the Saints. Are you a Saint apart from Christ Jesus and Faith in Him? This I believe is the point Old Joe is trying to make, We have zero Righteousness apart from Christ, Zero surrender apart from Christ, and Zero Holiness apart from Christ. Its not about us becoming Holy but we are made Holy and Righteous THROUGH Christ as He is working in us daily.

Old Joe to my knowledge hasn't denied that Christ is Lord but is saying that true Belief in who He is will make Him Lord, rather adding his Lordship, ie adding our surrender to Salvation. With that Logic the More Surrendered you are the More Saved you are, and last I checked Salvation is an all or nothing deal you either are or you aren't.

Everything in Christianity is based on Christ and His Holiness and his Redemptive work on the Cross, not on us working for salvation, we didn't even deserve in the first place. We stand on nothing less that Jesus Christ and His Righteousness for our Salvation. Practical Holiness and Living will naturally flow out of a believer as Christ works in them but it in no way is their Salvation. If a man comes to Christ on His death bed, coming to true belief in Christ and doesn't have time for your practical Holiness is he still saved? Just some thoughts on this matter, I would hardly call Old Joe's theology herecies and definitely wouldn't consider Old Joe a heretic perhaps you are misunderstanding him or don't see eye to eye on the same exact topic. That's okay, it happens we are all growing and developing at different rates and speeds, That's why there is grace because we certainly need it.

I think another key thing pertinent here is the meaning of biblical repentance. I am seriously considering writing an article on just that topic because I see many misunderstandings. Some say it is a change of mind about God and self, others say it is a change of mind regarding sin, others say it is a turning from sin to God.

The whole council of God teaches all the above regarding true repentance. But some, like non-Lordship advocates, reject the element of turning from sin as an element of repentance. They water it down. Yet Scripture is filled with the requirement of turning from one's sin to God as a descriptrion and element of true repentance. And Scripture is clear that both repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are requirements/conditions for salvation(Acts 20:21)

Genuinely turning from one's sin to God(true repentance) is not a work that we do in our own strength. It is a gift of God(Acts 11:18;2Tim.2:25) while at the same time a command. The same goes for genuine faith. They are both requirements/commanded for salvation, and they are both interwoven with one another. They must go together yet there is a certain distinction between the two.

In true repentance one goes from being an enemy and rebel against God to waving the white flag of surrender and saying, "here I am Lord, please forgive my sin and use me for your will from now on. I am tired of running from You and doing my own thing. Please forgive my wickedness and help me to follow and obey you from here on out. Please be merciful to me, a sinner."

God will not accept us as long as we remain His enemies in our mind through wicked works(Col.1:21), as long as we stubbornly hold on to our rebellious sinful lifestyle and refuse to let it go. He will not accept us and leave us as rebels against Him with unrepentant attitudes. We must not only confess but also forsake our sin. Proverbs 28:13 declares, "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

In genuine faith we realize that nothing that we do can earn us a place in God's kingdom. We come to see that the only thing that can wash our sins away is nothing but the blood of Jesus. We look to Christ alone as our only plea for justification before a holy God and His holy Law.

So the two(repentance and faith) must go together to be the real thing, the real channel of salvation. You cannot have one without the other. This is clear throughout the Bible. OJ and those who teach like him deny the need for genuine repentance and focus only on faith without repentance. It is an incomplete and false "gospel" message which is responsible for the damning of many souls.

Good explanation Old Joe, I would add True Belief is the Root of True Repentance. When I come to Truly Realize and Believe who Christ is and I am without Him, I will have sorrow for my sins (which without Christ seperates me from the Glorious Christ) and will seek forgiveness, from this belief and desire to be forgiven will come True Repentance. Repentance isn't even the First step in Salvation but Belief is, then comes Godly Sorrow, and then finally repentance. These all flow from True Belief in Christ Jesus.

I will also add a bit of my testimony in the mix of all of this, it was much harder for me to give up my self righteousness than it was for me to give up swearing and immorality however I could never fully trust Christ with my salvation until I gave it up. I am now at peace with God and Christ because its no longer about my righteousness but about Christ Grace and His Righteousness given to me through Grace by Faith.

"Maybe I should just let you be my interpreter" :-)

Perhaps brother :-) Its only by grace I understand what you are talking about, I know many misunderstand what you are talking about. I use to be just as fervent as the rest until I saw how outrageously Holy Christ is, from then on out I found I can't contribute to my salvation anyway because this would seriously violate the meaning of Grace. So basically been there, done that and bought the t-shirt and so its easy for me to understand where you are coming from and I thank God for the path He has taken me on in order to do so.

OJ, after some prayerful consideration I want to apologize to you publically about my second to last post which I deleted. I think the tone and wording was uncalled for.

The faith that saves is the faith that surrenders.

KingJimmy wrote:

The faith that saves is the faith that surrenders.

Exactly. That sums it up well.

I would like to say this again, so that its clear our objection is not with Christ being Lord, He is obviously Lord of All whether Living or Dead. What my personal objection to this Lordship Salvation is it is completely dependant on "my surrender" rather than My Belief in Christ Jesus.

If I have had a true revelation of Christ in His Glory do you not think I will naturally surrender to how amazingly Holy and Awesome He is? It would be foolish not to, to my understanding though Lordship Salvation places an entire emphasis on the man surrendering rather than the Grace and Christ who saves Him. OF COURSE HE'S LORD! HE Defeated Death, what the natural assumption many of you all are making is that those oppose to Lordship Salvation have some kind of hidden agenda to remove the Lordship of Christ from our Lives, its quite the Contrary.

I surrender NOT because I desire my salvation to be secure because my Salvation can't be determined by my surrender but by GRACE alone, so I have no boasting. I SURRENDER because I willingly chose to Fully convinced that Christ Jesus is who He says He is and Fully convinced I am dead in my trespasses and Sin. My Surrender is out of Gratitude not a work of my Salvation. I love the Lordship of Jesus Christ and I have found One important thing that it has deeply rooted in it, Mercy and Grace. Both of which I don't deserve and both of which I can't earn by my personal Surrender. However Surrender will happen if True Belief has taken place in my Heart.

We get easy beliefism from people that are ignorant to who Christ is, or they wish to do as they please. Knowledge of Christ is so vital to a Christian that its literally the Life and Death of the Believer. That is why it is so important for Us not to focus on ourselves but to Keep our Eyes to Christ and proclaim Him so people will step into correct understanding of Him and His Glorious deity.

But please, please, please Get this Point Across, What Old Joe is saying is not abolishing the Lordship of Jesus Christ but placing a Correct emphasis on His Grace and Mercy, true biblical Belief and Repentance. Out of ALL of these FLOWS the Very ROOT of it all Belief in Christ Jesus, everything else Naturally Flow freely and willingly.

I would like to say this again, so that its clear our objection is not with Christ being Lord, He is obviously Lord of All whether Living or Dead. What my personal objection to this Lordship Salvation is it is completely dependant on "my surrender" rather than My Belief in Christ Jesus.

But please, please, please Get this Point Across, What Old Joe is saying is not abolishing the Lordship of Jesus Christ but placing a Correct emphasis on His Grace and Mercy, true biblical Belief and Repentance. Out of ALL of these FLOWS the Very ROOT of it all Belief in Christ Jesus, everything else Naturally Flow freely and willingly.

There. No hypocrisy, no vanity, no grudge of the famed elder brother of Luke 15.

Matt, Scripture is clear they must go together. There is no specific sequence of one going before the other. It is all included in the same act or event of conversion and continues throughout the Christian walk. What we are saying is that true faith and repentance involve surrender to Christ as Lord. And surrender to Christ as Lord is evidence of true faith and repentance. What OJ seems to be against is the fact that it is all included in the same package at salvation and throughout our life. He is against preaching the whole gospel which is a call to repentance and faith in Christ. The important thing is not deny one over the other or choose one over the other because Scripture clearly does not do that.

There is a sequence though, Can I surrender if I don't believe? This is something that I noticed with our Atheist visitor, He wouldn't and couldn't surrender to what He refused to believe in. And if I don't really believe what then would be the point of surrendering? In a sense we are saying the same exact thing, dear brother. But at what point does your evidence get such a great emphasis it is required for Salvation?

If I chose not to pray am I still a believer? Or if I miss a bible reading for the day, is my salvation void because an "evidence" wasn't presents since an evidence would be love for God's word? God is ultimately my judge no matter how much evidence I produce to say I am saved He will test my work with fire and what stands, stands whether I thought I was saved or not. BUT My hope isn't in my works or evidence but In Jesus Christ, period.

mguldner

There is a sequence though, Can I surrender if I don't believe? This is something that I noticed with our Atheist visitor, He wouldn't and couldn't surrender to what He refused to believe in. And if I don't really believe what then would be the point of surrendering?

OJ seems to preach that you can believe(savingly) without surrendering, a heresy known as easy believism. He does not just place the emphasis on faith in Christ and see surrender as a by-product and/or evidence. He completely seperates faith from surrender and deems it unecessary as a condition or evidence. He preaches a dead faith which makes no demands, a spurious faith which deceives and damns many souls.

It is the "gospel" of greasy grace and sloppy agape which focuses on a love relationship with God without regard to His holiness and righteousness. It leaves out the biblical fear of the Lord which is the begining of wisdom.

If I chose not to pray am I still a believer? Or if I miss a bible reading for the day, is my salvation void because an "evidence" wasn't presents since an evidence would be love for God's word?

"OJ seems to preach that you can believe(savingly) without surrendering, a heresy known as easy believism. He does not just place the emphasis on faith in Christ and see surrender as a by-product and/or evidence. He completely seperates faith from surrender and deems it unecessary as a condition or evidence."

Actually this is where you largely misunderstand OJ, He is not preaching a easy belief, his focus and point of view however is different than yours which as lead you to believe such a conclusion. He is saying the same thing you are just doesn't use the word surrender but the word trust. Say we did the good old trust fall, where one stands backwards and falls into the arms of another trusting the on catching will do their job, In midfall they are surrendered to the other persons decision to catch them. You and old Joe are essentially saying the same thing different words but the same thing nonetheless.

Our evidence really is nothing, its to no credit to our salvation because when you step into Christ you are infinitely saved by faith, if salvation requires evidence ie the more evidences you show the more saved you are that would be the equivilent of Adding One to Infinity it just doesn't make any sense Infinity is a never ending number and so impossible to add one to it. Either Christ Infinitely saves or He doesn't. My "evidence" or my service to Christ is not a requirement but it flows out of me naturally out of gratitude. It will happen, why? because I truly believe Christ is who he says He is.

"It is the "gospel" of greasy grace and sloppy agape which focuses on a love relationship with God without regard to His holiness and righteousness. It leaves out the biblical fear of the Lord which is the begining of wisdom."

I would disagree if you are equating Old Joes message with that of Easy Believism they are two different things and I would say Lordship Salvation is the greasy grace and sloppy agape that you speak of because like all other "false religions" it focuses on what man can do Rather than what Christ has done. It undermines the Work of the Cross as not enough for salvation because you must add in your evidence.

Yet another thing "my evidence" is not even mine, it doesn't belong to me but to Christ alone, He is the only one working because He is the only one working in me. I surrender(Trust) because I believe He is who He says He is and that HIS words are true about His Grace, Mercy, and Love towards me.

mguldner said:

Yet another thing "my evidence" is not even mine, it doesn't belong to me but to Christ alone, He is the only one working because He is the only one working in me. I surrender(Trust) because I believe He is who He says He is and that HIS words are true about His Grace, Mercy, and Love towards me.

Amen

You and old Joe are essentially saying the same thing different words but the same thing nonetheless.

Not really Matt. He calls my statements and beliefs on the gospel, the beliefs of preachers like Paul Washer and John MacArthur, and the beliefs of the majority of believers who've posted on this topic, a damnable heresy. He calls us all heretics who preach a false gospel. If we were saying the same thing in different words he would not come against our message so strongly. And he clearly makes non-essentials essentials, a matter of division.

Yet another thing "my evidence" is not even mine, it doesn't belong to me but to Christ alone, He is the only one working because He is the only one working in me. I surrender(Trust) because I believe He is who He says He is and that HIS words are true about His Grace, Mercy, and Love towards me.

How 'surrendered' was righteous Lot?

This was posted by UntoBabes in another thread:

Is Christ Your Lord? by A.W. Pink (1886-1952)

We do not ask, Is Christ your "Savior," but is He, really and truly, your Lord? If He be not your Lord, then most certainly He is not your "Savior." Those who have not received Christ Jesus as their "Lord," and yet suppose Him to be their "Savior," are deluded, and their hope rests on a foundation of sand. Multitudes are deceived on this vital point, and therefore, if the reader values his or her soul, we implore you to give a most careful reading to this little tract.

When we ask: Is Christ your Lord?, we do not inquire, Do you believe in the Godhood of Jesus of Nazareth? The demons do that (Matt. 8:28, 29) and yet perish notwithstanding! You may be firmly convinced of the Deity of Christ, and yet be in your sins. You may speak of Him with the utmost reverence, accord Him His Divine titles in your prayers, and yet be unsaved. You may abominate those who traduce His person and deny His Divinity, and yet have no spiritual love for Him at all.

When we ask, Is Christ your Lord, we mean, does He in very deed occupy the throne of your heart, does He actually rule over your life? "We have turned every one to his own way" (Isa. 53:6), describes the course which all follow by nature. Before conversion every soul lives to please self. Of old it was written, "every man did that which was right in his own eyes", and why? "In those days there was no king in Israel" (Judges 21:25). Ah! that is the point we desire to make clear to the reader. Until Christ becomes your King (1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3), until you bow to his scepter, until His will becomes the rule of your life, SELF dominates, and thus Christ is disowned.

When the Holy Spirit begins His work of grace in a soul, He first convicts of sin. He shows me the real and awful nature of sin. He makes me realize that it is a species of insurrection, a defying of God's authority, a setting of my will against His. He shows me that in going my "own way" (Isa. 53:6), in pleasing myself, I have been fighting against God. As my eyes are opened to see what a lifelong rebel I have been, how indifferent to God's honor, how unconcerned about His will, I am filled with anguish and horror, and made to marvel that the thrice Holy One has not long since cast me into Hell. Reader, have you ever gone through this experience? If not, there is very grave reason to fear you are yet spiritually dead!

Conversion, true conversion, saving conversion, is a turning from sin to God in Christ. It is a throwing down the weapons of my warfare against Him, a ceasing to despise or ignore His authority. New Testament conversion is described thus: "Ye turned to God from idols to serve (be in subjection to, obey) the living and true God" (1 Thess. 1:9). An "idol" is any object to which we give what is due alone unto God--the supreme place in our affections, the molding influence of our hearts, the dominating power of our lives. Conversion is a right-about-face, the heart and will repudiating sin, self, and the world. Genuine conversion is always evidenced by "Lord what wilt Thou have me to do?" (Acts 9:6). It is an unreserved surrendering of ourselves to His holy will. Have you yielded yourself to Him? (Rom. 6:13)

There are many people who would like to be saved from Hell, but who do not want to be saved from self-will, from having their own way, from a life of (some form of) worldliness. But God will not save them on their terms. To be saved, we must submit to HIS terms. Listen to His terms. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return unto the Lord (having revolted from Him in Adam), and He will have mercy upon him" (Isa. 55:7). Said Christ, "Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath (all that is, opposed to Me), he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:33). Men must be turned "from darkness to light, and the power of Satan unto God" before they can "receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified" (Acts 26:18).

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk ye in Him" (Col. 2:6). That is an exhortation to Christians, and its force is, Continue as you begin. But how had they "begun" By receiving "Christ Jesus the Lord"; by surrendering to Him, by subjecting themselves to His will, by ceasing to please themselves. His authority was now owned. His commands now became their rule of life, His love constrained them to a glad and unreserved obedience. They "gave their own selves to the Lord" (2 Cor. 8:5). Have you, my reader, done this? Have you? Do the details of your life evidence it? Can those with whom you come into contact see that you are no more living to please self? (2 Cor. 5:15)

O my reader, make no mistake upon this point: a conversion which the Holy Spirit produces is a very radical thing. It is a miracle of grace. It is the enthroning of Christ in the life. And such conversions are rare indeed. Multitudes of people have just sufficient "religion" to make them miserable. They refuse to forsake every known sin--and there is no true peace for any soul until he does. They have never "received Christ Jesus the Lord" (Col. 2:6). Had they done so, "the joy of the LORD" would be their strength (Neh. 8:10). But the language of their hearts and lives (not their "lips") is, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 1.9:14). Is that your case?

The great miracle of grace consists in changing a lawless rebel into a loving and loyal subject. It is a "renewing" of the heart, so that the favored subject of it has come to loathe what he loved, and the things he once found irksome are now winsome (2 Cor. 5:17). He delights "in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22). He discovers that Christ's "commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3), and that "in keeping of them there is great reward" (Psa. 19:11). Is this your experience? It would be if you received Christ Jesus THE LORD!

But to receive Christ Jesus the Lord is altogether beyond unaided human power. That is the last thing which the unrenewed heart wants to do. There must be a supernatural change of heart before there is even the desire for Christ to occupy its throne. And that change, none but God can work (1 Cor. 12:3). Therefore, "Seek ye the Lord while He may be found" (Isa. 55:6). "Search" for Him "with all your heart" (Jer. 29:13). Reader, you may have been a professing Christian for years past, and you may have been quite sincere in your profession. But if God has condescended to use this tract to show you that you have never really and truly "received Christ Jesus the Lord", if now in your own soul and conscience you realize that SELF has ruled you hitherto, will you not now get down on your knees and confess to God your self-will, your rebellion against Him, and beg Him to so work in you that, without further delay, you may be enabled to yield yourself completely to His will and become His subject, His servant, His loving slave, in deed and in truth?

Hello to all,

I believe this is going to last time I post on this thread, I have enjoyed talking about this topic and I have learned quite a lot about the subject.

Old Joe, posted many times what saving belief was ie a Faith and belief that "trust" what one believes. Trust and Surrendering are one in the same if not exactly the same thing, If I trust you with information I surrender it to you. When You actually Believe and have Faith in Christ you are fully surrendered to Him in every way but more spefically for your Salvation because you faith and trust is placed on His work on the Cross rather on what you have done or the evidence you show forth.

Why am I opposed so strongly to Lordship Salvation? Because I came out of it with Christ remaining my Lord, I fell under great bondage and condemnation for the evidence. Why? because it took my focus off of Christ and on what I could do to see evidence in my life. It quickly became a works based salvation and me constantly mistrusting the cross of Christ because if I wasn't a good little christian according to Lordship Salvation my salvation never existed.

I then saw the people of the Bible, not one of them was so perfectly surrendered to God and showed evidence constantly throughout their lives. I spent more time trying to prove I was saved through "evidence" than I did praising the Lord for His Glorious Work on the Cross. I then also saw that Many will say, "Lord Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast of demons." and I saw these people who were prophects and ones who had the ability to cast out demons presenting their work to justify their relationship with Christ.

Evidence does the same thing, Lord Lord did I not go to church, did I not "surrender", did I not pray, did I not read your word, did I not evangelize, did I not etc etc. I can see many many people on that day presenting to the Lord their works as their proof of salvation and their "surrender" as grounds for it rather than His grace and mercy and His work on the Cross.

Lordship Salvation very sublty does this so suttle its dangerous. I stand on nothing LESS, that JESUS CHRIST and HIS Righteousness, period. He is the grounds of my salvation. The devil always wants our focus off of Christ and onto self this does so in a non-negative way and decieves many.

Does Christ need to be Lord, well He certainly will be if you Truly Believe the Gospel.

Hello Matthew,
again, we are not denying that the gospel in it's core essence is trusting in the finished work of Christ apart from any works. That is what seperates us from other religions as you pointed out. We do not earn our way to heaven in the least. Our only plea is in the blood of Christ and His righteousness which is imputed to our account by faith. It is all of grace from start to finish.

Our concern is regarding other crucial aspects of the gospel and what it accomplishes in the life of the true believer. And our concern is regarding a rejection of numerous clear Scriptures which exhort us to deny self, and to examine ourselves in light of what Scripture teaches about being born again. Our concern is regarding a denial of the radical transformation which the new birth produces in the life of the saved.

For any who would claim to know the Lord the question has to be, as many passages of Scripture warn to the same effect, "have you had that transformation take place in your heart and life? Have you gone from loving sin predominantly to loving God above all else? Are you seeking to do those things that please Him and are you forsaking those things that He hates? Or are you still in love with the world and the works of the flesh and seeking predominantly to gratify the desires of the flesh? Has He radically transformed you and placed the fear of Him in you, causing you to walk in His statutes and keep His commandments(Ezekiel 36:25-27)?

Passages like 1Corinthians 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21 warn us that those who practice sin will not inherit eternal life. We are exhorted not to be deceived regarding the practice of sin. Those are clear warnings. Those who reject and deny those clear warnings are treading on dangerous ground to say the least.

We cannot pick and choose certain parts of the gospel or Scripture over others. It is about receiving the whole counsel of God. To deny and reject any clear and essential truths of God's Word is to deny God Himself.

Our concern is regarding other crucial aspects of the gospel and what it accomplishes in the life of the true believer.

There are no other 'crucial aspects' of the gospel. The gospel = good news. It is good news to hear that I have been redeemed and saved by the blood of the Lamb through faith, by grace. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

It is not 'good news' to hear, especially from religious people, that I need to pray more, read more, serve more, fast more etc as an addendum to the gift of salvation given me. I've been there, done that too, and thought myself something, when I am nothing.

Again, i agree, we are CALLED to walk as a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ and exhort and encourage others to do so also. 1 Thes 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort [you] by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, [so] ye would abound more and more.

However, the principal new relationship to God, in His eyes, is as a son, washed and made complete in Him; not as a servant or slave. In MY eyes I ought to see myself as a son positionally , and a servant practically.

God doesn't reject me because I haven't passed some threshold of holiness in this life. He accepts me based on a relationship to His Son, period. That relationship comes through faith for I believe though i see Him not.

Notice that: Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

He has chosen to change everyone who truly puts their trust in Him. Hallelujah!

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

What an awesome promise! I continue in faith and He continues to transform me, and conform me into the image of His Son.

by the way, John tells us His commandments that we are to follow: Believe in Him and love one another. When I love others, I, by default deny myself, let us abound in love that we would be doers of the word.

I hope we can stop proclaiming here who is and who isn't a heretic, speaking heresy, and other such nonsense. I don't think there is anough clarity and understanding from either side to be able to state such an accusation here.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."(James 2:14-26)

When James wrote, "show me your faith apart from works and I will show you my faith by my works" was he being self righteous, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Clearly not, right? I don't understand why there is such an issue with accepting works of righteousness as evidence of saving faith. Is that not what James is teaching. Please show me where or how I am misinterpreting that passage.

Alive-to-God wrote,

You're not misinterpreting that passage, but I think the issue in the spotlight is the stage before showing one's faith by one's works.

'I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.'

I can see the point there and would agree to a certain extent. The only concern would be in accerting dogmatically that one must fully understand the nature of the atonement before one can be saved. That was not the case with me. All I knew was that I was a wicked despicable sinner in the sight of a merciful, loving, and holy God; and that I desperately needed to get right with Him and stop running from His love. I came to my senses like the prodigal son. I just wanted to yield my life to Him knowing I could trust Him with the details. I was truly sorry for my sins against Him. I desired and delighted to forsake all sin and keep His Law out of love for Him. At first I thought I could actually keep His Law to a great degree, maybe even perfectly. But right away I realized my sins were much bigger than I thought. I realized lust was adultery and I had been so prone to it. I realized anger was like murder and I was prone to that also. I realized I could not keep His Law perfectly no matter how hard I tried, and I got discouraged with my flesh. But immediately He started revealing to me His amazing grace which He provided for me through Christ. I learned about His blood and righteousness which makes me right with Him despite my failures. I learned to trust in Him and His finished work on the cross. At the same time, I learned about the process of sanctification by the Spirit. Over time I looked back and saw that little by little He had broken chains of sin in my life which I had no power to overcome in my own strength. And I was grateful and joyful and wanted to continue to grow into His likeness, though I knew I could never be sinless in this life.

All that to say, at first I repented without knowing the full implications of the cross of Christ. I just came to Him as best as I knew how and He began a good work in me. That's partly why I have a hard time believing a testimony of conversion from someone who says they trusted Christ and his atonement without realizing their need to yield their life to Him also. To me that seems to contradict Scripture.

a777, I agree with almost all your post. But we still have to reconcile all that with the exhortation in James 2 and many other passages. Scripture seems to teach a balance of walking with Him in a trust/love relationship as His beloved child, and also walking with Him in fear/reverence of Him as His servant. If we choose one over the other we will have an unhealthy extreme. If we focus only on the love part, we will be apathetic, lukewarm, or lazy servants at best. If we focus only on the fear/reverence, we will be legalistic with ourselves and others at best.

If we focus only on the love part, we will be apathetic, lukewarm, or lazy servants at best. If we focus only on the fear/reverence, we will be legalistic with ourselves and others at best.

I don't agree there. I do agree we ought to fear the Lord, its the beginning of wisdom. However, no part of 1 Cor 13 tells us that love is apathetic or lukewarm or lazy.
1 Pet 4:8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."

I do agree with the second part of your post.
I was told when under the bonds of Lordship salvation that unless i spent at least 3 days in fasting it wasn't a 'spiritual fast'. I heard in the pulpit that if people weren't serving in the church there was a good chance they weren't saved. This is the problem with Lordship Salvation. Yes, He is Lord and I was made to worship and serve Him only, but my salvation is not based on performance, its based on faith. James is simply saying that true faith in Christ will bring forth fruit that is evidence of salvation. I explain that verse to Jehovah Witnesses and mormons often who think they must add to grace.

Of course if there is no fruit in your life then you certainly have to examine your faith.
Faith obeys, but my salvation is not a result of my faithfulness, but His. I know Whom i have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've commited to Him against that day.

I don't know about you guys but i've never grown more in the Lord then when I've got the cross of Calvary in full sight. When I consider how great a price was paid for me, how much the Father loved the world, I am motivated to pick up my cross and follow Him. When I think of how holy I have to be, how much I need to serve Him, how I am not like Jesus or Paul or etc i get buried in the weight of condemnation.

It needs to be said/written here, amidst the long tedious copy paste texts, that what an observer like me encounters as blindingly obvious. Some have totally melted hearts by the heat of God's love that they know no other as Lord. Some are just concerned about how they appear to God, or even, gasp, to men.

When the elder brother lamented:
‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

he thought he had a good sense of what is expected of him as the good son. Are not traits like slaving for his father, never disobeying his orders considered fruits of a son who is really grateful? If he is thankful, will he use them as leverage? He will rejoice like a little girl if his heart was really melted by his father's love rather than being concerned about his brother who, not only did not do what he did, but went to the other extreme.

Church-ianity, again.

JiG,

Thanks for posting the Oswald Chambers quotes.

They were food for the soul.

How 'surrendered' was righteous Lot?

So much so that when he left Sodom, he didn't look back.

Saving faith is the kind of faith whereby one responds to an overwhelming personal revelation of who Jesus Christ is, and what He has done. It's the type of faith that responds to a reality. In its essence it says, "Wow... Jesus Christ is Lord all creation... He really is risen from the dead."

And from that revelation comes the justifying faith that realigns one's heart and mind. That belief transforms one. For the confession of another as Lord is a belief that simultaneously causes one to surrender. You aren't saved because of the surrender, rather, you are surrendered because of you believed the revelation that saves. If you really believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead, you have surrendered. And if you have not surrendered, then you haven't had the revelation, and you haven't truly believed.

That is Biblical, Lordship salvation.

So much so that when he left Sodom, he didn't look back.

So much so that when he was dragged from Sodom, he didn't look back, but a few days later had relations with his two daughters, not a picture of a surrendered life.

"Dragged" is not the picture the Scripture paints of Lot. And the "relations" he had with his daughters was the equivalent of them drugging and raping him.

Alive-to-God, thanks for the reply. Looks like we are in much agreement on this topic.

Lkid, you wrote,

I don't agree there. I do agree we ought to fear the Lord, its the beginning of wisdom. However, no part of 1 Cor 13 tells us that love is apathetic or lukewarm or lazy.

What I meant was that if we only focus on God's grace and forgiveness there is a danger of taking it for granted and being apathetic in our attitude toward sin as opposed to waring against the flesh. The Word warns us of some who turn the grace of God into licentiousness(Jude 1:4).

Today we live in a time when the message of the gospel has been watered down so much that that has been the outcome by and large. Preachers like Paul Washer and John MacArthur see that and cry out against that watered down message that leaves out repentance.

Many of us have become accustomed to that watered down message so much that as soon as we hear strong preaching on repentance and denying of self to follow Christ we say, "Legalism!". Repentance preachers are often misunderstood and labeled as legalists or self-righteous today. But strong repentance preaching is what we see throughout the Bible and revival history, begining with the prophets, our Lord, the apostles, the disciples and so on.

Lkid you also wrote,

I was told when under the bonds of Lordship salvation that unless i spent at least 3 days in fasting it wasn't a 'spiritual fast'. I heard in the pulpit that if people weren't serving in the church there was a good chance they weren't saved. This is the problem with Lordship Salvation. Yes, He is Lord and I was made to worship and serve Him only, but my salvation is not based on performance, its based on faith

That is not what preachers like Paul Washer, John MacArthur, and many others advocate as the Lordship of Christ in the life of the believer. That is an example of strict, extreme unbiblical legalism and I can understand your strong stance against it. That is definitely dead "Churchianity" and should be avoided at all cost.

Of course if there is no fruit in your life then you certainly have to examine your faith.

Lkid, that's the main point some of us having been trying to make here, a point that is denied in the OP and has been frowned upon by others sadly to say. And for making that point we are misunderstood and labeled as legalists or self-righteous.

KingJimmy wrote,

Saving faith is the kind of faith whereby one responds to an overwhelming personal revelation of who Jesus Christ is, and what He has done. It's the type of faith that responds to a reality. In its essence it says, "Wow... Jesus Christ is Lord all creation... He really is risen from the dead."

And from that revelation comes the justifying faith that realigns one's heart and mind. That belief transforms one. For the confession of another as Lord is a belief that simultaneously causes one to surrender. You aren't saved because of the surrender, rather, you are surrendered because of you believed the revelation that saves. If you really believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead, you have surrendered. And if you have not surrendered, then you haven't had the revelation, and you haven't truly believed.

That is Biblical, Lordship salvation.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

My understanding of Lordship Salvation is summed up as follows, which was stated earlier: If He isn't Lord of All (in my life) then He isn't Lord at all. Meaning if I haven't surrendered completely in all areas of my life, then its because i wasn't ever truly saved. I have to disagree with that as I am still finding areas in my life that i have to surrender to Him and other areas that I had surrendered previously but that I have grabbed hold of the reigns again and must yet again submit them to Him.
But God is faithful to complete the work HE began in me. He works in me as I walk in faith, and when I fear man or something other than God and resist His will, then He cranks up the heat in me by His Holy Spirit's conviction through the word, and possibly cranks it up around me with circumstances that will lead me back to His will.

I hope i haven't said anything here in the last few posts that hasn't been for the edification of those here. I probably won't write again. [Let] your speech always [be] with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

Lloyd

Alive-to-God said:

What you've described here is normal.

If there was a 'like' button here, I would be punching the daylights out of it. :)

ws

I am not a do'er, I am a be'er.

I am who I am by the Christ in me and what He did and does.

God is not interested in what I do, but what Jesus did and does in me.

He has made me a be'er, to be what God in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the whole world, chose me to "be" in Christ Eph 1:4.

I cannot be in Christ without Christ being in me, that is who I am. The be'er whom Christ died for. Being whom He intended me to be, by the Christ in me. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, (The Christ in us) all else will be added unto us. If I have a wet sock, then the water is in the sock. If I am a new creature, then God's Son is birthed in me.

If we be, then we do the things the One who is life does and we are be'ers'.

A be'er in Christ not a do'er of self: Phillip

What you've described here is normal.

Amen, no disagreement there. James, after speaking of works as evidence of faith goes on to say, "for we all stumble in many things"(James 3:2). I certainly can attest to that and would never want to give the impression that I consider myself holier than thou. I have many areas the Lord continues to deal with me on. That said, I realize that as a preacher of God's Word I will be held accountable if I water down or sugar coat His message of repentance and faith in Christ and the truth of the new birth or any other truths of Scripture.

I thought of this video of preacher Tim Conway which I think gives a good example of preaching the Lordship of Christ. I'm posting the link here because I know the founder of this website is fond of Tim Conway's ministry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s19TU7F6QfI&playnext=1&list=PL8F85A8B31DCFF0B4

Disclaimer regarding last post,
toward the end of the video Conway mentions his belief in tithing, a belief which I completely disagree with. Other than that I thought the video was noteworthy.