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A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy (by John MacArthur)

O
Oracio

It appears that the following article from John MacArthur was written around the year 2003. I thought it was noteworthy and wanted to share it here.

"It has now been 15 years since The Gospel According to Jesus was first published and the lordship of Christ became a matter of intense debate among evangelicals. That book stood for the simple proposition that the gospel is a call to surrender to the lordship of Christ in humble, repentant faith.
My publisher originally assigned The Gospel According to Jesus to their academic division. They had high expectations for the book from the start and initially thought it might sell as many as 30,000 copies--an unusually high number for an academic book of that sort. But it surpassed 100,000 in sales in a few months, and within a couple of years it had reached the quarter-million mark. There are now about half a million copies in circulation, and the book is still in print. That is almost unprecedented for a polemic book dealing with a theological issue.

When I wrote the book, I expected it to be somewhat controversial, of course, because I was defending a view that a handful of respected Christian leaders, (including Charles Ryrie, John Walvoord, and Zane Hodges) had already denounced as "lordship salvation." But I confess that I did not anticipate the firestorm of intense debate that arose. The controversy seemed to dominate the evangelical world for several years after the book was published.

Most of my theological opponents in the lordship debate were fellow conservative evangelicals who had been my friends and allies in earlier controversies regarding the charismatic movement and the inerrancy of the Scriptures. They were men whom I deeply respected (and still esteem highly for much of the work they have done).

But they were promoting a view of the gospel that, from a biblical perspective, seemed seriously flawed. They insisted there is no place in the gospel for the proclamation of Jesus' lordship. They said those who call unbelievers to surrender to Christ's authority are preaching a gospel of works. They taught that repentance is a false addition to the gospel message. They objected to any kind of evangelism that employed the language of denying oneself, taking up a cross, and following Christ (cf. Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23). They declared that devotion to Christ, love for Him, and obedience to His commands are all matters that pertain to discipleship rather than saving faith. Faith, they said, is merely the acceptance of salvation as a free and unconditional gift--and they portrayed discipleship as a second-level commitment. Therefore, according to their view, the gospel presents Jesus as Savior only, not as Lord.

Nearly all the leading advocates of the no-lordship gospel were associated with Dallas Theological Seminary. In fact, Dr. James M. Boice, who wrote powerfully in defense of "lordship salvation" long before I entered the fray, referred to their view as "the Dallas Doctrine."

The pedigree of no-lordship doctrine at Dallas Seminary is traceable back to founder Lewis Sperry Chafer. The doctrine apparently stemmed from Chafer's misguided attempts to develop a uniquely dispensationalist soteriology. Chafer (together with other early dispensationalists, including C. I. Scofield) was so zealous to eliminate every vestige of law from the dispensation of grace that he embraced a kind of antinomianism. That was the seed from which the no-lordship gospel sprouted.

Apparently, no-lordship doctrine no longer dominates Dallas Seminary the way it once did, but controversy over the issue is by no means dead. The past year or so has seen publication of a few new books touting the no-lordship view, attempting to revive the debate yet again. At least one organization, the Grace Evangelical Society, was founded in the heat of the controversy a decade and a half ago and regularly publishes a journal and a newsletter devoted to defending no-lordship theology. The question evidently remains unsettled for many.

My own views on "lordship salvation" have not changed, and if anything I now see the issue as larger and more far-reaching than I did when I first wrote The Gospel According to Jesus. Much more is at stake than just the question of how we proclaim the gospel. The lordship issue has serious ramifications for a number of crucial points of theology.

Grace

The doctrine of grace, for example, is profoundly affected by no-lordship teaching. Defenders of the no-lordship gospel often refer to their unique teachings as "Grace Theology" and their movement as "the Grace Movement." They are convinced that only their system preserves the gospel's message of grace. That is precisely why they insist every opposing opinion is a kind of works-salvation.

But they are working with an unbiblical notion of "grace." Grace is not a liberal clemency or a passive indulgence that simply tolerates and coexists with sin. Divine grace doesn't guarantee heaven in the afterlife while merely overlooking the evils of this life. Authentic grace is the undeserved favor of God toward sinners, delivering them from the power as well as the penalty of sin (Romans 6:14). Grace is dynamic, "teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age" (Titus 2:12).

Furthermore, grace is not merely God's response to the sinner's initiative. Quite the opposite. Because He is gracious, God takes the initiative, drawing the sinner (John 6:44, 65), granting repentance (Acts 3:26; 5:31; 11:18), and awakening the heart to faith (Acts 13:48; 16:14). Every aspect of the believer's response--conviction, repentance, and faith--is the result of God's gracious work in the heart. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

God's grace is rooted in Christ's atonement for sin, which was infinitely costly. In fact, Christ's death on behalf of sinners is the supreme expression of divine grace. It is unthinkable that God would sacrifice His Son to purchase heaven for sinners but leave them to fend for themselves against the power of sin in this life (cf. Romans 8:32).

Sanctification

That's why sanctification is another major doctrine whose biblical foundations are undermined by no-lordship doctrine. The whole gist of the no-lordship message is that while justification is a free gift of God's grace, sanctification is primarily the believer's own work--and therefore more or less optional.

But Scripture teaches that sanctification begins at conversion. The process of practical sanctification is launched by God's regenerating work, when He graciously gives the sinner a new heart and a new spirit of obedience (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Just as regeneration marks the beginning of sanctification, glorification marks its end. Sanctification culminates in that moment when we see Christ and are instantly conformed perfectly to His image (1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 13:12). Meanwhile, all genuine believers are being sanctified--conformed gradually to the image of Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:29). Those who remain unchanged and in unbroken bondage to sin have no true knowledge of Christ (1 John 3:6).

Sanctification is as much a work of divine grace as justification. By portraying sanctification as an optional human work, advocates of no-lordship doctrine actually fall into the very error of works-salvation they profess to deplore. They have made at least this aspect of salvation into a human work.

Justification by Faith

The pivotal doctrine in the lordship debate is justification by grace through faith alone (sola fide). No-lordship doctrine is a corruption of sola fide. The leading proponents of the no-lordship view err because they tend to make justification practically the only work God does in salvation, and they omit or downplay the doctrines of regeneration and sanctification.

Justification is a forensic decree--God's legal verdict that the sinner has been fully forgiven and credited with the full merit of a perfect righteousness. Justification must be distinguished from regeneration and sanctification, but it can never be divorced from them. There is no such thing as a justified sinner who is still unregenerate or utterly unsanctified.

That is not to suggest that we are justified because of our sanctification. We are not even justified "because" of our faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification, not the ground of it.

The righteousness of Christ--not any work done by the believer or wrought by God in the sinner--is the true ground of our justification. In other words, God gives us a righteous standing only because of the perfect righteousness He imputes to us. We're not justified because of any righteousness we attain in our sanctification. We're not justified because of the quality of our faith or the depth of our repentance. God accepts us only for Christ's sake. Because of our union with Christ, he receives us as righteous in Christ. Thus we are justified because of what Christ has done on our behalf; not because of anything we do, period.

And it is by faith alone that we lay hold of the promise of justification. That's what Scripture means when it speaks of being "justified by faith" (Romans 3:8; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24).

But, as the Reformers said, while faith alone justifies, the faith that justifies is never alone. Genuine faith inevitably produces good works. The works are the fruit, not the root, of faith. And justification is therefore complete at the very inception of faith, before faith ever produces a single work. It is not a process like sanctification.

Most who have defended the lordship of Christ for the past decade and a half have labored diligently to make these things clear and to defend the principle of sola fide. This will become more and more important if the debate is rekindled, because there are a number of theological trends on the horizon that tend to undermine the principle of sola fide. These include the so-called "New Perspective on Paul," several recent attacks on the doctrine of imputation, ECT-style ecumenism, and a revival of Anabaptist opposition to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Some who have helped popularize these trends claim that they too are simply battling the shallow "faith" and cheap "grace" of modern evangelicalism, but they actually overthrow the heart of the gospel when they abandon the doctrine of justification by faith.

The errors of no-lordship theology do not find their origin in the principle of sola fide; they stem from an incomplete, man-centered soteriology that refuses to see anything beyond justification. In defending the gospel from no-lordship doctrine, we must take care not to commit the opposite error by downplaying or abandoning the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

The Sovereignty of God

Another doctrine under attack in the lordship debate is the doctrine of God's sovereignty. No-lordship theology cannot coexist with biblical views of election, predestination, and divine foreknowledge. Simply put, you won't find a Calvinist who believes in no-lordship doctrine.

If salvation is really all God's work, how could it be utterly lacking the grace of sanctification? Is surrender to Christ really a human work, or is regeneration with all its effects a sovereign work of God? How can a believer whose heart has been renewed by divine grace fail to bow to Christ's lordship? As I wrote in chapter 1 of The Gospel According to Jesus:

We must remember above all that salvation is a sovereign work of God. Biblically it is defined by what it produces, not by what one does to get it. Works are not necessary to earn salvation. But true salvation wrought by God will not fail to produce the good works that are its fruit (cf. Matthew 7:17). No aspect of salvation is merited by human works, but it is all the work of God (Titus 3:5-7). Thus salvation cannot be defective in any dimension. "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10). As a part of His saving work, God will produce repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, obedience, and ultimately glorification. Since He is not dependent on human effort in producing those elements, an experience that lacks any of them cannot be the saving work of God.

I once listened to a message by S. Lewis Johnson critiquing a book by Zane Hodges in which Dr. Johnson concluded that the central error underlying no-lordship doctrine is nothing but the ancient heresy of semi-pelagianism--the belief that saving grace cannot be efficacious without the prior cooperation of human free will.

Dr. Johnson's analysis was accurate. Scripture teaches that God's saving grace is inherently efficacious. All whom the Father has chosen shall come to Christ (John 6:37). Each one of them will be effectually called, justified, glorified, and perfectly conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29-30). No aspect of salvation can fail, because none of it hinges on the fickle human will. All of it is the efficacious work of a sovereign God. Accept those truths and you cannot embrace no-lordship doctrine.

Other Important Points of Doctrine

Where you land on the lordship question will also have far-reaching implications for your views on assurance, faith, repentance, eternal rewards, human depravity, the role of the moral law, and a host of other crucial doctrines. Almost no aspect of soteriology is left untainted by the errors of no-lordship doctrine.

So this is still a vital issue and one pastors can ill afford to ignore. If you are the least bit undecided about where you stand in the lordship debate, you need to study the issue carefully and come to solid biblical conclusions about it. Here are some books we recommend, beyond The Gospel According to Jesus (Zondervan, 1988) and The Gospel According to the Apostles (Word, 1993):

•Belcher, Richard P. A Layman's Guide to the Lordship Controversy. Southbridge, MA: Crowne, 1990.
•Boice, James M. Christ's Call to Discipleship. Chicago: Moody, 1986.
•Chantry, Walter. Today's Gospel: Authentic or Synthetic? Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1970.
•Chrisope, T. Alan. Jesus Is Lord. Welwyn, Hertfordshire: Evangelical Press, 1982.
•Crenshaw, Curtis I. Lordship Salvation: The Only Kind There Is! Memphis: Footstool, 1994.
•Gentry, Kenneth L. Lord of the Saved: Getting to the Heart of the Lordship Debate. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1992.
•Hoekema, Anthony A. Saved by Grace. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1989.
•Kuiper, R. B. God Centered Evangelism. Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1961.
•Lescelius, Robert. Lordship Salvation: Some Crucial Questions and Answers. Asheville, NC: Revival Literature, 1992.
•Reisinger, Ernest C. Lord & Christ. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1994.
•___________________. Today's Evangelism: It's Message and Methods. Phillipsburg, NJ: Craig, 1982.
•Tozer, A. W. I Call It Heresy! Harrisburg, PA: Christian Publications, 1974.
Please note that our recommendation of these books does not necessarily constitute an endorsement of everything by all of these authors."

Source: www.gty.org/Resources/Print/articles/2263

G
gazzer

i agree with all of this ,and that was my conversion ,and that is my santification ,im living what macarther is talking about ,,,,,,,the tex that says from me comes your fruit ,,,,,it all about god and not about me , he did it and im experancing it ,,,,,i fell like the apostal paul

he knoked me over with is power ,riped out my old heart put in a new heart ,gave me new desires ,and now with many struggles ,im doing what is natural to one who is a new creation in christ ,,,,,,he who is born of god keeps him self ,and the evil one will not touch him

he who is born of god does not continiue in sin ,for gods seed is in him and he cannot continue in sin

S
sermonindex


We must remember above all that salvation is a sovereign work of God. Biblically it is defined by what it produces, not by what one does to get it. Works are not necessary to earn salvation. But true salvation wrought by God will not fail to produce the good works that are its fruit (cf. Matthew 7:17). No aspect of salvation is merited by human works, but it is all the work of God (Titus 3:5-7). Thus salvation cannot be defective in any dimension.

The interesting thing about this statement is that John Macarthur has a defective view of Christ. He has in past denied the eternal Sonship of Christ, not only that, but even after his public declaration of change of beliefs and his “repentance” so called, he still puts forth a denial of eternal Sonship. More than that, in his “repentance’ he justified himself in his error and even continues to do so, to the point of continuing to hold to his erroneous doctrine.

By denying Christ His rightful title and the honour associated with it, He denies the true Lordship of Christ.


But even more than that, scripture teaches that it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ to the believer. Is it the Holy Spirit that is testifying of this false view of Christ to Macarthur?

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


One thing is clear from scripture, when one is wrong on the person or the work of Christ, it is a salvation issue. Also, from his persistent wilful sin in this matter, and his proclamation of lack of salvation for those who deny his view, all we are left with is that according to his own preaching he must be unsaved.


For further reference.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/sonship/sonjm02.htm

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A235_Reexamining-the-Eternal-Sonship-of-Christ

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/sonship/sonjm09.htm

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/sonship/sonjm11.htm


OJ

O
Oracio

Joe, I think true believers would be more quick to accept your view on MacArthur being a heretic or unsaved if you could show where he denies the deity of Christ or any other clear essential of the Faith.

I would venture to say many of us here are aware of the main reason you endeavor to defame the ministries of men like John MacArthur, Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, Tim Conway, and others. It is because of their view on the Lordship of Christ in the life of the true believer, which you vehemently oppose.

I would simply respectfully ask that you endeavor to keep this thread in topic and start a new one on another topic if it is not related here.
Sincerely,
Oracio

G
gazzer

yea think it would be nice to show some evedence joe

are you saying he denies the deity of the lord when you say eturnal son ship

S
sermonindex

There are more heresies than Arianism. The particular heresy that Macarthur holds to is Ebionism.

Ebionism-

The heresy of Ebionism originated in the second century, and similar to Adoptionism denies the eternal Sonship of Christ by teaching that Christ only became divine after his baptism. This heresy divides the life of Christ into pre/post baptism, and even refers to Christ as the son of Joseph. It is a basic continuation of Judaism, exalting the rites and regulation of the Old Testament at the expense of the gospel.

This is where Mac's LS comes from.


OJ


A
AbideinHim

"There are more heresies than Arianism. The particular heresy that Macarthur holds to is Ebionism."

OJ

Are you sure that John Mcarthur holds to this teaching of ebionism? Can you give us the references where he teaches this heresy?


Ebionism
An early heresy regarding Christ’s nature that originated from a Jewish sect called the Ebionites. They taught that Jesus of Nazareth was a good teacher and prophet, but that he was in no way divine.

The Ebionites were an early Jewish/Christian sect who denied the divinity of Christ and all of Pauline soteriology. Some believed Jesus was virgin born, but none affirmed his pre-existence (Isa. 9:6; Mic. 5:2; John 1:1-2; 17:5). They were ascetics who camped on Jesus’ teaching regarding the poor in spirit (Matt. 5:3; Luke 4:18; 7:22) and continued to strictly adhere to the Law and circumcision1. They believed that Jesus was selected by God as the Anointed One because he perfectly kept the Law. For this reason, this group is sometimes associated with the Judaizers that Paul wrote against in some of his epistles (most notably, Galatians).

Today, many believe that Jesus of Narazeth was not divine. These include the various inquiries into the 'Historical Jesus' (such as the Jesus Seminar), Mormons, Muslims, and atheists.

O
Oracio

In the articles pointed out by OJ, MacArthur explains his view on the equality of the Persons within the Trinity throughout eternity, until the time of the incarnation of Christ. In other words, MacArthur has struggled to accept the pre-incarnate subordination of Christ within the Trinity. But that is not dealing with an essential of the Faith because he still firmly declares the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection, salvation by grace through faith, and all the other essentials. What OJ is doing is what Jesus called, "straining a gnat and swallowing a camel."

Now please OJ, I think it would have been better to start a new thread on "Ebionism" and MacArthur's view regarding that than to sidetrack others here from the topic of this thread.

S
sermonindex

The Ebionites were an early Jewish/Christian sect who denied the divinity of Christ and all of Pauline soteriology.

Good catch there Abide. This is why Mac wrote the book TGATJ, he prefers to stay out of the Pauline epistles for his soteriology, and likes to cause people to look in places where the gospel is not found. He differs a bit on some points of theirs but in general he is of the Ebionite persuasion. The more you look at it the more you will see.

1) Denies Eternal Sonship, which takes away Jesus rightful title as Jehovah in the OT, (This is by no means a gnat)
2) Opposes Pauline soteriology in practice
3) Prefers Matthew for his gospel, and the Gospel is not found in Matthew.
4) Judaist law and denial of the two natures of a believer (these go hand in hand)

Mac is in a lot of trouble....


OJ

G
gazzer

how can we believe you joe ,when you wont show any evedence

you made for points with nothing to show from his writings or even a link ,whats going on,,will i find all this , in his book tgatj .what does that stand for

R
Renoncer

Old Joe said, "the Gospel is not found in Matthew".

So, you are saying that the Gospel is not found in "The Gospel according to Matthew"? (At this point, you can say, "I made a mistake!") If you can't find the Gospel in Matthew, it just shows that you do not know what the Gospel is. I would argue that the Gospel is found in every single book of the Bible (especially in the GOSPELS!!!).

Now, I hope that you will confess your error. I hope that you are not just bent on provoking, arguing, slander, and stirring up division. The Bible has some pretty harsh things to say about this. Please read the following passages: Galatians 5:26, Titus 3:10-11, Ephesians 4:29-31, 1Timothy 6:3-4, 2Timothy 3:2-5.

Love in Christ,
Renoncer

S
sermonindex

Give it a go then Renoncer, show me the Gospel in Matthew.

OJ

R
Renoncer

Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 16:24-25)

In case you do not trust Jesus as faithfully proclaiming the Gospel - how we might find eternal life in Him - you may want to compare Jesus' words to Paul's words:

For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.
(Romans 6:7-8)

Now, you may have trouble understanding the Gospel because we have reduced it down to four spiritual laws or some other man-made cliché. Ask yourself these questions: "What does it mean to believe? What does it mean to be in Him, and He in us? What does it mean to follow Jesus? What does it mean to trust in Him? What does it mean to belong to Jesus?"

S
sermonindex

That not the Gospel, there is no atonement, no resurrection, no faith, no blood, all the essentials are missing. You have narrowed it down to what you do, not what Christ has accomplished.

Try again!

OJ

S
sermonindex

A bit confused. Was given two verses that seemed to cover all that I was expected to do to gain "everlasting life" ... "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" ... so were those two verses given to me, meant to be the full "Gospel"?


About Matthew - these questions ...


"no blood atonement"? .....

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


"No resurrection"? ....

Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.


"No faith"? ....

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold,
and shall inherit "everlasting life."


"No atonement"? ....

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" ... is that all that's really required?

J
JB1968

Good answer Jesus-is-God.

R
Renoncer

(Removed by poster)

S
sermonindex

Thank you JB1968 but according to all I've heard within the last month, I'm NOT SAVED. Only use caps because we can't put words in bold print anymore but that part needed some emphasis.
I'll tell you why I'm not saved according to what I've read in about this last month or so.


1 - I agree with MacArthur's first belief, before he may have altered it - that Jesus became the Son of GOD at the conception. That prior to that - He was Elohim, The Eternal WORD of GOD and is called such in Rev 19 at His return, when He also shall have "a new Name which no man knows". And believe that after the millenial reign - that He once again with be in the same form as One GOD as He was from eternity past. Rev 21:1-7
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government "shall be" upon his shoulder: and his name "shall be" called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, "The everlasting Father", The Prince of Peace.


2 - I believe that there is more than "just believe in Him" required for salvation and see not a few verses that prove otherwise... such as Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
And - Mar 1:23,24 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.


3 - I believe that "Loving GOD and others" is absolutely essential for salvation and "if we love Him we'll keep His Commandments" and by so doing will take up our cross and follow Him, ie. die to self and be "obedient" as He was because He loved Father.


4 - I believe in a premillenial post-trib resurrection of the Saints.


5 - and I believe that if we judge another's salvation too easily that we're in danger of judgment and that if we don't Forgive, that we won't be forgiven.


6 - I don't believe in following the words of men unless what they say can be backed with ample Scripture.
There are things that MacArthur preaches that I like a lot but I'm not Reformed theology .... but do believe that, though I don't like giving "names" to beliefs, that unless He is the LORD over our life and we walk as He did, being led by His Spirit, than we're just using Him as a fire escape. I don't believe in sinless perfection but do feel that part of "following Him" is obedience to live up to the light that we have thus far - that differs from person to person.


7 - I'll leave this one blank and open for someone else to fill in a reason why they can see by now that I'm not saved.


So, I'm wiped out of some people's Book of Life.


Hoped to not take Oracio's thread off track. Will desist now, with a word of thanks for your forebearance.

S
sermonindex

JIG

Renoncer's verses had nothing of the atonement, faith, resurrection etc.

Now I will address your response, (Note: I wrote this before anyone replied, but it addresses your response)

Until Acts, the Bible declared WHAT was going to happen in the redemption of men, but the good news of its happening could not be declared, because it had not happened yet. The WHAT was declared, the WHY and HOW this act of redemption saved anyone was not yet declared. The gospel is the good news found in the declaration of HOW and WHY man can have full assurance of being justified before God. It is good news to be believed, not a way of living, or something that yet needs to be done. It is accomplished in Christ, which is what Paul reveals.

Christ had not even accomplished the redemption until Matthew 28:6 so even good news of the WHAT could not be proclaimed until then, but why and how men were justified by this act of redemption was not revealed until the epistles of Paul, the most detail is given in Romans 4-5 and 1 Cor 15.

The “Gospels” as they are called revealed WHAT had happened, but the WHY and the HOW was left to be revealed by Paul. This is why he refers to what he has revealed as “my gospel”, this is why Romanism despises Paul, this is why every works based religion dwells on scripture outside of the epistles of Paul for their justification, and yes, this is why LS looks elsewhere than the epistles for its justification.


OJ

S
sermonindex

Hia Joe. I don't believe that Paul's Gospel differs from James, Peter's or John's Epistles and Paul does set down obedience, even in Romans 8 - definitely in 1Corth 6:9,10 - Gal 5:21, etc.
That there is something of which to "obey" in every epistle of Paul is indisputable, after one has laid claim to His Name by saying or believing that they are Christians.
The "pressing on" after Salvation in Phil 3:7-15 are some of the dearest verses I've read from Paul - that he of all people would say, "that I may Know Him..." etc.

As I expressed above - I believe that we are to live up to the light that we have - that is what I was taught that "be ye perfect" means.
I also believe that we know that the more light that we have - the more we'll need to live up to and some have for that very reason, cut off their pressing on or pressing in for more light - because they don't Want to live up to any more than their own set limits for their flesh or what they decide they can tolerate of self-denial for the Love of Christ.

I believe that is why we see some new converts almost fly right into amazing depths of understanding and productiveness and others linger on for years in the same unfruitful condition - of no growth from hindering the 'light'. Their lives bearing no fruit and what does Jesus say of those that bear 'no fruit'?
Those who received the light of the way to salvation - grabbed it and were born-again as babes in Christ, but only could go so far with that, because there were things back in that darkness that they left behind that they don't want to part with, so they don't Want anymore "light".

Long story short - I see much in Paul's Epistles that point to obedience and this pressing on/in for more and more of Him. I don't think we need to put names on every belief. I read the OP about "Lordship" and all I get into my mind is a ton of N.T. Scripture about obedience - instead of lawlessness. No longer under O.T. law, but under the Law of The [indwelling] Spirit. Romans 8. Being 'led by the spirit' is merely obedience to the Shepherd's voice of Jn 10. I see it in John's Epistles as well. Don't you?

S
sermonindex


Oops. I just thought of one more question to ask, Joe.

Thirty yrs ago, I would watch "Dr. Gene Scott" - have you?

O
Oracio

JIG, no worries. The main concern I had was with OJ defaming the ministry of John M, calling him an unsaved heretic, thereby distracting others from the issues raised in the article. My concern is for new believers who may be led astray by OJ, who may develop a prejudice against John M and others who teach and preach sound doctrine.

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JIG

I see much in Paul's Epistles that point to obedience and this pressing on/in for more and more of Him.

Of course this is in Paul's epistles, but it has nothing to do with the Gospel. Paul deals with many topics, the Gospel is just one of them. The exhortation to press on is for those who have already believed and received the Gospel and are in possession of everlasting life, but pressing on is not the Gospel.

I have posted this before, but again here is a good article on what the Gospel is. Read it a few times, and see the simplicity in it.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/whatisgospel.html

In your previous post you wanted to add some things to what Christ has done to ensure your salvation, examples below.

I believe that there is more than "just believe in Him" required for salvation...

I believe that "Loving GOD and others" is absolutely essential for salvation...


I am sure you have heard the old adage, "Christ plus anything equals nothing, and Christ plus nothing equals everything", it applies to those two statements. If you add ANYTHING to faith in His atoning work as justification for your soul you make that faith of none effect. So if you truly believe there is more than "just believe in Him" required for salvation, then that belief would be worth nothing.

As you can see by the great arguments caused by this, there is no such thing as EASY-believism, belief in a work accomplished by the Saviour is very difficult for the natural man, in fact it is well nigh impossible were it not for the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. It is much more difficult than obedience, or endeavouring to keep the commandments. It puts all hope elsewhere than self, and this a natural man will not come to easily. THIS is what makes the way very narrow.

To believe on Him is ALL that is required for salvation, period. This Romans 4 and 5 goes into great depths to teach. Having a love for others insofar as we can discern it in each individual is not essential for salvation, but can be a result of it. There will be love as a result of being loved by Christ, but it may not be and often is not discerned as love by those who see it.


OJ

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Oops. I just thought of one more question to ask, Joe.

Thirty yrs ago, I would watch "Dr. Gene Scott" - have you?

Nope. 30 years ago we had two channels, and half the time only one came in, so there wasn't much TV. I don't believe he would even have been on either of them though.

OJ

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Mac is so far from sound that it very well explains his large following, but none to worry Oracio, it is just a bit longer till we see which of us comes out on which side of this one.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.


OJ

G
gazzer

all we need to do is what jesus said repent and believe

and there will be fruit if one does this

to love your neibour is fruit , and to forgive you brother is fruit


jesus is god is not saying that fruit saves us ,but it is needed to valadate saving faith

faith with out works is dead faith

is that what your saying jig

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all we need to do is what jesus said repent and believe

Believing is repenting.

and there will be fruit if one does this

to love your neibour is fruit , and to forgive you brother is fruit


From all appearances several of my neighbours really seem to love each other, two of them have even forgiven each other, problem is that none of them are saved, so how can this FRUIT validate something that doesn't exist?

jesus is god is not saying that fruit saves us ,but it is needed to valadate saving faith

I know a LOT of people who go around trying to hang fruit on a dead tree to give the appearance of life. This is why one will struggle without assurance, because they need something they do to validate their faith rather than believing the promise of God.

Here is what validates faith.

Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

faith with out works is dead faith

Could you please post some examples of works in either your life or the lives around you that PROVE a living faith. Please make it something that unbelievers do not do, because we all know that if they do the same works it does not validate anything.


OJ

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To set the record straight for the readers of this thread, Paul's gospel INSISTED ON real life obedience to God.

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me." (Acts 26:19-21)

Works meet for repentance went with turning to God. To everyone, everywhere. Paul's gospel was in no way different from the gospel the other Apostles preached, though Paul had greater light on certain truths. Yet the core gospel message was the same.

Obedience to Christ does come with believing in him. For if you truly believe in him, he is King and reigns over you and in you. Thus a disciple and a Christian are equated in the scripture. And Abraham's faith obeyed God in real life- and we must have the faith of Abraham. There is a world of difference between surrendering to Jesus and giving him his rightful place as King/Lord over us versus working to earn God's favor. There is also a world of difference between works that are filthy rags of human righteousness versus the work of Christ in a believer through the power of the Holy Spirit.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (Hebrews 11:8)

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God...... If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:1-2, 7-11)


C
Christinyou

Quote: """Could you please post some examples of works in either your life or the lives around you that PROVE a living faith. Please make it something that unbelievers do not do, because we all know that if they do the same works it does not validate anything."""

John 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our fruit perisheth unless the works we do of the Great MYSTERY revealed to the Saints now that produces fruit that will never parish.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Our fruit are according to His working in us. That we work the works of Him who was sent, that we might have eternal live in Him.

This is my fruit; that I love Him that is birthed in me and my neighbor as myself, learning from Him how to make this fruit conform to His Image.

o 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This is my fruit

In Christ: Phillip

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Hia Joe. Glad to hear that you hadn't received your beliefs from Scott, though it sounds that way sometimes.

Anyhow - in reply to your last post ...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Joe, I see that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone - but than see those who are saved are indwelled then by His Spirit and the "fruit" [or evidence] that Brother Gazzer speaks of should be there ... especially in the love and forgiveness area.


Besides 1 Corth 13 ...


Rom 8:13,14 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: "but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
For as many as are "led" by the Spirit of God, 'they are the sons of God.'


1Jn 2:2-6 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And "hereby" we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: 'hereby' know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.


1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:12,13 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 'Hereby' know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:20,21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


No sense going on to post bundles of Scripture - but once a person has come to Christ for Salvation and receives it/Him by faith, they would take on the nature of their new Father and the hunger to please Him comes from His Spirit within. His Spirit indwells us and that new nature shows itself by a hunger for Him and manifests His Nature and desires, the last Adam's and the person that has been regenerated, having been given The Spirit of Creator GOD residing in them will hunger for the things of GOD and will be convicted by The Word of GOD when we step away from what His Spirit shows us, either through the Word of GOD or by His Spirit's 'light' as conviction.

After one is saved - there should be a hunger for and a desire to please Him because we love Him and His Spirit gives us the faith to walk as He did and that's what makes us different than your loving/forgiving neighbors. What we desire after salvation is from Him and for Him .... we are Changed and can decide to either quench His Spirit inside of us or to be led by Him.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit and have our consciences seared as well - even though we have been given His Spirit to give us this new nature/His Nature - we still have freewill to decide whether to be led of Him or continue in a way that continually denies Him by our own choices/decisions/actions.
He's given us everything needed to live up to the light that we have - only our freewill can stand in His way or we can decide to be led by His Spirit and be as He is in the world.
The choice is up to us because He's given us His faith when His Own Spirit entered ours. We decide whether to cooperate with His Spirit and His Word or to not to.


We can't rip these out of our Bibles - Php 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own 'salvation' with fear and trembling For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We still have freewill to either do His Spirit's bidding and obey His Word by His Spirit or not to.

Unbelievers do not have the Spirit of GOD/Christ residing in them, leading, speaking, guiding them into all truth and giving them the desire to be as He is in the world and to obey Him by His Own power. What He calls us to do, in His Word, He enables us to do.
Unbelievers don't have That and That's the difference --- to answer your last question.

Regards!

G
gazzer

you said it joe your neigheour ,SEEMED to love one another ,, if they realy loved one onther ,they would edafie and incourage with there gifts of the spiritand interseed for one another , so you right how can there fruit valadate salvation ,,,it cant ,it is imposable

jesus said you will know them by there fruits

jesus said that about a false or a true prophert
the contex is widened to include any believer

love joy peace ,long suffering , goodness kindness ,faithfullness ect

these are fruits that are alive in my life , a cant prove that to you from where i sit

iknow of a peace that does pass humman understading
and the joy that remains hummanly fully expressable

causes me to tremlble and grone and laugh

i have a faith that produces works of mercy ,for fellow christan and poor sinners ,,,,,that is wye i work so a can give to those in need,and suport my small familly im burndened by those things ,above all to suport missions ,,like heart cry missions

i am absultly burdend to wake at least 2 hours before befor daylight ,and 2 to 2and a half hours befor i start work ,,to pray for filling of the holy spirit ,and to interseed for a small revivle in my life

i laso fell the need to listen to as mnay sermons as posable during my workd day ,between 1and 5 hours,including bible readings recorded

im burdened to fast ,at least once a fort night so my prayers are not hindered ,,and more if possable , to break remaining chains of the flesh

i know of people who try to hang basic fruit on a bad tree,,doesnt fool me bro,
but it doesnt cause me not to see the reality of need for good fruit in my life and other professing christan ;

or not be negative regarding the subject of fruit

by assurancefor my self comes only by faith ,and the joy that it produces and combined with repentance which is by faith ,and for me this is compleatly and utterly a gift of grace , not i but the grace of god that is in me

the transformed life that was produced by the mirical of god ,gives me assurance god did all of it

i hope i dont sound like im bosting

it is humanly imposable to have the fruit of gods spirit ,unbelievers dont have it ,and jesus demands it,and produces it in those whom he has elected to be comformed to his likness

i dont believe we are justafied by fruits , we are justafied befor fruits of the spirit can even exist in the believers life ,,,,but we are justafied by supanatural believing wich is gods gods gift and that is not of our selfs ,not of works that no one may boast
this true faith will produce good fruit in the future after the person saving believes
romans says abrham was justafied before works

i believe jesus is the athor and the finisher of this faith ,and the bible says he deals to each man a mesure of this faith ,speaking about the believer , the bible say the faith that come through jesus has mad the man whole who you see ,and yes you know

justafied freely by the grace that is in jesus christ

saved by the washing of the word through the regenaration of the holy spirit , prepared for good works which god has before prepared that we should walk in them ,

saved by grace
through faith and that is not of our selfs
it is the gift of god
not of works that no one may boast

for we are his workman ship created in jesus christ for good works


if you have been saved you will have good works

that is why god recreated us and befor hand perpared that we shold walk

and god will get what he has prepared

i think i will stop now ,,lol
other wise i start talking theoligy that we all wont agree ,iknow ive allready started to do that

forgive me for going of the track

brother gary

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ArtB

Does anyone here believe that Jesus, prior to his death on the cross, preached the gospel of the New Covenant?

The answer is that He did not preach the gospel of the New Covenant prior to crucifixion. At best, Jesus hinted at a New Covenant (i.e. His discussion with the young rich man who could not obtain eternal life under the Mosaic Laws, which prompted His own disciples to fearfully wonder 'who then can be saved.' to which Jesus eventually replied that there is another way to be saved, and it turned out to be apart from the Mosaic Covenant).

Had Jesus taught the New Covenant prior to His crucifixion, as Israel's Chief Rabbi (though not officially acknowledged by the Jewish leadership as He being their chief Rabbi), Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. Thereby He would have sinned and he would have been disqualified as being the ultimate unblemished lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Yes, that's correct, the Sermon on the Mount was not a Christian sermon. It was directed at His fellow Jews with the aim of getting them to keep the full Mosaic Covenant. And He did so perfectly. He was a very good Rabbi, the best ever. If you hate your brother, the seed is already in your heart to commit murder or defraud him. If you lust in your mind on a married woman, the seed to commit adultery is present and growing. Jesus was teaching the Jews to keep the whole Mosaic Covenant, all of its' 613 Laws.

Jesus never sought out any gentiles to preach to them. He referred to gentiles as dogs who were unworthy of the bread that God has for His people, Israel. However, when gentiles came to Jesus with the faith in Him, Jesus responded to their faith by granting their request for healing, because that is the very nature of God.

Having kept the entire Mosaic Covenant from birth to death, On Jesus death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant, and replaced it with w New Covenant.

The Mosaic Laws were worthless and useless in that they could not save anyone. It's purpose was to cause sin to increase and reveal our need for Jesus as our savior from sin and the accompanying death associated with sin.

Jesus is not a Priest according to Levi, but Jesus is the high Priest of a far superior everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. And where there is a change of Priesthood, there is a change of Laws.

Under the Mosaic Laws, all are condemned, except Jesus of course. The death of Jesus on a cross, taking our punishment upon himself, the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world with His blood. led to the annihilation of the Mosaic Covenant by God, for all who receive Jesus as their savior.

No works on our part is required to be saved, but the fruitful good works will emanate from us as the natural outcome of the new intimate fellowship we have with God, via the indwelling Holy Spirit, 'God in me', that transforms our very nature day by day. This is God's work in us, and He will continue to perfect us as we walk with Him daily. And it is a true gift from God to us.

Php 1:3-6
I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. NASU

Yes, Our eternal salvation is a genuine free gift from God to us.

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The answer is that He did not preach the gospel of the New Covenant prior to crucifixion.
....
Yes, that's correct, the Sermon on the Mount was not a Christian sermon. It was directed at His fellow Jews with the aim of getting them to keep the full Mosaic Covenant.

Not that you are in it for the applause, but,

Clap...Clap..Clap

THANK YOU!!!

And this is the place old Mac and many here choose to go for their "gospel". Modern day Judaizing....


OJ

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So these two verses are NOT the Gospel Now?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


O.K., my eyes are open now and ready to post many more verses out of the Mouth of Jesus while He Walked this earth, Joe!

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ArtB wrote:

Yes, that's correct, the Sermon on the Mount was not a Christian sermon. It was directed at His fellow Jews with the aim of getting them to keep the full Mosaic Covenant.


So we are to now ignore the Sermon on the Mount, as it was spoken/written to the Jews alone to get them to 'keep' the whole of the Mosaic Law?

What was Jesus telling Nicodemus in John 3 then - if not about the new birth?

What about the woman at the well? Was she a Jew?

Are you saying that Nothing that Jesus said, before His resurrection, are for the present day Gentiles also to lead us to faith in HIM which leads to Salvation by Grace, but were only spoken/written to get the Jews to KEEP the Mosaic law?

How many times did Jesus say, "If you believe in ME...." ?

You don't consider that salvation on the part of those who did or do?

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Gazzar

Not to poke holes in your testimony, but all of these things I have found unbelievers doing.


i have a faith that produces works of mercy ,for fellow christan and poor sinners

Doctors without borders does this, most in that group are not saved.

,,,,,that is wye i work so a can give to those in need,and suport my small familly im burndened by those things ,above all to suport missions ,,like heart cry missions

Mormons and JW’s both do this.

i am absultly burdend to wake at least 2 hours before befor daylight ,and 2 to 2and a half hours befor i start work

The Pharisees did this.

,,to pray for filling of the holy spirit ,and to interseed for a small revivle in my life

Simon the sorcerer asked for this

i laso fell the need to listen to as mnay sermons as posable during my workd day ,between 1and 5 hours,including bible readings recorded

I even did this when I was lost.

im burdened to fast ,at least once a fort night so my prayers are not hindered ,,and more if possable , to break remaining chains of the flesh

Again the Pharisees do this

i know of people who try to hang basic fruit on a bad tree,,doesnt fool me bro,

Doesn’t fool me often either.

but it doesnt cause me not to see the reality of need for good fruit in my life and other professing christan ;

At last, we finally agree, EVERY Christian is in NEED of good fruit, NONE have enough, and none ever will have enough.

by assurancefor my self comes only by faith ,

If you stopped there you would be biblical

and the joy that it produces and combined with repentance which is by faith

But by adding this you set up a target for the devil. At some point he will mock your joy, to the point that you won’t even recognize it as joy. He will mar your “repentance” such that you will wonder if you have repented enough. He will do this as messenger of God, to tear down all that is not of faith.

the transformed life that was produced by the mirical of god ,gives me assurance god did all of it

Your assurance is not to be based on your transformed life, it is to be based on the resurrection of Christ.

i hope i dont sound like im bosting

Only if you thought any of these things were actually worth anything.

it is humanly imposable to have the fruit of gods spirit ,unbelievers dont have it ,and jesus demands it,and produces it in those whom he has elected to be comformed to his likness

Not at all, the unbeliever can emulate EVERY fruit of the Spirit, insofar as they can deceive even themselves.

i dont believe we are justafied by fruits , we are justafied befor fruits of the spirit can even exist in the believers life

True, so the starting point of a justified believer is zero fruit, but your call for fruit would mean the starting point of salvation is when fruit occurs. That is false.

romans says abrham was justafied before works

And he was, but you are saying that one is not saved until AFTER good works (fruit appears). If no ‘fruit’ has appeared yet, you would doubt the salvation of that believer. ‘Fruit’ takes time to mature, it doesn’t begin as fruit, that is its ending.

if you have been saved you will have good works

You may, and in the case of many who are lost, there is possibility that they will have even more good works than what you have displayed, as shown above. So in reality what have these good works proven? Nothing at all….

About the only thing I haven’t found unbelievers doing is, wait for it..... lo and behold it's,....BELIEVING! Who ever said it was EASY?

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

OJ

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JIG


So these two verses are NOT the Gospel Now?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


O.K., my eyes are open now and ready to post many more verses out of the Mouth of Jesus while He Walked this earth, Joe!

The first one is not out of His mouth, but I will forgive you that slip since you are still waking up. :-)

First of all these two verses are not in Matthew which is the original book in question. John is different from the synoptic Gospels, in being more evangelical. It is where the response to the Gospel begins to be called for. This a response to the gospel, but it is not yet the gospel, it is missing much including the resurrection. It is the 'what' but not the why and the how.

Believeth on Christ to do what? How does one have everlasting life by believing? How does this justify you before God?

You have to turn to Romans to figure that out. How and why one is justified before God is the Gospel.


OJ

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How many times did Jesus say, "If you believe in ME...." ?

How was one saved in the mosaic covenant? By believing in Jehovah. Jesus is Jehovah.

OJ

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You know 'where' I got those two verses from, Joe.

And just a bit further up in that same chpt - This one Is from His Mouth - Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

After reading what ArtB wrote and now your applause to that - I'm done with these man-made & twisted interpretations of what He said and why He said what He did - from The Sermon on the Mount onward.

Jesus never messed with people's heads. He'd never try to get the people under the Mosaic Law and at the same time, tell them that if they believe in Him, they'll have Everlasting Life - and later write through Paul that the Law brings death. Jesus wouldn't try to "Keep them in the Mosaic Law" only to turn around and tell them "Now Stop trying to be saved that way." WHAT?


As far as these questions of yours --- "Believeth on Christ to do what? How does one have everlasting life by believing? How does this justify you before God?" .... you have all the answers because you gave me those two verses and as far as Romans goes - you never answered my post to you at the bottom of page 3 where there is a bit of Romans in there as well.


I'm done with this thread. I'm not a follower of any man - as I've told you and I sure have learned my lesson all the more on this last full page of this thread. Yes, I'm awake now.

Thanks for the reminder.

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You know 'where' I got those two verses from, Joe.

Of course I know where they came from. I sent them to you to help you understand the everlasting nature of salvation. I did what I could to help you see through this problem, but I guess there is no more that can be done.


OJ

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ArtB

With respect to the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told them good ways, and the right attitude, to keeping the Mosaic covenant. Every point He made in the Sermon on the Mount is good. But it did not change their inner nature. They were still incapable of keeping the Mosaic Covenant. If they were able to keep the Mosaic Laws simply by listening to Jesus teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, there would have been no need for Jesus to die on a cross as the unblemished Lamb of God whose blood takes away the sins of the world.

Look what Paul has to say about this:

Ro 7:4-12
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which werearoused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. NASU

Jesus knew those Jews who heard the Sermon on the Mount would never be saved and have eternal life and life abundantly, by keeping the Mosaic Laws based upon Hearing His Sermon on the Mount. He knew that He would have to be crucified, buried, rise up from the grave, and establish a New Covenant that does save us and through Jesus and His Covenant with us, and we are saved not by works of the Law, but we are saved accepting the atoning blood of the Lamb of God, Gods' Lamb, His only begotten Son, Jesus.

Paul explains further the difference between the two Covenants:

Ro 7:13-8:8

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 [The Conflict of Two Natures]


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Romans 8

8:1 [Deliverance from Bondage]


Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

8.2-8 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NASU

When I was a child learning to ride a bicycle, I feared riding my bike into a parked car or telephone pole. And every time I rode the the bike, I hit a car or a pole. I could not stop doing that. Years later, I learned that when riding a bike or motorcycle, where you look is where you go. And that is the failure with the Mosaic Laws, as good as they were, they continually focused our minds on sin. And where we look is where we go. Thus the Mosaic offered us a path to eternal life and great blessings, but this end that it offered proved to be nothing more than a Sisyphean task. God did not even want to give the people of the exodus the Mosaic Covenant, they requested and demanded it. God wanted them to walk by faith, not works. But they wanted to see what God wanted them to do in order that they will receive long life and great blessings. And through the sprinkling of blood upon themselves by Moses, they signed on to the Mosaic Covenant. Before any of them broke their covenant with God, God told Moses that they were incapable of keeping The Covenant they just committed their future to. All people of the Exodus who were 19 years of age when they signed on to the Mosaic covenant perished with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, these two had faith in God. Even Moses could not enter the promised land because He violated the Covenant that bears his name.

Before entering the Promised land, Moses re-read the Mosaic Laws to those who remained, and they signed on to the Mosaic Covenant. No sooner did they signed on the the Mosaic Covenant, God told Moses that they and their descendants would never keep the Covenant that they wanted. He had also told Moses that He will be sending another Prophet like Moses, and Him they better listen to. That one is our Lord Jesus.

Please also know from the NT Book of Hebrews that Jesus is not of the order of Levi, but of a far superior Priesthood, the everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. And that where there is a change of priesthood there is a change of Law.

Are you aware, Jesus-is-God, what these NT Laws actually are? And should we not be living by these Laws, and not by the Mosaic Laws?

S
sermonindex

The Sermon on the Mount is most definitely a Christian sermon and for Christians now. Jesus made it utterly clear at the end of Matthew.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:18-20)

The Sermon on the Mount was spoken to his disciples. "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him" (Matthew 5:1) Jesus said his words would not pass away (Matthew 24:35) but ultra-dispensationalists essentially say that Jesus' words have passed away by saying they are no longer relevant for us.

The difference between the moral law of God and the ceremonial law given to Moses is essential to understand. Things like keeping the sabbath, the feasts, new moons, etc were given under the Old Covenant as a shadow of the reality that's in Christ and we are told in the New Covenant that we are not required to observe these things. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17) It is clear from this passage that abiding in Christ is the substance of which these things were a shadow of. The law that the Bible does say we must submit to in the New Covenant is the law of Christ, the moral law of God which Jesus expounded in his teachings, notably in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 and which the Apostles have applied in the rest of the New Testament (Matthew 5:17-18, Galatians 6:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12). With that considered, the difference between the moral law of God which never passes away (Matthew 5:18) and the ceremonial law which was only for Israel under the Old Covenant is not difficult to discern.

Those who deny the necessity of good fruit and obedience to Christ's words need to answer why Paul preached to Jews everywhere and Gentiles everywhere the need to repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:18-20)

The truth is that Jesus' words in the gospels, including the Sermon on the Mount line up perfectly with the epistles of Paul to the gentiles. Those who deny the Sermon on the Mount's relevance today and the necessity of obedience to Christ in real life and of good fruit need to look at how the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount lines up perfectly with Paul's insistence on obedience and good fruit in his letters to gentile churches. Most likely these passages will be ignored or rationalized away and not seriously dealt with by those who deny the necessity of Christ's Lordship. But here they are for anyone who fears God and trembles at His word (Isaiah 66:2)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:21-27)

Compare this with the following:

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24)

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:16-21)

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:31-32)

And there are many more such passages throughout Paul's epistles

R
rookie

Are you sure that John Mcarthur holds to this teaching of ebionism? Can you give us the references where he teaches this heresy?


Sorry for this back track, I have not known of this idea of ebionism until now. As I read this, this thought came to my mind.

Mcarthur has been teaching for many decades. Recently his tape ministry "Grace to You" posted all of his sermons for free. As I looked through the entirety of his teaching I found that he has not taught from much of the OT to his congregation. He has expressed many times the labor of a pastor in the preparation of the sermon was of extreme importance. This is where God leads the pastor in the building up of Christ's church. Yet, much of the Bible has been neglected by Mcarthur. This may be the reason for his understanding of the Lord in the OT.

Error comes from not studying the entirety of Scripture. Jesus said that the volume of this book is written of Me...


Just a thought....

C
Christinyou

The sermon on the mount showed the fulfillment that Jesus was as to the Law. He took the letter of the Law and showed what the intent of God and His Holiness was and is.

By faith we now have the fulness of the fulfilledness of the Law in us by the Christ That God our Father birthed in us, by His Incorruptable Seed, "Born Again, not by corruptable but the incorruptable Seed" 1Peter 1:23-

None can keep the Law given by Moses or by Jesus Christ who made the Law One, increasing the intent and Holiness of the Law.

In Christ: Phillip

V
Veronica226

So in Mark 1:15 when JESUS says "Repent and believe the gospel" He didn't actually mean the gospel? Is that because He tells them to repent? Or because it's New Covenant and if He did that He'd be sinning?

Oh boy, I see a slippery slope to hell here.

(Would also like to say that the book of Matthew should not be in dispute for the reasons it seems to be. Mark was the first gospel written and Matthew copies most of it. So if you have an issue with Matthew you have an issue with Mark. Which is another slippery slope and you end up saying "Did God really say...?"!)

A
ArtB

The "if you believe in Me..." statements are very good, but He does not reveal how believing in Him leads to eternal life. He does not reveal the New Covenant until He does so privately to His disciples during the Last Supper, and they do not really understand what He is talking about. Upon His Resurrection, Jesus explains to His disciples and reveals to them the New Covenant and goes through the OT with them to help them understand that this was God's plan all along. And that the gentiles will be first, and later, all Israel will be saved too. And who He is and salvation comes only through acceptance of His blood as atonement for all the sins of whomever accepts His blood atonement for forgiveness of all their sins, past present and future, whereby we enter into fellowship with God via the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus addresses all His comments on keeping the Mosaic Laws only to His fellow Jews. And Jews were His audience. If He preached it directly to gentiles, Jesus would have violated the the Mosaic Covenant. However, many of His statements would hold true for Christians who read the Sermon on the Mount. Even many non-Christians have admired these teachings of Jesus, they are wonderful teachings. But none of these good teachings are directly related to the revelation of the New Covenant which is only fully revealed after His resurrection, that Jesus is the lamb of God whose innocent blood washes away all sins of all who accept Jesus blood as atonement of their sins. This is the gospel. Our transformation from bearing bad fruit to bearing good fruit, and being in true fellowship with God forever, this is the New Covenant of Jesus our Christ. We are saved by the Faith of Christ. A gift from God.

So yes, there are riches to mine in the Sermon on the Mount and in all of Jesus teachings, but do not confuse that with the New Covenant that was revealed after Jesus death and resurrection. We now have fellowship with God - Father, Son, and the indwelling Holy Spirit whereby God accepts us through the covering of Jesus blood that takes away all our sins, and Whom transforms our very nature to do the good that God created us to do.

A
ArtB

Growing one wrote: "The Sermon on the Mount is most definitely a Christian sermon and for Christians now. Jesus made it utterly clear at the end of Matthew."

So are you saying that during His 'Sermon on the Mount' Jesus was teaching the Jews Christianity?

Was Jesus really teaching the Jews The New Covenant?

Is it your position that when Jesus began His ministry, He said "Begone with the Mosaic Covenant, I will teach you Jews a New Covenant."

Why did they not kill him instantly as required by the Mosaic Covenant? You know, part of those 613 laws God gave to Moses,

Do you really believe that He was teaching the Jews how to be good Christians and to abandon their Mosaic Contract with God?

Why did Jesus not teach the New Covenant to gentiles well prior before His crucifixion?

Why did Jesus say Gentiles are dogs unworthy of the bread of God's people, the Jews - descendants of Israel?

Why did God break His contract (The Mosaic covenant) with the Jews prior to Jesus death, which must be so if Jesus was already teaching a New covenant?

You make a point that Jesus disciples were with Jesus when He spoke the Sermon on the Mount. Well they were Jews, were they not? What is your point here?

Are you claiming that Christianity existed before Jesus was crucified?

Do you believe that the Mosaic Laws are part and parcel of the New Covenant?

I look forward to your answers.

A
ArtB

Veronica226 wrote to ArtB

"So in Mark 1:15 when JESUS says "Repent and believe the gospel" He didn't actually mean the gospel? Is that because He tells them to repent? Or because it's New Covenant and if He did that He'd be sinning?"

The word gospel simply means "Good News" John's gospel was the Messiah was coming in their life time, and he was preparing the way of the Lord.


Veronica says:

"(Would also like to say that the book of Matthew should not be in dispute for the reasons it seems to be. Mark was the first gospel written and Matthew copies most of it. So if you have an issue with Matthew you have an issue with Mark. Which is another slippery slope and you end up saying "Did God really say...?"!)"

Mark wrote the 1st gospel as you say, Matthew rewrote Mark to make is acceptable for winning the Jews to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Luke wrote His Gospel using Mark, and careful interviews with other Christians.

Mark's Gospel is really the Apostle Peters Gospel. he dictated it to John-Mark whom Peter took under wing when Paul rejected him.

All three Gospels were written prior to the destruction of Herod's Temple by fire in 70 AD.

S
sermonindex

ArtB wrote: Are you aware, Jesus-is-God, what these NT Laws actually are? And should we not be living by these Laws, and not by the Mosaic Laws?

How you came up with this question after reading my post is a mystery.

This was your initial post -

Yes, that's correct, the Sermon on the Mount was not a Christian sermon. It was directed at His fellow Jews with the aim of getting them to keep the full Mosaic Covenant.

And this was my reply -

So we are to now ignore the Sermon on the Mount, as it was spoken/written to the Jews alone to get them to 'keep' the whole of the Mosaic Law?


Do you see your statement? That Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount to get the Jews "to KEEP the full Mosaic Covenant".

Is that why He spent 3 1/2 yrs preaching? Was that His 'Aim' before He was crucified?

Should we keep our commentaries on the Sermon on the Mount - say by, Martin Lloyd-Jones or should we listen to you?

Where do you get off saying what you have to these people and asking me such a question?

And about the Gospel of Luke - where did you get your info on that Book? Was not Luke a companion of Paul and got much of his info from his travels with Paul from others as well and not from Mark?

This thread has gone so far off target of the OP that the topic is now undiscernable.

I would like to say to Rookie - I don't follow MacArthur, though I like the man and he's one of the better of them out there, but I surely can understand why he may not have much of the O.T. in his teachings because 99.9 of the Christians I meet can't even quote one verse from the New Testament. They don't know the New Testament and if they do know a bit here or there - it winds up being an argument over whether we need to obey GOD or not. Unbelievable!!
This entity known as 'the church' is so malnurished, that they have to turn to men to teach them what they don't even understand anyway or what isn't true they swallow even faster than any truth out there.
If you quote N.T. verses they scream "Works-Works".

I opened my laptop just a while ago and e-sword was opened to these two verses and I was cheered immediately ...

Col 3:16,17 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the Name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him.


The "potential" for Sinless perfection has been provided for but the likelihood of it isn't too likely.
John said twice in his epistles, "IF" a man sin.....'

There is a deliberate attack on His Body to give Satan more power than he Scripturally has and to water down the New Testament so that every command spoken brings on the yelling of "Works".

At the end of the day here - we're left with demon possessed Christians that don't Know His Word and think obedience to N.T. commands are not allowed because they're Works.

What a day we've lived through - again.


S
sermonindex


and think obedience to N.T. commands are not allowed because they're Works.

'Allowed' isn't the word we have spoken, 'required' is the word, and it's a good thing too, because you just broke another one :-)

I'm done with this thread.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.


OJ

S
sermonindex


And After I said I was done with this thread - ArtB asked me a question.

Can you understand why he asked and why I may have felt obliged to answer, Old_Joe?

S
sermonindex

When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look.

Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot.

But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?


OJ

S
sermonindex

ArtB,

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus was teaching his disciples Christianity.

It is not my position that Jesus said begone with the Old Covenant. (edit: He didn't abolish the Old Covenant when he was on earth). In my post I referred to the difference between the law of Moses and the moral law of God. Jesus indeed kept the law of Moses as a Jew made under the law (Galatians 4). However, his teachings (since he didn't need to repeat the Mosaic Law) were about the fulfillment of the moral Law (Matthew 5:17-18) which law is not made void through faith in him now, but rather established for both Jews and Gentiles.

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:29-31)

Your next question then is not relevant. Regarding the following one, Jesus did not teach the gentiles at all prior to his crucifixion, except for those gentiles which would have been in his audience and heard the same things the Jews heard. Why was he not sent to the gentiles? That was God's wisdom.

The New Covenant was indeed never established until Jesus died and the veil in the temple rent, and God's presence opened to all.. So why did Jesus teach New Covenant truth before the New Covenant was established? (I'd guess that would be your next question). God's wisdom again. How could his disciples ever be poor in spirit and long for the Holy Spirit without seeing and hearing it taught in Jesus? How can you know you're poor if you've never seen a rich man and his ways of being rich? Jesus was breaking them and teaching them their helplessness so they'd seek God extremely earnestly for the gift of the Holy Spirit- which they did, and were gloriously answered at Pentecost.

I made it a point that the Sermon on the Mount was to Jesus' disciples because the scripture points that out (Matthew 5:1) and I believe, as I hope you do, that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

I'm claiming Christianity existed in Jesus before he was crucified and that he called men to follow him. Just because that was not possible in the inner life until after Jesus was crucified only means what was stated above, that Jesus was teaching his disciples that they could not possibly do God's will without the power of the Holy Spirit. And I dare say that even now everyone who gets filled with the Holy Spirit (truly) goes through a wilderness of some length before they are convinced that they cannot do good on their own and desperate for Christ to transform them by His Spirit. Have you gone through such a period? If so, you know what I mean. There'd be no desperation in the upper room had the promise been given prematurely, in which case the Apostles would not have been humble men, but proud men with a gift they could not handle.

I answered your last question in my previous post. Please go back to it if you want to see my answer.

My questions for you:

If Jesus' teachings were only for Jews, not Christians, then why did he command his disciples (Jews) to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever he had commanded them in Matthew 28:18-20?

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If the New Covenant is truly a unilateral covenant, as you've previously stated, then why are the following scriptures in the book that most emphasizes the abolition of the Old Covenant and establishment of the New, and repeatedly emphasizes Christ's finished work on the cross?

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:12-15)

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Hebrews 12:7-17)

Please answer these. Thank you.

G
gazzer

hi joe ,,,,,no i think you will find mormans and jehova wittness dont give to missions that preach the scriptural gosple ,that acualy creats the new birth by the holy spirt ,,,you should know that they are heritcs ,like muslims ,so your wroung there

works of mercy ,if they are not done for the glory of god as a primary motavation,then filthy rag didped in humanism ,doesnt compare with good fruit, works of mercy done for christs sake ,,, dont dont compare the two you insult gods grace when you compare the rigeous acts of the saints to a filthy rag

the pharises wernt burdend by conviction of the holy spirit ,to pray ,,,,,,,,unless you can showscripture ,you are wrong there bro

simon the scorcery didnt do that he wanted to by apastolic power ,,i didnt say that did i ,,,,your wroung again bro

no your right i dont have enoungh fruit jesus is worthy of much much more ,,,,,but we arnt saved by fruit ,and thank god for that other wise hell would be my home

ididnt say i was saved by repentance so thed devil can mock it all he wants ,,,,it is evedence of my conversion ,,evedence dosnt save anyone ,and i was saved befor anything was realy evedent .i came to christ as i was he granted me repentence

again the pharise wernt burdened by the spirits conviction to fast like i am ,,they did it to be seen by men ,,you know that ,stop being funny lol

iwas a slave to sin,,,but the sone set me free and i am free in deed ,,thats repentance ,,the devil can mock this ,,but i trust in the power of christ ,and the blood he shead ,,,,,,,not saing im perfect ,,dont believe in that sinnless doctrine

my trasformed life gives me asurance ,,,,but you got it wrong again ,,i didnt say i base my asurance on this ,,chrirst is my rock he is my base ,but what he has done supanaturaly in my life is evedent and adds to my asurance

about bosting no idont think my performance is worth any thing,, it my eyes im a pityfull excuse for a christan compared to the light he has givern me ,,and if it was up to my works i would ge strait to hell

no when i say justafied i mean saved befor any fruit ,thats what paul is teaching ,,but fruit will become evedent in one who is truly justafied ,,for me it took a long wile

no unbelievers dont have god glorafing good works you cant compare fruits of the spirit ,to the good works of a carnal man ,,,,chalk and well cheese

filty rag that dishoners god and is based on idolarty

humans puting other humans on a petasil,and loving them wile dishonering god by dening him ,and comiting other sisns at the same time ,, its not the same as friuts of the spirit that glorafie god


fruit can take a long time to ripen in the new convert but he will have some at conversion,,,,,,,,tho it may be little ,and they will grow if he is a true convert

and then he will be to obedeant,he will then be seald with the baptisim of the holy spirit

jesus said IF you will obeay me i will send you another helper ,,,, there will be fruit if there is faith

faith with out fruitfull works is dead brother gary

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sermonindex

Gazzer

There is a lot in your response that I would like to talk about, but I will limit it to this.

it my eyes im a pityfull excuse for a christan compared to the light he has givern me

I would agree with that.

my trasformed life gives me assurance

But then I would wonder how your pitiful excuse for a Christian life gives you assurance. What do you find in your pitiful Christian life that gives you any assurance? I mean there is just not any room for assurance in a pitiful Christian life, unless of course you don’t really believe you are pitiful.

Please enlarge upon this.

OJ

M
mguldner

"I mean there is just not any room for assurance in a pitiful Christian life, unless of course you don’t really believe you are pitiful."

And this point is exactly the problem I ran into, in light of the Holiness of Christ I was and am quite pathetic. It was only when I came into Christ being enveloped in His Holiness that I quickly could see my holiness vanish and my righteousness vanish not only vanishing but me casting them off as the filthy rags they are causing me to look to the One true Light Jesus Christ for my Holiness and Righteousness and in the end my Assurance. Where does this assurance come from though, Works I've done? No but the assurance is in Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ and HIS work on the Cross and that He is the Living God.

My Hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' blood and HIS righteousness.

Ever since I found Christ or ever since Christ found me and took me in like the lost dumb sheep that I am this song has become so precious a gift.

B
bowmyknees

Quote Old Joe

"When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look.

Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot.

But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?"


This is unbelievable and mean spirited.
What is happening here on sermon index?

V
Veronica226

Quote Old Joe: "When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look. Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot. But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?"

Quote bowmyknees: This is unbelievable and mean spirited. What is happening here on sermon index?

Agreed.

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sermonindex

None to worry BMK and Veronica, Christ died for the ungodly such as yourselves too! Isn't that great news?

BTW Gazzer, I am still looking for your answer.

OJ

C
carters

he who is born of god does not continiue in sin ,for gods seed is in him and he cannot continue in sin

Hi Gazzer,

I would like to give you an different perspective on your quote above.

I was radically born again when I was 14 years old, completely radical experience. Everything changed in me.

Due to many reasons, like not being around church fellowship (I was not allowed to go to church), and no proper solid teaching, no church, no foundational teaching, I slowly moved away from the Lord.

I spent the years of 15 yrs old - 20 years old, living in the world.
Was I born again? Absolutely...how do I know...

Well...everytime I was involved in the wild lifestyle (like clubbing and partying) I would keep hearing the Lord gently calling me back. I was desperately unhappy all the time because I knew I was not living for the Lord. I got involved in an "improper" relationship with a man 8 years older then myself. Every time we sinned, I would cry my heart out. Sob and sob and sob.

You can be born of God and still sin, but it will affect your life and your witness. It destroys the heart of God and their are awful consequences to bear. BUT I know that I was still saved, and I knew that God was calling me home..even in the midst of all my sinful living.

Sinning is not worth it. You pay a huge cost and you will be accountable for it. I spent years and years having to fix the past. Not to mention the number of people I have had to humbly go back to and apologise for the sinful behaviour I committed by sinning with them or by leading them on and playing emotional games, when I knew God had His one choice out there for me. I will be held accountable for the mistakes I made...as a Christian.

I have been reading through the biblical account of King David and no-one would ever deny that he was born of God. Yet David still sinned while born of God. There were major consequences because of his sin, but God forgave him, after repentance. Was David born of God before his sin? Yes.

If a solid Christian brother or sister had pulled me aside and questioned what I doing with my life (during the ages of 15-19 years old), I would have probably repented, due to the intense inner struggle that I felt and knew. I never had anyone in my life who did this.

If you know a brother or sister is of the Lord and you see them walking away from the Lord encourage them back, preach the scriptures to them, tell them of God's forgiveness and grace when they have repented. Give them your phone number and tell them to call whenever they need it. You just never know how God may use you.

Don't give up on those who have walked away from being under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Pray for them and understand that you do not understand what is really going on in their heart. Please also understand that God forgives and welcomes His own back with open arms.

In Him only
Sherid

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gazzer

he carter i didnt realise you you poster to me giving a different pespective,,,,,,,,

you know that sounds verry much like my conversion ,,, and i do agree with what you said ,,i still prayer for people iv know for many years that they may slide forward

hi joe,,,when i saing im a pityfull excuses for a christan .,,that was regarding your comment ,when you said im ok so to speak as long as a dont see my works as meaning anything ,,,,,so one one hand comparing my fruit with say george muller or hudsan taylor ,,who can i put any hope in my works ,i would be ignorent to that


paull said christ has come in to the world to save sinners ,,,,,of who Iam cheif

and that i should esteem other beter then my self

this seems to be a natural part of my regenration

when my wife trys to say im the most dedacated chritn shes knows ,,,,,,,,im hurt and verry quick to point out thats becasue she doesnt no many christan ,nor has she studdied about many saints and that im not worthy to even carrie their boots

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sermonindex

Joe,
Did you know that the term "ungodly" is used 'only' for the 'unsaved' in The Word?

You owe bowmyknees and Veronica an apology for using a term for the unsaved at them. You Really Do.

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sermonindex


"slide forward" - I like that term, gazzer.

GOD Bless you and your wife, in every way!!

M
mguldner

No offense but this is what Old Joe is getting at (I think)

Its too bad you aren't ungodly for... Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and

Romans 5:6"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."


If they aren't ungodly then what was the point of Christ? He came for us ungodly folk not sure about the rest.

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sermonindex

No offense but this is what Old Joe is getting at (I think)

Its too bad you aren't ungodly for... Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and

Romans 5:6"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

Yes sir, Matt!


If they aren't ungodly then what was the point of Christ? He came for us ungodly folk not sure about the rest.

And that is the grand summary! When one refuses to own what they are, they cannot own what Christ is. He came for the ungodly, and ONLY the ungodly, specifically those who will own themselves as ungodly (because ALL are ungodly), these are the people that Christ died for, these are the people whose faith is counted for righteousness.

When He says "There is NONE righteous, no, not one" he meant it. So people have to get over themselves, and their own painted righteousness....NOTHING but faith is counted for righteousness....


OJ

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so one one hand comparing my fruit with say george muller or hudsan taylor ,,who can i put any hope in my works ,i would be ignorent to that

Not only ignorant but unwise.

2 Cor 10:12...they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

and that i should esteem other beter then my self

It isn't referring to what you consider "Super Christians only" it is referring to Hitler as well. You and he are equal, in fact you are even worse than him, because though he sinned, he did it in relative darkness, whereas your sin is in comparative light of the scripture and the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. That makes your offense even greater than his, and why you ought to esteem Hitler better than yourself. So if you properly see Hitler as better than yourself, what assurance should you have in any of your "fruit"?


OJ

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sermonindex

Joe,
Did you know that the term "ungodly" is used 'only' for the 'unsaved' in The Word?

JIG

Here is a good primer on the subject for you.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=36001&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go


OJ

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sermonindex

Sorry to the both of you but the term "the ungodly" is only used for those who have not been washed in the blood of The Lamb / Saved.

If you have a Bible Search program, just type in 'ungodly' into the Search and search the New Testament for that word.

Sola Scriptura

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sermonindex


Sorry to the both of you but the term "the ungodly" is only used for those who have not been washed in the blood of The Lamb / Saved.

If you have a Bible Search program, just type in 'ungodly' into the Search and search the New Testament for that word.

Sola Scriptura


Been there, done that.

And this will be why you want to look anywhere but to the Gospel for your justificiation.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Who are justified? The ungodly, not those who 'were' ungodly, but the ungodly. Christ justifies the ungodly, only those who see themselves as ungodly, because all are ungodly and not all are justified, only those who will own who they are. But this takes a right reading of ALL of scripture, not just prooftexting.

A time is coming though when ALL will be convinced that they too are ungodly (Jude 15).


OJ

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sermonindex

Once the ungodly are "justified" they are no longer counted among the ungodly - their "faith is counted for righteousness."

Sola Scriptura - not the gospel according to a man. :)

[eta] You couldn't have "done that" because the term "ungodly" is only found in 10 verses in the KJV and if you look at all 10 - you'll see that the regenerate are not "the ungodly".

When peace like a river attendeth my way ... it is well, it is well, with my soul.

S
sermonindex

Amen Jesus-is-God,

True believers in Christ are never called ungodly in the scriptures. The ungodly are those who rebel against God's authority by refusing to submit to his word. Such are servants of sin and children of the devil. Everyone who is such indeed must acknowledge themselves as such and turn from that rebellion. When the controversy with God in one been settled (as it must be) then that one is no longer considered ungodly.

Thus scripture contrasts the godly and the ungodly throughout Psalm 1.

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." (Psalm 1)

It's very clear that those who delight in God's word and walk in his counsel are not ungodly. Whereas those who walk in the counsel of the wicked are. The New Testament also speaks of the saved who follow Christ as godly.

"Yea, and all that will live GODLY in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12)

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12)

Unrighteousness is the result of ungodliness, as the ungodly demonstrate their ungodliness by continual transgression of God's law. Thus, the two are inseparable. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18)

Ungodliness/unrighteousness are proven by living after the flesh. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." (2 Peter 2:9-10)

This confirms what Romans 8 says about faith in Christ resulting in a life in the Spirit, and that those who continue to live after the flesh will die. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit... For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:1, 13)

Christ died for us when we were still in rebellion to God...to bring us out of our rebellion.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Peter 2:24-25)

As a result true Christians are contrasted with the ungodly REGARDING THEIR PRESENT STATE. "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:17-18)

We are thus warned to examine ourselves regarding our present state. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)


O
Oracio

Amen Jesus-is-God and growingone, keep preaching the truth. In all the epistles we are addressed as saints not as ungodly. After listing all the kinds of ungodly people who will not inherit God's kingdom Paul clearly says, "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."(1Cor.6:11)(NKJV)

The Word makes a clear distinction between the children of God and the children of disobedience.

"1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."(Eph.2:1-10)(NKJV)

Praise God for His amazing grace which justifies, sanctifies, and will finally glorify us through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus!

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sermonindex

Thank you for your love of and labor in the Word, Brother Growingone. Posts like that edify and lift Him / The Word up.
I wish we could hear more like that. We need the 'strength' that only His Word can bring.
Pardon the analogy, but who would want tacos with barely if any meat in them - mostly just the fillers and wrap?
The meat is the focus & strength provider, and with one's clear understanding in right measure - that's an annoited meal.
Thank you, Brothers.

O
Oracio

by Jesus-is-God,

Pardon the analogy, but who would want tacos with barely if any meat in them - mostly just the fillers and wrap? The meat is the focus & strength provider, and with one's clear understanding in right measure - that's an annoited meal.

I thought it was a great analogy. Just the other day I got a chicken taco from 'El Pollo Loco' here in Cali. They gave me mostly lettuce and shredded cheese with a tiny bit of chicken in a fried corn tortilla. I felt ripped off and had a headache and my stomach was growling afterward. I know exactly what you are saying. Without the whole counsel of God's Word we will be ripped off.

G
gazzer

sorry about my bad spelling brothers and sisters ,,,,im sick at the moment and it makes it worse


god bless you to jesus is god


O
Oracio

One more thing. No one is denying the fact that prior to regeneration all of us are ungodly in the eyes of God. But once we become born again we are transferred from that state or condition and are no longer seen as ungodly in God's eyes. We are seen as saints who are washed in the blood of Christ. We are in Christ who is our righteosness, sanctification and redemption, even though we are still in this flesh and we stumble and still need to live of life of repentance and humility before God.

Now before someone endeavors to refute my post here just know that I may or may not respond, especially if it's from OJ ;)

G
gazzer

the contex joe, instead of comparing them selfs with christ which would humble them they compared them selfs with others like them selfs ,who were as bad as what they were , that is not wise,,,,,,,that is also what the self righeous do ,,that is not what i was talking about ,,,

paul said imatate me as i also imatate christ , this requires us compare our selves at certaint times


about hitler ,can you show any scripture that says i should esteem hitler better then my self ,,,,,,,

other wise that is just your opinion

no i dont just esteem the super heros of the faith better then me ,,i would go as far as saying ,eveyone here is also better then my self

like paull said i am the least of all the saints ,not worthy to be called a saint , for i perscuted the church in my mind

V
Veronica226

Jesus-Is-God, growingone and Oracio,
Thank you. So glad we are saints, holy ones.


Hebrews 10:14-17
"14 For by one offering He (Jesus) hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

Oh my, so Jesus has perfected me? aka made me *perfect* forever? Because I am a called out one? So because I am IN CHRIST (like the ENTIRE book of Ephesians talks about) I am perfect in the heavenly realms? God sees me as perfect because He doesn't see me, He sees me IN Christ? Hallelujah!
(Don't get me wrong, I say with Paul, "no good thing dwells in me" I know the past I came from, I know my wicked heart, but I am glad that God looks at me IN Christ, not out of Christ. Otherwise no one would get into heaven...)

G
ginnyrose

2 Cor 10:12...they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
and that i should esteem other beter then my self
It isn't referring to what you consider "Super Christians only" it is referring to Hitler as well. You and he are equal, in fact you are even worse than him, because though he sinned, he did it in relative darkness, whereas your sin is in comparative light of the scripture and the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. That makes your offense even greater than his, and why you ought to esteem Hitler better than yourself. So if you properly see Hitler as better than yourself, what assurance should you have in any of your "fruit"?

Joe, do you not think you are taking this interpretation out of context? To compare gazzer with Hitler is uncalled for, IMHO.

The context in 2 Cor. 10 deals with Paul defending his ministry. He was talking to Believers, not pagans.

Joe, did you not know that Adolph Hitler was a man knowledgeable of the scriptures? Do you not know that he thought he was going God's will by killing the Jews? And do you not know he was a fornicator, his mistress being Eva Braum whom he married before committing suicide?

(I am not sure which one it was, it was either Stalin or Hitler that in their youth studied for the priesthood....but both were knowledgeable of the scriptures but chose to live contrary to it. And both were responsible for the death of millions. They were not ignorant.)

The only way a body can be equal with Hitler is that both are human on the way to hell. The difference is that one has chosen to spurn God and the other chose the Narrow way, which renders him a saint. Huge difference! Paul was not comparing himself with pagans but with other Believers.

OJ, I hope you will reconsider your comparison and know how damaging it is!

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sermonindex

Joe, did you not know that Adolph Hitler was a man knowledgeable of the scriptures? Do you not know that he thought he was going God's will by killing the Jews? And do you not know he was a fornicator, his mistress being Eva Braum whom he married before committing suicide?

Yes, I know all these things. One does a lot of reading when one does not own a TV.

How much light did the Spirit of God shed on those scriptures for Hitler? Not as much as Gazzer claims to have. Therefore John 9:39-41 makes the one with more light to be of greater guilt. Gazzer is more guilty than Hitler.

OJ

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sermonindex

about hitler ,can you show any scripture that says i should esteem hitler better then my self ,,,,,,,

You already quoted it. Is Hitler not "others"?

OJ

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sermonindex

But once we become born again we are transferred from that state or condition and are no longer seen as ungodly in God's eyes.

The Christian may no longer be SEEN AS ungodly in God's eyes for Christ's sake, but that does not mean that they are no longer ungodly. There is talk of doing of godly things (living godly, godly sorrow etc.), but there is no mention of anyone in scripture who is inherently godly.

Case in point. Are you worthy? We know from Revelation 1 that none are found worthy, yet the Bible says some are "counted worthy". No inherent worthiness is found in anyone, but some are "counted worthy" for Christ's sake.

The Bible says, "Christ died for the ungodly" and not all the ungodly lest universalism be invoked, but only those who will see themselves as ungodly. This means that Christ didn't die for the godly, specifically those who see themselves as godly, or better yet refuse to see themselves as ungodly; but He sure died for those who like Job can say, "Behold I am vile", or like Peter who said, "depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord", or like Paul who said, "sinners, of whom I am chief".

There is no verse where Christ died for the godly, or for the righteous or some other such thing. That will only be found in a man's religion. Christ didn't come for the righteous or the godly, He came for the ungodly and the unrighteous.

Hang on to your precious names and your precious reputations if you must, but the day will come when Christ Himself will convince you that you are ungodly (Jude 15).

OJ

O
Oracio

Joe, I will give you credit in that last post of yours. I do agree that we must keep a poor spirit before God lest we think more highly of ourselves than we ought. As I stated before, I believe in a healthy balanced view of the true born again child of God. On the one hand, true believers are radically transformed from the inside out and made a new creation in Christ(2Cor.5:17). On the other hand, we are not and will not be perfect while we are still on this earth(Philippians 3:12-15).

My problem with some of your prior posts is that you wrongly ACCUSE THE BRETHREN of being exactly the same or worse than the unconverted, even after they are converted. You want to lump us all together and make no distinction in character.

"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”2Tim.2:19 NKJV

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sermonindex

My problem with some of your prior posts is that you wrongly ACCUSE THE BRETHREN of being exactly the same or worse than the unconverted, even after they are converted. You want to lump us all together and make no distinction in character.

Paul RIGHTLY accused himself of being chief of sinners, yes, even over Hitler. He did not say second in command, but chief. If Paul owns himself as being a sinner above Hitler who are you and I to deny it in ourselves and try to make distinction in character?


OJ

O
Oracio


Paul RIGHTLY accused himself of being chief of sinners, yes, even over Hitler.

That's where the whole counsel of God must be considered and taken to heart Joe. On the one hand we should see ourselves as the chief of sinners, and on the other hand we cannot deny the regenerating work of God's Spirit in our heart and life. To deny one of these clear truths of Scripture is grave error.

The Bible clearly declares that those who practice sin in their lives will not inherit God's kingdom. It makes a clear distinction between the character and lifestyle of the saved and the unsaved. Yet we do not hear you accepting that distinction from God's Word. I still have not seen your interpretation of those passages like 1Cor6:9-10, Gal5:19-21, 1John,etc. You've ignored and denied the truths therein, coming back with other Scriptures to support your views. I am not denying the Scriptures and truth you point out. Why do you deny and oppose the clear truth I and others point out from God's Word?

S
sermonindex


Discerning true Humility 'or' the tearing down of His Body?

What He says about His Own -


2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 1:11-14 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus


2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


Rom 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

1Jn 3:11-13 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Eph 1:22,23 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, which is "His body",
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren

[HE is not ashamed to call us "Brethren" and we're to think of others as 'better than ourselves' and be kind to one another -- but some 'are' ashamed to call us "brothers" and think they're better than the rest of us and treated us thus.
Is 'that' true humility?]

{eta}~ Jude 15 is Not referring to HIS Body!


What Paul says about himself and Why ....


2Co 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle,
'because I persecuted the church of God.'

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:12,13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
who 'was before' a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

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On the one hand we should see ourselves as the chief of sinners, and on the other hand we cannot deny the regenerating work of God's Spirit in our heart and life. To deny one of these clear truths of Scripture is grave error.

Oracio, you are still missing the point.

This is not make-believe land, we don't 'see ourselves' as something and then 'are' something else. Paul did not say "sinners of whom I see myself to be chief" but rather "sinners of whom I am chief". And yes ONLY Paul can rightly claim the title chief of sinners, because that is who he is. You cannot usurp that title, all you can own is that you are ungodly.

Background for you on Paul.

There was no sinner like Paul in all the earth, AFTER his conversion. Paul knew himself not to be sinless, and his own post-conversion sin was against the most gospel light shown to any mere man. His sin is greater who does it in more light, this is what makes Paul rightly and only the chief of sinners in all the world.

You may have been shown some gospel light, but nowhere near enough to claim the title chief of sinners, all you can own is the fact that you are ungodly. Those who actually are godly need not one exhortation to godliness, but as JIG keeps pointing out, the Bible has MANY exhortations to godliness. These are for us ungodly folks only, because those who are godly need no such exhortation.


OJ

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ginnyrose

Joe, I have read Gazzer's posts preceding this one and think you owe him an apology.

To suggest Gazzer is more guilty then Hitler...and because of what? Because he has a different theological view then you? Is this all? Have I missed anything else?

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To suggest Gazzer is more guilty then Hitler...and because of what? Because he has a different theological view then you? Is this all? Have I missed anything else?

Every Christian automatically is more guilty than Hitler because not being sinless, they sin against more light when they do sin. Hitler thought he was the messiah and represented his own cause here on earth, but the Christian is a representative of Christ so his sin brings shame upon the name of Christ; Hitler's sin did not do this. The only way that Gazzer or yourself, or me could be less guilty than Hitler is if we are not saved.

OJ

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Joe said -

"Hang on to your precious names and your precious reputations if you must, but the day will come when Christ Himself will convince you that you are ungodly (Jude 15)."

His Word says -

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver 'the godly' out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished


There are only 10 verses that use the word "ungodly" and all of them are regarding the unsaved.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


None here are "worse than Hitler" and neither was Paul - because The Word says that each will be JUDGED ACCORDING to their own WORKS ....

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
**Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:**
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

Col 3:24,25 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

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JiG,

Where does that put Paul since he was complicit in murdering Christians. Are you saying when his works are judged, his good works will offset his bad works?

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Julius, are your evil works that you did before Jesus saved you, under the blood and forgiven, never to remembered any more?

1Ti 1:12,13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
who 'was before' a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

More of what The Word says -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39944&forum=36&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0

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Hi Jig,

Rather than answer my question with a question, can you just answer mine, first? Thanks.

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There are only 10 verses that use the word "ungodly" and all of them are regarding the unsaved.

Read a couple of them again JIG.

"...In due time, Christ died for the ungodly"

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

I know you want to change 'ungodly' in those two verses to 'godly' but it is just not so. The people that both these verses refer to are the saved. Who are justified? The ungodly of course! Not those who 'were' ungodly, but those who preesently recognize they are ungodly and flee to Christ on that account.


OJ


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Bear in mind JIG, you are persisting in your lie of being done with this thread, even after being confronted by it. This is referred to as wilful disobedience. By your theology this means your works do not measure up as evidence of your salvation.

OJ

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sermonindex

Joe, you're twisting Scripture again.

HE DIED to make the ungodly, "righteous or godly".

You are taking away from the Blood of Christ and His work on The Cross.

You are calling His children "unsaved."

You are saying that those who He now calls righteous and godly, "ungodly" - which is a lie against HIS work and HIS Word.

Please be careful what you say any further against HIS Body.

C
Christinyou

Before Christ came and went to the Cross was resurrected and went to the Father in heaven and came back in the Spirit of the ones the Father gave to Jesus and His Spirit is not rebirthed in our spirit, satan out and Christ in, all were of their father the devil, and all they could do were the works of the devil.

John 8:44-47 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now being born again, where is our justification? It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, for he who is born from above does not commit sin.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can the Spirit of Christ in you sin? Absolutely not. Can a man still sin? Absolutely yes.

The Christ in us cannot sin, this is what the Father sees in us.

But, a man can sin. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Does this sin take away the Spirit of Christ birthed in us of the Father's incorruptable Seed? No, He cannot sin.

That is why God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Does God hate sin, yes, but we have an advocate with the Father who is Jesus Christ. We don't want to sin now and if we do we can be cleansed from all unrighteousness, by our confession. This not giving us license to sin but the ability to be cleansed. Our love afair with Jesus will keep us from sin, not the Law.

So if "any man sin", this is not the Chrsit who is now our Spirit sinning by the man. Christ cannot sin making us precious before the Father by His Son He birthed in us.

Most, "any man sin" will happen, then we must confess our love for God and beg forgiveness and do our best to repent.

In Christ: Phillip

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Can the Spirit of Christ in you sin? Absolutely not. Can a man still sin? Absolutely yes.

Great Philip, you are getting to the root of this right there!

The new nature imputed to the believer is Christ's, the old nature is the man's. The new nature cannot sin because it is Christ, but the old nature sure can because it is the man. The new nature being Christ's is owned by Him, meaning that anything that turns up 'godly' in a believer is owned by Christ and to take credit for it is robbery, but anything that turns up 'ungodly' in a believer is owned by the man himself.

THEREFORE, in the believer Christ is godly, but the man himself is ungodly! This is why he needs so many exhortations to godliness....


OJ

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Christinyou

Yes and if we present our bodies a living sacrifice, this body can be governed by the Christ that is in us. I must love Him enough to give Him this body, the only sacrifice I have, that He might come forth in me, through me, "for the life I now live in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God." "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me."

If I can give Him all, then it is His hands that go to work, it is His strength in me, It is His Faith by whom I am saved. He has been made unto me by the Father, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. It is my work to turn over this body to Him, that He might glorify God in me and through me. Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is the only service I can do for God and even then the Holy Spirit through the life of the Son in me, is teaching me how to do this by the Mind of Christ thAT is in me. It is only reasonable service and that being nothing of my own, but by Him that is now my life. Christ in me the hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

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gazzer

joe that verse i quoted, is not the same as a literal teaching or doctrine of the bible

you take one verse use it out of contex ,and then claim that your doctrine is taught in the bible ,,,,,,,

it is not taught in the bible as you state it is ,,,,

again ill say that is you opinion of what what you think the interpretation is

unless you can show where what you say is a doctrine in the bible

hitler sinned againsts the light he was given by the concences god gives to all men

i have sinned againsts my concence before i was saved ,,,

hitler had the same concence as i did and murdered six million jews ,,


and after i was saved iv sinned againsts my concence that was inlightened by the holy spirit

there is no doctrine in the bible that sugests ,that my sin againsts the light of my concence , is greater then hitlers sin

not only that ill go as far as saying what you say actualy goes againsts concences for two resons

one it is not a bible doctrine
two after inlightenment , the bible teaches i will still have faults and even sin , and still if iam am trully saved ,,,,,
in the letter of john ,,he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one canot touch him


the way iv lived my five accoring to his grace and power is common predicted , and excepted accoring to bible

but the way hitler lived ,,is utterly uncommon not aceptable according to the bible ,and the unenlightend concence

you see the difference

killing six million jews is not excepted even by the general darkend concences of mankind

,, rember joe

even the bible says that the imature christan the babe doest no yet no good from evil
but it is not untill he is matured ,a meat eater ,that he can decern between both good and evil

scripture shows that it is normale for a baby christan to sin


but it is not normal for a man to kill six million jews is it


it is a gross misinterpratation to compare ,,the sins of a regenerant man ,with hitlers sins

what you say is not a doctrine of scripture

but a doctrine you made up


iv herd others say that we would be bad as hitler if it wasnt for the restraning grace of god ,refuring to the common grace

but that is another subject comleatly differnt to you doctrine ,,
for that doctrine comes from many different verses in scripture ,and may be claimed ,to be a bible doctrine

tho im not sure if that is a doctrine taught in the bible either ,

joe im sure you just like to upset our brothers and sisters in here ,,,,and you just like to prove your self right ,,,,,,so thats why i ask please for bible doctrine regarding this ,,,if not ,,,,,,then except many of us will not except what you teach ,,

lets stay in the full councel of god ,and edafie oneanother in love with bible doctrine

and lets it be excepted that we will differer on some interpretation

im sure that is what the moderators want from us as god wants ,, brother gary

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White_Stone

This ungodly teaching is making personal sense to me. I have always felt odd thinking of myself as a 'Saint.' It never seemed to fit, as I know what I was before Jesus got hold of me. For a long time after I considered myself 'saved,' I still had an exaggerated opinion of myself. Kinda like the Pharisee in the Temple, "Thank you, Lord that I am not like that sinner over there." I would look at people drinking or living very bad life styles and I would feel I was better then them because at least I didn't do that stuff, I had more class. (My husband just told me that I had a higher opinion of myself than of others even before I was saved. My parents had raised me to be a snob.)

Considering myself as ungodly prevents me from having those feelings of "I am better because. . ."

The way I see it now, any good action I may see in my life is Jesus, not me. There is no good in me. When I reflect on my actions and see any kindness or love, I am seeing some of the Lord. My goal is to see more of Him and less of me.

I appreciate the lesson taught in this thread. Now that I look at it from this perspective, it makes perfect sense. God bless you, Old Joe, for taking the time to share with us. My prayer is that others will be given eyes to see the simplicity of this truth.

white stone

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We certainly are "unprofitable".

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

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"Unprofitable" is not "ungodly" - two very different words and meanings.

If one needs to go against Scripture to see that they need "humility" and that they have NOTHING that wasn't Given to them - that is unscripturally sad.

If He makes a new creation out of us and literally takes our desire away for sin - is that anything to be "proud of"?

WHO took those desires away from us to perform these sins?

Only the unsaved are called "ungodly" in HIS Word.
And men are judged in the end, by "their works". See pg 9 for two posts filled with Scripture.

"What do you have that wasn't given to you by GOD?"

Do you put New Wine in Old Wine skins?

If you're proud that you don't sin like others do - that's just the sin of pride - but we don't twist Scripture in order to get humble.

If we'd only stay with the Word of GOD and contrite prayer - sigh.


Eventually, if you continue to speak 'against' His Word and say that you are ungodly like Hitler - Satan will use it when the going gets REALLY TOUGH and you'll become what you believe. "As a man thinketh - so is he."

Unless we who have been forgiven much, just LOVE Much, for the unmerited favor and the transforming grace that He's poured His Life out to purchase for us unworthy creatures to work IN us By His Spirit to make us new creations and walk in that same spirit - Anything that goes beyond What is Written, will eventually cause us to stumble or fall when the going gets rough.

We don't take the glory for being made new creations in and by Christ Jesus - but we also do not discredit His transforming work in us by calling "ungodly" what He now calls "godly".


If we don't understand that it's not by our selves that we are now called 'righteous' or are able to not fulfill the lusts of our flesh - the problem is not with The Word that says so and not The Word that needs to be changed.


Shall we try to win souls by telling them that they'll stay ungodly and like Hitler or should we tell them that Jesus died to cleanse them from all of their sins/unrighteousness and make them a new person - righteous in the eyes of GOD by His shed blood?


The Word of GOD alone does the work and to contradict His Word in order to present oneself as "humble" is anti-Word of GOD and takes the amazing grace out of what He's done for us.

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sarahsdream

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Let us walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Walking in the flesh is ungodly and enmity with God.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

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White_Stone

I said I was ungodly. My flesh is ungodly. My spirit loves Jesus. My spirit feeds on Jesus. As much as He allows I think of Him and I long to please Him but I can not - without His power.

With the power given to me by the Holy Spirit I cleave to the Lord. I do not choose sin but the flesh is weak and I do slip.

The closer I get to Jesus the more things I see as sin but calling myself ungodly I do not see as a sin. I rejoice that I am ungodly because Jesus came to save them. As much as He allows I think of Him, I long to please Him but I can not without His power. Am I repeating myself, who cares!

Praise Jesus Christ, the Son of God

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WS

Here is one of my favourite D.L. Moody quotes.

"You can always tell when a man is a great way from God —he is always talking about himself, and how good he is. But the moment he sees God by the eye of faith he is down on his knees, and, like Job, he cries. "Behold, I am vile." All his goodness flees away. What men want is to be in earnest about their salvation, and they will soon find Christ. "


OJ

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the way iv lived my five accoring to his grace and power is common predicted , and excepted accoring to bible

but the way hitler lived ,,is utterly uncommon not aceptable according to the bible ,and the unenlightend concence

you see the difference

killing six million jews is not excepted even by the general darkend concences of mankind

Gazzer

Here are your verses, note the parallels.

Luke 18:9-14

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee (insert Gazzer) stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican (insert Hitler).

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican (insert Hitler`s foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, more info below) , standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


This is why several NAZI war criminals will enter heaven and why many Lordship salvation proponents will not. The NAZI’s have seen themselves for who they really are…..whereas Lordship Salvationists refuse to admit they are entirely ungodly….

Fascinating book if you are interested in understanding grace.

http://www.challies.com/taxonomy/term/4749?quicktabs_1=2

…. few have learned in school that among the last words of Joachim von Ribbentrop, Hitler’s foreign minister, were, “I place all my confidence in the Lamb who made atonement for my sins. May God have mercy on my soul.” He then turned to Gerecke and said, “I’ll see you again.”

OJ

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Paul said that he knew that in his flesh dwells no good thing but he never referred to any regenerated person, including himself as being "ungodly".


If "obedience because we love Him" that is written through-out the entire N.T. is now twisted into the "pride of the prayer of the Pharisee" - we've got big problems here and what Peter talked about here -

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable 'wrest/pervert', as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

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If "obedience because we love Him" that is written through-out the entire N.T. is now twisted into the "pride of the prayer of the Pharisee"

Actually obedience or turning from sin because we love Christ has always been the motive I have preached here. What I have been opposed to is obedience as evidence of salvation, these two are miles apart.

Gazzer and yourself want these things that you do as your evidence that you are saved. What I keep telling you is that all the evidence you can produce does you no good in 'proving' your salvation. It (the assurance of your salvation) is not about you and your evidence, it is altogether and only about what Christ has done on your behalf.


OJ

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I don't believe gazzer said that - but I believe it and here's just a very few reasons why -


Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Mat 7:18-27 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, *and doeth them*, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and *doeth them not*, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Mat 25: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


1Th 4:1-8 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: that no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.


1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


1Jn 2:4,5 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of *eternal salvation unto all them that obey him*


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

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JIG

It always comes down to how a man is justified, either by the works of the law, or by faith. Is man justified by his evidence, or by his faith?

John 6:29 This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH!!!!


OJ

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A faithless person cannot "keep His Commandments".

Add James to my last post.

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Well since you keep returning here after you said you were done, breaking the ninth commandment, are we to count you among the faithless?

OJ

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Our Sister posted a link to a thread for us to read and I take this from pg 6 of that thread, that I was just reading the whole of.... excuse the code that I didn't remove from it. It's an older thread ....

Quote:

"Certainly we never have permission to disobey God. Goes does not allow [i]any[/i] disobedience whatsoever.

The questions then become; what is the recourse if a Christian sins? What is a 'sin' in the first place?

Most would say that a 'sin' is an act of disobedience to the known will of God. Yet sin means to miss the mark also- so as not to achieve the prize. To sin is to [i]fall short of the glory of God[/i]. Sin is when we fail in the purpose of our existence- to be a perfect representation of God in the earth.

There is also the concept of 'trespassing' that is linked to sin. In fact, there are many ways of defining sin in Old Testament Hebrew (sin was made greatly sensitized) - with only a handfull in the NT. Every willful transgression is an act of rebellion .


There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There were 365 'don'ts' (neg) in the Old Testament and 248 'do's' (pos) with 613 laws in all. The Law demands absolute righteousness, in word and deed, in thought and intention, in all obedience, love, and devotion. When sin is found it requires payment of the debt, not only to "the uttermost farthing," but as McClintock says- in coin in which there is no trace of alloy.

As I mentioned on the other thread, the great challenge is the practical application of the known will of God to the endlessly diversified and complicated events and circumstances of daily life. Right and wrong often overlap, in that we cannot tell whether we ought to show mercy or execute a sentence. We are confounded by passages that tell us to judge not that we be not judged and others that require us put away from us a wicked person. We are pressed upon by conscience to uphold convictions when they conflict with a fellow believer and wot not whether to part company or remain in league. Case in point, Paul and Barnabas and the issue of John Mark. Errors of judgment lead to errors in action; error begets error.

Often when the smoke clears there is but one certainty- that I am [u]not[/u] perfect. If I had perfect knowledge, I would be none the better, as I had not the perfect wisdom to apply that knowledge. And if I had perfect wisdom I had not the power to make effectual the application. I come away with one certainty- I am [u]not[/u] perfect.

If I find myself in such a state that I am walking in what I believe to be the perfect will of God with no real desire to sin- not even as much a the draw of temptation- I am assured that it is the Holy Spirit propping me up. If I know such a state for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade I must know in my heart it is the underpinning and [i]hedge[/i] of the Holy Spirit. If God would remove the hedge- I had seen myself afresh as I am.

Therefore, the challenge in times of victory is to be honest about my state lest I get puffed up and God resist me. If I begin to look upon myself as if I were my own cause of holiness I will surely stumble. If I look with disdain upon sinners in need of repentance, having forgotten that I was once purged from my own sins- God will surely resist me. The best claim I ought to make is that there are no present [i]controversies[/i] between me and God. If there are no controversies and my conscience lay quiet- I must rightly define my estate. From this will I deduce that I am perfect- even as Christ? Nay verily! All it means is that there are no present controversies between me and God. To call this perfection is, to me, the grossest of over-exaggerations and will almost certainly incline me to pride, which, will bring destruction and a fall.

If we will walk in [i]humility[/i] in the times of victory we will have victory- there is no other way. God resists the proud and you cannot walk in victory in your own power."


from RobertW


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Again I say, since you keep returning here after you said you were done, breaking the ninth commandment, are we to count you among the faithless?

OJ

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To All,

Living by faith in Christ will necessarily be demonstrated by Christ's power revealing his righteousness.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation TO EVERY ONE that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:16-17)

Christ's power works in and is revealed in everyone who lives by faith. Christ's work on the cross will indeed forgive none but those who come to to live by his power. There is no such thing as an external salvation that forgives you but doesn't cause you overcome the world by Christ's life.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." (1 John 5:4)

Jesus defined overcoming as keeping his works until the end according to Revelation 2:26. The world opposes these works, as the spirit of the world is fulfilling one's own lusts/desires (Ephesians 2:2-3, James 4:1-5) as opposed to doing God's will, which is the essence of Christ's words/works (see Matthew 7:21-27). Those works only come when God's grace transforms you into a new creature with a new heart who is not living under Satan's power in Adam; but rather under God's power in Christ. This is indeed evidence and proof of salvation. Look at the condition which Jesus gave of forgiveness of sins when he commissioned Paul to preach the gospel.

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, THAT THEY MAY RECEIVE forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:18)

What if you are not under God's power? What if you are not sanctified? Can you still hope to have forgiveness of sins unless you totally reject the words of Jesus given above in Acts 26:18? Would you not thus and call him a liar?

Boasting in one's self comes by those living in the flesh seeking to be righteous in the flesh. Such boasters do not really overcome for the carnal mind is enmity against God and those in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8). Those who are abiding in Christ do indeed overcome the world (1 John 5:4) and as a result know it is Christ who is doing the work; they thus glory in him alone. That doesn't change the fact that we must actually overcome by faith in Christ.

If you are truly born again and abiding in Christ you know that by Christ's grace you do what you couldn't do in the flesh; and you know that by his grace you don't do evil like you used to do- and you glorify God for that. If that's not your testimony, you need to examine yourself whether you are really in the faith and whether Christ is really lives in you, as the gospel of Christ is power to reveal the righteousness of God through everyone who believes and lives by faith (Romans 1:16-17)

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:11-14)

Are we good enough in the flesh to make ourselves acceptable to God by our performance? No. Romans 3:9-20 answers that clearly about those in Adam, as all who are in Christ, including myself, WERE at some point.

The question is, Does present faith in Christ leave our lives like they were in Adam?- or even remotely like they were in Adam? Can such a transformation NOT BE EVIDENT by the way we think/act? No way.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Romans 5:10)

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:5-6)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27)

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Veronica226

I know I'm kind of interrupting here, so please forgive me.

Old_Joe, if it's alright with you I would like to ask you some questions, then depending on how you answer them I may ask some more questions. Again, if that's all right.

Would you say you are saved? or that you are a Christian?
Or perhaps a better way to put it, Do you believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation?

(Please note I DO NOT ask those in jest. I also do not ask them because I don't know the answer. But I do want it straight from the horses mouth. And there is a rhyme and reason why I am asking these questions. I would be super grateful if you just played along with me for a moment. :) Thanks.)

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