Counterfeit of the Occult - Some things to know and remember

Anyone can see that there is a vacuum in the religious world, today. For generations the church has denied the supernatural and that the workings of the Holy Spirit are for the present time. The emphasis upon the intellect with its powers of reasoning has been the source of doctrine and practice which has ruled out the supernatural.

In this vacuum, the kingdom of darkness is generating a revival of the occult and the supernatural. In fact it is flourishing. The traditional church has become structured and is dead. People are turning from it and seeking reality elsewhere. Because man is basically religious, the occultic counterfeit fulfills his need.

There is reality in the supernatural of the occult.

Through the Occult man has discovered the reality of another dimension.

Through Jesus Christ you can discover the reality of another dimension, and that spiritual dimension is one that is not seen and is apprehended by faith.

Satan offers his counterfeits.

Faith is the vehicle that brings the supernatural into our realm, whether it is the reality of the Kingdom of God, or the reality of the Kingdom of Darkness.

The world of the occult is real. It is not a myth. Many people go on the premise that, "If it is real, then it must be right". They have ignored the reality of a spiritual enemy.

The world of the occult is supernatural and many people also go on the premise that "if it is supernatural, then it must be God!"

But, man has a supernatural enemy who is a counterfeiter.

The kingdom of darkness is opened by the occult. The occult hold keys that open doors and some of these doors are spiritism, psychic phenomena, extrasensory perception, divination, magic and satanism.

It is through the Occult that the counterfeit of the true workings of God have come. Jessie Penn-Lewis has a good appendix about "counterfeits" in her book "War on the Saints".

There is the true outpouring of the Holy Spirit which is supernatural (Joel 2:28, Acts 1:5,8).

In the true baptism one receives the Holy Spirit.
...in the counterfeit, one receives an unclean spirit

The Holy Spirit energizes the total person.
...the unclean spirit brings passivity to the total person

Jesus Christ is the baptizer
...the counterfeit works through mediums, seances, etc.

Some of these men today on T.V. and some of the ones doing crusades, and touching people and knocking them down, are not of God. Do you know of what spirit they are?

There are true supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.
(I Cor. 12:1-11)

True gifts of revelation (verses 8,9)
...the word of wisdom through the Spirit
...the word of knowledge according to the Spirit
...the discerning of spirits by the Spirit

The counterfeit has come in the form of:
...clairvoyance and clariaudience (ESP Of objects & events)
...precognition (knowledge of events not yet taken place)
...telepathy (direct experience of someone's thoughts

There are true gifts of power (verses 9,10)
...the gift of faith by the Spirit
...the gift of healing by the Spirit
...the gift of effecting miracles by the Spirit

The counterfeit has come in the same forms of:
...faith through concentration of thought and will
...healings through mediums with supernatural power
...supernatural manifestations (Rev. 13:13-15)

There are true gifts of inspiration
...the gift of prophecy by the inspiration of the Spirit
...the gift of tongues by the inspiration of the Spirit
...the gift of interpretation of tonges by the Spirit

The counterfeit has come in the form of
...divination
...tongues used by demonic powers

Would it surprise you that some "christian" ministers today are operating in these couterfeit powers?

2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The occultic powers focus on the mind, whereas the TRUE comes through the spirit and are ministries of the Spirit. The ministry of the TRUE does not require passivity or trances. "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (II Cor 3:17).

The Spirit of God does not consume the individual nor oppress him and the works of the Spirit are for edification and correspond with the fruits of the Spirit. The counterfeit corresponds with the works of darkness and the works of the flesh.

1. "Angels of Light" are uncovered by discerning of spirit (II Cor. 11:13-15, Acts 13:9, 10).

2. The witness of deceiving spirits is uncovered by discerning of spirits. "possessed with a spirit of divination", (Acts 16:16)

3. The doctrine of demons is uncovered by discerning of spirits (I Tim 4:1, II Pet 2:1)

4. The demon miracle workers are uncovered by discerning the spirits. "Signs and lying wonders" (II Thess 2:9), spirits of devils working miracles (Rev 16:14)

"Discerning of spirits gives supernatural insight into the secret realm of spirits. It reveals the kind of spirit that is activating a person who is manifesting supernatural knowledge or power." (Harold Horton)

"The very existence of this Gift proves the present reality of evil spirits.

They are wrecking and torturing human beings as cruelly as in the Lord's day.

At the very foot of the mountain of the Lord's glory they are still throwing men into the water and into the fire and over bridges and under trains and into gas-filled rooms.

Dare we come down from the peaks of selfish blessing and spiritual exaltation and seek earnestly such Gifts as will liberate the enslaved from the devil's malign power?

The tormented for whom Christ died?

Is it fear, or unbelief, or desire for ease in Zion that holds Christendom in the comfortable shelter of its hilltop tabernacles?" Harold Horton

A777

Good article and why many of us have had to leave most pentecostal churches.

Amen, the gifts are to set men free - if they want to be.

Good article.

I find that much of the working of the enemy takes place in the charismatic and pentecostal churches.

It doesn't mean he is not working in the more traditional churches, of course he is. He tailors his activities depending on the audience.

Jessie Penn-Lewis said something very revealing about that and I need to get my book and find it.

Something about those who are open to the Supernatural, or those that have been introduced to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, are more vulnerable to supernatural deception. I will find it and get back to you.

Just watching people go ga-ga over the likes of some "Christian" ministers nauseates me. I think they are powerful mediums operating under a counterfeit spirit.

I would like to name their names, but I think you can probably guess. Just turn to TBN and watch the guy with the Indian Nehru jacket on who combs his hair from one side to the other or watch someone on Youtube who recently was in Florida punching people in the stomach. Oy Vey!!! It's sad.

A777

I found it. War on the Saints, pg 50, The Baptism in the Holy Ghost (unabridged edition).

THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST

As we glance back over the history of the Church, and watch the rise of various "heresies" or delusions--as they have sometimes been called--we can trace the period of deception as beginning with some great spiritual crisis, such as that which, in later years, we have termed "the Baptism of the Holy Ghost"; a crisis in which the man is brought to give himself up in full abandonment to the Holy Spirit, and in so doing thus opens himself to the supernatural powers of the invisible world.

The reason for the peril of this crisis, is, that up to this time, the believer used his reasoning faculties in judging right and wrong, and obeyed, what he believed to be, the will of God, from principle; but now, in his abandonment to the Holy Spirit, he begins to obey an unseen Person, and to submit his faculties, and his reasoning powers in blind obedience to that which he believes is of God. What the Baptism of the Spirit means will be dealt with in a later chapter;note 1 at this point it is only necessary to say that it is a crisis in the life of a Christian, which none but those who have gone through it in experience, can fully under stand. It means that the Spirit of God becomes so real to the man, that his supreme object in life is henceforth implicit "obedience to the Holy Ghost." The will is surrendered to carry out the Will of God at all costs, and the whole being is made subject to the powers of the unseen world; the believer, of course, purposing that it shall only be to the power of God, not taking into account that there are other powers in the spiritual realm, and that all that is "supernatural" is not all of God; and not realizing that this absolute surrender of the whole being to invisible forces, without knowing how to discern between the contrary powers of God and Satan, must be of the gravest risk to the inexperienced believer.

The question whether this surrender to "obey the Spirit, " is one that is in accord with Scripture, should be examined in view of the way in which so many wholehearted believers have been misled, for it is strange that an attitude which is Scriptural should be so grievously the cause of danger, and often complete wreckage, to many devoted children of God.

You can read more:

http://www.acts1711.com/Contents.html (Chapter 3)

Here are the true workings of God and the counterfeit.
http://www.acts1711.com/TrueWorkings.html

A777

You are right there, about the pentecostals being some of the first to be deceived in this manner.
I've gone through quite a number of War on the Saints books in the last 35 yrs because of the worth of what's in it. As mentioned on the other thread I linked to on our present Warfare thread, I prefer the copy that has been abridged - [not edited] to explain that truly regenerated Spirit filled Christians cannot become demon possessed - but yet every time I'd buy another copy of this book - I'd pass it on to someone else. I have two copies now with differing Pub dates. The contents remain the same and it is worth keeping and I mostly appreciate the section on her view of "deliverance".

The thing that I've noticed in the last 10 yrs though is, that since Bill Hybels and others put out "tests" to find out what your gifts are - that it's not just the pentecostals that are getting into the counterfeit manifestation teachings and the manifestations themselves.
It's spread to the charismatics even before that. Counterfeit spirits all over the place now - where it comes to either manifestations of either "god" or "demons". That's why we may leave the churches but not leave His Word and His gifts. We need discernment now more than ever and will need that wisdom from Above more in the future than ever before in History.

Thanks 777.

Hi JiG,

That is why I opened this thread up with the "vacuum in the religious world". "For generations the church has denied the supernatural and that the workings of the Holy Spirit are for the present time."

But it cuts both ways. They have denied the true workings of the enemy, too. Jessie's book was abridged because theologians could not fit what she said and experienced into their theology. They even created a "fake" unabridged edition because they could just not countenance what she brought to light.

We generally think of the demoniac of Gadara when we hear the word "possession," but this not wholly representative of what it means to be "possessed" according to her defintion. You must read the book to understand.) The abridged version essentially gutted the book of it's power to liberate the Christian from the influences of demons.

It's ironic that I have been handing out the unabridged version since 1982 and many have testified that it helped them greatly.

I have found Jessie's book (unabridged, original text) to be biblical, balanced and believable.

There are some fake unabridged editions out there.

Here is the unabridged, full-text edition.
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/WarontheSaints/Intro.html

Shalom,
A777

It is interesting that the Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal, the very mother of Charismania, and the plethora of liars and deceiving false prophets, had it's birthing through the supernatural; THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.

Hordes of devoted Roman Catholics began to manifest "tongues", and thereby were received, primarily by Full gospel Businessmen, and other para-church organizations, and then mainstream Pentecostalism....which morphed into full-blown Charismatic denominationalism.

This {circa 1965] opened wide the gates of Holy Fellowship, denying what the "Protestant" church had kept sacred for 1900 years...to the anti-Christ doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Experience" trumped sound doctrine for the first time without the demand of repentance, and with acceptance of any Doctrine, as long as you possessed the Holy Spirit. You were accepted as long as you spoke with other tongues.

This opened the door to the great falling away we see in this perverted gospel of greed, self-serving, and crass materialism....all couched within the "Blessing." Anything goes now, except that fuddy-duddy Old time religion of continued repentance and faith toward God, and being covered by the Blood as the only way to God.

So are you saying on this thread that signs and wonders are no longer valid today? Ate you saying that the sign gifts of the Spirit disappeared when the scriptures were cannonized? Are you cessionist? Would be interested to hear your comments.

No, where did you get those thoughts from, martyr?

A777

I'm sorry 777, but there is virtually no Scriptural evidence that a spirit filled regenerated child of GOD can be co-habited {possessed} by demons.

Regardless how good an author's teaching may be it is always that 2% or so of error that throws people off the deep end. Even on this other thread on spiritual warfare - they also stated that "possession" is not possible with a Saint - Scripturally. And Scriptures are our only plumline to developing doctrines of the Church.

Experience does not form Doctrine. Developing names that are not used in our Bibles does not define practices.

You are giving the same argument, exactly as a member did named "urbanus" in another thread and it was proved also in that thread that this is error.
I have to stand by Scripture only and for the sake of those that haven't had opportunity to study up on this topic of Demonology.

Possession, as I said has been discussed on the forum before and recently and the proofs are there, that possession is never in a truly Born Again Christian.
Deception is though - and that can lead to a backslidden state, according to GOD's Word .... though a return to His Word from an honest repentent human can rescue them from such deceptions.
Jesus and His writers of our New Testament is what true Christianity is based upon - soley.

Crusader,

I can't read off of computer screens too much, and I don't know if it bothers you either, but here is the Full Text, Unabridged Version.

http://www.amazon.com/War-Saints-Full-Text-Unabridged/dp/0913926043/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303997968&sr=8-2

Read some of the comments on Amazon.

Lack of experience should not deny what the Word says.

We "color" the Word by our experiences or lack of.

A777

A777

Just trying to get clarification on what this thread is saying. There is a tendancy to overreact to the excesses of spiritual experiences and say they are not valid today. If I read this thread rght it seems that a caution of excessive emphasis on experience is wise. But I would not want to discourage the experience of Christ in a believer's life.

Hi Solomon,

Bluntness is ok, no problem.

To add clarity, yes, the enemy works in the non-charismatic camp, too. Obviously! There is plenty of deception to go around. Satan does not respect any Christian that opens the door (give place) to him and there are many ways to do this (sin, rebellion).

I was saying that those that open themselves up to the supernatural without proper grounding (understanding) in the Word pertaining to the supernatural, and without discernment are opening themselves up to seducing spirits and counterfeit supernatural gifts.

Satan is very effective in the churches that deny supernatural gifts, too. He has a different strategy for deceiving and keeping them in the dark.

Asking God scripturally for something is completely different from opening yourself up to the supernatural realm. "Abandoning" yourself to the spirit, I believe is one of the terms used. If you abandon yourself to a false spirit of Jesus, you certainly will not receive an egg, fish or loaf of bread.

Sincerity is not the protection against lies. I think we can all testify to that.

Regarding Jessie, Attacking any messenger of the Lord, does not necessarily disqualify what they have received from God. There are many illustrations of this down through the centuries regarding men and women used mightily by God. Do you want to start talking about dirty laundry of men and women of God? Who would stand up to our scrutiny? Would we listen to anyone?

Knowing about Jessie Penn-Lewis's faults or mistakes would not nullify the truths in her book.

If our lives were laid out to all in this forum, do you think anyone would listen to us?

Blessings to you, too.
A777

If you want everything she wrote and not what people who disagreed with her, took out. It's up to you. Links are in this thread.

Rather than go through this discussion again - my replies are on this link -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37171&forum=40&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

It seems that we can't stress the balance on this topic enough of late. There must be a reason and I feel that the days ahead are that reason - when deceptions coupled with fear will be rampant.

The warning of Paul, to not go beyond what is Written certainly was and always will be the order of the day.

GOD help us to put down our beliefs and 'experiences' at His Altar - at the feet of The Word of GOD Himself and that which is written. Pray one for another to sacrifice what is not from Him / His Word.

And may the Lord give us more understanding and light.

Amen.

A777

I used to know the brother in New York that published War on the Saints and he let me buy the hardbound edition from him for 10 bucks apiece! His name was Thomas Lowe. It has been handed down to another brother who wrote, "The Bible, The Supernatural and The Jews". This is an amazing book and you should pick one up for yourself.

It is out of print but I noticed that Amazon has 13 of them starting at 3.26. Used of course, but who cares.

Here is a comment and the link:
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Supernatural-Jews-McCandlish-Phillips/dp/0871230364

This is one of the best books that I have ever had the privilege of reading. The author is completely new to me, but the subjects of the Bible, the Supernatural & the Jews are not.
The author declares during the preface of this book that he had in fact initially sat down to diligently write another book on another subject, when suddenly & with no prior announcement, a theme was struck and words began to inexplicably flow with such a rapidity that three & a half days later, some 167 un-chaptered pages had piled up which form the basis of this book.

I appreciate that there will be many scoffers, and many who will undoubtedly approach this book with a degree of apathy or scepticism, but all I can say is that having studied the subjects concerned for many years, I fail to find any errors within what is written here on any of the subjects concerned or matters discussed.

The writer maintains that, above and beyond the natural realm, exists another realm peopled by unseen, intelligent beings. A supernatural domain of angels, demons exactly as outlined in the Bible, that are intensifying their involvement and contact with the human race in what the Bible describes as these `last days'.

A plethora of examples describes with incredible clarity and precision, this spiritual realm together with it's implications for each individual, the human race and the nations.

The book eloquently describes an affirmation of the Biblical and `spiritual reality' beyond `human reality'. Further to this the author describes the person of [evil], his reality, origin, intent, nature & agenda, together with a detailed explanation of the dangers associated with the occult & it's widespread disposition in so much of today's society and the world in general.

The book also examines the unique relationship of the Jewish people to Almighty God, a people who were chosen to be separate and distinct from other peoples and through whom God would provide blessing and the message of redemption to the whole world. The Jewish foundations of Christianity are also examined, as indeed are all the above matters in relation to their Biblical context.

I cannot recommend this book highly enough. I commend this even to the sceptics amongst you. It is so well written that no prior knowledge of these subjects is required.

Although sadly now out of print, this book is still readily available second hand. I shall continue to treasure my copy.

HERE IS ANOTHER COMMENT:

I didn't get very far into this book, when I had to run out and buy a bible to see if it really said what this book said that it said. (It was too good to be true, and I couldn't believe that what Phillips said was really in the bible.) It was, and I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough to give my life to the Lord. That was nearly 30 years ago, and they have been the best 30 years of my life thanks to McCandlish for leading me to Salvation.
Many times I have thanked God for this book. It truly is an annointed work, and I am eternally grateful to McCandlish Phillips for allowing the Holy Spirit to flow through him to produce this wonderful work. When we get to Heaven and see the bible in its entirety, this will be the Book of McCandlish.

Blessings,
A777

revised

Here is the thing. There is a camp that goes to one extreme and denies the supernatural and this is not helpful.

There is another extreme that blames everything on demons and this also is not helpful.

I will say that Jessie's and Mccandish Phillips books are excellent. My interest is more in helping people recognize the enemies workings in their lives and helping them get free.

But, everything you say could be very true about her. Satan always puts up a fight and humans always make mistakes. I think there are a lot of attacks on those who are in the business of exposing the works of darkness and a lot of times we are very naive.

It's always good to be on the alert and not take anything anyone says carte blanche until the Lord confirms it in your spirit.

Thanks,
A777

brothers and sisters eating bread together at the same table sharpening each others swords.

Crusader,

I will be the first to admit there is a lot I don't know and I am glad that the Lord sees fit to work through His Body to teach us (if we are teachable). We share what the Lord has shared with us. Just like you said and AtG quoted, below, we are "sharpening swords" and "eating bread together".

I am grateful that the Lord pushed me on to read certain books even though the authors were attacked and discredited. Would we expect anything less from the Evil One?

The worst thing we can do if we can't comprehend something is to vilify one another. We should just pray, "Lord give us light, give us understanding".

Christians are'nt really taugth about Satan. They are afraid to talk about him and that is just fine with the enemy. He has most people thinking that he just sits on their shoulders and tempts them. Believers think that talking about Satan glorifies him.

I am reminded of Howard Pittman, who testified that for 50 years in the Baptist church he was never taught about Satan. He was a brother that was greatly used of God in his latter years of his life. He was used more in the last part of his life than all of his 50 years walking with the Lord once the Lord taught him some things about the enemy that he never knew.

That was a bold statement by him, because he and his wife were foster parents of 13 children through the years and as a New Orleans police officer, he used to preach on the streets during the weekends.

If you can find his video of his testimony when he had a massive rupture of his aorta and died, you will not only be blessed but also be the recipient of some great insights into spiritual warfare. Obviously, he was brought back, but what he learned while "dead" for 15 minutes is very sobering.

Blessings to all,
A777

DEADn,

This is the exact book. White paper cover, red and blue print. 25.00-26.00

http://www.amazon.com/War-Saints-Full-Text-Unabridged/dp/0913926043/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303997968&sr=8-2

A777

There are a number of dubious attributes to Mrs. Penn-Lewis. Evan Roberts evidently had a nervous breakdown, and after his seclusion under Penn-Lewis's oversight, never again emerged to the forefront. She believed her writings were Divinely inspired, and it seems that everything negative was the devil's fault, to bizarre extremes.

Also, Let us not forget the admonition of the great Apostle:1 Timothy 2:11-13 (King James Version)

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

There is a reason for this to be obeyed. Women are not equipped to teach, or exercise authority over men. I have never, ever seen one who usurped this command, do anything but bring error into the body....Jessie Penn-Lewis included. My counsel is to avoid her teachings. BT.

Here is some comment and exact quotes from that original work., by biographer... Brynmor Pierce Jones.

“Both Jessie and Evan had been taught that the prayers of earnest saints could hasten divine events and that the hesitations of saints could hinder and delay them. So the Body of Christ — that is, the entire fellowship of believers — could now delay the dispensation’s ending, the return, and millennial age. In reply to this, the critics would say, quite correctly, that prayer-petitions are cooperative acts and not manipulative acts, and that they cannot change God’s timings.

Penn-Lewis took her demonology to incredible extremes even claiming to know exactly where demons could reside in the body of a Christian. This is purely gnostic: personal, subjective, secret, unmediated knowledge, at worst — and wild imagination, at best.

She proposed in War on the Saints that demons:

“Quote from original War on Saints by Penn-Lewis..... "bury themselves in the very structure of the human frame, some acting directly upon the organs or appetites of the body, others upon the mind or intellect, sensibilities, emotions and affections, and others more immediately upon the spirit."

" In the body they specially locate themselves in the spinal column, nervous system, and deepest nerve centres, through which they control the whole being; from the ganglionic nerve centre located in the bowels, the emotional sensibilities, and all organs affected by them, to the cerebral nerve centre in the head, the eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain."

" They may obtain access gradually and insidiously, as already shown, but there are instances where they make a sudden assault, so as to rush the victim into involuntary surrender.”...Jessie Penn-Lewis

From the perspective of Penn-Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers.

No wonder most of the circulated editions of War on the Saints are abridged and cleaned up with the extreme nonsense edited out. The book belongs in the “scary science fiction” section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore alongside the X Files.!!

Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the believer to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:

There is a multiplicity of errors here. The Bible does not take the position that besetting sins can be “supposed.” Hebrews 12:1 tells us we are to deal with our besetting sins precisely because they are ours. As well, Scripture nowhere teaches the concept of “counterfeit sins.”

This presents a dilemma for the believer. If he wrongly believes that the sin a demon committed (within him) is to be confessed as his own, he will bring even more of the “power of the enemy upon himself.” This could drive sensitive untaught believers to distraction or despair.

So, Penn-Lewis claimed that some of our sins may not be our sins and we are not responsible and in worse shape if we confess them. They are, in fact, the sins of the demons. But how could one ever really know?

I MADE ME DO IT

It cannot be stated too strongly that all personal sin is the person’s sin and must be confessed as such (James 1:14-16, 1 John 1:9). We alone are responsible for the sins we commit (Ezekiel 18). There is not one verse of Scripture that would suggest that demons can do their sinning through the mind, will and body of a believer. This ascribes to demons far more power and ability than the Bible does.....G. Richard Fisher...
See article at:
http://www.pfo.org/pennlews.htm

For a balanced look at sin in context to what she is saying. Looks like Fischer may have taken her words out of context.

TRUE WORKING OF SIN
Sin from the fallen nature: Is from within, carries the will with it, or else forces the will by its pressure. The man knows the movement to sin is sin and yet yields to it. Rom. vi. 6, 11 and 12 is God's way of dealing with the fallen nature, and its workings, as the believer stands on the ground of the Cross, and wields Christ's finished Calvary work as a weapon for victory. The Holy Spirit bears witness to the Cross in setting free from sin, when it is the outcome of the evil nature. Pages 229, 234, 247.

COUNTERFEIT
Sin caused by e.s., apart from temptation, is also within, but is forced into the spirit, mind or body, against the desire of the man, and should be recognized as distinctly not of, or from himself, e.g., blasphemous thoughts and unexplainable "feelings." If the "sin" infused by demons is dealt with as from the evil nature, although the person stands on Rom. vi. 6, 11, and refuse it, no deliverance comes, but when it is recognized as the work of demons, and resisted on the ground of the Cross, freedom is quickly given. Pages 133, 216.

SELF-EXAMINATION
Self-examination in the light of God: A discrimination of his own actions exercised by the spiritual man, which does not produce "despair," "disappointment," a "crushed feeling," etc., but leads to rapid decision of action and a joyous faith in the co-operating work of the Spirit in deliverance from all that does not bear the verdict of the light of God. John iii. 21. Page 56.

SELF-INTROSPECTION
Self-introspection, is made use of by evil spirits to throw the believer into self-accusation and despair. This drives the person inward and downward to crushed impotence and faithlessness. God never crushes His children. He convicts only to reveal the remedy. Evil spirits seek to turn souls into self-centred absorption whereas God moves in them to live and care for others. Page 159.

CONVICTION OF SIN
Conviction of sin: Comes from the Word of God, or by the direct action of the Holy Spirit, to the conscience, in times of quiet prayer or reading. It is never "vague" or confusing, and ceases directly the man decides to obey the Word, or go to God for cleansing in the Blood of Christ. True conviction is also a deepening experience, as the light of God shines into the conscience and life. Cf. Pages 229 to 234.

EVIL SPIRITS ACCUSATIONS
Evil spirits' accusations, which are a counterfeit of conviction, are from without, in the ear (audibly), or in the mind, in a "nagging" persistent, confusing kind of "speaking," often without definite purpose or specific reason. No "confessing" or "step of obedience" affects these accusations, and they come again and again over the same things. Many live under a perpetual cloud through the attacks of accusing spirits. They are under the shadow of being "always wrong." Cf. Pages 229 to 234.

CONFESSION OF SIN
Confession of sin: To God and man, should be the deliberate act of the will in obedience to the Word of God, and conscience. It should be followed by sincere repentance and putting away of the confessed sin, and have the witness of the Spirit to the conscience that the sin has been put away through the efficacy of the Blood of Christ. Page 133. (3)

COMPULSORY CONFESSIONS
Compulsory confessions, by the driving power of evil spirits upon the mind in accusation, or from remorse; or, to silence the accusing voices, the man is sometimes impelled to "confess" "sins" which have no actual existence. Page 133. (4)

A777

**UPDATE**

I saw Whitestone's post after I made this post. Just wanted to say that I don't think about demons, go looking for them or in any way am consumed with them. I am consumed with Jesus Christ and desire to know Him more and more. With that said, it has been a benefit to me and others to have more and more of my ignorance of the powers of darkness and their workings dispelled.

Back to my original post.

Two additional things I just wanted to mention.

There are many things I don't understand or have light on. For instance, I don't understand many things that Watchman Nee says in his huge volume, The Spiritual Man, yet, I don't then conclude that what I don't understand is unscriptural or unbiblical or not realistic.

The other thing is that I don't have any problem with Jessie Penn-Lewis writing books and sharing what the Lord has given her, any more than I have a problem with the Sisters in this forum sharing from the Word of God what they think is being said, or what God has given them.

I have a few more of Jessie Penn-Lewis' books, mostly all small books. One of the very best I have ever read on Job, is the her book, "The Story of Job". Most all of her other books are about the Jesus Christ and the Cross. Here are some other books I have and recommend and I have not found anything unscriptural in them. They insights have been a blessing to me and I am not in the least ashamed to say I have learned much from what she shares, just like I have learned from the Sisters in this forum. I don't feel like Jessie is exercising authority over me. I can freely buy her books or not buy them.

There is neither male nor female in Christ.

Centrality of the Cross
the Climax of the Risen Life
Dying to Live, Dying to Live With Christ
The Work of the Holy Spirit, Fruitful Living
Spiritual Warfare
The Cross of Calvary
Communion with God
Face to Face
Thy Hidden Ones
The Cross, The Touchstone of Faith
The Conquest of Canaan
The Warfare with Satan and the Way of Victory
The Cross of Calvary
The Story of Job

Kindly,
A777

Brothertom, I would like to respond to your post. I hope I don't come over as declamatory. I do not mean my questions as pure rhetoric, but as a way of offering what I believe are fair comments, for your consideration.

She proposed in War on the Saints that demons: "bury themselves in the very structure of the human frame, some acting directly upon the organs or appetites of the body, others upon the mind or intellect, sensibilities, emotions and affections, and others more immediately upon the spirit."

" In the body they specially locate themselves in the spinal column, nervous system, and deepest nerve centres, through which they control the whole being; from the ganglionic nerve centre located in the bowels, the emotional sensibilities, and all organs affected by them, to the cerebral nerve centre in the head, the eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain."

" They may obtain access gradually and insidiously, as already shown, but there are instances where they make a sudden assault, so as to rush the victim into involuntary surrender." - from original War on Saints by Penn-Lewis

From the perspective of Penn-Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers...

Regarding the 'possession' of believers, in the thread discussing Jim Logan's series, 'Spiritual Warfare', some of us accepted that demonic 'influence' over a believer is a more appropriate term. It would rest on whether the believer did not have the Holy Spirit, when 'possession' may apply.

Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the believer to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:

Another two examples I've thought, are when James and John offered to call fire down from heaven:
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

And, at the Last Supper when Jesus said '... Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?' Matthew 26:21. They had no idea whether they were implicated or not.

Isn't that interesting?

Another two texts which show the unrelenting nature of the onslaught against our minds, are Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. {Satan: that is, an adversary} {to...: Heb. to be his adversary} and,

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If this can happen before a person receives the Holy Spirit, surely it can happen afterwards, when the believer may begin to learn to recognise those voices?

The Bible does not take the position that besetting sins can be “supposed.” Hebrews 12:1 tells us we are to deal with our besetting sins precisely because they are ours.

The 'besetting sins' really mean that they are still outside - at the temptation stage - rather than having been committed, and, they are to be 'resisted' according to v 4. In this respect, they are not 'ours'. We are being attacked with them. When this happens inside the body, (or the mind only), it is a mean torment and distraction from normal living, and not necessarily because the saint has chosen to sin.

I sincerely believe that we've had our fair share of demons for a while.

This is bringing nothing but division because we should only give as much space to a teaching as the LORD does through His Apostles. We've gone way over-board already.
Misunderstandings are abounding and I don't doubt that that in and of itself is what exactly begins to happen when we give satan more power than he actually has before our Creator GOD.

Tom made some very good points and I fully understand White_Stone's point and the Blessing that Sister Star mentioned of Corrie Ten Boom.

These quotes from Tom are important and what the majority of our in-fighting has been about - "the Excesses in Demonology" and why I mentioned the abridged version.
Since reading it - I also have read articles of what happen to Even Roberts but there is more and Tom brought more out - Thank GOD.

Quote Tom's post - quoting JPL -

She proposed in War on the Saints that demons:

“Quote from original War on Saints by Penn-Lewis.....

"bury themselves in the very structure of the human frame, some acting directly upon the organs or appetites of the body, others upon the mind or intellect, sensibilities, emotions and affections, and others more immediately upon the spirit."

" In the body they specially locate themselves in the spinal column, nervous system, and deepest nerve centres, through which they control the whole being; from the ganglionic nerve centre located in the bowels, the emotional sensibilities, and all organs affected by them, to the cerebral nerve centre in the head, the eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain."

" They may obtain access gradually and insidiously, as already shown, but there are instances where they make a sudden assault, so as to rush the victim into involuntary surrender.”...Jessie Penn-Lewis

IF a sincerely regenerated child of GOD begins to believe extremes like this - they are in for a world of inner torment and many times are left alone with these fears.

There is so very much I wouldn't or couldn't talk about on the other warfare thread - but I just can pray that someone would just go to our New Testaments and learn from it Alone how much attention the enemy should receive. We can learn ALL there is to know in the "Handbook" that Jesus left for us.
Yes, agreed, there are good teachers on this topic - but a good teacher does not tell Christians that they can have demons IN them. Our adversary, the devils, seeks whom he may devour - BUT BUT BUT there's the entire weight of Scripture behind us ... like our "Armor" our "Authority in Christ" our "Position in Christ" and so forth.

There 'is' a fine-line that once crossed in this area of demonology that you yourself will open yourself up to attacks or your family will be.
Our Authority in Christ - the fact that we also do Not blame demons for our sin - will protect not only ourselves but our families.

We are there for anyone who is "possessed" that needs deliverance knowing they are Not Saved and need Salvation quickly. That ministry is only for those who know where they stand in Christ and know His Word like they know their own children's names.

I'm grateful for Tom's post. I believe he doesn't mean to silence Sisters but there is a principle in GOD's Word about women teaching "with authority over men" that isn't Scriptural and that's what JPL did with Roberts and others.

We have to face the good with the bad in ANY teacher/preacher and be honest with the knowledge that there is not one 100% innerant teacher on earth. Only His Word is - and we work as a Body to discern right from wrong.
We need to look at His Word together and not prefer one teacher over another - is what Paul said - when he brought up "not going beyond what is written" so that you won't prefer one teacher over another.

GOD has called us to Peace and as I heard last night from some dear ladies - WE NEED TO START LIFTING UP JESUS!

Amen - Thank you to those who felt or feel that way.
Amen - Thank you!

I am not sure what "division" that JiG says this is bringing. I think this is just revealing what people already were believed. That's the way it is in this forum. Subjects are discussed and people line up on one side or another. I don't think this subject is threatening our unity in Christ, do you?

Are we suppose to agree with each other just for the sake of agreement?

If we cannot talk about things that relate to life and death, then we are to be pitied.

AtG,

Good comments.

I don't understand why some want to shutdown conversation as if we already know everything and there is nothing more to learn.

I can guarantee that Jackie Pullinger, who many here admire, including myself has had to minister deliverance to believers. Many of the people that she ministered to came out of a horrible drug life and the occult. I wish she was part of this conversation. I think that those of you who have not experienced anything like this that the fair-minded and gracious thing you should do is at least be open but not try to shutdown discussion.

We all know basic things like unforgiveness turns to bitterness and bitterness to hatred and hatred eventually to murder (in the heart and sometimes externally).

The other thing that we know even from secular doctors and researchers is that bitterness causes sickness. I mean, we don't need secular doctors to tell us this, but it is interesting that even they know it.

So, why in the world would it be so hard to believe that demons cause far worse ailments. It is all over the NT that sicknesses are caused by demons.

It is amazing how many Christians bless God for their sickness as if it came from Him and it is a blessing.

I have already said that I don't understand everything Jessie Penn-Lewis said, but it seems to me that the gracious thing for a Christian to do is at best, not to be dogmatic and at worst not to vilify.

It certainly is scriptural that the powers of darkness cause sicknesses, deformities and torments. Why do we ignore all these scriptures in the NT.

Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

It is funny how everyone thinks that a demon possessed person is like the classical demoniac.

I find it interesting that no one has ever commented on James Robison's deliverance. Was he not saved?

The Lord wants us to possess the land, entirely!

A777

NOT in Born-Again Christians 777.

I am telling you - that if you glorify demons, devils, fallen angels, satan Above What Is Written - you and whomever else brings these things here - are opening the doors to de-Glorifying what our King of kings has done for us.

James Robinson is off the wall and always has been.

I thought you were into true "apologetics" 777?

These first two verses you've posted had/have nothing to do with Born-Again Christians.

Paul writes on a few occasions about "sick" friends of his - like Timothy - just for one.

You're also opening the door to "All sicknesses are from demons" belief.

You are not posting like an Overcomer!

You are not Glorifying "the King of the Saints".

You are crossing 'that' line between sound doctrine and doctrines of demons.

We cast demons out of Unsaved people.

If you persist in this - I will tell you and whomever else - you will Not be an Overcomer and the Word of GOD warns what is coming just around the corner - so with your demon-mania - you won't make it very easily - you're an open target now .... but that could change if you'd bring yourself under The Authority of Christ and Him crucified again ... even in the "little things".
You're looking for Power without a fully sanctified life and over-compensating for that not-fully-sanctified life with a desire for "power" that HE will not permit nor "posses land" - whatever on earth that means to you.

I could tell you what days we're living in - but there are "innocents" reading here that don't need to hear it.

I download threads as well sometimes and notice when posts are changed completely. I've downloaded a few so far, for educational purposes.
Take what I've posted here or leave it - but I ask you to please check your own life and habits before you proceed on this topic.

NOT in Born-Again Christians 777.

You're also opening the door to "All sicknesses are from demons" belief.

You are not posting like an Overcomer!

You are not Glorifying "the King of the Saints".

You are crossing 'that' line between sound doctrine and doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Sister JiG, you may be uncomfortable with this topic, in which case you could stop opening threads about them. The title of the thread is very clear. But, while you are posting, why not restrain your comments to the material which is under discussion only, so as to not to fall into making judgements about other posters' relationships with God?

On reading the paragraph from Timothy, above, how it ends is interesting. It reminds me of Peter's experience at Joppa, and what had been his manner of thought before the vision, which he explains to Cornelius in Acts 10:28 '... Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.'

Yet at the end of Acts 9, he had been left alone with the dead body of a Jewish lady 'disciple' (unclean to a Jewish person), without any qualms whatever. Does this conflict not show how it is possible to be deceived as to God's opinions? Alternatively, one could say that Peter was extremely quick to walk in a new understanding once he'd had the REVELATION from God. We ALL need revelation.

We cast demons out of Unsaved people.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 but unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 and rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

If you persist in this - I will tell you and whomever else - you will Not be an Overcomer and the Word of GOD warns what is coming just around the corner - so with your demon-mania - you won't make it very easily - you're an open target now .... but that could change if you'd bring yourself under The Authority of Christ and Him crucified again ... even in the "little things". You're looking for Power without a fully sanctified life and over-compensating for that not-fully-sanctified life with a desire for "power" that HE will not permit nor "posses land" - whatever on earth that means to you.

I could tell you what days we're living in - but there are "innocents" reading here that don't need to hear it.

Believers will be MORE protected by walking in the light (as He is in the light), clothed in His righteousness and the armour of light, than by conspiring to hide truth from them.

It is interesting to me, that when I posted earlier, that...

" Let us not forget the admonition of the great Apostle:1 Timothy 2:11-13 (King James Version)

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

There is a reason for this to be obeyed. Women are not equipped to teach, or exercise authority over men. I have never, ever seen one who usurped this command, do anything but bring error into the body....Jessie Penn-Lewis included. My counsel is to avoid her teachings. ..[ original post ]BT."....................................................................

That those who disagreed with me...seemingly ignored the fact that this is SCRIPTURE....not the rantings of a macho preacher. Paul the apostle wrote this, to his second in command, his son in the faith, as he was facing certain martyrdom at Rome...and this command was somewhat of a pillar in the structure of authority within the fledgling early church...of which we are her offspring.

This was the Apostle Paul's last will and testimony....exceedingly important. Women were not to be given authority over men, nor the right to teach and discern the Doctrines of the Church. They are not equipped to do so.

So, do we explain it away as trivial, or outdated, or "oppressive"? ..So, do we let experience rule here, or the word of God?

I would that every sister on this forum would walk in the authority of God to cast out demons....and to preach the Gospel to the Lost, all over the World. I sincerely believe that we are neither male nor female in Christ.

If this is true, then Isaiah 61 is true also.....it is the Ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Believer...which is either male, or female. It is Christ manifesting Himself, within his Church.

Women born again should declare their faith..[preach..KJV..]..Minister mercy...[bind up the brokenhearted..]..PROCLAIM liberty to the captives..[proclaim is with your voice, the last time I checked..]..and set people free...[open prisons..KJV]...

This is by the Holy Spirit.What does that mean to you?..It means to drive the devil away from those who have been imprisoned to me...and casting out demons...YES!

Men and women also proclaim their faith...and should often..in the marketplace, to their children, and neighbors. This is ministry....should this be forbidden?...and to proclaim His certain return!!...[ KJV.....the acceptable year of the LORD!!]..to the marketplace, the home, and wherever she or he should go!..Is this Evil?

And on and on...bringing the comfort and life of Jesus wherever they are...in Church meetings...[ I HOPE!] or out. This is the ministry...the Priesthood of the Believer...Male or Female. Women, in the midst of this, however, should not teach holy doctrine, nor usurp authority over men. It breeds confusion, and error to do so.

All of Isaiah 61...but no Eldership..Pastorship...Shepherdship...[ All plural, all the time..No hireling professionals allowed.]

Isaiah 61
1. The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2. To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6. But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

So are women also called Priests of the Lord?...and Ministers?...YES!...if they are participants of the Holy Spirit; Born again....Of course they are....as well as possessing any and all of the gifts of Charisma...the gifts of grace...[ not charis-manic...but charismatic..].

To me, this cannot be disputed...that God would shut up a class of Christians and not allow Himself to manifest within. It is absurd.

The issue is not authority with God...sisters obviously have as much as men can....but the authority in question is authority within the Church....different altogether.

In that realm...NO!...No Pastorettes, No Teachers...Teachers of Holy Doctrine...because it is so important..to live or to die, life or death, and women....THE APOSTLE SAYS...are not equipped to. They are the weaker vessel...not inferior vessels. There is no male or female in Christ.

This thread is about the occult...and somewhat based on Penn-Lewis and her book...War on the Saints. It is a teaching...and it is steeped in convoluted ideas that are espoused in dogmatic terms..."She proposed in War on the Saints that demons:

“Quote from original War on Saints by Penn-Lewis..... "bury themselves in the very structure of the human frame, some acting directly upon the organs or appetites of the body, others upon the mind or intellect, sensibilities, emotions and affections, and others more immediately upon the spirit."

" In the body they specially locate themselves in the spinal column, nervous system, and deepest nerve centres, through which they control the whole being; from the ganglionic nerve centre located in the bowels, the emotional sensibilities, and all organs affected by them, to the cerebral nerve centre in the head, the eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain."

" They may obtain access gradually and insidiously, as already shown, but there are instances where they make a sudden assault, so as to rush the victim into involuntary surrender.”...Jessie Penn-Lewis

There is something grieving, to me, about this entire rant of Penn-Lewis'....Divinely inspired? I think not. This is the fruit of sensationalism, combined with a shrill fear about the dark supernatural, and is simply conjecture born out of these emotions.

The simplicity of Christ and His indwelling power, as being greater than he who is in the world...should be enough for even the babes in Christ born again..and this type of teaching is somewhat fear-mongering, and defies the simple truth of resting in Christs love, and secure in His Peace.

[More later on Christians and demons...my thoughts...BT].

JiG,

I did not ask you if James Robison was "off the wall" or not, I asked you, based on your expert opinion, was he saved? Interesting how you dismiss the question, hence you don't have to answer it.

Now, I just want to bring something up. There is a ministry called Exodus International. It is a ministry strictly to Homosexuals. This is what they say, and this is probably more accurate to what Jessie says, also and what I believe based on my experience and the Word.

"They make this observation in order to clarify that even though Christians truly can have demons, they cannot be demon-possessed nor be "owned/possessed" by them since THEIR OWNERSHIP IS ALREADY IN CHRIST. Demons in a Christian's life can be no more than "tenants" or "invaders" that must be confronted and cast out."

This is based on their experience with hundreds and hundreds of people they have ministered to. This also squares with the Old Testament teaching on warfare. Even as the Children of God (who God said He purchased and redeemed) came into possess Canaan, there were "tenants" that had to be driven out. Exo 15:11-18, Exo 23:30-33 for a couple of scriptures.

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

I find some of the flat out statements of denial and subtle villification astounding. I think the reason is that most people if they don't understand something they dismiss it.

I think we would have a more realistic discussion if all your statements were grounded in the fact that you have ministered to others that have come to Christ out of extreme homosexuality, drugs, occultic involvement or physical abuse to name a few. I think you would understand that there are still 'tenants' in the land and that there is something more than self/flesh causing harassment to the individual.

IF THE CAUSE IS SPIRITUAL THE SOLUTION MUST BE SPIRITUAL and not physical or psychological. We need discernment.

We are glorying in the power of God to set the captives free and not giving glory to the enemy. The enemy would rather we not talk about this. The more ignorant he keeps us, the happier he is and the more effectively he can work.

A777

A777: wrote: "That's the way it is in this forum. Subjects are discussed and people line up on one side or another. I don't think this subject is threatening our unity in Christ, do you?
Are we suppose to agree with each other just for the sake of agreement?
If we cannot talk about things that relate to life and death, then we are to be pitied."...................

I agree; A777. There will always be differences in our outlooks and opinions...and because we disagree should never be a reason to reject another.

The massive Baptist denomination...in which there are possibly hundreds of offshoots...each took their marbles, and went home, and simple started their own church...and it was the correct one, by the way.

Find a church that is totally mentally in agreement, and I'll show you a cult. I must respect my brother [sister] in these arenas, and understand that it is pride not to. If I insist that it's my way, or the highway...well...I am then guaranteed wrong.

We are nudged by the moderators here; [ who do a fine job.....] to keep our eye on the ball, the issue, not the man who may or may not agree with us. Focus on the bigger issue...the content of the thread in it's tenor, and our ideas about it's association to Christ and the Word...the Bible. We are going to disagree now and then...and we are all learning. No one here has hit the plateau of pure maturity.

I see this thread as healthy, as A777 has said, and interesting too. These are issues that should be addressed, and when we are brushed against another , expect it. Irons sharpens iron, for the wise, but the blade stabs and cuts for the selfish.

Thank you for your graciousness, BrotherTom.

I prefer to get back on the topic rather than different individual lives such as Jim Logan or JPL. We are all fallible.

A777

Christians possessed. A testimony.

In 1994 I went to the first large meeting at the Toronto Airport Vineyard in Canada, in which Randy Clark, [ via Rodney Howard-Browne ] presided. This movement was the mother of the modern aberrations, such as the demonic Todd Bentley...and a plethora of other bizarre "prophets", documented right here on SI.

I qualified for the ministry team, being a prophetic older brother, I guess. When things got hopping...well...it was a cross between a barnyard zoo, and that Star Wars bar scene . There was barking, and baa-baa-ing, and people flapping like Eagles..[prophetic call..]...and wide eyed spectators. John Arnott, and others were bringing people to the stage, and assigning a spiritual title to every manifestation.

I determined right then that when I ministered to anyone, I would state that our freedom, and grace and healing was possible only because Jesus was Crucified, and shed His own Blood willingly for our good out of Love.

I prayed for a lot of people, and two women approached me, and asked me to pray for their young daughter, a 14 year-old downs-syndrome girl, who was manifesting the demonic. I complied, and sought a private place in the large hotel, along with the girls overseers, and began to pray.

It became obvious that there were unclean spirits lodged in her....as a stench came over her, a deathly gray pallor, and a writhing when the Name of Jesus was mentioned. Voices came out of her mouth...different than hers, speaking in unison that the girl belonged to them, with foul curse-words.

Her mouth curled up like a trumpet.....and it seemed that we were very close to true deliverance, when an Elder burst in. He had been informed that someone was casting out demons. This was not allowed at the meeting. I protested, but he said that I would be thrown out of the building if I resisted....[ it was a private hotel, and he could and would..]...so I stopped my deliverance praying.

He then proceeded to straddle her, on top of her, and as I live.....He cast the demons back inside of her. "I command you! Go back inside of her!" The devils, of course complied. The mother and aunt were in shock, and in bewilderment, began weeping. They saw how close we were.

I too, was in shock. How could this be? but it was. Later, I received a letter from the family of this girl, thanking me, and it seemed that there was a degree of healing. My question here is; "Who had the demons?"

Hello Jesus-is-GOD, and any others reading.

I keep seeing this sentence when I open the thread, and want to share some more thoughts.

I'm sorry 777, but there is virtually no Scriptural evidence that a spirit filled regenerated child of GOD can be co-habited {possessed} by demons.

However, on the strength of what is WRITTEN in the New Testament, there is no evidence that all demons leave when a person is born again.

Paul Washer (and others) refuse to declare a person is born again, (saved, filled with the Spirit) as a judge from the outside the life, merely observing it. But, if a person testifies to new birth, PW will want to know how the person knows. He wants to hear that not only their relationship with God has changed, but also their relationship with sin.

So, there are various questions we might ask about the scriptural record.

One would be, why did the apostles not have to cast demons out of at least some of the men who wanted to be baptised, on the day of Pentecost, SO THAT they could receive the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't we expect this to be mentioned?

Associated with this question might be to wonder why John the Baptist didn't have to cast demons out for people to be counted fully repentant before they were water baptised? He was baptising before Jesus' ministry began.

Another question is, why doesn't Paul mention demons directly in his letters to the churches?

Might it be because everyone in those days was conversant with the connections between certain sins (like all the abominations associated with idolatry) and the demonic realm? Paul thought he was educating US sufficiently by urging Christians to cease from the sins he named (ref OT for detail). In fact, did he name only THOSE sins BECAUSE of their connection with demonic influence?

So, could we draw any conclusions from the post-Pentecost near-silence on demons? Might it be they don't actually have the power to prevent a person being saved? Just a thought...

I mean, what if a person was honestly battling with a sin since salvation, but they died before they had fully overcome that demonic stronghold. Could a demon prevent their spirit going to be with the Lord? I don't think so.

You know, I like the idea that being saved protects us from all demonic attack, gives us insight and wisdom to recognise them when they hit us, and throws a kind of automatic lever spiritually which means we instinctively never fail or fall in our real daily lives. But we DO have to wrestle with spiritual principalities and powers, according to Paul, John and Peter.

I will close with this one last thought, that, if it IS true that demons leave a person before the Holy Spirit can come in, then why can we not find ONE verse in the New Testament which reassures the Church on this point?

Very well said, Alive-To-God...Amen. I appreciate your attitude of the Word First....experience second.

The Greek word for our idea about demon possession is translated "demonized". People, Christian or not, can come under the influence of demons.To me, this is beyond doubt.

There is such a thing as deceiving spirits, and doctrines of devils, is there not? I think it is an issue of believing the "LIE", or the Truth and that is the crux of the War against the saints.

In essence, being demonized can be "influenced", and in varying degrees. Consider the thought of going out and buying a quart of Jack Daniels sour mash whiskey, and slamming it all down in an hour or so. You are going to be "under the influence"...drunk.

This is similar to the idea of demonized.

If we consider apostasy, or backsliding in these terms, isn't it possible that Christians who leave the foundation of Christ, and through sin or unbelief, "invite" imps and devils to Lord over them, could be motivated by them?

1 Corinthians 10:19-21 (King James Version)

19. "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20. But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

and..1 Corinthians 6:.."Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body." ....by partaking of the table of demons, joining with them, while possessing the Spirit of Sanctification.

I have witnessed, and have seen delivered, several people who professed Christ get delivered of unclean spirits in dramatic fashion; some, nearly as intense as "The Exorcist" movie.

In every case of true Deliverance, when the demons left, I have witnessed the sweet and powerful indwelling holy Spirit manifest Himself, with Holy Tongues, and worship, and great joy and Love resting upon the delivered.

So where do I put this? I believe Alive to God made some very powerful points. Where is the scriptural evidence and instruction? If this was such an important issue that we would encounter often, then WHY?? is it not addressed by the Apostles ?

Revelation 18:1-3 (New King James Version)

Revelation 18
The Fall of Babylon the Great.

1. After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.

2. And he cried mightily[a] with a loud voice, saying,

“Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

3. For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

What if some, after having witnessed the Holy Spirit, never fully "Came out of Babylon?" I have witnessed this in Roman Catholic "Charismatics" who continued idol worship..[literally praying to statues, icons, and jewelry symbols] and had demonic attachments. They drank of the wine of Babylon, a Spiritual wine, that inebriates the soul with the demonic.

I think of some of the wicked ideas that were derived from the Word of Faith movement, where Materialism and getting more became the blessing; where men proudly set themselves up as a god to fulfill their lusts, and called the getting "THE ANOINTING, and the Holy Father became their slave to adorn them with whatever they confessed...Health, Happiness, and Prosperity.

This, to me, is as demonically perverted as any Roman Catholic Mass is........" And has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird."

Influenced, demonized! Consider the incredible perversion of the gospel the Todd Bentley preached, along with Emma, a female floating entity carrying a bag of gold.

She "blessed" many at Lakeland...through Bentley. There was a manifestation of real power released there. Was it of God. It was of Satan, but there were many, many, sincere Christians who received this anointing.

Andrew Strom has posted an article, with video, here on SI about it...He calls it "Kundalini", the Hindi word for this power, active for thousands of years, even before Christ. This is an example of "Demonization".

Not directly possessed, but infected. There are articles written on the Internet about many Christians receiving deliverance from demons, that fell for Bentley's ministry, and the Toronto blessing.

This is real...and it is evident to me, that these were real Christians, not unbelievers. Christians fall away....and that is in the Bible. The Lord speaks of doctrines of devils through the Apostle. When we surrender to God, no matter the cost, we get Him....when we surrender to the Devil, we also get him.

I know some who have fell away, and now are demonic. The Christian walk does not guarantee victory , or right of passage to Heaven, simply because we were born of God. This entails overcoming....and what do we overcome?

The World, our Satanic Natures, and the Devil himself.

How?

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. "

Amen. It is a war.

AtG & 777, I've tired of having words put into my mouth. I have tried to keep this topic in balance only - but instead you both have put forth that I don't believe in the ministry to the oppressed At All or that I'm "afraid".
Reading these replies here and on the other warfare thread have been all incredulous, that what I write is taken so far away from what my posts are saying.

I've felt nothing inside to answer that last post to that last thread but just about 30 min.s ago - before I had even planned to come online or here The LORD said - 'Now is the time to give part of your testimony.' I would have rather faced off with some of those I've met head-on with, that were literally frothing at the mouth - then to give my testimony on the internet but I have to just take this as from Him because of the awareness of the difference of when it's a command and when it's flesh speaking. I fear giving testimonies more than devils or any man or woman - for I know the heart is such that "motives" should always be in check when posting things of this nature.

'Somehow' - I knew the LORD from what I can recall was a very early age. He was very real to me as a small child. He would "talk to me" and I to Him and I knew where He was - In Heaven, seated at the Right Hand of The Father. It was as normal to talk to Him and have Him talk back. I just KNEW He was Real and I'd have to say that I was about 3 when this realization began.
As I grew, maybe at 10 yrs old - He partially appeared to me and spoke, but not audibly or without even opening His lips and said only one thing that I knew was the case - He said, "You know you're going the wrong way." and I just felt a sadness and said "Yes LORD" --- because I knew I was beginning to look for "love" from anywhere in this world rather than 'know' that He was more than able to satisfy any need for love that I was lacking - having lived in 3 homes by that age and was in my 4th home when this happened. It was in that 4th Home that I knew that He is desirous of relationship with His creation/humans.
He made Himself so real to me, even before this partial vision and one statement to me - that I walked out of the Catholic Church at that young age and refused to go back saying and knowing - "THIS is NOT GOD."
As time went on, the LORD would give me a word of something that would happen. My unsaved/partially Catholic family - especially my father just took it that he had a "psychic or esp enabled" daughter and there was no way to prove at that age that it wasn't THAT to him. He still is an evolutionist and 100% Science only believer and even in his Science magazines that he reads, such as "Discover", they have their 'scientific' reasons for the paranormal and actually are For those type experiences - giving all sorts of evolutionary or scientific reasons for "premonitions or esp, etc". I try to teach Dad of the difference between the gifts of GOD and GOD's desire for a 'two way' relationship with His Creation and explain to him the difference of the latent power of the soul and of the dark side - but to him, it's all the same thing.
Even while in the AF back in the very early 70's, they tested us for "psychic abilities" and Dad said that he knew that because, as he was in WWII they started doing this testing because he said the Russians were using those things and our military heads felt that we needed to tap into that psychic power as well.
I was never blessed to hear the Gospel of Forgiveness anywhere until I was 23 - Thank GOD! I was, at that time married to someone who told me that he had "asked Jesus into his life" before I married him. Even though I wasn't Gospel or Bible educated at all, as yet - I just knew of the Reality of Jesus in a personal way, so was pleased that he had asked "Jesus" into his life.
The man I had married who charmed me to pieces turned out to be severely demon possessed and would froth at the mouth while tearing up my Bible and was brutal and into every sin imaginable - but after I heard the Gospel message, one year after our marriage, it was like being shot out of a canon for me. I was freer than free and the canon affect was as if The LORD was saying, "OK, now that you fully understand that forgiveness was available - we need to Move Fast to make up for lost time" and He began to put me on a rush trip to learn as much about Him through His Word and to read as much as possible about demonology and the deeper things of Christ - a rushed crash course that's never really slowed down but is a blessing in ways hard to describe.
When things got Really Nuts with my husband, I had zero fear of him and tried very hard to get him to truly desire Salvation. Unfortunately, he wanted no part of GOD. Because of the adultery plus bi-sexualness and many other things, like drugs and more, I prayed and asked the LORD what to do and it was confirmed in many miraculous ways that an annulment was what He wanted for me and though I never asked the attorney for one - he told me himself that he'd have one for me in one week - and he did. That was after 3 yrs of marriage.
In the meantime - I had hooked up with beautiful Christians in Virginia Beach, where I had gotten saved. Now this is the hard part to go into as well, because there is no glory in self with this at all - because of the Reverence for GOD which is that fear of Him in a Biblical way.
One older Sister in particular, who was mature in the LORD, that I worked with on Base, took me under her care and brought me to Church and at one point I had to stay with her and her Mom & Dad. I was very newly saved and we would go Church and to all the special meetings in that area's other churches. They had a guest speaker at one of these churches and before he even got up to the platform, I turned to her and said, "He's not from GOD" and she'd just wait to hear him speak before reacting. GOD is So faithful, because the man indeed turned out to be a complete charlatan. He didn't preach a thing about GOD and took three offerings, pumping the people up with frantic music.
She got used to these type things happening after a while and my dreams, and other words and it set her back - never having seen a new born babe in Christ have these things happen, as my husband also saw and friends that I still have until this day. The books that The LORD immediately started me off with were David Wilkerson's, Wigglesworth, commentaries on the book of Acts, demonology teachings - some very bad and some very good and Biblically based books on the gifts of the Spirit - the difference between counterfeit gifts compared to the genuine, etc.. All I can say is that this has always been a very eventful life. My friends would laugh at me saying that because it's been unbelievably eventful for me and not for the faint hearted.
Mentioning 'faint hearted' - this is where sound Biblical teaching on demons comes in. The LORD allowed me to get a hold of some off-the-wall demonology books that scared the wits out of me and then turned it around to the Good, as it showed me what Many young Christians go through, when the teachings of men bring a lie against His Word on Anything.
My friends had to have very firm footing in Christ to stay by my side for all of these years. It's as if GOD wanted me to experience all there was in "the spiritual realm" - and like a machine gun, it was one adventure after another. All the gifts of His Spirit were experienced with Him gently adding one after another until I had to realize that it's not just 'the' gifts - but actually, as is taught, it is our being "as He was in the world" or His Disciples - they didn't just have a gift or two but could be used in any of the listed gifts at any time that GOD needed work done.
Having a burden for the street people and others, I went on to an AoG college back then - only to be told that I could marry again - well, I won't go into that debate with anyone - because I do believe Now, in retrospect, that GOD allowed that to teach me even the more of what the deepest of the deepest of the dark things of Satan are.
Working in the ministry, you meet many different types of people, with many types of "conditions". Some are saved - some not. So I had to deal with the demon possessed that would infiltrate the Church and intially led the women's ministry but later had the blessing of the young adults - in their 20's. This was in the early 80's. This was when I began to have this ministry of demon warfare from the things I had learned prior, to truly go into action.
I told the story about my other marriage once on this forum and do not feel free to share it again for good reasons.
But what I can say is - that unless a person allows GOD to crush self and get it out of the way, and even till the day that we see Him and learn that we must live Holy as onto the LORD and 'depend on HIS Mind' and not our own - we will have no idea who we are talking to or dealing with. GOD gives the wisdom and knowledge to see who we are talking to and know their spiritual condition, as Nee said in one of his books. I depend on that for dear life because without that - I'd have no idea what direction our relationship should go in or what their needs were and it wouldn't be a very spiritual way to walk in the least, unless GOD in His mercy and Grace, show us the hidden things. People would bring me to homes of some powerful people, and I'd have to sadly say - their house is filled with demons as they are as well - but they enjoyed their delusion and powers. Yes, sometimes the LORD would choose to allow me to see them - in order to save time, as a visual is much faster than anything else and normally also, they'd show in a person's eyes. Eyes do speak and are a lamp to their spirit - and with some people GOD chooses to use that means of revealing things, sometimes. Other times it's just a word like, discerning of spirits. Other times He would have a person suddenly "act out" when I came before them and these were folks that no one knew that they weren't Christians at all. It's not me that does anything at all. I trust GOD with all of my heart and know that without Him - I'd be in some sort of deceptive new-agey thing or just sitting in a bar somewhere. Only GOD knows that I need to just sit at His feet and learn until the day I see Him - and never put confidence in this flesh, no matter how incredible the experiences I've had over these 35 yrs of excitment are. Though excitement may be an understatement but all we can do is Glorify our Risen and Much Alive Saviour for keeping us alive for this long.
Sometimes we're tempted to say "I've seen it all" ... but we know deep inside that we haven't yet - as the end of the last days approach us - when demon manifestations will be greater than anything this world has ever seen. And despite all that I've seen in spiritual manifestations from the dark side and spending a year in fasting back in the 90's with visions of what's to come - I have No Fear because HE has proven Himself through it all.

We Need to know WHO lives within us and not ever go off into unScriptural paths that go beyond what is written.
With all the supernatural experiences I've had since very young, I can't stress it enough - how we need to stay within the perimeters of His Word Alone because there "is" a Very fine line between deception and reality - and why Jesus warned repeatedly "Watch, that ye be not deceived".
The counterfeit and the true are only Spiritually discerned by one who has their feet on the ground but their mind in Heavenly places with Christ, standing soley on His Pure Word.

I could give tons of 'stories' - all the manifestations that I saw in my home with first that husband, and then in Churches, in other people's homes and on the streets but I also know where to draw the line between revealing truths and 'glorifying' the devil(s) with any who may enjoy 'ghost stories'. Those are not wise to be shared in a mixed group - of a truth.
As I've said from the early part of the other thread on 'warfare' - that some have somehow missed - I was and am still in the ministry of deliverance, as every Christian should be. No one should think to go into Any ministry without a good 'Biblical' handle on demonolgy and the Fact that we need not fear ANYTHING - and that's my bottomline for all that I've posted on both of these threads and others and mostly for the fact that we're heading into unprecedented times. Amen and praying for all here and with others who feel this burden for our last-days companion travelers and the unsaved that we pray to reach .

There are very reputable teachers and preachers posted in the Text or Audio sections of this forum that we could be looking at.

For one - who dealt with the most of drug addicts and people off the streets in one of our nation's most sinful cities?

How much did he preach on casting out demons?

How about Elisabeth Elliot, who went to the same tribe, with her young daughter, after they had killed her husband.
How much did she speak about demons?

How about Hudson Taylor?

We could go on and on with this list but looking at the list given in this thread - one should see who we're being given as examples.... JPL who's writings needed to be tamed down quite a bit - Rebecca Brown, who Deadn was right about and anyone could do a Search on her -- then James Robinson from TBN who was on with Glen Beck last year, talking to a Mormon as if he were a model of Christianity and you could do a Search using the words "James Robison - Sun Sun Myung Moon CNP".
I know the man from the 80's when I thought he was alright - for a while.

Can't we find better examples of people who have worked with the worst of them - such as Missionaries and the such from who's writings we're familiar with.

If all of the above are what we're using to learn demonology - we're not doing so well here.

I have a question for Tom. Why would you put that this 14 yr old girl was "a Christian" in your subtitle if what you smelled etc was in her?

When I posted above - I hadn't the time to read the posts previous to it.

Why would it be that questionable persons are being promoted to teach us about Demonology but if someone asks for straight Scripture Only, they are given all sorts of strange off the cuff or wall replies with accusations attached?

Think about that.

There are multiple Pastors who are worth listening to, who live in countries where voodoo and witchcraft and even canabalism is practiced. Depending on their demonology - they either make it there and usually die there with a fine record or their demonology is off and they do not leave a fine legacy behind that we can read of.

On SI - we have the Classics - other than JPL - can't anyone find a good teaching from someone who's dealt with city dwellers or street ministy or missionary work who has a non-spooked True testimony of Victory?

eta: fixed spelling on J.R.

**UPDATE**

JiG,

Thank you for your testimony and my apologies if I misconstrued anything you said.

I take it that you think Jim Logan is not "reputable". SermonIndex posted his audio series on Spiritual Warfare which started this whole thing. I won't put words in your mouth, so I am asking you, IS JIM LOGAN REPUTABLE in your book?

By the way, it is James Robison, not Robinson. James Robison was a national evangelist long before TBN and it is not really charitable what you say about him. His testimony was not that he was not saved, but that it felt like he had a "Claw on his head of lust" that he could not get rid of. He even confided this to his wife and wanted to die rather than disgrace Christ. Moving on.

Is Exodus International reputable? They have probably ministered to thousands of homosexuals. Are you now the one that says who is or who is not reputable? Are you reputable? Get my point? Can we stop attacking people (messengers) and stick with the message/topic.

Do you think Merrill Unger is reputable? What do you look for in a man or women that determines if they are reputable? Seems subjective to me. Let's see what Merrill has to say.

The late Dr. Merrill F. Unger earned his A.B. and Ph.D degrees at John's Hopkins University, and his Th.M and Th.D degrees at Dallas Theological Seminary. In 1947, after several pastorates, he taught for a year at Gordon College. For the next 19 years, until 1967--at which time he became professor emeritus--Dr. Unger was professor of OT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS).

Highly qualified in all respects, he authored some 40 books, many of which have long been standard texts in our Christian colleges and seminaries, as well as in all doctrinally sound pastoral libraries.

Dr. Merrill Unger wrote the following:
Unger's Bible Dictionary
Unger's Bible Handbook
Unger's Commentary on the Old Testament
Archaeology and the Old Testament
Archaeology and the New Testament
New Testament Teaching on Tongues: A Biblical and Historical Survey (1971)
Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit, (Moody Press)
Demons in the World Today, (Tyndale House Publishers), 1971
What Demons Can Do to Saints

and is quoted in "Demons in the World Today" as saying:

"They [missionaries] claim to have witnessed cases of repossession among converts of ancient idolatrous cultures, such as in China and India, and also among aboriginal peoples and primitive civilizations, who live in servile fear and abject bondage to Satan and demons. The claims of these missionaries appear valid (p. 117)."

Unger goes to say in "What Demons Can Do to Saints".

"For many years the late chancellor of Wheaton College, Dr. V. Raymond Edman, taught that a Christian under certain circumstances could be invaded by demon powers. His first-hand experience with crude demonism, as a result of missionary labors in Ecuador in his earlier years, gave Dr. Edman an understanding of the subject of demonism not possessed by purely theoretical Bible interpreters."

And another quote by Unger who was a Pastor for 40 years:

"Believers can be hindered, bound, and oppressed by Satan and even indwelt by one or more demons, who may derange the mind and afflict the body...."

Again...

"One woman, who excelled in the gift of intercessory prayer, was nevertheless constantly the center of a disturbance because of lack of tact and wisdom, due apparently to some alien spirit indwelling her."

Another quote:

"The writer remembers well the occasion of a prayer meeting when this woman was delivered from this evil spirit, as she and a group of us were on our knees in intercession. All of a sudden, as she quietly prayed, the demon in her gave an unearthly yell that could be heard for a block and came out of her, frightening the group almost out of their wits. After falling into an unconscious state for a minute or two, the woman regained consciousness and rose to her feet, joyfully confident that she had been set free from an evil power (Demons in the World Today, pp. 185,186)."

Dr. Robert Lightner, of Dallas faculty, gave the book an affirmative review in the July-September 1978 issue of Bibliotheca Sacra:

"WHAT DEMONS CAN DO TO SAINTS" -- "This is a good book and deserves a wide readership, even among those who do not believe demons can take up residence in the same dwelling place with the Holy Spirit."

More from Unger:

"Clinical evidence abounds that a Christian can be demon-possessed as a carry-over from preconversion days, or can fall under Satan's power after conversion and become progressively demonized, even seriously. If such a person blatantly lives in scandalous sin, subscribes to and embraces heresy, engages in occultism, or gives himself to rebellion and lawlessness against God's Word and will, he may expect a demon invasion in his life (P. 137)."

As we have stated, we know of no passage in the Bible that says, in so many words, that "a Christian can be demon possessed". But, likewise there is NO VERSE that conclusively says one can't. However, there is a passage or two that strongly suggests the possibility of possession and they deserve examination. There are also many passages in the OT the produce a lot of typology regarding "enemies in the land that need to be dealt with".

In 2 Cor 11:3-4 Paul makes a rather revealing statement about Christians and other spirits, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

By saying, "if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have NOT received" Paul is indicating that a Christian who already has the Holy Spirit CAN receive another spirit besides! Some may argue Paul is speaking to lost people in the Corinthian church, but that doesn't hold up. First, Paul is concerned their minds have been corrupted by Satan (through a false teacher) from the simplicity of receiving and resting in Christ for salvation. He said in verse 2 he was "jealous over [them] with a godly jealously: for I have espoused you to one husband..." that is, Christ.

PAUL WOULDN'T ESPOUSE LOST PEOPLE TO CHRIST. Furthermore, he says they could receive "ANOTHER spirit" which they did not receive previously (when he was with them). The Spirit they received when he presented them the gospel was the Holy Spirit! He also said they could receive another (false) gospel which they "have not [previously] accepted." This indicates they accepted the true gospel while Paul was with them because the "another gospel" was not preached by him. I know this passage is somewhat confusing, but read it carefully with prayer and the Lord will help us understand.

In light of the above one could ask, "If a Christian could be possessed, is the possession as extensive as that of a possessed lost person?" Here we must answer "yes and no." If it is true a Christian can be possessed he cannot be completely possessed because there is a part of every believer (the new nature) that is of God and is incorruptible;

I quoted Exodus International before and they said:

This is what they say, and this is probably more accurate to what Jessie says, also.

"in order to clarify that even though Christians truly can have demons, "they cannot be demon-possessed nor be "owned/possessed" by them since their ownership is already in Christ. Demons in a Christian's life can be no more than "tenants" or invaders that must be confronted and cast out."

This squares with the Old Testament teaching on warfare. Even as the Children of God came into possess Canaan, there were "tenants/invaders/inhabitants" in the land that had to be driven out. In fact God commanded it.

Satan can't touch the incorruptible nature of a Believer where his spirit has been joined to the Holy Spirit. If a believer is possessed, he is only possessed in his old, Adamic nature. This is unlike the lost man who only has the old nature; therefore, if he is possessed, he is completely possessed. But, on the other hand, to the Christian who is possessed (if possible), the possession would have the same effect as it would to a lost person. The person's BODY and MIND would be subject to a devil.

One may ask, here, and it is a reasonable question, "Why would the Lord allow one of His children to become possessed since He indwells him and has redeemed him?" But let's not stop with just this question. Why would the Lord allow a blood-bought believer to fall in love with the world and live after the flesh after he gets saved? Why would He allow them to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, deceive, cause trouble with other believers, ruin his testimony, malign God's name, be vain, proud, arrogant, envious, jealous, and a dozen other sins and vices?

The simple answer is God does not override or nullify man's free will.

If a man has no free will he is little more than a robot. God wants people to choose to be saved by Him (no Hyper-Calvinism here) and also choose to live for Him once saved. If a believer insists in following his own will and ignores God's will for him, then the Lord will chastise him one way or another (sometimes the results of self-will and living after the flesh bring their own chastisement).

And if a believer by dabbling in the occult or otherwise moving toward Satan's domain ends up getting oppressed or even possessed by devils, then the believer has no one to blame but himself.

God admonishes, warns, and instructs His children in His word, but any who fail to heed His word usually suffer the consequences for their actions. There are many professing Christians in prisons and hospitals today for that very reason.

Respectfully,

A777

I find that many people use the O.T. when it's convenient to their beliefs of choice.

Mr. Unger and others pull O.T. verses and I've noticed on this thread and the other that posters do as well.

That's your perogative and theirs but I don't see that as righty dividing the WORD of GOD.

It's definitely a choice to pull whichever O.T. verses anyone wants, to justify anything under the sun. Very convenient practice. Keep some O.T. and throw out the rest.

I truly don't care how many degrees people have or how many charities they give to because there are those in the false religions that have and do the same - to me - it's how do they treat His New Testament that He wrote by spilling His blood to have written.

I don't care about degrees at all. I am just trying to figure out who is reputable to you. From what I am getting from you is that if you disagree with someone on this subject, they aren't reputable.

I am just glad that none of us are the authority on this subject and I will continue to remain open. We are all looking for light and understanding from the Lord why some of our brothers and sisters are so demonized.

I did provide a NT verse, also.

A777

Why do you and others have problems just reading the New Testament and getting your beliefs from it alone?

Not just one verse here and there but intensive study.
You'd have to read from Matthew to the Revelation and truly Study and cross-reference and do word-studies to prove Any doctrine - but folks don't go that route much anymore. They'd rather pull a verse and talk away or quote articles.

How do we prove whether a doctrine is Sound or not?

Paul is talking to Christians here.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

We know that Paul is talking about a spirit and not a thought or mindset, because he implies that they received the Holy Spirit but could receive ANOTHER (different) spirit.

Pretty straight forward to me. Christians can receive another spirit other than the Holy Spirit.

A777

I commend your post about pulling our doctrine from the New Testament and it alone. This is the covenant that we are under and indeed Jesus did spill his blood for every page of the New Testament. I read in Colossians that only in Jesus are found all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Also the reality is found in him. The exhortation of Paul is let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. Personally I read and listen to the NT several times a year and love it ever more. Even so love the Author even more. Letting you know your love for the New Testament touched my heart and resonated in my spirit.

"I have a question for Tom. Why would you put that this 14 yr old girl was "a Christian" in your subtitle if what you smelled etc was in her?"..JesusIsGod

[.The manifestation of the demons often have an odor, and and "they " were blaspheming from her also.....She was probably not born again...but may have been a believer. It seems there were other instances of children demonized in the New Testament...BT]

"Why would it be that questionable persons are being promoted to teach us about Demonology but if someone asks for straight Scripture Only, they are given all sorts of strange off the cuff or wall replies with accusations attached?"

"There are multiple Pastors who are worth listening to, who live in countries where voodoo and witchcraft and even canabalism is practiced. Depending on their demonology - they either make it there and usually die there with a fine record or their demonology is off and they do not leave a fine legacy behind that we can read of"...Jesus Is God..]

It is in the eye of the beholder WHO is questionable or not. Most of us would be considered questionable by another...myself, or even You would be by someone. JPL has much insight, and has ministered to many..[ Not me, obviously..but she was a woman of faith..]

This idea we are talking about IS about Christian's having demons indwelling, or influencing them, NOT about demonology or demons in the Satanic Cultures of the World...[..Africa, India, Etc.]

As far as scripture is concerned, the main thrust of them is historical, and proclaimed by Jesus Himself..IE: "You shall have power to cast out devils, and do so!"....and the historical record of Jesus, the Gadarene, and many, many others in whom demons were cast out.

When the Apostles returned from one of their missions that Jesus sent them out on, they proclaimed; "Even the devils are subject to us!"...and Jesus said; in effect, "Rejoice not for this, but that your saved!"

I do not think that anyone can teach you about "demonology" or HOW to cast out demons...in Christians, or so called believers, or the unsaved. I think the way you will really learn about it, is to begin ministry. Pray for the sick, and tell others about Jesus, and His redemption.

When you begin this with any kind of power, I promise you that the evil spirits will come to you, and sooner or later, you will find someone possessed. Then, you might discover that all you can do is pray...and then the promise will become real to you...that we have power over all of the enemies of the Lord, or, it's just a theory.

Hi 777. The verse you gave 2 Corth 11:4 - could easily remind us in these days of Todd Bentley's meetings with his flying light balls that he claimed were angels, and the whole "spirit" that was presented at his Show in Lakeland.

Yep, it's up to folks to "choose" what they'll believe. If they want more than what is written - they go after a different gospel, another spirit, the works. Only GOD knows their heart enough to know when it's time for them to be "turned over to their delusions" and "send them the strong delusion so that they believe a lie" and when they become "reprobate" unable to repent. Only GOD knows!

About the Context: Just because these chpts get to me, deeply.
That verse and chpt was mentioned on the other thread as well .... it's "context" is very sad to me. I posted on that other thread that Paul was Forced to defend himself for Four Chpts - from 2 Corth 10 through 13 because of false apostles who were putting him down and I guess you could even see that he was being Mocked for being "weak, humble and meek in his presence - using the word "base" -- so the poor man, who is my/our hero of the faith had to defend himself for Four Chpts. To me, that is the most grievious thing I've read in the N.T. only topped by the Pharisees reaction to Jesus raising Lazarus and the crowds yelling "Crucify Him".
That Paul would ever have to defend himself, after all that he was 'in' Christ, just sickens me and I believe he should have earned enough of our respect - that we'd read 2 Corth 10 - 13. Amen!
Yes, Paul is our great example of what to do with demons - only after Jesus Himself.
Jesus and Paul - the experts. :)

GOD Bless!

Amem martyr - We will never go beyond what is written. Amen!

JiG,

You are saying that if a Christian receives "another spirit" as Paul was saying, that there is no deliverance for them? You are stating unequivocally that 2 Cor 11:4 means that they have been given over to a reprobate mind and UNABLE to repent or seek deliverance from this spirit?

I don't read that. It seems you are reading much more into this scripture than is being presented. I don't see any warnings or mention from Paul that they will become reprobate. And this does not bear out in practical experience for many Christians, whether you agree with them or not.

Christians can find repentance and be delivered from "another spirit".

We know that the Galatians received another gospel and another spirit (spirit of legalism), because they were bewitched. This "bewitching" is not just a change of mind but a spiritual delusion brought on by a seducing spirit and a doctrinal demon. Paul pleaded with them to repent.

Paul did not tell the Galatians that they were reprobate, did he? Or that they could not find repentance? If he did, please show me. They needed repentance and deliverance from their "bewitching". Paul was trying to convince them by his exposition of the Old Testament (Abraham, Sarah, Hagar) that they had left Christ. He was basically pleading with them on the ground of Christ and His cross.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM HIM that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

A777

Hi Tom.
What "theory" is that in your title?

Well, I'm Happy to see you reconsidered your post where you called this girl a "Christian". Thank you for that clarification.

The way you posted this post title "theory", it's difficult to see who's comments are who's except that I can, because I know what I've said. :)

Most of what you covered, we discussed on that other thread, so I'm looking at your post now.

OK - quote Tom: "It is in the eye of the beholder WHO is questionable or not."

Well, yes and no. Our means of testing a teaching is what we talked about above - Using the New Testament Only to test all teachings/teachers. Thank GOD HE made that the Only test for Sound Doctrine - by leaving us an Instruction Manuel so we don't wind up off a cliff somewhere or stagger around in the dark like a bunch of blind people, IF we'll Keep to The Book.

Yes, I know what Jesus said about our authority to cast out demons. Posted such in the other thread as well as this one.

Now, about the man we nick-named "Legion" for brevity -
It was misunderstood on that other thread - when I asked, "WHO" came to "worship" Jesus when He landed there and this poor crazed man came TO him ------ It was not the man who came with the "worship" --- read the text/the context .... and know that Jesus was Led of the Spirit to go to the Gaderene because he Knew what HE had to do there - just as HE knew HE could wait to go to Lazarus to raise him from the dead.
The demons in this man came after HIM, scared half to death that He would send them to the pit ....... but Jesus know what was WAY down deep in the man himself - and what the condition of his heart would be after the demons were expelled. It's important to see 'who' came to Jesus to 'worship' because that is a GLORY TO GOD portion of Scripture - Proving Jesus is GOD and that EVERY KNEE shall bow and Every Tongue confess that He is LORD.

Quote of yours: "I do not think that anyone can teach you about "demonology" or HOW to cast out demons...in Christians, or so called believers, or the unsaved. I think the way you will really learn about it, is to begin ministry.""

Well, I'm glad you said "I think" there because this is the most important part. Very much so.
WE MUST be led of His Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives the "discerning of spirits or just Discernment", the "gifts", the "what to pray" and any "actions to take" or else - no one will be helped - only further hurt and that's my BIG concern with these threads and tried to express this through-out.
IF we are not fully dependent on HIS Spirit Alone and His WORD - we'll be operating in the flesh, human reasoning or human intellect and if you don't think that what happened to the Sceva brothers can happen to a 'christian' operating in pride or self - then we need to go back and read more.
I've heard of "very nice pastors" getting thrown across the sanctuary because they didn't depend on the Holy Spirit to LEAD.
IF we aren't fully led of His Spirit even in the little day to day things - then we sure won't be when the larger things come. This is a learning to walk in His Spirit - Knowing His Voice apart from all other voices, on a minute by minute basis and not just when we're around people - if you know what I mean there. True ministry comes from a life-style in public and in private and how much we lean on HIM and not lean on ourselves or our own thinking/intellect/feelings/etc.

This is why I kept saying in that other thread that "this one doctrine - demonology", needs the most caution because we can do irreparable damage to a person if we are not HEARING FROM GOD in each individual case. People are precious to Him and we had better be SURER that Sure that we know what we're "pronouncing" over them when counseling or saying to them that it's a "demon".

I can say that enough. I've seen enough mishandling and read enough about the horrendous after affects of these "demon chasers or blamers" to wish we had RED font here and Bold as well to use in these "CAUTIONS".

I have testified enough times now, how much a very active part of my whole life was learning and living with and working with demons/demonology .... that I need "no man to teach me" --- and I say that with confidence in HIS WORD and the leading of His Spirit alone. No confidence in the flesh At All, as I gave in my nutshell testimony on this thread.

"the power" as you've mentioned in your last paragraph - is something that Some people operate in - but have seen far too many that believe in a power coming from them - but it isn't HIS.
That too has been my major concern 'for' them - because again --- we're entering the last days and I needn't repeat what will happen in the last days with counterfeit signs & wonders and the people who take the mark Will Be worshipping Satan himself {the dragon who gives power to the beast} so they will be Full-Blown "Possessed" and will be 'after us'. So this is not some sort of church service thing we're looking at, not far down the road - but The Real Thing as it is written in the Revelation.

Time to really start learning what it Truly means to be Totally dependent - as a little helpless child - on the Voice of The Shepherd and leading and help of HIS Spirit of Truth.

Don't mean to keep repeating the same things over and over - as all this I had to also post on that other thread last week - but it's That important that we lean not to our own understanding and truly get into the Word and take each verse within it's Full Context.
The days ahead are "written" and we need to get into what those words are saying if we ever think for a moment that we ourselves are "into demonology".

GOD Bless His 'Children' - Amen!

777 - regarding this last post of yours - You brought forth 2 Corth 11:4 as a "proof-text" for "demons entering a person" - that's how you presented it "receive" being the key word in that verse ---- and you gave that one verse after I posted that we Must learn demonology by Studying His "Complete" NT.

Now - you've got a whole new way of twisting the verse that you gave and my answer.

This was the verse that you gave as "sufficient enough proof for you doctrinal beliefs on demonology" - you gave this one verse only - and now all I can do is recommend you read my reply again because you are reframing 'both' of our posts from the top of this page.

Thanks.
Thank you!

ETA - Thanks White_Stone... we posted at the same time within a few seconds. GOD Bless your eyes!

JiG,

Here is what you said:

"Yep, it's up to folks to "choose" what they'll believe. If they want more than what is written - they go after a different gospel, another spirit, the works. Only GOD knows their heart enough to know when it's time for them to be "turned over to their delusions" and "send them the strong delusion so that they believe a lie" and when they become "reprobate" unable to repent. Only GOD knows!"

It is a little confusing and that is why I am asking you to clarify what you said.

Are you saying that when a Christian "receives another spirit" (using Paul's terms) that there is no room for repentance or deliverance from that spirit?

Simple question: Can you answer it?

By the way, that is not my "proof text", just another scripture I would like you to comment on and clarify what you mean.

Thanks,
A777

Jesus-is-GOD's post to 777:

Why do you and others have problems just reading the New Testament and getting your beliefs from it alone?

Not just one verse here and there but intensive study.
You'd have to read from Matthew to the Revelation and truly Study and cross-reference and do word-studies to prove Any doctrine - but folks don't go that route much anymore. They'd rather pull a verse and talk away or quote articles.

How do we prove whether a doctrine is Sound or not?

777 Replied with -

Paul is talking to Christians here.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

We know that Paul is talking about a spirit and not a thought or mindset, because he implies that they received the Holy Spirit but could receive ANOTHER (different) spirit.

Pretty straight forward to me. Christians can receive another spirit other than the Holy Spirit.

A777

A777 - please read these two again and what White_Stone quoted.

Thank you!

JiG,

What I get, is that you are saying that Christians can receive another spirit and it is up to God when to turn them over to reprobation.

But my question to you is, can they repent and be delivered and avoid reprobation? Yes or no?

If I am wrong about what I am interpreting from what you are saying, please give me some clarification.

But, as I said, it seems you are adding to 2 Cor 11.

Also, I have no problem reading the NT and getting my beliefs from it.

Thanks,
A777

It depends. So - once again - only GOD knows!

In your post you said that 'they can receive 'another spirit' other than the Holy Spirit' ... and you were talking about "Christians".

The HOLY Spirit will not co-habit with "Another spirit" - so - those who "received" [in your interpretation of that word] - 'another spirit', other than the HOLY Spirit - what would be there 'spiritual state' at that point in time?

Again, only GOD knows if they are candidates for being set free "again" .... and The WORD of GOD answers this question as well... looking at that word "again".

Only GOD knows - and Only GOD wrote it ALL in His N.T..

Col. 2:15--And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Rom.16:20--And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Lk. 10:19--I have given you authority to ttample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy, nothing will harm you.

James 5:7--Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

1 Jn.4:4--the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world

Any thoughts???.

Understand that I have a truly hard time doing posts with the word "I" in it, so I've held back a lot. But on the other thread, I said that I would define "sociopaths".

This is a "pandemic" phenomena in our days, as we've already entered the great falling away from "truth" and not Just Biblical Truth --- but also -- "Truth in the Inward parts" -- being 100% truthful with ourselves and with GOD and others. In plain language - Not Lying.

Here is the post on sociopaths - but I'll post more about this and this thread later on. I'm trying to do two things at once presently. Thanks!

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38666&forum=45&3

Hello, Jesus-is-GOD,

I'm catching up with this thread, and thinking about how to reply. I know you're busy, but if you pop back and see this post, please would you answer just this, first, as you've said it in both this and the Warfare thread more than once.

The HOLY Spirit will not co-habit with "Another spirit"

Many thanks.

We've discussed "possession" at length in three threads now.

ETA: correction from two threads to three threads.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Principle may be drawn from 2.Cor.6:14-18 about the Holy Spirit not cohabing with a demonic spirit.

JiG,

The Apostles only had the OT. After baptism in the Holy Spirit it came alive to them.

How could Israel have enemies in their land when they had the Ark of the Covenant in the land, too. The very presence of God? I will tell you why. Because of Sin and Rebellion. That is Bible, JiG. It is the same correlation for Christians otherwise what is the point of spiritual warfare in the OT to us today? Just nice stories?

Also, where do you get that the Holy Spirit cannot inhabit a person that has another spirit? Like AtG said, Scripture please.

The Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is joined to our spirit

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Nothing about the body in 1 Cor 6:17

We know from Mark 5 and Mark 9 that demons look for bodies and could never be joined to our spirit. They will oppress your spirit when they are "in the land".

Let's break down Mark 5 and Mark 9.

Mark 5:1-20 is the definitive passage on demon possession and its effects in the Bible. Some of the details about demons the Bible reveals in this passage are:

1. Devils want to be near dead human bodies or tombs (vs. 2, 3, 5).
2. They can cause unusual strength (vs. 3-4).
3. They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion (vs. 4).
4. They cause excessive crying (vs. 5).
5. They cause sadistic and masochistic behavior (vs. 5).
6. They have an affinity for heights (vs. 5).
7. They recognize Christ as "the Son of God" and appeal to Him (vs. 6-7).
8. They know they deserve torment and dread it (vs. 6-7).
9. They have names (vs. 9).
10. More than one can possess the same body (vs. 9).
11. They desire to stay in the same geographical region or "country" (vs. 10).
12. They would rather indwell an animal body than none at all (vs. 12).
13. They can cause animals to kill themselves (vs. 13).
14. They desire to be in a body when it dies (vs. 13).
15. They have a desire for water (vs. 13).

Mark 9:17-29 gives us even more details about devils:
16. They can cause dumbness and deafness (vs. 17, 25).
17. They cause rabid animal like behavior (vs. 18).
18. They can indwell from childhood (vs. 21).
19. They cause suicidal behavior (vs. 22).
20. They resist leaving a body and violently "rent" it while leaving (vs. 26).
21. There are different kinds of devils. Some have more power than others (vs. 29).
22. Some can only be removed by prayer and fasting of believer (vs. 29).

My point is, when we see Christians manifesting some of the same things that we see in Mark 5 and Mark 9, it is only spiritual to think that something a little more than the flesh is at work here.

I think Mark 9:29 is a powerful verse and it is no coincidence that in modern new age bibles this verse no longer has FASTING in it. Fasting is very important when ministering to people in bondage.

Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and FASTING.

Blessings,
A777

Hi martyr, that is talking about not being yoked with unbelievers because there is no fellowship with darkness.

Martyr, why did Paul want to deliver that one Christian's flesh to Satan to be destroyed so that his spirit could be saved?

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If it was just because he was in sin and would not repent, why didn't Paul do this to everyone that was in sin and did not repent?

A777

Hi JiG,

Sorry for so many posts, I should have put everything in one post, but I wanted to answer martyr and this post just deals with something pretty far back about sickness.

I mentioned how the powers of darkness can cause sickness and you came back that now I was saying ALL sickness is from the Devil. But, I did not say that. We know from the NT that some sickness is from Satan.

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

So, this goes with all the manifestations in Mark 5 and Mark 9.

The question is, is it not a good thing to seek the Lord for light and discernment through prayer and fasting about a Believer's plight? We don't have the knowledge to make snap judgments by looking on the external, do we.

We need to hear from the Lord whether the source of an ailment is natural or from Satan. The Word says, "He loosed her". Then later, He confirms that she had been bound by Satan.

I don't believe all sickness is from Satan. We know Job's sickness was and we have other examples in the Word. But no, I don't believe all sickness is. However, we need to hear from the Lord, because only HE can tell us what the source is.

A777

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

I see the Bible verses you brought to attention. Do you present them as the answer to my question at the end of p7?

We've discussed "possession" at length

The HOLY Spirit will not co-habit with "Another spirit".

This is a whole post from p5 (last)

I find that many people use the O.T. when it's convenient to their beliefs of choice.

Mr. Unger and others pull O.T. verses and I've noticed on this thread and the other that posters do as well.

That's your perogative and theirs but I don't see that as righty dividing the WORD of GOD.

It's definitely a choice to pull whichever O.T. verses anyone wants, to justify anything under the sun. Very convenient practice. Keep some O.T. and throw out the rest.

I truly don't care how many degrees people have or how many charities they give to because there are those in the false religions that have and do the same - to me - it's how do they treat His New Testament that He wrote by spilling His blood to have written.

Why do you and others have problems just reading the New Testament and getting your beliefs from it alone?

How do we prove whether a doctrine is Sound or not?

I have read [edit] in the past] your 'scripture explains scripture' statements, and how important the WHOLE counsel of God is, such that I'm honestly surprised at the appearance of any disdain for the Old Testament such as seem to be in your comments above.

We have as much right to include what the Lord reveals in the the Old Testament, as in the New, in our search for all truth. Anyway, it's the Holy Spirit that reveals the truth in the Old Testament, just as in the New.

A777 said (p5, after quotes from Unger)

Satan can't touch the incorruptible nature of a Believer where his spirit has been joined to the Holy Spirit. If a believer is possessed, he is only possessed in his old, Adamic nature. This is unlike the lost man who only has the old nature; therefore, if he is possessed, he is completely possessed. But, on the other hand, to the Christian who is possessed (if possible), the possession would have the same effect as it would to a lost person. The person's BODY and MIND would be subject to a devil.

Ephesians 2:1 - 3
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.'

As far as I can see from the Greek, the quickening happened WHILE we were dead. If we had to be at some half-way house of partly delivered from death (or demons) BEFORE He would give us life (the Holy Spirit), then Paul missed that out.

I will put other thoughts in another post.

"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers."...wikipedia

It is very obvious here that dialogue has been turned into dispute here, with unbending attitudes that cannot be taught. It's kind of like "Once saved always saved" folks dialoguing with those who believe we can fall away, and lose our salvation, or those cemented into the Pre-Tribulation rapture, discussing the scripture with Post trib. believers.

It just goes around and around and around.

Timothy 2:23-25 (King James Version)

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Titus 3:9
9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

This seems to have descended into the "strife" realm and the "contentions" realm. It's too bad really, because it is a great subject to consider.

I have seen professing Spirit filled Christians delivered from obvious demonic powers;..and subsequently filled again with glorious Holy Spirit Presence, but stating so would be impossible to prove, so why testify?....To be right in my own eyes?

Also, the line of thinking has become so complicated and minute, that I'm not sure what the point is, except it seems some people are a bit angry. Why not try accepting that some Christians may not believe like you, make your point, and move on in peace?

Let others express their ideas...disagree if necessary, and let it lie. Do all things to edify.

These are my other thoughts. They were brought about by considering the implications of this couple of sentences from your testimony on p5 (Jesus-is-GOD).

Other times He would have a person suddenly "act out" when I came before them and these were folks that no one knew that they weren't Christians at all. It's not me that does anything at all.

Case closed.

I am not disputing the gifts God has given you, but I most certainly dispute the conclusions you've come to regarding how God does or doesn't work in a life.

While you dispute other people's experiences freely - reducing their testimony to a cinder with a stream of dismissive comments based on what's NOT said in a third of the Bible - is it perhaps true that you have inadvertently based this exclusively New Testament theology on your own experience of not knowingly having needed deliverance from a demon before you were born again?

Brothertom, I hear you.

Although my last post may sound angry, I'm more vexed for the saints who need deliverance.

I should have thanked you for acknowledging my post yesterday, and for the things you've testified on this side of the discussion. I recognise the scenario you described, sadly.

Jesus-is-GOD, please don't be offended by my irritation. No doubt you have good reason for the views you hold, just as I do mine. May we grow in grace and understanding - all of us.

AtG - just two things - Yes, we did cover "possession" of Christians and you even posted that you saw that was not possible.

Two - I never said in this little quote that the people who would act-out could not be delivered.

That closes this topic for me. I gave my beliefs on three threads now. I've gone beyond what is written for a reason with answering this many times.

Because there are Christians who are not right with GOD Himself that are preaching about demons to whomever will read their beliefs and those beliefs are not in line with the New Testament.

GOD decides who is "given over" or "reprobate" as I said earlier in reply to 777.

The two main things that I see in these threads is the giving to Satan much more power than GOD's Word speaks and that our own choices toward sin and our behavior are being blamed on demons. No where in the entire New Testament is our sin blamed on 'demons' and no where in the New Testament will you find Christians "demon possessed".

There would be much more victory in people's lives if they learned more of their own "self" life and how to die to that, than to begin to be given an over-emphasis on demons.

I gave those passages to open a door to another discussion --- WHY did HE say "I never knew you" ?

That's an important question.

1Jn 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,

and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Is this true?

May the Lord give us more light and understanding in helping our brothers and sisters who love the Lord and His cross but are suffering various troubles and don't know how to "possess the land".

Lord, move your Church out of passivity and a defeated attitude in the face of the enemy and show us how to Rise Up and Rule in the Midst of our Enemies.

The God of this world has established his strongholds and authorities in the land and I believe Lord that you are telling us to day, "See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land..."

Lord we are passive, the enemy remains in the land and your people suffer. It is not your will O Lord that your people suffer from the oppression of the enemy. Lord you want us to be a victorious people, a strong people, that can rule in circumstances rather than being ruled by circumstances, a people that can determine the will of God and take direction rather than being directed by a turn of events. Lord, you want a people that will magnify Your Name and you want a people that have made you their Strong Tower, their Refuge, their Shield, their Covering and their Conqueror.

You gave the land of Canaan to the Israelites. The giving was your part, O Lord, but the taking was Israel's part. The land was their's but they had to possess it.

Lord what you have given us is not automatically ours and we know that the land will not be possessed without a battle.

O Lord, deliver us from our passivity and deception and bring freedom to your Church so that they may possess the land.

Amen!

A777

Yes, bowmyknees, Praise God that It is Finished.

But no one would deny that there are battles to fight and victories to win and ground that must be taken back from the enemy, experientially. And and any deliverance that He has given us must be maintained, also.

The Lord tells us that there are strongholds to pull down and He has given us weapons (He is the weapon).

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

1Tim 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

Without the Lord we would have no hope of taking back ground that the enemy has stolen from us through sin and rebellion.

There are many victories awaiting the one that makes the Lord their Refuge and Strong Tower. He is our Confidence.

Blessings,
A777

A777 Said:
"Lord what you have given us is not automatically ours and we know that the land will not be possessed without a battle."

Amen A777. It cannot be automatic....once saved always saved...otherwise, how could one fall away? It is scripturally clear also that one can be blotted out of the Book of Life. [ The same thing..]

Paul the apostle should have been given this knowledge when he set about to establish the Church in the Pagan territories of Rome. It surely would have saved him from getting stoned, beaten, scourged with 195 bone-baring lashes, multiple strokes from the Cane..[rods], imprisoned and depressed beyond measure.

He just needed the faith to know that the wrestling with powers, spiritual darkness, and demonic Principalities was just in his mind after all. I guess I too need to be educated about that...for it seems like I'm in a battle most of the time.

Here are a few scriptures from Jesus about overcoming in the battle, and not being overcome by our enemies.

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5. "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

3.1 John 5:5
"Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

4.Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

5.Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

6.Revelation 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

7.Revelation 2:26
"And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations."

8.Revelation 3:5
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

10.Revelation 3:21
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Revelation 12:10-12 (New King James Version)
10 "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down."

11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

THEY OVERCAME SATAN....BY THESE THINGS. TO ME, IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE A WAR..."Taking the Land."

bowmyknees reminded us 'It is finished'.

The thing that is finished is the reign of sin and death for those who lay hold of the victory.

Jesus-is-God asked,

1Jn 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,

and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Is this true?

Yes it is - to those who cease from sin. As you have brought to attention already -

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

'He that is begotten of God keepeth himself'. What does this look like?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:

Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

The presence of the Holy Spirit binds the strong man.

Luke 11:21 When a strong man ARMED keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: (Ephesians 6:10 - 18)

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Peter 1:42 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add ...

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?

In Deuteronomy 13, for Israel, the worship of other gods is a stoning offence. Worship of God gave Him grounds to keep His people from the spiritual enemies all around.

After the crossing of Jordan a lot of battles lay ahead. Symbolic of strongholds, was Jebus, a rocky fort which easily eluded capture by its very structure. It wasn't until a fourth generation Israelite called David put his mind to taking Jebus (also symbolic of a stony heart), that it was won (interestingly, by someone else) so that David could make his home there, and Zion (its new name) became the centre of praise and worship.

By the time of Malachi, even the priesthood's attitude to worshipping God was displeasing to Him. By the time of Christ, the land had been completely taken over by a foreign power. God had removed His general protection from the leadership, although there were still Israelites watching for the Messiah, who would come, and who did conquer the general stronghold of sin in mankind.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea. [sea = the peoples]

{piercing: or, crossing like a bar}

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

I don't believe the New Testament teaches that all demons are interested in sin. Some prevent normal function. Some promote dysfunction. Some torment the mind in many different ways. All are opposed to the kingdom of God.

Amen ginnyrose

Victory is given to us, IF we overcome. There is faith mixed in this, and some suffering also.

This attitude is not resident in the cults. It is the only path to holiness.