What is the purpose for a believer to turn from sin?

There is a purpose but it is not to 'hang on to salvation' nor 'give evidence of salvation' so what is the purpose for a believer to turn from sin?

OJ

Hi Joe. You referred me to this thread but I have to give up on the first half of your sentence and just answer the question part from my heart ... both Love & Reverence.

The thought came to me after reading these two statements and one question in one sentence about why I'm living where I am. My earthly, soon to be 93 y.o. father asked me to move near-by him. I left a town and church and more that I loved more than life to do what he asked because I love him and whatever he asks me to do, I jump to do it because, plain and simply, I just love him and respect him for who he is.

I'm trying to witness to Dad as well. He's a tough nut to crack. One day the only thing that I could think to say to him of why he should acknowledge Jesus, was to ask him a short question. I asked him, "Dad, what if you took a bullet for me and died and I just waved it/you off, as if to say, who cares?"

Joe, what do I do if my Dad asks me to drive slower while he's in the car, but I like to drive fast?

But using Dad as an example isn't sufficient, because a believer is indwelled by the Spirit of GOD Who enables us.
For it is GOD that worketh in you both to will and to do of His Good pleasure.
That's the verse that follows, '...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' - which can be another verse that could go with the others in my question to you on the other thread.

His Love to you & yours.

To partake of Christ

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:12-15)

This passage shows that sin and unbelief go together. If we could truly believe in Christ while holding onto sin than the devils could be saved too (James 2:19).

This is seen again in John 3:18-20: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:18-20)

Old Joe requested that I take up these verses on this thread rather than the one I posted them on, with my question -

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Thank you Travis for your post. Amen!
Unless He's assigned another authority or 'voice' to answer all of our questions, 'His' Word is still The final authority.

Passerby, to answer your questions and Joe's - get your Bible and put your thumb on Matthew Chpt 1 and then your index finger on the end of Revelation Chpt 22.
Now squeeze those two fingers together.
Do you see what a tiny Book the New Testament is?

To glorify God!

Spoken in the positive, yes! Or to speak in the negative,'so the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed'.

It has NOTHING to do with our evidence of salvation, which evidence is that we believe the record God bare of his Son; nor has it anything to do with our overcoming or persevering to hold on to, or show our salvation being held.

The Christian turns from sin for the benefit of another not for the benefit of self, and does so out of desire, ,NOT fear, nor duty nor obligation. THIS is what love is, and the turning from sin is to put that love on display that all the world may glorify God for this work in such a venomous creature.

OJ

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

When we see the depth of the commandments in Matt 5-6 we see that NONE keep the commandments in their fullness, and are to be reminded that none ever do. To KEEP God's commandments one is to understand that these commandments condemn them, and that none can ever be justified before God in/by adhering to them, but that God can be justified before other men by a man's desire to adhere to something so opposed to his very nature.

I keep the commandments when I understand that they condemn me, which in turn throws me back upon the very Saviour who came to deliver me from that condemnation. In turn for His so great salvation I henceforth desire to do what I can to bring glory to His name, knowing I can never adhere to that which He did on my behalf.

OJ

hi, if a man who has a wife and is faithfull because he doesnt want to get caught and wind up in court might just fall if on a business trip in europe. a man who loves his wife greatly will not even think of damaging their relationship.jimp love has power and fear has torment.jimp

OJ

Old Joe wrote : "It has NOTHING to do with our evidence of salvation, which evidence is that we believe the record God bare of his Son; nor has it anything to do with our overcoming or persevering to hold on to, or show our salvation being held."

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

If we believe Christ he will live in us by His Spirit (1 John 3:20), and the life of Christ by nature fulfills the righteousness of the law, as Romans 8:1-4 is clear about. There is no such thing as saving faith in Christ that does not produce the life of Christ within the believer demonstrating Christ to the world. Christ and sin are as opposite as darkness and light, and though a true believer may give in to sin he cannot continue in it and still partake of Christ. Truly turning from sin Is done to cleave to Christ, and by its very essence IS turning from self-love to glorify God- as self-seeking is the very essence of sin and the nature of ungodliness and unrighteousness, which God's wrath is against according to Romans 1:18.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And EVERY MAN that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:2-3)

In contrast: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (1 John 3:4-5)

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:12-15)

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

And herein lies the rub, do you keep his commandments?

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

And next do you walk even as Christ walked? You OUGHT to, but do you?

An honest look should find the answer to both of those questions to be no, and that no should humble you, and turn you back upon Christ.

ETA Now if we OUGHT to walk even as He walked and see that we don't (because none actually do), that evidence becomes of no use in assurance of salvation; and likewise in the keeping of the commandments. All that we have left for evidence of our salvation is that we believe the record that God bare of His Son.

OJ

I hope we keep his commandments. That is something each one of us must answer before God. If we don't keep his commandments we don't know Christ. The scripture could not be any plainer.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)

Merely believing the facts about Christ cannot save anyone, as even the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19). You can walk into any bar in America and find people living in open, gross sin who think they're saved because they prayed a prayer to accept Jesus. There is a difference between being exactly like Jesus (which no one is claiming to be as far as I know) and walking in the power of the Holy Spirit where sin does not have dominion over you through the power of Christ. Before I was a Christian I was covetous, lustful, hateful... Jesus delivered me. I still need to take up the cross daily and abide in him to not go back to my old life. There is a vast difference between one taking up the cross and abiding in Christ and one living after the flesh. We must abide in Christ and live after the Spirit to have an interest in Christ. There are literally hundreds of verses that show that one's life is the determining factor of salvation, as that is the very evidence Christ lives in one or not. Striving to keep the law by human effort will always result in bad fruit, whereas poverty in Spirit and utter dependence on Christ produces good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit. If this were not the case, then the warning to examine ourselves, whether we're in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5 would be pointless. Two verses later (2 Corinthians 13:7) and the entire books of 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians show Paul was speaking about how we live, not just what we believe intellectually.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. " (1 John 3:7-8)

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " (Matthew 3:10)

Are you sinless? If you still sin you do not 'keep' the commandments. Your own heart will bear witness to this.

OJ

Dear Friend, I read this again of late and will explain why it's hitting me, after posting it ...

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
*Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My Name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

[Matt 24:7-13]

Joe, in the time that I've been in the Church, I have never seen such a growing animosity for His Word than I've seen in the last 10 yrs. And Growing it is. I do believe that GOD's Chief Aim is to protect His Word above all else, in Heaven and on earth, in it's entirety - He even exalts it above His Name.
Over the years, I've found that if we just give someone a sermon to listen to, it's accepted well enough, but if we begin to point at His Word or quote it, it's as if all Hell breaks lose. "Many are offended, etc".
Satan hates The Word of GOD made flesh and Written more than anything we can even begin to imagine. When we have to be fearful to quote Scripture around people from churches and all, that's when we know that the days spoken of in these verses above have come. Every vile spirit will come against you if you stick to speaking only His Word, even if you paraphrase it so that it doesn't sound like you're quoting the KJV. Many times I've been tempted to lighten up from it when out there talking with others because of the anger I feel being directed at "it", even from those who like me - but The LORD said that if we're ashamed of Him - He'll be ashamed of us. He is The Word of GOD.
Why does Satan want to rob us of His Word so badly? - because it is our life in Him. Our sword of warfare against the onslaughts of the enemy. Because it's "Zoe-Life" - the Bread of Life, as Jesus is called. It's growth for us. It transforms us, cleanses us and on and on it goes but mainly because He IS The Word of GOD. But there's been a move for some time now to cause people to believe that The Word is not that necessary to know or put into our hearts and minds. That the words of men or women are more important to read or hear than His Pure Word. That 15 minutes of reading the Word but hours of the other or anything else will suffice.
Persecution is on our door-steps and it will be over the truth of His Word. If we back away or water it down now, we won't have that leg to stand on when the days become much more evil. We won't have the strength to endure or remail faithful because we weren't faithful to guard His Word. The very thing that causes persecution will be the only thing to get us through it, because His Holy Spirit only backs His Word being called, The Spirit of Truth. He's jealous over it and it is His purpose to exalt it only.
We've got to take it as it is. We have to take it in it's entirety. We can't water it down or pull verses anymore. We need to eat the Whole Lamb. The New Testament is such a tiny book in size, yet without eating the whole of it, we've rejected Christ Himself. Just read it as a child.

The cost of following Him, is to be prepared to suffer what those who GOD used to pen those Words went through, but 'with' those Words - will take what they went through as victoriously as they did, because of their Love for The Word of GOD - The Word of Life, both Christ and written. Php 2:16, 1Jn 1:1.

That's all I felt burdened to say. We need to pay the price for standing by and on the Word of GOD, although the assaults of the enemy will be the greatest that this world has ever seen and we'll lose friends, family, etc, but if we don't have that great great Love and hunger for The Word, we need to pray for it desperately now. It's a matter of life and death that Love has Everything to do with.

Thank you for listening and LORD help us all.

Do you have to be sinless to keep the commandments though? It is a matter of whose authority we are under and therefore whose power we are under. Those who submit to Christ are led of the Spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the law. Those who walk after the flesh fulfill the desires of the flesh and mind and are at enmity with God.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:1-3)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:3-9)

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13

The Bible is 100% clear that it's possible to walk in the Spirit, fulfill the law, and not live after the flesh by Christ's power. It's also 100% clear that our salvation is determined by whether we walk after the flesh or the Spirit, as that shows whether Christ or Satan is our Master. It's not a matter of sinless perfection, but the issue is that Christ's power delivers from the power of sin. There is a depth to sin (and thus to righteousness) that is exceedingly deep which any who walk in the Spirit realize and thus know they are far from being like Jesus. That's a matter of maturity, not a matter of victory, for God has promised victory to all who submit to Christ (as the scriptures above demonstrate) by Christ's power. All can have victory now, maturity takes a lifetime walking with Christ. The key being that God never suffers temptation beyond what it's possible for us to overcome by His grace. We MUST overcome the world and cannot stay bound to sin, which is the characteristic of all who are in Adam and and live after the flesh. Who is on the throne of our lives? is the real question.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 2:2-5)

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." (1 Corinthians 10:12-14)

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14)

The Bible is 100% clear that it's possible to walk in the Spirit, fulfill the law, and not live after the flesh by Christ's power.

Not so. The Bible is 100% clear in its EXHORTATION to walk in the Spirit and not live after the flesh, but equally true that NONE fulfill the law. It is not Christ that enables a believer to fulfill the law it is Christ who fulfills the law, and imputes this to a believer in spite of the believer’s inability to fulfill it even with the power of the blood. That is how deep sin’s stain is.

It's also 100% clear that our salvation is determined by whether we walk after the flesh or the Spirit, as that shows whether Christ or Satan is our Master.

Not so. Our salvation is not determined by the way we walk but by whom we trust.

FYI Do a word study on the word Master, in every instance it is used with reference to Christ it is associated with a measure of unbelief.

It's not a matter of sinless perfection, but the issue is that Christ's power delivers from the power of sin.

And this is the worst part which makes a believer’s sin even worse than an unbeliever’s sin. This power is available and STILL we sin. Sin in light is much worse than sin in darkness.

That's a matter of maturity, not a matter of victory, for God has promised victory to all who submit to Christ (as the scriptures above demonstrate) by Christ's power.

Victory has such a broad definition these days I can’t tell for sure what you mean by it. God has promised salvation to all who trust Christ.

We MUST overcome the world and cannot stay bound to sin

Explain to me then precisely why you still sin?

Who is on the throne of our lives? is the real question.

Not so. The real question is who do we trust and for what? Upon trusting, what we do about that is as varied as the stars in the sky.

OJ

JIG

Joe, in the time that I've been in the Church, I have never seen such a growing animosity for His Word than I've seen in the last 10 yrs.

I haven't been to church in the last 10 years so I can't verify the church scene, but in my travels I can verify something a little different, very much like the Jews of old. They took the Bible to be the infallible word of God, but then stated that each verse could have 100 different interpretations. In this they could make the Bible say exactly what they wanted it to.

What I have found lately is that there has been much emphasis on Bible verses used out of context or in plain ignorance like a blind man shooting at a gang of thieves, going off in any direction. There is even a guy that goes by the name "the reverend Elvis" who preaches much of the word of God, and I don't even recognize it because of his terrible misappropriation of it.

Basically it has come down to this, the Bible is not so bad if everyone can make it say what they want it to.

I could say much about the way this world is going to unravel, and it is not the way that most think it will, but I am just going to keep quiet about it for now.

OJ

"It is not Christ that enables a believer to fulfill the law it is Christ who fulfills the law, and imputes this to a believer in spite of the believer’s inability to fulfill it even with the power of the blood. That is how deep sin’s stain is."

Sir, I answer this for the sake of the others here. Romans 8:3-4 is clear the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)

Paul's entire mission in preaching was summed up later in the book, which according to your quote was an impossible mission.

"That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Romans 15:16-19)

You wrote: "Not so. Our salvation is not determined by the way we walk but by whom we trust."

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of statements in scripture which say our salvation is determined by how we walk.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6)

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, THAT THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD." (Galatians 5:19-21)

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12)

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8)

And this makes it as plain as it can be. "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" (Phillipians 3:18-19)

And regarding whom we trust- To trust in Jesus means to submit to his authority over us. Jesus must be our Lord/King to be our Savior.

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2:7-12)

"O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?" (Hosea 13:9-10)

According to John 1:12 to believe in Jesus is equal to receiving him. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." We see the truth that to believe in Jesus is to receive his words in John 17:8, as Jesus prays to the Father for his disciples "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me." Again, Jesus showed that to reject his words is to reject HIM. "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." (John 12:47-49)

So we must ask further: Since believing in Jesus is to bow to him and receive his words as those of a King, then what is it that keeps people from receiving Jesus' words? Jesus made that clear in John 3:16-20. Most everyone knows John 3:16-17 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." But most are ignorant of how Jesus defined believing on him in the following verses, as well as the truth that mankind is already condemned, along with the reason Jesus gives for that. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation,that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:18-20)

Those who do not believe on the Son are already condemned. And those under condemnation love darkness rather than (more than) light, because their deeds are evil. And how does the Bible define evil deeds? Transgression of the moral law of God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4) It is clear then that in order to submit to God we must submit to Jesus, and that to submit to Jesus we must turn from transgressing the moral law of God in order to receive his words, which demonstrate the fulfillment of the moral law (Matthew 5:17-18).

"It is not Christ that enables a believer to fulfill the law it is Christ who fulfills the law, and imputes this to a believer in spite of the believer’s inability to fulfill it even with the power of the blood. That is how deep sin’s stain is."

Sir, I answer this for the sake of the others here. Romans 8:3-4 is clear the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)

Paul's entire mission in preaching was summed up later in the book, which according to your quote was an impossible mission.

Perhaps you missed that part that you capitalized. The righteousness of the laws might be fulfilled IN us (by imputation), not fulfilled BY us (through the works of the law).

You wrote: "Not so. Our salvation is not determined by the way we walk but by whom we trust."

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of statements in scripture which say our salvation is determined by how we walk.

I tell you what, you keep determining your salvation by how you walk, and I will determine my salvation by whom I trust, then we can each see how it turns out in the end.

Before you go though, let me ask you something. Do you ever buy goods made in China or other countries where workers wages are below poverty level? If you do you rob workers of their wages, and therefore are a thief. How about do you ever see an ad for something and consider that you might need it? Ah, then you are covetous and have broken number 10. Or what about the Lord's Day, have you ever done anything that caused another to work on this day (IE purchased anything, or played a game)? Then you have broken number 4.

I could go on....

OJ

Hia Joe. I'd like to share with you what we don't hear preached anymore - except for some twisted versions of "we are gods" and that's probably what's scared many from His teachings of what we have in Him. Not to get between you and growingone's conversation, but this was the thread that you referred me to, to continue our conversation from the other.
Just sharing my understanding of why Jesus came in the form that He did and 'why' He said and did the things that He did before dying for us.

What the vast majority have not been taught is that Jesus was not only the representation of GOD in the flesh but also the representation of "man joined to GOD" in the way He had prepared [that perfect union] and intended when He created us. Where it's none of us and all of Him and to His Glory because He is the Only Perfect One and lived that out for us as an Example.

That Jesus became what we are to become once we are joined to GOD through His death. He was our example on how to 'choose' to be "led by the Spirit". We have everything that He had and He was everything that He was offering to us as to how to walk in fellowship with GOD, as the last Adam. That's how much He lowered Himself and became submitted to GOD by the Spirit.

Joh 8:29 And He that Sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I DO always those things that please Him.

Every child of GOD has experienced being "led by The Spirit" at one time or another in their lives - to do or not do something in particular ... and not necessarily concerning sin but just a leading of His Spirit to do something and later we normally "tell someone" that they heard or felt "GOD lead them to do this or that."
Jesus was in constant communion/commuication with GOD by The Spirit in that way. He said that the words and works that He did were Not His but from His Father. He continuously pointed the Glory to "GOD" by repeatedly saying "He that sent Me" speaks these words or does these things, these are His Words. He humbled Himself to take on the representation of what our nature could be, if we "walked as He did in this earth".

Rom 8:13,14 And Eph 5;17,18 Paul speaks of being "led by the spirit" and not the flesh - as if we're given a choice of which voice to listen to within ourselves.

If we 'walk as Jesus did', as He intended us to - and "always do those things that please Him" - by the Spirit's leading or His Voice, as He did - then we are walking after the spirit and not our flesh.
The Spirit within us is never silent, but we shut His Voice out with our own thoughts and desires. But, if we learn that we can walk as Jesus did, in complete dependence on that "voice" [Jn 10] then we will be walking as He did and not taking any glory for the words, thoughts or actions that originate from Him. He was obedient to that "Voice" and came to earth not only to die for our sin and make us one with GOD, but to LIVE OUT the Example of how a GOD indwelled human is to walk, in childlike dependence upon what the 'Father's' Voice within us is saying.
Because this concept is so difficult for humans to grasp because we are ignorant of this battle between spirit and flesh-[the desire to think/live autonomously] - He also left us His Word as something to be obeyed as He obeyed The Father and fulfilled all of the Law. A person who learns to depend on the Voice of the Spirit within as Jesus did, may be in a country where there are no Bibles and still walk in obedience to what The Voice of GOD within him is directing him to do or not do and this has been proved by missionaries, etc, that have revisited those that they've led to Christ and found that even without discipleship, or Bibles, that these people had experienced "a Voice within" telling them to quit getting drunk and a number of other things that they had no way of knowing was either right or wrong and yet they report that they submitted to this "Voice within and obeyed".

I do not believe that The LORD has created us with No Freewill. We choose our thoughts and actions, minute by minute and we can minute by minute live autonomous by our souls/self/mind or we can "look up, listen and follow" as Jesus did. That is what He did and that is what He made available to us - to walk as He did - looking for the leading of His Indwelling Spirit within us, so that we can say as He did - "that the words that we speak and the acts that we do are Not From us but from The Father".

No glorying in SELF if we're living as He did while on earth, being our example of what as Creator He intended for His creation - to be one with GOD as He was/is.

Because He loved GOD 'The Father', He demonostrated that 'Love is obedience' to The Father - and if we haven't learned His Voice yet - we have our Father's letters to us that we can follow until we learn to not trust our own thoughts [trust in the flesh] and learn to Know His Voice and for our benefit, that "Voice" will never contradict His Word that He's left for us.
Complete child-like dependence of 'looking up' to the Father and waiting on His voice/mind and following through is how Jesus walked besides by what is written - in order to be our Example to 'follow'.

The law of the Spirit is Life, 'His Life', as He lived while on earth, and no one was ever so 'humble' as That Man that did whatever The Father told Him to do or say.

That's my understanding of His earthly Life and His Words to us. He was led by The Spirit and was meek and lowly of heart, as we would be if we weren't walking in our own flesh/understanding/desires that war against the spirit, but by His Spirit as He did in obedience to His Voice/leading - not autonomously as we do.
That's why He lived that life in front of us - as our Example.

"Perhaps you missed that part that you capitalized. The righteousness of the laws might be fulfilled IN us (by imputation), not fulfilled BY us (through the works of the law)."

Neither is the case. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us by the imparting of Christ's Spirit. The surrounding verses show this beyond any doubt.

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:11-14)

Furthermore: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:11-14)

"I tell you what, you keep determining your salvation by how you walk, and I will determine my salvation by whom I trust, then we can each see how it turns out in the end. "

That's fine, but this affects more than you and I. If that were not the case, I wouldn't be continuing this conversation. The scriptures given in my previous post show that our salvation is determined by how we walk and that trust in Christ means to submit to his authority as Lord/King. Let everyone who reads answer before God if this was proven by the scriptures (Isaiah 66:2).

Ginnyrose,

We are most definitely not saying the same thing. Joe is saying that our salvation is in no way determined by how we live and that trust in Christ is in no way related to obedience to him. I'm showing by the scriptures that these ideas are utterly contrary to God's word. Everyone must judge in the fear of God what God's word teaches in these eternally important issues.

White_Stone,

How did I do that? If I did, let me know specifically. I'll gladly repent if you can convince me how I twisted Joe's words.

Growingone

You talk in the abstract, let's deal in the concrete. I want you to go back to this and answer before we go forward.

"Do you ever buy goods made in China or other countries where workers wages are below poverty level? If you do you rob workers of their wages, and therefore are a thief. How about do you ever see an ad for something and consider that you might need it? Ah, then you are covetous and have broken number 10. Or what about the Lord's Day, have you ever done anything that caused another to work on this day (IE purchased anything, or played a game)? Then you have broken number 4. And on and on..."

The answer to these will be the evidence of your righteousness, and the 'determination' of your salvation by your own doctrine.

OJ

We are most definitely not saying the same thing. Joe is saying that our salvation is in no way determined by how we live and that trust in Christ is in no way related to obedience to him.

I agree that we DEFINITELY are not saying the same thing, and that it is mission critical, but you do skew what I have said. Salvation is indeed no way determined by how we live, but trust in Christ is RELATED to obedience to Him. Obedience does not always spring forth from trust, which is why Judas went forth to heal with the other disciples, but trust has its measure of obedience. The problem is that if obedience can come forth without trust, then obedience is no measure of salvation.

ETA, I assume you have read the Bible many times over, and need not be reminded of these, but in case not here is a little prooftexting for you.

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Mic 7:2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

OJ

JIG

That's why He lived that life in front of us - as our Example.

With all due respect, Christ is never intended to be our example, never has been, never will be. He is our Redeemer!

The example idea comes from the following and others like it:

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Do you see any who walk even as Christ walked? No. The verse is meant to humble the proud by setting up a standard higher than he can meet. The "ought" is biblical and serves dual purposes. First of all, if you say you abide in Christ you "ought" to walk even as He walked, but we find that none actually walk sinless as Christ walked. Therefore it sets up a perfect standard that none may boast.

Secondly, the ought gives the lowly something to strive after, though they know they can't attain it, yet they know that it is something they "ought" to pursue. When man makes a religion, he simply turns "oughts" into "musts".

OJ

Hi Joe,

I'll answer your concrete questions, but please answer mine too.

Buying goods made in China is not necessarily stealing. There is too little information to determine that. This is a commandment of men.

If I see an ad for something and consider I might need it that means nothing. Maybe I do need it (if it's food anyway). Let's say I say I see a luxury item and my heart becomes attached to it, then yes, I'd be covetous. And yes, I must repent and be cleansed because the Bible says: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesianns 5:5-6) And, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

The sabbath is part of the ceremonial law which was fulfilled in Christ and we are not bound to observe it. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17) The moral law of God is still in effect, as we are warned in the New Testament that liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, covetous, idolaters, etc will go to hell (Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, etc)

My questions for you: If a man trusts Christ for his salvation, but dies in unrepentant sin (let's say adultery) will that man be saved by his trust in Christ? (It's yes or no unless you believe a saved man would never die in sin, which if that's your teaching/belief do say so).

If a man makes a profession of faith in Christ one Sunday- but then on Monday robs a bank, visits a prostitute, and gets drunk- and you, knowing this see him the next Sunday and he asks if he's saved because he has "trusted Christ" even though he intends to continue doing these sins- what do you tell him?

Joe,

How is trust in Christ related to obedience to him? Perhaps I have skewed what you said. I look forward to your answer to this as well.

All the scriptures you gave our referring to our fallen nature in Adam. Not the new nature in Christ. Thus, though Paul says of those in Adam that there is none good, he would say later of Christians in his letter "And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another." (Romans 15:14)

Also, Isaiah says all we like sheep have gone astray, but Peter says "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For YE WERE as sheep going astray; but ARE NOW RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Peter 2:24-25)

Buying goods made in China is not necessarily stealing. There is too little information to determine that. This is a commandment of men.

Here is some information to help you determine that.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml

http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/06/0502/art1.html

“An average Chinese wage of $0.57 per hour -- or $104 per month -- is about 3 percent of the average U.S. manufacturing worker's wage, according to data collected by Banister.”

James 5:4-5 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine the reason you get things so cheap from China. The labour is fundamentally free. The Lord calls this fraud, which is a form of theft. If you buy, you take advantage of that and are guilty.

If I see an ad for something and consider I might need it that means nothing. Maybe I do need it (if it's food anyway). Let's say I say I see a luxury item and my heart becomes attached to it, then yes, I'd be covetous. And yes, I must repent and be cleansed because the Bible says: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesianns 5:5-6) And, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

Suppose you die in a car accident driving by a nice car that you have seen on the road that you have just coveted in your heart, but not had time to ‘go through the motions of your repentance’, where will you go? Heaven or Hell?

The sabbath is part of the ceremonial law which was fulfilled in Christ and we are not bound to observe it. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17) The moral law of God is still in effect, as we are warned in the New Testament that liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, covetous, idolaters, etc will go to hell (Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, etc)

To tell you the truth I expected this answer, but this is a normal ploy of those who command obedience. To them very little other than outward morality is considered sin. No love for a neighbour to have his needed rest in the Lord….

Here is a little more information on the Lords’ Day for you.

http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/fundamentally/fund4/fundD14.html

My questions for you: If a man trusts Christ for his salvation, but dies in unrepentant sin (let's say adultery) will that man be saved by his trust in Christ? (It's yes or no unless you believe a saved man would never die in sin, which if that's your teaching/belief do say so).

I am going to wait for your answer on the car accident above before I answer this. I don’t want to taint your response, but I will answer as soon as you clarify that point.

If a man makes a profession of faith in Christ one Sunday- but then on Monday robs a bank, visits a prostitute, and gets drunk- and you, knowing this see him the next Sunday and he asks if he's saved because he has "trusted Christ" even though he intends to continue doing these sins- what do you tell him?

I would tell him that his trust of Christ is equivalent to yours, they are both self-justifying (this is what you did with the Lord’s Day, the theft, and even the covetousness). I would then question whether he thought a self-justifying faith would save him.

OJ

Though it may not be intentional it is what we do when we look to evidence for proof of salvation. When we trust in Christ will we not surrender and in turn, turn away from sin? Ofcourse BUT this turning is not the basis of Salvation but on Christ alone who is our Salvation. The reason I turn from sin is gratitude that's it. No amount of turning will save me more or less because My Hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' Blood and HIS Righteousness.

This I believe is the point Old Joe is trying to make and many of you are greatly misunderstanding him. I have spoke with Old Joe about this personally, He loves Holiness but what he doesn't like is men trying to become holy through the own means, ie evidence or works. If you are in Christ works will flow out of you naturally as the Spring of Life flows in you but how fast or slow this spring flows doesn't determine our salvation.

The real matter is Are you trusting in Christ Jesus? If SO by Christ's atoning work you are saved by Grace. Christianity ISN'T about Morality, never has never will be, Its all about Christ and His work on the Cross and its the basis on Christ alone will we ever be moral people, not because we are so good and doing all the work but because Christ is working in Us through His atoning work on the Cross, you are either saved or your not saved, period.

Amen!!!

OJ

"Suppose you die in a car accident driving by a nice car that you have seen on the road that you have just coveted in your heart, but not had time to ‘go through the motions of your repentance’, where will you go? Heaven or Hell?"

If you die coveting a car you will go to hell. I've given a straightforward answer to your question. Please give a straightforward answer to mine about the man who dies in adultery. I know that God is merciful and patient however (2 Peter 3) and I see how in Revelation he even gave Jezebel the false prophetess space to repent over worse things.

"When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." (Ezekiel 18:26-30)

Edit: I should add that according to Ephesians 5:5 a covetous man is an idolater and that very passage says that idolaters have no inheritance in Christ's kingdom. Those who are idolaters are separated from God. "That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols." (Ezekiel 14:5) Does one estranged from God have any hope to be saved?

Jesus came not to destroy the prophets (Matthew 5:17) and his words confirm this.

"And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:10-13)

Regarding the sabbath Colossians 2:16-17 says to let no man judge you in it, so I will not deal with that any further.

Oh boy OJ, I sure haven't wanted to post anymore. Started to post to this last night but felt not to, so closed the reply window and got back off.
I 'think' you 'may' have misunderstood my post at about the middle of page 4, because you only quoted the last line and I understand that that's a cliche in some circles, to just ask ourselves WWJD? and try to replicate/emulate something or other of what we 'think' He would do.
The last line meant what the body of it was 'trying' to convey - that Jesus was our example of how to NOT depend on our own flesh/selves to follow GOD and His desires as He said, "follow Me" serveral times - but He showed us how it's done and I see it as "Dependency".

Well, if you have a chance to look at that less than perfect attempt to express something that's living and breathing to me, maybe down the road sometime --- I'd be grateful - Only because I don't want you to believe the opposite of what my less than perfect wording of what I feel of 'His' faithfulness, in [no confidence in the flesh] "walking in the Spirit" is.

GOD's Love & help to us all on this thread. Amen, and Amen.

mguldner wrote:

"Though it may not be intentional it is what we do when we look to evidence for proof of salvation. When we trust in Christ will we not surrender and in turn, turn away from sin? Ofcourse BUT this turning is not the basis of Salvation but on Christ alone who is our Salvation. The reason I turn from sin is gratitude that's it. No amount of turning will save me more or less because My Hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' Blood and HIS Righteousness.

This I believe is the point Old Joe is trying to make and many of you are greatly misunderstanding him. I have spoke with Old Joe about this personally, He loves Holiness but what he doesn't like is men trying to become holy through the own means, ie evidence or works. If you are in Christ works will flow out of you naturally as the Spring of Life flows in you but how fast or slow this spring flows doesn't determine our salvation.

The real matter is Are you trusting in Christ Jesus? If SO by Christ's atoning work you are saved by Grace. Christianity ISN'T about Morality, never has never will be, Its all about Christ and His work on the Cross and its the basis on Christ alone will we ever be moral people, not because we are so good and doing all the work but because Christ is working in Us through His atoning work on the Cross, you are either saved or your not saved, period."

Brother, the issue is, What does it mean to trust in Christ? Jesus made it clear in John 3:16-21 that forsaking evil deeds is necessary to come to the light and believe in him. And the proof of Christ working in us is the Holy Spirit in us and good fruit (John 7:37-39, parable of seed and sower). Jesus makes good what was once bad.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35) See also Romans 15:14

Joe does not seem to accept this. And this refusal to accept the necessity of good fruit by faith in Christ, like Oracio stated, just gives false hope to those who refuse to turn from sin and its pleasure and follow Christ as his disciples.

My original challenge to Joe was over his statement: "It has NOTHING to do with our evidence of salvation, which evidence is that we believe the record God bare of his Son; nor has it anything to do with our overcoming or persevering to hold on to, or show our salvation being held." "It" is clearly turning from sin in the context. That is serious error which will damn millions. If Joe wants to clarify that, I hope he'll do so.

If you die coveting a car you will go to hell.

That means that hell could be one sin and an untimely death away for you. Since you admit to not being sinless, an untimely death must be a frightening thought for you. Imagine yourself dying at Walmart on the Lord’s Day just as you are about defraud another labourer of their wages, it would be straight off to hell with you….

I've given a straightforward answer to your question. Please give a straightforward answer to mine about the man who dies in adultery.

Samson died in the act of self-murder and is commended of God in Heb 11. There is no evidence that Rahab “repented” of her lie or even of her harlotry, yet she is also commended of God in Heb 11. Therefore with just two examples we can conclude that it is possible for a man who dies in the very act of adultery, (including just a glance or thought for just a little longer than he should have) to go straight to heaven. It is not the way one ought to exit this world, and upon arrival he will suffer loss, however he himself shall be saved.

OJ

What Joe seems to clearly teach is that believers cannot keep His commandments at all, not even by His Power and Grace.

Yes, no believer can keep the depth of the commandments even by His power and grace. Sure you can give an appearance of doing it outwardly, like you and 'growingone' are doing, but once you actually figure out what the depth of the commandments are you soon learn what it takes to fulfill them cannot be done while still carrying around the body of this death. I can make an effort, even by His power and grace, but I cannot ever fulfill the depth of the commandments, because that requires perfection which when His power and grace are mixed with my fallen nature, I do not have in this lifetime. Even the very BEST efforts put forth will fall short of fulfilling the commandments.

For example look at the sum of the first table.

Matt 22:37-38 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

Tell me that you do this, tell me that you do not find in your heart that even the very least bit of it does not fulfill this, and I will tell you that not only have you broken the first commandment, but also the ninth.

OJ

The true believer is no longer ruled by sin as a way of life.

Neither is the moralist, so what evidence is this? Need I remind you of my Buddhist friend again, the one you so quickly ran away from answering up to even his way of life.

OJ

These are my final comments on this thread unless someone asks me a question about what I have written which I have not clearly explained already or Oracio, whose faithful answers I appreciate, or another, has not explained.

First of all, I want to clarify my comment about the man who dies coveting a car going to hell. We are on either the strait and narrow way that leads to life or the broad way that leads to destruction as Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14. The strait and narrow way is "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:24-26)

If we deny ourselves and take up the cross to follow Jesus we will repent by turning from sin (see 2 Corinthians 7:10-11) and walk in obedience to Jesus' words (Matthew 7:21-27). Those who don't hate and turn from sin are ungodly and unrighteous, and according to Romans 1:18 God's wrath is against all such. Jesus described the lake of fire as "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42)

Thus, it is our way of life and whether we are submitted to Christ's word (which fulfills God's moral law according to Matthew 5:17-18) or not that matters. Please read this carefully: We must choose who we will serve. One stray thought is not a conscience choice to rebel against Christ, nor is one quick glance that we wish we hadn't done soon afterward. A covetous man is one who is living for himself and his own lusts. If such a person dies like that, yes, they'll go to hell, just like the man who dies committing adultery or looking at pornography. Such are not repentant or else they would not be doing these wicked acts which take time to consent to and plan, unlike a quick covetous or adulterous thought which is not in itself choosing to forsake Christ and serve the devil. I do not say that a true disciple who loves Christ will go to hell for one little slip-up. God is sovereign and we know by scriptures like Romans 8:26-39 about God's care and protection for believers led by the Spirit and His gracious workings in their lives.

I myself am trusting completely in Christ's sacrifice on the cross to atone for my sins. Yet I also know that if I turn off the narrow way and go back to my old life of serving sin that his blood will not cleanse me and my hope of salvation would be a false one.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:16-22)

I look to Jesus only to keep me by his grace and I know that if I try to stand on my own I will fall. (Hebrews 4:15-16, 1 Corinthians 10:12-13) Yet I know that he is able to keep us from falling and cause us to bear good fruit if we abide in him (John 15:1-11, Jude 24 make this absolutely clear)

The one who is not in Christ, no matter how moral they may appear, is bound to sin, if nowhere else in the mind, which is where obedience or disobedience to God originates. This is not so of a true believer in Christ, as the following contrasts show.

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:5-9)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein IN TIME PAST ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Old_Joe has written "Therefore with just two examples we can conclude that it is possible for a man who dies in the very act of adultery, (including just a glance or thought for just a little longer than he should have) to go straight to heaven. It is not the way one ought to exit this world, and upon arrival he will suffer loss, however he himself shall be saved."

There you have it, all can see exactly where he stands. Will you side with him?I've showed the the stark contrast between forsaking the Lord by indulging in adultery/fornication/pornography and a mere stray thought earlier in this post and we all know the difference very well. So according to Joe an adulterer who dies in the very act can go to heaven. The scriptures say otherwise. Will you believe Joe or God?

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Hebrews 12:14-17)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?: BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8)

Old_Joe is a deceiver and a false teacher. So in obedience to the following scripture I will have no more contact with him on these forums. I have nothing against him personally, and I pray he will repent of his rebellion to God's word and thus to God Himself.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

And yes, the gospel of Christ does give us power to live a righteous life that demonstrates the power of God when truly believed. I have no more to say but to give this scripture. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation TO EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:16-17)

I myself am trusting completely in Christ's sacrifice on the cross to atone for my sins. Yet I also know that if I turn off the narrow way and go back to my old life of serving sin that his blood will not cleanse me and my hope of salvation would be a false one.

You are going to have to learn to keep your story straight in consecutive sentences. In the first you say you trust COMPLETELY in Christ’s sacrifice, then in the second you trust in your not turning from off the narrow way for your hope of salvation. This is cold, dead religion at its finest.

I've showed the the stark contrast between forsaking the Lord by indulging in adultery/fornication/pornography and a mere stray thought earlier in this post

There is no stark contrast according to this. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Old_Joe is a deceiver and a false teacher.

You have a bit more growing to do before you will be able to discern your error here, but in the meantime may the Lord judge between me and thee to the utmost severity of His judgment!

So in obedience to the following scripture I will have no more contact with him on these forums.

That is the best news I have heard all day! I am going to hold you to that.

OJ

Then how do you interpret clear Scriptures such as these:

Deuteronomy 5:10 "but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9“Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 1:5 And I said: “I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments,

Psalm 103:18 "To such as keep His covenant,And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

Daniel 9:4"And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments,

John 14:21"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 John 2:4"He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Revelation 12:17"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 14:12"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

I have never stated that we can keep the commandments perfectly all of the time as long as we are in this body.

I have already stated what it means to keep the commandments, you can go back and find it. Your interpretation would be interesting though, on one side you say you must keep the commandments, and on the other side you say you can't keep the commandments 'perfectly'.

Either you keep them or you don't which is it?

OJ

Oracio
If you want to go back...

I would ask you to go back

You have to go back a little further than this thread.

Here is another chance for you Oracio, to tell what great things you do that give evidence of your salvation

“…what do ye more than others?”

“I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.”

On the negative side: I don’t drink alcohol, I don’t use caffeine or other drugs, I don’t own a television, I don’t watch movies, I don’t take the Lord’s name in vain, I don’t kill people, I abstain from professional sports, I don’t frequent the establishments, I don't gamble etc.

Then on the positive side: I wake two hours early each day to meet with God through Bible study, meditation, and prayer, throughout the rest of the day, as much lieth in me, that communion with God continues, ending each day as I started. I work as an itinerant preacher of my own costs, never to have received a cent from anyone in the distribution of the gospel. I have but one wife, and only ever one wife. I give to the poor, and support another ministry. I have gone to work each day for decades supporting my family. I pay more for things so as not to defraud the worker of their wages. Out of love's sake I despise heaping more of my own sin on my Saviour and more…

(Note: Except for the last one I have a Buddhist friend who does all the rest.)

Yet for all this my righteousness counts as nothing more than filthy rags, I own myself to be vile as doth Job and count nothing but the Bible’s guarantee of my trust in Christ to be my righteousness, as my evidence of salvation.

So please, tell us what great things you do that give evidence of your salvation and your submission to the Lordship of Christ?

OJ

However tainted by sin it may be, there will be an element of His holiness and practical righteousness produced by Him if you are born again.

And this I have said from the start. 'However tainted it might be', even to the point of undiscernable, which is why it is no good evidence of salvation.

OJ

you seem to state....You seem to have denied...seem to...seem to

All of a sudden you go from proclaiming false teacher and heretic to seem to...seem to?

Anoint thine eyes with eyesalve that thou mayest see....

OJ

I think I have figured it out by the name of your blog.

You believe you are promoting PURE christian truth IE 100% accurate with no mixture of error in your blog (little do you know how many places you are off). Even Dove never made the claim of 100% purity. Likewise with righteousness and the keeping of the commmandments, you believe that keeping them by 90% or 50% or even 10% is actually "keeping them" in the sense of fulfilling the righteousness that they require. But guess what, even Dove at 99.99% can't say it is 100% pure. Even your effort of 99.99% does not fulfill the law of righteousness, and guess what, that .01% makes you guilty of ALL of the law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of ALL.

IE your inability to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart makes you as guilty as the murderer, the drunkard, the thief and even the sodomite, but worse than that, you do it in the light of scripture.

What then marks the difference between you and they?

OJ

Joe, I have been using the word "seem" all this time and all of a sudden you take offense at it.

Actually you were pretty sure of yourself earlier, the 'seem to' only popped up of late. I don't take offense though, it just builds the case of the character.

That's fine. We can end it here if you like. Take care.

Great, I am about to walk away from this place anyway.

OJ

A few more comments for you.

On your blog you write this:

"True faith in Christ has to do with placing all of our trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone for our salvation and not in ourselves or anything that we do."

And then come in here and argue against that very premise. When you say ALL, it truly means ALL in spite of any evidence for or against.

Then you have a statement of faith not written by you, but written by another, and then place articles contrary to that statement of faith in your blog. IE gotquestions definition of repentance is very different from Macarthur's. If you do not have the werewithal to write your own statement of faith, at least do not take credibility from one source and then deny it with another.

I realize in the world of fast food it is much easier to cut and paste, which is why most blogs are simply regurgitations of the thoughts of about the same 100 people worldwide, but if you believe something, you write it, don't cookbook it. There is no credibility to someone who does not write their own statement of faith.

OJ