GOD IS NOT REALLY THREE PERSONS

This has been pulled off of the " 2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him" thread:

A sideline comment was first written by yours truly, as follows:

"[Still, i'm more than ever a twinitarian, which does not sit well with many]; but what do the scriptures say about the issue?

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. . ."

Then Christinyou responded with:

"Twin?

"I" don't believe so.

John 14:23-26 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love ((me,)) he will keep ((my)) words: and **my** Father will love him, and ((we)) will come unto him, and make ((our)) abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, ((but the Father's which sent me.)) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet (who's presence?) present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

All three, Trin; Jesus, The Father, The Comforter Holy Spirit.

About 2 Thess, Do we really believe that the timing of the end times is up to Satan, man, Nations or any thing else that puts itself above God. Sounds like giving satan the credit for Gods timing and Christs Cross. "The unpardonable sin"?

Twin takes away the birthing of Christ in the believer, the incorruptable Seed of the Father, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". "New Creature, New Creation life".

In Christ: Phillip
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Response to the query "About 2 Thess. . ." is on that thread.

Dear Brother "In Christ:'Phillip' "

We have had differences regarding the issue of the Holy Spirit, and punning 'twinity' was not called for or was it? Do you prefer (more appropriately) Dunity?

'Twinity' as in "He [Christ Jesus] is the image [the very same stamp-pressed coinage] of the invisible God," or "The fullness of the godhead bodily."

Nowhere do the scriptures state this regarding the Holy Spirit. In fact, rather than saying the holy spirit is God, the Bible repeatedly says the contrary. The Bible says the holy spirit is "of God." The scriptures never tell us anywhere God's spirit is completely God in all His fullness.

By analogy, the spirit of a human is only part of a human: the core of their existence.

A human is not human until the human spirit has as body to express their soul.

TO THOSE READING ALONG:
If you are interested in how all this is turning into what it will become, the following are links revealing (a hint of) the order as to how this realization progressed on SI:

A message through Bill McLeod:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=18112

This issue had been mentioned before when questions arose from learning of certain things via meditation on scriptures, however the two following threads are quite up front and more detailed than the others:

THREAD 1:
"I found this debate interesting "Trinity in the Old Testament"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34842&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0

&
THREAD 2:
Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35170&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

In answer to those things not responded to in the above threads, if another responds to you with something somebody else said, is that response actually something that person learned through experience? Are those things their own words? How up close and personal is the response? In short, do they really believe what they are giving you information about?
(I DON'T KNOW, but which seems more at home, down to earth, real, and something that person has really thought through: a personal response or to qoute someone else?

Nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit referred to as 'something other than-Christ.' Rather the contrary is true. The Holy Spirit is referred to as "The Spirit of Christ" when referred to personally, rather than with the impersonality of the adjective "Holy" and the non-personal noun "Spirit."

There is only one Lord and Christ ordained by El Elyon, namely, YHShVH ha' Maschiach.

Please would you consider the same fact that budgie mentions about pronouns (mentioned above) regarding the linguistics of expletive adjectives.

[Consider 'paraklete" EQUALS "one called along side (us)" as comforter, advocate, counselor, and so much more.

All these adjectives are what Jesus is to us, so why would anybody dare say that the spirit OF God is something other than OF God's Christ, being God's very revealtion of Himself to humanity?

Throughout Jesus discourse in John chapters 14 thru 16 many fail to realize the fact that this is a prophecy where, at the beginning speaking of Himself in the 1st person as Jesus (Christ) on earth, he progressing through this discourse, shifting to 3rd person references of Christ (Jesus) in heaven as well as his His future ministry in the earth (after He is to be re-united with our Father, (see John 17.5)--
consider that none of the prophets, neither Jesus, nor any of the apostles, as well as nobody else throught the whole Bible has ever claimed that the Spirit of God is anything other than the fullness of all that God is, expressed in various ways through this physical venue called earth.

We have no example in the Bible:

--to consider this Spirit of the Lord and Christ as anything other than God's own personal spirit, the spirit --(to us, the real core is)-- of God, (rather than the person of God).
--to trust in the Holy Spirit
--to confess to the Holy Spirit
--to pray to the Holy Spirit
--to serve the Holy Spirit
--to worship or even praise THE 7 SPIRITS OF GOD (being one: the Holy Spirit)
. . . OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT THE PERSON's OF GOD, BE THIS FATHER OR SON, ARE TO RECIEVE THROUGH OUR COMMUNION and/or INTERACTION WITH HIM!

(though He does express Himself (and His Truth) through His own spirit--for God is spirit, and Holy at that.)
To say that the Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person from the Father and the Son, who are the Godhead might just be saying that God is not spirit.

As God has proclaimed, "My people shall know my name," even so, we are revealed both the names of our Father and (His only begotten:) our firstborn Brother in the scriptures. Nowhere is this true of His Shekinah (aka:spirit)!
Might this just be because the spirit of God is not a person at all?

. . .and that verse so many use as 'proof?' of trinity, Matthew 28.19, why do all NT Biblical accounts that reveal the name(s) used of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in baptism only use the name of Jesus???
(are we to be baptised into Christ or Anti

I've felt the term "persons" could have been improved on, but nevertheless, the Three are One.
Granted, He is more One than most of us necessarily see - but just seeing The "GOD" of the Old Testament should display how "One" He is.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when 'He', the Spirit of truth, is come, 'He' will guide you into all truth: for 'He' shall not speak of 'Himself'; but whatsoever 'He' shall hear, that shall 'He' speak: and 'He' will shew you things to come.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Is Jesus full of Himself or the Holy Ghost?

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we have physical Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father speaking from Heaven that He is pleased with His Son.

Or was Jesus doing all of this?

Phanetheus is not pushing the 'Jesus Only' / Oneness doctrine but a 'Two-Only' / Twoness belief.

Quoting him from the other thread he linked to -
""Although the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, they are exactly the same as one another.""

That's not a "Jesus Only" statement.

Phanetheus' problem is with The Holy Spirit making GOD "Three in One" and not just the Two that he sees.

The verse John 16:13 that I posted Phanetheus calls The Holy Spirit "He" as does the verse that follows - as it continues on - Joh 16:14 He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Yes, God really is three persons.

This particular two person view is the Macedonian heresy.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/354332/Macedonianism

OJ

Still beating this dead horse, eh Gregg?

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
Psalm 42.1

This was typed on the fly, so please:
excuse errors,
let me know if there is something wrong with this
or
something is not explained comprehensively enough to understand.
(Lord willing, i'll have time to read through it later.

This come from a broken one,
hart to heart:

H onest
O pen
T ransparent

Jesus asked, then stated,
"...Will God not at all execute avenging of His own chosen: those crying out to Him day and night, though He endures patiently over-and-among them? I put foreward to you that He will in the backdraft, execute vengeance with mighty speed; yet at the Son of Man's arrival, will He find faithfulness on earth?"
(long ago transliterated from Luke 18.7-8)

Am i becoming more persistently faithful in all truth or am i leaning on a man's understanding, be it myself or another?
Are you?

Though at this current point in time, this issue of the Holy Spirit remains not completely settled even in my own mind, realize that my intention is not and never has been to '?PRIVILY?' bring false things foreward FOR ALL TO VIEW . Instead, this issue has been posted here so that (hopefully) those who know better than i (or at least will search the scriptures prayerfully, will assist providing Biblical guidance proving what is good and acceptable for use according to the scriptures. . .
(not some notion invented and traditionalized by man)
. . .and any idea clearly departing from what God's Word says will be left on the doormat before entering discussion on this thread.

It was a wish . . . just a desire that flies in the face of human tendency toward knee jerk reactions. It's never has been expected, yet this hope persists.

i am not trying to push, or force, or even cajole any view on anybody. Instead, this is a reminder to return to the old bright and glittering path of the apostles, prophets, teachers and believer's, an immense cloud of witnesses, who live out the faith once and for all delivered.

Haven't you ever asked yourself why a huge majority of those who say they are following Jesus live lives defeated and beaten down by their own flesh looking for some type of sympathetic interaction with the world, the devil's playground?

This is a clarion call, for a return to prayerfulness, searching and meditation with scripture, coming to the way Jesus and the apostles lived and taught. These are our example of the doctrine of Christ. Only wicked iniquitous idolatrous evil can be found in human tradition, be that societal or in any community living out a world-view that does not begin and end with Christ Jesus as God has revealed in His Prophet, Priest, and King through Bible text.

Ya know, i have known--myself once being one of these--many who have become extremely well versed as to what is thought the Bible really does or doesn't say, who have not really come to be known and know God fully without breaking down, bending the knees, and bowing, praising Him who dwells in light unapproachable and lives to reign evermore.

Have you ever asked yourself how much of what you say you believe is just something you merely affirm in your mind?
Have you ever asked yourself of what you believe is not even found in God's Word?
Have you observed what of your own habits formed are following mere traditions of men invented after those of the first primitive church centuries before already slept in their graves?

i have; and then asked God to search me completely and judge me (in my hope) according to His righteous loving kindness. . .
. . .and still finding out just how stiffnecked i can become even now, just like a spoiled rotten little brat, He surely and swifly in all faithfulness puts me in my place. As well, let the righteous smite me, and i shall be grateful for the kindness.

Praise our Father God whose hand is seen always working towards my conforming into the image of His only begotten Son in whom He is more than completely satisfied!

Are you, or have you been forced into a hedged in place where the only option was to do as God made me see i must do or die?

Here!
Just keep on pray this from one of Jeremiah's prayer in the Bible and see if God will not begin working on you like never before:
" O LORD, I know that the way of man is not
in himself:
it is not in man that walketh
to direct his steps.
O LORD, correct me,
but with judgment;
not in thine anger,
lest thou bring me to nothing.

He will wound you,
but bind you up. . .
. . .then better than heal you.
Your pride will be turned to shame
and humility resulting from Him
will provide you Shalom-shalom.

i am better than no other man, and probably worse than most.

We all who follow Jesus are all of the same stock:
in our flesh Adam
and in our soul Christ.
We are ever learning to overcome by
carrying our cross following Jesus
in every step we take.

Between starting the day prayerfully in the scriptures with praise and repeatedly returning to the Bible, to a major extent in everything done while working in this earth's 'borderland', much of the time, whatever is done, is spent seeking to know God that much more. Often during time spent in this borderland, portions or even whole truths from the threshold of scripture open and are becoming to light. Mostly it is just part of one or two truths about God here and there that flash forth then fade. Until He calls me away from this borderland's daily grind just to be alone and still with Him some more, or an opportunity is squeezed in for a return to the scriptures again checking the things that are just hunches from guesswork, i often feel so much like a fish without water to swim in. i flail and flop around too saints. Yet today, much of what was once bits and pieces is now part of a comprehensive whole in relating to and communing with God.

Still, it is far from me to think that things shown are some private personal revelation. I will not hold the truth in unrighteousness. Freely have i recieved so freely it is given.

What is known, from the reading several different historical sources that what is now known about 'christianities' development through time many times has conflicted with "It is written."
Still, as my interaction here on SI has many times proven, i do not know all the answers and have in spirit and truth gladly recieved correction from other follower's of Jesus here--or wherever i end up doing whatever IRL (from whomever)).

It's known that clearly it takes the work of God's Holy Spirit to convince, convict, and convert us into the image of Christ Jesus through revelation of God's Word to us, Christ in us, the hope of glory. No amount of showing any blind person anything from scriptures will make seen anything without the Spirit of the Lord's work that life.
( i clearly understand that we all have once walked in darkness completely blind, yet by His Spirit, the bright and Morning Star's dawning grows to the brightness of noonday in we who are children of the daylight.)

i am not trying to be different--(just like everyone else?). . .
still, the fact remains:
the Bible clearly shows time and again that
the majority whip is not His desired best:
--the worldwide flood,
--the Tower of Babel,
--Joseph's brothers voting to kill him,
--the golden calf,
--all the murmuring and complaining in the wilderness,
--the children of Israel wanting a king rather than the prophet Samuel,
--account after account of prophet persecuted, afflicted and/or killed,
--the orthodox of Jesus day--(who were much more orthodox than the post-modern neo-orthodoxy of today that calls itself orthodox,)--for the most part rejected Jesus, and likewise, Jesus rejected those who could not hear, or would not look further than in front of their faces about what he was really saying.

In Matthew 7,
when Jesus spoke of those who are false and true to God as
those who will be told to leave his presence and
will not enter the kingdom of heaven because
they do not do the Father's will
--by reason of--
breaking what's instructed in Torah, then
reveals Himself in the parable of
those who either built on the sand or
the solid (bed)rock,
he is speaking only to and about those following him.

WE ALL MUST LOOK AT OURSELVES IN RELATION TO THESE TRUTHS, NOTE WHERE WE STAND, AND MAKE SURE THAT WHAT WE BELIEVE AND DO IS ALL ACCORDING TO GOD's REVEALED WAY
or lose our own souls and never experience eternal life through persisting growth into Jesus, 'knowing' both the Father and the Son.

(There could be more instances cited from both the Old and New Testament if this were the issue of importance on this thread.)

It is so greivous to see unfounded accusations unfold. Does naming something, giving it a label enable one to reach into the heart of the matter?

This afternoon i cried out to God in tears. So many so quick to become accusers (of their very own) brother in Christ and so quickly condemn without showing any Biblical foundation as a basis to support such accusations.

Worse, aside from Christinyou and Jesus-is-GOD, it appears that the majority of respondents are not writing to strengthen our unity in Christ, but rather divide. As well, who but these two have bothered to research what has led to this thread--->see the links provided in the 1st post on this page)?

It doesn't take much at all to start accusing another. Just find something you don't like, brood on it until you get mad, then speak your mind
(or should it be said,". . .speak from the part of the mind not yet consumed in anger's bitterness?")

i don't go around calling anybody a heretic or anything such thing just because it seems to be by my own sense of reasoning or feelings!

(You who think you are so spot-on in the way you are acting would do very poorly in the work of reconciling to Christ those of the various cults and occult factions.)

We given the imperative command to be prepared to give an answer to every person regarding this hope in us.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO THE PERSON IS, WHAT OR WHO THEY ARE REPRESENTING, OR EVEN WHAT THEY BELIEVE :
If they still walk the earth there is hope for them as God's mercy still remains with them.
IF WE ARE ONLY NAME-CALLING THEN BRAVELY RUNNING AWAY,
WE SHOULD LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND ASK OURSELF:
AM I FOLLOWING JESUS IN HIS COMMAND
TO FULFILL HIS GREAT COMMISSION
OF RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF?

If i am beating a dead horse, how?
Either this is part of the doctrine of Christ
or
it is something other than this, and is not His teaching and should nevermore be discussed.
(If anything that is taught denies the supremacy and Lordship of our master, Jesus Christ, it is from a lying spirit and not of God at all.)
On this note,
please explain how the spirit of Christ is anything other than His spirit?
How is the spirit of the Lord anything other than the Lord's spirit?

Now as time passes, more and more scriptures become more congruent fitting together that much better in the understanding of scripture God has provided.
Still, i have questions.

Below are provided the initial set of verses
that were brought to rememberance
while meditating on John 14.1 through 16.16:

I.
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Corinthians 3.14-18

II.
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but. . .

. . .holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
II Peter 1.16-21

III. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for. . .

. . .the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 19.9-10
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Jesus-is God,

Thank you for your input.

Regarding the use of the pronoun 'he':
In english, when translating from other languages, (be they romantic, germanic, ancient, etc.,) a definite article proceeds the word in either masculine, feminine or neuter tense. Though english language does not have the various gender/tenses of the word "the" used in these other languages, it often substitutes a pronoun.

In ancient Greek, the word 'spirit' more often than not in classical Koine texts means either breath or wind, and less often is the word 'spirit' translated from this Greek word. The definite article for this word is masculine.

If it is a female ghost or feminine spirit, it's article is he/the.
If that word is translated to be breath, it is still found with the article he/the.
He/the is also the article for breath and wind.

Masculine, feminine, or neuter articles cannot be used to determine actual gender in the majority of cases as most all of these nouns can be recognized as a thing/it in english.

We know that this is not a fast and hard rule regarding the spirit being a 'he' (even in the KJV Bible); because (in accord with greek linguistics and thought) the Holy Spirit is usually translated as "it(self)" in Romans 8.16, and not "himself."

This may be my own failing, but personally, i have alot of trouble thinking of anything that is an 'it' to be a 'self' as well. Further, knowing the Lord is a man, even so i refer to His Holy Spirit as He.

(Personal belief regarding this one issue is that we humans tend to better understand God through anthropomorphizing Him, though in His Holy Goodness and Glory, he is so far beyond our petty knowledge of how we understand Him. Being not only the one who created both male/female and genderless neutrality, he contains all these thing within himself, is not any of these things, and reigns infinitely above and beyond our human ideosynchratic way of giving any physical characteristics to God, just to better comprehend Him. . .
". . .but what about Jesus? Jesus is God!"
eKeep in remembrance, in and through Jesus Christ, God emptied Himself of all that He is, yet remained Himself (John 3.13; Phillipians 2.6-7).

This is the mystery of godliness:
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory. "
I Timothy 3.16

This whole growing Biblical doctrine of Christ has nothing to do with Macedonianism. i have never believed that the Holy Spirit was created at all, much less subordinate to either the Son or the Father. Rather, God's spirit is what God is, as He always is, has been, and ever will be.

Further, from what has been seen occur in the current so called orthodoxy, there is very little stock put in it, and this issue certainly does not advocate any ecumenical council whatsoever.

What gives a mere man the right to call God's spirit
--known as: the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, this spirit being the Lord--
a person separate and distinct yet united as one with our Father and Brother. . .

. . .when the spirit of God identified by all the various titles in Ya's sacred writ, from Genesis to Revelation, all point to the fact that this (holy) spirit of God manifests in many various ways as the spirit OF the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Form is not the issue and neither is whether we have his name right. What is most important is where is the core of our affections

Hi Brother, I'm just now finding your post. I read most of it and will read the rest. Been a busy day.

Two verses come to mind -

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is **Christ in you**, the hope of glory:

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God,
**God dwelleth in him, and he in God.**

Who dwells 'in' us in these two verses? - "He".

Now going back to John 16 -
Joh 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I do understand your point with the pronouns but from those other two verses above - there's no differentiating between GOD/Christ/The Spirit. Through-out the whole of the Word, these three are used interchangably - more than we sometimes notice and I'd love to discuss that point.
That's where those who try to explain "the trinity" get tongue tied. These three Are ONE.

I don't want to post on the fly neither, because this is my favorite topic of all - "Who GOD is" ... so I probably won't get it all out in one post - but I would like to talk what's on my heart about HIM. :)

I always seem to ask folks - "Who walked and talked in the Garden with Adam? and where was "Jesus" at that moment?

For now, I need to get off the computer for a short while, but would love to hear some thoughts on this I've posted so far.

Wish we weren't always fighting against "time" and - other things that need doing.

Appreciated your post. We need to talk - Amen!

Hi again Brother. I'm sure doing this piece meal, but it's helping me to do it this way. I'll wait for your replies on both of these, if you do find something in my understanding worth replying to.

More about GOD - in the creation -

Psa 33:6 "By the word" of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them "by the breath" [ruach] of his mouth.

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy "spirit" [ruach], they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for He 'commanded', and they were created.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens 'alone'; that spreadeth abroad the earth 'by myself'

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of "thine hands": they shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.

GOD uses all terms for Himself as to how all things were created ... by His Spirit, by His Hands, by His Word and then we read in the N.T. it is by 'Jesus' - so by His Spirit, by His Hands, by His Word [Jesus] are the three in One GOD - Elohim [plural]. "- - begining GOD created the heaven and the earth."
The CO-'Equality' of the Three in ONE.

As far as why I have problems with using the term "persons", I'll have to do another one for that, but if I don't see three "persons" in the Garden and don't see three persons after the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven after the millenial reign - I can't justify using the term "persons" - though I do believe that GOD is as Tripartite as we are body, soul and spirit - but I don't like when folks pigeon hole people's beliefs before they get the chance to fully explain - as in yelling 'Modalism' or such.

Thanks!
Will post again.

Well Brother Gregg, I don't believe that what you believe (so far) is a "salvation issue" and never did. I even believe that there are those in the Jesus Only crowd that are saved.
Understanding the Triunity of GOD is very mind boggling and we either take our view from the traditional writings of 'wherever' or we begin a life-long search on our own of just the Scriptures, but that still leaves many of us thinking differently on His Nature - no question about it.
I forget where I posted a prayer by some famous named man who wanted badly to understand the Triune Nature of GOD. I believe he was one of our famous hymn writers and his prayer was long and heart wrenching to me because I felt I had gone through every bit of it as well. Wish I could remember where that prayer is and if it was by Watts or who.

Anyhow - I wanted to leave a quote from a commentary that's in e-sword, though I don't particularly agree with the present tense 'distinction' that this commentator makes by his words, I do see an end of the "distinction" coming.

Here it is ...

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 15:28 -
""The Son also himself be subject" - When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any 'distinct' dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the one infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal."

and when do we see this happening ...

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

I've expressed my beliefs here before about when The Word of GOD became the Son of GOD and few agree because it's not in the writings of the Reformation era, but I haven't been burnt at the stake as yet.

I do stand on the Shema and will always see GOD as One GOD.

The only group that I truly have problems with are those who do not believe in the Deity of Christ.

I've read your post and coincidently - actually did a search to find that verse Ps 42:1 last night because that's how I was feeling and praying.

He'll be back soon enough. No more divisions and no more disunity then.
In the meantime - I enjoy rejoicing at truth and contending for the faith once delivered.

It doesn't matter if we have this down perfectly because neither do most commentators that everyone reads.

Praying for Blessings from Him to all of us poor humans this weekend, with His Love & Shalom for all - Amen.

Sis Lysa, I almost wrote that "I even believe that there are those in the Trinitarian crowd that are saved too." :)

It's been a long and emotional day, so now that I'm wasted, I can get silly. I know for certain that 'you' wouldn't mind if I do. A merry heart does good like a medicine: but a broken spirit dries the bones. I don't need to dry up any more than I already am and btw, I have unquenchable sense of humor as well ... but don't get me going too much - they'll accuse me of being in the holy laughter crowd or accuse me of having a spirit of levity.
I do. :D
A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Don't need any more broken parts neither.

GOD Bless you!!

Excellent verse for this particular topic, Chris.

Came back on because I found the prayer by Isaac Watts. Composer of 600 hymns, such as, "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross".

His prayer -

A Solemn Address to the Deity by Isaac Watts

1 Righteous art thou, O Lord, when I plead with thee concerning thy judgments. Permit me, O my God and Father, to plead with thee concerning the revelations of thy nature and thy grace, which are made in thy Gospel : And let me do it with all that humble reverence, and that holy awe of thy majesty, which becomes a creature in the presence of God.
2 Hast thou not, O Lord God almighty, hast thou not transacted thy Divine and important affairs among men by thy Son Jesus Christ, and by thy Holy Spirit? and hast thou not ordained that men should transact their highest and most momentous concerns with thee, by the Son and by thy Spirit? Hast thou not, by the mouth of thy Son Jesus, required all that profess his religion to be washed with water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? Is it not my duty then, to inquire, who or what are these sacred names, and what they signify? Must I not know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ thy Son, whom thou hast sent, that I may fulfill all my respective duties toward thyself and thy Son, in hope of eternal life? Hath not thy Son himself appealed to thee in his last prayer, that eternal life depends upon this knowledge? And since thou hast made so much use of thy Holy Spirit in our religion, must I not have some knowledge of this thy Spirit also, that I may pay thee all these honors thou requirest from this Divine revelation?
3 Hast thou not ascribed Divine names, and titles, and characters to thy Son and thy Holy Spirit, in thy work, as well as assumed them to thyself? And hast thou not appointed to them such glorious offices as cannot be executed without something of Divinity or true Godhead in them? And yet art not thou, and thou alone, the true God? How shall a poor weak creature be able to adjust and reconcile these clashing ideas, or to understand this mystery? Or must I believe and act blindfold, without understanding?
4 Holy Father, thou knowest how firmly I believe, with all my soul, whatsoever thou hast plainly written and revealed in thy word. I believe thee to be the only true God, the supreme of beings, self sufficient for thine own existence, and for all thy infinite affairs and transactions among thy creatures. I believe thy Son Jesus Christ to be all-sufficient for the glorious work of mediation between God and man, to which thou hast appointed him. I believe he is a man, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. I believe he is one with God ; he is God manifest in the flesh ; and that the man Jesus is so closely and inseparably united with the true and eternal Godhead, as to become one Person, even as a human soul and body make one man. I believe that this illustrious Person is hereby possessed of Divine dignity sufficient to make full atonement for the sins of men by his sufferings and death, even though sin be accounted an infinite evil; and that he hath all-sufficient power to raise himself from the dead, to ascend to heaven, and fulfill the blessed works for which thou has exalted him, and to govern and judge the world in thine own appointed time.
5 I believe also thy blessed Spirit hath almighty power and influence to do all thy will, to instruct men effectually in Divine truths, to change the hearts of fallen mankind from sin to holiness, to carry on thy work of illumination, sanctification, and consolation on the hearts of all thy children, and to bring them safe to the heavenly world. I yield myself up joyfully and thankfully to this method of thy salvation, as it is revealed in thy Gospel. But I acknowledge my darkness still. I want to have this wonderful doctrine of the all-sufficiency of thy Son and thy Spirit, for these Divine works, made a little plainer. May not thy humble creature be permitted to know what share they can have in thy Deity? Is it a vain, sinful curiosity to desire to have this article in such a light, as may not diminish the eternal glory of the unity of the true God, nor of the supremacy of Thee, the Father of all?
6 Hadst thou informed me, gracious Father, in any place of thy word, that this Divine doctrine is not to be understood by men, and yet they were required to believe it, I would have subdued all my curiosity to faith, and submitted my wandering and doubtful imaginations, as far as it was possible, to the holy and wise determinations of thy word. But I cannot find thou hast anywhere forbid me to understand it, or to make these inquiries. My conscience is the best natural light thou hast put within me, and since thou hast given me the Scriptures, my own conscience bids me search the Scriptures, to find out truth and eternal life. It bids me try all things, and hold fast that which is good. And thy own word, by the same expressions, encourages this holy practice. I have, therefore, been long searching into this Divine doctrine, that I may pay thee due honor with understanding. Surely I ought to know the God whom I worship, whether he be one pure and simple being, or whether thou art a three-fold Deity, consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
7 Dear and blessed God! hadst thou been pleased, in any one plain Scripture, to have informed me which of the different opinions about the Holy Trinity, among the contending parties of Christians, had been t;rue, thou knowest with how much zeal, satisfaction, and joy my unbiased heart would have opened itself to receive and embrace the Divine discovery. Hadst thou told me plainly, in any single text, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three real distinct Persons in thy Divine nature, I had never suffered myself to be bewildered in so many doubts, nor embarrassed with so many strong fears of assenting to the mere inventions of men, instead of Divine doctrine; but I should have humbly and immediately accepted thy words, so far as it was possible for me to understand them, as the only rule of my faith. Or hadst thou been pleased to express and include this proposition in the several scattered parts of thy book, from whence my reason and conscience might with ease find out and with certainty infer this doctrine, I should have joyfully employed all my reasoning powers, with their utmost skill and activity, to have found out this inference, and ingrafted it into my soul.
8 Thou hast taught me, Holy Father, by thy prophets, that the way of holiness in the times of the Gospel, or under the kingdom of the Messiah, shall be a highway, a plain and easy path; so that the wayfaring man, or the stranger, 'though a fool, shall not err therein.' And thou hast called the poor and the ignorant, the mean and the foolish things of this world, to the knowledge of thyself and thy Son, and taught them to receive and partake of the salvation which thou hast provided. But how can such weak creatures ever take in so strange, so difficult, and so abstruse a doctrine as this, in the explication and defense whereof multitudes of men, even men of learning and piety, have lost themselves in infinite subtleties and dispute, and endless mazes of darkness? And can this strange and perplexing notion of three real Persons going to make one true God, be so necessary and so important a part of that Christian doctrine, which, in the Old Testament and the New, is represented as so plain and so easy, even to the meanest understandings?
9 O thou Searcher of hearts, who knowest all things, I appeal to thee concerning the sincerity of my inquiries into these discoveries of thy word. Thou knowest me, thou hast seen me, and hast tried my heart toward thee : If there be any lurking hypocrisy in my heart, any secret bias toward anything but truth, uncover it, O Father of lights, and banish it from my soul forever. If thine eye discovers the least spark of any criminal prejudice in any corner of my soul, extinguish it utterly, that I may not be led astray from the truth, in matters of such importance, by the least glance of error or mistake.
10 Thou art witness, O my God, with what constancy and care I have read and searched thy holy word, how early and late, by night and by day, I have been making these inquiries; how frequently I have been seeking thee on my bended knees, and directing my humble address to thee, to enlighten my darkness, and to show me the meaning of thy word, that I may learn what I must believe, and what I must practice with regard to this doctrine, in order to please thee, and obtain eternal life.
11 Great God, who seest all things! thou hast beheld what busy temptations have been often fluttering about my heart, to call it off from these laborious and difficult inquiries, and to give up thy word and thy Gospel as an unintelligible book, and betake myself to the light of nature and reason; but thou hast been pleased by thy Divine Power to scatter these temptations, and fix my heart and hope again upon that Savior and that eternal life which thou hast revealed in thy word, and proposed therein to our knowledge and our acceptance. Blessed be the name of my God, that has not suffered me to abandon the Gospel of his Son Jesus! And blessed be that Holy Spirit that has kept me attentive to the truth delivered in the Gospel, and inclined me to wait longer in my search of these Divine truths, under the hope of thy gracious illumination!
12 I humbly call thee to witness, O my God, what a holy jealousy I ever wear about my heart, lest I should do the slightest dishonor to thy supreme Majesty, in any of my inquiries or determinations. Thou seest what a religious fear, and what a tender solicitude I maintain on my soul, lest I should think or speak anything to diminish the grandeurs and honors of thy Son Jesus, my dear Mediator, to whom I owe my everlasting hopes. Thou knowest how much afraid I am of speaking one word, which may be construed into a neglect of thy blessed Spirit, from whom I hope I am daily receiving happy influences of light and strength. Guard all the motions of my mind, O Almighty God, against everything that borders upon these dangers. Forbid my thoughts to indulge and forbid my pen to write one word, that should sink those grand ideas which belong to thyself, or thy Son, or thy Spirit. Forbid it, O my God, that I should ever be so happy as to unglorify my Father, my Savior, or my Sanctifier, in any of my sentiments or expressions concerning them.
13 Blessed and faithful God, hast thou not promised that the meek thou wilt guide in judgment, the meek thou wilt teach thy way? Hast thou not told us by Isaiah thy prophet, that thou wilt bring the blind by a way which they knew not, and wilt lead them in paths which they have not known? Hast thou not informed us by thy prophet Hosea, that if we follow on to know the Lord, then we shall know him? Hath not thy Son, our Savior, assured us, that our heavenly Father will give his Holy Spirit to them who ask him? And is he not appointed to guide us into all truth? Have I not sought the gracious guidance of thy good Spirit continually? Am I not truly sensible of my own darkness and weakness, my dangerous prejudices on every side, and my utter insufficiency for my own conduct? Wilt thou leave such a poor creature bewildered among a thousand perplexities, which are raised by the various opinions and contrivances of men to explain thy Divine truth?
14 Help me, heavenly Father, for I am quite tired and weary of these human explainings, so various and uncertain. When wilt thou explain it to me thyself, O my God, by the secret and certain dictates of thy Spirit according to the intimations of thy word? Nor let any pride of reason, nor any affectation of novelty, nor any criminal bias whatsoever, turn my heart aside from hearkening to these Divine dictates of thy word and thy Spirit. Suffer not any of my native corruptions, nor the vanity of my imagination, to cast a mist over my eyes, while I am searching after the knowledge of thy mind and will, for my eternal salvation.
15 I entreat, O most merciful Father, that thou wilt not suffer the remnant of my short life to be wasted in such endless wanderings, in quest of thee and thy Son Jesus, as a great part of my past days have been; but let my sincere endeavors to know thee, in all the ways whereby thou hast discovered thyself in thy word, be crowned with such abundant success, that my soul being established in every needful truth by thy Holy Spirit, I may spend my remaining life according to the rules of thy Gospel, and may, with all the holy and happy creations, ascribe glory and honor, wisdom and power to Thee, who sittest upon the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.

to ccchhhrrriiisss and twayneb,

Personally, the validity of Mt 28:19 and I Jn 5:7 seems suspect to tampering,
being added to the text recieved--Textus Receptus--
by the Anglican Church--who translated the KJV--
from the Roman Catholic Church's mss.
prior to the advent of Angicanism.

These verses are not found in older more reliable N.T. Koine' manuscripts.

ccchhhrrriiisss:

If you are supposed to baptise in the name of the Holy Spirit (or the Father ftm),
why is it that New Testament accounts that do reveal details
only use the name of Jesus and not that 'formula'?

This verse (or idea) is not found in any other scriptures, but it is contradicted and one should know that scripture confirms itself.

Several sources have confirmed that it was added to, yet who but God really knows not being present when it was written.

If you will, it's asked that you will show some other verses that you see to agree with even the concept, (aside from the one twayneb has provided).

twayneb:
i have been spending many months going through the books of John daily: reading, studying, memorizing, meditating. Still, when first beginning this little project
--that has blown all out of proportion except for the fact that knowing God's revelation of Himself is key to all else God is, does and says--
,there were certain portions that just not seem to fit. Being uneasy inside about these, much time was spent researching the specifics behind these verses and portions of scripture.

The verse you quote nowhere else fits into any of what John says, with the possible exception of Revelation, though these few verses do not state any such thing specifically.

"IN THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES LET ALL THINGS BE ESTABLISHED."

There is not sufficient support Biblically nor historically to establish any doctrine based on these two verses.

Have you two listened to the sermon and read the threads that the links provided in the first post lead to?

Have you read through the first and second posts from here on this thread (p1 and p2)?

Have you looked at "The New Catholic Theological Dictionary" under "TRINITY"--(dogma of)?

Have you looked at the changes made to "the faith once and for all delivered" by reading through the various ecumenical/catholic councils of the 4th century?

Where in the Bible do you guys see that the Holy Spirit:
--does not come to us from Christ Jesus
--is not Jesus Christ the Lord (in spirit)
--is a person other than Christ Jesus
--is another person, and not the Father and the Son
(the Spirit of these two united in presence, purpose and power (i.e. 'name) manifested to us, in us, through us as we walk in the Spirit--of our Lord Jesus Christ , and everywhere present?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone who has written so far (nobody excluded).

i have not been mad about this at all . . .only grieved and broken inside. . .not because of anything here has written or said mind you.

The more truly we understand God's person in His character and whatever aspect of his person or nature, the closer we come to apprehending Him rationally.

God knows me and i know him by many experiences
that have probably made me crazier than most,
(others say i am radical and a God fearer and insane sometimes)
and except for a recent bout of anger with Him
(stupid huhn?)
that could have resulted in death
(in which i was pleading and acting towards that request)
. . .He provided what i needed to set me back on the straight and narrow, and not what i wanted.

God is not safe,
But He is kind and merciful:
glorious in His goodness.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Lysa and Jesus-is-God,

Your posts are encouraging to me.

Jesus is God, thank you for that awesome link, and both of you will be written, heart to heart.

JiG,
so much to take in so the respose on this thread remains to be posted on this thread; but that was Jesus in the Garden even as He was covenant establisher/Law giver to Moshe and Israel's children, and every angel of the LORD. . .and so much more.

-----------------------------------------------------------

God Bless you all brothers and sisters!

Don't know when i'll get to write ya'll again again,maybe tomorrow, maybe not.
but would rather see all of you soon in the clouds of glory with Faithful and True.

Mara Natha!

i asked God about it
because Renouncer advised me to spend time meditating 2Tim,
so that is where and what will be central (before most other things normally pursued) for the time being.

Shabbat Shalom,
gregg

I feel the need to apologise for getting silly earlier on this thread. I wanted to post Isaac Watts prayer because the Triunity of GOD is so difficult for us humans with our tiny minds to understand, that even a great Pastor and hymn writer like Watts struggled with that understanding.
I also posted that even those in the Jesus-Only camp could be saved because of the confusion of it all, but what determines "Salvation" in a person should have been defined at that time. I don't believe that we can tell if someone is saved just because they speak in tongues [or by Any 'signs & wonders', in and by themselves], and I had given an example here, not too long ago, of someone who "prayed in tongues" in front of 6 adults, but all the adults, but not the two young teen girls, heard the same curse words - the two young teens heard just the 'tongues'. GOD's protection over the young in Christ. HE is very protective over His young ones - His lambs!
Also, there are those who are 'speaking in tongues' to Mary and there are homosexual groups that 'speak in tongues' and I imagine we've all seen endless counterfeits out there by now.

I'm sorry for not being clearer, but on a happy note, "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross" is one of my top 5 favorite hymns. Incredible words.

Praying.
Phil 3:10-16

Wanted to get back here before now but - I'm getting as pokey as my dial-up.

Appreciated this part Chris - "I wanted to know the Lord...and I knew that it would come from knowing His Word. One thing that was unique was that I was willing to dismiss EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught about the Lord."

Amen! I believe that's also what John 16:13 is about besides knowing how to cross-reference and all. Very good.

What developed in my search was sort of a combination of reflecting on how when a person is Born-again, the Holy Spirit enters the spirit of the person. This part I wanted also to discuss with Phanetheus.
Reflecting on how we're 'suppose' to operate as GOD indwelled people - consisting of body, soul and spirit - my thoughts went to how that when the Holy Spirit enters our spirit - the next thing that we experience is that the Spirit is able to speak to us - into our souls and then the soul can control the body. That the souls, having a freewill, determines how much in submission or dependence it will have upon the Spirit within or will it continue to act autonomously.
The ideal would be the soul under complete dependence on the leading of the Spirit within and then the body doing whatever the enlightened soul has heard. That would be an example of how Jesus walked while on earth. The three in unity with GOD as the Head. So then I remembered, "Let us make man in Our Image" and that thought came that maybe this is this tripartite nature of man - as GOD is tripartite, because if GOD's ideal design was for man to be 'like' Him, and Christ was as we are To be - then it made sense to me that the properly GOD ordained function of the triune nature of man represents the Triunity of GOD - "created in His Image".

Of course the unsaved are not conformed to His Image but nonetheless, created in His Image with the potential to be formed into the Image of The Son.
Some occultists use their spirits in the wrong way - like astral projection and remote viewing and the such from Satan and the ability to go into those types of spiritism have crept into the Church, but to stay on topic - I felt more understanding of His Triune Nature when I saw ours and how Jesus was the Ideal man as our example. He said that His Words and acts were not His Own but the Fathers and He definitely walked in the Spirit of GOD. Then we're told to do the same as He did - or 'walk' as He did - so it seemed to come together better in my mind with this understanding.
If I took away from His Triune Nature - that I was taking away from what He created us to be. Led by His Spirit, with our wills/soul under submission to His Spirit and the body under submission to the submitted soul and it just made sense to me that way to see Jesus as our example of what a tripartite human is in GOD's perfect functioning condition, tripartite with the Spirit being depended on by the soul/will and the body obeying that spirit led man - so that Jesus represented "In Our Image" as GOD had intended.

Make sense to you Brothers?

Bless you much Brother Philip. I truly understand the exuberance with which you share His Word now. As they say, "You get on a roll" and it's hard to contain it. It's like His Word/Truth is bursting to get out and almost can't be contained. The JOY over-floods you and you release it and you truly don't feel it's self-effort, nor do you feel that self-effort can contain it inside you. It 'has to' be released when it builds up like this. I can only compare it to when Mary burst out before Elisabeth.... "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour............"

You can feel that these words just Burst out of her as Christ was then in her ... the Love of GOD expressed with such unbelievable joy!

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
Eph 4:23,24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Your post is beautiful, Brother. Thank you from my heart.

Brother Philip, YOU have been praying for me and have been so very patient with me over a span of literally Years.

My humble appreciate and tearful gratitude.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers [noun masculine], to feed the Church of GOD, which He hath purchased with His Own blood.

My prayers are with you with my unexpressable thanks for your unbelievable patience.

Amen, and Amen! I still have much to learn, but TRUST HIM to take me there as/when He sees fit.
The LORD Bless you!

No time for blathering chit chat
or
intellectual slobber right now.

Although the end comments reflect my own biase, please don't go getting in as dander because of what is stated.
Just think about what you think the Holy Ghost is compared to the revelation of scripture.

chris,
it's thought that you really misunderstood me reading your second responses, though this is probably due to me misunderstanding you. Anyway, there is little time to type right now, and this Schabbat has left me with this break of mere minutes as my family is preparing to go to Bible Study with kin on the other side of town.

This was written before falling asleep last night.

It gets to the core of my reasonings and perspective.

I am just asking all you guys to look and tell me, with scriptural proof where this is wrong. . .PLEASE???

You know my personal view has changed progressively through the years in respect to the Holy Ghost, matching experience with scripture. i really do not like hollow arguements just to prove a point that really doesn't change anybody made adversary.

Travis you are so right: rabbiot trails.

Phillip, you have made me think about things that have never really been bothered with, and i am still working through these Q's from the Bible.

Ginny, i'm gonna have to explain things in terms of my own testimony for anybody to really understand what the problem is.

PAX,

gregg

ps: i have copied, but have not yet read any posts since last Saturday

SACRED ICONOCLASM

Using scripture to disprove false notions about the Holy Ghost:
Shattering images religious men have created for God to live in

Thus saith the LORD,
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
~ISAIAH 66.1-5

GOD
HATH MADE that same
JESUS , whom ye have
CRUCIFIED ,
BOTH LORD
AND CHRIST. For the law of
THE SPIRIT of life
IN CHRIST
JESUS
HATH MADE me free from the law of sin and death.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
THE SPIRIT OF GOD
DWELL IN YOU: Now if any man have not
THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he
IS none of His. And if
CHRIST be
IN YOU , the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit
is life
BECAUSE
OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Of which salvation the
PROPHETS have enquired and searched diligently, who
PROPHECIED
OF THE POWER
THAT SHOULD COME
UNTO YOU
--THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY--
Searching what, or what manner of time
THE SPIRIT
OF CHRIST which was
IN THEM did signify, when it
TESTIFIED
BEFOREHAND the sufferings of Christ, and
THE GLORY
THAT SHOULD
FOLLOW.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but
UNTO US they did minister
THE THINGS , which
ARE NOW reported
UNTO YOU
BY them that have preached
THE GOSPEL unto you
WITH THE
HOLY GHOST
SENT DOWN
FROM HEAVEN;
which things the angels desire to look into. And
I BEHELD , and, lo,
IN the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in
THE midst of the elders, stood a
LAMB as it had been slain,
HAVING SEVEN HORNS
AND SEVEN EYES, which are
THE SEVEN
SPIRITS OF GOD
SENT FORTH
INTO
ALL THE EARTH. Now
THE LORD
IS THAT SPIRIT: and where
THE SPIRIT
OF THE LORD is, there is liberty.
But
WE ALL , with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
ARE CHANGED
INTO THE SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, even as
BY
THE SPIRIT
OF
THE LORD
WHO verily
WAS FOREORDAINED
BEFORE THE FOUNDATION
OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you,
According
AS HE
HATH CHOSEN
US IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that
we should
BE HOLY
AND
WITHOUT BLAME:
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But
TO US
THERE IS
BUT ONE GOD,
THE FATHER,
OF WHOM
ARE ALL THINGS, and we in him;
AND ONE LORD
JESUS CHRIST,
BY WHOM
ARE ALL THINGS, and we by him. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Verses used follow:
Acts 2.36b(ii. to end of verse) / Romans 8.2, 9-10 / I Peter 1.10 / Revelation 19.10g(ii.-x.) / I Peter 1.11-12 / Revelation 5.6 / II Corinthians 3.17-18 / I Peter 1.20 / Ephesians 1.4 / I Peter 1.13-15 / I Corinthians. 8.5-6/ I John. 1.3, 2.22-24, 4.1 / II Peter. 1.17 / II John. 1.9

REFLECTIONS:

Who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

THIS IS WALKING IN THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST:
By telling others the Holy Spirit is a person other than Christ Jesus, one denies the Son. By telling others that the Holy Spirit does not proceed out from El, one denies the Father.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
II Thessalonians 2.7-12
===============================================================

POSTSCRIPT:

". . .Because
THE
TRINITY
IS such an important part of
!LATER! [yikes!!!]

unintentional dual posting deleted

The grace and peace to all from our King and prince of peace, the Lord Jesus Christ.

WOW,
It's been just over a year since finding this place.
Not by my own plans nor devising,
this place ordained cyber-home
--(til' God by whatever means sends me elsewhere, in cyber-space at least)--
has turned out to be quite the ride:
--the Spirit's leed into/through prayer in ways that vary so much compared to the--american 'christian' cult-ural--norm, be it: HIS intents compared to what i wrongly think or would do naturally, places, times, manners and types of, etc. . .
--time and again seeing how wrong i have been
--Biblical revelations that just keep on popping up ( learning meekness. questioning myself and my own motives, yet pressing Bible issues not surely sound),
--seeing SO MANY varied perspectives,
( from we who FTMP at least claim to believe the same thing)
--the chiding
(often from peeps who think it's their way or the highway)
--learning to reasonably communicate such subjects of passion
(without letting deep seated feelings, reasons, or even personal intentions hamper "bodybuilding", self-control, and straightforeward speech speech
--how we learn to talk together without slamming doors in each others faces
--trusting God to reach out through words read, not to just touch, but to grip and break and change our hearts
--and so much more

So much for the once rough and tumble rock em' sock em' let the bodies hit the floor and the chips fall where they may man's man, gregg.
(Then Travis brought the good ole' JGL word back to mind)--> i'm one of the 'godmen' now, and every single day since i was 14 life got tougher, but major abundance comes with it.

(Oh thank you Lord for a name that is written in your book of life and the seal of your Spirit to evidence faithfulness beyond man in me).

Once it was thought there never could be a gathered group, time, or place in cyberspace that would trigger yours truly to:
be knocking, seeking, finding all the time
and
so pour out this heart to God,
with brothers and sisters who really care, too:
laugh and cry;
sharing the joy in this life's sojourn with so many
or the light we walk into,
coming to know Him more clearly on the way.
Often it feels just as real as IRL
(i'm wondering if this is not due to prayer with this fellowship and taking up others concerns as mine?)
Thank you Yeshua!
Thank you Greg and fellow supporters of His ministry through SI.
Thank you brothers and sisters in His body!
===========================================================
"God is a community."
~King Jimmy

. . .in one spirit. . .
. . .and my brain just exploded.

Ya' know Brother,
Some (who think they know better)
have been heard telling others that expressing emotions in the ways we relate with God and issues relative concerning our outward expressions are of the flesh BAGROFLOL--be it praise through song, worship, prayer, etc , and they choose to shake their heads in disdain, or turn away, and say stuff like, "those people are sensationalists", etc.--

Was Jesus emotional?
......uuuh yeahaaa.....

What kind of a stuffy God do they think He is anyway?
When we try to limit God to our reasoning are we really serving Him with all we've got?

It's often wondered what these half-human advocates thinks Loving God
--(1st) with ALL YOUR HEART, (2nd) with ALL YOUR SOUL and so on--
rilly means.

We look at David, the man after God's own heart
and we see a person who has no regard
and even truly distain those who are reserved in any way
when it comes to God.

Do they know the meaning of the 13 Hebrew words translated as praise:
leaping and laughing and crying and gushing and shouting and jumping and clapping and so on?

Who is really letting the cart drive the horse?

Shouldn't we share in King David's spirit???
Who made our feelings anyway?
Who created in us this ability to share heartfelt affection?
These things make for strong ties and communion with both God and man.
Honestly, i really pray in concern for those who show no first love fruit: our affection and feelings foremost towards God and talking with anyone whoever they are about our Jesus.

Have they ever stopped to add 1+2?

1. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
+
2. "The fruit of righteousness is the tree of life, and he that wins souls is wise."

Fear of the Lord is an emotion
i don't know about anybody else really, but the one thing being born again impressed on me more than all else was becoming part of Jesus and El forever.

*phaney ponders for a very brief moment and suddenly a song of Chris Tomlin's plays out loudly inside him like it were on speakers outside him*

I'm caught in the half-light
I'm caught alone
Waking up to the sunrise
and the radio
Feels like I'm tied up.
What's holdin' me?
Just praying today
will be the day
I go free

CHORUS
and l wanna' live like there's no tomorrow,
i wanna' dance like no one's around
i wanna sing like nobody's listening
'fore I lay my body down
i'm gonna' give like i have plenty
i'm wanna' love like i'm not afraid
I wanna be the man i was meant to be
I wanna be the way i was made.

I'm made in Your likeness:
I'm made with Your hands.
I'm made to discover
Who You are
and who I am. . .
. . .and all I've forgotten,
help me to find
all that you promise:
Let it be in my life

CHORUS
repeat
I wanna be the way I was made
I wanna' be the way i was made
I wanna' be the way i was made

Back to the thing first brought up.

God's been making it clearer and clearer to me that to not allow our feelings to be expressed outwardly to God, whether alone or around others is as shameful as not testifying and showing others how God works in our lives.

It's heart and soul first, not second, and definitely not not at all.
The mind and strength are to follow All your heart and soul, and not vice versa.

Who is really getting the cart before the horse?

Others can keep on living their faith like they're walking backwards down the stairs, but it's a whole lot simpler going foreward (speaking from experience).

i will propose the opposite to be true:
It is not our affections and emotions towards God that are so fleshly.
Rather, it's our mind that can be more fleshly and is directly tied to the flesh.

(if anybody doesn't believe this, just cut off your head and see how your flesh functions.)

BTW, have you listened to the sermon here on renewing the mind by Richard Sipley yet?

Most excellent.
===========================================================
Travis,
Thanks bunches for going back and re-reading.

i don't know how you intended it to come across but your summary speaks volumes.
!!!MARA NATHA!!!
_ 8^) _

My sister Jolene
--(Jim, you may recognize the 4'11" person i am talking about if you spent any time with Len at Last Days)--
told me one time that when we know as we are known, on that day of Bema, we will all realize we were all wrong.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
"
I Cor. 15.50/ John 3.6 / I Corinthians 13.12,

===========================================================

Hi Jim P!
Sincere apologies for not giving you proper recognition when you said hi the first time. i should have and i do apologize Brother. Out of all the text written and read on these Godhead threads, your comments are closest to my personal sentiments . Of these things you have written, your words are the epitome of how i feel about all this, and deserve to be considered by all:
((somewhat) edited and combined as one : then my own end comments from an earlier page (from this thread))

"...in the beginning God...Jesus was the word spoken by the Father ... john 1 and esp heb 1...spoke in times past by the apostles and prophets, has in these last days spoken unto to us by Son...alpha and omega are the alphabeta in greek ... and the Spirit hovered...
i know these things and have been studying for 45 yrs. and know less now than when i was 30. . . when i was 35 i had all this figured out but now i am in my 70s and am overwhelmed by the grandure of God and do not have a clue how to fit him in my test tube to examine Him...what about Christophanies and the seven Spirits of God and so many more things i will not go into here. . . God can do and be whatever He wants to do or be ergo the seven Spirits of God. if you can figure Him out and explain everything then your god is too small. i have to let God be whatever He wants to be...God is love and he who abides in love abides in God...with love jimp"

g:
(Form is not the issue and neither is whether we have his name right. What is most important is where is the core of our affections

Because of being sure, the title of this thread has been changed. Currently, there is progressive knowledge here from scripture in reconstructing the doctrine of Godhead.

From the onset of this whole revelation found in scripture without the theological clap-trap preserved and reinforced by unquestioning sheeple, this has been an exercise in working through all the various scriptures relative to God's revelation of Himself through YH(Sh)VH.

All of every one of God's revelations made manifest to man have only come through Christ Jesus the Lord, who has declared the end since the beginning.

Everything else is hogwash!

'Phillip',

First off, thanks for the independence day well wishing. It's hoped yours was all the snap crackle pop--(and we're not talking rice crispies)--that a 4th of July should be.

Not thinking this to be an entertainment forum by any stretch of what some imagine, you are being given time to do as you state: "more later."

. . .but down to brass tacks. . .

You have written alot of things that do not even
--at least to current knowledge and wisdom, coupled with understanding in and recieved from the spirit of Jesus through scripture--
seem right.
Why isn't a scriptural basis be provided for what is typed by them there fingers of yours?

You have been so adamant about what becomes text in these threads, yet some things just fly in the face of scripture.

Back about 10 mo? ago you put something up about 'possessing your vessel',(if recalled correctly, commentary by Gabelien on that passage in Thess.)and reading that, it was so wondered why any person would believe that. . .especially those who follow the spirit of Jesus' lead in them.
(There is only one vessel that is your vessel and that is the 'tabernacle' you yourself are now 'camping' in. Nothing else in this life is your own. . .and even this is to be a living sacrifice HOLY AND ACCEPTABLE offered to God. If we are indeed redeemed, even we are not our own, but what christian possesses anyone elses body anyway?)

Phillip, the trinitarian deception, to the best of our knowledge, was unheard of until just before 200 A.D. Even then, it was just an incomplete set of ideas and nobody yet said God was three persons.

People should recognize one fact that stands above all others in relation to this, as well as any other falsehood:
The further from the river's source, the more polluted the stream becomes.

Why do so many say, "I WILL determine whether this be of God or not" instead of just getting alone with God, and bow down to ask Him to reveal Himself through the scripture and then prove us in it via the daily grind.

Now look what's happened. We see far too many religionists of the head without their heart turned to Jesus Christ as the basis for all they recieve from God in their life: being, doing, and having.
(What gives anybody following Jesus (that is to say, 'led of the spirit') the notion that these should be followed or even endorsed?

Men who did not fear God, yet remaining faithful towards the great harlot, The Mother of Abominations, have concieved in their own minds many things to make Thee Faith smooth--not unlike so many Pharissees of y-eraz gone by.

Prayers here are that all take into account what scripture really says instead of what men are saying about scripture. If so, we could do away with alot of traditions of men that do not draw anyone closer to either Christ or His doctrine. If we all will just do this one thing alot of controversy that is evidenced by more than 1500 '?christian?' sects will over time become a thing of the past.
(who doesn't want unity of the faith, instead of fractured factions so named demoninnations?)

'Phillip' you can take as much time as it takes.

If we look at the Bible and find a congruent Genesis to Revelation teaching of the Bible that does not have Jesus as both the beginning, the middle, and the end of it, it is something that comes from half-cocked minds that cannot recieve the truth, reprobate in their own special way.

Not knowing how long the 'later' is that you mentioned, and still working on response to Chris, only because there is little time to type right now, things that just seem to strike me as way off:

Jesus body is not a spirit, and neither is His soul (He came IN THE LIKENESS OF)and look at what you imply 'that the 'ghost' he (his physical soul expression) gave up was not the eternal spirit. (How else could he die?????)
Are you walking in that ancient heresy of the gnostics: The spirit of God came in the appearance of a body, but was not a body???
(Phillip, soul is not spirit and spirit is not soul!)

Over 80 % of the Bible (the OT) reveals that man is four parts and God is one. This argument about we're three parts so God is three parts does not stand.

...if the comforter is not Jesus' spirit, then who is it that is the friend that sticks closer than a brother?

Now are other things that need attending to here, however before ending this post, just a comment on your end comment:
" the Holy Spirit is a dove and will not force Himself on any believer, we must seek Him for truth."

If Jesus is the truth, and the paraclete holy spirit is this spirit of truth, how can anyone say that this Holy Spirit is not Jesus' spirit?
(There is no truth to us apart from Jesus!)

There is also grave misgnomer about this gentleman business too. Out of all the birds that exist, the dove is seen as the most territorial. If one comes into His territory, doing what they should not do there, intruding where unbidden, the intruder becomes victim to a swft plucking out of their eyes, and if the transgressor does not have enough sense to get away from there after that, this lone bird will pluck their blinded victim to death.
The spirit of God is like the wind and no man can say anything will or will not be forced into or away from anything, believer or not, by the Holy Spirit of Jesus.

. . .and if somebody has the nerve to even dare tread on this dove-like Spirit's turf, well consider Annanias and Saphaira or King Herod (in Acts) as two prime examples of how gentle this dove really is, believer or not, respectively.

Shalom,

gregg

Phillip, this is all new revelation to me, and i myself am learning as i go. It's one thing to be able to accept something revealed by the spirit after seeing it again and again in the sriptures, and another to spell out all the details as if this were something understood for years. . .
. . .this is to say, i don't understand that yet sometimes, and other times with certain things i may.

Being raised mostly in evangelical churches affiliate with the Missionary Alliance, it was strange to take Confirmation (what is to Catholics Chatechism)in the Swedish Missionary Alliance Church (up in Minnesota). i was force fed and memorized the Westminster Catechism along with the doctrines of that church.

I attended church with Steve Saint, in Wilmar. Though it was even then no longer called SWMA but was known as The Covenant Church. They are responsible for starting the now godless University in Chicago called Northwestern. If you know a little about missions, that name should ring a bell.
Though they seemed more evangelical in statement, i told dad back then they always reminded me of Lutherans or closer to Presberterians (sp?) who used liturgy alot and not Missionary Alliance.

Dad was often heard saying,"Gregg, no man has a corner on the truth and there is good and bad in everything out of whomevers mouth. Look to the scriptures as your guide." This time after saying that, he enrolled me in a Bible class with the ultra-fundamentalist in town:Third Baptists.
Things seemed to be going from dry to drier.
(Still, all these churches are trinitarian. . .and don't think this religious philosophy wasn't ingrained in me memorizing and reciting the Westminster.)

i'm just trying to give you a handle on what belief has been dropped to latch onto to this Bible truth. Belief in trinity by me
(as if God were three entities)
was continued in until seeing the close relationship between the Holy Spirit with who Jesus is and what he does.

Last night in the middle of the night i awoke first worshipping Jesus, then prayed that God open both our eyes so through this we all together (everybody)can end up on the same page.
(Phillip, if i do not continue to follow the spirit's lead in this, i could really come up with some whacked out ideas. i'm speaking when spoken to and letting everybody inon how this is revealed to me.)

[it's wished someone would PM me about this and say yeah, i understand this and loearned it from the scriptures by His spirit. (

The closest to this truth of the Holy Spirit has been heard here is that Bill McLeod sermon first post this thread;
BUT THEN YESTERDAY AFTER downloading and listening through all Mark Case's messages here, seems we are tight in agreement. (If not for his voice, some of those messages sound like exact duplicates to what i proclaim here. We must read the same book and have the same Spirit helping both of us pray and say)

After last night's/morning's worship and petition, two things were brought to remembrance for our help:

1st--> Jesus was ordained both Lord and Christ before the foundation of the world. Jesus never changes. Though emptied of His glory, born of the woman's seed, he was still both Lord and Christ. On the cross He was still both Lord and Christ

2nd--> is in regards to my comment about what Jesus said on earth is indeed prophecy(, so all His words (including John 14) need be looked at as prophecy):

(The scene of John and Peter at the gate Beautiful, and that leper ending up walking and leaping and praising God came to mind . . .so this was looked up and read, then coming to the following, the reason for this being brought to imagination became clear)
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
~Acts 3.22-26

Also recall Revelation 19.10 ". . .worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Just one thing that really bugs me when you say, God the Holy Spirit and you probably understand why already: Since the Holy Spirit is understood (here at least) to be the everywhere present spirit of Jesus, how can it be called God. Where is this in the Bible?

I see SPIRIT is OF GOD, but never is God's spirit called God.

Consider the Hebrew analogy of ruach to Greek pneuma, being breath or wind or spirit. (actually, the word piture for ruach is whirlwind and is used as the word to typify the emotions and feelings (of man's heart) and not his own personal spirit at all. If we stay true to the Oriental worldview through with both the New and Old testament are framed, the lives breathed into Adam, from the breath of God does not suddenly become our spirit to posess.

We are borrowers. No man is the life of the spirit loaned to them:

". . .Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. . ."
~Ecclesiastes 12.7

Second consider breath. God breathes ("into Adamah the breathS of life". . .but what God breathed out, does that remain God or is it just of/from God?
If it does remain God, then every man has the spirit of God in them.
(we know this just is not so.)

The spirit of God is of God and is not God.
God is spirit, but spirit is not God.

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
~John 20.19-22

Now if the spirit of Jesus is all that Jesus is, then the spirit of God is indeed God.
The truth is that
the Bible never calls
the spirit of God-->God the Spirit
because God's spirit is not God, but rather is an out-breathing/pouring from God.

The spirit of God is whaT God releases from His being: power/dunamis

(see what i'm getting at about the Holy Spirit/Breath/Wind)

Here's another verse to think about before we type back and forth again:

While Peter preached on the day of Pentecost:
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
~Acts 2.33

Jesus "hath shed forth this."
He [Jesus]recieves the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, and sheds this forth in and through us.
(It is only through the spirit of Jesus, who is both mediator and advocate, we can even know the Father.
(Jesus says,"No man cometh to the Father but by me.")

It's hoped all that was said right.

Gotta' go dear Brother,
gregg

P.S. tELL ME IF THIS IS SCREWED UP.

SIGH!!!! And I thought the KJV threads were confusing. Have fun guys.

There is no intention to confuse anyone.

If one will look to the first post on this thread, there are links to two other threads which compliment this one.

As well, due to time constraints, at present, there is little time to spell everything out in full detail.

Add to these two things the personal tendency to speedily type actual trains of thought: spelling might be off, the grammar is horrendous, errors, such as calling descriptive nouns adjectives and the like. . .all add to the hodge podge of a muddled continuum.

In one of those previous (1st page) threads it was stated that this is all intended to be typed in ordered detail so that those who are sincere in worshipping and serving God in truth can come to a clearer understanding of these things.

Still there are things that have not been brought up for debate, and hopes are that all the bases are covered before this is posted as the complete truth from the Bible (-vs- doctrines of demons)
-----------------------------------------------------------
(thinking about this, it resulted from 5 years of intense unceasing Bible study, yet when the dam burst STS, now it is realized to be more than 18 mopnths ago.

What is now more often than not daily occurances of this nature, and the first statement of text in the link below is what this is all about:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=40014&forum=44&0

An explanation of that statement follows:

After Thursday night Bible studies, a few of us would always remain back, then minister to the Lord in Worship when we were sure the figity, impatient, those in bondage to schedules, those who did not get it, or had more important things to do were long gone and out of the picture completely.

Gifts of the spirit operated freely during these times. Often revelation followed, the Lord speaking through one of us gathered.

We would often search the scriptures after the speaking forth, or miracles, or whatever happened. After this worship ended, sometimes we would start back in studying Bible where we had left off if we were not checking that whatever happened conformed to scripture.

One fellow in these Bibloe study times began speaking falsehood though it sounded like truth.

He was saying that the reason God gave the law was to bring man to God.

Overcome by God's spirit filling me to the brim, it just spilled out and shocked everyone. I was so filled, there wasn't even any personal feelings involved when what was not planned at all poured out:

"That is what doctrines of demons are all about. Through the influence of temporal living or taking ideas that seem good, they are promoted as truth. If it is not in conformity with Jesus, and what He has revealed in the scriptures, do not say it.

The law was never ever intended to bring man closer to God. Only self-righteous legalists believe that lie.
Law was always given after man was in covenant with God through atonement, and no man can get closer to God than through blood atonement.

Jesus minstry, both what he said and what he did completely satisfied our Father. Jesus did a full and complete work. Anyone who adds to or detracts from His words will have hell to pay."

(A friend at times kept mp3 digital recordings of these sessions. This was one of those times. After these works bubbling up and pouring out of this mouth like that, being so amazed, it was listened to repeatedly.It was spoken in a way that nobody questioned--(not even Mr. Sceptical Spectacles

You know, God created man in His image.

One man, not three or a half a dozen just one man.

And when some time had passed, from the image that God created, God pulled out another image from the man and created Woman.

From the ONE image of God, in the bosom of that image, was another image...woman.

When we get to the New Testament, it's the same.

Jesus the image of God comes out from the bosom of the Father and is born into this world.

Father(man) Jesus(weaker vessel) equals One Spirit.

From the scriptures this is how the Lord has shown me Himself.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe, but please keep this in mind, God created one man in His image, and from that image He created a woman and they two shall become one flesh or in the New Testament, one Spirit.

Some years ago while after coming in from an exhausting day I just flopped on the bed and began thinking about the things of God, Jesus appeared in my thought process and I saw Him standing there and saying, "It is time for you to meet the Father". With arms stretched out, He pointed to a throne and on that throne I saw darkness surrounding it. I was at first perplexed wondering if this was one of Satan's tricks. But as I gazed beyond the thick dark clouds I saw as if I was seeing the similitude of a man. Bare with me the words don't come easy. In comparison to Jesus, Jesus stood with all the glory, He shone, but the Father stood in this thick haze not easy to get to and easily misunderstood. I wondered with amazement and a deep appreciations began to well up within me. This was the beginning where I started calling God Father. The understanding came slowly and I began to see snippets here and there how that the Father is not seen readily, but is seen through a need, through the hungry, through the hurting. He is often overlooked. Through Christ He was shown to the world, but His own received Him not, they didn't recognize Him in Christ His express image of His Person. Sadly, neither do we.

I saw no "Holy Spirit", nothing to suggest that there was another person of the Godhead. It's just as the Lord had said, "I and the Father are one", which means One Spirit.

I saw no "Holy Spirit", nothing to suggest that there was another person of the Godhead. It's just as the Lord had said, "I and the Father are one", which means One Spirit.

Visions trump Scripture. Rad.

071611CST9:00 a.m.

Any true light made known through God's Word will most likely stand in direct opposition to what we think the truth really is.

If you have been following along:
--humbly praying that God reveal to us things lost, neglected, perverted, and/or forgotten
--with our Bibles
--checking accuracy in interpretation of the archaic languages
--checking the historical accuracy of facts stated
--reading the former threads first mentioned
(in the initial post of this thread)
Currently, we should (more or less) all be on the same page.
We should all in one accord becoming clearer about the truth of godhead as
revealed in God's Word.

Know this. My own intellect fought these things to the nth degree. It was through seeing from scripture again and again how things in it did not line up with what had been taught that questioning grew into searching then finding.

Thanks be to God who will not ever quit hounding me. It is so wonderful to know that His concern for us is not just letting us be happy in going the way we might think is right, and whether by scourging or a gentle still soft word spoken, He trains us in the way we should go.

About 9 months ago, when God took me back behind the woodshed. . .
[just before Grant--and a few others--rebuked me on forum for the rise of pride (more than) evident in posts! --Thank you so much brothers and sisters! You just don't realize how much the prayers of you Grant, Rick, Jim, and others who did not directly confront me have helped in God continually deepening development into the spirit of humility. i am increasingly learning to agape all here until we one day see one anothers face to face: knowing as we are known!]
. . .a few things were made very clear, summarized from personal perspective in the following:

There is always someone before and someone behind us on the straight and narrow. It is only because of my recieved grace and your recieved grace, King Jesus, that any of us recieves any wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the truth whatsoever. Our Heavenly Father has ordained Him to be our all in all things. You and me, we are the body and though we may at times not understand, we all need each other to function in wholeness. When each of us stands for everyone else without partiality (and not against each another), we will finally recognize unity of the faith.
[Believe this, how God rebuked me was far more blunt and to the point, yet the principles are given above towards the admonishment and encouragement of all who read.]

Through years of repetition in teaching traditions that do not come from scripture, all of us, in varying degrees have strayed further from the literal revelation of the scriptures. It may have begun as something added to or taken away from what was initially written. It may have come through the influx of the church apostate mingling paganism, worldly philosophies, and ideas of men into what the scriptures already reveal. It might have been something taught to be believed and observed by generation after generation of those who have been duped into these things before you were ever a twinkle in your parents eyes. No matter what the reason(s), we have all been decieved in one way, and another, and another. . .ad infinitim.

A little leaven does what?

There has to be a coming back to the way things were initially established: the faith(fulness) once and for all time delivered by Jesus Christ.

So many of these constructs of ignorant human ingenuity we call doctrine are not really doctrine at all. If one is to call these things doctrines, call them what the scripture reveals them to be: doctrines of demons, doctrines of devils. These dogmatic fabrications do not have God as the source. These human analogies based on pick and choose verses taken out of context with human reasoning supporting false notions opposed to what is literally written.

This is one of the quickest routes to confound ourselves. First, we becoming: blind to the literal truth. We also are deaf to messages and messengers sent by God to prepare a way for the return of the Lord.

If it were not enough that we delude ourselves into more and more self deception, we can no longer hear what God is individually telling us by His own spirit.

The word of God reveals how God deals with those who serve and worship things he has not revealed of and by Himself. First, He quits with having anything to do with these who turn their back on Him choosing to bow down to these things which are actually
earth(l)y

Your comment about vision trumping scripture may not be right. Last time checked, in Acts, Stephen saw Jesus STANDING AND NOT SEATED at the right hand of the Father. . .so which one is it???

I only meant simply that basing our understanding of doctrine on some sort of "vision" that we may or may not have actually had, and saying that this "proves" anything is not only dangerous but can't be taken seriously. Thus when someone cites their own "vision" and tries to say it validates anything that's outside of what's written (as I believe the Holy Spirit's distinct "being", if you will, is) I just find their credibility takes a sharp turn downward. And I mean REALLY downward.

Stephen saw what he saw. Scripture records that, and I believe it. But I've never taken that to mean anything other than what it said, simply that he saw Jesus. It never implies that Stephen was also saying, "Yup, there's only two of them, are you getting this Luke? I can't see any Holy Spirit."

And my issue was not whether or not Jesus was standing or sitting.

Forgive me for not adding further dialogue though.

Visions trump Scripture. Rad.

NOT one of them obeyed that command!!

If we say something else to excuse this tardy behaviour that the disciples had, than surely we should consider those that might hear from God today that if it doesn't EXACTLY say word for word it doesn't mean it's not right. If the wording of the bible is all we need then why bother having discernment? Even Paul would want us to discern his own writings.

Believe it or not folks, there is more growth awaiting us in the Spirit than there is in the letter.

They did exactly what they were told by revelation they believed.

Brother Ron,

Good to see you have finally chimed in. Perhaps you, with 'Phil' and Rob, can team up and together contend for the heresy created through Roman Catholicism together.

Phil, Rob, and Ron,
ow about this for starters?

Since all of you think man being in the image of God means that God is just like a man, yet state that God is three persons:
--all of the above mentioned does not agree with scripture--
So we all are like God and we are all three persons in one???

Since all three of you are so adamant about this with no solid biblical evidence besides assumptions from passages taken out of context (or reasonings without biblical proof to back them at all). . .
. . .just to give all trinitarians reading the benefit of a doubt about this three person business, for the remainder of this thread, when responding, i will attempt to conform to the 'reality' of this notion. For this cause, in reference to myself,--(only on this thread mind you,)-- there will no longer be any first person singular reference when speaking of OURSELVES. Instead, WE will refer to OURSELVES in the first person plural tense.

WE are really wondering why each of you, 9 in all, are so adamant about this whole falsehood. Jesus never taught it as something to be believed, and if you read everything he said in relation to the spirit of God in relation to our Old Testament, he never contradicts what it says. WE request for all nine of you to provide explanations as to why you think you have the right to do this.

Either you 9 are sticking with non-Biblically based traditions of men or--according to the theories you have been trained to uphol--God has changed. We would like for all 9 of you to answer for yourselves about this.

Though there is little time for US presently to get into this further and directly respond to the illogical non-rhetoric of what you 9 propose, it is supposed to get up to 115 degrees today, so us three, and the 15 persons working with US will probably be knocking off early. Lord willing, should this be the case, there willprobably be time for WE 3 to answers the posts from all nine of you.

Until then, if you 9 have opportunity, look as John 14 more closely for starters. . .and please study it without including the faulty the notion of the Holy Spirit being something other than the presence of the Father in Jesus Christ who will manifest Himself in the presence and power in and of Himsel after being reunited with the Father.

H, already it seems there is too much psycho-babble rap from the three of you and not enough scripture to support assumptions stated. hen it is pointed out to you hat scripture actually say, since none of you seem to be taking

Rob,

Before we begin dealing with this entity business:

It's asked that you 3 altogether check and see what the root meaning of the work person is and then tell how many persons ther are in the godhead, and it's not zero.

As well, you 3 ask if an attribute can speak:
When in the N.T. Koine Greek, when it says that God speaks (from heaven) with a voice, it is referred to as " the daughter of a voice" and not just "a voice" as we read in English.

The Holy Spirit is not known to speak audibly, except through prophets and apostles.

. . .and finally, WE will answer you 3 directly about whether an attribute can speak: in the sense that the word is used in context of passages related, yes. What is a voice if it is not an attribute?

Phil, if you were reading earlier in the thread, you will see that it is not disagreed that the spirit of God can be referred to as he, (as well as it), as the Greek is not saying he but he/it when a definite article is used with the word spirit.

To US at least, it is not merely a matter of semantics, but rather understanding that the OT and NT are a congruent whole. The NT is just a continuation from where the OT left off. If it's believed things have changed, it would be because God has changed in some way, shape, or form.

Thinking God has changed merely proves that something is being misunderstood somewhere along the line.

GOD HAS NOT AND NEVER DOES CHANGE:
NOT NO WAY;
NOT NO HOW.

. . .Selah. . .

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
~Matthew 12.1-7

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
~1 Corinthians 3.11-23

Brother Robert,

The title was changed with from "is God Really Three Persons" to the all caps title it now holds.

(Now it's wished that was never done.)
Honestly, it should not have been done as the arguments are becoming too many "rabbit trails", as Travis pointed out when this was brought up again.

If your persons' are insistent on responses to all the variables recently brought up, it will be done, yet this letter should help all reading recognize that without getting to the point, and then dealing with these things, this might possibly end up another dead thread.

The next written response was to Chris, Grant, and approved, however it seems that between your selfs, Ron's three persons, and 'Phillip's three persons, all twelve of us would be running circles chasing rabbits forever should individuated responses continued.

Your persons are assuming too much in thinking there is a group gathered together to trash and burn trinitarianism. It's just WE--('meaning me, three-in-one gregg)-- will reveal the underbelly of what many think is christian history without having to go into alot of detail.

One thing above all else that is despised here is some sort of 'party spirit' and if your persons' have read any comments from here regarding the 'majority whip' never being God's best, this is an individual quest to know God more and die following Jesus footsteps. It just WE, (meaning me: three-in-one gregg).

Personal stance is if one says that God is three in one, (as in individuated expressions united ,) that number falls short by 6: Father, Son, and the seven spirits OF God (not as being God):

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5.6

So, explain why God is three, not Father, Son, and the seven spirit OF God sent out from Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God?

With that verse alone, trinitarianism is flipped on it's head.

. . .BUT WAIT, there's more!
For an additional $ 19.95, you get not only the established principles behind. . .oops, wrong website.

Robert,
What most think of as the "historic Christian church" is not the way it really was at it's onset. The Christianity of today is not what was evidence after pentecost. . .and only persecution will change that.

Your persons keep on hammering away at church history, however you really are referring to Roman Catholic church and it's Protestant offspring which is not the church at all. How dare you call a state run money making operation with emperor as pope a church! Do all three of you think calling this Mother of Harlots a church somehow validates it's history?
This so called 'church' forced 'conversion' by:
the point of sword,
axe and chopping bloc to sever heads,
gillotine,
pendulum,
poisoning,
the rack,
the iron maiden,
whips tail ended with shards of metal and bone,
caging,
stocks,
burning humans alive at the stake,
starving some,
drowning others,
and too many other wicked torturous things to recount--all of which God did not endorse. . . you call that a church? Where the 'ordained' minions were paid so in any way possible they could bring the people under Roman rule under the headship of the state? You call that a church?

Early fathers of what church?

(It's wondered if Protestants or Catholics are more culpable towards the unwarranted slaying and persecution of my people, as well as other minorities.
(the majority whip thingy)

The apple does not fall far from the tree.

There is alot that is hidden and hush-hushed about Protestantism which takes some real digging if you don't know where to start looking. (. . .and neither was America immune from these foibles).
[This is not a grudge. Rather if these agencies are noted in full light: everybody will see they really are not that admirable at all and everything they do as organizations needs to be scrutinized by discerning what Jesus thinks, says, and does by comparison.

These organizations are not the true church.

There seems to be impatience about "leaving no stone unturned", through which your persons and other associated individual three-in-one persons seem to have resorted to implying stupidity and nonsense here.

For these reasons, from here on out, for the time being, it is going to be just prayers to the throne and scripture with supplimental facts from history proving:

--how and when trinitarianism began
--why it is unbiblical
--a congruent picture of Godhead provided through God's revelation of himself
--personal testimony and or revelation through the spirit OF the Lord
--and anything further found in prayer, meditation on scriptures, and/or --historic research-- relative to the above four things.

All debate from US will be put on hold until further notice, because the majority is always right. . .right Brother Robert?

If this were not meant to bring clarity through God's Word rather than what the traditions of man have misconstrued into a not understood mystery, this issue would have never been hammered away at so incessantly.

God never reveals things to man to confuse him. Rather, His desire is that all men come to know Him through the revelation of Himself in every aspect through Jesus Christ MY LORD.

Above is the only reason the Bible was given to man.

Charis,

gregg

p.s. Thanks for all the cannon fodder, most of which have been thought through. Some were not even considered.

Doctor? RobertS,

There is no doubt your persons have a good grasp of what you three-in-one mentioned in your persons' above post, however this is merely a sideline issue.

As stated previously, first things first.

If anyone thinks this thread's purpose is for that purpose, they are missing the point completely. . .or WE might be; and though this might possibly be the case, it is highly doubted.

By all means, chime in if there is something that is faulty in what is typed on this thread hereafter, however, response regarding any debate or objections will have to wait if it is not directly related to the true purpose of this thread:

God's revelation of Himself
vs
man's misconstruction of what He is not.

Your persons, or anybody elses for that matter, will be heeded, and WE will re-double check with Thee Truth and historic facts should there appear to be anything that is Biblically or historically inaccurate from sources, which are sleight bit foggy in the historic department.
Here it seems your persons might possibly be of help Dr. RobertS. Corrections will then be made accordingly.

After the main points have been put forth, we can then go back and cover all the attempts to make more "rabbit trails." After 'first things first' are covered, Lord willing, WE shall then address sideline objections to things that have been secondarily related for debate.

That is all for now.

Thank you
for
your time
and
attention.

From OUR kotz to your persons',

phaney

Very well said, Phillip. That should close this thread.

Blaine

He's not! Says who? Someone been smoking some funny stuff to come up with this weird thread. Just joking but this is bozarre!!!!