The destruction of the flesh

I wonder if anyone else has noticed the lack of symmetry between these two passages?

I'm interested in other verses which might separate between, or show a relationship between, Satan's powers in the first verses, and Christ's warning in the second verses.

Christ is looking for repentance, but Paul seems to think there's a stage before that. I'm trying to understand Paul's statement. I think I understand Christ's.

Thoughts?

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 TO DELIVER SUCH AN ONE TO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

[It is clear that the change Paul wants to see, is in the hands of the Corinthians. Perhaps also in the actions of the one who is being condemned.]

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; AND SHE REPENTED NOT. 22 Behold, I WILL CAST HER INTO A BED, AND THEM THAT COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER INTO GREAT TRIBULATION EXCEPT THEY REPENT of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

all flesh must decrease if Christ is to be glorified and represented.

If the holy ghost is to work, then flesh must disintegrate n die

In 1 Corinthians he's involving Satan. Why?

Hi David,

Thanks for your reply.

Reading the Corinthian verses again, I see that Paul had made a judgement on his own, but he was inviting the church, together with him, 'with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ', to deliver the man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.

I still don't understand what this actually means, or what it had to be done - unless merely because at the time of Paul's writing the man remained unrepentant, and the church hadn't been capable of disciplining him on their own. I still have no idea what it mean to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. How does it work?

On Pergamos: Revelation 2
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Again, it seems that the repentance Christ is exhorting, is like that in Corinth. He wants those who hold false doctrines to be put out of fellowship. That's what they have to repent of. This would tie in with Paul's injunction to Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Respectfully, not to disagree - but just to show how the Church at Corinth was so much like our Churches of today.
To state it plainly, Corinth was Paul's biggest headache.

Paul had to get wind of this activity going on in the Corinthian Church and rebuked the entire church before and after he laid out the measures to be taken.

These verses really should speak to some churches and members today -

1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

AtG,

Have you seen these verses?

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have DELIVERED UNTO SATAN, that THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPHEME.

Roman Catholicism purged physically from the church those that they considered "heretics" Some Protestant reformers were guilty of the same.

I don't think the destruction of the flesh means physical death.

Otherwise the sentence following "DELIVERED UNTO SATAN" regarding Hymenaeus does not make sense. How could he "learn not to blaspheme" if he was killed?

This seems like an expression meaning to "put away the wicked man from among yourselves".

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

The design for this whole thing is redemptive. If a man is put to death physically, how could he "reform" and be restored to the Lord and to His Body?

v9 have no company with

v11 with such a one do not even eat

This is severing of Christian fellowship.

I think RobertW provided the rest of it wonderfully.

This phrase, “for the destruction of the flesh”, seems closer to turning the man over to Satan (i.e., back into the world), that he may reap the fruit of his rebellion.

Because, when you are put out of a loving fellowship of true believers and not allowed to come back, this is exremely distressing because you know that you have been loved and treated well in this group that truly knows the Lord and that is a rare find. And they are exercising the Lord's chastening on you. You can't just go down the block to the next "loving" fellowship. Most are works oriented factories. These are people that extended their lives to you. You aren't being put out of an organization you are being put out of a FAMILY.

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are TAKEN CAPTIVE BY HIM AT HIS WILL.

A777

David, thanks for your further reply.

I am quite uneasy at the thought that modern Christians may not have the same powers through the Holy Spirit, as Paul did. Probably we don't have the same understanding, but as James said, 'If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask ... '. God will not withhold any good gift from His children.

Robert, thank you for the full explanation you gave, which concurs with the extract from Matthew Henry brought by Oracio (thanks, bro). The idea of being 'delivered to Satan' brings Job to mind. Surely he suffered many losses and not by way of reaping the rewards of sin.

A777 said,

I don't think the destruction of the flesh means physical death.

Otherwise the sentence following "DELIVERED UNTO SATAN" regarding Hymenaeus does not make sense. How could he "learn not to blaspheme" if he was killed?

Paul seems certain Satan has no power over a person's soul. His domain of power is ONLY 'the flesh' - but 'not to blaspheme' includes the misplaced affection of hearts.

I believe the Lord gives us the power to do what's right: to repent, to mortify the flesh, to walk worthy of the vocation to which we have been called.

Therefore I do see that a person claiming to be a Christian has to change from his former ways, if he is to remain in fellowship with the body of Christ.

Both appear to concern reprobate saints, and both are judged by Paul, so that the church should be cleared in these matters.Both judgements are different in outcome. Again, I would say that I believe Paul had authority as an apostle of Christ to act and judge in this way.

I don't believe they were rebrobate.

Reprobate means "without hope of salvation".

I believe they were unrepentant and these practices were meant to be restorative in nature if at all possible. It is not just about "clearing the church" but doing something that will hopefully bring restoration. It all depended on the one being chastised. The ball was in his court, you could say. The church had to fulfill their responsibility which was meant to help the offender. That is the way discipline is suppose to work.

You must remember that brothers and sisters in Christ are closer to each other (should be) than brothers and sisters after the flesh. Therefore, being alienated from the family of God (a true family of believers) would be extremely distressing and punitive. You would have no where to go, except to the world which represented no hope at all.

Very different today, except in rare cases where there are true families of believers.

Regarding authority:

Since Paul was a vessel of the Holy Spirit and we are vessels of the Holy Spirit, the authority lies in the Holy Spirit, not the vessel.

The authority of the Holy Spirit has not changed and the need for this authority in the church has not changed, because the same enemies that Paul had, we have. There is a great need for the authority of the Lord Jesus to be resident in believers today. And this is spiritual authority, not authority over men.

The only exception is that Apostles today have no authority to create any new canon of Scripture.

My take...

A777

Oracio, are you in a church with small groups?

Anonymous777, I wonder where you got the idea that 'Reprobate means "without hope of salvation" '? I would like to disagree, firmly. This is not to say that all reprobates will repent, or, that it's easy for them to repent, but I do believe it's sanctioned by scripture (see below).

I believe they were unrepentant and these practices were meant to be restorative in nature if at all possible.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; FULL of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.

(In other words, these sins are not even secret!)

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; NOT KNOWING THAT THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADETH THEE TO REPENTANCE?

(That is, the 'thee' with the 'reprobate mind'.)

I wondered about skipping some of those verses, but they seem to indicate there there isn't anything which cannot be repented - including the condition into which a person might fall if they 'hold the truth in unrighteousness'.

Websters Definition of REPROBATE
transitive verb
1: to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil
2: to foreordain to damnation
3: to refuse to accept : reject

In the New Testament it is used several times to mean a person whose works won't pass God's test.

This is the meaning in 2 Corinthians 13:5-7.

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be REPROBATE?

(Paul is drawing a distinction between Jesus Christ either being in you or ye are reprobate)

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not REPROBATE.

Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobate."

In Titus 1:16 Paul talks about some men who he calls "deceivers." "They profess that they know God; but IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work REPROBATE."

The last phrase means that if they were tested by their good works they would fail the test.

If he is reprobate, that is if he fails God's test of righteousness, it is because he chooses not to accept the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ. He is not without hope unless he chooses to give up that hope which is reprobation.

That is how I understand it.

A777

hi brother A777,

If he is reprobate, that is if he fails God's test of righteousness, it is because he chooses not to accept the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ.

However, Paul in Romans 1 was not referring to those who had already rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ, but to those whom he says 'when they knew God' because He had revealed Himself 'in' them by His 'creation', 'chose not to retain the knowledge' of Him. In Paul's own words:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest IN them; for GOD HATH SHOWED [it] unto them.

20 For the INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM from the creation of the world ARE CLEARLY SEEN, being understood BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 because that, WHEN they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.'

This generalisation is later given more shape, naming the Jew and the Gentile:

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul uses the same argument in Acts 14 where it is clear he's in the company of idolaters at Lystra.

8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: 9 the same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10 said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14 [Which] when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15 and saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16 who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. 18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Turning from idolatry is eminently possible all through scripture, so I take your point that if CHRISTIANS veer away from truth, their reprobation may indeed become permanent. Very sad.

Hi Oracio,

I wasn't meaning to put you on the spot! I just wondered, because you seem quite knowledgeable about the workings of real Church. I often read your posts but don't comment in the thread. Thanks for sharing your situation.

I came from a Presbyterian childhood into charismatic housechurches, which was a terrifying experience for me. That's where I really began to understand more of the detail of what real Christianity is about. Right now, I'm not in a church, but do have a local small group I can attend, which is not exactly like 'church' because of the people who make up the group, but, IS like church because the person who leads spiritually, HAS been called by God to a pastoral ministry. In that respect one cannot wish for more love, faithful prayer, or readiness to care in a practical way (and so on). God is good. :)

Oracio, I am not going to be firm on this yet.

Leaving work and will have a deeper look into this.

Blessings to you my friend,
A777

Hi David,

I don't think we are. The verses which mention 'reprobate' - although the word is a strong statement of disapproval - may not preclude all repentance thereafter. It's just that we hear about these at the time the 'reprobates' have been delivered to Satan. We do know that the man in Corinth repented, so that seems to indicate being 'delivered to Satan' is not necessarily final.

By the way on the subject of delivering to Satan, do you think this is what Jesus Himself did when He sent away Judas in the upper room?

More on that next time. It's late here.

Hi David, AtG and Oracio,

In pondering these scriptures last night regarding "delivering one unto Satan" and the scriptures regarding "reprobate", it was helpful for me to look into the full counsel of God and to remember that everything He does in our lives is with a view to repentance, restoration and reconciliation.

I started with Deut 11.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Today, many believe that since the "law has been done away with", there is no longer "the curse of the law". But then they look around at their family or their congregations and they see the curses of the law. Their religious traditions have caused them to have a total lack of understanding about the part of God's law that plays in the life of every Christian.

We have been taught that ALL of our trials are blessings from the Lord and not curses. Now, Jesus said that we are to set the captives free but we need to understand first why they are captive and we need to remember that the enemy comes but to kill, steal and destroy. These are not blessings!

Almost everytime that someone brings up something about the law others cry "legalism" or "you don't understand grace". Until we are willing to hear what God says about His law, we will never know true freedom nor will we have any understanding about the powers of darkness.

We see that the law did not get destroyed.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We also know in Matthew 22 that if we do these two things we have fulfilled the law and are no longer a law breaker.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, if Jesus did not abolish the law, what does the law do today?

The law stands to bring judgement on all sin.

The law brings the wrath of God.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The law brings a curse.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The law is a ministry of death.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious...

The law is a ministry of condemnation.
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory...

Who are the lawbreakers. They are those who do not walk in love and cannot walk in love. Their hearts are set on things that their hearts love. Their carnal mind is enmity against God it is not subject to the law of God (which commands us to walk in love) neither indeed can be. So that, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:7,8)

So, God is commanding us to walk in love or be destroyed.

And that is why the Old Testament is very relevant to us today (the powers of darkness carried out the curse of the law for God), except of course regarding the New Covenant through the Lamb of God (Jesus) and that we don't have to offer up sacrifices of bulls and goats anymore. And we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit and offer up spiritual sacrifices to God, daily.

If the Church was taught that the curses of God are still in effect today for those that refuse to walk in love and therefore break His law (Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor) there would be more of a fear of God today and you would not see such a carnal church with the powers of darkness all over them.

Because if we love our neighbor, we won't commit adultery with our neighbor's wife, or bear false witness against our neighbor.

The backslidden church today actually uses God's Word to justify their sins (especially Romans 7). Forms of godliness have explained the love that Jesus talks about away. They say that it is impossible to walk in the kind of love that the law requires and this is true if you are being led by a doctrine that does not conform you to godliness and does not even give you the hope that you can be holy. But if you are led by the Holy Spirit, He will make you holy just as He is holy.

When we are led by the Holy Spirit we are not under the judgement of God's law because we are fulfilling the law by walking in love. When we walk in the flesh we defraud and take advantage of others and this is sin and breaks God's law.

Those who sin by walking after the flesh do not have a hedge of protection against the powers of darkness. Therefore the powers of darkness bring the judgement, wrath and curse of the law upon all those who walk after the works of the flesh.

All these things come upon law-breakers.

I said earlier, that the "Powers of Darkness carry out the curses of the law".

Getting back to 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What I am seeing now is that God is bringing judgment and curses upon us (deliver such an one unto Satan) in order to get us to repent. This is not new in the NT (1 Cor 5:5). It has been God's way throughout the Bible.

These verses illutstrate what I said earlier, that the "powers of darkness carry out the curses of the law to all law-breakers". This is how the Lord God, "Delivered His people unto Satan in order to bring repentance and restoration. Satan is the rod of God's anger and He uses him as a tool to chastise His people.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation
Isa 10:6 I will send him AGAINST AN HYPOCRITICAL NATION, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to TREAD THEM DOWN like the mire of the streets.

Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; BECAUSE OF THE WICKEDNESS OF THY DOINGS, whereby THOU HAST FORSAKE ME.

Jer 29:17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, THEY ARE SO EVIL.

Jer 29:21 ...I will deliver them into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall slay them before your eyes;

Jer 29:23 Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD.

Eze 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:

Eze 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

We see that sin opens the doors in our lives to the powers of darkness which is judgement from God to chastise us.

So, I will agree with you that "reprobate" may not preclude repentance. God has a way of getting our attention and bringing us to our senses so that we will repent.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

We ignore the warnings and curses of God at our own peril and this is why the church today is dwelling place of demons. False teaching, doctrines of demons and forms of godliness. They have been brought into captivity and yet they say they are blessed.

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

A777

Thanks, A777, for your long, thoughtful, scripturally supported post. Here are more verses which fit - but are there others which would contradict?

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the LAWLESS and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

On the side of love, these passages:

John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Because if we love our neighbor, we won't commit adultery with our neighbor's wife, or bear false witness against our neighbor.

Looking at the Greek, that's mainly because my neighbour may not feel any compulsion to love me as he loves himself, but my brother MUST love me as he loves himself. However, loving HIMSELF, is not the standard. Agape in the Church is loving the other as the Father loved the Son, and as the Son has loved us. John puts it this way in his first epistle.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4

If the Church was taught that the curses of God are still in effect today for those that refuse to walk in love and therefore break His law (Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor) there would be more of a fear of God today and you would not see such a carnal church with the powers of darkness all over them.

I said earlier, that the "Powers of Darkness carry out the curses of the law".

Getting back to 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What I am seeing now is that God is bringing judgment and curses upon us (deliver such an one unto Satan) in order to get us to repent. This is not new in the NT (1 Cor 5:5). It has been God's way throughout the Bible.

I'd like to hear what others think.

Hi AtG,

Grab a coffee and have a sit.

Nice post, good food for thought.

AtG, when you think about the Philistines, Hittites, Jebusites, Girgashites, Amorites, Assyrians, Babylonians, etc, there were principalities and powers and authorities in high places behind them and controlling them.

Today, we are not attacked by these "tiny" nations or tribes, but rather the principalities and powers and authorities behind them still exist and as I pointed out in "Facing the Enemy" in the Possess The Land thread, there is a hierarchy of "principalities and authorities" that attack God's people. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

The OT and the NT are completely cohesive and complimentary of each other. There is a saying, I don't know from whom, but it goes like this, "The NT explained is in the OT contained". Actually, this time, Jesus explains one of the symbols in the OT, in Matt 13.

You know many examples of this. Here is one concerning the powers of darkness.

Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the WAY SIDE, and the FOWLS came and devoured them up:

What are the fowls?

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the WICKED ONE, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the WAY SIDE.

The Fowls are the Powers of Darkness, the wicked one or wicked ones.

Jesus explains that to those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Now, look at this.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations (idolatry) in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. (Today, we are the His house and these abominations are the works of the flesh found in Gal 5).

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places (pride) of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire (not leading their sons and daughters in the ways of the Lord, either. Causing them to learn sin, rebellion and idolatry); which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Obviously, God is very wroth.

Jer 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the FOWLS OF HEAVEN (powers of darkness), and for the beasts of the earth (demonic forces); and none shall fray them away.

Jer 7:34 Then will I cause (God is doing this) to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: FOR THE LAND SHALL BE DESOLATE.

We are already seeing in our study on Possess the Land what the Land today is. It is us.

Do you see how the OT and NT are in agreement? The fowls of heaven still exist and still are used by God as judgement on His people. When I read the OT, I am reading it with a NT mind but I understand exactly what the Lord is saying and how it all applies to me, today. You can be sure that the early church and the Apostles knew what the OT was saying. The warnings and curses are still valid, today.

You can search for other instances of FOWLS of heaven or some variation thereof. Also, "beasts of the field" in the OT is the powers of darkness.

Let's have a look at Revelation. There is going to be two suppers. One for the Bridegroom and the Bride and one for the Fowls of Heaven (powers of darkness), so this which is talked about in the OT is supported in the NT, again, not just about the Word that was being sown in Matt 13.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS THAT FLY IN THE MIDST OF HEAVEN, Come and gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the great God (of the GREAT GOD. This is not the supper of the Lamb).

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

So, the Powers of Darkness (FOWLS OF HEAVEN) are going to have a supper, too.

Satan has not changed. Man has not changed and God has not changed. Everything continues as it was. Even being righteous before God has not changed. It is still the faith of Abraham. The only thing that has changed is the Temple, which we are. We are the habitation of God.

Remember, even when Israel had the very presence (Ark of God) of God in their midst they committed iniquity and were judged and God used the powers of darkness behind the Amorites, Hittites, etc, to bring His judgement.

So too, today, we are the Temple of the Living God, we have the presence of God dwelling within us, and if we commit iniquity in the Land (our body) God will use the powers of darkness to bring chastisement, which is judgement upon us. This is not understood today in the Church and many are experiencing the "beasts of the field" and the "fowls of heaven".

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The imagery and symbolism in the OT definitely means specific things.

Read Jeremiah 12 with a NT mindset.

Read Jeremiah 15 with a NT mindset. (Always read the OT from a NT perspective).

Jer 15:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth. (What has God so upset?)

Jer 15:2 And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.

Jer 15:3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the LORD: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. (sword, dogs, fowls and beasts are all froms of the powers of darkness).

Jer 15:4 And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

Jer 15:5 For who shall have pity upon thee, O Jerusalem? or who shall bemoan thee? or who shall go aside to ask how thou doest?

Jer 15:6 THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward (backslidden): therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee (judgement), and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

Jer 15:7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I WILL DESTROY MY PEOPLE SINCE THEY RETURNED NOT FROM THEIR WAYS.

Now, let's ask ourselves, what is a "righteous man"?

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (We can choose to still be in the flesh).

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (So, what if you walk after the flesh?)

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (so what if we walk after the flesh? It then becomes the judgment and curses of the law which will be fulfilled in us).

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And what are we trying to do as we discuss this Word back and forth?

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

We are saying, wake up Church and SIN NOT.

I will close with this,

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am really happy that Jesus Christ intercedes for us and I believe God has more patience on us today because of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, according to Hebrews 12, God will still chastise (judge, rebuke, discipline) His children. And we should alwas flee sin and be holy as He is holy because the deceitfulness of sin can harden our hearts.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Kindly,
A777

In the following talk from the Dublin Revival Conference, Don Currin systematically examines the different ways in scripture which show how God exercises His wrath.

The Wrath of God

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=19068

Hi A777,

In pondering these scriptures last night regarding "delivering one unto Satan" and the scriptures regarding "reprobate", it was helpful for me to look into the full counsel of God and to remember that everything He does in our lives is with a view to repentance, restoration and reconciliation.

I was thinking about verses with birds in them (fowls of the air, mainly), and apart from Matt 24:28 (eagles), this instance (v 32) - which is in Matthew and Luke as well, comes to mind. (There are also interesting references to 'fox' and 'foxes' in scripture, indicating a specific nature of pest(ilence).)

Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? 31 [It is] like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: 32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

This seems to be a benign picture, but I wonder if it is, spiritually speaking? The only time I heard this preached upon, the preacher seemed to be saying that the church could be a good hiding place for unclean spirits. (Yes. That definite.) This thought ties in with the many verses you brought from the Old Testament, (and the field which had been deliberately sown with tares by an enemy).

Being delivered to Satan does sound extreme. I tend to think that the use of the name 'Satan', was shorthand for 'the powers of darkness', always remembering that Satan is not a free agent. God the Father even allowed God the Son to be tested by Him not only in the wilderness, but right in the thick of normal communiation with the disciples. We need to know our God and worship HIM.

Hi David,

I quoted this passage to Jeremy in his question about observations or scriptures associated with the spirit going out of the house, but returning to find it empty and garnished, and taking seven more wicked... (I mentioned fox in the passing. I was also thinking of the 'little foxes that spoil the vines').

And Jesus here says that He had to walk today, tomorrow and the day following as a hen gathering her brood under her wings. Naturally speaking, not a good thing to do.

It shows that He truly expects to protect us from danger.

Does anyone believe that?

Thanks RobertW for a fine synopsis; very anointed...and 777 and Oracio too. A very needed and deep study.
This is about holiness and Jealousy. The Lord says,
Exodus 34:14

14 "For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God,

15 ...lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods"....

The existence of the holy church, from the garden of Eden, on until today, is about Holiness...the chief aspect of God's character. It is about ourselves, being the actual Temple of Jahweh God on earth...both individually and corporately. God has, and always had a people, that He owns. They are His offspring. It is the OUTCALLED ONES.

It is the church. It is His Temple; US.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 (New King James Version)
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are!"

Ananias and Sapphira was an act of jealousy from the Lord, for their lying greed would eventually defile the young and exceedingly holy first church. They were offered repentance from the great Apostle Peter...ONE TIME! ever so brief. "Did you sell your land for this many shekels?"

They chose not to repent; to carry their deceit...and payed with their lives, on the spot. Their flesh was destroyed...their body. They defiled the temple, and were delivered over.

The young man fornicating with his fathers concubine evidently did repent. Judas, it seemed, was never offered the opportunity.....and fulfilled his "son of Perdition" role.

I believe that every instance of a soul being delivered unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, must be delivered in this vein. That is what it is about.

Shepherds, for the sake of the flock, must maintain holiness, for holiness and the issues of life are the same; They are one. Jesus said ; I AM THE Life, The Way, and the truth.

This is the the most important issue for the
Pastors that I can think of, and the highest duty and call. It must be done, from time to time, when necessary, and it occurs, or should, when the Holy church is being defiled by the wicked unrepentant. This may also take the form of infiltrating the church with bad and lying doctrine....heretics.

Titus 3:9-11 (New King James Version)

9. "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."

Heretic means divisive...holding on to wicked doctrine, and spreading it, and thereby defiling, polluting the holy church.

Continued excessive fleshy sin,or simply holding on to the lie, while enjoying the benefits of God's Temple. "Deliver such a one to Satan!"

For the sake of the little ones, and a dwelling place for our God, it must be done, when neccessary from tome to time. Where is it today?? In the power of the Spirit? It's coming back soon.

From AtG:

This seems to be a benign picture, but I wonder if it is, spiritually speaking? The only time I heard this preached upon, the preacher seemed to be saying that the church could be a good hiding place for unclean spirits. (Yes. That definite.) This thought ties in with the many verses you brought from the Old Testament, (and the field which had been deliberately sown with tares by an enemy).

Milton Green who ministered in hundreds of churches and ministered deliverance from the Pastor on down in many of the same churches, said that "The Church is the dwelling place of demons" and that "there is a war going on and the Church has not shown up for the battle".

Unclean spirits certainly seem to be welcome in the Churches, today.

This is nothing new, the SYNAGOGUE was a good hiding place for unclean spirits, too. I wonder why it was a good hiding place? Do you think the powers of darkness had convinced the religious leaders that unclean spirits could not cohabitate with them?

But let's back up a bit,,In Zechariah, we see this.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for UNCLEANNESS.

This is prophetic of Jesus Christ, our Fountain.

What is the source of this uncleanness?

Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the IDOLS out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the UNCLEAN SPIRIT to pass out of the land.

IDOLS are associated with an UNCLEAN SPIRIT or vice-versa, eh? See here.

Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the IDOLS, and to the charmers, and to them that have FAMILIAR SPIRITS, and to the wizards.

Ok back to Zechariah and it's fulfillment.
Here is the fulfillment of Zechariah 13. The FOUNTAIN has arrived!!

Mar 1:23 And there was in their SYNAGOGUE a man with an UNCLEAN SPIRIT; and he cried out, (he probably never cried out before. Only cried out because the Spirit of God in Jesus was present). Why doesn't this happen more of today? Something is missing and I don't think it is the unclean spirits.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Mar 1:25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and COME OUT OF HIM.

Mar 1:26 And when the UNCLEAN SPIRIT had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the UNCLEAN SPIRITS, and they do obey him.

A777

Hi to all reading,

Thanks A777 for your further thoughts.

They have led me to think about other connected verses - though possibly not everyone would agree with the following.

One thing I noticed about the way Paul phrases the accusation is: 'that one should have his father's wife.' He puts the responsibility squarely with the man. This is consistent throughout scripture. Just wanted to mention it, in light of the current thread, 'The Feminization of Chritsianity', https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39037&forum=34.

We don't know if the woman is in the church or not. I've never wondered, before today, but perhaps she was not, or she would also have been censured - as we see in the other example in the OP. We might find it easy to assume such behaviour is beyond repentance, or a sign of never having been a Christian, but this is NOT what Christ states.

Therefore, in light of His expectations of the church leaders in the churches to whom He writes through John in Revelation 2 and 3, we have to think that there is a correlation between what John said here, when writing to SAINTS:

1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY THE SPIRITS WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS NOT OF GOD: AND THIS IS THAT [spirit] OF ANTICHRIST, WHEREOF YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT SHOULD COME; and even now already is it in the world.

and Paul said here: 1 Corinthians 12:1 - 14
Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

contd.

For those who have heard that certain gifts are not for the Church - a distinction I do not 'see' in scripture - there is another place where all the gifts are by implication included in a grander, but more compact form of the 1 Cor 12 statement, here in Ephesians 4:1 - 9, 11 - 16:

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: THAT WE [henceforth] BE NO MORE CHILDREN, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the SLEIGHT OF MEN, [and] CUNNING CRAFTINESS, whereby THEY LIE in wait TO DECEIVE; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.'

Paul goes on to compare their former life as Gentiles, with his foregoing description of the direction in which the Church should be moving - the up-building of the saints - both one to another, and, in the context of the assembly by the gifts given to the body by Christ.

In the light of the various censures Christ meted out to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, it seems imperative that 'discerning of spirits', as John defines, is seen to be FOR the Church - perhaps even more - than for 'the world'. John went on to say of those whose 'spirit' did not confess that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh:

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.

Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.'

Note how he immediately turns us back to Christ's 'new commandment' - that we 'love one another'? This is how Paul said the body would be built up, in Eph 4:16 above. We really have to 'get' this connection. It is no use to God's plan if we simply eject from our company, every person who needs deliverance from a wrong spirit. He has given us gifts to use under His anointing and direction for His own purpose.

Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it:
except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh [but] in vain.

I have often thought that Paul's instruction to the Corinthian church:
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: 2 Cor 6:14 (KJV) does not initially refer to marriages or business partnership, as some say. Rather Paul is speaking of the church being the temple of God, and is allowing for the fact that there will be unbelievers among them. "Be not unequally yoked " is saying have unbelievers among you, but not too many.

Possibly you were taking a step of faith suggesting there should not be too many unbelievers in the assembly, but I would go further and suggest there should be as few as possible.

I'm reminded of a Wesley hymn which describes believers as 'escaped from the world' (Peter's line in the first chapter of his second epistle), and I feel the sanctuary of church has been lost by the numbers of unbelievers who feel free to attend. Their presence completely alters how the saints behave, and worship is curtailed considerably. (Probably other aspects of fellowship are different, too.)

Also, if you keep reading 2 Cor 6, Paul is talking about Christians mixing with unbelievers at THEIR places of worship, and goes on to say v 17 WHEREFORE COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YE SEPARATE, SAITH THE LORD...' and that's not the end of the command, God continues 'AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING', before comes the outcome God desires 'AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU'.

So the believers generally are able by the Holy Ghost to discern what is of God.

Hi David,

It's delightful to find you're in agreement! :)

I used to sing that hymn too. I found it on the internet in the public domain, posted on a Palmer family website in memory of Joy. So, where did you used to sing it, and did you know the Palmers?

Is this even a deeper confession? Not that Jesus came in the flesh as a man and went to the Cross for all believers, but now He is come in our flesh, and our new life.

It was important that Christ came in the flesh though, because that's where we are vulnerable to the enemy, and He showed it is possible to BE a man - real flesh and blood - and not sin.

Only if one is born from above as He was.

Question to Christinyou:
"Will we carry the memory of our past sins into eternity?" to Christinyou.

[The Glorious New Creation ] “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind...Isaiah 65.

We could not be redeemed with the memory of our past sins....we would be in torment, and condemnation.

They have been forever cleansed, and forgotton, and remembered no more!!!!

Returning to the matter of 'great tribulation', and that God uses demons to accomplish His will sometimes, I was interested to notice in a post by A777 in Possess the Land, p5, the breakdown of meanings associated with the people groups which God was going to drive out of the land.

In the context of this thread, that would mean 'destroy in the flesh' so that it could be occupied by God's people -our flesh being under the control of the Holy Spirit, separated unto God, victorious over temptation and sinful urges.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38854&forum=34&start=40&46

'Amorites: PUBLICITY, PROMINENCE and PRIDE (worshipping the gods of I and Me). THE FIRST THING GOD DOES when He begins to deal with us is to humble our pride. Satan, the father of lies, tells us that pride is our best weapon of self-defense (of defending or protecting who we really are). Pride is a pretender. It is obsessed with putting on a good, self-confident front - even when we're cowering behind it, desperately needy and afraid.

CANAANITES: REJECTION (What about me? My feelings are hurt)
Canaan was one of the sons of Ham, who was one of the sons of Noah. The name, Canaan, represents rejection. Just as Adam and Eve were rejected by God and driven away from His presence because of rebellion, Ham made judgments against Noah and became accursed. Rejection already has a place in our lives when we are born of in Adam's image. Our fallen nature is separated from God; we are not whole. We need to feel like we have "a place"; we need to feel like we "belong".

HITTITES: FEAR (I am afraid that something will happen to me or to the people and things that I love). The Hittites were also descendants of Ham. The name "Hittite" means terror, and comse from a root word which means "to break down through violence, confusion or fear." It can also mean "broken, dismayed or in dread or fear".

PERIZZITES: UNFORGIVENESS (Look at what they have done to me; I'll never forgive them or let them hurt me again). The root word means "to separate". The Perizzites were first mentioned in the story of Lot and Abram in Genesis 13. Their herdsmen were in so much strife that Lot and Abram had to separate themselves from each other.

HIVITES: REBELLION
If you trace the word "Hivite" back to its root, you will find that it means "Eve", who was the mother of rebellion. The Hivites were first mentioned in Genesis chapter 10 as descendants of Ham. In Genesis 34, Dinah, Jacob's daughter, was defiled by a man of the Hivites when she went out from the house of Jacob (Israel) to "see the daughters of the land".

JEBUSITES: DEFILEMENT
The name "Jebusite" means "to trample, loathe, tread down or tread under, to be polluted". The Jebusites were a picture of the defilement which comes into our lives and into our souls through sexual lust, impurity and perversion.'

It struck me that Saul (the king before David) had been sorely afflicted with a Canaanite spirit. Although he tried to disguise it by appearing to be interested in other people from time to time, actually, he was only concerned about himself and his own feelings of well-being, which were measured by his own standards and depended entirely on his perception of other people's opinions (about him, of course).

I guess that brings in the Amorite spirit as well.

Possibly these show us that, humanly speaking he did not cope at all well with the limelight of being king, nor with having been given a prophetic anointing. In his mind, these two factors only served to increase his self-consciousness - which, probably he already had in bucketloads, being head and shoulders above everyone else in Israel, in height.

Instead of being humbled by God's call on his life and becoming more of a man of prayer, he tended to fall back on his own natural thinking and strengths to get success. He didn't rate obedience to God very highly, and as we know his daughter was very young when he gave her to be David's wife, and she was an idolatress, we can guess she learned idolatry as a child in her father's household, (for David never worshipped an idol all his life).

1 Samuel 15:28
And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, better than thou.

1 Samuel 28:17
And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, to David:

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and AN EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him.

Hi AtG,

I am writing this chronologically as I study so it may seem "choppy", but look what the Word reveals.

Just saw this.
I need to ask the Lord for some insight on these Amalekites. They dwell in the valley and so far I see how cowardly and sneaky they are. But don't know why.

Num 14:25 (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) To morrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.

Valley could be inferiority complex and "bruising" from rejection, and various hurts. Whatever the sin(s) of the Amalekites were, God wanted them totally exterminated (redundant?).

Num 24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the FIRST OF THE NATIONS; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.
(A description of various nations is in Num 24).

1Sa 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and UTTERLY DESTROY the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Looking for "Amalekites" yielded some info that I need to think about, but if you look for "Amalek", you will find more regarding the beginnings of the Amalekites.

Gen 36:12 And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife. (He came from the lineage of Esau, Esau's son, specifically).

The Children of Israel fought the Amalekites when Moses' hand had to be held up by Aaron. Then there is this curious piece.

Exo 17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
Exo 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

The Lord says that He will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Which makes him even more interesting.

Ok, here it is. Remember, I said that they seemed cowardly?

Deu 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
Deu 25:18 How he met thee by the way, and SMOTE THE HINDMOST OF THEE, even ALL THAT WERE FEEBLE BEHIND THEE, when thou wast FAINT AND WEARY; and he feared not God.
Deu 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

This makes me think of "back-stabbing, gossip, slander, defamation of character, coming against people that are hurting, taking advantage of people (using them as the Nicolaitans did), etc. Do you have any additional thoughts?
Basically, undermining and taking advantage of people when they cannot fight back or don't have prior knowledge of what you are doing to them (attacking them).

I noticed that the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites dwell in the "mountains" which usually speaks of "PRIDE" in the OT. Makes sense when you look at their sins.

AMORITES: PUBLICITY, PROMINENCE and PRIDE (worshipping the gods of I and Me).

HITTITES: FEAR (I am afraid that something will happen to me or to the people and things that I love). Can be rooted in Pride.

JEBUSITES: DEFILEMENT
The name "Jebusite" means "to trample, loathe, tread down or tread under, to be polluted". The Jebusites were a picture of the defilement which comes into our lives and into our souls through sexual lust, impurity and perversion.'

Num 14:25 (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) To morrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.

Canaanites means Rejection and this makes sense because they dwelt in the VALLEY. (But, I know the root of

What does the Lord do when He comes into our lives? He brings down the proud (mountains), and lifts up the bruised and beaten (inferiority complex, no self-worth), he straightens out the perverted (does not have to mean sexual, just perverted way of looking at things in life instead of viewing life from God's perspective. Like evolution. It's a perversion of truth).

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight (repentance) in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 40:4 Every valley (inferiority) shall be exalted, and every mountain (pride) and hill shall be made low: and the crooked (perverted) shall be made straight, and the rough(bruised and broken)places plain:

Isa 40:29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
Isa 40:30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

That was interesting and I want to explore more, but have some other things to do.

Blessings,

A777

I will make a second reply, A777, but for now, Young's concordance tells me Amalek means 'warlike, dweller in the vale'.

I would say also, look at his forefather Esau for some light. Esau loved hunting, hence, perhaps, a predatory attitude in battle rather than honouring the opponent with a face-to-face encounter.

Regarding the valley, I would call that 'easy living' compared with the mountains. Less stamina is required and less travelling, although Young's describes them as 'marauding nomads'. There are other references to 'Esau' in the minor prophets (you'll have to check) and 'his' attitude to Israel, which the Lord would never tolerate.

Of 'the first of the nations' Young attributes it to 'either their antiquity or their warlike character'.

In Exodus 17, the people had been in need of water, just before Amalek came against them. That may be why Moses had to have help holding up the rod till the battle was won, and also why God was soo angry - apart from the fact that Israel and Amalek were the most closely related of all the tribes which God intended to drive out.

Exodus 17:1 And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and [there was] no water for the people to drink.

2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?

3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore [is] this [that] thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?

4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

5 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. 6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink.

And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. 7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

{Massah: that is, Temptation}
{Meribah: that is, Chiding, or, Strife}

8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

There are interesting NT associations with water.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Luke 22:10
And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

John 2:7
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it]. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 and saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 5:
2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

John 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

John 9:11
He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

John 13:4
He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Ephesians 5
Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Luke 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

2 Kings 5:10
And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

Luke 17:11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 and they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

See Leviticus 14 for full Old Covenant cleansing ritual for lepers.

Thanks for your contribution. Very interesting.

You mentioned "hunters". Definitely the powers of darkness are all "hunters", yet manifest differently in their attacks. I think what was most telling to me were these set of verses regarding the Amalekites.

Deu 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
Deu 25:18 How he met thee by the way, and SMOTE THE HINDMOST OF THEE, even ALL THAT WERE FEEBLE BEHIND THEE, when thou wast FAINT AND WEARY; and he feared not God.

I was thinking about this when you mentioned Esau as a hunter.

Pro 6:4 Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. (Spiritual sleep and slumber).

Pro 6:5 Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the HUNTER (powers of darkness), and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.

Luk 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into TEMPTATION.

We cannot view our enemies today as men. Rather, our enemy is powers and principalities in high places.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to AWAKE OUT OF SLEEP (spiritual slumber): for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1Th 5:6 Therefore LET US NOT SLEEP, as do others; but let us WATCH and be SOBER.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep (spiritual slumber) in the night (spiritual darkness); and they that be drunken are drunken (words of men and false doctrine) in the night.

Isa 29 - One of the enemy's strategies is to get us "drunk" on false doctrine (strong wine) and men's words (traditions of men), instead of the pure doctrin of the Holy Spirit.

Psa 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink (false doctrine); that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. (They don't discern things from a spiritual perspective, they are in spiritual darkness and slumber).

Isa 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE: and their honourable men are famished (spiritual "leaders"), and their multitude (congregation) dried up with thirst.

Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength ("leaders", "teachers") to mingle strong drink: (Mixture of a little truth with lies).

All of Isa 5 is very instructive, I won't post everything, here.

A study on "strong drink" in the OT, yields the perversion of God's Word in many instances.

Getting back to "The Destruction of the Flesh", Ezekiel 13 shows a people "enabled" by the "spiritual" leaders instead of "corrected" with truth.

I think it is clear that God Himself reserves the right to "deliver us for the destruction of the flesh".

Jer 16:16 Behold, I WILL SEND for many FISHERS, saith the LORD, and THEY SHALL FISH THEM; and after will I SEND FOR MANY HUNTERS, and THEY SHALL HUNT THEM from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

Jer 16:17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land (temple of the Holy Ghost), they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the DAY of AFFLICTION, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jer 16:20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? (Idolatry)

Jer 16:21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.

The Lord says that chastisement from Him (He uses the powers of darkness) is the DAY of AFFLICTION. (Jer 16:19 )

Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Paul was chastised and afflicted just like we all are. And it was for his edification and instruction, just like any other Christian. And what is the purpose? So that we will not perish for lack of knowledge. So that we will mature in Christ and this will benefit the Body of Christ as Paul says. Affliction is not just outward tribulation, but inward tribulation of the soul and chastisements of the heart from the Lord.

2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

I think if Christians (especially me) understood the severity of even little sins and what doors they open to the enemy, or what "place they give to the enemy", we would be more sober in spirit and watch more vigilantly in our walk with the Lord. The enemy is crafty and he will attack every part of us, body, soul and spirit.

A777