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" Sinning Christianity "

S
sermonindex

Paul does not accept the views of " Sinning Christianity "
1 Thessalonians 2:10 You are witnesses, and so is God
( WoW ! God my Witness ) of how holy, righteous and blameless
we were among you who believe.
Test me, O Lord, and try me, Examine my heart and my mind. Ps 26:2
Go for it !
2 Corinthians 7:1 Let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and Spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
I urge you then:
So that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own Kingdom and Glory 1 Thess 2:12

S
sermonindex


Amen brother, there is not just forgiveness for sin but we can overcome sin also by the grace of Christ and the blood of Christ.

God lead us on this narrow way still!

J
JB1968

That's why He came: To save us from our sins. Hallelujah!

S
sermonindex

Paul does not accept the views of " Sinning Christianity "

And neither does he accept the views of a "sinless Christianity". Paul's accepted view is a sinning Christian with a sin-less desire (a desire to sin less), recognizing that being guilty of ANY is guilty of ALL. This is what causes hope to be rightly placed in Christ.


OJ

S
sermonindex

I absolutely agree with you brother 100% all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
But It’s a tragedy if at the Lord’s return some within the church were caught living in sin or lukewarmness
The Biblical standard is still to be blameless and holy.
We must be wholeheartedly committed to the Lord and separated from all that offends him. Lets not lower God’s holy standard to accommodate the trends of the society we live in. We need to call the church back to God’s standard of righteousness.
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify your through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Thess 5:23
The Church needs to be on the ALERT, and waiting for his return, for we do not know which day our Lord is coming. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones 1 Thessalonians 3:13 4:7
For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
So he who rejects this in not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. It is God’s will that you should be sanctified and live in a way that is holy and pleasing to him. Bless you brother.

J
JB1968

"He that committeth sin is of the devil."

The Biblical standard is still to be blameless and holy.

That's way it is by His grace.

Paul's accepted view is a sinning Christian with a sin-less desire

Scripture???

W
White_Stone

Dear soulwon,

Please take the time to read the thread at this link:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39929&forum=35&9

"Yes, but"

This is where the problem started.

The "yes but", or the "I agree, however" is the same thing that Serpent said to Eve, "Yes, but".

The agreement followed by a rebuttal weakens the agreement, unless the agreement has clauses or stipulations.

You replied to Old Joe

I absolutely agree with you brother 100% all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

**But** It’s a tragedy if at the Lord’s return some within the church were caught living in sin or lukewarmness

Had you studied the thread I linked perhaps you would have not phrased your post as you did. Lord willing, you will be allowed enough time and eyes to see.

white stone

J
JB1968

???

S
sermonindex

So are all you folks blameless then?

I totally agree that we should be striving for holiness and aiming at perfection, but we still all fall short and make many, many mistakes. This is not making an excuse for sin - it's just the way things are. It can take a long time to weed out those hidden ugly sinful attitudes (think of pride, selfishness etc.). If God marked our transgressions nobody would stand (Ps 130).

S
sermonindex

Someone posts Scripture on Holiness or perfection [the sane definition of 'perfection'] and THAT's where we get all the "Yes, But"s.

Do we REALLY need to keep hearing that we "can't be perfect"?

What if every Epistle kept repeating over and over - "Yeah, but, don't forget, you're going to mess up."

"Yeah, but, don't forget you ain't perfect"

"Yeah, but, don't forget - it's going to take a long long time before you're where you should be."

THINK ABOUT IT. What if The Word read like that.

In reality - what does The Word say?


Just a few to illustrate what it Does say -

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.


Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought


2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.


Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ


Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


Was watching the Yankees with my Dad earlier and thinking - What if the coach or trainers kept telling their pitchers, catchers and batters, etc - "You'll never get it right." - "Try as you will, you'll never make a hit." - "There's no way you can do what you learned from me, your trainer."


That's what all these "Yes, buts" are saying are saying to The Word of GOD/Jesus.


Do we REALLY need to continually hear that "we can't" - or do we need to go back to the Only Trainer's Manual that He left us and knock off the "Yes, but"s ?

S
sermonindex


Can we move on to Romans 8 now?

Not only do we have the ONE Who Did do it All right, living inside us but something that we seem to have forgotten --- that His Word is Equally as Powerful as His Spirit.

One in the same. The Word of GOD and The Spirit of GOD ...

and He tells me, "I can do ALL THINGS through Him that strengthens me and by His Word I'm made clean."


Yippee!

We even have bleachers full of fans cheering us on in Hebrews 11, besides the Angels. :)

What team potential we have to be the Overcomers He spoke about!

Go Team Go!!!

Y
YHLives

Self righteousness, desire for holiness as a way of seizing power and control (be it for rewards, pathological satisfaction or out of the fear of punishment) stinks as much as co-opting the themes of salvation for justification of personal satisfaction, rewards or out of indolence/inertia.

Unless we can frame the issues clearly and state clearly what are the underlying desires for all decisions, we are just playing word games. Please tell me how a Christian, if ever, can come to faith just from an argument won (without the work of the Holy Spirit).

Romans 8 starts with no condemnation and ends with no separation. Almost like a snapshot of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working joyously in the workshop , and we can almost hear how Paul was struggling to contain his excitement in articulating the grand themes of life in the spirit, heirdom with Christ, hope of glory and everlasting love of God.

Any attempt to appropriate either this text or others for the sake of justifying ones own desire for control and power is doing the Word of God, and with greater implication the work at Calvary, a great injustice.

S
sermonindex


Do we REALLY need to continually hear that "we can't"

ActuaLly, YES!

If you want to bring despair onto a believer, tell them to be perfect, and that they are expected to be so. In a matter of days most peoples hearts will testify that this is just not so.

When the Bible says to 'be ye perfect' it is telling us that to humble us, and to the first person who disagrees, I say then don't just flap the lips about perfection, but demonstrate it for us. When you keep failing sooner or later you'll get some sense in the matter.

OJ

S
sermonindex

Oh dear YHLives, there's the reason of Love. If we look at 1Corth13 and apply it to our Love for Him. Words can't do justice of why we would want to be "like Him". It's like wanting to crawl under His skin to be as close as possible to Him because we love Him so.

"SELF-righteousness, control or power" is just the opposite of what He is making us into. Laying aside who we were or are in "faith" that He'll work to fulfill His Word.

How can one explain the desire that comes from Love alone?

Friend, the more of Him that you see - all the things that you mentioned turn to less than dust.

Yes ~ "we can almost hear how Paul was struggling to contain his excitement in articulating the grand themes of life in the spirit, heirdom with Christ, hope of glory and everlasting love of God."

My excitement is that I don't have to stay in any pit of despair because of His promises to deal with those things that even I don't like about myself, nonetheless others but more importantly Him and why? - only because knowing that He being Creator GOD took our flesh upon Himself and suffered more than any man, so that we can be forgiven.

How can one compare forgiveness with anything "self-centered" when they know 'what' they've been forgiven of.
I who was the wretch of the earth can now call Him my Husband, Father, Friend ---- Unmerited, more than we can grasp.
That He would actually put His Spirit into something like me despite what I was and am. That only makes one fight tears. I can't understand how "self" and any desires For 'self' could enter the mind of a regenerated human before the very Face of GOD Almighty.
How could any of us truly experience Him and see Him as GOD and be before His throne and desire "power and control"? That was and is Lucifer's way. The rich men of the earth that want to be the Gods of this earth have Lucifer for their father and their desire for control and power comes from him.
What differentiates a truly regenerated person from them - if it isn't His Love that He's put into our hearts?
With Love comes desire. He puts His desires into our hearts and from there it is a very lively hope of disappearing into Him. To HIS GLORY ONLY, comes from the mouths of His True Bride. When our own thoughts, words and actions mean nothing unless He's in it. When we can see through His eyes - have His thoughts - when before our father was the devil. The transforming work He's done in His Own. How do we not see that and not Love Him for it. Being rescued besides.
Try to describe this Love. Only maybe the Song of Solomon or 1 Corth 13 begins to and HE is "the reward" at the end of our days. He is the enabler. Nothing that originates in our own mind pleases Him and shouldn't please us neither.
He wrote the Book that should occupy our thoughts and come out of our mouths, with His Own Spirit indwelling and enabling us. Our only cry is to go "deeper still" into Him or that He take us Home to Himself. That's the sole desire, Friend - to be in Him.

S
sermonindex


Hi Joe. No one who reads the entire New Testament and leans with all that they are on every single Word of it, will ever be in "despair".

Just take Him at His Word or we're guilty of adding or subtracting from Him, Himself - The Word of GOD.

GOD is not a liar. His Word is Equally as powerful as His Spirit -- and in His transforming work in us as well. If that were not so - He wouldn't have used The Word alone against Satan in the wilderness. His Word is all that we need after we've received the gift of His indwelling Spirit.


His Love.

G
gazzer

keep it in contex brothers and sisters

the bible does also say
confess your falts to one another
and pray for one another that you may be heald
for the efectual fevernt pray of a righeous man avals much

this scripture is saying that the righeous man or womman ,has faults that need confessing

so to be righeous is not have faults but be in a state of confession wrought by repentance

not sinless or faultless utter perfection

the lord said to all of us all pray in this manner ,FOR GIVE US OF OUR SINS as we forgive those who sin against

this pray is a continual prayer , we will allways pray


strive for perfection , would be aproprate to say

even after giving up drugs alcahole cigaretts

fornacation
adultry
idorarty
through the power of regenaration
and many other sins mentioned in the bible

i still sin every day ,and need to pray in like manner
for give me father of my trespasses

look at petter he sined after regenration
look at paull he sined as well

look at the argumant paull had with barnabas they sined


who here can honestly say you prayed enough to day ,being that we think we are perfect, how much should we pray

how much does a perfect christan fast ,,,three days a week or four

how much does the perfect christan read the word of god

6 hours a day


i heard john weasly if im not imperfect and wroung about this ,that he studied 12 hours a day the word of god

how much sleap should the sinless christan ..6 hours a night

how many people does the sinless christan witness to in one day to make him sinless
1 or 50 ,,,,,what are the posability


what does the super christan do in his day if he is utterly perfect like jesus

how many all night pray sessions did you do this week

iv never met this sinless christan

well iv met one

his name is jesus christ ..ian

who here can confess to us all that there are sinless and perfect

well if you you can confess that ,you have just lied

and need to confess your fault

iv sinned in any ways today

i didnt pray for long enough no where near enough ,,im imbarest to say only one hour today was prayer

i didnt read the word of god today only 5 minutes how sinfull is that

tho i listened to about 6 sermons of a w tozer

it should have been more like ten

i eat to much today ,,and i slepted to much to today


i sin every day but i hate it thats for sure

im not idolartus

and i dont believe i couvert materal things

i dont love money

i dont kill
or rape or muder

i dont perform othes

i didnt use a curse word for a long time

i dont steel

i love righeousness and i hate lawlesness

but i sin every day in word and in deed

and in thought
tho i renew my mind dayley

im gentil ,my wife said
kind
loving to people
but i dont love god that way i should
and i dont love god the he should be loved

im paicent but could be more paicent

and last of all im a shocking at spelling lol

and should take the time to correct my spelling ,,but i cant be botherd

i need god grace daily

and it is becasue of my faults that i desire more of him

and i dont want that to change

when i thought i was all that once upon a time ,, i didnt need god , why would i need god ,if im already all that ,and perfect

that was me befor regeneration ,, perfect and sinless
with a seared concence

dont want to feel like that again

a pray nobody will feel sinless amen and amen

S
sermonindex

Well first off, the Lords prayer was given to the disciples for them to pray in the kingdom in themselves, which happened at Pentecost. Even though they had been following the Lord, they were not under the control of the Holy Spirit till they were Spirit baptised, which made them holy - the Holy Spirit makes us holy.

So they were to ask for forgiveness at the time when they were still sinning. Walking in pertfection does not mean that one will never sin again - Peter fell from that when he sinned,but as there is no record of any other sin, we can safely say that he was restored.

Jesus saves us from our sins which means we are freed from them. It may lead to despair to hear that one is not in the kingdom if one still sins daily, but that despair is just what brings a man to Christ for cleansing and full salvation. Otherwise we are in danger and not in the ark and it is right to despair.

How much shall we pray if we are perfect?

We shall pray without ceasing. Everything we do will be under the control of Christ. If the LOrd calls them to fast or pray all night then they will but they will not be going around telling others about it.

How long should the perfect Christian read scripture a day? The living word is written on their hearts and it is not the amount of time spent but the ability to hear God and have it confirmed by scripture. There is no hard and fast rule. Some days it will be hours and another not much.

Lastly, the righteous need Him more than ever to keep them in that state of grace as it is through the power of God alone.

J
jimp

hi, it is all about grace,mercy and faith and not of yourself lest you can boast.Jesus paid it all... all to Him i owe...sin left a crimson stain and He washed it white as snow. He conquered sin for us on the cross so that we do not have to be sin consceous but to be looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. you who are always looking at sin in yourselves and others are denying what Jesus did on the cross. He already took the wrath of His Father for sin on Himself so that there is no more condemnation(krino-judgement)for those who are in Christ Jesus. it is all about Him and not about wee, little you or me.jimp

S
sermonindex

It may lead to despair to hear that one is not in the kingdom if one still sins daily, but that despair is just what brings a man to Christ for cleansing and full salvation.

So are you saying that anyone who sins daily is not saved? Can you honestly say you have not sinned in the last week whether in thought, word or deed? Also, how many times have people (I know I have) despaired and gone to Christ for full cleasning, only to find themselves tripping up again? I suppose God doesn't really want to save such people.

This is my problem with perfection theology. Instead of leading to joyful obedience in freedom it leads to condemnation and despair and is about as far from 'Good News' as anything can be.

S
sermonindex

If Jesus saves us from sin, then how can a man think he is saved if he is not free from it? Many believers do not go on to full salvation. The Lord keeps me free from sin but most of my life as a believer has been one of failure, until I fully trusted Him to save me from sin.

It does take more than just coming to Christ for cleansing, one has to be fully consecrated to Him, having made the decision to be finished with all things that are outside of His will and have faith that He will do the work.

It does lead to joyful obedience but the devil makes sure that this doctrine is misunderstood so that despair ensures. It is not the doctrine at fault.

G
gazzer

even after the baptisim of the holy spirit ,,,,krautfrau

the scripture shows ,peter sinning greiviously ,with teach herisasy


paul needed to rebuke him for it

it is absulutly unscriptural to say that after baptisim of the holy spirit ,they were sinless ,,wroung in otther words

paul also fell back in to the law , it shows him taking a vow and geting his head shaved

james also sinned ,by fellowship wth judadizers

can you confess that you have nevver sinned scinc you were baptized in the holy spirit ,and can you say you have no faults and are sinless and perfct

if so you are even greater then the apostals ,,and we may as well call you jesus

S
sermonindex

You cannot prove that the apostles were sinning daily, only that they fell on occasion. Can you give me the verses that show Paul and James sinned? A mistake is not a sin, but Peter did sin as he acted out of fear.

I did fall after baptism for quite a long period, going through some dark night when I lost the presence of God, but He restored me and no I do not sin now, I am in God`s will in everything I do. You will have to call many others Jesus too, the ones who have walked in holiness before me including those in the OT like Enoch and Job.

G
gazzer

i didnt say a was trying to prove that the apostals were comiting greivious sins daily ,that would only prove they were of the devil,for he who comits sin is of the devil

i thought we all knew the bible well enough here to no that paul also shrunk back and performed works of the law ,

youll find it if you look hard enough brother

the same with the jews which came from james who where insisting on circumisisium as well as faith in christ ,, paul spoke abut them,

a mistake shows the opasite of perfection

jesus didnt make mistakes he was perfect

we make mistakes ,and sin unintenionly

sin is interpreted as missing the mark ,mistakes are missing the mark

sin is not just adultry murder ,and those types of sins


ok so you ar saying that you can fall after baptisim of the holy spirit ,,so you wernt perfect ,and still arnt perfect ,,,, so after spirit baptisim you werent made perfect ,other wise you would not have been able to fall as you said ,,,,,,,,that was all i was saying brother

and you really agree with saying what you said

now you say you dont sin now ,,how am i to believe that stament when you have all ready fallen after you conversion , proving you wernt pefect ,, common scence say that is not true
and the bible calls me and you ,to confess our faults to one one another ,and pray for one one another ,for the efecual fevern pray of a righeous man avils much

showing that if you truly are a righeous man you will confess your faults ,, do you know the scripture im refuring to bro . james 5,16

the contex is comparing this one who confesses his faults and prayes for healing to the righeous man elijah,,

the bible show in the book of hebrews that the propherts who where righeous ,but they offered scarfices first for there own sins and then for israles sin ,,,,,,

all, the preists in the old testament gave offering for there own sins ,,,,,it is plainly writtern in hebrews

if you really want me to give you the chapter and the verses i will ,,,,,,somtimes its better we check it out our self ,,we nomarly see other things will we are looking for the scripture we want

brother that is why they need scarifices in the old testament for there sins ,,,hebrews also revels,that none of these scarfices made anyone perfect , the blood of bulls could not do it

please dont misundertsand me bro ,i dont believe there is salvation with out true repentance ,and the fruits of repentance must become evedent as must the fruit of the spirit ,,,one must become a new creation in jesus christ ,old things must pass away all things must become new ,, we must live in the spirit ,and crusafie the flesh ,it must happen,, our righeousness must excede that of the pharises,,we must be born again we must bare good fruit

G
gazzer

some people say that afer true conversion one can become absaluty perfect and sinless ,and that is there definition of perfect ,,,,,,,,,if you dont mean that ,then im sorry i said any thing ,,becasue my post was aimed toward ones who cofess sinlessnes after conversion ,,

maby i a misunderstod what you ment ,,is that what you are saying

S
sermonindex

gazzer

I was not perfected at conversion, it happened quite a few years after.

Paul circumsized Timothy too during that period of changeover where God tolerated the continuance of the Jewish law, it was not a sin so long as they knew that salvation came through Christ. He may not have sacrificed, we cannot know. To enlist an act which would remove prejudice would be actually wise under the circumstaces.

However, it may be that he did sin as he had fallen from his position of being led entirely by the Holy Spirit, which is the position of those who have been entirely sanctified, as he had decided to ignore the warnings of not going to Jerusalem which the Holy Spirit had given, but which Paul evidently thought were coming from man. He was arrested during a period where he was much needed which could not have been Gods will for him.

So perhaps he fell in with a mistaken idea the others had because he was not walking in fullness. They could all have fallen into sin at that point, who knows.

One can fall into sin when perfect, as the angels and Adam showed. We are not expected to have perfect minds, they still suffer from the effects of the fall and we can make an error of judgement which is the type of mistake Wesley talks about. Sin however comes from a wrong attitude of heart and from not loving the Lord our God with the whole heart and our fellow man as ourselves. So man can have the right attitude but make an error from not having all of the information to make a sound judgement. We do not sin unintentionally - it all comes from what is in the heart and we don`t know what is there but a sin will show it even if it takes us by surprise. If we have the new heart, then that does not happen anymore.

The scriptures calls certain men perfect in the OT and they were not priests, offering or sin apart from Job who offered fro his sons.

By the way I am a sis.

J
jimp

dear krautfrau,your post starts out with i ... Jesus said that there was none good,no not one.salvation is all about being born from above. you have nothing to do with being born.and you have nothing to do with holding on to your salvation...it is all Grace and the finished work of Jesus. if Jesus said that noone is good than surely noone is perfect except for Jesus Himself.we are holy because He is holy...we are perfect because He is perfect.jimp

S
sermonindex

I agree - He is my sanctification. He does not half do anything - He can perfect us in an instant because it is Him doing it and not us.

J
JB1968

Many misunderstand what perfection is. There are different kinds of perfection. There is absolute perfection, which God alone has. There is adamic perfection, which Adam had. We don't even have that. Could you name all the animals? There is angelic perfection. We are not there yet. And then there is Christian perfection. This is loving God with all our heart and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus talked about this. Wesley taught this, as well as those teachers of holines, such as J. A. Wood, A. M. Hills, H. Orton Wiley, etc. Paul talked about perfection in Phillippians. This perfection is not absolute, but a pure relationship with God, free from sin and filled with the Spirit. This does mean a person could not sin, but that they have the victory over sin. A complete and full salvation. Can a person fall after sanctification? Yes, but they don't have too.

G
gazzer

yea i agree with that type of regerate perfection ,which still falls short of christs sinlessness pefection

keith daniel once said its righeousness imputed ,and righousness imparted ,,,,yea justafication and sanctfication ,are joined gifts and cant be seperated

A
ArtB

To my fellow wannabe SINLESS Christians.

By your logic, A rock never sins, therefore it must be perfect and most pleasing to God.

However, there is a ROCK that never sinned, Jesus our Lord, and against the rules of the Mosaic Covenant, He was badly beaten and crucified on a tree, THE PERFECT LAMB OF GOD WHOSE SHED ATONING BLOOD WASHES AWAY ALL OUR SINS FOR ALL TIME TO ALL WHO ACCEPT THIS GIFT BY FAITH, THEREBY BELIEVING GOD. [Yes, salvation IS this easy]And upon Jesus death, the heavy and sturdy curtain in the Temple that separated God from man was torn apart, and at that moment of Jesus death, ALL that God promised about our salvation was fulfilled by and in Jesus, and God the Father Annihilated the Mosaic Covenant.

Keep in mind that God made only one bilateral Covenant with the peoples, the Mosaic Covenant. All of God's other Covenants were unilateral.

Zec 11:10-13

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my COVENANT which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT MAGNIFICENT PRICE AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. NASU

AS FOR THE NONSENSE OF US BEING SINLESS:

1 John 1-10

What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life — and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us — what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN8.

8. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.

9. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

10. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

NASU

As for me, I am cleansed of all my sins by the blood of Jesus, the perfect Paschal Lamb, whose innocent blood shed on the cross washes away all my sins for all time. My mind is not focused on my sins nor on becoming sinless, but on the gift of eternal life, my daily fellowship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit whom works in me to accomplish God's transformation of my nature to do the very good God created all of us to do. This is God's work in me. I simply stay in fellowship with Him daily and am grateful for all He is doing in me. I have faith that He will accomplish His purpose in me. When the curtain separated in the Temple, that gave us a direct fellowship with God, as if we were back in the Garden of Eden and walking with Him daily.

And I know I will not be sinless in my current life on Earth, and there are many who can testify to this fact.
But I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in me will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

My joy is complete.


A
a-servant


"AS FOR THE NONSENSE OF US BEING SINLESS"

that sounds like you are speaking your HEART AND REALITY - but not that of those that are born of God ("born again"), you left out the part that contrasts them with the sinners and talks about them:


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


I know 1Jn 3:9 is very black and white, that's why it's ignored by those that reason in their own mind it could not possibly be true. Well, maybe the problem is one of the mind and not of the scripture.

S
sermonindex


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.


Joh 14:23,24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Mat 7:18-27 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, *and doeth them*, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and *doeth them not*, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.


Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


1Jn 5:2,3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of *eternal salvation unto all them that obey him*


S
sermonindex

So the real question is what is true obedience to God?

Is it keeping laws and rules? I do not think so,

It is impossible for any law or rule to make you righteous, holy or acceptable to God in the slightest way.

1 John 3:5-11, "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

True obedience ONLY comes from the LIFE OF CHRIST within you. When we are born again you receive His very Life and we became a whole different being. We were given a new heart and we become a partaker of His Divine nature. Our old heart was completely destroyed and replaced with a pure heart full of HIS LOVE!!!

How do you obey God? The ONLY true answer is - you must abide and rest in Christ and what God has already accomplished for you and in you.

Check out these passages that refer to the New Covenant. We can only experience true obedience to God by receiving, enjoying, resting and trusting in Christ's Life within us.

Jer. 32:39-40, "I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good, and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me."

Ezek. 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. Moreover I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances."

Deut. 30:6, "And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou may live."

Jer. 24:7, "And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart."

Jer. 31:31-34, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Ezek. 11:19-20 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

Heb. 8:8b, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people."


S
sermonindex

I don`t know whether I can be bothered or not to reply to ArtB, after his gross misinterpretation of 1John

The key to the passage is

9. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

From all unrighteousness from all unrighteousness from all.....repeat after me.

W
White_Stone

Dear krautfrau,

The part you are focusing on is

HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

Please, read the 4 words that precede that statement.

IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS

If you confess sins there must be sins to confess. That is the point this misunderstanding hangs upon.

None are sinless - except the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Granted He forgives our sins, if we confess BUT that does not stop us from sinning again. We need daily to ask forgiveness for the sins we still commit. We may have every intention of not sinning but the flesh does it regardless of our intentions. The Apostle Paul clearly states that even about himself. Paraphrased : That which I would, I do not. . . (look it up for the whole quote)

Just because we are given His Holy Spirit when we accept Him as Lord and Saviour does not mean by our attitude and actions we do not drive the Holy Ghost out. We must ask forgivness and welcome Him back into our hearts.

If you say you do not sin you are making God a to have lied, He said in His Holy Word that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. That does not mean only before you were saved but for your entire walk upon this Earth.

This is not said in ill will I hold the highest hope for you and only wish your salvation. How sweet it will be to find you in Heaven.

Kind regards,
white stone

A
a-servant

Quote: "What is true obedience to God?
So the real question is what is true obedience to God?
Is it keeping laws and rules? I do not think so,"

Well it depends if it's old covenant performance in the flesh or action that follows because it's written on your heart.

Hebrews 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

2 Corinthians 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

IF God's laws are written on your heart, you could not possibly deny your heart? And reason against it?

Neither would you be able to argue you do it for any other reason than love, alone the suggestion you want to gain anything by not breaking the law will sound strange to you. If you live in Romans 8 AND obey the Holy Spirit you stop sinning, that you keep the law is just a "by-product" at the same time. And yes, not by our own power, simply in true freedom in Christ by The Holy Spirit and our "yielding" or obedience.


Quote: "We may have every intention of not sinning but the flesh does it regardless of our intentions. The Apostle Paul clearly states that even about himself. Paraphrased : That which I would, I do not. ."


No, the flesh does not do it regardless, you decide in your heart to give in to temptation or not. Sin starts in the heart, that is the battle ground. When you truly have the Holy Spirit living in you, you do have power to say no to temptation, you rebuke your thoughts. Paul is talking about himself BEFORE he got converted in Romans 6. After he got converted he writes about what the life in Spirit is like in Romans 8. Now we do have 2 options, either we give in to the flesh and die, or decide to go with the Spirt and live. That's the "IF" option.

So it's about obedience, and who we follow. That is our master, and the resulting action tells who we truly are, and what the consequence of our action will be. That's why all these warnings to not be deceived are written, to check ourselves and look at that tree what kind of fruit it really produces. Look at that, not at the statement of intention. Yes it's very black and white so that even a child can understand it. And us as well even after reading 3000 pages of human doctrine that tries to convince us that it really means something different than it says.

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:20-22

Jesus will save His people from their sins. That's the truth for us now !


S
sermonindex

Dear white stone

You are correct that there are none righteous not one, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God but thank God Jesus came to save us from sin and His blood washes us clean, cleansed from ALL sin however, the new believer does not know that he now has the power of God in him and he can through faith, trust that God will provide a way out of ALL temptation and KEEP him from falling Jude 23 and so he listens to the devil who says that we cannot stop sinning in this life. That is, unless he comes across holiness doctine and has his eyes opened by God and then exercises faith in the keeping power of Christ and finds that sin no longer lives within him.

Before this happens he must come to Christ again and repent of not living in his full salvation and then he will know the cleansing from all sin once again as shown in 1 John 1 but this time he has faith in the righteouness of Christ and lives by that instead of struggling in the flesh.

Scripture is full of entreaties for the believer to come and return to his first love and walk in the Spirit which he can only do occasionally instead of dwelling in the temple no more to go out.

The scriptures say that he who sins is of the devil and we are to be holy AS He is holy.

You are correct that you are not going to the same place as me, heaven is for the saints ie those who do not sin.

M
mguldner

This really isn't an issue for me, I'm already dead. I died in my sins long ago, it's Christ turn to work in and through me, but me I do nothing because I'm dead.

A
ArtB

Context is very important.

Jesus-is-GOD on 2011/7/11 1:54:47 wrote: "Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments."

And, 'Jesus-is-God', What are these commandments of Jesus?

And before you answer this question, keep in mind Heb 7:11-22

Heb 7:11-22

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a CHANGE OF LAW also.

13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

Quite obviously from the above, the commandments of Jesus can not be any of the 613 laws of the Mosaic Covenant.

And check out Zec: 11: 7-13, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant when Jesus died on the cross.And at the moment of Jesus death, The New Covenant was established. What is the New Covenant? It is that anyone can be saved simply by accepting the atoning Blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross unto His death, Jesus, the perfect paschal Lamb, whose blood has washed all sins of all people who accept this Blood of Jesus as the covering for all our sins for all time (i.e. past, present, and future). This is the gift of eternal life and renewal of our Fellowship with God via the indwelling Holy Spirit, by whom God works in us to transform our very nature so that we may naturally do the good that God created us to do. THIS IS OUR FAITH AND SALVATION.

But if anyone puts their faith into keeping the Mosaic Laws as a requirement of their eternal salvation by choosing to remain under the Mosaic Covenant, and such a person disqualifies his or her self from being saved by Jesus via the New Covenant.

The 613 Laws of the Mosaic Covenant include:

1. You shall pay all your hired workers on the same day they perform their work.

2. If someone dies on your property, you must take a heifer, slit its' throat, and shed its' blood on the spot where the person died in order to redeem their blood.

3. If two or more of you catch a male and female committing adultery, you must stone them to death, and then hang them on a tree that all may see their corpses.

Who here is willing to do this and much more as required by the Mosaic Laws?

Even Moses was disqualified from entering the promised land because he violated the very covenant that bears His name.

The only person to keep the whole Mosaic Covenant throughout His life is Jesus. And upon His death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant and established the new Covenant of Jesus Christ.

So I ask a 2nd time, If you are a Christian under the new Laws of the New Covenant, What are these Laws?

A
ArtB


Here another verse that many misconstrue.

Now let's take a look at Phil 2 v 12 & 13 in its’ entirety: "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose".

This is the verse I’m always given by those who claim that any Christian can lose their salvation if they are not careful to keep the Mosaic Laws, and they often quote it by starting with “work out” and stop at “trembling”. The phrase “fear and trembling” in the Greek is a poetic expression, phobou kai tromou, that Paul uses elsewhere to highlight the inner attitude one should have toward their master. We know from what is written before this in Philippians prior to these two versus that Paul is NOT telling them to be fearful, for Paul has emphasized that he wants their love for each other to abound.

When we read Philippians 2: 12-13, we should keep in mind that Paul wrote in his opening comments Phil 1:6 of his confidence "that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." This is a factual Theological Statement. It is factual because anything that God is doing will get done, no ifs', ands, or buts. Now, it must be so that whatever Paul writes after this, it can not be in contradiction to this statement. If God had begun this good work in any of them and then even one of them lost their salvation, God will have failed to have carried this good work through to completion. And please note it is God doing the work in us via the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Paul goes on to mention in Chapter 3 that there are those who God has not saved, and some of these have joined themselves to the Christian Church, but they are not saved for they are enemies of Christ. They did not lose their salvation, they never had it.

In Chapter 4 Paul tells the Christians in Philippi that they have peace with God, fellowship with God, and to open themselves to further transformation by God by dwelling on “whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise.” Then Paul praises their generosity and again tells them that God is working for them: “And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever.” And yes, I'm excited and thankful for what God is doing in me.

So what could Paul possible mean by "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose"?

Taking the letter as a whole, Paul is praising the Philippians and assuring them of their salvation, of whom he is confident and wants them to be also, having pointed out that that God, who is working in them, will carry His work in them through to completion. They have always obeyed, even in Paul’s absence. Paul makes it very clear that both he and God are very pleased with them. Paul can’t possible be saying that despite all this good stuff he wrote about them, that they better work out their salvation for they are in danger of still losing it. Such a conclusion would be an absurdity.

The Greek word "katergazomai" which has been translated “work out” but has several possible meanings: To Finish off, To Work, To Effect, To Achieve. Which one should be used? The ‘work’ God is doing is the Greek word ‘energeo’ meaning active and efficient work (in us who believe and walk by faith). This is where our modern word energy comes from.

It is my view that put into the context of the text, God is performing an active and efficient work in us that guarantees our salvation, and that Paul in Ph 2: 12-13 is exhorting us to put into effect the changes God is making in us, put them into use and practice (i.e. actualization). There is nothing here about any possibility of any real Christian losing their salvation.

S
sermonindex

Art, no matter where on this forum that you look, you will never find a post of mine where I have ever stated nor even hinted that we're to keep the O.T. 613 laws.

The New Testament can be understood by a child and should be read that way. Whatever Jesus said, He meant, and He wrote the whole of it. I trust John 16:13 to open His Word to us.

Thanks anyway.

A
ArtB

krautfrau on 2011/7/11 8:16:50

I don`t know whether I can be bothered or not to reply to ArtB, after his gross misinterpretation of 1John

The key to the passage is

9. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

From all unrighteousness from all unrighteousness from all.....repeat after me.

Yes, when we confess our sins, verse 1:9 informs us "HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." That is His work in us, not our work.

And the verses before and after informs us that as long as we live, we will commit sins:

1 Jn 1:8, 1:10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. ... 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. NASU

We are cleansed from all unrighteousness, not by works of the Mosaic Laws, we are cleansed of our sins for all time by the atoning blood of the perfect Pascal Lamb, Jesus blood that was shed on the cross. This is God's gift to all who accept Jesus blood as atonement of all their sins. No one is saved because they stopped sinning.

Jn 3:14-18
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU


Thus we are saved, not by our works or perfection, but by the works and perfection of our Paschal Lamb - Jesus.

And look at the simile John writes between How easy it is to be saved through Jesus, as equal to being saved from death from snake bites simply by just looking at the serpent staff that Moses lifting up for all to see.

All those who simply looked at Moses Serpent Staff that Moses held up for all to see, were healed and did not die. All those who lacked faith by not looking at the serpent staff that Moses holding up, perished. This is how easy it is to be a Christian, just accept Jesus shed blood as atonement of all our sins for time, and know that you will have eternal life and be in fellowship with God, Father - Son - and Holy Spirit.

I Love God, I trust God, And I know for sure that what Paul wrote in Romans 8:28-30 is a certainty:

Ro 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. NASU

And I thank God for what HE has done for me. A true glorious gift that I could not earn by my own efforts.

I know I will sin as long as I live in this body on this planet. And apparently, you all, and with keen insight, know this about me too.

Walking to the subway that will take me home from the College I was attending, I past by a Church which had a message board outdoors. It read:

"Holiness is not the absence of sin in our life, but the presence of God in our life."

A pebble never sins, nor is it Holy.

S
sermonindex

You are correct that you are not going to the same place as me, heaven is for the saints ie those who do not sin.

Yikes...

A
ArtB

by Jesus-is-GOD on 2011/7/12 21:48:41

"Art, no matter where on this forum that you look, you will never find a post of mine where I have ever stated nor even hinted that we're to keep the O.T. 613 laws."

But that is what Jesus was teaching His fellow Jews when He spoke publicly. That is the most important role of any rabbi.

With the four Gospels, I am not rejecting them because Jesus was only allowed to reach out to His fellow Jews under the Mosaic Laws. There are great gems that Jesus spoke, that would eventually have great meaning under the New Covenant that gets established upon His resurrection.

"The New Testament can be understood by a child and should be read that way. Whatever Jesus said, He meant, and He wrote the whole of it. I trust John 16:13 to open His Word to us."

And I do too.

Note that Jesus is with His 12 disciples and revealing to them what is about to happen. His public ministry to His fellow Jews under the Mosaic Covenant has come to an end, He is about to be betrayed, be arrested, and be beaten severely and put to death on a cross. And in privacy He speaks more directly with His inner circle as what is about to happen in the weeks to come, including the role of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus rises from the dead, for the first time He speaks plainly to them about the New Covenant and reveals the meaning of many OT Scriptures with regard to the establishment of the New Covenant and who He really is and what he accomplished on the cross.

I have a question for you, Hebrews clearly states that the Mosaic Laws were worthless and useless in that it could not save anyone. That Jesus is a Priest, not of the order of Levi, but of the far superior everlasting priesthood of Melchizedek, and that where there is a change of Priesthoods, there is also a change of law. Do you know what the Laws of the New Covenant are?

S
sermonindex

Art, you can believe that Jesus was Only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels if you wish [which I don't believe but anyways] - yet "obedience" is in Every Epistle thereafter - plus the Revelation.


I shouldn't have to post Scripture to you but I feel I need to, but not too much and then I would love if you'd consider having this discussion with someone other than me here because I truly am wondering what New Testament you're reading from, if you don't see our part in this Two-Way co-operative fellowship/relationship we have with The LORD.
Edit to add: I meant to also say that "Scripture never cancels out Scripture" nor does "Scripture ever contradict Scripture" and sticking with the N.T. with those sayings. Thanks!


OK, just a Very few - "N.T. Commands" -

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


EPHESIANS 4


COLOSSIANS 3

1Th 4:1-8 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: that no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.


1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


1Jn 2:4,5 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of
*eternal salvation unto all them that obey him*

A
ArtB

Reply to Jesus is God

John 14: 15, 21, 23-24, The Last Supper, Jesus public ministry has come to an end, Jesus is referring to 'my Commandments' those of the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:19, 12:50, Mark 3:35, Luke 8:21, Luke 11:28, 1Jn 5:2,3, are directed to His fellow Jews, teaching them to keep the Mosaic Covenant.

Matthew 25:41, Mat 7:18-27, These scriptures are warnings against callousness and selfishness, addressed to His fellow Jews.

Heb 5:8,9 Paul speaking of the New Covenant of being obedient to the New Law of the New Covenant.

A
ArtB

Jesus is God, There are different Commandments for the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Thee OT Commandments we must keep to be saved and have Eternal life. The NT Commandments are Laws whereby God keeps us.

S
sermonindex


I'll wait for your interpretation of all of the others and those that I didn't post like -

1Co 6:9, 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

and

Gal 5:19 -21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


P.S. this is the last time I'm going to say that I do not believe that anyone on this thread is 'sinless'.

"Yikes" is right, but Art, there are commands in the Epistles and the Revelation.

S
sermonindex

ArtB wrote: Jesus is God, There are different Commandments for the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Thee OT Commandments we must keep to be saved and have Eternal life. The NT Commandments are Laws whereby God keeps us.

If you don't see the moral laws in the N.T. as ones that need to be kept - in that, one cannot live in a lifestyle of the sins mentioned in the above post and inherit the kingdom - I don't know what else to say.

But would ask you - what are these 'plural' commandments to you?

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1Pe 1:13-16 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written,
Be ye holy; for I am holy.

M
mguldner

This thread officially boggles me mind. :)

S
sermonindex

:)

A
a-servant

I think we need someone that preaches a clear perspective on this one major issue of conversion to understand why some people have this wild understanding of what sin is, what born-again means and what obedience is.


The American Church needs to Repent

4 short Audio Sermons

http://www.holylivingnow.com/sermons/audio-sermons.html

J
jimp

hi,are you ready for some heresy? i believe that Jesus took away the total penalty of sin when He bore the wrath of Godon Himself for us... i also believe and have seen a great deal of evidence that your sins will find you out.a man who overeats gets fat and has health problems and joint problems.a drunk will lose job after job and his family. a liar will not be successful over the long haul because noone will trust what he says etc.i live and minister in a dorm of a bible college and have seen a staff member who was female backslide for a month and lost her job, her children were taken from her, arrested,evicted.she is now back in another church .i have a lifetime of such stories that i have seen.none of these things are as powerful as the Blood of the Lamb or the Love of Jesus or His mercies that are new every morning. our only part is to realize that we are goners without Christ and thereby turn the rule of our lives over to Him. it is not of works lest any could boast of anything save Him.jimp

S
sermonindex


I truly believe we need to ramp these definitions up to their Apostlic definitions.

"Sin" means - "to miss the mark".

The "Mark" is - the very Image of Christ.

"as He is in the world"

Being led by His Spirit goes beyond putting away outward sins and bad thoughts, but actually be led by His Spirit as He was while He was on earth.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."


Romans 8 is speaking of "being led by the Spirit" as Jesus was while on earth. That's no confidence in the flesh but a looking up to GOD to lead us by His Spirit, moment by moment.

We should be beyond "living for self" by now and walking in the spirit - doing what He leads us to think and do. "and greater works shall you do" He said.

If we can't get past these every day "sins" or those things that we 'think' are "sins" and not come to the realization that He needs us to be utterly and totally dependent on His Voice and His Word equally, we'll never be what He is in this world.

We should have been done with immorality by now and living for ourselves and should be the sheep that hear His Voice and follow.
He may wake us up in the middle of the night to pray for someone or lead us to visit a certain Nursing Home or person and not just occasionally - but THIS should be "the Normal Christian Life".

We shouldn't even be debating whether we're still "sinning" or not but should be encouraging one another to walk as He walked - as a child dependent on the Father for our very thoughts, words and next action. As He is in the world, so are we. He said He was the Light of the world and then said that 'we' are the light of the world. That the works that He did, we would do also.

The only thing that keeps us from listening to our Shepherd's voice that's trying to lead us to do HIS works on earth by His Spirit, is that we live for ourselves and do what we think is the good thing to do, now and then.

If we understood our own helplessness in our own flesh to obey or follow Him, then we'd press in hard to learn His Voice and His Word and not depend on our own thoughts but seek Him to guide, lead, direct and fill our thoughts with all that He wants to say to us and through us.

So sin is much more than just some outward action of immorality. It's missing the mark of His Image. The Image of Who He was while here on earth. A totally dependent child He was, not speaking or acting unless He got the words from the Father through the Spirit and only acted on what He heard.

That we still need to discuss "sins" of the flesh is rather pitiful when we have all that He had while He was on earth and told us that now we have all the fulness of GOD and only asked that we become dependent like a child, waiting for His leading, moment by moment as The first born Son did.

All confidence in the flesh goes out the window when your ears are staying open for the Shepherd to speak to give you direction of what to do for Him - to do what He wants done in this world. Saved to serve - but not in the flesh - but by total dependence on His Voice/Spirit/Leading.
We need only to do as He did - "Look up and ask GOD" - What would you have me to do now Father? To think? To know? To do? Praying this way without ceasing.

But we're 'self' centered and that is the root of all of our "missing the mark of His Image".

To each of the Churches in the Revelation, Jesus says, "I know your works".

S
sermonindex

So sin is much more than just some outward action of immorality.

Amen J-i-G.

Sin is the result of living according to the old nature, which will even display religious zeal in its self seeking. Jesus provided the way out of the flesh but we are to die to it with Him. If we are dead then sin cannot live in us because the new nature is one that is the same as the one Christ displayed, in that every thing He did every thought He had was according to the Fathers will, and not the up and down, sinning and repenting lifestyle that is proposed by some.

There will be a mixture of the two natures so long as believers do not understnad what they have been delivered from and a man who sins will die, spiritually and be out of touch with the living God, relying on a book and the letter which does not give life ad so cannot pass on to others true living spirit filled religion of the heart. He can only be a legalist or an antinomian.

To put on the new means exactly that - a new creation is not the old one which sins. Even the devil believes. The work which follows the new creation is one that we saw displayed by the Son of God. If we fall short then we are out side the kingdom.

There are a few verses which seem to say that we cannot stop sinning but they are taken out of context. We are to be little Christs not through our own efforts in obeying commandments from the old or the new. Christ came not to annull the law but to fulfill it and if we have the new nature, the one which is the same as Christs, then we will fulfill it too in the same manner.

It will be our nature to hear the voice of God within and to obey that. This is the new covenant and if anyone thinks they are obeying ad their lives contradict scripture especially the sermon on the mount then they are outside the kingdom.

J
jimp

hi, paul , at the end of his ministry , called himself the cheifest of sinners. Jesus, after being called good, said why call Me good for there is none good.isaiah,the great prophet,saw the Lord and fell on his face before Him. john the beloved,part of the inner circle,fellon his face as if dead when he saw the Lord on the isle of exile.and we have on sermon index those who walk upright in perfection.wow

S
sermonindex

and we have on sermon index those who walk upright in perfection.wow

I wonder if their spouses would agree that they do!

S
sermonindex



and we have on sermon index those who walk upright in perfection.wow

I wonder if their spouses would agree that they do!

I vote that as comment of the week!

OJ

S
sermonindex

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Th 4:1-8 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: that no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

J
JB1968

Here's a biblical definition of sin:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

C
coffee

Being a Mother of 2 daughters and a Grandmother of 3 under the age of 11..I have often thought on this issue, of this thread and others like it. Trying to understand often boggles this mind as well.

When one of my grandchildren out right does something that I have told them not to ...then comes to me after being caught or being told on ..and says I'm sorry, I will never do it again.. As the other grandchild comes to me and says Grandma I didn't do it.. I was good!
Which child do I love more? Which child has a special place in my heart...the one who sinned and repented or the non-guilty one and was so pleased about it.

Then again looking back in life and pondering this question again ...the heart, which one should we be more concerned with as time goes on...

Coming back to this time and time again ...We look at the outward and God searches and trys the heart..testing us to see whats in our hearts...again saying Jesus we trust You to keep that which has been committed unto you...molding us day by day into your image. Keep our heart

Father, please keep us from sinning today ...with what we say, do or think, Keep our hearts pure, for it is a wicked thing who can know it, but You. That You get all the Glory today and forever.

Wanted to add to this post A message that helped me tremendously ....

Chopping Wood For Father... by Carter Conlon


IMHO your sister,
coffee

S
sermonindex

Sis Coffee, I believe the major problem on this thread and possibly on others is that many do not read all the posts before they comment.

On an earlier page I said that I do not believe that anyone posting to this thread is "sinless" but that was ignored or unread.

But you are right - no man can glory in his flesh if he is dependent solely on being led by His Spirit and His Word.
He said: "Without Me you can do nothing." and He never asks us to do anything that He will not enable us to do.
It's not Him that fails us.


Appreciated your post.

S
sermonindex

I wonder if their spouses would agree that they do!

Plenty of spouses heard their partners claim holiness and did not dispute it in past times when the real holiness was seen not today when many claim it because they have moved the goalpost of perfection to call it perfect love.

J
jimp

hi, i spent 2 years of my life very close to len ravenhill who believed in personal holiness and i am submitted to Jesus for this condition to avail itself in my life but saying that i know that my performance has nothing to do with my salvation.jimp

S
sermonindex


This is a sample of the Leonard Ravenhill who I've known for over 30 yrs Jim and there's plenty more sermons by him that can be found right here.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22857

We shouldn't bring up his name unless we want to properly represent what he preached and all that he tirelessly preached for all of his years. I'm sure his reward was great!

C
coffee

Don't post often, but as was said earlier, I think on this more and more as time goes by... just my thoughts on this issue by personal experience..not anything else. Thank you for letting me have a voice ... this isssue that I'm still trying to grasp...

Is there a difference when I sin and repent over and over or when I lay my head on my pillow saying, whew,I didn't sin today? What is in my heart..the underlying force thats working in both situations? What is my motive...Only God knows..because at the time I believe I am right in both situations...ONLY GOD SEES the TRUTH, He alone knows whats in my heart and how to deal with me, for me to see His Heart!

I am learning to stop trusting in myself, flesh which is corrupt and looking to Him the author and finisher of my faith...Because like was posted .. without Him we can do nothing, and He doesn't fail. To stop the focus on sin and focus on Him. So wrapped up in trying to do what is right that I am missing the whole picture...

I have never did "THIS" but you have, so does that make me a better christian?
Or I have done "This" but you haven't does that mean you are more loved?

It goes back to the relationship of the Father watching over us, His children as he or she grows ..seeing our personalities and the paths that we are taking by whatever name we want to call it ...how we by our choices are reaping what we sowed..flesh or spirit.

God knows the heart of His children individually and will do whatever it takes to not lose one of us!

So again we will in everything TRUST in Him who is faithful! Trusting God that where you and I are walking today, He is conforming us into the image of His Son Jesus... Some thru the fire, some thru the floods, some thru great sorrow, but all thru the BLOOD!


When we stand before the throne, or prostrate at his feet
Shouting for all to hear ....Your Grace and Mercy ...Your Grace and Mercy in doing whatever it took to bring me to this place. Thank You Jesus for dying for our sins and for Your Grace and Mercy !!! To God be all the Glory !!!

Again, thank you for listening,
Still learning by experience what is pleasing to the Father
your sister,
coffee

S
sermonindex

from Leonard Ravenhill

You can't have Adamic perfection in your body. You can't have mental perfection. You can't have perfection, but you CAN have perfect obedience.

Thanks I read it but I am not clear on what he means here, maybe you can help as I have not read him much before. He says you can`t have perfection but we are told to be perfect.

There are many preachers who preach a sort of holiness. Some mean that we are to strive to be holy. Some say something like LR which is rather vague. What does perfect obedience that is not perfection look like?

I agree that no-one can have perfection of the brain as it is physicval and affected by a fallen world but the heart and soul are governed by the spiritual and are restored to how they would have been if we had ever sinned when we are entirely sanctified.

There are may teaching some sort of holiess today but I have ot foud one man who is preaching the same message we heard in the past whe we had true revivals.

The message then was simple, the new ma does not sin and all unrightousness is sin.

The ones teaching holiness often do not have the experience of entire sanctification themselves and will not testify to it. Unless we have it then we do not have the discernment that comes with it.

S
sermonindex

I would just like to add, that the preachers who are preaching some sort of holiness today are popular and have a following and everyone rushes to hear them when they grace others with their presence, and generally are living a comfortable lifestyle, but this was not so with holiness preachers in the past like the early disciples and martyres. Scripture says that if you truly follow Christ even you own relatives will hate you. Now then, who has this for a testimony? Are you hated and thrown out of churches for your beliefs? We won`t get killed in the West for our beliefs yet, but we will get verbal stones. Is this what you are living through? If not then your theology is wrong.

S
sermonindex

coffee

The answer to striving in the flesh to be holy is not to give up and think `oh it will be alright anyway` It is true that we cannot earn `brownie points` with God He loves us full stop and always will. But if we do not accept His gift of holiness and live as He intends, then sadly we will not gain the kingdom of heaven. To be transofmed by Him means that we have freedom from self effort and just behave as our new nature is - there is no something inside that drags us down anymore. It is natural to becompletely obedient and His voice is there to tell us His will moment by moment so that we can avoid moving outside of His will. The problem is that living this way is above the imagination and most do not hear about it in these dark times.

C
coffee

Dear krautfrau,

Yes, what you say is true...There will be a voice behind you saying this is the way walk you in it.

I do not condone willful sin or believe in sinless perfection ...I do believe in Jesus and that He died for our sins.

In saying that, What I am trying to convey is that there is such a fine line in this issue .. Do I believe the gospel that is being preached today to repent over and over therefore I am free to live in sin under grace or the other person on the other side saying I have not sinned today therefore I'm saved ... and pride and self-rightousness has a door to walk in. Which one is worse that is what I'm asking.

Wanted to add ..on the other side of the spectrum ...whats to say that a brother or sister is struggling with a sin and going to God daily asking for His help and guidance to stop this sin...repenting ...then you have a day or two maybe three and you have not given into the flesh and are walking in the Spirit and you lay your head on the pillow at night and say, "Thank You Jesus I didn't sin today Wooohooo!!"
The same picture.. different motive of heart.

Again we have to get our focus back on Jesus..Now unto Him that is able to keep us from falling.

It comes down to each and everyones individual heart...and only God can see our motives and what is driving or moving us forward...


My posts are from my personal experience...Praying that Jesus and His Word help us to walk this walk not under false Grace or works of flesh, but by His Holy Spirit.

Your sister,
coffee

O
Oracio


In case anyone is interested, here is a link to an SI thread from 2007 dealing with this topic:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17470&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Also, let it be known that I take a firm stance against the heresy of sinless perfectionism. I have seen firsthand the demonic influence and impact it can have on true believers in Christ. I am convinced there is a healthy road between the heresies of easy believism and sinless perfectionism. It is called true conversion or regeneration by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"(1Jn.1:8), "for we all stumble in many things"(James 3:2).

J
JB1968

Oracio, always read the next verse: "But if we confess..." and then "If any man sin". He said "if", not "when". No one is arguing that mankind is not sinful from birth. However, there is a cure.

S
sermonindex

What is “sinless perfection”? It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved. It teaches a standard of absolute perfection, and that if a Christian is not perfect and without sin, then such a person is no Christian at all. It teaches that if somebody gets born again, but then stumbles into any form of sin, no matter how small, then they are immediately thrust back under the wrath of God until they repent again (and there are greater and lesser sins; see Matthew 23:14, Luke 17:1-2, John 19:11, 1 John 5:16). Thus, there is no assurance for the believer in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or in the one and perfect offering for sin by the precious blood of the eternal Covenant. Instead the life of the Christian becomes a fearful and vicious cycle containing bouts of assurance and happiness when they think they are being holy enough, and condemnation and depression when they fail to meet the standards of perfect holiness.

The writer of this post, from the link, does not understand the doctrine which he calls sinless perfection but which I prefer not to name as such as it is so misunderstood.

True holiness teaching is not that the person converted willnot sin again. Far from it. The converted person will soon see just how much he is ruled by his old man even though he tries to be obedient, there is something inside which draws him away from God and it is only when he has had enough of this tepid sort of Christianity he will seek deliverance from his flesh and be baptised in the Holy Spirit or whatever you wish to call it - it matters not - it is the experience that matters.

The person is then held by the power of God and does not have to search themselves for sins as they have blessed assurance and confidence in the keeping power of the Saviour for it is the righteouness of Christ they possess not their own so they have no need to watch every moment. If they do fall however, they have made the choice to stand outside the known will of God ad then they will fall and no longer be in a saved position.

There however has been plenty of wrong teaching about this which is not surprising when you understand just how much the devil hates this teaching and many people have been damaged by it and the false apostles.

A person who is really in the blessing has every assurance and has peace and joy. They know that they can trust in their salvation from all sin.

To call the truth heresy because of these wrong teachings however is a grave error and I caution anyone not to make a judgement like this without even understanding the doctrine properly. Those who openly oppose it from my experience end up in trouble.

J
JB1968

Good post krautfrau. Many do not understand the doctrine of Christian perfection, thereby giving their own twist to it. Wesley's "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection" explains many of the Scriptural details of this truth. It is Christ who saves, entirely sanctifies, and keeps the believer. It is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
The song says, "He is all my hope and righteousness."

A
a-servant

Ah Wesley ! - "The Marks of the New Birth" :

" After he had been crying out, as one astonished at the depth of the riches of the goodness of God, -- "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God! Beloved, now are we the sons of God: And it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is;" (1 John 3:1, &c.) -- he soon adds, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: And he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9) But some men will say, "True: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin habitually." Habitually! Whence is that? I read it not. It is not written in the Book. God plainly saith, "He doth not commit sin;" and thou addest, habitually! Who art thou that mendest the oracles of God? -- that "addest to the words of this book?" Beware, I beseech thee, lest God "add to thee all the plagues that are written therein!" Especially when the comment thou addest is such as quite swallows up the text: So that by this meqodeia planhs, artful method of deceiving, the precious promise is utterly lost; by this kubeia anqrvpvn, tricking and shuffling of men, the word of God is made of none effect. O beware, thou that thus takest from the words of this book, that, taking away the whole meaning and spirit from them, leavest only what may indeed be termed a dead letter, lest God take away thy part out of the book of life! "

M
mguldner

So sister Krautfrau,

If I understand you correctly, I could summarize your entire post as this: "Christ is our Sinless Perfection."

S
sermonindex

Thanks JB1968

mguldner

"Christ is our Sinless Perfection."

Yes that`s it perfectly. By saying that we cannot avoid sin, we are saying that our old nature is stronger and the devil is stronger than the power of the holy Spirit.

The writer of the article in the link, is using the ploy of stating two extremes, and putting his view in the middle but one of the goal posts is false ie the version of sinless perfection he describes. It is hard for me to tell whether this is deliberate or not - I have heard it done so many times and even by learned people who should know that in order to refute anythng, you need to do a bit of research and understand what you are disputing - it is only right to do so.

Having the sinless perfection of Christ which is the result of having Him live in one, dwelling in His temple which has been made clean as He cannot dwell amongst the pollution of sin, is what salvation means in its strictest sense saved from sin entirely, not just the guilt and power of it, also the presence of it. Only this will gain us entry into heaven at the end. Christ came to save the lost, from the works of the devil, and only this way do we become the sons of God.

At he begining as we come for forgiveness for our sins, we receive the power to BECOME the sons of God. They are not there yet, and if they are honest with themselves, they do not have the witness of the Holy Spirit living within. They know God, and have been delivered from the deception which keeps men from knowing that there is a God, but they lack assurance that they walk in all purity and they fall into the deception that this is all there is until death. But death will not purify us, death is our enemy if we are not already prepared for heaven and death can come upon man at any time through accident or illness.

It is not enough to desire holiness, the desire of which has been put in our hearts by God because it is attainable. It is His will for our entire sanctification and if we stand outside of that then we are outside of His will and He will only be gracious for a time. One day the heart will become hard and will cling to sin by compromising with it with the false idea that they are saved only through believing in Christs righteousness to save from sin without walking in it.

Do not be deceived brethren. You are in a holy war and the enemy has tactics that we cannot imagine. If you are sinning you are spiritually dead.

S
sermonindex

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17545&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go

J
JB1968

THe term sinless perfection gives wrong ideas. But the Bible does use the word, perfect. This is Christian perfection. The Bible term is the word holy. A person is either holy or not. It is Christ who makes us holy.

M
mguldner

Actually the word "perfect" was used as in a smelter smelting gold. They would heat up the gold and as it heated up impurities from the gold would rise to the top and so the smelter would then remove the impurities making the gold more pure. This process was done many times over to insure its purity, it was a long and hard process of perfect balance of hot and cold in order to get all the impurities. This is what we are called to The Fire for purifying but even then it is a long process of purifying or destroying and rebuilding.

*edited added further thought*
Also notice the gold (we) does none of the work. It is the Fire and the Smelter that do everything, the gold has the least significant role in the matter.

W
White_Stone

mguldner posted

Also notice the gold (we) does none of the work. It is the Fire and the Smelter that do everything, the gold has the least significant role in the matter.

That was clearly said!

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for His Perfect Work.

W
willthad

Sisters and Brothers,

I heard a man tell the story of someone that had come to his church. The visitor said he wanted to join with them because he was sick and tire of the people at his church. The brother said you don't want to come here because you will just get sick and tired of us too. You need to wait untill you are sick and tired of yourself then you will be ready to come and join us.
The question I have for you is are you sick and tired of yourself?

M
mguldner

"I heard a man tell the story of someone that had come to his church. The visitor said he wanted to join with them because he was sick and tire of the people at his church. The brother said you don't want to come here because you will just get sick and tired of us too. You need to wait untill you are sick and tired of yourself then you will be ready to come and join us."

I believe it was Zac Poonen. And to answer your question honestly I not near sick enough of myself but my stomach does churn.

Y
YHLives

A pig in a mud pool can make claims in the mud pool index forum that he is clean. Cleaner than other pigs. That does not make him cleaner than other pigs. Before he is slaughtered to be airpork, he will be super clean.

S
sermonindex

and by His Word?

Joh 13:10,11 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

1Co 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: **but ye are washed**,
but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,
and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:26,27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Pe 1:22,23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;

and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

S
sermonindex

LUKE 17:1
JESUS SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES: THINGS THAT CAUSE PEOPLE TO SIN ARE BOUND TO COME,

PROVERBS 20: 9

WHO CAN SAY, I HAVE KEPT MY HEART PURE;
I AM CLEAN AND WITHOUT SIN?

BUT BECOMES WE LOVE HIM WE PURSUE TO OBEY.
GOD, HAS SAVED US AND CALLED US TO A HOLY LIFE-
WE ARE TO PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, GODLINESS, FAITH, LOVE, ENDURANCE AND GENTLENESS.

JOHN 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.

DO WE FAIL, YES!!! "EVERYDAY"........ DOES HE PICK US UP, AND FORGIVE US, EVERYDAY

FALLING IN LOVE WITH JESUS, YIELDS TO OBEDIENCE OUT OF REVERENCE FOR GOD.
HAS THE CHURCH FORSAKEN THEIR FIRST LOVE.

S
sermonindex

LUKE 17:1
JESUS SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES: THINGS THAT CAUSE PEOPLE TO SIN ARE BOUND TO COME,

PROVERBS 20: 9

WHO CAN SAY, I HAVE KEPT MY HEART PURE;
I AM CLEAN AND WITHOUT SIN?

BUT BECOMES WE LOVE HIM WE PURSUE TO OBEY.
GOD, HAS SAVED US AND CALLED US TO A HOLY LIFE-
WE ARE TO PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, GODLINESS, FAITH, LOVE, ENDURANCE AND GENTLENESS.

JOHN 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.

DO WE FAIL, YES!!! "EVERYDAY"........ DOES HE PICK US UP, AND FORGIVE US, EVERYDAY

FALLING IN LOVE WITH JESUS, YIELDS TO OBEDIENCE OUT OF REVERENCE FOR GOD.
HAS THE CHURCH FORSAKEN THEIR FIRST LOVE.

S
sermonindex

LUKE 17:1
JESUS SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES: THINGS THAT CAUSE PEOPLE TO SIN ARE BOUND TO COME,

PROVERBS 20: 9

WHO CAN SAY, I HAVE KEPT MY HEART PURE;
I AM CLEAN AND WITHOUT SIN?

BUT BECOMES WE LOVE HIM WE PURSUE TO OBEY.
GOD, HAS SAVED US AND CALLED US TO A HOLY LIFE-
WE ARE TO PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, GODLINESS, FAITH, LOVE, ENDURANCE AND GENTLENESS.

JOHN 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.

DO WE FAIL, YES!!! "EVERYDAY"........ DOES HE PICK US UP, AND FORGIVE US, EVERYDAY

FALLING IN LOVE WITH JESUS, YIELDS TO OBEDIENCE OUT OF REVERENCE FOR GOD.
HAS THE CHURCH FORSAKEN THEIR FIRST LOVE.

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