Storms Expose the Character of Man

Tuesday I went to Tuscaloosa, AL to do some business at Northport. While I waited, I drove around the city to check out the damage inflicted upon it on April 27 by a EF5 tornado.

In my lifetime I have seen lots of tornado damage - we live in tornado alley - but I was not prepared emotionally what I saw. The damage was so vast, so huge. There were blocks of buildings shattered and many blocks of houses severely damaged. Dump trucks were running constantly carrying debris to a landfill.

A few blocks away "Samaritan's Purse" had set their disaster units/rigs.

A local was informing me of the scam artists active in the area, scamming victims: insurance settled with homeowners, scammers asked these people how much insurance paid them and informed them they can build them a house for that much money and after getting their money, they disappeared. Truck loads of goods arrived in the city to be distributed to its victims. Others who were not effected by the storm carted away lots of goods. Looting was so bad the National Guard was called in to police the area.

After seeing all this destruction and hearing these stories, I felt sick - it killed all motivation to go shopping there.

And this city is in the heart of the Bible belt of the USA.
I cannot help but compare this report with what was said of Japan when the tsunami hit: looting was no problem. Their mindset is that if it ain't yours you leave it.

What I saw and heard illustrated perfectly the truth of Ecclesiastes 3:18 NASB: I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.”

A local was informing me of the injuries inflicted upon the tornado victims. She said the hospital is full with these people.

I never have heard of this injury: the wind pulled the muscle away from the bone! She said it is a very painful injury, requiring lots of therapy. And I believe it.

Wonder how long it will be until one hears stories of God's saving grace brought about by this storm. It may be only a few, but in God's sight this affliction would have been worth it. Do we understand this point of God's economy? Consider that herd of hogs that ran over the cliff after Jesus healed the man possessed by demons...

Obviously, God's economy differs from man's...

Dear Ginny,

Thank you for this post. The scamming - another 'sign of the times.' A new injury, 'wind pulled muscle,' I don't even want to imagine what went on to get that injury.

I can easily imagine how wonderful it felt to get back home. How blessed it is to live in tornado alley and have no damage. The season is not over, I will continue to pray for you & yours.

white stone

It is always when men are tried that their true character comes out. We have had some cases of looting in Joplin, but it is not wide-spread. We have had many more instances where people have sacrificed to meet the needs of the hurting. So much so that it has baffled many of the people who are really seeing this part of the midwest for the first time. There are those who are taking advantage of the storm relief organizations for their own greed. I have heard a story already of people from a neighboring town who have bragged about getting supplied daily from the relief organizations.

While it is true that each individual's eternal destiny will be determined by whether they are born again or not, there is also a general societal impact that Christianity has on a commmunity. I am blessed to say that Joplin in behind the curve in rejecting this influence, but I know the situation is worsening all the time.

There are those who are coming to Christ as a result of the storm. Although I firmly believe God did NOT bring this storm, yet He is working great good for His kingdom in the lives of men and women as a result of this storm. Continue to pray for Joplin.

Although I firmly believe God did NOT bring this storm, yet He is working great good for His kingdom in the lives of men and women as a result of this storm.

Amos 1:13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.

Matthew Henry Commentary: He creates the wind. The power of the air is derived from him, and directed by him; he brings the wind out of his treasures, and orders from what point of the compass it shall blow; and he that made it rules it; even the winds and the seas obey him.

twayneb,

Joplin is in my prayers. Please explain to me how you can choose to disregard what The Lord, The God of Hosts has to say? Is there anything or anyone that can act outside of His will? No, not one.

Not only do I pray for Joplin but for all the Saints and all who will become Saints through Faith in His Holy Child Jesus.

You must not know how painful it is to me to see His word disregarded. If it is so to me, I shudder to think of how He feels. How can you bring souls to Christ if you are turning your eye from God's own word? This is life and death work you are able to do. For my part I can only sit here in my home and pray, you have the great opportunity to work on the front line. I will pray for you.

white stone

White-Stone:

I know there are many who think that any event that happens on this earth originates in the will of God. I think that to say so is to stretch scripture beyond what it says.

Amos makes a statement that God created the wind as well as the rest of the earth. The statement is not meant by the prophet to say that every wind is controlled by God, but rather to state the majesty and supremacy of the God with whom Israel, who should have known better, was trifling.

God does at times control weather as we can see many instances in the old testament as well as Jesus rebuking the wind and bringing calm in the New Testament. But the fact that a writer would point out specifically that the wind was controlled by God in one instance is evidence that the particular instance is a departure from the norm. God established weather patterns on this earth. The judgment of the flood was cataclysmic on a scale unfathomable to our minds. Weather has never been the same. It is unpredictable and violent storms occur because of the result of sin and the judgment of the flood on the earth.

There is coming a day when the judgments we read about in the Revelation will come upon this earth and some of those judgments include weather. Those judgments will be from God and it will be His righteousness and justice to do so.

I would like you to consider Act 17:30-31

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

There is a day appointed for these judgments to come to the earth. That day is the day of the Lord mentioned in many many places on scripture. I do not believe Joplin to be God's judgment. In fact, I know of many believers in town who were listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit and were warned and prompted VERY strongly to leave certain parts of town 30 minutes or so before the storm hit. We had little warning in the natural, but much in the Spirit. Those who listened were spared. God in his divine foreknowledge warned many of His people. This is why it is so important to learn to hear the voice of the Lord.

I know there is a doctrine of sovereignty, but I believe it is often overstated at the expense of other clear teachings of scripture. God does not control every detail of a man's life. We only have to point to a few verses to show this clearly. For example:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here Gods explicitly stated will is for ALL to come to repentance. His expressed will is not being done because He had given man free will.

Mar 6:5-6 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. (6) And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Here we see that Jesus' ability to work miracles was directly influenced by the people's faith to receive. We see that He cannot heal when we do not put faith in Him for that healing.

So to say that there is nothing or no-one that can act outside His will is a statement that cannot be supported scripturally for we have two incidents where that is precisely what happened.

This in no way diminishes that sovereignty of God. Sovereignty does not mean, "controls all things at all times", but rather, "I controlled by no one. Is supreme above all others." The statements are very different. I am often puzzled at how we arrived at the first definition when it is the second that is more accurate.

You see, if I determine in my heart to drive my car down the road at 120 mph and crash and die, it was not God who ordained that event. It was my own choice, and I paid the natural consequence of that choice. Man chose sin. God judged sin. Therefor when we experience a tornado it is, in a round about way, a natural consequence of our choice. It is a phenomena of a fallen world that we must live with until Jesus comes back, the world is judged, and all things are restored. No storms then praise God.

Just my thoughts. You may take them or leave them, but please don't accuse me of disregarding God's word. Disregarding the word of God is something I hope I am never guilty of.

Blessings!

Whether or not God would have been just to do so is not the issue. He will at the appointed day judge the earth and He will be righteous and just in doing so. I agree totally that apart from being made righteous by the blood of Jesus, every one of us is totally deserving of wrath. I praise God that I have been justified, made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I praise God that I have been saved from wrath. But apart from that we all deserve judgment. But that judgment is not yet. I believe it is reserved (acts 17) for the day of the Lord, therefore I do not believe God sent judgment on Joplin. Whether or not it is right, righteous, or just of God to judge is not in question at all. I am sure we can all agree on the answer to that question.

Great posts Travis!

Bless you brother!

Hi White_Stone,

Joplin is in my prayers. Please explain to me how you can choose to disregard what The Lord, The God of Hosts has to say? Is there anything or anyone that can act outside of His will? No, not one.

Not only do I pray for Joplin but for all the Saints and all who will become Saints through Faith in His Holy Child Jesus.

You must not know how painful it is to me to see His word disregarded. If it is so to me, I shudder to think of how He feels. How can you bring souls to Christ if you are turning your eye from God's own word? This is life and death work you are able to do. For my part I can only sit here in my home and pray, you have the great opportunity to work on the front line. I will pray for you.

I believe that we need to be very careful about assigning the blame of this tornado -- including all of the deaths -- upon the our Lord. In addition, we should be careful about insinuating that people "choose to disregard what the Lord, the God of Hosts has to say" simply because they may not agree with a particular view on the cause/effect relationship with this particular tornado (one of about 1200 per year in the US). This is a particularly active year. In fact, it is the most active since 1950. Of course, the population of this country is much greater than it was then too.

As I said in the dedicated Joplin tornado thread, this type of blame and assumptions about cause could be what Job's friends were guilty of throughout the book of Job (and which God called "words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-3). I read the entire book of Job recently, and many of their words sound quite a bit like the insinuations that I have read online from people who attribute this particular tornado (and all of its death and destruction) as an active or supernatural choice by God.

If the "anything and anyone acts according to His will" philosophy is correct, then mankind is completely devoid of free will and our sinful nature is a direct result of God Himself. Accordingly, every motive and ever act of nature or physics (such as dropping a glass on the floor) is a result of God's active oversight INSTEAD of order to this world that God designed at creation.

We have a high speed commuter train just a couple of blocks from our house. Throughout last year, several local teenagers chose to throw themselves in front of the CalTrain in acts of suicide. Why did they do this? Because the laws of physics prove that it was an effective way to kill yourself. If you stood in front of a heavy passenger bullet train (that reaches 79 mph), it WILL kill you. Someone could accuse these deaths as "the will of God," but it was the determination of these children to kill themselves and the laws of physics that resulted in their deaths. If someone doesn't die from being hit by a 500 ton train going 79 mph, it is because God INTERVENED on their behalf.

Do you see the difference? Weather is the result of PATTERNS. Yes, these are patterns that God designed -- but they are patterns nonetheless. God actively OVERSEES those patterns -- and many times intervenes on our behalf due to our prayers. However, the dew that appeared/did not appear on Gideon's wool fleece was miraculous BECAUSE of divine intervention. After all, dew appears every morning as part of the order of nature that God created.

Do the laws of physics (of which weather is a suborder) exist? Why don't you test it by unplugging your computer, disconnect the internet, remove the battery and see if you can still read SermonIndex? This website exists based upon the will of God -- but utilizes many different tangible laws of physics that God created (and men later figured out). The computer you use exists due to many principles of chemistry and physics (including laws dictating electricity, temperature and structure). The internet itself exists due to many other laws dictated by the order that God designed. Now, God could easily allow us to utilize SermonIndex without being plugged in or the internet. However, most of us either pay for service or use the service provided elsewhere.

A few days ago, the local weather report called for a high temperature of about 65 degrees Fahrenheit in our town today with a slight chance of rain. It is currently 58 degrees at our home (7:45 PM), but the temperature reached a high of 63 degrees at our home and it sprinkled just a bit.

Now, how did the weatherman know what the temperature was going to be? He certainly isn't a prophet. This forecast was simply an estimation made because the weatherman knows the principles of physics related to weather patterns (meteorology) -- and makes his assumptions based upon them. That same weather service predicts that we have an 80% chance of rain on Saturday and a high of 65 degrees. Now, it may rain...or the weatherman can be wrong. But, the weather can be forecast with amazing accuracy because of understanding certain principles of the order that God set for nature. Jesus mentioned this when he said that men can predict the weather because of the sky (Matthew 16:1-4).

As for the verse from Amos and the commentary from Matthew Henry: Yes, God ultimately has dominion over all things. However, Job is an interesting example in that God had SHIELDED Job and his family/belongings from danger (Job 1:10). Why would God need to "hedge" Job from danger if God was the one creating it in the first place? Moreover, the case of Job was the result of God ALLOWING Satan to act against Job (Job 1:12) rather than God following a suggestion of Satan and causing the hardship of Job as an act of judgment (as Job's ignorant friends suggested).

We were placed in a world that has a very specific order. If I place my hand on the stove, it will burn (unless God intervenes). If I fall asleep out of a second floor window, the order of gravity will cause me to hit the ground. If I exercise and eat right, I won't get fat. Now, we can imply that God controls us as pawns or puppets -- but that wouldn't explain a "sinful nature." That nature -- that is CONTRARY to the Spirit of God -- is what causes sinful men to do bad things.

Likewise, we no longer live in Eden. We live in a fallen world. There is an order to this world. It rains on the just and the unjust. During the summer, when the Earth is tilted on its axis toward the Sun (as it rotates and revolves), the days are a bit longer and warmer (including the air masses). During the winter, when the Earth is tilted on its axis away from the Sun, the days are slightly shorter and cooler (including the air masses). During the Spring, cold air masses often collide with encroaching warm air masses. This is when most tornadoes take place.

Now, I am not saying that God cannot create or prevent a tornado as an act of judgment. However, that would be SUPERNATURAL (outside of nature...super = outside; natural = nature). After all, the period of Great Tribulation that is coming will be a time in which the wrath that God has been storing up is poured out supernaturally upon mankind.

However, I think that it is quite a bit of an assumption to proclaim that God created this tornado apart from the natural order to this world that He designed. This is why I would urge caution in regard to proclaiming (as some have done) that this tornado -- and the death and destruction that resulted -- was a specific measure of judgment (in a sense of divine indignation or wrath) upon the town of Joplin. If we are wrong in our proclamation -- even slightly -- then we have risked inadvertently bearing false witness against the character, person or actions of God. This is the very thing that Job's friends were guilty of having done.

I think that it is best to pray for the people of Joplin without trying to portray the reasons, causes or motivation for the events. Could God have caused it? He can do anything -- except violate His own holiness, mercy, judgment, plan and character. Could God have stopped it? Of course, unless it was of a similar violation. God is certainly able to judge, dispense wrath and dispense mercy. After all, He is a God of justice, holiness and mercy simultaneously. Yet, as Job ultimately realized, some things are just "too wonderful" for us to understand or make proclamations in regard to.

Wow seems like "some" have gotten way off topic here. Ginnyrose posted about the behavior of the people after the tornado in her area. If you guys want to keep fighting over Joplin and if God purposely destroyed that little town or not then maybe be considerate to ginnyrose and go back to the other thread...

Ginnyrose: I have seen this kind of behavior before too. Its so sad that even when we are down and hurting all some can do is kick and attack. I know that there were tornado just the other day in MA and within a few hours the National guard had to be called not only to help with possible victims who needed help but to deal with looting. We need to pray.

rdg

What "you think" and "you believe" is of little consequence to US, so please do not include a WE in your beliefs. If YOU believe that YOU need to be very careful, then YOU be very careful. As for ME and the rest of US opposed to what "you believe" and what "you think", WE will hold fast to what God has written for US.

The caution that I urged was for the WE. The opinion that I suggested was my own. I hope to be very quick to make a distinction between what is MY opinion -- so that I am not guilty of making a blanket public proclamation and attributing it to the heart of God.

That is my biggest concern in all of this. There are many visitors reading these posts. When a group of very earnest believers begin to present their opinions of Scripture as if they are truth -- and convey the notion that anyone who disagrees, tests, or urges caution and verification BEFORE it is so publicly proclaimed -- well, it could have lasting repercussions.

There were believers killed in this tornado. I read stories about several devout believers who were killed in the storm. I was brought to tears when I saw a news story online about a family that lost both of their sons after their 3-year old was found on the shore of a nearby lake. While the ultimate end for such people is an eternity with Christ -- we just don't have any Scriptural examples (particularly in the New Covenant) where God actively KILLS His own people. People can try and connect dots of Scripture and speculate that He would do this -- but it is merely speculation.

As for the "rest of us:" There are many believers who disagree with the notion that God caused this tornado, Old Joe. I suppose that it is easy to dismiss those individuals, question their faith, or imply that they are encouraging "sin" with such caution. However, we also believe that we are holding fast to the Word of God.

As was previously said, God can certainly do ANYTHING. However, we have anecdotes from the Word of God regarding things pertaining to this tornado. Some people incorrectly believe that God killed Job's family...or destroyed his belongings...or brought scabs upon his body. Yet Scripture is clear that God had PROTECTED Job, and only removed that "hedge" after Satan's conversation (in Job 1:12 and 2:6). Job's friends thought that it was God's doing and speculated that God performed these things as an act of judgment for one reason or another.

Job listened to them...and God rebuked him for it. God told Job that his friends "darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" (Job 38:2). Job repented, admitting that he spoke of things that he just didn't fully understand.

It is not at all off topic. Eccl 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."

Those who teach the Lord will not do such a thing (Zeph 1:12-13) encourage others to sin with thoughts of impunity.

I urge you to reconsider your angry and accusatory words, Old Joe. I couldn't care less about the accusations about those of us who disagree with your opinions. However, I do urge you to read the Book of Job (specifically, chapters 3-37) and consider how similar your claims sound to what Job's friends uttered.

Some people choose to accuse God. For instance, the disgustingly repulsive Westboro Baptist Church does this on a regular basis. They parade to funerals and proclaim that God killed the deceased as He brought judgment upon a soldier or politician (or other figure). They loudly and proudly proclaim that "God hates" the person rather than the sin. Their misguided zeal is obvious to most believers. However, their accusations (about God and man) are awfully similar to the counsel of Job's friends.

Some people like that feel no hesitation nor prudence when they point the finger at Him and loudly and publicly proclaim that HE was the one who supernaturally created a tornado to KILL, STEAL and DESTROY the people of that city. However, each of those individuals will give an account to God for such an accusation, just as I will give an account to God for urging caution.

Hi rainydaygirl and ginnyrose,

Wow seems like "some" have gotten way off topic here. Ginnyrose posted about the behavior of the people after the tornado in her area. If you guys want to keep fighting over Joplin and if God purposely destroyed that little town or not then maybe be considerate to ginnyrose and go back to the other thread...

I apologize if it seemed like this thread was hijacked. I just saw some more public claims about this tornado (directed at brother twayneb's comments) and was inclined to urge some caution accordingly.

I appreciated sister ginnyrose's comments. Like twayneb said, things like this bring out the character of men. Still, for all of the tragedy, I am encouraged when I read of stories where people have turned to God following tragedies...or because the people of God have reached out to those who are hurting.

Old_Joe,

This statement above declares a fundamental lack of understanding of the book of Job, and is about as twisted an interpretation of scripture as I have seen yet. I suggest you read the rest of the chapter esp v22-29, 34-35.

Before you go accusing me of "a fundamental lack of understanding of the Book of Job," consider the first thing that the Lord said to Job during His confrontation:

"1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 WHO IS THIS THAT DARKENETH COUNSEL BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?"

Job 38:1-2

It seems that God is confronting Job for listening to his friends. This is reflected a few chapters later:

"7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: FOR YE HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF ME THE THING THAT IS RIGHT, AS MY SERVANT JOB HATH.

8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

Job 41:7-8

Job was not rebuked for listening to his friends, he was rebuked for defending his own righteousness, and believing he should be exempt from trouble from God. This is what Job 42:1-6 reveals.

It seems that you are under the belief that God was the one who brought harm upon Job, his family and his belongings. That is just NOT the case. Consider Job 1:12 and Job 2:

Job 1:12 - "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

Job 2:6 - "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

Satan came to God and argued that the reason that Job serves God is because of the hedge of protection that Job had from the Lord (Job 1:9-11 and Job 2:4-5). So, the Lord removed that hedge of protection and allowed Satan to afflict Job.

Again, this affliction did NOT come from the Lord -- except in the sense that God allowed Satan to act against the man, his family and his belongings. This isn't what people are accusing God of. They are pointing the finger at the very behavior and character of God -- like Job's friends -- and attempting to ascertain the reasons that Job (or Joplin) was afflicted BY GOD. I urge you to review the words that Job's friends spoke...and notice how they are similar to the accusations about the tornado in Joplin.

This is why I urge caution.

Joe,

Yes, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Zephaniah, John, Paul and a bunch of others.

Would you care to provide examples of where God poured out His wrath upon HIS OWN PEOPLE? I would especially like to see examples under this New Covenant that God made with us -- especially since the Word says that God has been "storing up" His wrath (Romans 2:5).

Nahum 1:2 - "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath FOR HIS ENEMIES."

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Speaking of "Saints dying" - I've yet to reconcile how David Wilkerson died, yet I have to know that GOD also "allowed it" because one of my closest sister-friends had a car headed right for her and had the miracle of miracles happen as she saw the car go right through hers. Yes, that was a miracle that may be hard for some to believe, yet it did happen. GOD spared her and her son.
GOD is Good and nothing can take away from that - no matter how we or unsaved people die. Taking Saints home or drawing people unto Himself or closer to Himself is All that He's concerned with.

There is a very big difference between "God allowing" a tragedy or set of events to occur (particularly by NOT intervening) and pointing the finger at the character of God and saying that He CAUSED those things by divine intervention. Yet, in the previous Joplin thread, someone actually accused God of killing David Wilkerson (and even raised the possibility that God killed him because he was a "lawbreaker"). That is quite an accusation to make -- but on nearly the same level as saying that God actively created a tornado apart from the ordered patterns of this world with the specific intent to destroy and town and kill certain residents.

Brother, GOD allows these things and that is backed by the Word of GOD. Joe and I have posted quite a bit of Scripture - how could anyone say that GOD is not in control, when to "allow or not allow" is still GOD in control.

No one is arguing whether or not God is "in control" in a larger sense. He is certainly not "in control" in a sense of causing sin...or authoring/motivating a sinful nature. However, God is "in control" in a sense that He set order to this world. He is "in control" of a volcano on one of the moons of Jupiter (that can be observed via a mountain-based telescope) as much as He is in control of whether or not electricity will power the monitor that you are looking at. However, it would be a bit disconcerting to blame whether or not your computer monitor works on an act or judgment of God.

You see, the insinuation that "God is in control" can be used to say that God actively killed a young missionary like Jim Elliot, an older preacher like David Wilkerson or an old woman who dies at the age of 115 in her bed. If all things were in "God's control" (in a sense that He actively causes all things), then why would Jesus have ever healed the sick while He walked this Earth? The Word says that He went about healing the sick and all who were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL.

It is one thing to say that sickness COMES FROM GOD and another thing to say that sickness can be USED BY GOD. Likewise, it is one thing to imply that there are no such things as an "order of nature" or "weather patterns" and that God intervenes in such things by simply halting what He was already plotting.

The U.S. is not exempt or more special than any other country - that's for sure. In fact - we're more guilty than any other nation on earth. We were the world's super-power and claimed to be a Christian Nation.
If we begin to see incredible earthquakes in the United States, what then? What will our reaction be? Any different than with tornados?

I haven't seen anyone write comments for which this comment would pertain. It certainly wasn't anything that I have implied. As a person who has traveled abroad for missionary work, I wouldn't suggest that America is somehow immune to natural disasters. Moreover, it seems that the opposite is often implied here on SermonIndex by a small group of people -- that God is somehow actively pouring out "special judgment" upon this nation for sin (while many regions of the world -- like Islamic nations continue unscathed).

Ok you guys win argue about Joplin all
You want. I'm done....how sad this all is

Hi Old_Joe,

Chris

You urge caution simply because you do not know. It is faith that allows us to know.

I will be the first to admit the limits of my own understanding -- or venturing into causes or accusations about subjects that are "too wonderful" for my own limited mind.

However, I am urging caution because there are others who seem to consistently speak of things as if they know -- without raising any possibility of being wrong in the least. Now, if something is exceedingly clear from Scripture, we can stake that claim as being beyond all doubt.

This is NOT one of those situations.

Some individuals are literally pointing the finger at God for the deaths and destruction due to one tornado (out of an average of 1,200 per year in this country) and insinuating an underlying motivation of judgment and wrath. They aren't saying that it was the judgment of God to not intervene -- but that it was God who actively created the tornado with the purpose of killing and destroying (even upon His own people).

I would appreciate if we can avoid insinuations about one another in these sort of discussions. It bothered me that you previously claimed that I was "twisting Scriptures" -- as if I am motivated by something other than the Truth found only in Christ Jesus. We can disagree or have differences of opinions -- but we don't have to resort to personal implications that aren't helpful or respectful in such discussions.

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Chris, all that both of my posts are saying and doesn't need anything more added to it is, that "GOD ALLOWS" these things and I posted enough Scripture and so did Joe.
Scripture ends all "arguments".

Please understand that all of the words within these posts aren't directed expressly to you. I do think that I know where you are trying to convey, but it differs somewhat from what others are saying.

Most of us have acknowledged from the get-go that "God allows" things -- including tragedies -- and uses such things to draw men closer to Himself. But this isn't being painted as a "tragedy" by some. Some are literally pointing the finger at God and saying that God specifically CREATED this tornado (apart from the natural order to this world and its weather) in order to KILL certain people and DESTROY 3/4 of the town as an act of "judgment" upon Joplin and/or the U.S.

In the other Joplin thread, someone literally implied (in so many words) that God killed David Wilkerson because of "lawlessness." That is a hefty accusation to make about the character, nature, motives and actions of the Living God.

The caution that I urge is because of the seriousness of such allegations, insinuations and implications of what some might think that they "know" from Scripture. Historically, many people, groups, denominations and sects derive many different "doctrines" from Scripture that are based upon what they "know" but aren't widely agreed upon by the Body of Christ. With such disagreements, should we assume that some believer is purposely "twisting" Scripture to meet some preconceived notion?

Yet, this is an implication that troubles me. Some people are so "certain" of the things that they "know" from Scripture that they are confident enough to say such things. Yes, the Scriptures are clear -- but our lens is sometimes skewed by the "glass darkly" on this side of Eternity. As such, we sometimes fail to make a distinction between a personal conclusion about Scripture and what Scripture is actually saying. Or, like Job, we listen to the "wisdom" of other friends who influence our thoughts on certain matters and then we make utterances and finite conclusions about things "too wonderful" for us.

Many people are reading these forums that we may never know and it would be dreadful to find that -- not only did we utter something that wasn't entirely true about the character of God -- but that others actually listened, believed it and our incorrect words were repeated as part of a cycle.

I do apologize if I offend you or anyone else by urging caution in this matter. The Lord bless you as well.

rdg,

It is ok...don't get in too big of a wad over the turn of this discussion.

Seems to me the biggest concern should be that if and/or when something like this were to happen to me,to my community that our response should be of humble submission to God, one that says, "God what do you want me to learn through this calamity?" And He will tell you. He may convict you of a hidden sin you did not want to face up to, or, he just may want to use you as an example to someone else that you will not curse God because He allowed this to happen. We do not always know why He allows these calamities but we need to be humble and willing to learn from it.

Take care rdg....males love to decipher the fine points of theology but whatever they decide will not change who God is, not that these discussions are not important. It is just that we need to be primarily concerned that our responses to these things are holy.

God bless..

ginnyrose

Old_Joe,

possibly the biggest judgment may be on those who refuse to see God working in these situtations, with God allowing them to fill up their cup of iniquity to the full in denying His very person. But they will keep praying for their stuff....

Just what are you insinuating here, Old Joe?

Are you implying that those of us who don't believe that God supernaturally creates ALL 1200 tornadoes per year and kills scores of people each year (for as long as records have been kept) are guilty of...

A.) "Refusing" to see God work;
B.) "Denying His very person;
C.) "Filling" up a "cup of iniquity;"
D.) Selfishly "pray for stuff"
-and-
E.) Awaiting the "biggest" judgment -- bigger than the killing and destruction from 1,200 tornadoes that you argue that God created?

First of all, please stop making such insinuations about people who you simply disagree with. It is wrong for you to try and vilify those of us who disagree with your opinion about this cause or origin of this tornado or those of us who are simply urging caution about the accusation that you are making toward the character of God.

Secondly, we all know that God's wrath will come on mankind as recorded in the Book of Revelation. Right or wrong, it is merely an assumption on your part that this is the "front end" of the Great Tribulation or that it equates to God spending time in the metaphoric "bullpen." After all, God is omnipotent and doesn't need to "warm up." Rather, the "birth pains" as described in Matthew 24 will come as the Earth itself agonizes for the coming judgment.

There have been many times where people attributed dates or events to the beginning of judgment day. In 1833, a young Abraham Lincoln was awakened during a particularly eventful Leonid meteor shower by a preacher who proclaimed that Judgment Day was at hand. However, if we are incorrect at attributing such specific events to a time table or set of judgment of God, then we are just as guilty of false prophecy as Harold Camping (no matter how sincere we are...or how much we think that we "know" that the Scriptures say on the matter).

Like it or not, God is in charge (very specifically in the details of the elements) or He is not God.

No one has argued that God is not in charge of the elements. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that God OVERSEES all things -- including the order of this world that He created. That order of design is apparent in the world around us -- including the fact that men who have studied that order were able to create the very computer that you are using and harness the electricity needed to power it.

The question, however, is whether or not God purposely created a tornado to destroy 75% of a town and kill hundreds of people. At best, such an accusation is speculation. I simply caution those who would make such an accusation against God to consider whether or not they are guilty of the very thing that Job's friends did when they accused God of having commenced the events around Job's hardships or attempt to guess the causes and motivations to do so.

What makes you think that dying in a tornado or losing your stuff is God's wrath? These things are nothing compared to His wrath. When people start eating their own children in this land because of the famine that God will be sending, that will be getting closer to His wrath, because it is things like that which gnaw on the soul.

I never said as much. However, you somehow suppose yourself perceptive enough to KNOW that God created this tornado to destroy a town and kill hundreds of people -- babies, children and adults, believers and unbelievers alike.

By the way, I have no doubt that the wrath of God is coming upon this world. It will be a time unlike any other -- and that wrath will make the Joplin tornado seem like a Sunday School picnic. However, I no more trust your estimation about when, where and how that wrath will come than I would trust Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, the many conspiracy-laden prophecy websites or any other self-supposed expert of eschatology. I already know that it will bad enough...and the importance of placing our faith in Christ Jesus our Lord no matter what comes.

Still, it is merely an assumption -- right or wrong -- to attribute this single tornado as an act of judgment by God upon this town. In my opinion (just to distinguish), this is no different than those ignorant members from Westboro Baptist Church who constantly parade down the street proclaiming that every death or tragedy is the result of the judgment of God upon that person (or America).

Losing stuff is merely a chastisement (Heb 12) losing life for a Christian just means their usefulness in His kingdom has expired; losing the life of a loved one is just a reminder that this world is temporary.

According to Job 1:12 and Job 2:6, it can also be the result of Satan. In other events (like the collapse of the Tower of Siloam in Luke 13:1-9), it just happens. In fact, the principle behind the Tower of Siloam is clear when Jesus said that God is patient in dispensing judgment on unfruitful vines.

Now, it is undeniable that the death of believers has lost its sting. This is because we have a blessed hope in our Lord and Savior. We don't even need the death of a loved one to realize how temporary this life is. If we lived to be 120-years old, it is just a drop in the bucket when compared with Eternity. I don't need my wife to die to make me realize this...because I already know it so well. We aren't even promised to live until tomorrow. However, it is another thing to attribute each and every death -- or the specific deaths of a baby during a tornado -- to the judgment of God.

It is one thing to say that God knew it would happen. It is another thing to say that God allowed it to happen. It is an entirely different thing to say that God designed it to happen and carried out the killing Himself. Indeed, I urge caution that we don't fall under the same sins as Job's friends and accuse God of calamity or guess his motives for it.

Deism has you confounded, look higher than what you can understand....

Joe, I have already asked you to refrain from making such ridiculous and erroneous statements like this. They are untrue and very uncalled for. I ask you again to stop making statements like this.

It is ok...don't get in too big of a wad over the turn of this discussion.

__

I should not have posted to this thread, my bad. I apologies for any misunderstand on my part.

I think I am going to go spend some time in prayer...

rdg

Are you ABSOLUTELY certain about this?

Since I have always believed in "absolutes" (and have always said as much), why wouldn't I be certain about the attitude that you are conveying toward those who disagree with your opinions?

BTW, there is a real difference between incorrectly stating a sectarian opinion as an "absolute" and the Truth that is irrefutable from Scripture.

There is a world of difference between proclaiming God as a killer (and even guessing His motives) in regard to the recent tornado in Joplin, Missouri and proclaiming something that is exceedingly clear from the Word of God as an indisputable truth. The fact that there are God-fearing believers who disagree with you (or the finality of your proclamations) is a demonstration that what you are presenting is an opinion (rather than fact) and that it is possible that said opinion may be incorrect.

Old Joe,

And that is the beauty of just trusting the word of God without trying to make excuses for it. God says he does this kind of stuff all the time, and He also says He changes not, so that in itself ought cause you to be on your toes, and be thankful that it didn't come for you.

The problem with this statement and mindset is that it doesn't necessarily reflect that you are "trusting the Word of God" but rather your own understanding of the Word of God.

It is like the two churches across town who constantly bicker of doctrinal peculiarities -- but both are "certain" that they "know" the "truth" as they read God's Word. In reality, the people who attend those churches and argue vigorously with one another have simply reached different conclusions about the meaning of certain passages in God's Word. Yet they will both proclaim their "knowledge" and that the other church is wrong. Sometimes, a third (and fourth, fifth, sixth, etc...) church will enter the discussion and declare the first two "fundamentally flawed" (or worse).

The Scriptural references that you cited do not lead me to assume that there is no designed order to this world (such as weather or physics), or that God supernaturally created this tornado, or that God created said tornado for the purpose of dispensing judgment. Yet, many of us read those same passages and, when weighed with other passages, just do not arrive to the conclusion that has been presented. This is not only true of the Joplin tornado, or of the 1,200 tornadoes that average each year, but of EVERYTHING.

The way that some write, you would expect that they do not believe in accidents. After all, it was implied that David Wilkerson was killed by God for "law breaking." Someone was so "certain" of their "knowledge" of both God and Scripture that they played judge and jury in regard to Brother Wilkerson's recent death -- not only guessing that the cause of death was God's doing...but even making an assumption about the reason that God killed him ("lawbreaking"). If that doesn't sound like the "wisdom" from one of Job's friends, I don't know what would!

When I was a freshman in college, a fellow student died in a car crash. He had fallen asleep at the wheel when returning to school late one Sunday evening. When someone asked to pray for his family at one of our Bible studies, one of the guys from the church objected to the term "traffic accident," because he argued that God caused the crash. "God controls EVERYTHING," he said.

This, of course, didn't win him too many friends. In fact, a visitor to the Bible study commented afterward about how horrible that this "no accident" guy made God out to be. It was almost as if the guy was saying that God caused the 18-year old to stay up late, fall asleep at the wheel and wreck his car. It is as if the world is all one gigantic script written by God in which we live in a world where there is no free will...no order...no design...no laws of nature. Rather, God is just a universal script writer who actively controls every aspect of every man, woman, child, animal, wind, rain, plant, and every other object in the entire universe AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT.

Weather patterns? Nonsense -- because God must obviously control the weather without any sort of order whatsoever. He just constantly decides to do what He wants when He wants -- and those weekday weather forecasts are just silly guesses that are strangely accurate.

Electricity? Nonsense -- because there are no forces of nature or physics. Your computer, CD player, lights, etc... -- it works because God controls it. So, it will work without being plugged in because God makes it so. In fact, you don't even need a computer to search the internet, because those "laws" do not exist -- and you can access the internet from any rock.

Law of Gravity? Nonsense -- because there is no order to such a thing and it is just God's active "control" at all times that makes people and objects fall to the Earth (or comets to crash into Jupiter).

Rotation of the Earth? Nonsense! It just looks like it is spinning on its access each 24 hours and revolving around the Sun every 365.25 days.

Health? Who cares? Since there is no order to biology, then I have nothing to worry about when I eat. I should be able to eat raw chicken, raw beef and anything that I want! I don't need to eat healthy foods or exercise, because laws of nutrition and health aren't real. Come to think of it, I don't need to plant my garden or vegetables "in season" because God is the one who controls them and makes them grow, right? I don't need fertilizer...or even dirt!

Bouyancy? Nonsense? Even if a person can't swim, they should be able to walk on water. After all, Jesus and Peter did (even though they took boats most of the time). So, walking on water is just as miraculous as a boat floating -- because God controls it all anyway and there are no laws of physics or chemistry anyway, right? And, if a person sinks underwater, the natural order for human biology that states that a person needs oxygen to the brain and heart aren't real...because God controls those things. So, a person should be able to stay under water for a few hours without breathing, right? After all, God controls the oxygen anyway...and the fact that someone is under water shouldn't affect that control at all.

I guess that I could go on and on. Do you see how silly it sounds when someone implies that there is no set order to this world that God designed? Rather, this entire world operates according to order -- the order that God designed.

It is the understanding of that specific order (and laws) that God designed that allowed men to land on the Moon, build spacecraft that landed on Mars, explore the solar system, build telescopes, understand the movement of celestial bodies, understand how to raise crops efficiently (in their ordered SEASONS), and even how certain foods are healthier than others. It is the understanding of that order that caused men to figure out how to design and build automobiles, roads, ships, telephones, cellular phones, compact disks, the MP3 files containing voices of men who have long since died, medicine for the sick, etc...

It is also the understanding of this designed order that caused weathermen to forecast bad weather days before the tornado, and issue tornado warnings BEFORE any tornado had actually formed in Joplin -- because the satellite imagery and understanding that physical atmospheric conditions were ripe for such phenomenon.

Is it possible that God created this world and set it in order while He oversees it simultaneously? Now, before you accuse me of fulfilling some Wikipedia definition of "deism" (again), please understand that I certainly believe that God has infinite power and control over this world -- as long as it doesn't violate His character, attributes, promises and covenant with us. Yes, He is a God of justice...and His wrath is great.

However, the question in all of this is whether or not God was the culprit behind the Joplin tornado.

Like I said before, Satan was the one who afflicted Job. Did God control the disasters? Well, that would have put God under the control of Satan (Job 1:12). So, if God controls everything, why did God (prior to Job's affliction) bother to place a hedge around Job for protection? To protect Job from...God Himself? Moreover, it was Satan who afflicted Job (but only after Satan had permission). Satan was given a stipulation from God to avoid harming Job himself and, later, to spare Job's life.

Yet, Job's friends assumed that it was God who struck Job (Job 4:7-9). They stipulated that God controls all things, so He must have been behind Job's afflictions (5:1-17). They assumed that Job had earned God's correction and judgment (Job 5:17-19; Job 8:1-4, etc...). They tried to cause Job to blame God for the trials that he faced, and ascertain the reasons why God caused those things (Job 20, 22, 25). Yet, in reality, it was Satan who had afflicted Job all along (Job 1:12, 2:6-7). The Lord confronted Job about "words without knowledge" (Job 38:2) that Job's friends had spoken (Job 42:7).

When I read some of the things certain people say about the Joplin tornado, any other disaster or tragedy, or even from the 1833 Leonid meteor shower -- as a specific "judgment" from God -- I just wonder if they are venturing into the same suppositions as Job's friends. They don't realize that they were saying things that they thought that they "knew" but were without knowledge. They were speaking of things "too wonderful" for them.

That is why I have to wonder why some feel confident enough to make such a proclamation. Some people made similar proclamations about 9/11. Some did it each time a major earthquake hit. Others did it a several years ago with Hurricane Katrina. Some even proclaimed that it was the beginning of the period of Great Tribulation...and the beginning of the Wrath of God! I knew a guy who thought that 9/11 was the first day of the Tribulation and set a 2008 date for the Second Coming! Like Harold Camping, he was so confident in his "knowledge" that he proclaimed it publicly. But, like Camping, he was wrong (and was unwittingly guilty of lying).

This is part of the caution that I urge. Yes, Jesus is coming. Yes, the wrath of God is coming. Yes, it will be a terrible time -- worse than any other time in history. And, yes, God has the ultimate controlling oversight over the entire universe -- as long as it doesn't violate His character, plan or New Covenant. Still, this is all in addition to the point.

It is the very public accusation that states that God caused a tornado with a purpose of killing hundreds of people and destroying 75% of a town that causes me to urge some caution when voicing such things. If the person proclaiming it is wrong, then they are guilty of bearing false witness against the character of God.

BTW, is there an F) for all of the above. ;-)

So, you really think that those of us who disagree with your opinion about the responsibility and cause of this tornado are guilty of A.) "Refusing" to see God work; B.) "Denying His very person; C.) "Filling" up a "cup of iniquity;"
D.) Selfishly "pray for stuff" -and- E.) Awaiting the "biggest" judgment -- bigger than the killing and destruction from 1,200 tornadoes that you argue that God created?

Ouch. Of course, I will take those accusations with a grain of salt each time I enter boldly before His throne of grace.

:-)

rdg wrote:

I should not have posted to this thread, my bad. I apologies for any misunderstand on my part.

Relax. It is OK. Don't allow differences of opinion destroy your appreciation for those you differ with...and this is not a sin issue but a perception one. The biggest thing, IMHO, is that if you ever get caught in a storm that your reactions will honor God. This is what is really important.

I said in the lead post that I went to Tuscaloosa. Well...on the way home I got sleepy so I stopped at a small antique shop to walk around and wake up. While there the owner wanted to talk about this tornado, she having been a victim years ago. Then she asked if I did not believe that one would have to suffer a nervous breakdown after going through this? Never was asked this question before...But I said, "No. You're not going anywhere with a nervous breakdown. You just ask God to help you and he will..." She said nothing. See what I mean?

ginnyrose

No one has said that there are no such things as weather patterns and natural laws

What is being pointed out is that nothing happens apart from the will of God

If it makes you feel better, you can say that he only "allowed" it. Most unbelievers are not comforted by the problem of evil with the response - "oh, he didn't cause it, he simply allowed it"

Is not the Satan of Job under the rule and reign of God?

Is it a surprise to God when people die?

The kind of thinking that is being proffered here is the pathway to open Theism.

Edited: No, I took my post down, even after just a short time more in prayer and speaking with my husband I realize the question I asked does not need answering here.

If I may just say though, I was reading in the NT and the one thing that stood out was the love they had for each other. The love in CHRIST for one another always seemed to be so evident and clear in their lives. That was one of the things that drew so many unsaved to JESUS and the church, they were different, their love for one another, their desire to be a servant stood out. In reading some of this thread, its clear that it has broken down to accusations and attacks, reading the posts over they do not seem to be about sharing, or edifying one another, they don't even seem to point anyone to JESUS, they just seem to be more about one person being right over the other???? My heart just kind of sinks because here we are again caught up in yet another endless debate. At least that is what I come away from this with. I wonder if we( meaning myself also) were all spending this time in prayer before GOD, crying out to HIM for those who are in rebellion to HIM to see their need for JESUS what a difference that would make.

Much love for you all here
God bless and praying for those here and those who have been so devastated by the storms. WE all need JESUS :)

God bless
maryjane

Revelations 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Perfectly clear to me.

Hi BenK...

No one has said that there are no such things as weather patterns and natural laws

Actually, the argument was raised in the previous Joplin tornado thread that there are no such things as weather patterns or laws of nature.

What is being pointed out is that nothing happens apart from the will of God

If it makes you feel better, you can say that he only "allowed" it. Most unbelievers are not comforted by the problem of evil with the response - "oh, he didn't cause it, he simply allowed it"

Is not the Satan of Job under the rule and reign of God?

Is it a surprise to God when people die?

I don't think that this notion was ever in dispute. I think that we all agree that God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). We all agree that God is omnipotent and can do anything -- and can destroy the world in an instant if He so chooses (even though we know from His Word that He won't do this until AFTER the Millennial reign of Christ). We also know that God intervenes at our prayers. Scripture is filled with examples of men who prayed and God moved on their behalf -- often thwarting death, disaster, military conquest or even judgment. None of that is in dispute.

The caution that I urged was in regard to the notion that God superseded the typical order of weather and created a tornado as a judgment upon the town of Joplin, Missouri (or the United States) and killed hundreds of people and destroyed 75% of the town.

It was argued that there is NO SUCH THING as "weather patterns" or "laws of nature." They argued that since God is in control of all things, then He presently created this tornado -- and all 1,200 tornadoes that average each year in the United States -- for a purpose of JUDGMENT. It was stated that God killed these people, some as a possible act of "wrath" and some as a possible act of "mercy." It was even stated that God, because of His active control of everything, killed David Wilkerson -- possibly because he was a "lawbreaker" because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt when his body was recovered.

It is with those things that I urged caution.

That is stretching much further than the notion that God is omnipotent and that nothing operates outside of His will and control. Of course, such an open-ended suggestion would imply that all evil is controlled by God. This suggestion also implies that Satan is CONTROLLED by God -- not simply by limitations -- but by a motivation that is guided by God.

One of the people in the other Joplin thread accused God of afflicting Job -- even expressing that it was one of the things that Job's friends actually "got right." Yet the Scriptures are clear that God had protected Job through a special hedge of protection (Job 1:9-10). If God was actively controlling all things -- including Satan -- then why would God even need to offer a hedge of protection to begin with?

Satan claimed that Job was serving God because of God's blessings and protection. Satan then implied that if God removed that protection and struck Job, that Job would curse God (Job 1:9-11). Now, God immediately made it clear that He would not actively do this. God allowed Satan to strike out against Job by placing everything in Satan's hands, but instructed Satan to refrain from touching Job himself (Job 1:12). So Satan acts against Job -- even using a "wind." Later, Satan returns and argues that Job would curse God if he was personally afflicted (Job 2:4-5). God then allowed Satan to afflict Job -- but not to kill him (Job 2:6). So, Satan struck Job with painful boils upon flesh (Job 2:7-8).

Do you see the difference here? God was not actively afflicting Job. The devil did that. Yes, Satan had the permission of God to act against Job, but it was not God who was creating the death and destruction.

Yet, Job's friends thought it was an act of God. I pointed out some of the passages previously from Job chapters 3-37, but Job's three friends were implying that God was the one who was afflicting Job...and it was an act of judgment...and they were guessing the underlying reasons for what they assumed were acts of judgment.

It is this type of supposition that sounds an awfully lot like those who claim that God supernaturally created a tornado and purposely killed hundreds of people in the town (including believers and children) and that it was an act of judgment (even implying that it was both as acts of wrath and mercy). When I read those comments, and then read Job chapters 3-37, I am struck by the similarity of the accusations.

God rebuked Job for listening to those "wise guys" who thought themselves "knowing" enough to make accusations about both God and Job. God said that they literally "darkeneth counsel with words without knowledge" (Job 38:2) and God said that Job's friends "have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath" (Job 42:7). Job repented and admitted that he spoke of things that he did not truly understand and that were "too wonderful" for him (Job 42:3) -- and this coming from a man who was considered by God to be "perfect and upright" (Job 1:8).

This is why I am urging caution. I wouldn't urge caution about saying that God is the ultimate overseer of the world. I wouldn't urge caution about God knowing the end from the beginning or His ability to intervene at any time.

Rather, I urged caution because men publicly proclaimed that there is no "order" or "nature" to this world that was designed by God...that God created the tornado...that God created the tornado as an act of judgment...that God killed people as an act of wrath and/or mercy...and that God even pours out deadly judgment on people like David Wilkerson because he may not have been wearing a seatbelt.

I hope that you can see the difference in that.

The kind of thinking that is being proffered here is the pathway to open Theism.

Urging caution before people accuse God of actively creating a tornado as an act of judgment in Joplin, Missouri in order to kill hundreds of people and destroy 75% of the town is NOT a pathway to open Theism, deism or another "ism." :-) It is simply a word of caution.

"Though I'm not open-theist, I do believe that if a hurricane is headed my way, that I can plead with Him to not be hit by it and there are times that He will answer - and if I am hit by the hurricane after praying to not be, I Know His reasons are always GOOD."

JIG - I don't disagree with you at all. We aren't to be fatalists. He reigns and rules and also answers prayer according to the counsel of his will.

"I know his reasons are always GOOD" is gold!

Hi Jesus-is-God,

I posted that the 'physics' of weather is that it is in 'flux' and it's only limitedly predictable by man. That is 'the science' of weather. I've said that nature 'is not predictable', but it fell on deaf ears. I was a weather person in the military and I know how limited weather predicting is because of the very 'physics' that was raised.

I hope that I made it clear that I believe that there is a world of difference between God actively causing something or God simply allowing it to happen.

I raised the issue about weather patterns, weather phenomenon and the physical laws of nature (which I conclude that God designed at the creation of this world) because this tornado appears to be a product of it.

Weather on the earth is observed constantly through satellites. A weatherman can warn about a "cold front" or pending thunderstorms over a week in advance. This is what happened in Joplin. Several days prior, the weather service predicted that a storm would be coming...and that there was potential for violent thunderstorms and possible tornadic activity. As a result, prior to the tornado forming, the National Weather Service issued tornado watches for Joplin. A tornado warning was sounded even before the tornado touched down. These weren't simplistic guesses. These watches, warnings and predictions came from learned men who understand weather patterns enough to offer a forecast and advisement.

A few days ago, I mentioned that the weather service predicted that we would have rain on Saturday with a high of around 65. Guess what? It is 10:38 AM on Saturday and it is raining and the temperature is currently 57 degrees. The weather report from a few days ago was not a "guess." It was an approximation based upon the weather service's understanding of weather in terms of the order of nature. The weather service is predicting that this weather pattern will begin to dissipate and that we will have sunny skies and a high of about 70 degree by Tuesday. I will keep you posted if they are correct. :-)

Scientists know to a large extent how tornadoes are formed. I explained this (in a nutshell) in the Joplin tornado thread. During the Spring (typically), northerns cold air masses surge into southerly warm air masses and violent things happen (including tornadoes).

I stated that this tornado was an observed product of that phenomenon. To be blunt, I was surprised that a few people would have been offended or upset at such a statement.

Still, my greater concern was not with the extent that weather, weather patterns, the laws of nature, the laws of physics and chemistry (etc...) play in this Earth. Rather, it was that men suggested that this tornado was formed OUTSIDE of weather -- and as a specific act of judgment upon a town. There were all sorts of accusatory implications and suggestions about WHY God would pour out judgment upon the town. It was with this type of public proclamations that I urged caution.

I do hope that makes a little more sense. I also hope that people do not misunderstand and continue to accuse me of embracing deism or a path to open theism. It was simply a word of caution about proclaiming something that they suppose themselves to "know" that may be "too wonderful" for them in the first place.

The Lord bless you.

Hi Jesus-is-God,

That is why I get moved to a sort of anger, when I hear anyone praising "science" when it's Godless men's science that plays the major role in what is happening now and will happen, that He will finally come to deal with in Rev 11:18.

Just for clarification's sake: I did not, nor did I read comments from anyone else, that "praise" science. Observing the order of nature and natural phenomenon that God designed is very different from "praising" science.

After all, science in accountable to God and not the other way around.

*EDIT - By the way, I was reminded recently of something while reading through the book of II Chronicles 26 about King Uzziah. In II Chronicles 26:9-15, the Bible says that Uzziah built "engines" (machines) -- designed by skilled men -- that hurled "great stones" and machines to shoot arrows.

Interestingly, Uzziah lived sometime between 750-800 B.C. According to historians, the catapult wasn't readily designed until 399 B.C. (by the Greeks) and the crossbow wasn't designed until the 4th Century B.C. (around 341 B.C.). Yet, the Bible records these machines hundreds of years prior to those dates!

Interesting stuff! I have always wondered why more is not made about this.

Chris wrote

That is stretching much further than the notion that God is omnipotent and that nothing operates outside of His will and control. Of course, such an open-ended suggestion would imply that all evil is controlled by God. This suggestion also implies that Satan is CONTROLLED by God -- not simply by limitations -- but by a motivation that is guided by God.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Chris, Maybe you need to read another book in the Bible than Job. Amos for instance.

By the way, the authors of the Bible wrote as moved by the Holy Spirit - not of their own will. What they wrote is God's words not man's. This fact is not open for debate. God said it and I read it.

Jesus-is-God was right about the insurance companies calling it an Act of God. She was also right about everything else she posted.

All I can say about all this is:

Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV) 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Blessings to all!

Hi White_Stone,

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Chris, Maybe you need to read another book in the Bible than Job. Amos for instance.

By the way, the authors of the Bible wrote as moved by the Holy Spirit - not of their own will. What they wrote is God's words not man's. This fact is not open for debate. God said it and I read it.

I used the book of Job because it seemed to be the most timely in response to a disaster of this sort.

Moreover, the Book of Job reflects the reasons why I urge caution for men who accuse God of actively creating a tornado to kill people -- including His own believers -- as an act of judgment. Job's friends were quite accusatory about God and guessing the "reasons" for Job's afflictions. This is what appeared to be going on here.

Furthermore, I questioned whether or not that there is ANY anecdote of God killing believers...particularly under this New Covenant that He made with us.

Like I said, there is a difference between God actively causing death and destruction...and God simply allowing it to happen. One implication is active and the other is passive. The proclamations of some here seems to imply that God actively created this tornado as a means of dispensing judgment upon a town (or nation) by specifically destroying 3/4 of the town and killing hundreds of people. I just don't find Scriptures that indicate that this is ALWAYS the case (especially under this New Covenant).

For a while, I was concerned by the rhetoric that some were using descriptively against me because I disagreed with such a conclusion. In these threads, I have been accused of being a deist, on the path of open theism, filling a cup of iniquity, selfish in my prayers, twisting Scriptures and even piling up judgment upon myself. Such rhetoric is frustrating -- because it comes from people who simply have a disagreement about what we believe is the cause behind a single destructive tornado.

And, for a bit, I felt that I might actually be alone in my thinking. However, I am thankful for those who have written in this thread (and other threads) similar thoughts or who have PMed me with some kind words of encouragement.

I am just saddened when there is a disagreement -- or even words of caution uttered -- that people feel the need to vilify or "unspiritualize" those who disagree with them. Moreover, I don't think that some people realize how "off" their rhetoric can be -- even to the point of implying things that are far from the truth (like people here are "praising science").

For the most part, we all agree that God is the omnipotent Creator of this world. Most of us acknowledge that God created certain patterns, laws and order to this world as well. And we can agree that God ALLOWS certain things -- including calamity -- to happen.

The underlying caution that I urge is when men attribute each calamity like this to the active (rather than permissive) undertaking of God. As rbanks said in another thread, I am concerned that some men may charge God foolishly.

Job was afflicted by Satan...but God permitted/allowed it to happen. That is a very different thing than what Job's friends said. They believed that God was judging Job...and they questioned various possible motives for what they considered to be an act of God. God rebuked such thinking in Job chapters 38-42. I have simply urged caution less sincere believers think themselves "knowing" enough to draw similar conclusions.

When bad things happen people want to know why it happened, hoping that perhaps a reason can be ascertained and further calamities prevented by us altering our behaviors, if indeed, it was cause by something we did.

But the reality is that God is not obligated to reveal, to justify why He allowed these things to happen, whether it be storms, terminal illness or other calamities that happen outside of man's control.

The dynamics of God's working in the affairs of man, of nature are at best mysterious. Some things do not make sense at all. Consider 1Kings 22:19-23 NASB:

19 Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.

20“The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that.

21“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22“The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’

23“Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.”

Since God is under no obligation to gain our approval for his modus operandi, is it not in our best interests to simply trust him, knowing that, indeed, all things work together for good, even when we do not see it at the moment?

It is all about faith and trust, knowing that his ways are mysterious [to us] but always wise and we rely on this fact. And this is the message we have to share with the victims of disasters or afflictions.

Wow...that is very well put, Sister Ginnyrose.

I think that this is part of the gist from Job...when he repented saying, "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know" (Job 42:3 NASB).

I think that there are some things that are beyond our own understanding. We don't need to know some things...or waste time assigning blame. We must simply maintain trust in Him.