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What WAS Tozer doing in there??

P
Pandarus

Hi folks,

After hearing a lot of AW Tozers messages, and stories about him from folks that spent time with him - people like Leonard Ravenhill - I have become familiar with the stories that he used to spend HOURS each day with God in prayer.

Now, I must ask - what was he doing in there?

I have a deep hunger for God and I have 1/2 hour each morning I can spare daily and irregular other times. Usually I pray for about 20 mins. That seems to cover giving glory to him and praying for others. I also sing songs to him and play my instrument for him and to him. At times I also journal. And of course I do my daily reading of the Word.

Even on those occasions when I have extra time I can spend, these things I can easily fit into an hour and a bit. I've found if I do it every day it gets a bit repetitive.

By way of reply, I am of a biblical Pentecostal nature (not word of faith, prosperity or other such nonsense), and even if I exercise my gift of tongues I can't fill the time he did.

But Tozer spent this time EVERY day and he was obviously effective.

Again, what WAS he doing in there??

What did he pray about? Exactly HOW did he get his closeness with the Father?

S
sermonindex

i don't know but it suddenly occurred to me that we never read of Elijah spending HOURS in prayer. The few prayers recorded were apparently very short and to the point yet powerful. Don't know about the apostle Paul. Perhaps it is the heart that matters most, not the time.

H
HeartSong

Perhaps it is the heart that matters most, not the time.

Oh, He would have it that our heart be set upon Him ALL of the time. :)

S
StarofG0D

Paul prayed without ceasing... 1 Thes 5:17

:)

S
StarofG0D

Oh, He would have it that our heart be set upon Him ALL of the time. :)

Haha Amen Laura. :)

S
sermonindex

True. But then it could be said that Tozer was disobeying scripture, for he reportedly only prayed for many HOURS, and then ceased (for a time). Lol...Get my drift?

J
Jeremy221

Hi Panda,

I have wondered about this too. It seems one of the things that keeps us from abiding in His presence is obedience. I have found that when I desire to spend time with the Lord or when I feel the Spirit drawing me in, that after a time, I become distracted by things I know I should do or have failed to do at the Lord's leading. At this point, I am no longer at perfect rest because it has been made clear to me areas of my own disobedience. However, there are also other times that I will be drawn in by the Spirit and instructed simply to rest. I am to cast off all that occupies my heart and focus on Him at which times I am even unable to pray. The Spirit restrains me from uttering anything at all but bids me be still. I know that it was several months from the time I first heard these testimonies about Tozer and other men of God, who spent long hours in prayer, and I asked the Lord to do this in me until He started to draw me. Perhaps it is the slowness of my heart or simply the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that takes time to bring me to the place where I can actually begin. I think it would be wise to take the attitude of those from Hebrews 11 who had no written Bible but came to knowledge of God by diligently seeking His face expecting that He would show Himself to them. Keep pressing on in faith and you will be drawn to the object of your desire. 

Jeremy221

P
Pandarus

Hey folks,

Thanks for your posts. Yup, Jeremy I think I can relate to what you're saying. I have noticed he does tend to be quite slow in his movings and responses. Gor his good pleasure I suppose. Alright, I'll start praying for it.

Cheers,

P

S
sermonindex

He would have spent more of the time listening....

OJ

J
jimp

hi, oj you hit the nail on the head.len told me that tozer would lay on a mat and worship Him for who He is and spend the rest of the time quiet before Him. len said tozer got 90% of his books there.jimp

R
Renoncer

I heard an interesting story about Tozer. Tozer didn't begin prayer by "talking", but by "listening". Once, when he was visiting a church, he attended a prayer meeting. After a brief discussion with the other people who were at the prayer meeting, Tozer laid himself flat on the floor... and didn't say a word. After a significant period of time had passed, and the people grew increasingly uncomfortable, someone began to speak idle words. And then Tozer turned around and said "Shut up and listen!" I suspect the man needed to learn a lesson from God.

Anyways, Tozer spent time with God in the same way that Mary of Bethany would gaze at Jesus, listening to Him, waiting on Him, hanging on to His every word. May God be pleased to increase our intimacy with Him, such that we wouldn't simply bring a grocery list, but instead have an intimate relationship with Him.

In Christ Jesus,
Renoncer

P
PaulFaculin

Very good thread. I've heard that Tozer was also deeply influenced by Madame Guyonne, and no wonder they are like that in their pursuit of God's presence and leading. I've been always trying to learn from these people on how they press on towards more of God in their lives. I also love how Brother Lawrence practiced God's presence during his whole day activities. Oh the beauty and the wonder of Jesus!

J
JB1968

"Be still, and know that I am God".

R
RobertW

Tozer once wrote, "Writing is false when virtues are overdrawn and blemishes are concealed." So I am certain he would not want to be remembered without the 'warts' as it were.

May I suggest that only God knows what went on in his prayer room. Yet Tozer's biographers have given us insight as to what was going on outside his prayer room when he was in the prayer room. This is what Paul Harvey used to call, "the rest of the story."

They tell us that he tried to avoid people, even his family. He viewed folk to have 'diseased personalities' it is said, so he would hurry away from the pulpit so as to avoid folk. His wife Ada is said to have raised 7 kids (edit 6 boys and 1 girl) almost by herself. He would take train rides for hours just to be alone with God or to study. It all sounds virtuous, but I'm not fully convinced. I certainly have no plans to imitate the behavior.

Jesus never avoided people. Jesus loved children. The disciples sent them away, but Jesus wanted them near Him. He loved people and enjoyed their company. He was not a recluse. He did not spend the majority of his days and of His life in solitude. He interacted with individuals with a view to speaking into their life face to face. This is true of what we know of the apostles as well.

Tozer has been one of my heroes, but as I have come to know more of him I have put down the comic book. That is to say, I see him as a man of God, but a man nonetheless. As with all people we have to be careful what we imitate about them and we need a fuller picture of what was driving some of their deeds. Obviously Tozer loved God and loved spending time with Him. Mix that with a general desire to avoid life and people and suddenly one is holed up in a room for hours upon hours while the wife and kids are starving for attention. Tar and feather me now, but there is something wrong with that.

We need to pray and seek God in earnest. We need to spend time with the Lord. We need to follow the example of Jesus and the apostles and not get sidelined with thinking we can imitate or emulate the behavior of a person that had these issues. If Dorsett is to be believed both he and Ada his wife confided in friends that they had lived lonely lives. Snyder is much kinder, but still leaves a strong impression that he did not have a close family life with the wife or kids. They were not close. This is a problem in my view.

If Dorsett is to be believed, Ada once remarked, "Aiden loved Jesus Christ, Leonard loves me." That sounded very selfish in my ears when I first heard it. But after some years of reflection I realize that Tozer had a responsibility to get up and see about his family. To provide them with their needs emotionally. Women sometimes get bent out of shape when the husband is glues in front of the TV watching football for 6 hours Saturday and Sunday; is it scriptural or even sensical to spend so much time in study and prayer that life comes to a halt? Just asking. I know it sound very pious, but where is the precedent for it in scripture? So part of the answer of 'what he was doing' can only be answered from without the closet door; and if the biographers were right he was causing his wife to question whether or not he loved her.

S
sermonindex

Again, what WAS he doing in there??

What did he pray about? Exactly HOW did he get his closeness with the Father?


I read in the Ravenhill Biography (which gives some great insights between Ravenhill and Tozer and their spirituality: http://www.ravenhillbiography.com/) Where it states that Tozer said to ravenhill that he lies there on the carpet that is r worn face down from 9-12 everyday and just worships.

What he means is he did not pray for anything, no requests, just worship and most in silence contemplation of the Holiness and glory of God.

Be still and know that I am God. Not clearing your mind but filling it with the thoughts of God who He is and adoring Him for who He is.

S
sermonindex

That is enlightening, RobertW and so very sad. God only knows what our brother, A.W. struggled with.

I won't tar and feather you. I totally agree. And we all have blind spots, don't we. I hope we can learn from the tragedies in Tozer's relational life to his wife, kids and congregation.

I have often heard, "What good is it if you save the world but lose your family?"

Jesus was known by His personal ministry to people not the books that He wrote. The Lord wants to make us whole so that we are able to be relational with people as Jesus was. I think that if we cannot be relational then something is amiss (missing in our lives).

Best to keep Jesus as our "hero" and imitate Him.

One Shot: Reflections on the Life of A.W. Tozer
http://www.voiceofrevolution.com/2008/10/17/one-shot-reflections-on-the-life-of-aw-tozer/

A777


L
Lkid

thanks robertw. I have to agree with you there. If what we read about DL Moody is true though, he seemed to have found that proper balance in life between the 'prayer closet' and relational life. He was said to be a great husband and father and yet spent the time in prayer too. I hope to get the balance myself someday sooner than later preferably.

I think though that the key is a circular pattern. The more quality time (without becoming ridiculous) we spend in the presence of God worshipping Him, the more we will be filled to live for Him and the relationships will grow and we will then have more requests to take to God as intercessors on their behalf.

Hope that makes sense.

Lloyd

S
sermonindex

Hi Lkid,

I was blessed by some of your thoughts. Thanks.

You made me think of Romans 12.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

I believe we can "worship" God by doing His will and doing His will is to love our wife and children, being an example of love, kindness and holiness and speaking with them about Jesus and His Word. We should not think we are being robbed or missing out. As Jesus "invested" Himself in His (love ones) disciples (thank God He did!) we invest ourselves in our loved ones.

You used to worship by yourself, now you can worship with your children. The waking up at night will pass, and then you can get up early again and pray. We should never condemn ourselves if we cannot keep a spiritual "schedule". You can spend quality time with the Lord and your kids at the same time. Jesus showed us that.

By the indwelling Holy Spirit you can stay connected to God in a quality way and also be connected to people in a quality way.

Thank,s
A777

R
RobertW

Just to add agreement to the last few posts, I think that the more we spend time with God the more it should reflect in our behavior towards others. I'm reminded of Acts 4:13;

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

This is a common theme that in my view illustrates true spirituality. When our behavior runs parallel with Christ's then we are 'spiritual'. Steven is also an example of how benevolence flows from those that have been with Christ and are filled with His Spirit. If the prayer closet makes a person short, impatient and unaccommodating we need to check ourselves.

S
sermonindex

This story is troubling me since I read it earlier and I can't seem to shake it.

Ada Tozer could not be a Suzannah Wesley - who spent so much time with her 15 children, raising them up in the LORD and would NEVER speak against her husband.

Ada Tozer was Dead Wrong to say such things against her husband and their private lives. Sorry if some disagree.

I would rather have a man like Tozer than a very attentive man to myself. I'd rather just use that time to get on my face as well. I'd rather be a Suzannah Wesley with 15 than a backstabber of my husband with 7.

This is troubling indeed. I'd rather hear what Ravenhill said of Tozer, if I could get the book, but maybe someone here could have the time to just quote some things.

I'd have given my right arm to have a father or husband that took GOD that seriously.
I had neither a father to raise me nor a husband that was 'there' but for a short time, when he was what I thought was 'on fire for GOD' and would spend hours in his den, with the Word and translating the Greek, I'd keep the home quiet and rejoiced to GOD that he was occupying himself with what GOD had called him to.

If what Greg posted is true, that Tozer only laid on his face from 9-12, I feel even more that Ada was wrong to speak of a great man of GOD behind his back in that way.

What if Gwen Wilkerson did anything like that to us now?

I would like to hear from Tozer's 7 children about their mother and their father, IF they are worthy to speak of either of them because they themselves have developed a walk with GOD and are not blaming their parents if they're not.

No good wife would speak about a Godly, much used by GOD husband in that way. Nothing she is quoted to have been said, should have been said - for "GOD's" sake and the ministry of Tozer's sake.

Yes, I agree, there needs to be that balance, but how many of you men are a Tozer, Wesley, Ravenhill and so forth.

No one can understand that a true prophet is IN His presence 24/7 and have seen more of HIS Glory than 99.8% of those who call themselves 'men of the Most High GOD'.

Would to GOD that men would seek The LORD in such a way that they could be a Tozer - and have a wife like Suzannah Wesley, who only cared for the Glory of GOD herself and was in HIS presence herself, 24/7. Dead to 'self' - all to HIS Glory!

I'd much rather have a father or husband who affects the world than any other type husband on earth.
Being without either, draws, or can draw a person more into GOD than having that which the less desirous of GOD want.

Paul spoke of the married not being able to serve GOD as much as those who are, because they need to mind the things of earth more - how to please their husband, etc..

The WORD of GOD gives "the balance".

The men of GOD of renown in our Bibles had wives and children, except Paul and a few others, but how much of themselves and their ministry time did they pour out for GOD?

Granted, there are men and women who have Abused Matt 19:29 just because they didn't Want to love their wives and children and there's another verse about "he who has a wife should live as if he hadn't" - True, more men would abuse that than see what Jesus meant, because Eph 5 is plain enough about how a man is to treat his wife - but by the same token - the balance is in accordance with the GOD given calling - as seen by the great men in our Bibles.

I'm only somewhat familiar with Tozer. A few of his books and a few of his messages - but I'd surely like to hear it from his 7 children.

I don't believe the children that I've seen, in this generation, that had great fathers, have come anywhere near the greatness of their fathers, no matter how much time their Dad's spent with them. So even hearing much from Tozer's children would still not negate the role of the mother in their lives nor their own personal responsiblity to become all that they could personally be, for the Love of Christ - just as some without mother or father have.

I still have more questions coming to mind about this about and from Tozer's wife and from his children, but I'll leave them for GOD to reveal, If He feels that it's necessary to know.

All of us should be on our faces before Him - praising, petitioning and listening, for as many hours per day as possible - or better yet - practice the presence of GOD 24/7 in that two-way communion - as much as possible - but some may have to give up some sleep or free-time in order to have more quiet times. If one watches TV at all - there's some wasted time right there, etc for entertainment or 'kicking back time'. But that desire to seek Him is either there or it isn't - and if it isn't - it needs to become a matter of serious prayer. Either we can stay up later, after the family has gone to bed or rise earlier, if we mean business with Him and want to be the best that we can be, Biblically, for Him and for our families.
Some neglect family unBiblically and some unBiblically neglect GOD for family. I agree - the balance is very very much needed.

Still feeling grieved over Ada's backstabbing her husband though and would appreciate to hear more that Ravenhill had to say about Mr. Tozer - if He desires for me to know or comfort this troubled feeling that this page of this thread has produced in me, that I'm not fully able to come to grips with or put into words.
Bottomline to me with this all is just Pray.

S
StarofG0D

Ada Tozer could not be a Suzannah Wesley - who spent so much time with her 15 children, raising them up in the LORD and would NEVER speak against her husband. Ada Tozer was Dead Wrong to say such things against her husband and their private lives. Sorry if some disagree. I would rather have a man like Tozer than a very attentive man to myself. I'd rather just use that time to get on my face as well. I'd rather be a Suzannah Wesley with 15 than a backstabber of my husband with 7. This is troubling indeed. I'd rather hear what Ravenhill said of Tozer, if I could get the book, but maybe someone here could have the time to just quote some things. I'd have given my right arm to have a father or husband that took GOD that seriously. I had neither a father to raise me nor a husband that was 'there' but for a short time, when he was what I thought was 'on fire for GOD' and would spend hours in his den, with the Word and translating the Greek, I'd keep the home quiet and rejoiced to GOD that he was occupying himself with what GOD had called him to. If what Greg posted is true, that Tozer only laid on his face from 9-12, I feel even more that Ada was wrong to speak of a great man of GOD behind his back in that way. What if Gwen Wilkerson did anything like that to us now? I would like to hear from Tozer's 7 children about their mother and their father, IF they are worthy to speak of either of them because they themselves have developed a walk with GOD and are not blaming their parents if they're not. No good wife would speak about a Godly, much used by GOD husband in that way. Nothing she is quoted to have been said, should have been said - for "GOD's" sake and the ministry of Tozer's sake.

Amen Sister JiG. I was utterly astonished as well when I heard some of what Ada said about her husband. Quite heartbreaking to say the least. It still bothers me..

J
JB1968

Amen, Jesus-is-GOD. Good thoughts.

R
RobertW

I would rather have a man like Tozer than a very attentive man to myself. I'd rather just use that time to get on my face as well. I'd rather be a Suzannah Wesley with 15 than a backstabber of my husband with 7.

As far as I know Ada was always respectful of her husband publicly. She was a godly woman and shared some of the same tendencies to be 'distant' with A.W. Tozer. But she did not hide her feelings later in life when asked how her life had changed since remarriage. I would recommend reading both biographies to get a feel for how things seemed to have been. Again, Tozer himself was careful not to glorify men so as to overstate their good qualities and cover over their shortcomings. I have to concur with much of what Dr. Brown wrote in his review.

We have to be balanced in this life and realize that God is pleased with us as we go about our daily lives living for Him. It is not necessary to bring to God offerings He has never required at our hands. We cannot improve on simple obedience. If we are walking in obedience we are living the, 'well done thou good and faithful servant' type of life.

S
StarofG0D

Robert W said..

That sounded very selfish in my ears when I first heard it. But after some years of reflection I realize that Tozer had a responsibility to get up and see about his family. To provide them with their needs emotionally. Women sometimes get bent out of shape when the husband is glues in front of the TV watching football for 6 hours Saturday and Sunday; is it scriptural or even sensical to spend so much time in study and prayer that life comes to a halt? Just asking. I know it sound very pious, but where is the precedent for it in scripture?

This is quoted in the new Ravenhill biography.

Leonard had a high view of marriage and deep commitment to their loving relationship. But like any husband, there were times he had to be reminded of this. One night after Martha and Len had prayed and prepared for bed, he lingered in the living room, continuing to pray. Shortly, he heard Martha call out, “Len, come on to bed.” He replied, “I will come when I finish.” But, Martha’s words were even more insistent, “Len, you also have a wife!” God spoke to him through those words. He got up from prayer, went to the bedroom and slipped into bed. He later said that sometimes the most spiritual thing a man can do is to go to bed with his wife!

Who knows the context of Ada's quote, but it's still bothersome to some degree..

S
sermonindex

These men who did these biographies - did they know Tozer and his household personally? I'm sorry if I don't know the answer to that question.
I believe Ravenhill may have known more.

All I see in Ada's remarks after her remarriage was derogatory about A.W. and unnecessary and very self-centered or 'self' focused and not focused on the affects his ministry has had on the many.

My concern is not - as I tried to get across in my post - was not to lift up a man but to find the great men in our Bibles who had a strong or prophetic call on their lives and whether they had wives and children also.

To look only at the Biblical way that these husbands and wives and children lived their lives and not any man outside of the Bible.

There is a vast difference in the lives of 'true' prophets or the Apostles than in the average Believer and their wives should respect that calling.

I would like to only examine the lives of those great men of our Bibles and then hear from someone who actually knew Tozer while he was alive.
Was this "Dr. Michael Brown" who wrote this - or another Brown and how about the other biographer?

Again, my only purpose is to line all of this up with Biblical relationships of great men of GOD with their families. The balance can only be found in His Word, is my desire - whether one is called to a great world-wide ministry and those who are not and those who think they are called to something greater than what GOD has called them to.

Thanks!

S
StarofG0D

All I see in Ada's remarks after her remarriage was derogatory about A.W. and unnecessary and very self-centered or 'self' focused and not focused on the affects his ministry has had on the many.

It seems very disrespectful and dishonouring.

With Leonard, I think I could relate a little, I have burnt food several times in the last few weeks, because of not focusing on the needs around me I think! :P

S
sermonindex

:)

I can relate to E. Elliot who hated kitchen work and GOD blessed her with Lars who loves cooking - :p (:


What part is it that you mean about "relating to Leonard". I haven't read his book or wherever you are referring to.

Bless you Sister!

S
StarofG0D

"Leonard had a high view of marriage and deep commitment to their loving relationship. But like any husband, there were times he had to be reminded of this. One night after Martha and Len had prayed and prepared for bed, he lingered in the living room, continuing to pray. Shortly, he heard Martha call out, “Len, come on to bed.” He replied, “I will come when I finish.” But, Martha’s words were even more insistent, “Len, you also have a wife!” God spoke to him through those words. He got up from prayer, went to the bedroom and slipped into bed. He later said that sometimes the most spiritual thing a man can do is to go to bed with his wife!"

This one. :)

S
sermonindex

Hi RobertW,

I am reminded of this:

Mat 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

I agree that God's children should be balanced and our love for God should translate into a love for people, starting right in our own home. Our love for God should translate into a love for people and a willingness to "get our hands dirty".

A777

S
sermonindex


Sweet! I read this before, I 'think' you posted it. :)

Very dear relationship they had, from what I've read.

Good wife - good husband - Good Home.

Thanks Sis!

S
sermonindex

I won't tar and feather Ada or throw stones. We are all fragile and sometimes the pressure gets to be too much for many us. I actually applaud her for hanging in there and raising the 7 kids. I think the Lord will commend her for that. She was left with a lot of responsibility and I wonder how many could actually have done what she did?

I know two separate couples whose marriage dissolved because the husband was so passive that he would not take care of his family or interact with them and the pressure on the wives became horrendous. In both cases the wife filed for divorce. It is sad when they are driven to this because I don't think that is a natural tendency of women and definitely not a spiritual tendency. God said, "her desire would be towards her husband".

In both cases the wife was trying to save what little bit of sanity she had left. She had to be the father, mother and wife including the breadwinner, the cook, the teacher of the children, etc, etc. One family had 2 kids, one had 3 kids.

So, I commend Ada who had 7 kids. You can't take one statement and say that she did not support her husband or that she was not a good wife. If we choose to live lonely lives and alienate ourselves from those that love us, there is not much anyone can do, not even your own wife.

I think she might be a hero of the faith.

A777

S
sermonindex


What could 'your' wife divulge about you and your marriage if you died tomorrow and would she be a hero for doing so?

ETA: especially if she found someone who treated her more attentively then you had and compared him to you or vice versa.

And what if you had affected the lives of probably near millions for nothing but Good all of your life.

S
sermonindex

I just need to ask: "who" was the focus with Ada?

Was it the millions that Tozer got onto the straight and narrow, as few men of our times could do or was it all about Ada?

Look at this quote from one of these 'biographers' - ""Aiden loved Jesus Christ, Leonard loves 'ME'."

emphasis mine.

Pro 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.

Makes me wonder about the hearts/motives of these biographers as well.

S
sermonindex


AW, probably would back her up in what she said. I have read many of his books and he does not seem to be one to deny the truth.

A777

S
sermonindex


You missed my last post because we posted almost at the same minute.


*Edited: Needed to remove one sentence because Anonymous777 removed a few sentences from his post; [as is becoming his habit]; that my one sentence was in reply to.
- Oh for "Truth in the inward parts".

S
sermonindex

A wise man once told me these two things when I was a new Father.

"Find out what you want your kids to be when they grow up and you become that man first."

He was talking about character not a job, skill or craft. That one floored me. It's a lifelong occupation to be like Jesus.

We want them to be like Jesus, so we must walk, talk and act like the Lord to them.

And you have all heard this one.

"More is caught than taught". It's not so much what you say, but who you are to them.

God bless you all,
A777

S
sermonindex


As I've posted twice now - I don't want cliches or men's opinions, I want to search HIS WORD and find out about the Great men of GOD that had major ministries of either prophet or apostle and find out how much time they spent with their wives and children.

That's all I've asked for, starting with my first post.

I don't want this "average guy" talk - I want to know how the big guys in the Word handled being married and with children, yet ministered to thousands or millions.

S
sermonindex


There is no such thing as "big guys".

Only Jesus is the BIG GUY.


A777

S
sermonindex


Again, I'm a woman and if my husband were truthfully and successfully leading that great number of people to a living and biblically sound understanding of Christ and breaking down the garbage in the Church - then I would be more than happy to do without him and be "a keeper of the home and be saved by child birth" - not forgetting what The Word says that women are supposed to do. And I'm not perfect neither - but to be married to a man of GOD that is doing a work that is not the par for my generation - I can stay home and mind the children as the Word of GOD says I should. I think that is what I see in His Word and what women like Suzannah Wesley did with her life with her, over a dozen children.

These women set precedents for other women, when they read these things from Ada.

And these biographers haven't done any of us any favors.

There are other ways to get the message to your average Joe about being an attentive loving husband and present father, than to tear into a man that affected so many by quoting the back-stabbing self-centered things that his wife said.

It's the example that these biographers are helping to set for "women" that is wrong. A women cannot be "Christ centered" and say that Tozer loved Jesus Christ but this new husband loves ME. Christ is not being put First in this and neither are the multiple thousands who were set in the right direction through Tozer's ministry - that GOD obviously annoited.

I don't particularly care to have that example of what a wife does after her husband is DEAD and can't give his side of their story. BAD example. Bad example to write about a man, when he and his closest friends are not here to defend him, or tell more about his wife. What type of wife she was.

Sigh!

S
sermonindex

We are not measured by our ministry.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Not saying this about AW, just about measuring men by their ministry.

A777

S
sermonindex


OK.

What a man says - he'll be tested on.

S
sermonindex

A777

There ARE big guys, but one of the characteristics of them is that they don't measure themselves as such. It is left to others and posterity sake to do so.

Ezek 24:16-18 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men. So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.


Gen 22:2-3 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Job 2:9-10 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
KJV

When I read these three accounts, I find Tozer's calling better prepared him to handle a burden such as Ezekiel's/Abraham's/Job's, than did Leonard's call.

Ascetics for asceticism's sake have nothing to be commended, but men who to all the rest of the world appear to be ascetic because God has their attention, are men who will be used of God in mightier ways than others.


OJ

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I think it is reminding a lot of us men about what is important.

Same way in the Bible.

God reveals a lot of warts regarding His servants. We all have "warts".

Maybe He does that so that we don't make bronze statues of each other.

We are all just unprofitable servants.

A777

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A777

She has a great point and a great stance on this, and the point can't be lost is that when God has a particular man's attention ALL else will be put aside at some time or other. If God has that man's attention for his whole life, though difficult for those around him, yet all else will be put aside, and he is not to be condemned for that.

The statement that Ada made is actually a terrible statement to have been said, and reported. It would be spoken in one of those times of weakness of flesh.

Ideally one might say that so and so loved Christ, but so and so made his love of Christ real to me... or something like that.

OJ

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Are these the words and a prayer of a hypocrite?


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=16500

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Thank you Brothers!

eta - hit reply before finished - I was reading page one and two again. Thank you Joe, Jim, and others who commented on the OP.

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I guess since we really don't their hearts there is not a whole bunch more to say that has not already been said.

I commend AW for his writings.

I commend is wife for raising the kids.

I hope neither of them lose any rewards and hope the same for all of us.

A777

L
Lkid

a problem here is that biographers, wives, friends, and the individual (AWTozer) all mix up the truth that we are simply talking about two PEOPLE who were imperfect. I very much appreciate Tozer's books and sermons, but he is just a man and is not my complete example though i have learned much from him. If Job was humbled by God's correction at the end of that book, I imagine Tozer wasn't as perfect as we dream. A funny thing is recently my friend told me he got blasted on a forum here for prepostering that Ravenhill might have some apologizing to people to do for some of his words in his messages. Let's not idolize men. God took Moses' body away so that the people wouldn't do that. Let's not do the same, no matter how greatly God used them (and I do appreciate both Ravenhill and Tozer). Reminds me of what Carter Conlon said at the memorial about how he felt that David might be looking over the balcony of heaven saying, come on, lets get back to reality here people.

We must be sold out to God whether our congregation is our wives and children or thousands.

As far as our children catching more than we teach them, this is true. But I was blessed to learn a while back that I am not the watermark for my children by God's grace. DL Moody and so many others come from a background that weren't even Godly at all. Praise God for His grace toward our children. But let us continue in grace for their sake.

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Good word, Lkid and Old_Joe.

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jimp

hi, i personnally know one of tozers daughters in law and she is very careful not to condemn a.w. but it is clear that she has heard from her ex husband(died)how much he was left alone.len said that prayer is preoccupation with my needs and praise is preoccupation with God answering prayer to fill my needs, while worship is preoccupation with God for who He is.we all have our strengths and weaknesses and we are all human and need Jesus.none are perfect,no not one.not even me. jimp

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Jim :)

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DesiJr

A couple of things to remember:

1.) Don't compare yourself to others and think that if you meet their standards or match their steps that you've somehow attained a satisfying prayer life. You can never spend enough time in prayer.

2.) You can literally prayer for hours on end without stopping or being repetitive when you are in relationship with the Church. I have found that if you take notecards and list elders, deacons their families, other ministry leaders, their families their jobs and responsibilities, plus your family, plus people your trying to reach out to for their Salvation, plus people that you are praying into the harvest field as missionaries or other types of laborers, plus churches in your community, your community leadership, state leadership, federal leadership and global events you can easily spend 3 to 4 hours a day in prayer. Plus prayer for your own life before God.

Now this is just structured prayer, not to mention prayers that you make that are unplanned as the Spirit reminds you of people or circumstances. Plus, time for thanksgiving, singing, meditating on Scriptures and the Spirit brings them to mind.

Now, regardless if Tozer or Ravenhill spent 15 hours a day or more praying or if you spend 15 minutes or more a day praying, the point isn't how long your praying, it's what your praying about. Greatest commandments: Love God and Love eachother. With this command, we have lots to cry out for.

Now, by no means do I want to put up a front and make anyone believe that this is my daily routine, if that was the case, I'd never leave the house and serve God practically. But I just wanted to point out how there are always many, many things to pray and spend hours upon hours with God about.

Blessings,

Desi

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sermonindex

I think we should give Tozer the last word here. From the chapter "The Saint must walk alone" in his book "Man, the Dwelling Place of God"

And yes, it can even (often especially) happen with your own wife and children....

'The truly spiritual man is indeed something of an oddity. He lives not for himself but to promote the interests of Another. He seeks to persuade people to give all to his Lord and asks no portion or share for himself. He delights not to be honored but to see his Saviour glorified in the eyes of men. His joy is to see his Lord promoted and himself neglected. He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and overserious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens. He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces, and finding few or none he, like Mary of old, keeps these things in his heart.'

'It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else. He learns in inner solitude what he could not have learned in the crowd that Christ is All in All, that He is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, that in Him we have and possess life's summum bonum.'


OJ

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jimp

hi, God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth so i believe we should listen at least twice as much than we talk.remember God was the still small voice. abram heard that voice, noah heard that voice,moses heard that voice etc. anyone in the bible who had faith heard that voice including saul of tarsus.jimp

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Oracio


Very intersting thread, much to ponder and pray about. Having a wife and two toddlers I can identify with the struggle to find the right balance in ministry and family time.

Old_Joe quoted Tozer,

'The truly spiritual man is indeed something of an oddity. He lives not for himself but to promote the interests of Another. He seeks to persuade people to give all to his Lord and asks no portion or share for himself. He delights not to be honored but to see his Saviour glorified in the eyes of men. His joy is to see his Lord promoted and himself neglected. He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and overserious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens. He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces, and finding few or none he, like Mary of old, keeps these things in his heart.

'It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else. He learns in inner solitude what he could not have learned in the crowd that Christ is All in All, that He is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, that in Him we have and possess life's summum bonum.'

To me those quotes do sound biblical in a big way and I know there is at least much truth in them. However, as RobertW pointed out, I wonder whether Tozer may have been too secluded from people around him. I have not read any biography of his but I'm curious. I wonder if he followed the Lord's example of mingling with multitudes and being approachable. I wonder if he had a reputation for being a "friend of sinners", eating and drinking with them and ministering to them, not just in the church building but outside where the people are, like Jesus, our best example. I don't want to prematurely judge him because he may very well have been that kind of minister of the gospel. I'm just curious. I know that too many ministers, especially senior pastors seclude themselves too much from the people around them, including their families. They take the easy way out and avoid face to face ministry and all the pain that goes with that. Even the prophets in the OT mingled on the streets with the people and endeavored to minister to them. Again, I don't want to jump to conclusions about Tozer but I'm curious. So if anyone has info on that it would be appreciated.

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sermonindex

Excerpts -

When he was 15 years old, Tozer's family moved to Akron, Ohio. One afternoon as he walked home from his job at Goodyear, he overheard a street preacher say, "If you don't know how to be saved . . . just call on God." When he got home, he climbed the narrow stairs to the attic where, heeding the preacher's advice, Tozer was launched into a lifelong pursuit of God.

In 1919, without formal education, Tozer was called to pastor a small storefront church in Nutter Fort, West Virginia. That humble beginning thrust him and his new wife Ada Cecelia Pfautz, into a 44-year ministry with The Christian and Missionary Alliance.
Thirty-one of those years were spent at Chicago's Southside Alliance Church. The congregation, captivated by Tozer's preaching, grew from 80 to 800.

In 1950 Tozer was elected editor of the Alliance Weekly now called Alliance Life. The circulation doubled almost immediately. In the first editorial dated June 3, 1950, he set the tone: "It will cost something to walk slow in the parade of the ages while excited men of time rush about confusing motion with progress. But it will pay in the long run and the true Christian is not much interested in anything short of that."

Tozer's forte was his prayer life which often found him walking the aisles of a sanctuary or lying face down on the floor. He noted, "As a man prays, so is he." To him the worship of God was paramount in his life and ministry. "His preaching as well as his writings were but extensions of his prayer life," comments Tozer biographer James L. Snyder. An earlier biographer noted, "He spent more time on his knees than at his desk."

Tozer's love for words also pervaded his family life. He quizzed his children on what they read and made up bedtime stories for them. "The thing I remember most about my father," reflects his daughter Rebecca, "was those marvelous stories he would tell."

Son Wendell, one of six boys born before the arrival of Rebecca, remembers that, "We all would rather be treated to the lilac switch by our mother than to have a talking-to by our dad."

Tozer's final years of ministry were spent at Avenue Road Church in Toronto, Canada. On May 12, 1963, his earthly pursuit of God ended when he died of a heart attack at age 66. In a small cemetery in Akron, Ohio, his tombstone bears this simple epitaph: "A Man of God."

Some wonder why Tozer's writings are as fresh today as when he was alive. It is because, as one friend commented, "He left the superficial, the obvious and the trivial for others to toss around. . . . [His] books reach deep into the heart."

His humor, written and spoken, has been compared to that of Will Rogers--honest and homespun. Congregations could one moment be swept by gales of laughter and the next sit in a holy hush.

http://articles.ochristian.com/article150.shtml


Excerpt: From a fan of both Tozer & Dorsett -

Tozer pastored briefly in several poor churches in West Virginia and Ohio before ultimately receiving a call to Southside Alliance Church in Chicago where he stayed for most of his life. He didn’t like to drive, so his family stayed close to the church for years, even after the humble wooden church was replaced with a far grander building.
Dorsett ably recalls Tozer’s rise within the C&MA as the leaders of that group rapidly understood they had a winner on their hands. Or more like a blaze. For it seemed that wherever Tozer went, people caught fire. He went on to be a radio preacher on WMBI, the voice of Moody Bible Institute, and eventually garnered a nationwide audience.
In 1960, Tozer accepted a call to do nothing but preach at Avenue Road Church in Toronto, serving for three years before succumbing to a heart attack 45 years ago on May 12, 1963.

Tozer was a very staunch pro-American patriot and was deeply affected by World War II, maintaining a special admiration and care for soldiers and their families.

Fearing that he’d succumb to too many human compliments, Tozer would avoid greeting his congregation at the door of the church after services, preferring to visit his church’s nursery and talk with young parents.

Family devotion times at the Tozer household appear to have been just as difficult to schedule and pull off as they are in some of our homes.

Students, especially at Wheaton College, Moody Bible Institute, and later at his church in Toronto, adored Tozer and his messages. Tozer returned that affection, maintaining a lifelong soft spot for young people.

Tozer wrote one of his most famous works, The Pursuit of God, in one day while traveling by train to speak at another church.

Despite not having much education beyond fourteen years, Tozer devoured as many books as he could read, electing to read widely on many topics, particularly writings of pre-Reformation Christians who had been largely ignored by Protestants of his time. Tozer himself never attended college or went to seminary. He routinely cautioned potential pastors about problems with the seminary system.

Tozer spent hours in prayer and study in his office at the church, often prostrate on the floor. He even wore a specially tailored pair of pants that allowed him to pray longer while kneeling.

For years, D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones tried (unsuccessfully) to get Tozer to come to London to preach at his church.

Tozer defined workaholism, somehow managing to squeeze life enough for two people into one, yet when not traveling always made it home for the family dinner.

Tozer later regretted some of the harsh statements he made about movies with Christian themes.

While "A Passion for God" is a deeply needed book on Tozer, I finished it only to have this wave of discontent wash over me. When the forwards, appendices, and index are removed, this book is a scant 150 pages. Because Dorsett revisits some issues repeatedly (Ada Tozer’s longing for a more intimate relationship with a man much more devoted to God than to his wife, for instance), each revisit adds little to what was already said, diluting the fullness of the material even more.

Sadly, the one truth I hoped would be revealed in this biography never seemed to gel for me: What made Tozer’s spiritual journey so profoundly different from all the other evangelical preachers of his time? Nor did I get a good feel for the one defining aspect of Tozer’s life that set him well apart from his contemporaries: his love for the mystic writers of Christianity. How and why did he latch onto them when they were largely ignored by others?
Dorsett also mentions that in later years Tozer received some critiques for being overly ecumenical, though he devotes only a page or so to this unusual fact about Tozer. This is definitely an underdeveloped thought considering Tozer railed against the increasing worldliness and liberalism he saw steeling away the heart and soul of Evangelicalism. In what may have been an overdevelopment, Dorsett devotes several pages to racial issues in Chicago toward the latter part of Tozer’s ministry there. In truth, Tozer did not have much to say on the issue other than he didn’t want to ignore reaching out to the black community of the time, nor did he like some of the contention, both from whites in his church and blacks in the surrounding neighborhood, that was forcing his congregation to relocate.

Leonard Ravenhill discussed his friendship with Tozer in a few teaching tapes I’ve heard of his, so I was surprised that nothing came of this in the book, especially since I know that Dorsett likes Ravenhill, too. Dorsett also noted that Tozer spoke at several Keswick conferences, though this is not developed at all. I would have liked to have known more about Tozer’s affiliations with some of the trends and schools of thought of the time.

http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/05/review-a-passion-for-god-the-spiritual-journey-of-a-w-tozer.html

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mguldner

First off What in blue blazes happened in this thread? about 10 to 12 hours ago when I was on it had like 14 comments log on and find 55? I read through some of the post and saw concern about if Tozer wasn't very involved with his family life or something to that effect, that he was secluded from his family and friends.

I would say its quite obvious Tozer did act as a Godly Husband and did likely help with his family. How do I know? Because had He not his wife would likely be terribly upset with him and his prayers would have been hindered.

"7You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered." 1 Peter 3:7

It would be wise to assume that Brother Tozer did find a balance that we should also seek seeing that many of His prayers did infact get answered. I listened to a Paris Reidhead sermon and in it he mentions how we should operate and work speaking on the little things. Paraphrased He said when a man becomes a husband and father that is his ministry, doing the dishes for your family can be a service to the Lord and your family. Painting a room, taking out the trash, etc can all be done in Service to God.

As a fairly new dad I seek to find the balance with my two toddlers and have started letting them join me in my time of prayer and worship. My wife graciously bought me a keyboard for my birthday but really its not mine but everyone that wants to play it including my young ones. being a musician it excites my heart to see them sing Jesus Loves Me and try and push some keys down on a piano or to strum one of my guitars as we sing about Jesus. Or driving in the car listening to Christian radio and hearing my little boy sing along to Holy is the Lord.

I would image Tozer knew something of the same thing, to train up a child means to take them along side of you and let them experience what you experience and let them know what you have learned and know.

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Thank you Brother Matthew.

The second link in my last post was from an admirer of Dorsett because he was one of his students and even he said in that over-view of Dorsett's book that too much time was spent repeating the words of Ada.

If one's spouse doesn't share an equal zeal or passion for the work of GOD or the calling, then it can be difficult for the husband and wife to see eye to eye. Ada's comment about her husband was very revealing.

If Tozer loved "young people" - "service men" - "the black people of Chicago" - the "nursery filled with babies and their parents" - and so much more written in that over-view - I wonder why anyone would take the liberties to write about Tozer's personal home life, when Tozer probably wouldn't have shared a word about any problems with Ada or either of their families (his or hers).
I've had in-laws before, as some others have, and only GOD knows what went on in that home and between them all - but the fruit of Tozer's work can be found anywhere. Dorsett opened up a can of worms and had a reason to focus so much on what may have been a very serious and private problem between Mr. & Mrs. Tozer and to write a book in 2008 about a man who died in 1963 that attempts to defame him, to me is just odd, to say the least.

There are other biographers on Tozer that are worth reading.

Thanks again for your sound input.

R
RobertW

Oracio's: To me those quotes do sound biblical in a big way and I know there is at least much truth in them. However, as RobertW pointed out, I wonder whether Tozer may have been too secluded from people around him.

To answer the question, if the biographers and their sources are to be believed Tozer never allowed anyone close to him, including his wife and children. He rarely visited family and seemed to loathe the time when they visited him. Truly I am almost photoshopping the portrait of Tozer myself by leaving out of this thread many things that trouble me. So even as some of these points have served as a lightening rod and call to arms in Tozer's defense, I have a totally different perspective. All the comments meant to whitewash the 'warts' have only served to show me the value of honesty among the sources. Why? They can't all be wrong and as I read I see a tension between wanting to honor a great man and yet a desire to be honest as a writer. We have this information, now what will you do with it? It's on the table for our consideration.

But really this thread is asking what Tozer was doing in his prayer room, with a view to emulating the behavior. Some answers have been given as to timing and posture, but really only God knows what he was doing and why. Again, I have said before and so say I again, I have no intention of imitating Tozer's pattern of life. I must look to the scriptures and let God lead me. I will seek to follow the example of Jesus who got alone to pray and taught us the basics of what to pray. As a young believer I often fell in the trap of seeking a mystical experience in God as I had been taught through the biographies of people like Kathrine Kuhlman, the writings of Benny Hinn and others that are said to spend hours and hours in prayer. Their desire for mysticism in time woke me up and I forsook their way. Their is a sharp difference between praying and lying in a mystical state. I know from personal experience.

The old timers used to talk about 'the spirit of prayer.' I have watched on video as Leonard Ravenhill has conducted prayer meetings and has been critical and somewhat harsh of people praying mutter, mutter, etc. That was a severe turn off to me. If a person is praying let them alone. I have been in prayer meetings that lasted for more than 6 hours and it seems like 30 minutes as we seemed to pass from time into eternity. I have been in meetings where the spirit of prayer came upon us and young teenagers that were in rebellion forsook themselves and went full bore after God as the sight of God moving in prayer. You have to crawl before you can walk and when people are earnest we need to come alongside and lovingly help and not get short with them.

The fruit of true prayer is the life of Jesus Christ radiating from a person. And no man, when he hath lighted a lamp, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but putteth it on a stand, that they that enter in may see the light. (Luke 8) Some of the greatest prayers are as short as saying, "God help me!' It was Eli in the temple that accused Hannah of being drunk as she was speaking in her heart; only her lips moved, and her voice was not heard. We have to be careful. The important thing about prayer is not that we spend hours and hours, or that some person would critique our prayers, but that we pray until we touch God. Eli tried in vain to measure this woman's spirituality by watching her pray and suffered major fail. In fact, God fired Eli and put his replacement into the womb of the woman he mocked. Indeed, we have to be very careful. And if perchance the spirit of prayer would come upon us and we should pray for hours on end it will not be a grind, but we be as if we passed into eternity as time passes by.

I have been in prayer meetings that seemed as dead as a hammer. Just being honest. I have been in meetings where folk were trying to be mystical and seek an experience of some kind, even bordering on a seance or something. But I have been in prayer meetings and in personal prayer when God lifted us on eagles wings (as it were) and we began to pray in the Spirit as the Lord directed. James Robison in his classic, 'Thank God I'm Free' talks about a prayer meeting in which he came into it bound with lustful thoughts. He was all formal like and knew nothing of sincere prayer. He was asked to sit in a chair in the middle of a room in a hotel while the man of God commenced to praying. The man knew how to touch God. It wasn't pretty. But the result was that James was set free from a lust that nearly drove him to suicide. I have been in those type of meetings. Don't know if they will ever be used as 'how-to' books on prayer, but I have seen lives changed. We touched God and prayed in faith. We were reckless. No formalities. No desire to impress anyone. We were just desperate for God to come.

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Sad epitaph.

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Robert, thanks for your testimony here.

The man knew how to touch God. It wasn't pretty. But the result was that James was set free from a lust that nearly drove him to suicide. I have been in those type of meetings. Don't know if they will ever be used as 'how-to' books on prayer, but I have seen lives changed. We touched God and prayed in faith. We were reckless. No formalities. No desire to impress anyone. We were just desperate for God to come.
Amen.

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sermonindex

The sad epitaph is for A.W. Tozer here on SermonIndex.

Out with Tozer - in with TBN's James Robison and the teachings that go with him.
Very surprised, yet shouldn't be; knowing very well the days we're living in.


Edit: Robert, I failed to add that you also knocked down Ravenhill as well and raised yourself above even him. That part is maybe even harder to believe, seeing that his is the featured sermon presently.
And by raising Robison, you've put your seal on a very risky demonology teaching that can truly cause a vulnerable person to stumble.


The OP asked - What was Tozer doing in there?

Maybe he was praying-travailing for his marriage and his children, besides his church people, etc..

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jimp

hi, we know the man of God who prayed for james was milton green, God called him zero for apart from God he was ;like me,a zero. please do not take offense to the truth that we are all zeros without God. i was a friend if len ravenhill and he was far from perfect himself.we who have been used of God must realize that God is the annointed one and we are conduits or hoses at best of that annointing.if you see the pieta you are amazed at its beauty and the greatness of michaelangelo but you dont even think of the tools he used.that is the way with us;tools in the hands of a great God.jimp

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mguldner

Thanks for that jimp, it actually really encouraged me. I have actually struggled with the Anointed thing. Questions and doubts of am I anointed? is my work anointed, etc. But your right Christ is the Anointed ONE and its only in Him does anything we do become Anointed. I hardly take offense to being a zero without Christ something we should all learn early and never forget.

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sermonindex


Brothers, it's not a question of any of them or any of us being "perfect" - it's who's put down that are listed here as Sermons for us to hear and who is raised up, that is more questionable than them both, by a very long shot.

This is just a very sad day.

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RobertW

Out with Tozer - in with TBN's James Robison and the teachings that go with him.
Very surprised, yet shouldn't be; knowing very well the days we're living in.

I would ask you to refrain from characterizing my comments in this way. I have exalted no one over anyone else. I have expanded the context of the conversation with a view to edification and encouragement.

I failed to add that you also knocked down Ravenhill as well and raised yourself above even him. That part is maybe even harder to believe, seeing that his is the featured sermon presently.

This comment is immoderate and completely uncalled for. I have stated my comment in the past and stand by it. If people want to pray they don't need editors. They can talk to God without interference. I am not exalting me or diminishing him, it is my view of the behavior.

And by raising Robison, you've put your seal on a very risky demonology teaching that can truly cause a vulnerable person to stumble.

That is your opinion. I don't share it. James' testimony is believable, for me. He is willing to be transparent and admit to weakness. Although I have met him, I do not know him personally. His testimony is that the prayer was heard and he found freedom.

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RobertW

Brothers, it's not a question of any of them or any of us being "perfect" - it's who's put down that are listed here as Sermons for us to hear and who is raised up, that is more questionable than them both, by a very long shot.

It was Tozer that believed that men ought to be remembered 'warts and all'. This is how men and women are depicted in scripture. God does not gloss over imperfections. He allows the sum total of their lives to teach us; in some ways to emulate behavior and in others to refrain from it. This is how we 'prove all things and hold fast to that which is good.' What is being brought into question here is, is there a such thing as taking prayer, study and even ministry too far so that the end result becomes counter productive to the emulation of Jesus Christ? I think the answer is yes. Does this men we should stop praying, even for hours if necessary? No. We need to strive to walk out the life of Jesus Christ in this life as common foot soldiers. That's what we need today, IMHO.

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sermonindex

Brother, your post on this previous page was indeed very hard on Tozer with your saying that there's so much more you 'could' post, instead of photoshopping and you did put down Ravenhill. I don't know why your exibiting this anger now, when your words against them are easy enough to read.

By putting both Ravenhill and Tozer down and then lifting up Robison's experience - that isn't "characterizing your comments". That's how your post is reading. That you know how to pray but these men didn't.

As far as Robison's "deliverance" - this was brought up by Anonymous777 as him having demon(s) being 'cast out' of him.
I do not buy into that belief of Christians having demons 'in' them and find that to be a main excuse for some people to continue to sin, by blaming their own lusts on an indwelling demon - as was discussed at length not long ago here.

I'm not posting in anger - I just pray you read the tone and contents of your post a second time - to see how it may read to anyone who has come here to hear these men's featured sermons and messages.

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sermonindex

The thing that has always blessed me about Milton Green is that if you needed prayer he would not ask you what your theology was before you prayed. When someone was asking for help, that was the farthest thing from his mind.

It is refreshing to see a company of brethren on this site that appreciate and confirm Milt's ministry to the hurting.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22845&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=1

A777

R
RobertW


Brother, your post on this previous page was indeed very hard on Tozer with your saying that there's so much more you 'could' post, instead of photoshopping and you did put down Ravenhill. I don't know why your exibiting this anger now, when your words against them are easy enough to read.

This is another mischaracterization. You are accusing me of being angry and I am not angry in the least. This is my settled view of these things after much sincere contemplation. I am not shooting from the hip. I did not put down Ravenhill, I called attention to how he has handled prayer meetings in videos readily available to anyone to watch and come to their own conclusions. It has not tarnished my appreciation for him as a man of God, it has brought context to how I have in the past viewed the man.

As far as Robison's "deliverance" - this was brought up by Anonymous777 as him having demon(s) being 'cast out' of him.

Nowhere have I ever read that James had 'demons cast out of him.' It is my understanding that he was suffering demonic oppression, which is a very different thing.

I'm not posting in anger - I just pray you read the tone and contents of your post a second time - to see how it may read to anyone who has come here to hear these men's featured sermons and messages.

I typically reread what I have written several times to make sure with the best of my ability that they are not misconstrued. I have been on this site for a very long time and we have discussed men of God on this sites on a number of occasions. This thread is only different in your added insistence to inflame the thing. This is a discussion forum. If we can't be honest in our discussions what is the point?


S
sermonindex

I just said what James Robison said (I have the DVD), I quoted him, but I don't think I was quoted correctly.

S
sermonindex

anonymous, I downloaded that 15 page thread if you need for me to quote you and our discussion.

I download threads that are heated because of your tendency to totally change your posts as you have on pg 4 of this thread twice.

__________________________________________________

Robert, Tozer is dead. How can he "face his accusers" if the poor man is in Heaven.

That's the only reason I felt this was wrong to write these things about him by these biographers many decades after his passing. He can't tell us what was going on with his wife and family etc.

In that one post where I quoted a student of the biographer that was a fan of not only his professor, the biographer, but was also a strong admirer of Tozer - he posted all the good that Tozer had done for people - which showed that he did not seclude himself from everyone, as he's being portrayed as having done. Even Martin Lloyd-Jones wanted him to speak at his church.

Some marriages are strained for reasons no one knows unless they can speak to Both parties. Even with the in-laws involved. How can we judge this fairly, without the man being here to answer the accusations?
The enomormous amount of books he's written and sermons offered here for us are being maligned by biographers who haven't heard it staight from Tozer's mouth about why he said he was "lonely". We only have the words of others to tear down the man.

I wouldn't wish that on any dead person - nonetheless one of our own.

I hope you can understand at least that much.

S
sermonindex

Here is my exact quote.

"What about James Robison's confession in Christianity Today? Milt Green ministered deliverance to him. He had a strong spirit of lust that he said felt like a vise grip on his head."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=38574&post_id=281840&viewmode=thread&order=0#281840

Also, my apologies to the moderators, I just found out about the rules governing the editing of posts.

A777

S
sermonindex

And see my reply to that post as well.

You open that post with I believe that --- "that just because they are "Spirit-Filled", the Holy Spirit will take over and keep that spirit of an unclean devil from coming into them and making a nice home for itself."


Coming "into" them and "making a nice home for itself"... that was what I was replying to in that post. Your belief that a Spirit filled Christian can have demons come 'into' them and make a home. You never retracted "possession" of Christians on that thread and that leaves your wording of what Milt Green did for Robison to be interpreted in the light of your beliefs that Spirit filled Christians can have "spirits of lust" etc "in" them.
The wording doesn't make it sound any different, because of your use of the word "deliverance" for these people with spirits 'in' them. That's why that debate went on as long as it did. It was a very difficult thread.


ETA: Also 777, that was one of the posts that you changed as well - if you notice my reply about "maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't" because I was quoting you there. Oh my.

R
RobertW

I hope you can understand at least that much.

I think I understand what you mean. I don't believe Tozer has any accusers here. The biographers, as I have stated, tried to focus on the greatness of the man while being constrained to tell the whole story. This is what Tozer's position was as well. I think this is healthy. Many of us have read a lot of biographies and we see this type of thing all the time. If we don't see something that may be of a surprise, some of us will look for another source to make sure were getting the whole truth. If all sources concur on a thing, I think it may well be true. It's my approach and probably a common one.

Personally, I find the lives of men and women of God to be very fascinating and enlightening. I also like reading about secular leaders, etc. I am not offended when something comes out about a person that may trouble me. It may slightly alter the way I perceived them, but rarely does it affect my appreciation for them and their contribution to the churches of God or society. I can have this conversation and listen to a Tozer message at the same time. To me, there is no contradiction. This is not a 'slam' on Tozer or Ravenhill, it is a challenge to certain of their ways.

When I'm dead and gone and someone tells about my life (though it would never be published) I want it to be a balanced point of view. I am not a hero. I am not a comic book figure. I want people to know that. I want them to know I didn't get everything right- to sift though and see what glorified God and edified the churches of God and if there be anything useful- to God be the glory. I would not want to be emulated in areas of sin or excess. We all have to be what God called us to be. I cannot be Ravenhill or Tozer. I have to be me. I cannot look to other great men and try to clone myself. I have to be me. To be me I have to do what God is calling me to do. I cannot do that if I follow in the steps of Tozer or Ravenhill that was their walk with God. Ravenhill is not Tozer and Tozer is not Billy Sunday or Charles Finney. But I can follow in the steps of Christ and allow Him to make me His vessel. I need to be that foot soldier ever ready to do what I'm told.

S
sermonindex

I will be dealing with this more thoroughly in the Possess The Land thread.

God bless,
A777

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sermonindex

Brother Robert, I suppose the quote from his wife after he died was most troubling. I just wish we had Tozer's version of why she wasn't happy with him. It said he never missed dinner with his family. There's just too many blanks.

Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate it.

R
RobertW

Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate it.

No problem at all. I usually find that if we keep talking through things we come to an understanding and God is glorified. :-)

I suppose the quote from his wife after he died was most troubling.

I wholly agree. Being aware of this quote I have come to reckon with it by making sure that in my zeal for God I don't miss opportunities to minister at home to the variegated needs of family. I have been guilty of this. This is not to say I place family over God, but just trying to be sensitive to God and not carried away with extremes. I still don't like the quote though, but as the old timers sometimes said 'there it is'. God Bless

S
sermonindex

Also, my apologies to the moderators, I just found out about the rules governing the editing of posts.

A777


"Speaking the truth in love."

I've brought it to your attention on a number of occasions, besides the PMs.

It's not about "editing", as you know. It been about completely changing a post after the page changed.
I would have never brought this forward if it were just about changing or fixing up a few words. We all sometimes see our post's errors after hitting reply and make the needed corrections. And add the word "edit" or "eta" only if it's a change or something more is added, but not to change entire posts.

'Truth in the inward parts' is part of fearing the LORD.
Col 3:9


With my prayers and His love.

S
sermonindex


Agape Love


"Love," said Meister Eckhart, "is the will to, the intention." By that definition, it is possible to obey the divine command to love our neighbor. We may not in a thousand years be able to feel a surge of emotion toward certain "neighbors," but we can go before God and solemnly will to love them, and the love will come. By prayer and an application of the inworking power of God, we may set our faces to will the good of our neighbor and not his evil all the days of our lives, and that is love. The emotion may follow, or there may be no appreciable change in our feelings toward him, but the intention is what matters. We will his peace and prosperity and put ourselves at his disposal to help him in every way possible, even to the laying down of our lives for his sake.
Love, then, is a principle of good will and is to a large extent under our control. That it can be fanned into a blazing fire is not denied here. Certainly God's love for us has a mighty charge of feeling in it, but beneath it all is a set principle that wills our peace. Probably the love of God for mankind was never more beautifully stated than by the angel at the birth of Christ: "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to man on whom his favor rests."


- Tozer

L
Lkid

What was Tozer doing in there?

From David Wilkerson's memorial (I think it was from one of his brothers or sons): "Down on the floor, with his nose pressed against that dim mirror to see Him" (1 Cor 13:12). I loved that! I thought he was going to say with his nose pressed against that old carpet or hard floor, but he said 'that dim mirror'. Wonderful!

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sermonindex

Hi RobertW,

Since aspersions are being cast upon me publicly by JiG, I will have to answer them, publicly. Indeed, I did just find out about editing of posts. JiG did not mention to the forum that her 2 posts to me were within a minute of each other. That might seem important (to make public) I would think, otherwise one might believe that I was warned twice on separate occasions. Shortly after her two immediate posts I came online and apologized to you and the other moderators.

She may have warned me in some of her other posts, but if she did I did not see them. I guess I feel like she is stalking me in my posts on this forum and very angry so I don't read much of her posts as I believe they will just be combative towards me and I desire to walk in peace. That is probably why I missed any warnings that she speaks of.

A777

G
Giggles

I apologize for not reading this lengthy thread before replying, but my response is to the OP anyway. Love the heart and question! Your post reads very genuine and blessed me just to read it.

J
jimp

hi, who cares whos little bitty toes have been stepped on, the question was what was tozer doing in there? it is obvious that we have brought out that he was human as we are with his own 'demons'... that answers our question... he was on his face before the Lord making himself available to hear from God...as imperfect as he was... and he heard...his writings are from the throne.jimp

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sermonindex

I don't stalk or lie or falsely accuse, but you are lying. [sorry you other guys]
Besides the link you gave to that demonology post that you changed back then - this thread and the incident the other night when you knew what you were doing and that I was watching and that I kept answering you within the same post as you repeatedly changed yours - remember "Oy"?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38640&forum=34&start=70&79

How many threads does that make now?
End of topic for me.
You should have excepted or expected the reason 'why' I had to finally bring it up publically. Wish you had.

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sermonindex

Dear Sister Jig,

May the Lord bless you abundantly above all you can ask or think. I have absolutely nothing against you whatsoever and will pray for the Lord to bless you spiritually, physically, emotionally and mentally. May He bless your whole man and spirit. Amen.

A777

S
sermonindex

Thank you. I left my heart's prayer for you on the previous page.
__________________________________________________________

"Praying Till We PRAY"

Dr. Moody Stuart, a great praying man of a past generation, once drew up a set of rules to guide him in his prayers. Among these rules is this one: "Pray till you pray." The difference between praying till you quit and praying till you pray is illustrated by the American evangelist John Wesley Lee. He often likened a eason of prayer to a church service, and insisted that many of us close the meeting before the service is over. He confessed that once he arose too soon from a prayer session and started down the street to take care of some pressing business. He had only gone a short distance when an inner voice reproached him. "Son," the voice seemed to say, "did you not pronounce the benediction before the meeting was ended?" He understood, and at once hurried back to the place of prayer where he tarried till the burden lifted and the blessing came down.

The habit of breaking off our prayers before we have truly prayed is as common as it is unfortunate. Often the last ten minutes may mean more to us than the first half hour, because we must spend a long time getting into the proper mood to pray effectively. We may need to struggle with our thoughts to draw them in from where they have been scattered through the multitude of distractions that result from the task of living in a disordered world.

Here, as elsewhere in spiritual matters, we must be sure to distinguish the ideal from the real. Ideally we should be living moment-by-moment in a state of such perfect union with God that no special preparation is necessary. But actually there are few who can honestly say that this is their experience. Candor will compel most of us to admit that we often experience a struggle before we can escape from the emotional alienation and sense of unreality that sometimes settle over us as a sort of prevailing mood.

Whatever a dreamy idealism may say, we are forced to deal with things down on the level of practical reality. If when we come to prayer our hearts feel dull and unspiritual, we should not try to argue ourselves out of it. Rather, we should admit it frankly and pray our way
through. Some Christians smile at the thought of "praying through," but something of the same idea is found in the writings of practically every great praying saint from Daniel to the present day. We cannot afford to stop praying till we have actually prayed.


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3

S
sermonindex

I did read that post JiG, :-) thank you very much.

To God be the glory.

A777

H
hmmhmm

Dr. Tozer told me as a mature man in his sixties that there where times when he lay on the rug for an hour, two hours, three hours, four hours and never uttered a word of prayer, and never uttered a word of praise. He said, "I'm lost in adoration, I see Him in His glory, in His majesty, in His beauty. I can hear those holy beings crying, 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord.'" And he said, "I'm silent in adoration before Him. I had no language, it is beggered." And he had a vocabulary as good as any man I know, and he had read more of the mystics, I think, than any man I know, and he had some of the closest encounters to God of any man I know.

Leonard Ravenhill

J
JB1968

Deeper, Deeper

1) Deeper, deeper in the love of Jesus
Daily let me go;
Higher, higher in the school of wisdom,
More of grace to know.

Refrain

O deeper yet, I pray,
And higher every day,
And wiser, blessed Lord,
In Thy precious, holy Word.

2) Deeper, deeper, blessed Holy Spirit,
Take me deeper still,
Till my life is wholly lost in Jesus,
And His perfect will.

Refrain

3) Deeper, deeper! though it cost hard trials,
Deeper let me go!
Rooted in the holy love of Jesus,
Let me fruitful grow.

Refrain

4) Deeper, higher, every day in Jesus,
Till all conflict past,
Finds me conqueror, and in His own image
Perfected at last.

Refrain

5) Deeper, deeper in the faith of Jesus,
Holy faith and true;
In His power and soul exulting wisdom
Let me peace pursue.

Refrain

Charles Price Jones, 1900

P
Pandarus

Wow, this thread has gone on a major tangent. I won't get involved in all that bickering except to say, "lighten up people!"

But truly, thanks to all those who have replied with good feedback relevant to the question. I want to know how to "be" with God in our times together. I did hear about the silent thing, but cannot keep my mind from drifting when I do that.

Truly, I find the pursuit of God that Tozer encouraged us on to be the ultimate purpose of my life.

And I am blessed that he has revealed that to me.

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