Joplin , MO, takes a big hit by a tornado

Keeping the dear people in prayer this evening. Lots of friends in Joplin.

Isn't Joplin a major center for entertainment in the Midwest? I find it interesting that the Lord has hit several major entertainment centers in the US over the past several years. I was just wondering where would hit next and now I know.

In light of that, I would recommend any who are stuck in fear by these things to listen to part 5 of America's Last Call by David Wilkerson.

Has twayneb (Travis) checked in?

So because Joplin is a "hub" of entertainment and Pentecostalism...are you suggesting that this devastation is the handiwork of God?

There is a video on youtube called:

First Person video of Joplin MO tornado 5/22/11

It is an excellent example of calling upon the name of the LORD in a crisis situation.

What a powerful video, as I watched it the phrase "Whatever can be shaken, will be shaken" just kept going through my mind.

This is just my own opinion on the tornadoes that hit Joplin and Minnesota yesterday. This does not have anything to do with Joplin being a main hub of Pentecostalism, but I believe it has everything to do with our leaders putting pressure on Israel to divide up the land.

Here are a few examples of tornadoes that occured within a few days of the U.S. trying to pressure Israel into dividing up their land with the Palestinaians.

"On April 30, 2003, America was positioned as the catalyst to jump-start the so-called "solution" to the Middle East crisis. As U.S.-backed Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas was sworn in, the "Road Map" peace plan was set in motion.

The very next day began the worst month of tornadoes in American history, more than 500 in a single month. Normally, 1,000 tornadoes hit the United States each year, but this year, in just eight days in May, 375 twisters ripped across the heartland of America.

May 9, 2003, President Bush addressed students at the University of South Carolina. Bush called on the Palestinians to embrace the road to peace, and see the flag of Palestine raised over a free nation.

Hours later, tornadoes returned and Oklahoma City again became the bulls-eye for deadly twisters, reducing what was left of businesses and homes to splinters and bricks. The tornadoes of May devastated the Midwest with the third worst property damage in American history. Since then, the Road Map has endured a rocky road to June, coinciding with what may be America's most rain-drenched spring in history."

Yes, we should be in much prayer for the people of Joplin. The tornadoes that hit Alabama not long ago devastated parts of Alabama killing many people. Now the flood waters in Mississippi and Louisiana have claimed many homes and much farm land.

Mike

For the MOST part, tornadoes or any other natural disasters which claim human lives are NOT the handiwork of God. I'm not saying that it 100% of the time is not the case, but for the most part, under the New Covenant, God does not deal with men in this manner. When the Church sees natural disasters, coincidental accidents, etc..., and immediately labels them as God's work, and then commences to try and discover the particular "sin" which brought the event about, we show our lack of understanding concerning the New Covenant. I heard numerous wacky and unscriptural explanations for the Japan earthquake...not a single one were true. The earth groans as it waits for the manifestation of the sons of God in the resurrection...until then, the earth shakes and these things happen. Japan was judged 2,000 years ago in Christ, as was Joplin, MO: "31 Now is the JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.33 But ***this he said, signifying by what manner of death he should die***." (JOHN 12:31-33) Now, as a result: "...I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 COR 6:2) Or, as Christ called it, "the year of the Lord's favor..." (LUKE 4:19) In other words, since Christ drowned our old sinful self in the flames of the Godhead's wrath (ROM 6:6), we are in an era where He is not dealing with men, en-mass, according to their sins. (2 COR 5:19) Were he to repay all of humanity via natural disasters or tragic accidents, who of us would be left? But thank God for His mercy in Christ, He does not deal with masses of men and nations in this manner under the New Covenant. There is not a single, solitary example of nations being dealt with by God in this manner under the New Covenant. Some would argue Jerusalem was an example of this, but Christ's words seem to suggest otherwise. (MATT 23:37) Individuals? On occasions. Nations and cities? No. Would any of us dare say that this was what happened to David Wilkerson? I think not. Why then are we so quick to assume that this was the case with Joplin, Japan, etc...? However, had it been Larry Flynt or Howard Stern in Mr. Wilkerson's place, many Christians would have been declaring it to be the judgment of God. We need to be mindful of God's grace and the covenant under which we live.

Look at Jesus' words carefully in the following passage:

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (LUKE 13:1-5)

Christ clearly proclaimed that those put to death by Pilate, and the 18 who died beneath the tower of Siloam were not being put to death by God. It just happened. He asks, "Do you think that these guys died because they were greater 'sinners' than you yourselves?" The answer, "NO!" He then says that if His listeners don't change their minds and turn to God, they will all face an unsavory end...He was not threatening them with murder from a tyrant, nor with falling towers, but was speaking of eternal judgment. Christ was clearly showing us the vanity and absurdity of looking at other's hardships and assuming that they are being judged for their sins. Things happen. Tower's fall, tyrants kill, tornadoes destroy. To look at the victims of these events and play the blame game is childish at best, and a manifestation of very bad theology at worst.

Much love to all who read this...just sharing my thoughts on this matter. Peace.

Just a little clarification on a few misconceptions-

Jeremy221 stated

Isn't Joplin a major center for entertainment in the Midwest? I find it interesting that the Lord has hit several major entertainment centers in the US over the past several years. I was just wondering where would hit next and now I know.

Jeremy, you are thinkig of Branson, Missouri not Joplin. Branson is perhaps a little over 2 hours away from Joplin. Joplin is on no way, shape, or form any kind of entertainment center.

Greg added

Joplin is one of the hub's of pentecostalism!

Again..in the same general geographic area but you are referring to Springfield, Missouri. Springfield is about 90 minutes from Joplin up Interstate 44. Springfield is the headquarters for the Assemblies of God denomination and a definate hotbed of Pentecostalism. However, Joplin is a far cry from Springfield. It does have a few good Pentecostal/Charismatic/Spirit filled (pick a stripe) churches. However it is known locally as a pretty hard scrabble high drug use area. Perhaps the most notable thing is that it IS in fact a regional hub NOT of Pentecostalism..but of homosexuality. It is the "meeting" point of the gay community for a wide region. Again, some good folks there... but its "claim to fame"..so to speak ...is certainly not for its Godliness. Its more widespread "claim to fame" is that it is the homosexual meeting place.

Just a few clarifications from a guy who lived there for 10 years.

Blessings,

Solomon101

After much prayer and feeling very disturbed for the better part of the day and most of the night I am deleting my post. I never meant to imply that the people of Joplin were being judge by God because they were more sinful. I do believe God is in control of all things including things like this but in the end only God knows why one house is destroyed and the other left standing.

I will be praying for those affected.

God Bless
mj

How many abortion facilities does/did Joplin have?

Anyone who thinks God does not direct the elements is mistaken. He made the elements, He controls everything. He can make it rain on one parcel of land and not the one next to it (From the Book of Amos).

Praying for those in the path of those storms.

Old Joe, You said it, God does it all.

Praise Jesus, I listened to the link of the people hiding from the storm with tears running down my face. I had my headphones on and my husband kept asking me to stop listening for he was concerned for me, as he didn't know what it was I was hearing. It was awful and fearful but in the middle of it all, He was there. Thank you, Lord Jesus.

Personally, I don't know why these things happen, and what a lot of folks "especially Christians" need is answers, answers are usually always the flesh's way for closure. I don't know if God enabled this to happen for some kind of punishment, or it was just all in the his big picture. Why does devastation always have to have a label on it? Jesus was hung on a cross, and I am sure to his friends and family at the time, this was devastating, and he was perfect. He died this terrible death on the cross, because is was all in his Fathers plan, not because of any sin, has God changed? When we stop looking for closure on everything that happens in life, rather it's through many hours of pondering our brains to death, or through scripture, and just look up and say, God I don't know why these things happen, but God I do know you are still in control. When we say, Father you said in Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" we can stop looking for answers and closure on everything that happen in life. Show me were in the Bible were God said, we will be promised an answer for everything bad or good that happens. I personally have been Blessed the most in the mist of some of my worst sin, and knock down the most during the time I was trying my best to get closer to the Lord,in my actions,in my Faith, and in my prayer life,can you answer me to why this is? no you can't! You can search your limited mind, and try and find scripture to find an answer, but here's the best answer we can give to anyone "I don't know" why some things happen, but I do know God is still in control of everything.

Anyone who thinks God does not direct the elements is mistaken. He made the elements, He controls everything. He can make it rain on one parcel of land and not the one next to it (From the Book of Amos).

Has anyone heard from Travis (twayneb)?

I am continuing to hold him in prayer. Please join me.

When I heard the news that Barak Obama wanted Israel to restore their pre 1967 borders, I said to my wife that I would be surprised if there weren't any disaster happening in America immediately thereafter. The tornado hit within a day after Nehtanyahu's departure. My heart goes out for those affected.

God makes no exemption when anybody touches the apple of His eye, history proves it.

Joplin, MO. took a huge hit by multiple tornado's. Hundreds are homeless, almost a hundred dead so far...

Our county of Miller here in central Missouri, was on the edge of the hot zone. Yesterday afternoon my family and I were finishing our meal at Outback, when the Lord told me to go out to the car. When I walk out the Lord told me that there is destruction in this storm and to take authority over it and then go home.

I did just that. I said to that storm "In Jesus name, I take authority over you storm! In Jesus name, I command your destructive force to cease and dissipated. No you will not cause any damage to my property or family or county, in Jesus Holy name".

We had the dark clouds and the wind, lightning and thunder. No rain, until this morning.

God is an awesome God!

I am praying for those whom are homeless, lost loved ones and for the first responders. I am praying for the Churches in the area. It is devastating what the devil has done in Joplin Mo.

My daughter was home this weekend she lives in Branson just 45 minutes from Joplin.

Yes it is part of it. Springfield is where the Assemblies of God head Quarters is. Branson is the entertainment area. that is where my daughter lives while she is attending Collage of the Ozarks. It is a Christian working collage and she is in nursing school. Kristen is planning on going into the mission field when she is through with school.

A school friend of my wifes just posted on face book that one of his family members whom just had triplets and were in St. Johns hospital, lost there home in this tornado.

I ask everyone that reads this post to pray for this family and everyone that has been directly affected by this tragic devastation.

I do not believe that God is directing this storm. I do believe that the god of this world "the devil", is the director of it.

You need to read your Bible, brother, because you are wrong.

John 10:10

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Judge it by the fruit.

Recall that God would have spared Sodom for the sake of just a few righteous. There are a great many devoted followers of Jesus Christ in Joplin.

God makes no exemption when anybody touches the apple of His eye, history proves it.

Brother those born of God and in fellowship with Him are the apple of His eye.

Why would we want to blame God for destroying a place and people for something Obama did. Why would God destroy people who love His Son Jesus over the decision Obama made concerning Israel?

I have a hard time believing some peoples understanding of God. Some people blame God for everything and do not even consider that his people in His Son are not appointed to wrath.

The bible says that it is the goodness of God that causes men to repent not the wrath of God.

Blessings to all!

I do not believe for one second that the natural disasters that have happened right on the heals of our leaders mistreatment of Israel is a coincidince. There is a very strong case to believe that these natural disasters are directly linked to the stance of the U.S in oppostion to Israel.

How has the United States' treatment of Israel brought about many of its latest natural disasters?
by David Regan

I believe many of the blessings of the United States have been due to the fact that we have been a safe haven for the Jews. We are one of the only nations in the world that has not launched pogroms against them or persecutions, and also because we have been Israel's best friend ever since the state was reestablished in 1948.

But, the Bible says that in the end times ALL the nations of the world will turn against Israel over the issue of Jerusalem. Sadly, in the early 90's, the United States joined the rest of the world in their opposition to Israel. We did so primarily to ensure our access to Arab oil.

The turning point came in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Jews of Russia began flooding into Israel at the rate of 2,000 to 3,000 a day for one year. Can you imagine that number — 2,000 to 3,000 a day for one year? Israel was literally overwhelmed. The Israeli government went to the World Bank and said since they couldn't handle the influx they needed five billion dollars. The World Bank responded that they would not give them a dime unless the United States underwrote the loan. And so, they went to the first Bush administration and asked if the United States would underwrite the loan. President Bush replied in the affirmative, but that there would be one condition. Israel must go to the negotiating table and start trading land for peace.

The United States is the ones who forced Israel into the suicidal policy of trading land for peace. We have been their chief arm twister ever since, forcing them to divide the land that God gave them. In doing so, we have been courting God's wrath in a very special way.

Look at these sobering verses in Joel 3:1-2, "I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat the valley of judgment, and then I will enter into judgment with them on behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel whom they have scattered among the nations and have divided up my land." God says in the end times He is going to bring special judgment against any nation involved in dividing up His land. We are now one of those nations involved in dividing up the land.

Connecting the Dots

In 2004, a White House correspondent named Bill Koenig wrote a book entitled Eye to Eye: Facing the Consequences of Dividing Israel. The book has a very prophetic cover on it, showing President Bush looking over his right shoulder eye to eye with a menacing hurricane. In the eye of the hurricane is the symbol of Israel — the Star of David.

In his book, Koenig attempted to show the relationship between U.S. mistreatment of Israel and subsequent natural disasters, economic setbacks and political crisis. Let me just share a few of the natural disasters with you.

It all began on November 1, 1991, when we forced Israel to the Madrid Conference. We forced them to sit down at the table and start negotiating away their land to the Palestinians. That conference began on November 1, 1991, and on that exact day the Perfect Storm formed in the Atlantic. That perfect storm produced waves of over 100 feet and almost completely destroyed President Bush's home in Kennebunkport, Maine. In fact, on November the 1st USA Today had twin headlines. On one side it said," Madrid Conference Convenes," the other side said, "Perfect Storm Forms."

Consider what happened in the summer of 1992 when Yitzhak Rabin was elected the new prime minister of Israel. The moment he was elected in June, we put pressure on him and said he must come to Washington, sit down with the PLO's Arafat, and negotiate and give land to Arafat. He came and sat down with Arafat. Their meeting began on August 24, 1992, and on that very day Andrew Hurricane slammed into Miami. It was the greatest hurricane in the history of the United States up to that point.

Consider the Camp David Summit in July of 2000, when Bill Clinton brought Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat together. Clinton began to put pressure on Barak to trade away the heartland of Israel and also to give Arafat one half of Jerusalem. The day that conference began, fires broke out in the Western United States. Fifty fires consumed 500,000 acres of land before the end of the month.

Also, consider the White House celebration of Ramadan. It's the strangest thing why George W. Bush started this. I have no idea. This was Bush's response to 9/11 to schedule the first ever White House celebration of Ramadan. Someone once said scheduling a celebration of Ramadan after 9/11 was the equivalent to FDR scheduling a celebration of Shintoism after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It makes no sense whatsoever. It just doesn't make any sense! At this meeting, which was held in November of 2002, President Bush made this incredible statement. He said, "We have come to honor Allah, the God of Abraham." The very next day, a swarm of 88 tornadoes hit the central United States.

Consider what came next — the incredible Road Map Plan. The Road Map was put together by the Quartet. You talk about an ungodly quartet: Russia, the United Nations, the European Union and the United States. The plan's purpose was to force Israel to give away its heartland. This was delivered by Daniel Kurtzer, the ambassador to Ariel Sharon, on May 4, 2003. The next day Colin Powell went to the Middle East to implement the plan. The first thing he did was to meet with the terrorist leader Hafez Assad who's now dead. As soon as the meeting was over, he called a press conference and announced he had promised President Assad that the Golan Heights would be promised in the Road Map. He said we would force Israel to give up the Golan Heights. That very day, the greatest tornado swarm in the history of the United States occurred — 412 tornados broke out. The previous high was only 177!

In summary, in those years between 1991 and 2004, during those thirteen years that the United States had turned against Israel, here's what's happened:

9 of the 10 largest insurance events in U.S. history
9 of the 10 greatest natural disasters as ranked by FEMA relief costs
5 of the costliest hurricanes in U.S. history
3 of the 4 largest tornado swarms in U.S. history.
All of these disasters were linked in one way or another to our attempts to press Israel into dividing its land or surrendering all or part of Jerusalem.

The world would laugh at this and the world would say it's coincidence. I don't believe in coincidence, I believe in "God incidences."

In the next segment of this "God, Judgment and the Weather" series, we'll look at how one political event in particular relating to Israel resulted in Hurricane Katrina.

Alright, let me get this straight: Obama messes with Israel...so God kills himself a few dozen Missouriites? THAT God, dear friend, belongs atop Mt. Olympus or in some heathen Cannanite temple. One thing is for sure, He is NOT the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Can someone, ANYONE, cite me ONE New Testament example of God dealing with masses of people in this way? Some may point to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, but Christ stated that He desired to protect them from this, but that they wouldn't let Him. There are cases of individual men and women being dealt with thusly (Ananias & Sapphia, Herod, etc...), but no examples of masses of human beings being treated to a steamy plate of wrath all at the same time.

JEREMIAH 31:29-31:
29 “In those days people will no longer say,
   ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
   and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
 30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.
31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
   “when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
   and with the house of Judah.

The prophecy of Jeremiah is clear, in the New Covenant era, God is not dealing with man as an impersonal blob, treating one man's sin as the others. Instead the scripture says that man is dealt with on an individual basis. To lump all of Joplin together because of Obama's foolishness or because of its abortion industry is absurd and anti-scriptural. That notion of God is Greek and pagan, and MUST be shed...but can only be done when we have truly encountered the Cross and witnessed the weight of wrath which Christ bore. Peace and blessings.

FireinmyBones,

Do you also believe in pre-trib?

No, but I believe the Church, as Israel in Egypt, will not participate in the wrath of God. This is typified by the cup of wrath in the Passover Seder.

Thanks you for your posts fireinmybones,

I am pre-wrath just in case anyone wants to know.

I believe when we condemn others we are condemning ourselves.

I believe we are living in the days of grace and wrath is being stored up for the judgement day against all ungodliness and those in Christ Jesus will be delivered from the wrath to come.

Jesus told Peter that he didn't come to destroy men's lives but to save them.

Blessings to all!

.

End-times and tornadoes?

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Leans heavily toward post-trib, but if I die tomorrow who cares? Not me!!

Edited to add:

Jesus told Peter that he didn't come to destroy men's lives but to save them.

...That is just my opinion, leave it, it's ok!

God bless you brother!!
Your sister in Christ,
Lisa

Regardless of ones eschatology, our understanding of the atonement is central to our understanding of God's wrath in the New Covenant era.

I think it's important to remember that after Jesus told His disciples about the last days and wars and earthquakes and all kinds of peril that comes on the earth, He simply said, "behold, I have told you before." He didn't say they would understand why these things had come, He just wanted them to not be scared when they did.

In Christ,

Ron

Interesting, Abideinhim.

One thing destructive storms does is make people think of their own mortality and their relationship with God. Eschatology does not even factor in when you experience the howling wind and flying metal or see houses, buildings torn us and trees uprooted....

One of our customers told us how seeing the storms that wrecked havoc in MS and AL made him think of God when up to this point he did not think a whole lot about it. In God's economy no events will go to waste - this is part of his creative nature. Let us take a long look and see if God will not get some honor and glory from it all.

Why would we want to blame God for destroying a place and people for something Obama did.

There is a similar story in the Scriptures.

Remember when King Herod ordered all children below the ages of 2 killed after the wise men failed to show up after finding Jesus? This never did make sense to me. These people were not responsible for that Herod or the wise man did. Or, even responsible for Jesus' conception and birth.

Some things just fail to make a whole lot of sense...and such is life. In my opinion it just demonstrates that God's ways are not like ours. And I am content to leave it at that. Actually, many times I will later see the wisdom at work in things unreasonable...And even if I don't, I just know God is in control, still.

Remember when King Herod ordered all children below the ages of 2 killed

Yes King Herod and not God. There is a big difference.

Your'e sounding like a (fill in the blank)because they blame God for every calamity.

Blessings to you!

Dear sister Lisa,

Please don’t think for one minute that I believe that the Jews should have to suffer and I get out scotch free. The word of God tells us that through much tribulation shall we all have to come through before we enter into the kingdom of God as we live on this earth.

Some Christians have suffered greatly and they will reign with Christ. God does not want His people to be condemned with the world that has rejected Christ.

It is very obvious when we read Matthew 24 that Jesus is mainly talking about His own people the Jewish nation that did not receive Him as the Messiah and he even wept over this greatly because He loves Israel with an everlasting love and does not want them to perish. He was talking to his disciples who were with Him comforting them that he would be faithful to them no matter how great the tribulation.

The great tribulation is God’s final act on this earth of trying to save Israel from total destruction from the presence of the Lord. God still wants Israel to repent and to come to the knowledge of the truth. The new Israel of God will reign with Christ. This is made up of Jews and Gentiles who are saved by the grace of God in Christ. God puts no difference between the Jews and Gentiles who have been born of God because He hung on the cross for us both

The bible says that judgment must begin at the house of God. He also said that He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel first before he went to the Gentiles. I believe when he makes his final sweep of the endtime harvest with the final great tribulation he will begin with His chosen people Israel not because he doesn’t love them but because he wants them to have one final opportunity to except him and be saved. He said all Israel that are truly Israel will be saved.

Known to God are all His works from eternity past to eternity future. God knows the end from the beginning and how fortunate and blessed we are to have a part with Christ. Praise God- Christ is all in all!

Sister I don’t know what is going to happen tomorrow but praise God I know who holds tomorrow and I know who holds me through what ever I have to endure. I don’t know when Christ will come for his church but I know Christ lives in me.

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV) 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All I know is that God has not appointed me to wrath but to obtain salvation in the Son so therefore I am pre-wrath and I know it will all pan out in the Son. God has already poured out his wrath on his Son one time on the cross and he will never do it again. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings to you!

Yes King Herod and not God. There is a big difference.

No one is blaming God rbanks.

Though He slay me yet will I trust in Him. Job 13:15

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

(EDIT to include quote:

by rbanks on 2011/5/23 19:01:52

Remember when King Herod ordered all children below the ages of 2 killed

Yes King Herod and not God. There is a big difference. Your'e sounding like a (fill in the blank)because they blame God for every calamity. Blessings to you!

Yes, but even the killing of these children in Bethlehem was a fulfillment of prophecy was it not?

Wayne

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (KJV) 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Brethren,

Be assured of this one thing God will never do anything to grieve His own Spirit. Think about this and be not unwise but understanding what the will of the lord is.

Grace to you all!

by rbanks on 2011/5/23 19:17:57 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (KJV) 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Would you please explain yourself?
God bless you,
Wayne

Yes, but even the killing of these children in Bethlehem was a fulfillment of prophecy was it not?

There are some prophesies Jesus and his people fulfilled and there are some prophesies Satan and his people fulfilled.

We need wisdom to know the difference.

Blessings!

I have to agree with OJ on this one. A god who is not in complete control over all the elements is a god who is not worthy of worship IMO. God does allow the devil to exercise some power but it is still God who is in control, ordaining all things according to His purposes. He is not some passive weak god who is subjected to his creation. He is the Almighty who reigns over all things. He uses even the devil to accomplish His purposes, though we may not fully understand how that works at times.

Please explain by mackaymarsh on 2011/5/23 19:25:12

by rbanks on 2011/5/23 19:17:57 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (KJV) 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Would you please explain yourself? God bless you, Wayne

Meaning the devil has control over people until they come the light of Christ and are set free.

There are works of the devil as well as the works of God. We know that God ultimately will triumph over all in due time.

Blessings brother no pun intended.

by rbanks on 2011/5/23 19:27:28

Yes, but even the killing of these children in Bethlehem was a fulfillment of prophecy was it not?

There are some prophesies Jesus and his people fulfilled and there are some prophesies Satan and his people fulfilled. We need wisdom to know the difference. Blessings!

I do know one thing, God has it all under his watchful eyes; I trust Him.

Here is the scripture I was referring in case others would like to see it;

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

Matthew 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

My prayer are with all those affected by the recent tornadoes including the one 1/4 mile from my home on April 27th. It was the first of many that hit our area that day.

My trust is in God and His precious Son, Jesus!
May God bless you,
Wayne

2 places in the bible where Jesus Wept.

Both times it was because people did not understand the use of His power.

Many err because they do not know the scriptures nor the power of God.

Blessings!

Blessings to you mackaymarsh

I appreciate your love for God and sincerity.

My last post was not to you just in general.

2 places in the bible where Jesus Wept. Both times it was because people did not understand the use of His power. Many err because they do not know the scriptures nor the power of God.

I thought it was because of their unbelief in Him.

by rbanks on 2011/5/23 19:42:38 2 places in the bible where Jesus Wept. Both times it was because people did not understand the use of His power. Many err because they do not know the scriptures nor the power of God. Blessings!

It may be that we are just talking around each other. For my part I am very sorry and will end it here. It's twice you've questioned me, once my salvation and now I don't understand the scriptures.

This is getting way over my head and I will leave with this scripture which I believe I do understand.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

I trust that includes storms.

God bless you,
Wayne

There is no debate about who the source of this is. God is in control.

Just because God is the source of everything and in control does not mean He wills and desires everything that is going on under his watchful eye.

Be not unwise but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Blessings!

Why do we even have to look for a reason or scripture to justify this? To bad we all can't use the time and resources were using, looking for a reason or justification through scripture, to pack up some water,food,etc. to send to these folks, or even pack ourselves to go help, I think God would appreciate that more. I don't think the folks of Joplin are looking for reasons or scriptures to provide them with any justification or closure, they are looking for whats most important, getting their lives back together. Why does it seem that every disaster that happens, most Christians have to jump on the "this is why" band wagon, if we all really trust in God and know he is in total control, what do we have to prove? and who are we trying to prove this to, ourselves? No one really knows the "why" anyway, were all just guessing, unless you have God figured out, and if you do, please disregard the above.

Just because God is the source of everything and in control does not mean He wills and desires everything that is going on under his watchful eye.

No, but was Satan able to attack Job without first going to God about it? Job chapter 1.

Amen OJ.

2Co 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Mackaymarsh,

Hey brother you must of missed my last post where I said my posts were not directed at you but just in general.

Blessings to you I am not doubting your salvation!

I posted many posts but just in general mostly for anyone to read and understand.

I think I will bow out of this discussion because I have no intention to offend but only to exalt our Lord Jesus.

Blessings to you all!

OJ, to your excellent post I wish to add from the book of Amos

Amos 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

God knows where every rain drop falls because he directs it. He created it and he controls it.

My understanding of tornados, Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me. They are nothing more than God's Rod and for His children it means only good.

WS

Indeed you are right. There is no debate as to the source of the devastation. It was not God. Amen and amen. I say again what I've said throughout this thread, there is not a single ***New Testament*** example of God treating judging men en mass via natural disasters or some other such calamity. Obviously the destruction of Jerusalem was not the handiwork of God as Christ said He longed to protect them, but they would not allow it. (MATT 23:37) Certainly there are numerous examples in God's dealings with men under the Old Covenant that could prove this point. The problem, however, is the cross. After the Cross, we never see God dealing with whole cities and nations this way. Individual people? From time to time. Masses of people? Never. Why is this? Because in Christ, the whole of humanity was judged and is now existent in what Christ called the "year of the Lord's favor" and what Paul called the "time of God's favor & the day of salvation". God is no longer counting men's sins against them, but has reconciled them to Himself through Christ. Have all believed and received this reconciliation? Absolutely not. Yet still, God is not treating men according to their sins. It has only been those who have openly attempted to impede the progress of the Gospel that God has treated in harsh ways (Herod, Ananias & Sapphira, Simon, Elymas, Saul before his conversion, etc...). The fact that such scenarios do not take place post-calvary says quite a bit.

Furthermore, the Scripture is clear that the Father's nature is NOT perfectly revealed to us through Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, etc... Instead, the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Father's heart and nature is perfectly expressed through the life and demeanor of Jesus Christ the Son:

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being... (HEB 1:1-3)

Christ affirms this truth in John 14:9, when He declares to Phillip that to behold Him was akin to beholding the Father. What does this mean? That Christ was the unveiling of the personality of Father God. Where do we find Christ releasing fire, brimstone and wrath upon cities and peoples? Nowhere. We find Christ weeping over Jerusalem's refusal to receive Him and thus be protected from the onslaught to come in AD 70. We likewise find Christ speaking against the unbelief of Korazin, Bethsaida, Tyre, Sidon and Capernaum in Matthew 11:20-24, yet He does not declare that natural disasters and/or physical calamities will be their undoing. Rather, He speaks of the coming day of judgment, which will come only after the "year of the Lord's favor", the New Covenant era. In other words, even to these unbelieving cities, their judgment would come not until the day of judgment. Why bother saying this? Because if Christ is the exact representation of the Father...His Word made physical, why didn't He act against these cities the way our imagined God acts against cities? Where were the tornadoes, the hurricanes, the earthquakes? Why didn't Christ call fire down from Heaven like Elijah? Because that is not the heart of God towards these men. He gives them space to repent and believe, and will withhold His judgment until the "day".

But perhaps the most dramatic and poignant examples of Christ displaying the Father's mercy, is found in Luke 9:

51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. (LUKE 9:51-56)

Did you see that? The disciples fully expected Christ to comply with their request and to act in a fashion similar to Elijah. "Let's call down fire on those unbelievers!" And yet, Christ rebukes them for their harshness and lack of understanding concerning God's heart and Christ's mission. Christ actually tells the disciples that their words find their genesis in a spirit other than Gods...only one other choice brothers. Christ simply states that He did NOT come to destroy men's lives via disaster and calamity, but to save them. Now remember, in all of these things Christ is being what Hebrews 1 speaks of. That is, He was perfectly showing us the heart of the Father. If you've seen Jesus' actions towards unbelieving and even outright wicked societies, you've seen God the Father's actions as well. With that being said, could you picture the man Jesus Christ ordering a devastating tornado upon the citizens of Joplin? Could you imagine the man Jesus conjuring up a furious earthquake in order to bring Japan to their knees? I for one can't, as it's opposite His nature revealed to us in the Gospel. Now, I could picture Zeus, Poseidon, Dagon or some other such pagan entity behaving in this manner, but not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Friends, we must distinguish better between covenants. When we only study the prophets, we are missing the whole point. Peter tells us that these very prophets longed to be a part of what we are a part of, and were, in fact our servants. They were not satisfied with the understanding and knowledge of God that they had, and why should we? They longed to see Christ in the flesh, and to behold God as He truly is. They longed to feast at the revelatory table that is the epistles of Paul, but could not. For us to neglect the revelation of God given us in the Gospel, and settle for an understanding of God that even those who had it longed to move beyond is a crying shame. Behold Christ and behold the Father. What does He have for Joplin? Forgiveness, reconciliation, redemption...not tornadoes.

Has twayneb (Travis) checked in?

Checking in! We were at church when the tornado came through. We put everyone in a couple of interior classrooms and prayed. Much to my wife's chagrin I stood at the door of the building about 6 blocks south of the tornado and watched it come through. The roar was unsettling. It sounded like powerful waterfalls roaring. I could tell the town was being ripped apart and small debris was falling around the church. For those who are familiar with the town (or like google maps) the storm first touched down at about 32nd street and Central City Road. It tracked ENE to about 20th and Indiana streets and then followed 20th street to Duquesne road. From there it turned slightly south and exited town. Several friends lost their homes but amazingly enough few were home at the time.

My son is a CNA at Freeman Hospital in town. He reported for work yesterday and was immediately put to work in search and rescue. They had him use his pickup and haul wounded to the hospital, dead to a temporary morgue. He is pretty shaken by the images he cannot get out of his mind. Pretty gruesome. The official number I last heard was 116 dead but I think that is a low estimate. The effected part of the town is unrecognizable and it is hard to figure out where you are at. In a 1/2 mile wide swath across town there is nothing but foundations covered by piles of rubble, logs, and smashed cars with the stumps of trees sticking up between them. I was at 26th Street and Iowa Ave. and could see St. John's Hospital. RobertW can tell you that view should not be possible.

Pray for the people in Joplin.

Isn't Joplin a major center for entertainment in the Midwest? I find it interesting that the Lord has hit several major entertainment centers in the US over the past several years. I was just wondering where would hit next and now I know. In light of that, I would recommend any who are stuck in fear by these things to listen to part 5 of America's Last Call by David Wilkerson.

Jeremy221: Actually no, Joplin is not at all an entertainment center. I do believe that this overactive weather is part of the groaning and travailing of creation. I do not believe this storm was judgement on the city.

I have to agree with OJ on this one. A god who is not in complete control over all the elements is a god who is not worthy of worship IMO. God does allow the devil to exercise some power but it is still God who is in control, ordaining all things according to His purposes. He is not some passive weak god who is subjected to his creation. He is the Almighty who reigns over all things. He uses even the devil to accomplish His purposes, though we may not fully understand how that works at times.

Oracio: I am NOT talking about Deism (think I need to make that clear up front) but there are things that God does not control directly. One obvious is the will of man, but I think we can all agree that God will allow you to choose as you will. But I believe the same of weather. Has God and does God sometimes use weather, i.e. control it directly? I believe so. Does He always do it? Not by a long shot. He established weather patterns, sin corrupted them, and much of what happens is simply the natural happenings of weather. Remember Jesus did not cause the storm on the sea of Galilee, but He did calm it.

I have bowed out of this discussion but I thank God that you are safe Travis. Praise God He protected and brought you through the storm. Praying for you all as you deal with the aftermath of the devastation that hit your area, your family, friends and neighbors.

Let us know how we can help!

In Christ Love,
rbanks

I am glad to hear you are alright Travis. Sorry to hear about your friends and son they will be in my prayers.I have been through two tornado in my life(thankfully not nearly as bad) and they are a terrifying thing to be in.

One thing I have been thinking about with all of these storms and the floods hitting the Midwest is that very soon they may be effecting all of us as many farms that supply food to everyone are being destroyed also. Many, many peoples whole lives are being turned upside down, we need to be in prayer for them and to look to Jesus. He is the only answer!!

God bless
mj

Yes King Herod and not God. There is a big difference.

Mr. Banks, did you forget that God through the prophets foretold this event? Jeremiah 31:15 (NASB):

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

Seems to me one should quit using the word blame in referring these catastrophic events. It is man who sinned and it is God who allows these events to force people to think of their own mortality and their standing before God Almighty. The book of Revelation is filled with this concept: God sends calamities and the result is that "they still did not repent". So one cannot say they were not warned.

The purpose of these storms is always to afflict the comfortable, to help him understand that he is not as much in control as he thinks he is. We need to understand this and live it.

Your'e sounding like a (fill in the blank)because they blame God for every calamity.

I have no clue who you are talking about - I do not keep up with modern day writers and their philosophies. I just know what the Book says and know right well that life reflects its accuracy.

@anonymous777,
Thank you for answering my question with New Testament referrences. This question cannot be answered by Amos, as Amos' words, and YES those spoken by God, are subject to the change in covenants and CANNOT be read outside of that context.

Now as to your referrences, I can't speak to them all at present as I'm on my phone, my thumbs are big, the keys are small and getting sore. :-). I will however, say that Paul's thorn in the flesh is clearly the persecution he experiences at the hands of men (messengers of Satan). Paul very clearly states this in the context of the verse. Also, the instance of sick and dying Corinthians most likely had less to do with God making men sick and die, and more with the poorer members of the body going unrecognized, or "not discerned" and dying from malnutrition...many commentators have written on the likelihood of this being the case. As for handing men over to Satan, you are correct, however, it wasn't the handiwork of God, but Satan, and yes, in these instances God did use Satan to afflict certain INDIVIDUALS, but not masses, cities, or nations. Men are dealt with on an individual basis and NOT lumped together and judged for other men's sins. To say that God hasn't changed in respect to judgment is absurd. Certainly the cross has accomplished something beyond securing your bus ticket to heaven. You and I and the cosmos have been reconciled to God...and He is not dealing with us according to our sins. Now, can spiritual misalignment cause Satan to have inroads into our lives. Sure. NOT the occasional stumbling of a brother, but the willful turning away and disobedience of the rebellious. In those cases, yes, Satan can gain an inroad, but the point I'm making is that it's NOT God...Also the Revelation passage concerning Christ coming to bring judgment is in reference to the day of judgment and wrath, NOT everyday life.

Brother Travis,

You said

Remember Jesus did not cause the storm on the sea of Galilee, but He did calm it.

In my humble opinion, God the Father caused the storm to give Jesus the occasion to calm it.

How can sin corrupt weather patterns?

If the distance of the storm was safe enough for my husband to satisfy his curiosity, he would have allowed me to be by his side viewing it. Or else, he would have had to tie me down. If there were children involved I would have pointed out to him his responsibility to stay alive to care for them, and me. But then that is just my view.

As for saying God controls some of the weather and not all of it doesn't sit well in my understanding. He is either in control - or he isn't. We can't pick and choose when we think He takes a hand. Especially in a believers life. My understanding is that Everything that happens in a believers life is from God. Every person who is put in front of you, God puts there. How we treat them is our Pound.

My prayers are for the Saints and those about to become Saints, in your damaged City and the World.

Praising Jesus for your safety,
white stone

EDIT (after I read more of this daunting and odd thread)

ONE of the issues being debated really seems to be a discussion between covenantal theology and dispensational theology. Perhaps that issue should be addressed (in another thread to respect forum etiquette?).

Anonymous,

Thanks for your reply. I have to say that I would have been shouting "Amen" a few years back. I know where you're coming from and can see your perspective. I've undergone a massive transformation in the last few years as I've studied the scriptures and have begun to come to different conclusions than the ones I once held to. I'm totally open to correction, this is just an issue that I feel passionate about as it truly seems to be a vice on the mind of the church.

Let me respond to the comments about Paul's thorn. In Numbers 33:55, Jos 23:13 & Judges 2:3, opposition from ungodly individuals and nations are called "thorns in your sides". I personally believe this to be what Paul was alluding to when he mentions being given a "thorn in his flesh". He does indeed call this "thorn" a messenger of satan, and then refers to it as an "it" as opposed to a "them". However, you must remember that Paul is speaking in a metaphor. He did not tell us the name of a person, a group or a physical malady. He simply called it a thorn. In calling it an "it", he is simply continuing usage of the metaphor.

Paul says:

"8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in ***weakness***." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. " (2 COR 12:8-10)

Paul seems to go on to state that his "infirmity" was akin to a need, persecution, distress & reproaches. We know that Paul promised all believers persecution. However, he also states that a special "allotment" of persecution seems to have been given to the apostles:

"8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us--and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now." (1 COR 4:8-13)

My take on it anyways.

twayneb wrote:

Remember Jesus did not cause the storm on the sea of Galilee, but He did calm it.

I think sometimes the best answer we can give is that we don't know exactly why God allows certain things but we trust in His wisdom and righteousness in allowing such things. As has already been pointed out, clearly one reason He allows large scale calamities is to wake people up to the issue of eternity and their relationship with God.

As believers, we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. The "all things" includes natural disasters or any other calamities that may come our way. We can trust that He has a special purpose for allowing everything in our lives. I think a good prayer sometimes is, "Lord, what do you want me to learn from this?" As to the unsaved, there are countless testimonies of people being saved through times of suffering and difficulty. C.S. Lewis stated, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."

"Nearly every pulpit in the land was working overtime to prove that God had nothing to do with earthquakes and thus allay the fears of the people. The Spirit was striving to knock at hearts with conviction, through this judgment. I felt indignation that the preachers should be used of Satan to drown out His voice. Just as he later used them to stir up hatred and murder, during the great war. Even the teachers in the schools labored hard to convince the children that God was not in earthquakes. The devil put on a big propaganda on this line."

Thanks Frank!

This is a very good example of how God uses natural disasters in judgement. Many Christians don't want to hear this. They see all disasters as coming from the devil. It is not much different now than it was in Jeremiah's day. The people want to hear peace and prosperity coming from the mouths of the prophets. They do not want to hear of judgement because they do not want to repent.

Judgement will do one of two things. It will either awaken the people to repentance or it will harden their hearts.

May the intercessors stand in the gap and cry out for mercy for our land.

Mike

Thanks for that timely article brother Frank.

The amazing thing about the OT prophets is that their writings still speak as forcibly today as they did when they were originally penned. And they are just as much rejected today as they were back then.

Thanks for sharing this article.

Hi twayneb,

It is great to hear from you, brother! My wife and I were holding you and your family in our prayers. We appreciate the update!

Oracio: I am NOT talking about Deism (think I need to make that clear up front) but there are things that God does not control directly. One obvious is the will of man, but I think we can all agree that God will allow you to choose as you will. But I believe the same of weather. Has God and does God sometimes use weather, i.e. control it directly? I believe so. Does He always do it? Not by a long shot. He established weather patterns, sin corrupted them, and much of what happens is simply the natural happenings of weather. Remember Jesus did not cause the storm on the sea of Galilee, but He did calm it.

Good points.

In the "Camping's Legacy" thread, I urged caution in regard to the notion that the tornado was a divine act that superseded the laws of nature that God set in motion at the foundation of the Earth.

This is my response:

....... ....... ........

Veronica226 wrote:

I suppose then the question could be asked, how many children did God kill in the Flood? Hundreds? thousands? millions? We must remember that God is NOT a tame lion. And that He says "I kill and I make alive." (Deut 32:39) God has the right to take life whenever or wherever.

The flood of Noah came only after the thoughts of the entire world were wicked. This was not the age of grace either. It was before the covenant of the rainbow when God promised not to destroy the entire world by water. It predated Moses and the Law. It predated the New Covenant that God made with mankind via the Gospel.

As such, I am disappointed with those who are painting God as the culprit behind the recent tornado in Joplin. It is the THIEF who comes to KILL, STEAL and DESTROY -- and God who comes to bring LIFE.

Yes, God is ultimately in charge of the weather. Just like He is in charge of gravity. He created the principles guiding the laws of physics -- including meteorology. These laws are firm (as in "firmament") cannot be changed EXCEPT by the divine intervention of God.

So, in this sense, God is responsible for ALL weather -- including fair weather days and bad weather days too. He set it in motion...when He created the physical principles and physical laws that guide this world. At the same time, he is responsible for the volcanoes at the bottom of the sea, the temperature of the sea, and the fact that roses smell nice, aloe vera sooths and poison ivy will give you a rash.

The greater question is whether or not God specifically superseded the laws of meteorology (that He set in motion at the foundation of the world), bypassed those weather principles and specifically CREATED this particular tornado for some reason or another.

Did God act supernaturally in order to create a supernatural weather phenomenon in order to devastate that small town, kill about 120 people and injure many others (including believers and non-believers, children and adults)?

People can pretend that this is something other than a natural weather phenomenon. However, they are just GUESSING. They are not only guessing that God supernaturally created it for a specific purpose outside of natural meteorological laws that He designed at the foundation of the Earth -- but that He purposed to cause the death of many people too.

I do believe that God oversees the events and natural laws of this world. I certainly believe that God can and does step in and intervene on our behalf at times superseding the very laws of nature that He designed. However, the subtle insinuations of a particular "judgment of God" in regard to this tornado remind me quite a bit of those people who loudly proclaimed Hurricane Katrina to be the judgment of God upon the people of New Orleans.

Of course, it was just as odd that some believe that God would choose to kill the poor in New Orleans who were stuck during the hurricane (and failure of the man-made levies) in the RESIDENTIAL neighborhoods (and destroy those areas) -- while allowing the wealthy and the sinful areas to be spared. This is especially true when you consider the cities that are much more sinful and Godless -- like Hollywood...or Beijing...or Tehran.

God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah if just 10 righteous had been found. Unfortunately, there was just Lot (and possibly his daughters and wife). Yet God safely delivered Lot out of the city. What about the faithful old women in Joplin who died? The children?

No where in Scripture has God ever purposed Himself to KILL the righteous. Yet, from what I have read, some faithful old believers perished in this tornado.

Again, this is why I believe that storms and tragedies like this demonstrate that God has set in motion the laws of nature (including weather). However, I do not believe that God supernaturally bypassed those laws that He created to specifically create a tornado to kill 120 people and destroy 3/4 of the town.

....... ........ .......

We are continuing to pray for you and the residents of Joplin. I do pray that many will turn to Christ after all of this.

I have talked to no one today who would say God had anything to do with this catastrophy. What a sad state in which we live when men determine based on an image of their own devise, what God will and will not do. Since the rains impede the work of men, they are are supposed to solicite a time of reflection on the very God who brings them. If we cannot trust scripture which speaks to this; Heaven forbid it hail!

He seals the hand of every man that all may know His work.

Very true!

After all, it rains on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). God set the laws of nature in order at the foundation of the world.

A short time ago, another tornado went through Oklahoma City. We are praying for them too.

After all, it rains on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). God set the laws of nature in order at the foundation of the world.

I believe that all the world was under the dominion of man when he was created, including the elements. Man was made a vice-regent of sorts; man was under the dominion of God, the world under the dominion of man.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(Genesis 1:26)

It was when man tore himself away from God's dominion that his dominion over the world was torn from him. I beleive that natural disasters are a clear indication of this. Peace with God and peace with creation were lost. When I see perils come upon the earth I don't immediately think it is God's judgement on a particular people. What I think about is how much I hate sin because of the suffering, pain, and tears that it causes.

As Jesus pointed out when speaking about the tower of Siloam that fell and killed 18 people, this is not a world of retribution (Luke 13:4-5). Many times the most wicked people prosper here and their punishment is reserved for another age while the righteous often suffer much and "appear" to be under judgment. This we do know, that everything will be made fair and plain in the end and there will be no more pain and tears in heaven.

In Christ,

Ron

Is it not odd that man will attribute needed rain to God but when accompanied by hail or tornadoes, it is just nature? or whatever?

I grew up in rural America. Dad had a working farm, growing grain as well as other farm animals and fowl. Since we have been married, most of our married years were associated with agriculture. Those of us who grow crops, raise animals or fowl are totally dependent on the weather for moisture. If there is a prolonged drought we will have special prayer meetings at church that God would relieve us from this drought - people's livelihood is in jeopardy. (And so is your food supply!) Those of us involved in agriculture are so very God conscience, we depend on the LORD to give us rain; we know He is in charge regardless what forms it comes in. If it is bad, we pray for protection because we KNOW God is in control of it all.

Hi OldJoe, GinnyRose, etc...

Do you think that some people are saying that God supernaturally superseded the very laws of nature that He created (when He founded the world) as an act of judgment meant to destroy 75% of a small town in Missouri and kill 122+ people? Or are people simply saying that God set the laws of nature into motion, and those physical laws eventually resulted with this storm?

God certainly created the laws of nature and set them in motion when He founded the world. He can certainly create storms and calm them just as easily. He can intervene as He sees fit.

However, this storm was the result of two converging air masses that collided violently and produced a super cell that spawned multiple tornadoes -- one which hit Joplin, Missouri (and the others hit mostly rural areas). I saw some video online where some meteorologists "foresaw" the tornadoes forming before they did...and even issued warnings shortly before the tornado struck.

I don't know if some of the brothers and sisters here are saying that God caused this storm in the sense that He set in motion the laws of nature when He founded the world and didn't intervene to stop it -- OR that He supernaturally superseded those normal laws that He created in order to specifically create this tornado at this point of time as an act of judgment. After reading some of the comments, it does seem a bit confusing.

The Scriptures say that we shouldn't worry about tomorrow. We shouldn't worry about what we will eat or drink, or how we will be clothed. Jesus also said that a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the Father (Matthew 10:29-31). However, I don't think that Jesus meant that God was out killing birds. Rather, I believe that God set the world and its laws into motion when He spoke it into existence. This includes the laws pertaining to nature and physics (including meteorology, biology, etc...).

Last year, there were more than 1,500 reported tornadoes and nearly 1,300 confirmed in the United States (according to the National Weather Service). The average is between 1,000 and 1,400 tornadoes in the United States each year. Most of these take place in the Spring along "Tornado Alley" that stretches in the central corridor of the United States where cold air masses converge with warm air masses. While God set the laws of nature in motion, I think that it would be unwise to attribute every one of these results of the laws of nature as a specific judgment against humanity.

Of course, they always serve as a reminder of the power of both nature and God. God created the laws of nature and physics. He is not bound to those laws, but He set them over us as we live in this temporary world.

I just think that we should be slow to place the blame upon God for the destruction and death that came from this particular storm or voice it assertively as some form of divine judgment for the sins of Joplin, MO. Otherwise, we might find ourselves looking into a supernatural tornado and being asked why God didn't consult us (if we are so wise) when He formed the world.

We should certainly pray for the people of Joplin...and pray that many find Christ. However, I think that we should all be a bit "slow to speak" before we pronounce each and every work of nature as a form of divine judgment.

by anonymous777 This is what we know. 1. God did not intervene to stop these storms. 2. We are not hapless victims of circumstances or "nature". 3. Man does not view these storms as blessings. We don't know how God views them or what His many purposes are in allowing them. 4. There is a reason for everything that God allows. 5. Job did not view the natural elements that wreaked havoc on his family as blessings. 6. As Job says, "are we to take good from the Lord and not bad also?" 7. Job viewed all of the "natural" tragedies as coming from God's hand. The greatest power in this world is God. He can stop it but He chose not to. And, as Job says, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." A777

I totally agree! and put in such a simple way, that even a child could understand, I think God would be proud of you.

Hi OldJoe,

We kind of figured that, but where did the air masses come from? Who arranged them? Why did they collide exactly where they did?

As I said, God is the Creator of the Universe. He is the Author of the laws of nature and set the order of nature in motion when He created the universe "in the beginning."

Where did the air masses come from -- and why did they collide? Why did they collide where they did?

They are products of many factors -- particularly seasons. Most tornadoes take place during the Spring...and in the same general regions. Why? Arctic air masses are still powerful enough to push southeast while the Earth is tilted on its axis at a warmer angle (for the Northern Hemisphere) toward the Sun during its elliptical revolution. While they can form anywhere, the vast majority occur in the less mountainous regions known as "tornado ally" where the arctic fronts haven't lost much energy and meet equatorial warm (and energy rich) air masses. When the energy from the cold air collide with the energy from the warm air -- powerfully violent "supercells" are formed. The supercells often spawn tornadoes. This has been replicated in laboratories and via computational fluid dynamic models.

Of course, all of these things were initially "set in motion" when God created the Earth. This is the "order" to which the Earth -- outside of divine intervention -- is confined.

No, what we are telling you is that your laws of nature being passively observed by God are a load of bunk. God didn't just create the world and set everything in motion and then sit back in His proverbial easy chair to watch what would happen.

First of all, these are not MY laws of nature. God is the Creator of all things -- including the laws of nature. Therefore, they aren't "bunk." You can see these "laws" every time you experience the changes of the seasons...breathe air (and not a different concoction of gases)...or fall to the ground via the measured laws of gravity. God is not confined to the laws that He authored, but He did place us in a universe where those laws are in "order."

Moreover, no one has accused God of sitting in an "easy chair." However, the general principles for His Creation were set in motion and are quite firm. God "set" the moon and stars in their places. At Creation, God "set" the Earth into motion to the point that it rotates once every ~24 hours and revolves around the Sun approximately once every 365 days.

Even God took note of the "days" that were set in motion -- noting that the "Sabbath" was the day in which He RESTED from His Creation. This is the "set in motion" that I was speaking of.

Interestingly, Jesus said that man can predict the weather by looking at the sky (Matthew 16:1-3). If God was controlling all of the weather on a basis completely independent of the laws that the Lord set in motion, then how could men determine weather by the appearance of the sky?

Now, again, God is NOT confined to the order to the Universe (and the Earth) that He defined at Creation. After all, He created light BEFORE He created the Sun and the stars. He superseded the laws of physics and nature by walking on water -- and Peter did the same (until he took his eyes off of Jesus and looked at the waves). However, I haven't met anyone else who has walked on water. Why? The laws and order of nature were set in motion...and are superseded only by supernatural act of God. Nothing is impossible for God (or for those who believe). So, God could easily intervene on behalf of His people and interfere with the very order to Creation that He set up.

While we know that there will be a full moon on June 14th-16th, God could easily STOP it. However, so far, God hasn't stopped that cycle. Because the laws of nature -- the order of the universe that God designed -- is so precise, we can determine when the next solar and lunar eclipses will take place. In fact, the next total lunar eclipse will take place on June 15th. Of course, that is unless God decides to bypass the very order to nature that He put into place at Creation.

I think that everyone would agree that God oversees all of His Creation. However, the Lord rested from His work of Creation following the sixth day. While no one would accuse God of sitting in an "easy chair," He is omnipotent in overseeing all of Creation at all times.

This brings me to the gist of what I was asking. Do people believe that God caused the tornado in Joplin, Missouri by purposely deciding to bring it about an act of judgment (as it seems that some have tried to insinuate)? In other words, did God supersede the order of nature and suddenly create a tornado apart from "natural" weather to destroy a town and kill 124+ people? Or are people just saying that God oversees the entire world -- including every storm -- even by the order that He set (including laws of weather) at Creation?

The reason that I asked is because my wife read some of the posts and couldn't understand what people were saying. She said that it appeared that some people were accusing God of suddenly creating a tornado as an act of judgment upon the little town of Joplin, Missouri. As my wife said, if that is what people are actually writing, that is quite an accusation to make. I read through these posts and I just couldn't tell what some people were trying to say...which was why I asked.

I think that we all agree that God oversees the Earth and will continue through the fulfillment of all things. However, I am more interested with the notion that some people seemed to insinuate that this particular tornado (one of an average of 1000-1400 per year) was a supernatural ("super" + "natural" = "above/outside" + "nature") decision that bypassed natural order of weather that God defined and set in order "in the beginning."

I hope that clarifies what I was saying.

Do people believe that God caused the tornado in Joplin, Missouri by purposely deciding to bring it about an act of judgment (as it seems that some have tried to insinuate)? In other words, did God supersede the order of nature and suddenly create a tornado apart from "natural" weather to destroy a town and kill 124+ people? Or are people just saying that God oversees the entire world -- including every storm -- even by the order that He set (including laws of weather) at Creation?

I was punished for my sin. It was a perfectly just punishment - so much so that I marveled at the perfect justice of the LORD. All of the rest really doesn't matter - He is perfect, and He is just.

I don't think there's any scriptural evidence to support 'including the elements'. I believe God has kept them in His own hand, although there are great stories of answered prayer for rain, or protection, or miraculous escapes in fog, in which He has heard and responded to His people's requests.

I believe that the verse I quoted which states that man was given dominion "over all the earth" includes what we would call supernatural powers but was merely natural to Adam. Watchman Nee discussed these powers when he wrote on the Latent Power of the Soul. William Gurnall also wrote of a peace that was lost with "the creature" including things like fire and water in his book The Christian in Complete Armor.

In Christ,

Ron

But it is really all speculation isn't it?

There is much speculation in this thread, wouldn't you agree?

Wouldn't you also agree that even if Adam didn't originally have dominion "over all the earth", that things aren't the way they were originally intended to be? The whole of creation groans under the weight of sin and there is suffering and pain in the world as a result. This is why I say that when these things come upon the earth I don't think about God judging a particular people, but rather a deeper hatred for sin is stirred in me.

Read Job 38 and you will see that God controls all the elements

In Christ,

Ron

Hi OldJoe,

To answer clearly, YES God purposely decided to bring about that tornado and destroy that town. For some it will be an act of judgment, but for others it will be an act of mercy.

Thanks for clearing that up. I disagree with the opinion that God bypassed regular weather patterns that He set in motion and supernaturally created this tornado as an act of punishment and judgment upon the men, women and children of that small town.

I have read reports where faithful believers were killed during this disaster. So, this particular assumption implies that God killed believers and unbelievers in Joplin (and the livelihood of many others). Since when has God poured out His judgment, wrath and death upon His own people – who have overcome evil by the blood of the Lamb?

I do believe that God oversees the world. He set the world (including its order) into motion “in the beginning” when He created it. I believe that God can control all of it as He sees fit – including things like weather, gravity, the length of days, etc… And, of course, I believe that God can intervene by bypassing the very laws of nature that He designed. Still, I feel that this tornado was the result of weather. Chances are that there will probably be another tornado today (somewhere) – since the U.S. averages over around 1,200 per year.

But, like anonymous777 said, we need to be quite careful that we aren’t attributing emphatically that this was some form of judgment from God (in the “punishment” or “wrath” connotation of the word “judgment”) less we find ourselves voicing the same assumptions that Job did – of which God ultimately questioned (in Job 38-41). That questioning from the Lord (out of a whirlwind, no less) led to Job admitting, “Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not” (Job 42:1-3).

Chris

Question for you:

If you lived in the tornado zone and it MISSED your house, would you be thankful to God? Why or why not?

Interestingly, I have been in a house that was hit by a tornado.

It happened while I was alone in one of the Church parsonages where I volunteered after graduating high school (and before starting college). I awoke to a knock at my door during the wee hours of the morning. I looked at the clock and wondered who could be knocking on my door. Then (while I still lay in my bed), I noticed that it was storming and hailing loudly and violently outside, so I thought that it might have just been the wind at my door. However, I then heard that same knock again (just like the knock when someone is standing at the door).

I assumed that a stranded driver might have been knocking for help. So, I quickly put on a pair of pants and headed to the door (in my kitchen). I looked out the window to see who it was, but I didn’t see anyone there (although I couldn’t see the entire porch). So, I cracked opened the door slightly and said, “Hello?” At that moment, I heard a lot of loud wind and other noise and the door literally slammed shut.

I thought that I should go into the restroom in case a tornado was coming. I noticed that the electricity went out. So, I made my way into the hall and headed toward the bathroom. At that moment, lightning flashed. I realized that the light was flashing through my attic door (in the hall ceiling). I couldn’t open the bathroom door, so I tried to open my bedroom door. It seemed “stuck,” so I literally pushed it open. I noticed that it was raining/hailing inside of my bedroom and that I could see sky.

Little did I know that the very moment that I had opened the door, a tornado had struck my house. It literally ripped off the entire roof of my house – except a little bit of the roof over my porch and kitchen next to the porch (where I was standing). At the time, I simply thought that part of my roof had caved in or blown in from the storm. The ceiling was still hanging in the kitchen and hallway, so I didn’t know the extent of the damage.

As a teenager, I was a bit frightened. I couldn’t get into my bedroom, so I decided that I would take a butter knife and try to pop the lock at the Church (located next door). So, I ran outside in a pair of pants without a shirt holding a butter knife to the Church. There was an old lock for one of the doors that was easy to pop, but as I ran, I remembered that the church had just changed that lock to a deadbolt. So, I decided to try another door. The Church’s large kitchen was always dead-bolted, because the door gets stuck. However, I desperately tried that door first (because it was still hailing).

Not only was that door unlocked, but there was still power. The light was on, and there was a warm, dry towel neatly folded on the buffet counter. I immediately used it to dry off. I was a bit frightened and got on my knees and prayed. I felt the Lord comfort me with the words, “I am with you…always” repeated in my mind. I got up and decided to try the telephone. It worked. I called my oldest sister (who had recently married and still lived in town). Her husband answered the phone, and I told him that I thought that part of my roof collapsed and asked if he could pick me up.

My brother-in-law arrived a few minutes later. I asked him if we could drive by the house to see what type of damage had been done. When we pulled up to the side of the house opposite to the kitchen porch, I noticed that the windows were all blown out or missing. From the car, I was looking on the ground (with the headlights) and mentioned that the windows were missing and that I couldn’t see the air conditioner unit. My brother-in-law said, “Chris, your roof didn’t just collapse. It isn’t even there!” So, I praised God for His protection and went to my sister’s house. I told them the story about the knock at the door…and they were moved to pray.

A few hours later, I went back to the house at the break of dawn. I noticed several large electric company trucks, policemen and firemen outside. The telephone pole was about to fall and was literally a few feet away from falling on my vehicle. Part of the roof and some other debris was on the ground in front of my house. So, I asked the police officer if I could go inside. He asked me why I wanted to go inside, and I told him that this was my home.

The police officer checked with the power company worker nearby, and he said, “Man, you are lucky you weren’t in that house last night. You could have been killed!” I told them that I was in the house, and about the knock, and the rest of my experience. They looked at me, and at the house, and said, “Man, someone is looking out for you!” They let me go inside to get my keys and wallet. They helped me push my bedroom door open and even helped me find my keys (the room looked like a disaster area). They asked me if I go to church here, and I said yes. One of them said that he thinks that he needs to start attending right away. He started attending that Sunday morning and was still attending when I moved.

I later found out that a tornado had hit my home, the mall across the street (damaging and pulling off part of the roof) and it also damaged several homes and businesses along the path. Damage wasn’t too severe (compared with major tornadoes)…and no one lost their life. Two of the church’s signs were destroyed and a few cars, mobile homes and the occasional roof were damaged.

So, yes, I do know that God can protect people during a storm. Now, I have thought about the events of that day many times since. Why did God allow the storm to hit? He is omnipotent and could have easily calmed the storm. However, I have never once accused God of having formed the storm. Moreover, I concluded that God’s ways are much higher than my own – and that I shouldn’t theorize WHY such things happen. I should simply and wholeheartedly serve God regardless of any circumstances. One interesting effect is that I am less frightened by my circumstances. If the Lord would protect me from a tornado by a knock on my door, then I am confident that He will protect me for His good purposes. I am the clay; He is the potter. This event allowed me to realize just how well He directs my steps.

By the way, that particular tornado formed when a powerful cold front swept through Texas (where I was living at the time) during a period of very warm weather. In other words, it was a typical tornadic weather phenomenon that occurs when cold air slams into warm air. However, I am keenly aware that God is NOT bound by the order that He created in regard to nature, physics, or other sciences. Those things are obedient to Him and not the other way around.

If I was in Joplin and the tornado missed my house and hit the neighbor’s home and led to their death, I would have wept. You see, I know where I am going when I die. To live is Christ – but to die is gain! Death has lost its sting and victory. An eternity with Christ is something to look forward to when we know that we will ultimately break this shell of humanity and be united with Him. However, the thought of a neighbor dying without Christ would be the ultimate tragedy.

Again, I am a bit concerned that some might meander into the same sort of unprofitable pondering and assumption that Job did when provoked by his “friends.” We should not pretend to know and understand all of the ways of God. Some of those things just will never make sense to us on a cognitive level – because they are too wonderful for us. However, we can rest assured that nothing escapes God’s oversight. During the first six days of creation, He set the world to an order that He designed. Yet, we know that He is not bound by that order. Many times, He intervenes on our behalf because He knows our needs (before we even ask) and often answers our prayers when we do not pray amiss.

The Lord bless you and keep you. I am praying for the people of Joplin, Oklahoma and other areas affected by such tragedy.

Chris, thank you for sharing that story. Those were good words, and I heard them, lots of people following this will read your words and not really hear them, but I did. Thanks brother, much love to you.

To be frank, if I were to read many of the posts on this forum without taking into account the people personally, this God you describe is ruthless, cruel and no one I would ever be interested in serving. But fortunately for myself, I understand that while God is sovereign and will do as he wills, he is good and he is love first and foremost.

Sometimes I feel we view God as a sick war mongering beast who enjoys taking human life, God the father is viewed properly in only one way friends, and that is through Jesus Christ, who was his perfect representation. Mercy triumphs over all, much love.

Lotis wrote:

he is good and he is love first and foremost.

Friend, with all due respect, the love of God is not the attribute that is most emphasized in God's Word. Rather, it is His holiness which is emphasized more than all other attributes. The holiness of God is the only attribute which is declared three times in a row. When Isaiah saw the Lord high and lifted up on His throne, he heard the seraphim call out to one another, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!" In Revelation we also read of John hearing the same declaration from the four living creatures.
Yes, God is love, but He is also holy and righteous and hates sin. The problem with emphasizing the love of God above all other attributes of God is that we get an incorrect view of who God is. Many today emphasize God's love to the extent of dismissing His holiness and righteousness and judgment against sin. And many create that kind of god in their minds to suite their sins, a god whom they are comfortable with. It is called idolatry, creating an idol, a false image of God in our minds.

Ginnyrose, OJ, and others who believe that God deliberately sent that storm to Joplin as a judgment to kill and destroy those people and their lives because of what Obama did or because of their own sins. I would like to clarify something that I didn’t get to do before I bowed out and since this thread has really increased I feel the need to state my understanding a little and leave it with you all to accuse or approve.

First of all I fear God above all and know that He is in ultimate control and can do anything He desires to do because he is God and is above all His creation. People need to fear, respect, and love Him supremely. I believe God has already judged the world according to Acts 17:30-31 (KJV) 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus said in Luke 13:1-5 (KJV) 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Also in Luke 9:53-56 (KJV) 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Let me say this again I know that God is in complete control but I also know he allows things to go on that is not to His liking but He puts up with it according to His long suffering and we are not to presume that just because something happens that we know God wanted to do this or that we know why he did it. We are not to speak for God in matters that are higher than our little finite being. We are also not to have a wrong spirit toward the calamities of others because we all are only saved by the grace of God.

Obviously God has not intervened to stop all the disasters many have experienced on a wide scale and He has his reasons, for Hs is God and He knows all His works from eternity and those that are not His works but allows them to continue until He completes His work of redemption.

Also I agree with Ron’s post.

There is much speculation in this thread, wouldn't you agree?

Wouldn't you also agree that even if Adam didn't originally have dominion "over all the earth", that things aren't the way they were originally intended to be? The whole of creation groans under the weight of sin and there is suffering and pain in the world as a result. This is why I say that when these things come upon the earth I don't think about God judging a particular people, but rather a deeper hatred for sin is stirred in me.

Read Job 38 and you will see that God controls all the elements

God's sovereignty over creation is not in question when we say that God in His sovereignty gave Adam dominion over His creation as he walked in subjection to God.

I also was blessed by your testimony Chris and agree that we should praise and thank God for His protection because it is only by His mercy and grace that we are even spared His judgment of our sins, and all because of Calvary and God's great Love to us in sparing not His own Son but delivering Him up for us all. How shall He not freely give us all good things because of His Son's sacrifice.

I also believe that wrath is being stored up for those who reject His Son and do not come to love the truth and they will be destroyed in the end. I just don't believe it's my place to judge why some people experience disasters and I will certainly not say that God specifically picked them out to kill or destroy them. I fear God too much and realized I deserve no better but am only spared by the mercy of God.

There is a difference in warning people than in casting judgment on people as being from God. I just don't feel like I have a right to be God's spokes person to represent Him in such a manner. If I am going to err I had rather it be on the side of Grace and mercy than judgment.

James 2:8-13 (KJV) 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Blessings to you all!

The problem with emphasizing the love of God above all other attributes of God is that we get an incorrect view of who God is.

My image of God is Christ, as Hebrews 1 tells me he is. Christ is righteous and holy its oh so true, but I fear in our attempt to move away from a "Love without Holiness" God we have created a "Holiness without Love" God. The reality is he is Holy and he is Love, and that Holy Love is what drove him to the cross to make us righteous, what he did there on the cross was demonstrate his love for us the bible says. So yes he is Holy yes he is Righteous, but no, I would say the overarching greater emphasized attribute of God in EVERYTHING is his love.

Everything God does is deliberate, everything God allows is deliberate. Nothing is accidental and He is never caught napping where His children are concerned. We serve a deliberate God. I just wanted to say that I never said why God is allowing these storms because frankly, I don't know. He has not revealed that to me. A777

Thanks A777 for your clarification and honesty. I can appreciate it and also agree with it.

Blessings to you!

1. God did not intervene to stop these storms.
2. We are not hapless victims of circumstances or "nature".
3. Man does not view these storms as blessings. We don't know how God views them or what His many purposes are in allowing them.
4. There is a reason for everything that God allows.
5. Job did not view the natural elements that wreaked havoc on his family as blessings.
6. As Job says, "are we to take good from the Lord and not bad also?"
7. Job viewed all of the "natural" tragedies as coming from God's hand. The greatest power in this world is God. He can stop it but He chose not to. And, as Job says, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord."

Well said. I agree 100% because this is the way I understand scripture.

It is very hard for moderns to reconcile a loving Father with one who also can pour out wrath upon his creation. We think we need to understand his reasons and apart from it we will reject it.

Consider Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

When I was a little girl, my parents spanked me when I was naughty. Did I deserve it? At the time I sure did not think so, but they were certain I did and as a parent I know they were right - I did it likewise to my children.

As adults we think we are too big to be whooped but scripture does not say so. According to Hebrews 12 we will be chastened if we are His sons. If we experience no chastisement then we are bastards.

Now about the people at Joplin: do I think they were guilty of some horrific sin to justify such severe chastisement? I have no clue, however, given the nature of man, being carnal, I would guess God was being kind in not destroying every last one of them, but allowed them to be frightened so they will think of their own standing before God Almighty. AND it will also give His children opportunities to assist the survivors with their physical and spiritual needs.

We, too, experienced tornadoes on April 27 - we got word that one is headed our way and is scheduled to reach our town at 3:15 PM. What did I do? I ran: got in the car and got my husband and we were out of there. Later some folks saw three of them side by side in the field .75 mile from our greenhouses. And if it had touched down at our place? Well, several years ago one did, seriously damaged the one house.

And I still believe God is in control and that He uses disasters to teach people and draw them to himself.

My understanding...

Well, several years ago one did, seriously damaged the one house.

More comment about this incident.

My husband was at the GHs when he called and told me he wanted to go to the city and do I want to go along? Sure, it was raining but we decided to go because we knew there would be few customers given the circumstances.

After we got to the city, my BIL called and said there was a storm and that some of my husbands stuff is strewn out in the yard. It was getting late but it was still daylight when we came back. We were surprised at the site that greeted us. We were so thankful that we were not there. If my husband had been there his truck would have likely gotten smashed because the tree under which he parked it was uprooted and lying in the place his pickup usually is parked.

After seeing all this, we felt sure that the need my husband had in Columbus was divinely inspired to get us out of there.

My testimony..

ginnyrose

when did this happen, Ginnyrose? This last batch of storms?

I have no doubt it was Divine intervention. God works in wonderful ways.

Very glad you both went to town,
white stone

I would like to make a few comments pertaining to the current discussion. I am not sure what I am about to say could be organized into some kind of a three point teaching, but I think taken as a whole what I have to say is important to the discussion of not only this issue but many others. I ask each one of you to genuinely consider what I am about to say.

I find it interesting that Frank's observation that the Tornado had hit my town dead center so quickly turned into a deep discussion of God's sovereignty and God's judgment. I also find it interesting that the discussion has so polarized. First a few of my observations about the body of Christ (or maybe human nature) and then a few scriptural observations.

About why we believe the things we believe.

1. I have noticed a tendency of believers to align themselves with particular teachers or groups of teachers that they are exposed to. There are a lot of motivating factors that I have seen for why Christians do this.
a) They were saved "under" or brought up as a child "under" a particular person or group. That which we first learn either as a new convert or as a child is often very powerful. We see this as the truth and anything else as a departure.
b) They react to a particular point of view because of a bad experience. For example, suppose a person fellowships in a Word of Faith church that is off in what they believe. Suppose in a time of great personal tragedy (illness, loss of child, or whatever) this person experiences this group confronting them and telling them that if they had only had more faith their circumstances might have changed, but because they did not that they were sinning and did not get the answer to their prayer. This person might as a result allow the pendulum to swing and adopt a sovereignty doctrine that is the polar opposite of the WoF teaching that so hurt them.
c) Some seek teachers that agree with them. (the itching ears syndrome if you will.)
d) Any other motive than careful study of the Word of God and prayer.

Paul speaks very plainly about aligning ourselves behind any teacher. "I believe it the way so-and-so teaches it", is a statement that puts us squarely in the same place as those in the Corinthian church that Paul rebukes. God has placed teachers in the body to mature the body and bring it into a place of ministry and fruit bearing. We are to learn from and honor these people, but we are not to be part of a "following" of any particular teacher. Test ALL things and cling to the good. As a teacher I will not always get it right. I cringe sometimes at the things I have taught only to learn that I was dead wrong about the issue. Because of this I have a lot of patience and understanding when someone honestly has it wrong. What I do not have patience for is someone who is determined to have it wrong and will defend "his" interpretation to the death whether it mean twisting scripture or not. We must be humble enough to allow others to sharpen us.

2) I have noticed a tendency to polarize on issues. I am honestly not certain why this is the case. It is almost as if the majority are either Calvinists or Deists. Of course I overstate that a little bit but you get the point. But each group has their proof texts and practically ignores the remainder of scripture. I have seen whole teaching ministries built upon a particular, and often shaky, interpretation of a half-dozen or so scriptures. Soon there are very large groups of people who can see nothing in scripture but this interpretation.

That being said it seems to me this discussion is now centered on the doctrine of sovereignty and the judgments of God. A few observations.

1) The term "sovereign" is technically not in scripture, and certainly not in the way it is often defined today. Many modern translations do include the word "sovereign" but it is most often attached to or replaces the word "LORD".
Example:
Act 4:24 (KJV) And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:24 (ESV) And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
The addition of the term "sovereign" is inexplicable to me other than the translator had an a priori commitment to a doctrine that influenced the translation. A very literal translation would be to replace the term "LORD" with the term "Master" which I believe is a very good translation.

Where people often use the word "sovereign" in some translations of scripture it is often assigned a definition that is a lot like, "The one who controls every aspect of His creation at all times". In reality the term often translated sovereign simply means the one who answers to no one. He is the absolute authority, the one who is above all others. The term itself does not speak of the level of control He exercises at any one time.

So we are left with the concept of sovereignty and what scripture says about it. We must rightly divide scripture and we must stop short of reading into scripture what is not explicit.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. Lets use the example of child-birth. Some would say that in His sovereignty God causes or allows (I won't get into the nuances of these terms. People have argued incessantly about it and I am not interested in that.) babies to be born with birth defects for some purpose known only to Himself. This is a good example because it has SO much emotion attached, and we often lose sight of scripture or interpret it wrongly when we are overwhelmed by emotion.

We cannot say clearly from scripture that God does this. The closest we can come is perhaps Job's comments in Job 31, but if we read in context we find that God was not inspiring Job to say those things, so we have only Job's opinion. The next might be David in Psalm 139 about God knowing us before we were born. But this scripture does not say that God intends for some to be born with defects. We do know that sin entered into the human race and death by sin. We do know that birth defects are most often a result of defective genes. We might ask about rape? What of those births? Was it God's will that the mother be raped so that the child might be born? If we adopt a view that God in His sovereignty willed this to be the case then we must accept that the rape was also God's will, or we must search for a way out of that predicament. In the New Testament we find Jesus healing the sick and saying that He was doing the work of His Father. We find Him bearing stripes for our healing just as sure as He shed blood for our sin.

So we cannot say by an honest look at scripture that God wills sickness on people as an act of His sovereignty. However we also cannot say that God NEVER used sickness as a form of judgment. However in EVERY case in the New Testament where God did this the person in question was taken out of the way for a particular reason. Herod, for example, was persecuting the church. God removed Him from that place in an act of judgment.

But now we must define judgment because this too has many meanings. I once heard a person speak of EVERY act of God as His "judgments", i.e. the expression of sovereignty. So they simply define judgement as sovereignty. But Herod experienced final judgment.

As to 1 Cor. 11 we must also talk about what it does and does not say. It does pronounce a judgment on those who count the sacrifice of the body and blood an unholy thing. This is reinforced in Hebrews 10 (scripture interpreting scripture). It does NOT say that God places sicknesses on His children at certain times unknown to us for the purpose of perfecting us. It does NOT say that God will cause us to have a car wreck or send a tornado to Joplin in judgment.

But what about the Old Testament? We know that God dealt with man in a different manner before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament shows us plainly that there is an aspect of God that passes judgment and condemnation in a totally righteous and Holy way. But the New Testament tells us that God deals with man today primarily in grace.

Look at Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
This is what God is doing now. We all in ourselves deserve to be destroyed, and why not by a tornado, but God is longsuffering. He is not willing that any should perish eternally and we know that to perish temporally without Him is to perish eternally.

2) We cannot say from scripture that God controls all events. We can throw about statements like "Either He is in total control or He is not in control at all, or, If He is not in total control He is not really God." But scripture has many examples where God was NOT in control. One notable example is when Jesus could there do no mighty works save healing a few sick folks due to the unbelief of the people. He was not in control, not because He did not have the power and not because it was not His place as God to do so, but because He had placed the response of faith in our hands and He cannot violate His own word to His creation. God is not in control of the trees. Why? He put the ability to produce seed and reproduce in them from creation. Trees simply do what they were pre-programmed to do. I believe it to be the same with sperm and egg. There is a physical law. However humanity is different in that we are all born with a spirit that can know God. But we cannot simply say God controls it all as we have scripture to the contrary that must be twisted to say otherwise.

I guess all that was to say that I do not believe at all that this was a judgment on Joplin. You know, if I really believed that I would neither lift a finger to help those people nor would I pray for them. It would be insanity on my part to stand in opposition to the judgment of God. The most I might do is pray that God suspend His judgment and hope He would forgive me for praying such a thing.

I believe it to be a natural phenomenon that is a result of weather patterns that have been crazy since the time of the flood and a random event. I do believe that we will see such phenomenon increase in the near future as I believe we are on the threshold of Christ's return and that the birth pangs are increasing. Creation is truly groaning and trevailing.

By the way, I do believe we can have an effect on the weather through prayer. Has that also not happened scripturally?

Might I be wrong in anything I have just said. ABSOLUTELY. Were I given a lifetime to study I could never understand all things. But I know we MUST approach scripture with no pre-determined outcomes and allow scripture to interpret scripture.

Just some thoughts. I am not really interested in debating. I just present this as something I hope you will chew on and consider. I will also consider what I have read and struggle with it a bit. I have spent many hours in prayer and in the word struggling with similar issues over the course of the past year.

Blessings from Joplin. Pray for the people here. I know so many who have lost all. I hope to spend Saturday combing debris with some of them and feeding those who are combing through the wrecks of their own homes a hot meal. Perhaps I will be able to pray with some and comfort them. We continue to have rain and thunderstorms on an almost daily basis since the storm. The weekend holds hope for sun. Pray for good weather.

Travis

ginnyrose: I have so many Christian friends who were spared in pretty miraculous ways. One of them was in the cooler at the Dillon's grocery. I know CNN interviewed some about that particular incident. Others were not at home. Others were trapped for a time in the ONLY spot in the rubble where one could have survived. One was in a car and was hit dead center. She was only bruised but her car was totally destroyed. God does protect us when we walk with Him.

The time our GH took a hit was a few years ago. It was not horrible, but bad enough that one house had to be replaced. Of course, there were trees uprooted but that is minor - if no vehicle was parked under it!

And the one a few weeks ago did not hit us but did some damage out in the countryside. The one that went over our town is the same one that destroyed a shop, plowed a field, and removed some asphalt from a road about 15 miles southeast of town. These pics were shown on the internet, not sure if it was CNN or weather dot com.

When you live in a place where the weather can turn nasty, you learn that you just have to trust the LORD for your protection. In doing so you become aware how limited you are in providing for your own safety. And this is NOT bad - one has to trust the LORD and when he sends challenges like this your way it is for our own good.

It was so inspiriting to ask people after April 27's tornadoes "where were you when the tornadoes hit?" You hear many stories of God's protection and they were all grateful.

Personally, I find it gratifying to hear these testimonies. Don't you?

ginnyrose

EDIT: I also find it fascinating to ask our customers about the failed prophecy spoken by Camping last Sat. Interestingly, this prophecy tends to anger people! They are so thoroughly disgusted!

Hi Brother OldJoe (and others),

I would like to point out something regarding the examples mentioned from Scripture where God dispensed supernatural judgment. We all know that God chastises those He loves. But I would like to point out that there is a very big difference between spanking a child and killing a child. We have no record in Scripture where God killed the righteous or poured out His wrath upon them. In fact, we see quite the opposite.

God protected Noah and his family. God supernaturally protected the Israelites who were under the blood of the lamb. God told Abraham that He would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah if only ten righteous had been found (and that was under the OLD covenant)!

But, the overall point that I have been trying to make is that it is merely an assumption to say that this tornado was the wrath of God being supernaturally and specifically poured out upon the people of Joplin, Missouri or their homes and livelihoods.

More importantly, I have to wonder whether or not this is an assumption that believers should even be entertaining. After all, Job's friends did the same thing. They tried to ascertain the causes of the bad things that were happening to Job. Finally, God confronted Job and asked who it was that "darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-2).

Speaking of Job: It was not God who poured out judgment or wrath upon Job. Satan asked for permission to afflict him. God said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12) -and- "Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6). The next verse says, "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown" (Job 2:7).

In the example of Job, I wonder if his wife's advice to "curse God" may have had something to do with blaming his afflictions specifically on God.

So where did they go then? Heaven should be the assumption. Fancy judgment that is huh??? Left a sin-cursed world to go to heaven, shame on that bad God for doing such a thing.

I think that is obvious. The question isn't WHERE believers go when they die, but whether or not God purposely killed those believers (or destroyed their belongings) in a supernatural act of wrath. Indeed, the question is whether or not we should even try to voice a conclusion about it.

When the tornado hit my house, I wondered about the possible reasons behind it. It wasn't long before I stopped trying to "guess" or even draw a definitive conclusion (or even assign blame to myself, the church, the town or even God). There was certainly good things that came out of my own experience. At least one man (and his family) are serving God from it. The Church was able to collect insurance on the parsonage, property and signs. But, it just wasn't my place to guess or even waste time making assumptions or guessing causes/reasons.

Didn't Ravenhill just die a few weeks ago, as a lawbreaker no less? Not wearing his seat belt he died, but his wife wearing hers lived. What did he lose, a bit of his reputation in dying as a lawbreaker, but what did he gain? By all accounts here he should have gained heaven. Who was the judgment on because of his death? Possibly him for disdaining the laws designed to protect his life, but more probably a bunch of people who no longer get to be affected by him in person.

I'm not certain if we know whether or not Brother Wilkerson's seat belt was off at the moment of the crash (or if it came undone during the crash or immediately thereafter). An investigation will be completed, and even that might not provide the full truth of that matter. So, I think that it is premature to call David Wilkerson a "lawbreaker" in that regard. I certainly think that it is unwise to assign the blame for that crash (and Wilkerson's death) on God.

We can all agree that God oversees this world. He set the order for it during the first six days of Creation -- and then rested from His work. He is not bound to that order...or the laws of nature and physics. Those things are accountable to Him and can be ignored at His discretion. I just think that believers need to be very careful about publicly proclaiming each and every storm, hurricane, tornado or car accident as God's "judgment" (in the connotation of divine "wrath"). It might not be the best thing to attribute something as a supernatural judgment of God -- and later find out that it wasn't exactly as we proclaimed it to be.

I watched the news today and they said 124 confirmed deaths. I didn't hear the number of unaccounted for in Joplin. Definitely keep praying for the families in Joplin.

Friday, January 28, 2011

God, Judgment and the Weather: The Message
By Dr. David R. Reagan

I believe the message of Katrina is that God is on His throne. God is in control. He cannot be mocked. He will not tolerate the division of His Holy Land, nor will He tolerate gross immorality that mocks everything that is moral and decent.

God loves our nation. He has blessed us today more than any other nation, but the Word of God says to those to whom much is given much is expected. And, the Word of God says God disciplines those whom He loves.

Another thing God's Word makes clear is that when He sends discipline, the fundamental purpose is never to punish. Let me emphasize it, when God sends discipline as remedial judgments, His fundamental purpose is never to punish. His fundamental purpose is to call us to repentance so that we might be saved. Here is the way Isaiah puts it in Isaiah 26:9, "When the earth experiences your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."

I know that verse first hand because when I was fifteen years old growing up in Waco, Texas we had a tornado. It was the worst tornado in the history of Texas to this day. It was like an atomic bomb went off in downtown Waco. That tornado killed more people than in any other tornado in the history of Texas. It killed 114 and injured over 597. What I noticed for the next three months there was standing room only in every church in town because these disasters have a way getting peoples attention and getting them focused on an eternal perspective. The only problem is that due to our fallen nature it only lasted about three months and then people began to forget and the church attendance began to fall off.

With regard to the spiritual impact of Katrina, I think it's interesting that the governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco, called for a statewide day of prayer. She said, "As we face the devastation wrought by Katrina, we search for those in need as we comfort those in pain, and as we begin the long task of rebuilding we must turn to God for strength, hope and comfort." Those are noble words, but I want you to notice something, she made not one statement about repentance.

President Bush issued a Presidential Proclamation calling for a National Day of Prayer on September 8. He asked the nation to pray for the victims and to reach out to them in compassion. Again, those are noble words, but there was no expression of repentance.

New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas claimed the closest of all public officials in recognizing that Katrina had a spiritual message. On national TV he said, "You know, this all reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah, and I'm beginning to believe that God has a message for us that maybe he's cleansing us." But, cleansing requires a response of repentance, something God is calling for from the whole nation and not just from the city of New Orleans.

No public official in our history has yet seen the spiritual implications of a disaster as clearly as did Abraham Lincoln when he evaluated the cause of the Civil War. In a proclamation which he issued on March 30, 1863, the President called for quote, "A National Day of Prayer and Repentance." He made this comment, "In so much as we know that by His divine law nations like individuals are subjected to punishment and chastisements in this world. May we not justly fear that the awful calamity of Civil War which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a people."

Lincoln continued by saying, "We have been the recipients of the choices bounties of heaven, we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown, but we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied, enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all our blessings were produced by our superior wisdom and virtue." Lincoln then ended it with these words, "Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self sufficient to fill the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to God that made us. It behooves us to then humble ourselves before the offended power to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness."

That's the kind of proclamation we need today! But, the sad thing is we have become so secular and so pagan that if our President were to issue such a proclamation today, I have no doubt that someone in Congress would issue an indictment of impeachment for the violation of Separation of Church and State.

We as a nation have set our jaw against God. We are tempting Him to move us from judgment to destruction. Our God is merciful. He is patiently sending us one wakeup call after another. He never pours out His wrath without warning.

I want to call you to prayer. Pray that our eyes will be opened. Pray that our hearts will be melted. Pray for a national revival. Pray, too, for the hearts of our leaders to be opened to the significance of Israel in Bible prophecy.

Well, for whatever it is worth, a couple of days before the tornado hit Joplin, the LORD had me take note of where twayneb lived and what his real name was. There is no reason that I can think of as to why I would do this. When I read Joplin, MO I thought "well that is good to know, in case there is a tornado or something."

On Sunday I was busy all day because I had guests coming so I was unaware of any storms brewing. It was just before 6:00 pm when I checked my computer and noticed storms around Joplin. My guests arrived just as I saw the report that there was a tornado spotted in the Joplin area so I prayed for Travis and shut down my computer.

It was about 10:00 pm before I was able to check my computer again and I was astounded that a tornado had gone through Joplin. That is why I was so concerned that Travis be found - the LORD had put him on my watch and I was concerned that I had not done everything that I should have - that I had put my needs first and not covered him in prayer as much as I should have.

Praise God Travis was spared. My prayer now is that the LORD will use him as a living testimony and many will be brought into the Kingdom as a result.

It is very clear that judgment has come upon America - just as she deserves. It has only just begun. The only question that remains is, will she repent?

Hi Joe,

"...God purposely killed those believers..."

"Yes He did..."

This is quite a statement. I just think that we need to be extremely careful about proclaiming such an assumption with infinite authority.

This is what YOU keep adding. But what I keep telling you is that sometimes death is an act of wrath and other times it is an act of mercy. Some in that tornado will have been dealt with in wrath and others in mercy. Some outside that tornado will have been dealt with in wrath and others in mercy as well.

I previously asked about whether or not the word "judgment" was using the connotation of "wrath." Whether or not some believe that ALL of the deaths in this specific tornado were the result of "wrath" or "mercy," the point is that some have implied that this was God's judgment upon the people of this small town in the sense that, as you agreed, God killed these people.

I have never seen an anecdote in Scripture where God killed His people -- even out of "mercy." In fact, the Scriptures are clear that it is Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy. To the contrary, Jesus healed ALL who were sick and oppressed of the devil.

By what I have read, it seems like individuals think that there is no set "order" to nature -- including weather, gravity, physics, biology, etc... I have met people who think that God is PRESENTLY determining every single drop of rain, thunderstorm, snowflake, etc... For them, when a blizzard, heat wave or hurricane happens, it must have some underlying spiritual meaning to it (more than the obvious "order" by which God designed the world).

Today, a tornado occurred in a rural area of northern California. It didn't strike any homes or farms. It didn't strike any farm animals. No property was reported to be damaged. It mostly occurred on some dirt. I wonder where some would suggest the underlying spiritual blame for it lay? Why did a tornado hit a rural area in northern California affecting, well, almost nothing -- but a tornado hits a small midwestern town and destroys 75% of it and kills more than 120?

Of course, this isn't something that I would even want to ponder -- because I don't want to find myself in the same boat as Job's friends. They were trying to suggest the causes or assign blame for Job's predicament. In the end, they only succeeded in "darkened counsel by words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-2). The Lord rebuked Job...illustrated to Job his lack of wisdom by asking a series of questions...and then Job repented of trying to second guess the motives and rationale of God. I just don't want any of us to fall into the same vice as Job's friends (or Job himself).

I would rather live in a tornado sent by God (and I do) than wander through a life subject to the chance and whim of nature or some other such thing.

No one is saying that we "wander" through a life subject to the chance or whim of nature. I have stated repeatedly that nature is simply the ORDER by which God assigned this world. If you jump out the window, you WILL fall to the ground by the order of gravity (which God designed). If you place your hand on the stove, it WILL be burned because of the order of biology and physics (which God designed). If you place water in the freezer, it WILL freeze because of the chemical order that God designed. This isn't "chance" -- it is design. It is cause and effect. When a cold air mass collides with a warm air mass, tornadoes happen. Why? God designed the world that way.

Now, God can certainly supernaturally bypass any of those laws of order (nature) that He designed for this world. After all, Jesus walked on water. But like someone here at SermonIndex pointed out, most of the time, Jesus took a boat.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that we wander aimlessly through this world. After all, the steps of the righteous are ORDERED of God. However, sometimes those steps are prompted supernaturally (like when I heard a knock on my door as I lay in bed just before a tornado struck my house). At other times, we simply walk and trust that God is leading us.

I do hope that I am not sounding contentious with your opinion for the purpose of being contentious. I just want to urge caution when it comes to publicly proclaiming a tornado as a divine act of judgment to kill off 124 or more people (men, women, children, believers and unbelievers). Yes, God saw it all unfolding. God could have stepped in (and, perhaps, DID step in for some). However, just about a week ago, our local weatherman said that a front that caused very cool air here in California was going to head east and might cause some violent storms and tornadic activity.

This radio weatherman was no "prophet" -- at least not any more than how Jesus mentioned that men can predict the weather by looking at the color of the sky. The weatherman simply understood natural weather phenomenon -- which is simply done by studying the physical order that God designed for this world.

Now, I believe that God can use all circumstances -- good and bad -- for His good purpose. After all, ALL things work for the good of those who are in Christ Jesus. We are promised tribulation in this world...and we should cheerfully expect it (and even be prepared for it) because Christ overcame the world. The people of Joplin experienced tragedy and tribulation of epic proportion...and it is my earnest prayer that some good will come out of it for God's glory.

Another thing God's Word makes clear is that when He sends discipline, the fundamental purpose is never to punish. Let me emphasize it, when God sends discipline as remedial judgments, His fundamental purpose is never to punish. His fundamental purpose is to call us to repentance so that we might be saved. Here is the way Isaiah puts it in Isaiah 26:9, "When the earth experiences your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."

Here is an example of what I am talking about. Lets use the example of child-birth. Some would say that in His sovereignty God causes or allows (I won't get into the nuances of these terms. People have argued incessantly about it and I am not interested in that.) babies to be born with birth defects for some purpose known only to Himself. This is a good example because it has SO much emotion attached, and we often lose sight of scripture or interpret it wrongly when we are overwhelmed by emotion. We cannot say clearly from scripture that God does this. The closest we can come is perhaps Job's comments in Job 31, but if we read in context we find that God was not inspiring Job to say those things, so we have only Job's opinion. The next might be David in Psalm 139 about God knowing us before we were born. But this scripture does not say that God intends for some to be born with defects.

@ twayneb: what about the lad born blind in John 9, wasn'it for a specific purpose, namely the Glory of God??

I have so many Christian friends who were spared in pretty miraculous ways. One of them was in the cooler at the Dillon's grocery. I know CNN interviewed some about that particular incident. Others were not at home. Others were trapped for a time in the ONLY spot in the rubble where one could have survived. One was in a car and was hit dead center. She was only bruised but her car was totally destroyed. God does protect us when we walk with Him.

I believe it. To the one who experiences it it is a sacred memory.

In Nov. 2010 a tornado hit east of our town, totally destroying a mobile home - I mean it was not even there anymore! But it occupants survived with some scratches!

When things go well we take God for granted. But when things go bad and we experience divine intervention on our behalf, if just does something to the survivor. And God gets all the honor and glory!

Here is an extract from the last page of 'Did Moses see God?' in which philologos wrote:

Speaking of Philologos (Ron Bailey), he had written a very balanced tractate on this subject in the sermonindex forums. It is copied here:

http://biblebasesecondthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/01/tsunamis-earthquakes-genocide-and-love.html

Old Joe,

Your beliefs are simply Deism.

That is simply untrue. In fact, I would very much like for you to retract your statement. This sort of definitive statement when you are not (or cannot be) absolutely certain is just not what God has called us to.

It is ridiculous to imply that because I do not believe that God purposely and intentionally killed all of those people as an act of judgment -- and urged caution in claiming as much -- that you would equate that with "Deism."

The truth of God's Word is undeniably truth. However, your own interpretation about such things -- including that accusation that God poured out judgment upon Joslin, Missouri (apart from weather patterns that He set in motion at the beginning of the world) -- is merely an ASSUMPTION. From what I read in Job, this is what Job's friends did. They made ASSUMPTIONS to Job -- and he listened. God put an end to that nonsense when He questioned Job from the whirlwind...and made it clear to Job that his counsel had been darkened by the contemplative assumptions of his friends (Job 38:1-2).

You do not KNOW for a certain that God superseded the order of natural weather that He designed and supernaturally created this tornado as an act of judgment (to kill and destroy as either an act of wrath or "mercy"). If you say that you are 100% sure -- then I really don't know what to tell you.

It reminds me of those people who claim that we do not have "free will." God certainly guides are steps (especially of believers), but God has left up some things to us in this world that He created in six days. Some choose to partake in the pleasures of this world -- to do things that satisfy the lusts of their own sinful nature. This, of course, is sin.

God oversees all things. In addition, he intervenes on behalf of men who ask -- even though He knows what we need before we ask. If you are sick, you go to the elders of the Church. If you are hungry, you eat. If you need money, you work. Yes, God can (and sometimes does) provide the brook and send the ravens to feed us. At other times, the brook dries up. We then work for what we eat.

Be careful if you want, but I have infinite authority right here.

Isa 45:77 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

How do you connect the dots between these verses and a public proclamation that God ignored the weather order that He designed at Creation in order to form a tornado and KILL the people of Joplin (*and destroy 75% of the town) as an act of judgment?

This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word. I imagine that people like Harold Camping and others -- who proclaim dates for specific judgment -- feel that they also have "infinite authority." It is easy to prove them wrong when the dates come and go. But, such false-prophets continue to make additional claims and fully believe that people will embrace what they say.

Still, I see no true examples from the Word of God to support a claim that God supernaturally pours out death and destruction upon His own people. This is especially true for the New Covenant under which we live. On the other hand, God has historically withheld His judgment upon believers -- even saying that He would have saved Sodom and Gomorrah if just ten righteous had been found there.

Moreover, your Wikipedia definition of "Deism" is a bit far reaching. There are many believers who are NOT "deists" who believe that God set the world in motion at Creation (designing the order pertaining to it) and directly intervenes on behalf of mankind. That is the very basis of PRAYER. Such intervention is the reason that we are prompted to "ask, seek and knock" (Matthew 7:7-8). As I have stated repeatedly in my posts, God constantly intervenes in this world. That intervention was demonstrated to me personally when I heard a knock at my door just before a tornado hit my home. I have had many other instances of God's intervention -- so it isn't even a concept in dispute.

The question in regard to your posts is whether you are saying that God actively controls all things at all times and never set an order to the world that He created. If this was so true -- then how do you explain the laws of gravity, the length of a day, etc...? Why did Jesus tell people that men can see a red sky and predict the weather if there was no order to it? Why is it that gravity works 100% of the time? That "order" that God created is observed on a daily basis! The understanding of that order -- and those laws -- is how the very computer that you are using was designed!

There have been individuals who grew very fat because they proclaimed God as controlling their weight! While I have no doubt that God can supernaturally intervene and make a person thin and healthy, the principles of biology that God set in order shows that a person who chronically eats too many cookies and does not exercise will gain weight. If I run, I am not demonstrating a "lack of faith" that God will supernaturally keep me healthy. It is simply that I understand that it profits me to burn off fat and work my joints.

Yesterday, a man expecting Harold Camping's "rapture" died. Why? He thought that he could either swim or walk across the water of a lake -- even though he couldn't swim. So, he tried to do it TWICE. The man came from Florida to Northern California for the "rapture," but he wasn't aware that the water temperature here is quite cold. So, he tried...twice...and died. His actions caused his own death.

http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_18140764

I am not saying this in order to condescendingly "prove" a point -- but I simply would like to point out that the order for which God created the world is observed all around us. In fact, God gave us dominion over this world after He created it (Psalm 8).

This order for which God created the world (and the universe) is how we can make determinations about many physical things. It is how the weathermen are able to tell us what type of weather we will have today or tomorrow with striking accuracy. It is the understanding that allows a farmer to plant a seed, water it, and see a harvest. Yes, God is ultimately responsible for it all -- and the world would fall apart without His guidance. However, the Sun will rise tomorrow because God designed it that way when He created the world (and set it on a 24 hour rotation).

Understanding that the world was set in motion at Creation is not a sign of Deism -- but a realization that God is the Creator who intrinsically designed the universe. If we need additional intervention, we specifically ask God through prayer. Otherwise, we have not because we ask not -- or that men ask selfishly according to their own lusts (James 4:3).

You sound like you have a problem with believers dying.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

On the contrary, brother. As I said before, I am keenly aware that "TO DIE IS GAIN" (Philippian 1:21). I am not afraid to die. My life is in the hand of God and He knows the number of my days. However, I also understand that "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." There is much work to be done here. The harvest is truly plentiful and the workers are so very few. Still, I just can't agree with a premise that God actively and supernaturally kills His own people -- either as an act of wrath or "mercy."

Somewhere, there will probably be some tornadoes today. I don't know whether those tornadoes will hit urban or rural areas. This summer, there will almost certainly be some hurricanes and tropical storms. The hurricane center is predicting quite a few. However, they aren't predicting them because they are "prophets." They are predicting them because there are hurricanes EVERY year...and they know that we are exiting what has been OBSERVED as a La Nina weather pattern. Each hurricane will likely spawn some tornadoes (or waterspouts). Someone might even die as a result of one of those tornadoes or hurricanes.

I just don't know if it is profitable to point the finger for each and every tragedy as an act of God.

This is what Job's friends did when they "darkened counsel with words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-2). They made assumptions where they pointed the finger at both God and Job as the causes and reasons behind his recent tragedies. Some of the things that Job's friends implied in their "words without knowledge" sound awfully familiar to what some have implied in regard to the tornado in Joplin. This is why I do want to urge caution.

Brother, I pray that I have not offended you with my words. That is not my motive or the purpose for which I responded to this thread. I just feel the weight of knowing that many people are reading what we write here on SermonIndex. Over the years, I have invited many people to this website. Every once in a while, someone will call me or email me and let me know that they had read something that I wrote. I never knew that some of those people ever visited the website. They don't sign up and post on the forums. However, they do read it. I can't help but wonder how many non-Christians visit this forum and read what we write. I know that we will all give an account to God for what we have written.

Again, I pray that you don't take offense to what I write. My prayer is that God will lead all of us to Truth in such matters and that we will continue to surrender ourselves to Him.

Hi RobertW (and Philologos),

Speaking of Philologos (Ron Bailey), he had written a very balanced tractate on this subject in the sermonindex forums. It is copied here:

http://biblebasesecondthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/01/tsunamis-earthquakes-genocide-and-love.html

"The words of Jesus in Luke’s gospel are an abiding warning against an understanding based on joining up the dots by the shortest possible route. The Luke 13 passage is instructive because it deals with both human culpability and natural disaster. In the first Pilate might have been blamed, in the second an earth tremor, but in both cases the Lord refuses to connect the disaster event with individual or group sin. This is important when we consider the 1986 Chernobyl Meltdown, the 2004 Tsunami or the 9/11 WTC implications. I will ask and answer my own question… “Do you suppose that the residents of Belorus and Ukraine, the Indian ocean seacoasts or the Haiti… were sinners above all… that they suffered such things?” “No, I don’t”. This may surprise and unsettle some of my friends but I am sure that these words in Luke are to prevent us making such connections. It is impossible to deduce cause from effect just by joining up the dots.

Such a deduction would need revelation as well as information. Some will claim such revelation and quickly defend their opinions, but I have no such revelation and in the absence of plain New Testament teaching cannot submit to these conclusions."

I feel that this is true and very well put.

Chris,

You said

You do not KNOW for a certain that God superseded the order of natural weather that He designed and supernaturally created this tornado as an act of judgment (to kill and destroy as either an act of wrath or "mercy"). . .

When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?' I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself

This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country. I believe it will get much worse than this and still people will not repent.

white stone

@ twayneb: what about the lad born blind in John 9, wasn'it for a specific purpose, namely the Glory of God??

looserchapel: I would encourage you to read and study that account very carefully. Although I am not a Greek scholar by any means, I believe the CEV probably translates it best. (CEV) "No, it wasn't!" Jesus answered. "But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him.

To interpret this scripture to say "God made him blind for a purpose" is to set this verse in opposition to the massive weight of NT scripture that clearly indicates that sickness and disease are the enemy of God and that Christ came to heal.

I can only find examples under the covenant of grace of God using or allowing sickness as a punishment that is condemnatory. Interestingly I never find a single case where it is redemptive. The only case that is used somewhat convincingly is 1 Cor. 11 and if you use Hebrews 10 as commentary and read it carefully you will find it applies only to the specific case of counting the blood and body of Christ as a common or unholy thing in communion.

I read every word of your excellent post, and was astonished by this one paragraph.

Alive to God: I believe if we are to make the statement that this was God's judgment on Joplin then we should allow God's judgment to have full effect. If you believe it is God's judgment then you must believe that there are no innocent victims.

Now in saying that we must agree on our definition of judgment. I believe judgement to be a just punishment for sin. In that case we should allow people to bear their punishment and to try to alleviate it would be to stand in the way of God's justice. I personally would not want to be guilty of that. Remember that in the Revelation John sees the people looking on at the judgement of God and agreeing that it is just and that the people being judged are being judged rightly.

If you say God's judgement is sent for the sake of driving people to repentance then I guess we would want to help out all we could. The only problem is that I find absolutely NO New Covenant evidence for this point of view so I do not apply this definition to the term judgement.

By the way, I have been out working tonight in the damaged area and I am amazed at what I see. Cars driving up and down the streets offering every imaginable type of food and water to the people working so hard to clean up and salvage what they have left. Pray for Joplin.

When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?' I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself

White Stone et. al.: There is coming a day of the release of the judgement of God on this earth. I believe it is coming very soon and the increase in natural disasters are the creation groaning and travailing, waiting and longing for the day of the Lord. When these judgements come there will be no doubt and I believe there will be no other chance. We do need to warn people of this coming judgement and beg them to repent before that great and dreadful day. In light of this I don't believe what we see now is yet that day. But it is coming!!!

Our hearts go out to those who lost thier lives and their homes in Joplin Missouri. There were innocent people that lost their lives, and there were many Christians that were protected. Many of the testimonies were on the national news. I do not believe that this was judgement against Joplin Misouri, but judgement against our nation.

Brothers and sisters, we need to watch and pray. These tornadoes are only the tip of the iceburg to what is coming. No one will be able to explain it off to natural weather phenomonem.

May the Lord raise up many intercessors that will stand in the gap, repent for our own sins and the sins of our nation, and cry out for mercy.

Mike

Hi White_Stone,

When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?'

No, I wouldn't. You see, those things mentioned in the Revelation period of God's wrath will DEFY the natural order for which God assigned this world. The events surrounding weather, earthquakes, and even the stars will all defy all notions of "order."

I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself, "This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word."

Now, that is quite specious. To be blunt, I am perplexed that some people are so convinced that God decided to supernaturally form a tornado with the purpose to KILL 125+ people in Joplin, Missouri as some sort of divine act of wrath (or murderous "mercy") -- that they would accuse those who disagree with such a notion (because we feel that it lacks Biblical merit) of either being a "Deist" or being prone to end-times deception to the point of lacking repentance. Those sort of insinuations lack merit.

As Brother Travis stated, those events of the Revelation WILL come to fruition. They ARE coming. However, this tornado was NOT one of those periods of wrath.

That time -- of God's wrath -- will be worse than any other time in history. However, the events of those day will not be the result of typical weather phenomenon. They will be the result of the wrath that God has stored up -- and will pour out upon the Earth. Entire portions of the Earth will be annihilated in an instance.

The unbelievers at that time who will not repent will likely fail to do so for the reasons stated in that same passage -- for the "worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

It is interesting that some people were saying the same sort of thing about Hurricane Katrina in 2005. When the next great storm or natural disaster takes place, they will probably repeat the same sort of "judgment" rhetoric. During college, I read some documents where some believers were saying the same thing during the 1830s when a couple of storms tore through the US and a major Leonid meteor shower took place. Abraham Lincoln was a young man at the time, and he later recalled that he was awakened by his landlord during the meteor shower and told that the "day of judgment" had come.

It isn't "scoffing" to urge caution about making such vast public proclamations. Rather, it is reminding individuals of the overwhelming importance of the situation. More importantly, it is perplexing that some people think that they are wise enough (spiritually) as to assign the blame or cause of a natural disaster as the divine work of retributive judgment from God. Like Philologos said in that article, it is akin to individuals connecting the closest possible dots. Thinking that it makes sense, they feel no hesitation about proclaiming it.

God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country.

How certain are you of this, White Stone? Is there any doubt in your mind that this particular tornado was an act of judgment upon that town (or this nation)? Or, to the contrary, is there any chance that this tornado was the result of the order by which God designed weather when He created the world?

Now, before anyone accuses me of using the same serpentine rhetoric that Satan used with Eve, I want to make it clear that I am simply urging caution while promoting a I Thessalonians 5:21 type of test. You see, this is my greatest concern in all of this. I am concerned that we are pointing an extremely implicatory accusation at the very heart of God.

Job's friends were filled with assumptions about the reasons why Job was suffering like he was. They imparted their notions about the reasons why Job was suffering and, unfortunately, Job listened to them. It took a truly divine confrontation by God to reveal just how little Job and his friends actually understood regarding such things. Thankfully, Job repented of trying to ascertain cause of blame for all of his trials and tribulations. As a result, God restored Job...and the latter part of his life was better than the first. However, it only came after Job had come to the realization of his own folly and repented accordingly. Job repented saying, "Therefore have I uttered that I UNDERSTOOD NOT; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" (Job 42:3).

One day, the wrath that God has stored up will be poured out. The great tribulation will be dispensed upon this fallen world. It will be unlike any time before it.

Until then, I would simply urge caution before trying to attribute each and every act as a judgment of God. If people attribute each and every car accident, storm, tornado, ship wreck, stomach flu, hurricane, disease, etc... -- as divine acts of judgment -- then people will be less prone to listen when REAL acts of judgment befall.

No one claimed God doesn't interrupt the natural order of things to create super-natural situations which in some cases means judgment. He also interrupts the natural order of things to do acts of mercy and kindness, such as healing someone who by all rights should be dead or saving a soul that by all rights was corrupted by sin and deserving of said judgment.

Can I ask an honest question, why were the people of Joplin judged and not the people in Washington DC? Why were 125+ families (probably your average middle class people...I don't know) who were simply trying to live their lives, judged and killed because of what a man in a suit decided thousands of miles away? God must have just been so enraged that he just threw these tornadoes down with reckless abandon like zeus on his cloudy throne, hitting what they may hit and killing who they may kill.

Hebrews 1 tells us exactly how God the father is, and that he was perfectly expressed in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ (last time I checked) took the judgement of the world upon himself, and thanks to him we are now in an era of mercy and rest, does that mean there won't be a day of judgement? No, of course that is coming and coming soon as I see it (but who knows, it's been coming soon for a few thousand years). We're under a different covenant now folks, but you would be hard pressed to see that in this thread...

white stone said: God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country.

chris replied: How certain are you of this, White Stone? Is there any doubt in your mind that this particular tornado was an act of judgment upon that town (or this nation)? Or, to the contrary, is there any chance that this tornado was the result of the order by which God designed weather when He created the world?

Chris, I am 100% certain the tornado was an act of God, NOT a random act of so-called nature.

When you say the acts which are foretold in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you say they will be beyond the 'natural order.' It appears to me as if God is conditioning the ungodly to accept bigger and bigger 'natural' disasters. There is little doubt in my mind that they will eventually accept a meteor strike that will wipe out a whole continent and still not give God Almighty credit or reverence - they will not repent.

I can see this Country marred by tornadoes and other disasters to the point it will appear as the background for the movie 'Mad Max' and people will still not repent. And as long as most of them still have their creature comforts they will not consider their ways. Perhaps it is a mercy of God to remove the creature comforts and bring the people to where they HAVE to lean on Him. If you think of that it is possible to view the tornado in Joplin and the others, as well, as a great blessing.

Until then, I would simply urge caution before trying to attribute each and every act as a judgment of God. If people attribute each and every car accident, storm, tornado, ship wreck, stomach flu, hurricane, disease, etc... -- as divine acts of judgment -- then people will be less prone to listen when REAL acts of judgment befall.

Chris, Chris, Chris, don't you see, to the one who these acts fall upon it is just that, an act of Judgment. Being in a life threatening car accident and being incapacitated for a long time gives a soul the opportunity to reflect on their life and their relationship with God. It is too easy to not reflect when there is a constant supply of food and comfort and entertainments. I do not pray for any accident to befall those for whom I pray but I pray God's will be done.

His perfect will is being carried out as I type, Praise Jesus.

white stone

Lets all pray that everyone gets in a terrible accident so they can reflect properly on their need for a savior? This is a sickening thought... We can't very well pray for the people of Joplin if it's God's judgment, and we certainly shouldn't send them aid, otherwise we would certainly be working against God and in danger of Judgment ourselves!

That is NOT what I said. You twisted my words?

Be careful, I'm praying for you.

ws

*removed*

Hi Frank,

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote: "They ARE coming. However, this tornado was NOT one of those periods of wrath."

appolus wrote: Thats a very bold statement, its as bold as saying that it was God, all the bolder because of the capital letters of the " NOT." It is strange to refute one emphatic statement with another, but it does bring clarity and men should be fully convinced of what they believe.

"those periods of wrath"

I was speaking of the bowels and trumpets of judgment mentioned in Revelation. This tornado was NOT one of those periods of God's wrath. I can say that boldly and firmly because the Book of Revelation is quite detailed regarding the events -- and events prior just haven't happened yet.

So, yes, it was a bold statement -- because it was NOT based upon an assumption. Moreover, I didn't make a claim about God killing people in Joplin, Missouri (just like I didn't make an assumption about God killing people in New Orleans/Mississippi during Hurricane Katrina). Now, I will be the first to pray that God will use any disaster to draw men unto Himself. However, it is a different thing to claim that God decided to supernaturally form a tornado and KILL, STEAL and DESTROY the people of Joplin.

This is why I have the concern that we might be meandering into the folly of Job's friends when we start assigning blame or a cause/effect relationship between this particular Joplin tornado (one of MANY on that day -- most of which did not kill anyone) and some motive by God to destroy the town and kill 125 or more of its people.

I hope that makes my comment a bit more clear.

No one responds to the question of why Joplin was judged for Washington's mistakes? Why is Obama alive (the apparent cause of all this) while families are crushed in JOPLIN, MO (a town I had never even HEARD OF before this). If tomorrow my house is destroyed in a storm is it because somewhere out there in America someone is sinning? Please people, this argument isn't even logical. Do you beat your child for your neighbors child's sin?

Under the Old Covenant God would have spared Sodom for TEN righteous, and now that we're under a NEW AND BETTER covenant of MERCY AND GRACE, he wont spare JOPLIN, MO (which I couldn't point to on a map) because of Washington DC's sin? SURELY you see how absolutely ABSURD this sounds at its core?

My concern here is that the god being lifted up in this thread is not Jesus. The majority of these posts are lifting up a murderous destroyer that looks absolutely nothing like Christ. My concern is that what we are promoting and projecting with this thread is a god who destroys small towns simply because he can, frankly I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence as to a REASON he would destroy Joplin, MO specifically.

This is not my Jesus, he will come one day riding a horse with a sword in his hand and there will be a great judgement where all men will give an account for what they've done. Today it seems at least so far, is not that day.

Hi White_Stone,

Chris, I am 100% certain the tornado was an act of God, NOT a random act of so-called nature.

Since you are 100% convinced, then there is no room in your mind for me to urge caution about blaming God or assigning a motive/cause/effect for this tragedy. As for some of us, we don't want to be guilty of making incorrect assumptions about the nature or heart of God.

After all, if this tornado was simply a terrible natural disaster that God did not supernaturally create (bypassing the normal order of weather) as an act of judgment -- then some people have unwittingly LIED about God (whether His motives, actions or character). That is dangerous ground for anyone to stand on, whether they are Job's friends or present day believers.

When you say the acts which are foretold in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you say they will be beyond the 'natural order.' It appears to me as if God is conditioning the ungodly to accept bigger and bigger 'natural' disasters. There is little doubt in my mind that they will eventually accept a meteor strike that will wipe out a whole continent and still not give God Almighty credit or reverence - they will not repent.

I can see this Country marred by tornadoes and other disasters to the point it will appear as the background for the movie 'Mad Max' and people will still not repent. And as long as most of them still have their creature comforts they will not consider their ways. Perhaps it is a mercy of God to remove the creature comforts and bring the people to where they HAVE to lean on Him. If you think of that it is possible to view the tornado in Joplin and the others, as well, as a great blessing.

I agree that, during the period of God's wrath, this world will be (as it is in the habit of) looking for answers and causes OUTSIDE of the truth of God's Word. I suspect that their hearts will be hardened by the very things mentioned in that passage previously mentioned (witchcraft, immorality, etc...).

However, the manner by which God pours out His wrath as recorded in John's Revelation is quite different from the normal order by which God designed this world. A third of the Earth will be destroyed...in a moment. There has NEVER been a weather pattern that has accomplished anything like that. A third of the stars will fall. That has never happened before. The moon will turn like blood. That doesn't sound like a typical reddish moon from an eclipse. Now, God could certainly use weather to accomplish some of those things. However, there isn't typical weather pattern on record as being violent or powerful enough to accomplish the things mentioned in Revelation. If it happened in such a manner, it would be a supernatural act of God where He bypassed the order of weather.

A tornado is NOT outside of normal order of weather. God certainly designed the order of this world. There are storms here on Earth...and even on Jupiter. I can't pretend to understand God's motives for such things...but just accept the fact that He is the Creator and that His ways are higher than mine.

There are typically about 1,200 tornadoes in the United States each year. This doesn't include many ocean/lake-based tornadoes (waterspouts) that never make it to land. Are we to assign blame for each and every one of those is part of the supernatural judgment of God -- even though most of them do not occur in populated areas or cause much damage or death? Or is it at all possible that they are the result of two converging fronts that produce storms? Remember: A tornado is produced by the SAME sort of weather effect as regular storm cells. However, the "supercells" that produce tornadoes come from weather fronts that are just a bit more powerful and bipolar (cold air v. warm air) and slam into one another.

Chris, Chris, Chris, don't you see, to the one who these acts fall upon it is just that, an act of Judgment. Being in a life threatening car accident and being incapacitated for a long time gives a soul the opportunity to reflect on their life and their relationship with God. It is too easy to not reflect when there is a constant supply of food and comfort and entertainments. I do not pray for any accident to befall those for whom I pray but I pray God's will be done.

White_Stone, White_Stone, White_Stone (I couldn't resist ;-)), I can see how God uses tragedies as means to draw men to Himself. However, it is a different thing to blame God for the affliction (like cancer), car accident, tower collapse, or tornado. If God were controlling each and every event in this world like that, then our free will means nothing. We have NO dominion over this world -- because God is pulling all of the strings all of the time. Every time I go fishing, it is God who puts the fish on my hook. I know that God CAN do it...but, you know, I still use bait. I have only caught one fish without bait.

In addition, if someone would assume that God is controlling the strings for everything in this world (and that there is no systematic order to Creation), then one would assume that God is ultimately responsible for EVERY death on this planet. You wouldn't fear holding a lightning rod in your hand and standing in an open field during a storm -- because the laws and order of nature are imaginary. Someone insinuated that God caused the accident of David Wilkerson as a divine act of judgment. In other words, the insinuation is that God killed him in an act of judgment.

However, the greater insinuation behind such a notion is that God must have done the same to ALL people who have ever been killed in traffic accidents around the world. Our auto, home, health and business insurance must be insurance against acts of God instead of weather, bad drivers, or sicknesses that come from living in this world. A fisherman doesn't need skill for his trade, because God is the one who places all of the fish in the nets.

Now, I am keenly aware that God can fill nets with fish (and He has done it), but it is not the "norm." In John 21:1-11, the fisherman were having a difficult time catching fish (just like before...when Jesus called them in Luke 5:1-11). Then, God supernaturally worked on their behalf -- bypassing natural order -- and filled their nets with fish.

Moreover, one would assume that sickness must also be the judgment of God. Yet when Jesus walked the Earth, the Bible says, "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him" (Acts 10:38). This passage indicates that those who needed healing were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL -- and not God. Throughout Scripture, we read of people who were sick and that Jesus indicated that it was Satan who had afflicted them (such as in Luke 13:16).

You see, I believe that Job was afflicted by Satan. After all, when God gave Satan permission to afflict Job, the Lord said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 1:12). Why did Satan need God's permission? Because God had protected Job by a "hedge" of protection. Why would God put up a "hedge" around Job if God's judgment was responsible for storms and other forms of affliction to begin with?

The entire gist of what I am saying -- and my motivation to risk the consternation and criticism of some here -- is to encourage caution. We should be very cautious before we go about assigning blame for tragedies on God. We should be extremely careful when we paint God's character under the New Covenant as being actively responsible for the killing of 125+ people -- men, women and children (at least one baby) and including believers and unbelievers.

I have been reading through the book of Job. The majority of that book is filled with the assumptions, insinuations and blame for God from Job's friends in regard to the tragedies that Job was experiencing (including a "mighty wind" that destroyed his house and killed his family in Job 1:18-19). They repeated some very familiar accusations against God -- and it wasn't until God confronted him that Job realized how inadequate He was to make or consider such accusations.

That is what I am encouraging. After God confronted Job about those assumptions and insinuations, Job repented. He said, "I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" (Job 42:3). We just need to be careful about assigning blame to God for tragedies like this as "acts of judgment."

Chris said:

This is why I have the concern that we might be meandering into the folly of Job's friends when we start assigning blame or a cause/effect relationship between this particular Joplin tornado (one of MANY on that day -- most of which did not kill anyone) and some motive by God to destroy the town and kill 125 or more of its people.

Standing upon one's faith and testifying of what one believes can not be considered meandering.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Everything that was made was made by Him. There is nothing that He can not do.

I believe he considers every believer and orders their path 24/7. Nothing happens by chance (or, as you believe, the natural order of nature) to a saint.

This tornado is only the beginning of what is to come. This is the Birth Pangs. It is you who are making light of this by passing it off as 'weather patterns.' You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.

ws

You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.

That is a mighty high horse you're riding White_Stone...

White_Stone,

Standing upon one's faith and testifying of what one believes can not be considered meandering.

I imagine that Job's friends felt that they were standing upon their faith and testifying of what they believed when they made assumptions that God was judging Job and had poured out that judgment upon Job's family, home and livelihood. I suppose that the only thing worse than not taking a stand is taking the wrong stand.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Everything that was made was made by Him. There is nothing that He can not do.

I believe he considers every believer and orders their path 24/7. Nothing happens by chance (or, as you believe, the natural order of nature) to a saint.

I didn't say that things happen by "chance." "Order" is not "chance." God set this world in order. If you don't believe it, go stand on the shore and watch the high tide roll in. You can assume that it is supernatural each and every day (that it happens like clockwork) or you can understand that God caused it in the sense that He designed the order to this world when He created it.

And yes, we are in the hands of God.

This tornado is only the beginning of what is to come. This is the Birth Pangs. It is you who are making light of this by passing it off as 'weather patterns.' You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.

First of all, I am NOT "making light of this." It was a tragedy for which I have spent much time on my knees praying for the people in Joplin. And you cannot rightfully accuse me of influencing people to "stay asleep" with my words. I am urging CAUTION. You, and a few others, are making an accusation about God. That is a VERY serious thing! You had better be 100% correct -- because an account of such magnitude will be called (just as every word that I say or type will be called for an account). I am simply encouraging caution before we proclaim God as the killer of the people of Joplin in some divine act of judgment.

AS for my "comfortable" life -- you do not know me enough to make such a judgment. You don't know the things that I have endured in my life. You don't know the times that I suffered physical pain or hungered. You don't know the time where I have been punched in the face for sharing Christ with others. You don't know the times where my life was threatened. You don't know the times that I walked through drug-infested inner city projects in order to share Jesus with the lost. So, before you go about proclaiming my need to "wake up" from a "comfortable life," you probably need to know me a little better.

Two of my favorite hymns are Fanny Crosby's "Take This World But Give Me Jesus" and Rhea Miller's "I'd Rather Have Jesus."

TAKE THIS WORLD BUT GIVE ME JESUS
by Fanny Crosby, 1872

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
All its joys are but a name;
But His love abideth ever,
Through eternal years the same.

Refrain

Oh, the height and depth of mercy!
Oh, the length and breadth of love!
Oh, the fullness of redemption,
Pledge of endless life above!

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
Sweetest comfort of my soul;
With my Savior watching o’er me,
I can sing though billows roll.

Refrain

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
Let me view His constant smile;
Then throughout my pilgrim journey
Light will cheer me all the while.

Refrain

Take the world, but give me Jesus.
In His cross my trust shall be,
Till, with clearer, brighter vision,
Face to face my Lord I see.

Refrain

I'D RATHER HAVE JESUS
by Rhea Miller, 1932

I’d rather have Jesus than silver or gold;
I’d rather be His than have riches untold;
I’d rather have Jesus than houses or lands;
I’d rather be led by His nail-pierced hand

Refrain:

Than to be the king of a vast domain
And be held in sin’s dread sway;
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today.

I’d rather have Jesus than men’s applause;
I’d rather be faithful to His dear cause;
I’d rather have Jesus than worldwide fame;
I’d rather be true to His holy name

He’s fairer than lilies of rarest bloom;
He’s sweeter than honey from out the comb;
He’s all that my hungering spirit needs;
I’d rather have Jesus and let Him lead

I would hope that we can tone this down a bit and ask that we try to focus on praying for the families of those that have been touched by this horrific tragedy. There are still families that have not been able to find their loved ones. Many of us are aware of the horror stories. Please remember to pray as well for the churches that were destroyed and their members homes. Our Indian Missions director of many decades, having built many churches on the reservations along with his wife lost near everything. Tremendous man of God. Please keep these and all the rest in prayer as they navigate this disaster.

Thank you, brother Robert.

I do hope that I haven't offended anyone for encouraging caution in this tragedy. At the same time, I agree that we should pray for the people of Joplin an the surrounding area. There are many hurting people right now.

On another forum a man from Joplin posted that they have been told the residents have 8 days to dig out all they can salvage and then the machinery comes in to move it all to the dump. It seems kind of cold to have such a short time limit but I imagine it is for health reasons more than anything else.

Personally, I could not watch the pile of debris that used to be my home get bulldozed. I hope they have set up at least tent cities for all those people. They do need our prayers and support more now than ever.

ws

I've been in touch with some people very close to the situation and I'm told they are trying to identify remains from DNA. On a national news level many of us saw the 18 year old boy was sucked from his vehicle through the roof as his daddy tried to hold his legs. He had just graduated and cannot find his body. A family of 5 are dead with mom 26, dad 28, and three kids under 10. A man died laying over his dear wife to save her life and died shortly after from his wounds. Our sister nursing home (to where I minister weekly) was destroyed to the ground and 11 dear residents were killed including a wife and husband in their late 80's. For those that feel inclined, you can take a look at this map of the dead. It puts names on the numbers. May the Lord stir compassion in our hearts.

http://www.news-leader.com/interactive/article/20110523/MISC/110523058/Interactive-Map-Joplin-Tornado-Damage

A brief word and an update.

I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement on the cause of this disaster and whether there was a purpose behind it. Much of how we see this issue is so deeply rooted in us that we have a difficult time considering the other view. Perhaps we will not come to a total agreement on the subject. Remember the point in discussing it at all is so that we can wrestle with it in our own hearts, not wrestle with other believers over what we are convinced we understand. I have wrestled with this topic a lot over the past 10 years or so. I have listened to both sides. I am not TOTALLY convinced of my own stand, although there are some things I have spent a lot of time in prayer and study over and believe I am on the right track. Ultimately though I stand before God not so much about my doctrinal interpretation of the scriptures surrounding this topic but rather whether I have been a man who is totally sold out to knowing my heavenly Father and have my life hid with God in Christ. These topics are important as is all doctrine, but if I become contentious or despise my brother or cause others to stumble because of my own arrogance or stubbornness then I have missed it royally. (I am not accusing a single individual in this forum of stubbornness or of arrogance. I just understand what I have been tempted with and think I am not an exception to the human condition.) I have never met the brothers and sisters with whom I communicate on this forum, but I can truthfully say that I have grown in my faith through even this limited contact. Thank you all for your concern about my safety. Thank you even more for your prayers. I was six blocks from this tornado as it passed. God is indeed good!!!

Update:

My son was involved in search and rescue and works at a local hospital. From what he and others have told me the "official" death toll is very low compared to what will eventually be released as the final death toll. I hope to be wrong but I would not be surprised to see it double. It now stands at over 130. My brother is a foreman with the local power utility and he said the power workers have found...please don't think me gruesome. I write this through tears...little pieces of people among the wreckage of a substation. This is the reason for DNA identification. You get the idea. This tornado churned at 20 mph across town with 200+ MPH winds.

There have been rumors about the dozing of the neighborhoods. I am sure this must start soon as the town is beginning to stink (literally). We have had one dry day since the tornado and the water soaked debris is going to be a major health issue I am sure. Really it is necessary and best if it happens soon.

The outpouring of support for the city from the body of Christ around the country had been outstanding. I see teams of people simply walking up and down the streets offering help to anyone they come in contact with.

I am sure everyone has seen many pictures and videos from the aftermath. The national weather service office in Springfield, MO has a link to satellite imagery of the damage path in high definition photos. It is worth looking at.

The stories are endless and alternate between tragic and inspiring. We are so accustomed to tornado warnings here that we often ignore them. I can recall several times being awakened by a siren, glancing out the window, and going back to sleep. This time it seems God put a sense of urgency in the hearts of so many people including me. Call it the operation of the word of knowledge or word of wisdom. Call it God simply laying something on your heart. Call it what you will but God spoke to may Christians and told them, "Pay attention to this one." He saved so many lives of people who listened to Him. Praise God!!!

Bless you all!

"These topics are important as is all doctrine, but if I become contentious or despise my brother or cause others to stumble because of my own arrogance or stubbornness then I have missed it royally. (I am not accusing a single individual in this forum of stubbornness or of arrogance. I just understand what I have been tempted with and think I am not an exception to the human condition.) I have never met the brothers and sisters with whom I communicate on this forum, but I can truthfully say that I have grown in my faith through even this limited contact. Thank you all for your concern about my safety. Thank you even more for your prayers. I was six blocks from this tornado as it passed. God is indeed good!!!"

Amen brother! I appreciate your Christ like spirit about this. It is not just truth that we want to convey, but are we expressing the heart of God in our posts? Mercy triumphs over judgement!!

Mike

Thanks for the update and admonishment, brother twayneb.

My wife have been both heartbroken and greatly encouraged by some of the stories coming out of Joplin. Our thoughts and prayers will continue as the town endures through this tragedy.

Aunt: Will Norton Missing After Graduation Dies

POSTED: 8:36 am CDT May 28, 2011
UPDATED: 10:28 am CDT May 28, 2011

JOPLIN, Mo. -- A teenager believed to be ejected or sucked from his father's car on the way home from graduation in the massive Joplin tornado last week is dead.

Will Norton's aunt, Tracey Presslor, said Saturday that the family received confirmation of his death late Friday night. She declined to say more until a later news conference.

Family members had previously told The Associated Press that Norton and his father were still on the road when the storm hit. Mark Norton urged his son to pull over, but the teen's Hummer H3 flipped several times, throwing the young man from the vehicle, likely through the sunroof.

The elder Norton was hospitalized.

Several social-networking efforts specifically focused on finding information about Norton.

The death toll from the savage storm stands at 132 people.

Source: http://www.kctv5.com/news/28057781/detail.html