Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".

If they didn't overcome what? Maybe habitual sexual sin for starters or some other form of idolatry? I know the Lord is faithful to weed these things out of our life. But what if we just refuse to give them up? Anybody have any thoughts about this verse? Thanks.

We will not be perfect, even walking carefully in the Spirit, until we are out of this flesh.

The flesh is corrupted already, yet so long as we pursue the Face of God, continuously turning back towards Him whenever we fall away from the Spirit, whether through inattention, or deliberate choice, we are forgiven.

Beware, though, for there is a time when too many deliberate choices in the wrong direction will cause the Holy Spirit to give you over to the Adversary.

Adonai knows that not all stupid and childish rebellions we make are cause for being abandoned to sin, yet even He can lose patience with us.

When we make a practice of sinning deliberately against Him, and are no more trying to overcome that particular sin, Adonai will come to a point when He can no longer tolerate the deliberate, calloused action. It is not a matter of how many times one commits the sin, but the harm of the sin against others, and even against oneself, for your body belongs to the Lord.

Be afraid also, lest you sin, and forget to turn back to the Lord. The moment you first realize that you have sinned again, change your mind back toward Adonai, and beg His forgiveness. Soon, the attention you pay to your actions and words as the Holy Spirit makes you aware of transgressing will come to block the thought and impulse.

Romans 7:
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thoughts... 2 Cor. 10:5 tearing down misleading arguments and every high place [fig., arrogance] lifting itself up against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

It appears from the title of this thread that you take this verse as a threat. I conclude that you read such into the text as you comment,"there is the strong possibility they could have their names blotted out of the book of life." And to make matters worse you then add your own twist on the verse with your words,"If they didn't overcome what? Maybe habitual sexual sin for starters or some other form of idolatry?"

Rather than being a threat as you make it out to be,it is a promise to the afflicted and persecuted believers which John writes to,to encourage them to endure in their faith in their time of great temptation.

You and others who use this verse as you do,stretching its implications to support the false doctrine of Christ losing one of His sheep for whom He died, is insideous,as it is an insult to Christ(also to the Father and Sprit as they're One),and harmful to weak believers(those weak in faith or those struggling with temptation and sin).

The promise as expressed in the greek states, "I will not" —Greek, "I will not by any means." The "I will not" is followed by the affirming "I will". He first says to them what He won't do,and He next says what He will do. Praise be to God. All Glory to Him and His Faithfulness to us.

Rev 3:5 '"The one who is conquering, he shall be clothed in white garments, and under no circumstances will I be erasing his name from the scroll of life, and I will be avowing his name in front of My Father and before His messengers."

Rev 3:5 'The one overcoming, this [one] will be clothed in white garments, and by no means will I blot out his name from the Scroll of Life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

1 John 5:4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;

1 John 5:4 For every child of God overcomes the world; and the victorious principle which has overcome the world is our faith.

1 John 5:4 Because, whoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith.

1 John 5:4 Because every one having been begotten from God overcomes the world, and this is the victory having overcome the world — your faith!

this is the victory that overcometh — Greek aorist, “... that hath (already) overcome the world”: the victory (where faith is) hereby is implied as having been already obtained (1Jo_2:13; 1Jo_4:4). JFB

One commentators comments on Rev. 3:5 are as follows:

Christ promises every true Christian that He will not erase his name from the book of life, but will confess his name before the Father and before His angels. Incredibly, although the text says just the opposite, some people assume that this verse teaches that a Christian's name can be erased from the book of life. They thus foolishly turn a promise into a threat. Exodus 32:33, it is argued by some, supports the idea that God may remove someone's name from the Book of Life. In that passage the Lord tells Moses that "whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." There is no contradiction, however, between that passage and Christ's promise in Revelation 3:5. The book referred to in Exodus 32:33 is not the Book of Life described here, in Philippians 4:3, and later in Revelation (13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27). Instead, it refers to the book of the living, the record of those who are alive (cf. Ps. 69:28). The threat, then, is not eternal damnation, but physical death.

In John's day, rulers kept a register of the citizens of a city. If someone died, or committed a serious crime, their name was erased from that register. Christ, the King of heaven, promises never to erase a true Christian's name from the roll of those whose names were "written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (13:8).

On the contrary, Christ will confess every believer's name before God the Father and before His angels. He will affirm that they belong to Him. Here Christ reaffirmed the promise He made during His earthly ministry: "Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:32). The comforting truth that true Christians' salvation is eternally secure is the unmistakable teaching of Scripture. Nowhere is that truth more strongly stated than in Romans 8:28--39 - John MacArthur.

What is then the assurance of salvation? or is there really an assurance of salvation.

Does someone knows the future, how can you say that someone or you yourself is save when you are unsure of the future and that you may fall out of grace anytime sooner or later.

Do we have to grope in the dark about our salvation and say that only the future can tell.

How much sin, what sin, how long is the backsliding before someone is blotted out from the book of life_or is this question rather is moot and academic.

I'm not a believer of OSAS myself but you may have to ask these for yourself and for others, believers and non-believers or we may as well but just chasing the wind, hoping for an unsure future.

How much sin, what sin, how long is the backsliding before someone is blotted out from the book of life_or is this question rather is moot and academic.

In my view, there is nothing moot about salvation. Yeshua died horribly that we might choose to be righteous in Him.

We cannot do that by ceaselessly turning our back on Him, yet sin is automatically in us. We can no more stop sinning, than we can stop breathing and remain alive. Our righteousness is attributed to us by Christ's actions, not our own.

Yet, we must set our faces towards Yeshua, and try with all our strength to co-operate with the Holy Spirit, Who does the changes in us towards a holy life and a new personhood. When we become aware of having sinned, we must repent, and seek forgiveness. As the Spirit grows within us we will sin less, and delight more in Adonai, and try ever harder to keep from straying off the path.

But Yeshua says in Revelation over and over that we must finish our course, despite the opposition we attract by walking in the Light. This does not mean reaching perfection of thought or action, but continuing to try to, even to the point of death, as an on going action, until we are stopped by force.

Salvation in Yeshua is a gift that we cannot deserve ... ever! We can only try to be as much like our Lord as we can, for as long as we are alive, knowing our weakness, and delighting in the strength of the Spirit.

Revelation 3
5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Yet another pointless debate on Calv/Arm...

That said, I begin to grasp the fundamental difference between Calvinistic way of thinking and Non-Calvinistic one

- The calvinists will take the "bright side" of the text and will acknowledge that those who are "begotten" by God will overcome (because of their faith) which IS biblical, they are right
=> They deliberately focus on the road (Jesus) and the destination (Jesus), they give no provision to the flesh, and they are right...

- The non-calvinists will rather consider the countless exhortations Jesus made, whether it be explicit or implied, (like John 15, Rev 3, Demas, James 5, 1 Tim 6, 2 Tim 4, etc.) on the danger AND the reality of "losing" salvation, and they are right too
=> They have their attention on the sign posts, they know that the flesh CANNOT please God and is just looking for any occasion to go back to it former habits and thus to wordly living, they acknowledge that Paul's command to "die to self" was not in vain, and they are right too...

As for me, I will now sound very untheologic but By the grace of God I will look on the road (from Jesus to Jesus, author and finisher of our faith) AND on the sign posts (those examples for us NOT to follow 1 Cor 10, especially verse 6 and 10). Practically, when I chat with ultra-calvinists (not automatically hyper) I will sound very arminian, on the other side, when I talk with an ultra-arminian who is struggling with his eternal INsecurity, I would throw some verses on God holding us in His hands...

For me then, the key is the BALANCE! the BALANCE! and now in closing, if you still want to keep on debating, answer the following questions:

- How God can be Love and Holiness??? (take a verse at random, in Isaiah for instance where God abruptly stopped threatening Israel and begins to stretch out His hands with love)
=>That's absolute nonsense, yet that's what it is, and I have no problem accepting these truths since they are held (by God btw) IN BALANCE

- "Answer God all you theologians reasoning out my theology. Just answer God. Are you pure in heart?" - Keith Daniel

Blessings

this is a good examlple of some who will be saved ,,but are still warned to stay in the boat

this is an anaoligy of those who are the lords sheep
my sheep hear my voice and they follow me ,and i know them
and i give them eturnal life and thay shal not perish

he who is born of god ,does not sin ,because gods seed is in him and he can not sin

he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one can not touch him

these are promises

in the same way the angle of the lord promises that not one in the ship will be lost

but as with those who are saved god uses warning to keep those who are young ,in the ship

But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed. 23 Last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me 24 and said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.’ 25 So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me. 26 Nevertheless, we must run aground on some island.”

The Shipwreck
27 On the fourteenth night we were still being driven across the Adriatic[c] Sea, when about midnight the sailors sensed they were approaching land. 28 They took soundings and found that the water was a hundred and twenty feet[d] deep. A short time later they took soundings again and found it was ninety feet[e] deep. 29 Fearing that we would be dashed against the rocks, they dropped four anchors from the stern and prayed for daylight. 30 In an attempt to escape from the ship, the sailors let the lifeboat down into the sea, pretending they were going to lower some anchors from the bow. 31 Then Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 So the soldiers cut the ropes that held the lifeboat and let it drift away

unless you endure till the end you will nt be saved

but this is the will of god ,that all that the father gives me i shall lose none

my sheep hear my voice and thay follow me

and i give tto them eturnal life,and they shal never perish

those in the boat are under the protection as those who are truly born again ,, that same principle is obvious

the men in the ship are a parrable decribing us who are saved ,,,but some of us need to be warned not to leave the boat , tho god still noes his sheep and protetes his sheep ,

for he is our shepard

if we can understand each other more then this conversation is worth it

weasly loved whitfield

weasly the chapion arminian ,told those who herd that we should all keep close to the doctrines of whifield ,who was a calvinist
it brings tears to my ,i wish ,that we all could say that to one another
let stick close to one anothers doctrines
the coin has two sides

Salvation is a person and an ongoing relationship
God first loved us and gave us his Son that whoever believeth in him shall have everlasting life and not be wasted
If we truly value the gift of eternal life and are willing to die so that we may live then Jesus will keep us in his hand
He that endureth to the end will be saved
Let us run the race set before us that we may obtain the crown of life
If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

jesus said many are called but few are chosen

many who are called for eturnal life
are drawn by the holy spirit and even taste the holy spirt and powers of the age to come ,but fall away ,and do not indure ,, satan steels away the seed from there heart

all who are called have there names writtern in the book of life but only those who are chossen ,are the ones whose names will not be blotted out from the book of life

that is how isee that verse in revalation

many who are not truly born again taste of the holy spirit ,begin to repent begin to have faith begin to be santfied exisises spiritual power but fall away they say to the lord did we not cast out demons in your name did we not this did we not that ,jesus will say to them depart from me you workers of iniquity ,I NEVER NEW YOU ,,,for they are not will to deni them selfs ,and as jesus said are not worthy to be called a deciple

most veres that are used to refute the persaverence of the saints are also interpretad by the calvinists

if we study the great men of revivle like jonathen edawrds ,george whitfield we see that they defended evey verse in the bible with sound words ,tho i cant say i except or understand all of what these me knew ,there wisdom was obvious,and there lives produced great revivles which changed the world ,,that i respect weather i understand them or not ,,,they were men of prayer and saints of the most high

hi brother

keeping gods comandments is the evedence of the newbirth
or being in christ

i dont believe for one seconed ,that it means if we keep his commands ,we will acheve or work our way to salvation

if your baring good fruit your a good tree

i your baring bad fruit ,your a bad tree

not
if you baring good fruit you will become a good tree

i think the whole letter of john is auneque letter for the persaverence of the saints ,and for the condemnation of the false professer

Ah Old Joe you are a tricky one ;) but I like how you think my brother.

From what I read in 1 John 3:6,8-9 and what the Lord has given to me as the interpretation is our attitude toward sin has changed.

We cannot go on sinning as we once did before because we have seen the Christ and His Beauty and so sin looses its appeal and zest in our lives causing us to have it removed from us, and this is good because that is exactly what Christ did on the Cross for us, not only atoned for our sin BUT completely REMOVED it. Pretty awesome when you think about it.

I found something interesting in Leviticus 26:41b "-then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sins," And the wages of sin is death, this I believe is why Paul declares "It is no longer I who live but Christ. We are already dead in our sins but Christ becomes our New Life through Grace, and His grace is New and Infinite each day as Christ works out of me the death that remains on the inside.

The closer I get to God the more wicked I become (or see myself as more wicked in the True Light) When exposed to full on light you can no longer hide in the dark.

Attitude my friend is everything and its only through Christ can such an attitude exsist because I am a wretch that if left unleashed by the Holy Spirit would run to sin with great zeal BUT alas the Seed of Christ in me doesn't allow for such tomfooler.

Hope that makes sense :)

i wount god as fsr as saying that a christan can commit the same sins as lost sinner ,his concence wont allow him to go that far

honestly have you ever met a christan who rapes and muders ,and practice sodomy ,,,,,,,,well i havent ,nor have i herd of any

but look at peter who fell in to hearcy , christans can definitly fall in to sin , but if they are trul born again,,the can not stay in that sin and falla way

john said ,,he who is born of god KEEPS himself and the evil one does nt touch

or another translation ,say the lord keeps him

the bible shows the satan as one who can tepnt and draw a person away

the parable of the jesus talks about the word of god in the heart of a person being stolen by the satan

this cant happen to the true christan

hjohn said he who is born of god ,does not sin ,for hid seed is in him and HE CANNOT sin because he is born of god

he said if some basicaly leaves the church ,or falls away

they went out from us becasue they weren not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with us

he who practices righeousness is of god

but he who sins is of the devil ,for the devil has sinned from the beggining

if a so called chrstan has always sinned from the beginning of his so called christan walk ,god seed is not in him he has no repntance ,and is not achristan but is still of the evil one

the prince and power of the air is the spirit that works in him , fo he is a child of disobedence

Old_Joe

the closer I have gotten to the Lord the clearer light I have seen myself in, so that I see no difference between myself and the guy in the gutter.

Your statement is so true. I think Isaiah saw his trueself when he said, "I am a man of unclean lips".

By seeing ourselves in His light, we know that our only hope is in Jesus. We are all most pitiful sinners. I also agree with what you said about growth being sometimes "indiscernable". I have come to see this is true. Another reason to place our complete hope in Him and not look at ourselves and judge ourselves as having arrived. Or compare ourselves with others. We will always look good when comparing ourselves with others because we will always look for others shortcomings (when we are in "comparision mode" as opposed to Love).

Is knowing the Bible, evidence of growth in Him? Is doing good deeds evidence of growth in Him? Is giving my body to be burned even evidence of growth in Him? 1 Cor 13, says no.

I think many that we don't think will be in heaven, WILL BE in heaven (the man in the gutter) and many we think will be in heaven, WON'T BE in heaven.

Those who self-justify themselves will not be in heaven.

Many times I wish I could see true Christianity around me because I see so much that is false. I guess that is the way it is suppose to be. And the Lord always brings the focus back on me, to be true, to trust in Him and not myself.

This walk is hard and difficult. Is it not meant to be? I feel like I am constantly in warfare. Is this typical? If I don't feel a war have I succumbed and surrendered to sin?

Some people make it sound like once you are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, all is beautiful and well and you are dripping with fruit. I don't feel this way. The closer I want to get to God, the more obstacles I encounter. Myself for one. Are some people just gifted and talented in such a way that outwardly they look so victorious but really don't have a deep life with God? This is my question and my fear, that I will learn how to "be good" at walking around as a "victorious" Christian, how to "play the game", I guess you could say. And then become content in my spiritual deception that "I am so spiritual". This is fearful to me, because I would stop running to the Lord. I would have learned how "to use Him" for my own ends and appear so holy to everyone.

Am I making any sense to anyone? Am I the only one that has these battles?

I am a fairly new believer and am not put off by what Old_Joe says. I find what he says refreshing and truthful and it speaks to my limited experiences. Being born-again, I am not afraid to hear the truth and much rather prefer it to rose colored glasses. Besides, what could be worse than what God has already shown me about myself? I have already been destroyed in exchange for Him and welcome more destruction (for I know there is more dying to do) if it brings me closer to Him. It does not bother me in the least if fruit that He is developing in me does not come to maturity for a long time. I can see how this might be possible in my spirit and in fact most probable.

Let me ask a question to all of you that have walked with God for years and years. When did you start seeing true eternal fruit in your lives that the Lord is pleased to receive and eat? If you say one or two years, then I must be a very miserable child of His, but even here, I won't compare myself with you. I can only compare myself to Him and in doing so, I will always fall short, but gladly as long as I am keeping my eyes on Him. I guess the thing we must all watch out for is our love growing cold and we just "play the game", because we have gotten so good at it.

With love,
Sarah

Are not all called? The few that are chosen are birthed by God and He does not ask if the chosen want to be chosen. If it were not for the few that are chosen there would be none, no not one that would choose God.

We are saved completely in Spirit, that is where our new life is. The Spirit of Christ "born again" in the ones that are chosen and given to Christ by the Father. This body of flesh is still on the road to distruction, death. This soul, that is now separated by the two edged sword, is on the road to becoming the mind, will and intellect of the mind of Christ and even different in every one of God's chosen sons, as different as the flowers of the field.

So why did God not choose to renew the body of flesh at the same time as the Spirit of Christ birthed in us, or renew our mind to the Mind of Christ at the same time. Then is when we would become robots as those that won't accept the election and choosing of God, robots as the reason man has a choice in his salvation. We do not, but we do have a choice in the Love affair that God wants from His chosen sons. Now I can choose to love God as a free will to give God and His Son and the Holy Spirit all the Glory and Love they desirve and want and glory in. Can you believe that God wants to Glory in the small love I can return to Him of my own free will. For I can do this by the Spirit and Mind of Christ through the power and direction of our Teacher and Comforter the Holy Spirit.

Paul declares it and Jesus Commands it. Love.

Colossians 1:4-8 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

By this we know that we are the son's of God.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

The old commandment, Love God, the New commandment, love one another.

This is what this undeserved, lost and sinful son has been blessed with that we might overcome and Love "as He loved us and gave Himself for us".

In Christ by the Love of the Father and the Love and sacrifice of the Son and the Work of the Holy Spirit:

Phillip

Dear Sarah,

You said:

Am I making any sense to anyone? Am I the only one that has these battles?

Hearing you 'loud and clear.' You are not alone.

Kind regards,
white stone

I can see myself no different than the guy in the gutter if it had not been for the grace of God. But the grace of God that brought me salvation has also become my teacher.

Titus 2:11-14 (NKJV) 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

I have followed this thread somewhat and have found JIG has offered very good biblical commentary.

I have read many of her posts and it is evident that she exalts her Savoir and his Word very well in whom she strives to love with all her heart as well as his people and the lost. She gives more clear teachings on how to live a godly life in Christ Jesus than some others who try to make one feel good by justifying sinning.

Finally, the bible never justifies sinning in anyone. The Savior only justifies the sinner who turns to God’s mercy in Christ and by placing faith in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins. The fully justified sinner will cease from sinning as a lifestyle because he is born of God. He will struggle with the sin nature and will need to grow in sanctification. He/she will need a revelation of the teaching of the cross and being crucified with Christ and how to walk in the Spirit found in Rom chapter 6-8. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ. We must never excuse sin but we must point them to the remedy in the finished work of Christ.

Blessings to all!

Paul, a called apostle by God's election of grace and Matt a called saint by God's election of grace,express my own heart on the matter. Lamenting over,not glossing over,their sin. Acknowledging their sin,not justifying their sin.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal.5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions. Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail.

Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

What he complains of - the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law. The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, Rom. 7:14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1 Cor. 3:1. Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1 Kings 21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell - sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will - sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, Rom. 7:15. And to the same purport, Rom. 7:19, Rom. 7:21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after. Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Phi_3:12. Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside. (3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, Rom. 7:18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1 John 3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it? For the flesh serveth the law of sin (Rom. 7:25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen. 6:3, John 3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, Rom. 7:23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin - in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts. This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (Rom. 7:25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin. (5.) His general complaint we have in Rom. 7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul. Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb. 9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature.

Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, “O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!” But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain. Who shall deliver me? He speaks like one that was sick of it, that would give any thing to be rid of it, looks to the right hand and to the left for some friend that would part between him and his corruptions. The remainders of indwelling sin are a very grievous burden to a gracious soul.

2. What he comforts himself with. The case was sad, but there were some allays. Three things comforted him: -
(1.) That his conscience witnessed for him that he had a good principle ruling and prevailing in him, notwithstanding. It is well when all does not go one way in the soul. The rule of this good principle which he had was the law of God, to which he here speaks of having a threefold regard, which is certainly to be found in all that are sanctified, and no others. [1.] I consent unto the law that it is good, Rom. 7:16, sumphēmi - I give my vote to the law; here is the approbation of the judgment. Wherever there is grace there is not only a dread of the severity of the law, but a consent to the goodness of the law. “It is a good in itself, it is good for me.” This is a sign that the law is written in the heart, that the soul is delivered into the mould of it. To consent to the law is so far to approve of it as not to wish it otherwise constituted than it is. The sanctified judgment not only concurs to the equity of the law, but to the excellency of it, as convinced that a conformity to the law is the highest perfection of human nature, and the greatest honour and happiness we are capable of. [2.] I delight in the law of God after the inward man, Rom. 7:22. His conscience bore witness to a complacency in the law. He delighted not only in the promises of the word, but in the precepts and prohibitions of the word; sunēdomai expresses a becoming delight. He did herein concur in affection with all the saints. All that are savingly regenerate or born again do truly delight in the law of God, delight to know it, to do it - cheerfully submit to the authority of it, and take a complacency in that submission, never better pleased than when heart and life are in the strictest conformity to the law and will of God. After the inward man; that is, First, The mind or rational faculties, in opposition to the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh. The soul is the inward man, and that is the seat of gracious delights, which are therefore sincere and serious, but secret; it is the renewing of the inward man, 2 Cor. 4:16. Secondly, The new nature. The new man is called the inner man (Eph_3:16), the hidden man of the heart, 1 Pe_3:4. Paul, as far as he was sanctified, had a delight in the law of God. [3.] With the mind I myself serve the law of God, Rom_7:25. It is not enough to consent to the law, and to delight in the law, but we must serve the law; our souls must be entirely delivered up into the obedience of it. Thus it was with Paul's mind; thus it is with every sanctified renewed mind; this is the ordinary course and way; thitherward goes the bent of the soul. I myself - autos egō, plainly intimating that he speaks in his own person, and not in the person of another.

(2.) That the fault lay in that corruption of his nature which he did really bewail and strive against: It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. This he mentions twice (Rom_7:17, Rom_7:20), not as an excuse for the guilt of his sin (it is enough to condemn us, if we were under the law, that the sin which does the evil dwelleth in us), but as a salvo for his evidences, that he might not sink in despair, but take comfort from the covenant of grace, which accepts the willingness of the spirit, and has provided pardon for the weakness of the flesh. He likewise herein enters a protestation against all that which this indwelling sin produced. Having professed his consent to the law of God, he here professes his dissent from the law of sin. “It is not I; I disown the fact; it is against my mind that it is done.” As when in the senate the major part are bad, and carry every thing the wrong way, it is indeed the act of the senate, but the honest party strive against it, bewail what is done, and enter their protestation against it; so that it is no more they that do it. - Dwelleth in me, as the Canaanites among the Israelites, though they were put under tribute: dwelleth in me, and is likely to dwell there, while I live.

(3.) His great comfort lay in Jesus Christ (Rom_7:25): I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. In the midst of his complaints he breaks out into praises. It is a special remedy against fears and sorrows to be much in praise: many a poor drooping soul hath found it so. And, in all our praises, this should be the burden of the son, “Blessed be God for Jesus Christ.” Who shall deliver me? says he (Rom_7:24), as one at a loss for help. At length he finds an all-sufficient friend, even Jesus Christ. When we are under the sense of the remaining power of sin and corruption, we shall see reason to bless God through Christ (for, as he is the mediator of all our prayers, so he is of all our praises) - to bless God for Christ; it is he that stands between us and the wrath due to us for this sin. If it were not for Christ, this iniquity that dwells in us would certainly be our ruin. He is our advocate with the Father, and through him God pities, and spares, and pardons, and lays not our iniquities to our charge. It is Christ that has purchased deliverance for us in due time. Through Christ death will put an end to all these complaints, and waft us to an eternity which we shall spend without sin or sigh. Blessed be God that giveth us this victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Matt Henry

Sarah, each one of us is created different and last time I checked there are none that carry a cross that is anything but bloody (daily). Though we are joined by the one and only God we move at varying paces and that is not a bad thing. If you ask for a standard i am sure you will only be pointed to Christ. When you really consider the thought, would you want it any other way?

Just in your honesty alone there is fruit. This is not to stir up pride in you, for we all fear the robbery to Christ that comes by pride. You do desire sanctification even at the cost of your own destruction. That sounds like faithfulness to me (a fruit of the Spirit)

You ask a question of fruit. Even though I can only see words written by other brothers and sisters one can read what is in their hearts. That for the love of Christ they point not to themselves. but desire that Christ receive not some, but all the glory He is due.

What kind of Christ lover does Mathew 25:37-39 describe.

They hunger and thirst for righteousness but in their blessed ignorance (and it is a beautiful ignorance) they say," LORD WHEN DID WE
SEE YOU HUNGRY AND FEED YOU OR THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? WHEN DID WE SEE YOU A STRANGER AND INVITE YOU IN, OR NAKED AND CLOTH YOU? OR SEE YOU SICK AND VISIT YOU OR IN PRISON AND COME AND COMFORT YOU"?

So while there may be some response as to sanctification and maturity, you will probably not solicit one boasting of fruit. Can you even imagine the potential and all the possibilities that can come by the fruit of the Spirit?

This is the lot of the Righteous. They do not storm the gates pleading their case for they have none, and they do not recognize their own fruit for their eyes are always fixed on Christ.

hi, if you could live without sin then Jesus died in vain . all He had to do is tell us how to to be perfect.but He went to a bloody cross and took the wrath of His Father on Himself because He knew how weak we are and anything we do in God must come from God and not from us.it all about grace.the repentantturn their will and lives over to Jesus.He is the one who is Holy,perfect,sinless, and we are in Him.jimp

hi, the Lord does chasten those He loves and your sins surely will find you out. you are suffering in the body for things you have done in the body.jimp it is very hard to put down that idol.

i feel for you end zone ,,,,,, your, story is a rebuke to others in a similar situation ,,, i will pray

can i ask what you mean by acted on it

did you have sexual relanship with prostatutes

The work of the faith of Christ work is to overcome the spirit that rule the fallen world , this is the purpose of HIS Coming ,and it is His faith that overcome the world . In our fallen nature the devil works in our soul and we produce His evil fruits but if Christ is truly walking in our soul He must work to destroy those works of the devil in us , because that is the purpose of His coming , to bring in His fruit . How can one be safe without eternal Life ? and How can one get the eternal Life of God without manifesting that very Life of the holiness of God from glory to glory. And who can see God without His holiness ? we are safe by Christ Life in us not just by a manifestation of gifts , it is by His life not the gifts are we safe.
What is Christ Life ? Is it eternal life or not ?
If it is in us in any measure , will it bear good fruit or not ?
What is the difference between our own life and Christ Life ?
If we are reprobate or rebellious is that a sign that Christ life is in us or not, what does the scripture says?
If Christ Life is not in us are we in him or not ?
Why do we fall is it because we cling to Christ or not ?
If we fall and refuse to return and be reconcile to Christ that he might manifest His life afresh in us , are we still in Him though His life is not in us ?

Did the Apostles actually live in full obedience. John himself says if you say you have no sin, you are a liar.

With love,
Sarah

If any man says He has not sin or the nature of sin in his natural state He is sure a Liar , but there is a Savior whose works is to destroy sin by giving us His life depending on how much hunger we have toward His nature and the apostle John that His blood has the power to cleanse us from all righteousness not only some unrighteousness but all unrighteousess and He also recognize the true faith of Christ working in us will overcome the world .
It look like many times he does not many works of manifesting His full Life in us because of unbelief , for let not he that doubted think to receive anything thing from God. Trial and adversity brings in doubt but when the soul is willing to be still and not lean on His own understanding He will sure know true Victory that comes through Christ manifesting His life in us from Glory to glory.

Paul is not encouraging sinning, however, I find it interesting that he say "I AM" instead of "I WAS".

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

In relative to his natural state without Christ he is "I am " but in relative to who he is in Christ it is "I was" .
It is a statement of showing who he is without Christ not in Christ.

Welcome brother , forget the past , if you will surrender all to Him He has the power to make all things new , and you will hear again the joyful sound of working in His true Light and freedom.

The Holy Spirit will be in you forever.

Quote: """But I also had that horrible sin addiction in my life, and about a year ago the Holy Spirit moved far away from me."""

He does not move, we do the moving. How can we be set free from this body of sin? Paul says, "only through Jesus Christ". In Christ, we are set free, "free indeed".
It is our old man mind that is still wanting to pleasure the flesh we still live in. It is a slow process of cleansing, but "He will finish the work He has started".
If not I am surely lost.

Endzone, how can we be set free? By faith, we are free indeed. We now have to work out our salvation, becoming like the Christ that is in us and live our individual lives as sons of God, wanting to please God our Father.

It aint easy brother. But, we must never give up, keep on trucking, until we get rid of this body of flesh it will be a fight. Put on the whole armour of God, which is Christ and Him fully the only way we can overcome.

In Christ: Phillip

Endzone,

David prayed for God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation in repenting of his sins.

Notice the bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 (NKJV) 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "the two," He says, "shall become one flesh." 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Notice also 1 John 1:7-10 (NKJV) 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Notice 1 John 2:1-5 (NKJV) 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Notice also 1 John 2:26-29 (NKJV) 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

I will stop with the scriptures for now but here is what I want you to see that willful sin is always sinning against the light one has received. As long as one is obedient to confess all known sin and walk in the light he will continually be cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Contrary to what some will try and tell you but there are sins that have a worse consequence than others and therefore have a more damaging affect to us and others.

Walking in known sin always breaks fellowship of walking in the light with God and must be confessed and cleansed in order for continual fellowship with God.
Endzone, it is only the mercy and grace of God that you or any of us are not in hell right now. It is only because of His mercy and grace that after all those years of immorality that God didn’t turn you over to a reprobate mind to never be able to feel conviction again but it seems to me that he has shown you mercy.

I remember almost 28 years ago that I thought God had turned me over to where his Spirit of conviction would not strive with me anymore. I felt like God was going to let me go where I would never be able to feel His presence again and that I would be lost forever. I tell you that it scared me right into conviction and I wasn’t happy anymore until I cried out for mercy and forgiveness. I told God that I was tired of living the way I was living and that I wanted Jesus living in my heart and life. I cried out to God as my Heavenly Father asking Him to get this corruption out of my life and to cleanse me because I was going to hell with all this stuff in me. I will never forget it, there was a powerful Spirit filling me and I felt so clean that I was praising and thanking the Lord. I started on a journey with God that I have fallen short of pleasing God on many occasions but I have never gone back to where I was before that day. There is not a man other than Jesus who can please God all the time every moment of every day but you don’t ever have to go back to those sins he has cleansed you from.

I believe you can be cleansed if you are desperate enough to want to be rid of your past forever and start all over a fresh and anew. Pray with all your heart to God and read 1 John chapters 1-5 and read Romans chapters 3-8 and believe with all your heart.

I know there are a lot of people who believe in the Lord somewhat but have not been truly regenerated, that is, born of God. I believe that when one has been truly born of God he/she has been indwelt by the Spirit of Christ and with their faith in God will be able to overcome all kinds of sins. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us and greater is He who is within us than he who is in the world.

Remember we are saved to have fellowship and walk with God and not to walk of our own choosing. The only way to stay cleansed of all sin by the blood of Jesus is to continually walk in the light for continual fellowship with God. Having daily fellowship with God is what is most important. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that God hath before ordained that we walk in. We are saved by grace through faith to have fellowship first and good works will follow from our relationship with God.

Blessings to you!

Endzone wrote:
I am sick in my spirit and more tormented by demonic spirits all my waking hours. I have also become physically sick from my sins and I am weak during the day. I have not been able to find a job in over 2 years.

Brother, and yes you are still a brother,

I was reading the June 2011 issue of The Herald of His Coming just this morning while getting my oil changed and it is right up your alley! The article's title is EXCEPT YE REPENT... http://www.heraldofhiscoming.com/Past%20Issues/2011/June/except_ye_repent.htm

Hope this helps,
Sister Lisa

hi, there is no doctrine called once saved always saved... the docrtine is the eternal security of the believer.and if you are a beiever in Christ and what He did on the cross for you than you are secure.jimp what sin in a believers life is stronger than the blood of the Lamb? what sin was not conquered on the cross?sin is a major problem on the earth but Jesus is the answer to the problem and if not for grace and mercy coming from the cross there would be no salvation on the earth.jimp

1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, elect,according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Grace unto you and peace be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.(1corinthains 5v11)
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."(1corinthians 6v18-20)
Endzone the Truth is what God desire in you is restoration, His mercy is infinite but its purpose is to manifest His nature which is TRUTH in us. Without His mercy none of us will be safe yet that mercy is not seperate to HIS truth. The grace of God will not manifest in you if you did not first repent. God desire and love you more than you know but the will of HIS love is that HE will have HIS way in you and that is Truth. You must have a contrite heart in repentance then will HE manifest HIS power in you.
The salvation of your soul is something not be taken with lightness and God can never Justify any in sin or unholiness. He desire to walk with you as He work with every saint past or present , but without HIS holiness in you how can you see HIM.
The one that gives Comfort in sin is none but the voice of the wicked one, but God will manifest His mercy when you repent with a contrite heart , and HE will give you HIS grace to walk in TRUTH because you humble yourself before as for the proud HE resist them and they can never get HIS grace. Humble yourself under HIS might power in repentance .

hi, i am righteous because He is righteous...i am Holy because He is holy ... i am in Christ and am walking in the spirit so when the Father looks at me He seess the glory of His Son. there is no condemnation for He took the judgement of the Father upon Himself.i am dead and the life i live is not my life but Christs who liveth in me.it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. His mercies are new every morning so i like paul die daily and dead men have already completed the sentence and his wages. i am so glad you are saved because you do not do all that wickedness but i am totally trusting in the sloppiest agape there is .the love of Jesus and his mercy and grace and if i go to hell then so be it v=for there is none good no not one.i will put my faith and future in the nail scared hands of Jesus and Him only.jimp

suducing spirits are verry real

paull talked about some people recieving other spirits
thee spirits imatate the holy spirit ,but with out the same conviction of sin ,and you will think that these spirit are godly spirit

to sin for thirty years with out powerfull conviction in the first months of you walk with this spirit
is indacationg that this is not the holy spirit that you recieved

there is a verry power suding spirit that operates in the pentacostal carasmatic ring

todd bently was one who wealed this spirt ,as did others before him ,,,rodney howerd brown

can i ask if you have been influneced by this new wave of spirituality

one can recieve this spirit ,and never be born of god

this is more then likly what has happened in this case ,end zone

many people can even taste of the holy spirit at the beginning of there spiritual walk ,and never be truly born again , you may have tasted the power of god drawing you to him self ,and then you turned to an experance in conection with thes false blessing

but i dont believe a born again christan can do that

i dont to start quoting scripture

but ,,,he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one cannot touch him

from you confession the evil is now touching you and tormenting you

he who is born of god does not sin because god seed is in him and he cannot sin because he is born of god

you have continued in sin with out repentance

the bible is clear

let the sword of the spirit cut you deep

brother if you believe you are saved ,,you will never repent ,you need to stop beleieving you are a child of god ,,,,,,and start hearing the word of god like a lost sinner does,so that you might repent believe and call on the lord to save you ,, if you dont ,, you will never make it ,,dont put it off , you may not have much time left

i dont no what else to say

i dont want to give you a false scence of security

find some sermons of rolf barnad ,and listen to 20 or more sermons and let the word cut deep

im trembling wile i write ,,,hear his word brother please ,please hear it

Endzone,

Jesus-is-God is a female. She started on SI as GrannyAnnie then got banned and came back for a brief stint as He_Reigns. Snuck back in as Jesus-is-God and has been here ever since. One of the things she is known for is spelling Oy Vey as Hoy Vey. Seems a cross between Spanish and English. You can search SI to see this. Also known for boasting how she is pentecostal and attends a Reformed church.

Unfortunately, she has been allowed to stay as the token pit-bull of SI. Her "discernment" as she calls it is to attack, belittle and act condescendingly towards others. She is engaging in her own deception within SI.

She is not as "pure as the driven snow" as she likes to make people think. And yes, she may be successful in getting you banned. It has happened to many others.

There is no fellowship with her, just correction and condemnation. But SI allows her to stay and you can't fight that. At least you know the "whack job" you are dealing with.

Yes Endzone I am Gambia is sorounded almost on all side by river and in my village we are so near the rivers.
Yes about the state of the church in your country I will encourage you to look not on the works of man and what men are doing for even if Noah , did that in His generation he will have been destroy with the ungodly. When we judge things by what almost everyone is doing we will sure miss God will and purppose for our Life our salvation is personal and God does not need people to be right before he saves us . If we repent and seek His face in prayers and also occasional fasting He will give us His strength and also use the scripture to teach and guide us. Bless.

First of all God tempts not man to sin, we are carried away by our own lust and sin conceives

Even Paul had a thorn, we don't know what it was, but God said His Grace was enough.

How many of us are trusting the Grace of God to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, in our confession and agreement with God that we are lost and need the Blood of Christ to give us freedom from sin, that being in Christ and and Christ alone. I am not saved by what I do or don't do, I am saved because "I am" a bee-er in Christ, not a doo-er.

How many need to know how to be set free from unrighteousness and condemnation of each other in our lives.

I am 72 two and still fight every day for righteousness, and cry much because I cannot be like Christ as long I am still in this body of death that even Paul cried out, "How"
Only by the Christ in us. Let us have compassion and not judgement for each other. We all need it. If there is someone that does not need Grace and mercy and Christs blood, please give me the formula, for He is who I depend on for my only righteousness. 1 Cor 1:30 By Him and Him alone am I made righteousness before God, certainly not by what I do or think.

In Christ: Phillip

"Live for and Love one another as I have loved you and gave Myself for you". For you were lost and now you are found and found and continued founding until the day of redemption.

I cry out to God for others but I have not given my life yet or shed my blood for my brothers and sisters. He that is in us has and only by His propituation can I pray for others and myself.

Jesus is God wrote: """Please, read these verses especially centered around verse 22.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."""

This is the wonderful Word of God, by whom I am engrafted into, it is Christ the Word. Only He can save my soul.

James is wonderful, but without being a bee-er my doo-ship is as dirty rags to my Father. I am a bee-er because Christ is in me, born again by the incorruptable Seed of the Father which is the Word of God. John 1:1-4. I know what manner of man I was and am condemned, I know what manner of Man I Am, because of the Christ that is in me and I praise God always for His great Grace and the sacrifice He made of His only begotten son on the Cross, just to get me, unfathomable. There are no words that can give God the Glory He deserves for what He has done in Christ for the sons He wants in His own House. This is where I will be some day, not by my works but by His.

In Christ only by the Father who birthed Him in me:

James also wrote: James 1:19-20 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Phillip

Quote: """But let justice roll down like waters,
and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.

Amos 5:21-24""" Amen.

And who is this? 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

His is, Jesus Christ my wisdom; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4678. sophia
Search for G4678 in KJVSL
sojia sophia sof-ee'-ah
from 4680; wisdom (higher or lower, worldly or spiritual):--wisdom.

Righteousness; Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.
My Justice and Justification.

Sanctification; Strong's Greek Dictionary
38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.
I am Holy because He is Holy.

Redemption; Strong's Greek Dictionary
629. apolutrosis
Search for G629 in KJVSL
apolutrwsiV apolutrosis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083; (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.
I am ransomed in full, He paid the price.

"""But let justice roll down like waters,
and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream"""

In Christ: Phillip

hi,the problem with the church is not eternal security but false security.when a person comes to an altar hecomes to die.altars are places of sacrifice.when is the last time you heard an altar call that invited you to come and die?Jesus came and preached repent,john the baptist came and preached repent as did peter and paul.but a sinner cannot repent from sin for if he could he would not need a saviour.to repent is to turn the rule over your life from self rule to Jesus as your Lord and Master.in romans this is called walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh.good works than should flow out of this relationship. all sin is self centered and a christian is Jesus centered and then others centered.if Jesus is not Lord of all than in your life He is not Lord at all.these works are His works and nothing you can be proud of. a selfish man becomes a giver and a sexually tormented man becomes a man of God control.your conscience becomes very sensative so that your behaviour changes as you mature. it is all by grace and not of yourself lest you boast and criticize others. you must be born from above and unless the Holy Spirit births you, all your religeous activity is a dog and pony show that leads to destruction.He did not come into the world to condemn the world but to save us who live here and trust Him.jimp

hi, your right, it always is someone elses fault.my problem exactly... thank you.jimp

hi, after being cursed and mocked, Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. He took our pain on Himself at the cross... He took our rejection at the cross...we need to turn the othe cheek.jimp

Jesus is God wrote:

Quote; """These may seem like a lot, but they're really not compared to how many their are regarding our part in our Relationship with Him. I'm not a "teacher", but I do love doing topical studies from His Word.

Thank you for your reply to mine Brother. GOD Bless!

Php 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mathew 25 - the sheep & goats, etc.."""

with many etc'

With which none work without the first: Php 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The most important; "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Question; What is sinless perfection? Sounds like Jesus Christ is the only One who would qualify.

The Christ in the believer is the only sinless perfection I know of.

It is His Spirit in us that make us sinless before the Father. It is our love affair that works in our souls, mind will and intellect, that brings us into alignment with the mind of Christ, this is our striving to be as He is because we love Him. It is by Him that worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He wants a love affair with His children, which by their new birthing now have a nature to accomplish this in us. This is why our works are in and by His good pleasure. No condemnation, only stiving daily to defeat the old man mind and flesh we still live by. Oh, for the time when we no longer have to strive against this body of sin and death we still live in. Praise God, the day is coming and is at hand. Either in death or in the twinkling of an eye.

My works and striving without Christ are as dirty rags. All new believers need to know it is God who works in them, "both to do and to will to do of His good pleasure.
They cannot accomplish anything for God unless it is by His Son that is born again in them. Now the work of a new mind, the Same Mind that is Christ Jesus begins. We must be set free, and Christ is the only One that sets us free indeed, by His life that is now in us because of the incorruptable Seed of the Father. 1 Peter 1:23

In Christ: Phillip

Sorry to say I have been reading this thread.
Anyone listening to the Holy Spirit can discern the Truth.
Darkness hates the Light and the Truth.
Bless are we when persecuted for speaking the Truth in Love.
God Bless you Jesus-is-GOD.

amen to that bowmy

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Thes 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

I stand with Jesus-is-God and Old Joe and the poster who posted this:

. . . . Anyone listening to the Holy Spirit can discern the Truth. Darkness hates the Light and the Truth. Bless are we when persecuted for speaking the Truth in Love. God Bless you Jesus-is-GOD.

God is amazing and He never lets us down. Even in the valley of the shadow of death, His Spirit walks in us, not just with us. Truly answered prayer. Love and strength and power in Christ Jesus to you and JiG.

Love you both: Phillip

Ya, I never really bought this whole "one saved always saved" concept. The Bible is clear on this. There are many scriptures that supports otherwise. Of course God is merciful and wishing that none will perish but we cannot live however we want and be Saved! It's either God's way or....

Consider this text

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This scripture is deep. Once we REALLY come to know Christ there is no turning back. When you sin it does not mean you have fallen back but if you continue in your SINS and constantly reject the Holy Spirit work to change you then it is evident that you want nothing to do with God and it becomes impossible to come back to Christ cause you have ceased to allow Him in your life.

blessings!

Hebrews 6:4-6 are not isolated texts but ought to be read in their full context lest we miss the Spirit's teaching.

Continue and may the LORD the Spirit teach you...

Hebrews 6:9 "Yet we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved, and those which have to do with salvation, even if we are speaking thus."

"Better things (ta kreissona). “The better things” than those pictures in Heb.6:4-8." - RWP

"The apostle addresses the believing Hebrews, as "beloved"; being beloved by the Lord, not as the descendants of Abraham, but as the elect of God, and so as loved with an everlasting love; and which might be known to themselves, by its being shed abroad in their hearts, and by their being called by grace, and by their love to him, and to his people: and from hence they might conclude they should not fall away, as the apostates before spoken of; since, in consequence of being beloved by God, they were chosen in Christ unto salvation; Christ was given to die for them; they had the Spirit sent down into their hearts; they were justified, pardoned, and adopted; nor could they be separated from the love of God: and the apostle also so calls them, because they were beloved by him, not merely as being his countrymen, but as saints: and this he says to testify his affection to them; to show that what he said was not from hatred of them, or prejudice to them; and that his exhortations, cautions, and reproofs, might be better taken; and particularly that they might credit what he here says, that he was "persuaded better things" of them, than what he had said of others in Heb_6:4 even such as are expressed in Heb_6:10 he was persuaded they had the true grace of God; whereas the above mentioned persons had only gifts, when in the height of their profession; and the least degree of grace is better than the greatest gifts men can be possessed of: grace makes a man a good man, not gifts; a man may have great gifts and not be a good man; grace is useful to a man's self, gifts are chiefly useful to others; grace makes men fruitful, when gifts leave them barren in the knowledge of Christ; grace is lasting, when gifts fail, and cease and vanish away; grace will abide the fire of persecution, when gifts will not; grace is saving, gifts are not." - Gill

"What is "salvation?" In looking at salvation, we must consider it in two points of view; salvation wrought out for us, and salvation wrought out in us. Salvation was wrought out FOR the Church by the finished work of the Son of God, when he cried with expiring breath, "It is finished." The salvation of "the remnant according to the election of grace" was then completely accomplished, so that nothing could be added to, or taken from it; for "by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified;" and thus the Church stands complete in Christ, "without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing."

But there is a salvation which is wrought out IN the soul; the manifestation and application of that salvation which Jesus wrought out by his sufferings, blood-shedding, and death; and this we can only know experimentally so far as the blessed Spirit brings it into our hearts, and seals it there with holy unction and heavenly savor.

But all the people of God cannot feel sure they have this salvation as an experimental reality; doubts, fears, darkness, and temptations becloud their path; Satan hurls his fiery darts into their souls; and they are often unable to realize their saving interest in the Lord Jesus Christ and his salvation. They do not doubt that the Lord Jesus is the Savior of those who believe; they know that there is no other refuge for their guilty souls but the blood of the Lamb. They are effectually stripped from cleaving to a covenant of works; they are not running after things that cannot profit them, nor hiding their heads in lying refuges—from all these things they are effectually cut off by a work of grace on their souls.

But through the unbelief of their hearts, the deadness of their frames, the barrenness of their souls, and the various temptations they are exercised with, they fear they have not the marks of God's family, and are not able to realize their saving interest in the love and blood of the Lamb. The Apostle, therefore, speaks of "things that accompany salvation;" that is, certain marks and signs, certain clear and indubitable tokens of the work of grace on the soul. And, speaking to the Hebrews, he says for their comfort and encouragement, "We are persuaded," whatever be your doubts and fears, whatever the darkness of your mind, however exercised with sharp and severe temptations, "we are persuaded" you are in possession of those "better things," of those "things that accompany salvation;" and that this salvation is therefore eternally yours." - Philpot

In laymen terms what are you really saying?

What is necessary for forgiveness? 1 John 1:9 This falling away is not for believers, for it would be impossible to renew them again, which is what Paul is stressing, It is impossible for a believer to fall away because if they could they could not be renewed to repentance. The better things of who Paul is speaking to proves they cannot fallaway. Christ is in them and He will never leave them. What work has begun in them will be finished unto the Fathers specification for us to live in His House. Those specifications are what Christ did on the Cross, Through what Christ did, Giving Glory to God, that God might have sons in His house.

In Christ: Phillip

Hello Endzone, I also have had major difficulties with sexual addictions. I didn't think I could ever be free from them and was afraid to meet God when I died.

I had to drive the sins away from me which is a teaching which is missing about present day repentance.

It's not easy at all but God will move you into a place of closeness with Him. And you will have a message of repentance from God's heart for you and not from men ....

Once you start this process God will encourage you to keep going. Don't listen to men who will be convicted by your determination. Especially don't listen to your own wicked heart and satan who will reason with you to give in. Don't give up and you will overcome.

Be single minded and cause your eye to look away from your temptations.

My own testimony is of God warning me that my time on the earth was short. I became ill and was very fearful of dying. I began to repent.

I was led by God to go out onto the hills in the middle of the night and talk with Him. My fellowship and closeness became wonderful.

After I had changed the Lord became very personal with me and if I was to ever worry about the future I always hear his still voice calling out to me.

God is willing that none will perish but all will repent and be saved. The Spirit is always working to save us. If we are not saved it is our own fault! I am just tired of people making it sound like we can continue to indulge in sin and still be saved. Not biblical!

Romans 7:7-25 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Back to the basics; Verses 7-13.--"Is the law sin?" is the next question raised. It springs logically from the statement that the passions of sins, coming out of an evil, sinful heart, were by the law and bringing forth fruit unto death. Still another "God forbid" is the answer. The law was given that we might have through that law the knowledge of sin. "I had not known sin, but by the law." I would not be conscious of lust, unless the law said, "Thou shalt not covet." The law given by a holy God is God's detective. The law forbids and the commandment at once brings out what is in the heart of man. Therefore, no blame can be put upon the law. Sin is that which must be blamed. Sin is lawlessness, rebellion against God and the law brings out that rebellion. Therefore apart from the law sin was dead, that is, dormant. But as soon as the commandment is given, the evil heart rebels against it and man is detected to be a sinner and a transgressor. Let us notice the change of the pronoun "we" to "I." Some thirty times this little word "I" is found in verses 7-25. We are brought upon the ground of personal experience; it has to be discovered and learned experimentally. The Apostle personifies this experience and speaks thus personally describing how a believer learns the lessons about the law, how the law cannot help a justified believer, and but makes of him a wretched man. It must also have been his own experience.

"For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." This is the experience of a man who is ignorant of the spirituality of the law. He thinks himself alive, but when the commandment came, its spiritual demands realized (the law is spiritual, verse 14), the false notion of being alive was detected, for sin revived and he died, which means that sin, discovered by the law, condemned him to death. "And the commandment which was unto life was found for me to be unto death." In connection with the commandment, the law, it is written, "This do, and thou shalt live." And so in this experience--he tries next to get life by the law, but he found it was unto death, for the declaration of the law is "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Ga 3:10; De 27:26). He speaks of sin, his evil nature, as one who had deceived him into all this, so that the law could manifest its power in slaying him. Verse 12 is the real answer to the question, "Is the law sin?" The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good. And because the law is holy it gives knowledge of sin and detects sin, bringing it to light in all its hideousness and then pronounces the sentence of death. One other question is asked, "Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me?" God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." It all comes back upon sin (the evil nature, the flesh). Thus by the commandment sin becomes exceeding sinful.

Verses 14-24.--But all this must be learned by experience, especially the fact "I am carnal," the knowledge that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing and that I have no power, I am powerless against indwelling sin. What person is it who describes his experience in these words? Some have applied it exclusively to the Apostle. Others state that it pictures an awakened sinner and not a converted man. The man described is born again, but is in bondage to the law and is ignorant of his deliverance in Christ. We find first the statement "we know that the law is spiritual." This is the knowledge which a true Christian possesses concerning the law. And the Christian who knows this great truth, that the law is spiritual, also has learned another truth. "I am carnal and sold under sin." Here then it is where experience begins. True Christian experience is to know our full deliverance in Christ and to walk in the Spirit; the experience of a Christian in struggling with the old nature and discovering what is that old nature, the flesh, is put before us in verses 15-24. That we have here a converted person is seen by the fact first of all, that he does not want to do evil, he wants to do good and cannot do it and therefore hates what he does. The carnal nature, the flesh, which is still in a converted person, is thus demonstrated as enslaving him, however, he is no longer a willing slave, but he hates that old thing which has the mastery over him. In hating it and condemning sin, he does the same what the law does, for it also condemns sin. In this way he consents to the law that it is good. The seventeenth verse is of much importance. "Now then it is no more I that really do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He learns the difference between himself as born again, in possession of a new nature, and the old nature. He begins to distinguish himself as in possession of a new nature that wills to do good, hating evil, and sin in him, the flesh in which dwells nothing good, but all that is evil. "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." It is a great discovery to find out by experience, that although the believer is born again, he has a nature in him which is evil, which cannot bring forth a good thing. But the will is present with him to do good, because he is born again; however, he finds not the power in himself to perform what is good. And now the conflict between the two natures is on. It brings out some important facts. "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me." He as born again, no longer loves sin; he hates it. Because he does that which he does not want to do he can truthfully say "it is no more I that do it." Furthermore he delights in the law of God after the inward man. This can never be said of an unconverted man, but only he who has a new nature can delight in the law of God. But he finds himself in helpless captivity to the law of sin which is at work in his members. He finds out that while he has a new nature to will good and to hate evil, he has no power; sin is too strong for him. And this is to teach the believer that he must get power to overcome outside of himself. All his resolutions and good wishes cannot supply the strength to do. That he is self-occupied, seeking power by what he does and tries to do, is seen from the use of the little word "I." The name of the One in whom we have deliverance, Christ, is not mentioned once. The case is clear, it is the description of the experience of a believer, who is justified, born again, in union with Christ, dead with Him, risen with Him and indwelt by the Holy Spirit; but he lacks the knowledge of this and tries by his own efforts and in his own strength, through keeping the law, to obtain holiness. Having discovered that nothing good dwells in his flesh; that the flesh is not himself, but sin in him and that, because it is too strong for him, he is powerless, the cry of despair is uttered by him. "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He has reached the end of self. He looks now for deliverance from another source, outside of himself. The answer comes at once. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." In Him there is deliverance and what that deliverance is, we shall learn from the first four verses of the eighth chapter. The two laws are mentioned once more in the last verse of this chapter. With the mind, as born again, he serves the law and the law gives him no power; in the struggle with the old nature he is enslaved by the law of sin. From; Gaebelein's Annoted Bible

There is a difference in being under the Law and being in Christ. He is the only one that can set us free, by Faith that He will do it and has done it at the Cross. He is the One that pleases God, "My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

WE have the Mind of Christ. Let us renew our minds to it.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In Christ, whom pleases God the Father: Phillip