Philadelphia Christians go to court today

I think this is an important court case to watch for the church.Pray for these Christians who are fighting 47 years in prison for preaching on the sidewalk... In America. Thanks.Today they go to court.www.repentamerica.com for more info.Pass this along to others.http://www.afa.net/clp/ReleaseDetail.asp?id=77http://www.afa.net/clp/videos/philly11.wmvContact: Brian Fahling, Esq.American Family AssociationP.O. Drawer 2440Tupelo, MS 388031-662-680-3886 For Immediate Release: 12/13/2004 Philadelphia, PA - The Third Circuit Court of Appeals today denied an emergency appeal by eleven Christians who allege that the Philadelphia District Attorney's office retaliated against them for exercising their constitutional rights during a homosexual event that celebrated the "National Coming Out Day." The Philadelphia 11, the group arrested at the coming out event dubbed "Outfest," were charged with three (3) felonies and five (5) misdemeanors. Among the felony charges were Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic Intimidation and Riot. The Philadelphia 11 were placed in handcuffs when Chief James Tiano, liaison between the police department and the homosexual community, ordered the group to relocate to the outskirts of the Outfest event. A few moments prior to their arrest, the group was told by another Philadelphia police officer that because they were on a public sidewalk they were permitted to move freely through the event. The Philadelphia11 faces a maximum penalty of forty-seven (47) years each in jail. Early last week the Center for Law & Policy (CLP) filed papers in the federal court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania seeking a temporary restraining order that would prevent the City of Philadelphia from prosecuting the case against the Philadelphia 11. Judge Petrese Tucker heard the case and denied the Philadelphia 11's request. The CLP immediately appealed Judge Tucker's decision to the Third Circuit and that Court denied the Philadelphia 11's request for emergency relief. "This turn of events is beyond belief," stated Brian Fahling, Senior Trial Attorney for the CLP. At the hearing before Judge Tucker, the CLP presented undisputed video evidence that captured the "Outfest" events on tape. This video shows that at all times the Philadelphia 11 cooperated with the police and was continually harassed by a homosexual security force called the Pink Angels. Further, despite the disruptive tactics of the Pink Angels, not one Angel was cited or arrested, or even warned. This evidence was not contested by the City of Philadelphia. "Despite the undisputed evidence placed before the Court, our action for emergency relief was denied not once, but twice," Fahling added. "Many had thought an outcome like this," argued Fahling, "ended at Selma." "It seems that the Philadelphia 11 have become second class citizens in the City of Brotherly Love." The Philadelphia 11's preliminary hearing will take place tomorrow, December 14th, 9:00 AM, at the Criminal Justice Center for the Philadelphia Municipal Court, 1301 Filbert Street, Room 606, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.The Center for Law & Policy is a division of the American Family Association, Inc. The CLP restricts its practice to constitutional litigation in state and federal courts.

It didn't go well in court today. The judge disregarded the evidence and kept charges on four of us.Michael Marcavage has all 8 charges still on him.Mark Diener has 4.Jay Cruse has 4.I, Denny Green, have 3.The video was shown in court and every charge was proven to be baseless. Despite that fact, the judge did what he planned to do from the beginning. The truth was irrelevant to this court. Philly wants to hang Mike Marcavage. Please pray for us.

Lord lift up the Philadelphia four.Exalt yourself in the court room and let your presance be known among the un-believers persecuting our brothers in Christ.May your Glory be spread throughout the nation by the release of the Philly four.In the name of Jesus Christ.Amen

Philly Court Orders Four Christians to Trial; Emergency Appeal LikelyAttorney Contends Reading Scripture in Public Landed Them in JailBy Allie MartinDecember 15, 2004(AgapePress) - An attorney with a pro-family ministry says a judge's decision on Tuesday, ordering four Christians in Philadelphia to stand trial for witnessing at a homosexual pride event, is comparable to the atmosphere of the civil rights struggle of the 1950s and 1960s.In October, 11 Christians were arrested as they were praying and reading scripture during the annual "gay pride" event known as "Outfest" in Philadelphia. Those in the group were charged with three felonies (criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot) and five misdemeanors. On Tuesday, charges were dropped against seven of the individuals; but Philadelphia Municipal Court Judge William Austin Meehan ordered the other four to stand trial on the charges. They were also banned from doing any type of evangelism within 100 yards of any "gay and lesbian event."Brian Fahling is the senior trial attorney for the American Family Association (AFA) Center for Law & Policy, which represented the group in the Philadelphia court. Fahling says the Christian activists are being persecuted simply for exercising their constitutional rights."They were exercising their First Amendment rights in a public forum, and we have videotape that demonstrates that," Fahling says. "And we had a prosecutor [Charles Ehrlich] engage in the most venomous attack on defendants that I have heretofore ever seen -- calling them names, calling them 'hateful.'" In addition, says Fahling, Ehrlich referred to the Bible as "hate speech." -Click on link to view video-video clipThe AFA attorney is highly critical of judicial operations in the City of Brotherly Love. "This is like being in the South in the 1950s up here in this court system. It is absolutely incredible," Fahling says. "Of course, we're going to seek relief [for our clients] -- but we don't expect to get justice in Philadelphia."An emergency appeal may be the next step because the four, if convicted, could face up to 47 years in prison. Fahling explains that option."We sought emergency relief earlier from the federal courts," he says, "[and] I'm sure the federal courts thought that justice would be done here and didn't intervene. So we have one more route, and that would be to appeal to [Supreme Court] Justice [David] Souter, who presides over this particular territory with respect to these issues. So we may take an emergency appeal there."Fahling reiterates his contention that justice for his clients will need to found elsewhere. "If we can get somebody to actually look at this videotape, we'll get justice done," he says. "But again, it's not coming out of Philadelphia."The attorney says the charges were dropped against the remaining seven because they were not seen quoting scripture on the videotape. Fahling says in Philadelphia, it appears the public reading of scripture will land a person in jail.

I am praying for all of you Denny and am watching the case. I have connections here with a Christian TV station and Im gonna see about getting this video on air during the live show tonight.God's will, be done.Robbie

http://www.covenantnews.com/repent041216.htmJudge Orders Christians To Stand Trial Bans Evangelism Within 100 Feet Of Homosexual Events Christians Face 47 Years In Prison Because Philly Judge Calls Bible Verses 'Fighting Words' PHILADELPHIA, PA. Dec., 16 /Covenant News Wire Service/ -- At a preliminary hearing held December 14, Philadelphia Municipal Court Judge William Austin Meehan dismissed charges against six Christians who were evangelizing at the 2004 “Outfest”, but upheld felony and misdemeanor charges against four others accused of “hate crimes” at the homosexual celebration. Judge Meehan also banned the four men from doing any type of evangelism within 100 feet of any “gay and lesbian event”.The Christians were a part of an evangelistic effort organized by Repent America, which frequently preaches at homosexual gatherings in Philadelphia. The charges against Repent America Director Michael Marcavage include three felonies: Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic Intimidation, which falls under “Hate Crimes”, and Riot; as well as five Misdemeanors: Reckless Endangerment, Possession of Instruments of Crime, Failure to Disperse, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with Criminal Conspiracy, Failure to Disperse, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. Dennis Green is charged with Criminal Conspiracy, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. The "Criminal Conspiracy" charge links all of the Defendants together, therefore Marcavage's "Ethnic Intimidation" charge will be linked to the other Defendants.During the hearing, Judge Meehan watched a videotape of the arrests, and turned his head toward the Defendants each time he saw one of them in the video footage. Apparently, the charges were dropped against the six other Defendants because they were not seen quoting scripture on the videotape.In his closing argument before Judge Meehan at the preliminary hearing, prosecutor Charles Ehrlich, Chief of the Municipal Court Unit, went into a fit of rage, and declared the Bible "hate speech", while he passionately argued to the court that the Defendants are "hateful" and "disgusting,” and therefore should all be found guilty.American Family Association Center for Law and Policy (AFACLP) attorney Brian Fahling filed on behalf of the Repent America team in early December to block the prosecution, but U.S. District Judge Petrese B. Tucker last week refused; and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third District, in response to an emergency appeal, subsequently refused to reverse her ruling.Only two days prior to the “Outfest” event, Marcavage’s attorneys filed a lawsuit against the City of Philadelphia and its agents for civil rights violations, contending that the City and the police have a “policy, practice and custom” of denying Marcavage’s First, Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment rights by continually harassing, intimidating, threatening, and arresting him for his public ministry.During "OutFest", the police allowed the “Pink Angels,” a self-proclaimed gay security force, to obstruct and harass the Christians when they surrounded them, linked arms to prevent access to public areas, and held 10-foot pink Styrofoam placards while shouting and blowing loud whistles. Fran Price, community liaison for Philly Pride Presents, the sponsor of “Outfest”, acknowledged that there was a potential for violence when she stated that the “Pink Angels were there to defuse a riot and to protect the protestors from getting beaten up” - presumably by the “Outfest” crowd.Scott Shields, criminal defense attorney for the 'Philadelphia 11', stated after the ruling that “the message of this court is that if you preach from the Scriptures at a gay and lesbian event, you are committing a hate crime... This case is historic, and is the first reported case in America where the Bible is being used to form the evidentiary basis for a hate crime. Now, here in the cradle of liberty and the birthplace of our nation, it is a crime to be openly Christian."A separate preliminary hearing for a teenage defendant was originally scheduled for December 10 in juvenile court, but has been postponed. The trial date for the four remaining adult defendants has not yet been set.http://www.covenantnews.com/repent041216.htm

Free the Philadelphia 4--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: December 20, 20041:00 a.m. Eastern© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored. If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights? That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists. It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest." The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels." Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment. Guess who was arrested? That's right. The Christians. And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves. Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies – criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures. Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them. This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet. It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love." Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians. It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania – and great it was. "Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression." If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho. We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America – not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual – will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness." If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle. Will you come to Philadelphia?

While I don't quite understand what you hoped to accomplish by confronting (or "ministering to" if you prefer) homosexuals at a gay pride parade, I agree that the judicial system's response to your actions is deplorable. In this country, freedom means that you are free to express your views. This means that sometimes people have to put up with you even when they would rather have you shut up. That's the essence of freedom of political speech - we must put up with people that have unpopular things to say.I think what the police did to you christians was a violation of your first amendment rights. I disagree with the message that you were conveying, but I will forever support their right to convey it.By the way, don't discount the ACLU just yet, they may indeed be interested in helping - if you are willing to ask.

They won't come to church, so how do we reach them? I think we would all agree that ministy should reach well beyond the four walls of the Church. I am amazed at how God is starting to open doors to put me in the path of folks like Bro. Jesse, Bro Greg, Bro. Josh, and a host of others here on SI that have been a real inspiration that I have been able to passon to others. As a matter of fact, our pastor is dismissing services to go Sunday to reach out to the street people in downtown KC. We also added another home for shut-ins to our outreach. We can minister the Gospel to them in the streets and in doors as the Spirit leads. Sometimes we try to help them with their needs, other times we just present the Gospel. There is no real cookie cutter way. We need the Holy Spirit in each endeavor as each will need a tailor cut plan. God bless,-Robert

I am not sure I would characterize what these folks were doing as "reaching out" or "ministering".Christ's ministry was one that spoke to those that were willing to listen, not one that forced the truth into their midst. He would simply begin to speak, and those willing to hear him would stop and listen - he didn't force his message on anyone. However, even though I don't think these Christians were doing the will of God, I still think it is their Constitutional right to speak their mind and express their religion. They should not be punished for peaceably expressing their views - even if their motivation for doing so is a mistaken belief that God wants them to do it.

RobertW,By the way, what is a "shut-in"?

I think as Robert there needs to be a "both and" type of ministry, Street, open-air preaching AND "ministering" as some have described. I have "ministered" to many homosexuals and sexually addicted on www.settingcaptivesfree.com ministry's web site and some people are just plan old love their sin more than God. They are double minded! But being double minded and captive to your sin, doesn't prevent someone from still preaching the truth to them. Homosexual addicition/perversion of sin is a thick chain around someones neck, full of pride and some people may need to get their backside hit and others may need to be reached by someone who is loving an nuturing. The Holy Spirit knows, but I know from my ministry experience to homosexual's, even being loving does not work, even after they have acquired HIV or AIDS. The gospel has to be preached. And sodomy is the sin on the streets to day that has to be preached against. Grace,Doug

In some ways I have to agree, the society we are living in IS godless and doesnt stand for what is right, moral and true. I am not saying people shouldnt go open-air preach, etc but the same principle could be in place if homosexuals or satanists wanted to go and preach infornt of your home or church. I am sure I could get myself into jail quite quickly if I knew the right buttons to push.. but rather we need to "minister" to people.There is something troublesome about this as I have been following it. The sense of what was set out to be accomplished? There seems to be an air of provoking and then defending 'rights' as if that was the purpose. It leaves one wondering just what effect this had on those that they were trying to reach, or were they really trying to reach anyone?Before anyone pick's up stones what I am trying to get at is put yourself into the shoes of those participants who are in the midst of the devil's kingdom which we all came out of for a minute. What would be your impression? Would any of this cause you to leave your lifestyle or even challenge your conscious?Wouldn't a better impression been left if upon first confrontation with authority (seeAuthority and submission ) that they quitely disperssed leaving the pink people with nothing to do and in effect showing that instead of being more concerned about our so called 'rights' that we are a people under authority, given by God?All this just appears to be picking a fight for the sake of picking a fight and leaving an impression that Christians are really not all that concerned about what they profess to be concerned about.

However, even though I don't think these Christians were doing the will of God, I still think it is their Constitutional right to speak their mind and express their religion. They should not be punished for peaceably expressing their views - even if their motivation for doing so is a mistaken belief that God wants them to do it.I agree with that as well. Maybe this little illustration...Early on in this walk my wife and I attended, brace yourself here, a Metallica concert ( I had won tickets) when they played with the San Francisco Orchestra. As we waited outside in line to get in there were some rather angry worded sign carrying 'Christians' walking about, "God hates..." and so forth. Can still recall looking at them and wondering "is this really accomplishing anything?" No one in the crowd was hostile towards them, most seemed to be just ignoring them. Met eyes with one of them and being so new as a born again believer didn't know what to say, think there may have been a twinge of conviction whether I should have been there or not but it just seemed that there was more hatred being shown than concern instead of the other way around. Hesitate to say this, giving the wrong impression, but the striking thing was that though they were fairly vocal when we first got there, the whole time we were in line they never said a word. Could just have been a coincidence but it seemed the Holy Spirit was working on both of us that day as I observed them and they observed us (all of us for that matter).All this may not pertain to this particular situation but just wanted to try and bring to remembrance what we all have come out of in some form or fashion.

By the way, what is a "shut-in"?That is a blanket term we use to describe the good folks who would come to Church if they were able. Something is keeping them 'shut-in' (as it were) where they live. This would be nursing homes, assisted living homes, half-way houses, jails, etc. Sometimes folk are constrained to a certain facility by law and others by their frail health. Nursing homes are a particularly forgotten ministry. Sometimes during Christmas they get some attention, but by and large they are forgotten. Our ministry to these people right now could soar into a multitude of opportunities to share Christ if we had the dedicated, and Holy Spirit 'called' laborers. I believe many are called to this ministry and refuse to answer the calling. There is no glory towards man in these places. We go in and sing the old timey hymns and preach a short message. We then pray for them. You may minister for years and never see a single response from a person. Then one day you get a call and they are very ill and an opportunity arises to again share Christ. We have operated for 10 years on the belief that if there is breath in their lungs there is hope. Many have been saved in the closing days of their life. it is a literal 'snatching of souls out of the burning.' Some of these folks have one foot in hell and another on a banana peeling. We 'snatch' as many as we can from the burning on average of 9 times a month. Yet others we minister to are in half-way like homes. One man named Steve was crying last Thursday and asked us to pray for him. He held up his arms and pulled back his sleeves and said, "I'm tired of doing this!" He had slit his wrists many times over. We prayed for him for deliverance and will continue to minister to him. Beloved, there are doors open everywhere to reach souls as long as we consider that every soul is of an equal value in the eyes of Christ. Young or old or rich or poor. They are all souls that need Salvation. God Bless,-Robert

I agree with Bro. Mike on the way in which some folks are not really ministering. As I have watched Bro. Jesse's ministry I am encouraged that his ministry is different in that His heart is to really win souls. I see this also in Bro. Josh (Oarsman). I do not know the folks in question and I hope thay they were trying to be sincere and really minister. I think also that having guys like Josh and Jesse holding seminars or sharing their experiences is a tremendous help. I have been very blessed by what they are doing and plan to have Bro. Jesse come and minister to our youth when we can work out the details. Next time I'm in CA I would like to go to the park to see where Bro. Josh ministers to the homeless. Lets pray that God will give these folks in question great wisdom to operate in their ministry. You can never have too much wisdom.God Bless,-Robert

I have to be honest with this discussion and share some feelings, whether anyone cares or not.Let me give you some background. About 14 years ago, I was very involved with "pro-life" ministry., ie picketing, sidewalk counseling, blocking clincs, and exposing the dark evil deeds of baby killing in abortion clinics. Some have called this "hateful" on part of Christians and not of the will of God and not being "nice" and ministering to the needs of these women in a crisis pregnancy. Has this stopped the evil in this land of baby killing, no. Has it saved some babies from death? yes, Have some women come to know the Lord through this method of ministry, yes. And many people still do today.Do some people, christians included, disagree with "pro-life" ministry, yes. Did I believe I was obeying God and doing His will? yes. Is the gospel being preached outside the walls of our churches in this type of ministry, yes.Many people from opposing sides when I used to picket or pray or whatever at abortion clinics would say things like, "go back to your prayer closet, or go back to your church" and get off the streets! I guess what I am saying is Michael Mcarvage and the other people went peacfully to ministry to homosexuals in bondage to their sin, where doing what they believed was the will of God by ministering to these people by telling them about their sin and sharing the good news of Jesus Christ and how He can free them from their sin. The problem is people love their sin and don't want to leave it and this makes people angry.So what's my point? All forms of ministry must be done. Preaching on the streets, preaching at gay festivals, preaching or "ministering" to old people who are about to die in nursing homes, telling others about the good news, WHERE EVER THEY ARE GOING TO HEAR IT. And some people will never step foot in a church. So we need to not stay in our pews. I have been on this site, and have been very convicted in my own life to get up and do some street evangelism, preaching, etc. and now I hear the opposite from many on this site about it not being the will of God??? I just don't understand why this is being discussed and said that what the Philadelphia 11 said was not the will of God. You can disagree, many disagreed with me when I was exposing the murdering of unborn babies, but I'm sure the babies who are alive today would disagree.Enough said for now.Grace,Doug

http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/000144.shtmlChristmas Baby SavedDecember 21, 2004 Wichita, KS -- Operation Rescue missionary Jeff Herzog reports that a baby was saved on Christmas Monday because of one of Operation Rescue’s signs. A Kansas couple came to George Tiller’s Women’s Health Care Services, the largest late-term abortion mill outside Communist China, for an abortion of their 5-month old pre-born child. One of the sidewalk counselors talked to the couple, who noticed the large sign that read, “Tiller the Killer Strikes Again. Butchers women. Butchers babies. Who's next?” with the enlarged photo of him unloading a botched abortion victim from the ambulance at Wesley Hospital. She explained to the couple that, in addition to the death of the baby, women have been seriously hurt by botched abortions at that abortion mill.The couple agreed to go next door to the Choices Medical Clinic, a pro-life center that offers alternatives to abortion. They received a free, 3-D ultrasound and discovered that their baby was a little boy. They decided against abortion, but had pre-paid nearly $1,000 to the mill for the cost of the abortion. The couple returned to Tiller’s to get their money back. They later explained to rescuers that while he did refund the full amount, Tiller tried to make them feel guilty about not having the abortion. He said, “You'll just go somewhere else to have the abortion.” But they told him, “No, we're keeping our baby.”As the couple was leaving, sidewalk counselors gave them gifts of baby blankets and clothing. Ironically, while the couple was receiving their gifts, Tiller left the mill and saw the young mom and dad being ministered to by the rescuers who were standing next to the sign that displayed the Tiller mishap. One of the pro-lifers noticed Tiller muttering under his breath as he drove away, apparently none too happy that another one got away. But it was a wonderful Christmas present for the rescuers who rejoiced that a precious life was spared!==========================================What then if one of the homosexual's at the Outfest was convicted of their sin and came overto one of the Christians and asked for "ministry"?Or what if someone who was convicted of sin came over to speak to Ray Comfort or Jesse or ?? is that not effective minsitry on the street? What is nobody was on the streets with the Word of God? Who is to speak the gospel of Jesus to them and how?

I have been on this site, and have been very convicted in my own life to get up and do some street evangelism, preaching, etc. and now I hear the opposite from many on this site about it not being the will of God??? I just don't understand why this is being discussed and said that what the Philadelphia 11 said was not the will of God. You can disagree, many disagreed with me when I was exposing the murdering of unborn babies, but I'm sure the babies who are alive today would disagree.Hi Bro. Doug,I think we are all in agreement that street ministry must be done. I feel the area of 'caution' not in the ministering of ministry, but in getting into areas where the object is just to confront or exercise rights or cause a scene and thereby betraying the Spirit of the Gospel. I have no idea about these folks so I am only speaking in general terms. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Paul rejoiced no matter what happened. I suppose we can do the same also. Yet, the effectiveness and the perception of Christians is at stake. Jesus was confrontational, but not unnecessarily mean or abusive. There was a purpose in all He did. A.W. Tozer once said that Truth preached by bad men is worse than error. I have seen it myself. There must be sincerity or their will be unnecessary problems. We must let the Gospel do the offending and not add to that offense by acting out of character as Christians. But, as for ministry, more is better. :-)God Bless,-Robert

While I don't quite understand what you hoped to accomplish by confronting (or "ministering to" if you prefer) homosexuals at a gay pride paradeThe Scriptures command us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." On the day in question, 30,000 lost homosexuals were gathered together in a 12 block area. It is the gospel that sets men free from the bondage of sin. Without a preacher they won't hear the good news. Look at the example we have received in the Bible of going out with the gospel. Our new methods of evangelism (inviting people to come to us) may be alright for some but I have to stick to the Bible method. By the way, this wasn't a parade. The streets were open for everyone and we went there to preach, pass out literature and talk one-on-one. It would have been a great day of ministry if we had not been assaulted by a mob ob militant "Pink Angels". To stay away from the harvest because there might be some risk would truly be criminal.

Christ's ministry was one that spoke to those that were willing to listen, not one that forced the truth into their midst. He would simply begin to speak, and those willing to hear him would stop and listen - he didn't force his message on anyone. You haven't gleaned this view from the pages of the Bible friend.The Messiah wasn't crucified and eleven of the Disciples weren't martyred because they just spoke to those who wanted to hear the message.We are to sow the seed of the gospel on all soil. We don't know which soil will be rocky, thorny or fertile. If we don't take the gospel, even to hostile environments, we aren't living as the Disciples or early Church did. We should look to the Scriptures as our example and not think that we can devise better ways than the Almighty.

"by dougkristen on 2004/12/22 10:49:11I have to be honest with this discussion and share some feelings, whether anyone cares or not.Let me give you some background. About 14 years ago, I was very involved with "pro-life" ministry., ie picketing, sidewalk counseling, blocking clincs, and exposing the dark evil deeds of baby killing in abortion clinics. Some have called this "hateful" on part of Christians and not of the will of God and not being "nice" and ministering to the needs of these women in a crisis pregnancy. Has this stopped the evil in this land of baby killing, no. Has it saved some babies from death? yes, Have some women come to know the Lord through this method of ministry, yes. And many people still do today.Do some people, christians included, disagree with "pro-life" ministry, yes. Did I believe I was obeying God and doing His will? yes. Is the gospel being preached outside the walls of our churches in this type of ministry, yes.Many people from opposing sides when I used to picket or pray or whatever at abortion clinics would say things like, "go back to your prayer closet, or go back to your church" and get off the streets! I guess what I am saying is Michael Mcarvage and the other people went peacfully to ministry to homosexuals in bondage to their sin, where doing what they believed was the will of God by ministering to these people by telling them about their sin and sharing the good news of Jesus Christ and how He can free them from their sin. The problem is people love their sin and don't want to leave it and this makes people angry.So what's my point? All forms of ministry must be done. Preaching on the streets, preaching at gay festivals, preaching or "ministering" to old people who are about to die in nursing homes, telling others about the good news, WHERE EVER THEY ARE GOING TO HEAR IT. And some people will never step foot in a church. So we need to not stay in our pews. I have been on this site, and have been very convicted in my own life to get up and do some street evangelism, preaching, etc. and now I hear the opposite from many on this site about it not being the will of God??? I just don't understand why this is being discussed and said that what the Philadelphia 11 said was not the will of God. You can disagree, many disagreed with me when I was exposing the murdering of unborn babies, but I'm sure the babies who are alive today would disagree.Enough said for now.Grace,Doug""----------------------------------------WELL SAID!

Quote:I have no idea about these folks so I am only speaking in general terms. .... I suppose we can do the same also. Yet, the effectiveness and the perception of Christians is at stake. Jesus was confrontational, but not unnecessarily mean or abusive. There was a purpose in all He did. A.W. Tozer once said that Truth preached by bad men is worse than error. I have seen it myself. There must be sincerity or their will be unnecessary problems. We must let the Gospel do the offending and not add to that offense by acting out of character as Christians. But, as for ministry, more is better. God Bless,-Robert Quote"---------------------------------------Friend,I'm not saying that you are doing this or not, but I often see Christians looking for the worst in a situation. What I mean is this. I was at the event in question. The believers were above repraoch. The world condemns us for what we did and often many in the church follow suit for no good reason. When I post about things I have seen or ministry outreaches I have been involved in, my word can be trusted and I think we should give fellow believers (the Philadelphia 11 for instance) the benefit of the doubt until we have reason to pass judgement on them. Just for the record, so that people on this site won't question the motives of those arrested, I will tell you that the only thing that drove them onto the street that day was a desire to see people set free from sin. Each of the individuals arrested are close friends of mine and I have ministered with them in many places over the years. The motives were pure and the technique was very Biblical.

Hi Denny,Your contribution is well received as it sheds much light on what really happened with the particular situation. I take you at your word. My general comments still stand. They are not intended to be judgmental. Don't be offended at what I am saying. Beyond the four walls ministries is at the very core of my calling in Christ. I encourage everyone to minister in this capacity as they have opportunity. God Bless,-Robert

Dear Denny,Fortunately I am blessed to have a brother like Robert to articulate some of the more bumbling sentiments that somehow get mangled in translating expression;I think we are all in agreement that street ministry must be done. I feel the area of 'caution' not in the ministering of ministry, but in getting into areas where the object is just to confront or exercise rights or cause a scene and thereby betraying the Spirit of the Gospel. I have no idea about these folks so I am only speaking in general terms. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Paul rejoiced no matter what happened. I suppose we can do the same also. Yet, the effectiveness and the perception of Christians is at stake. Jesus was confrontational, but not unnecessarily mean or abusive. There was a purpose in all He did. A.W. Tozer once said that Truth preached by bad men is worse than error. I have seen it myself. There must be sincerity or their will be unnecessary problems. We must let the Gospel do the offending and not add to that offense by acting out of character as Christians. But, as for ministry, more is better. Forgive me brother, I too was speaking in general terms and with only the video in mind it is difficult to get a rather full orbed view of all that is taking place. Just food for thought and a different perspective. But really don't have any ground to speak from, comments from the peanut gallery likely sound hallow to those that were there and I appreciate your approach to us, your patience. You folks were out there, my two bits are of no consequence whatsoever. The absurdity of what is now taking place with these charges is beyond ridiculous, I cannot see how in the world this could be considered 'justice' when we let off criminals for serious crimes with hardly a slap on the wrist. My prayers have been and will continue to be with you all. I regret even bringing up my own miserable 'opinion' in the whole matter, there is really nothing to defend and the application likely misappropriated.Again from Robert:Your contribution is well received as it sheds much light on what really happened with the particular situation. I take you at your word. Me too and forgive me Denny, didn't mean to add to the situation. I learned something from all of this. And thanks Robert for making sense where I failed.

Hi Bro Mike, Denny, and Doug,I wanted to express also that I am not in any way trying to elevate one ministry over another and apologize if I came off that way. ALL of our ministries are valid expressions of the body. We need each other. I appreciate everyone in ministry. I greatly enjoy the testimonies of what God is doing in the lives of the Saints and through the Saints. God Bless,-Robert

Blessings to all of you guys.Denny

Center for Law and PolicyPress ReleaseJustifying Effort to Jail Christians, Officials Make Baseless ClaimsAmerican Family AssociationP.O. Drawer 2440Tupelo, MS 388031-662-680-3886 For Immediate Release: 12/22/2004 Tupelo, MS - “We have videotape of the entire incident, the city has a videotape of the entire incident, the facts are before the nation, and the unimpeachable facts conclusively establish that this City is out of control.” – Brian Fahling, AFA Center for Law and Policy Senior Trial Attorney. Philadelphia city officials now claim that a videotape of the events leading up to the arrests of 11 Christians does not reflect one of the Philly 11, Michael Marcavage, allegedly interrupting an onstage performance at the “Outfest” where the events took place. City officials told the Philadelphia Inquirer that the video did not show the start of the confrontation, when they allege Marcavage tried to interrupt an onstageperformance with his preaching. They maintain that he then disobeyed a police order to move to the perimeter of the "block party" to avoid the potential for violence. AFA senior trial attorney, Brian Fahling, called the claim “absurd,” saying, “the videotape made by the independent film company out of San Francisco (Enough SaidProductions) is complete and the city knows it. We have videotape of the entire incident, the city has a videotape of the entire incident (taken by a police officer), the truth is before the nation; and the unimpeachable facts conclusively establish that the City of Philadelphia is utterly out of control.” “The good news is that the videotape speaks for itself; neither the city nor the state or federal courts can change the truth seen in that video,” said Tim Wildmon,president of the American Family Association. “This case is historic for all the wrong reasons and we will not idly stand by to watch this unprecedented persecutionof Christians.” The Christians were arrested on October 10 for praying, singing, and reading scripture during an annual “gay pride” event known as “Outfest” in Philadelphia.Tuesday a city prosecutor argued to a judge that Bible verses are “fighting” words. The charges include three felony (criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, andriot) and five misdemeanor charges. If convicted, they could face up to 47 years in prison.

http://www.afa.net/clp/philly4.aspThe Philadelphia FourAct Now! After reading below, please contact Assistant Attorney General, R. Alexander Acosta, at the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice and ask him to investigate this profound abuse of power and violation of constitutional rights. Assistant Attorney GeneralR. Alexander AcostaU.S. Department of JusticeCivil Rights Division950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.Office of the Assistant Attorney General, MainWashington, D.C. 20530Phone:(202) 514-2151E-mail: AskDOJ@usdoj.govPlease pray for the Philadelphia Four: Michael Marcavage, Mark Diener, James Cruse, and Dennis Green. Eleven Christians were arrested on October 10 for praying, singing, and reading scriptures during an annual "gay pride" event known as "Outfest" in Philadelphia. Four out of the eleven were ordered on Tuesday, December 14 to stand trial because they were seen quoting scripture on a video. The charges include three felony (criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot) and five misdemeanor charges. If convicted, they could face up to 47 years in prison! The Philadelphia judge and prosecutor have labeled the Bible hate speech and called Bible verses "fighting words." The Pink Angels, homosexual activists, did everything they could to obstruct, impede, and frustrate the Christians from sharing the gospel in a public forum, yet no arrests or citations were placed on the Pink Angels. This is the clearest example of anti-Christian bigotry by city officials in the last century! Video Footage The following video footage from “Outfest” shows Michael Marcavage with a bullhorn attempting to sing and speak the gospel. The people in pink are the Pink Angels, and they are using 10 feet tall Styrofoam boards surrounding the Christians to block their signs, impede their movement, and prevent people from seeing them. The loud noises you hear are the Pink Angels blowing whistles and horns to drown out the Christians’ message. Video - Windows Media Format videoAmerican Family Radio - AFA Report Audio - Windows Media Format (12/15/2004)http://www.afr.net/audio/afaReport/rpt121504.wmaInterview with AFA Center for Law & Policy attorney Joe Murray: The Ringing of the Liberty Bell falls on deaf ears: Federal Courts refuse to aid 11 Christians Homosexual man writes to support us Click here to see the letterhttp://www.afa.net/clp/philly4_email.asp

http://washingtontimes.com/culture/20041228-102341-4050r.htmCriminalized thoughts?By Amy DoolittleTHE WASHINGTON TIMESJokes about political correctness have been around for more than a decade, and many Americans now take for granted conflicts over manger scenes on public property and Christmas carols in public schools. Hostility toward religious expression is no joke, however, to advocates concerned that "hate crimes" laws could be used to rob Americans of religious freedom, which they say is already the case in some parts of Europe. Exhibit A: Ake Green, a Swedish pastor who was arrested for speaking against homosexuality from his church pulpit. While American hate-crime laws currently punish criminal acts motivated by bigotry, William Murray, chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, says the principle behind such statutes could be "worse than a slippery slope" toward restricting fundamental freedoms. "In the '40s, '50s, '60s and even '70s, we were taught that the difference between the free world and the communist bloc was that in the free world if you committed a crime, you were going to go to jail for what you did, but in the Soviet Union and other countries, you would go to jail for what you thought," Mr. Murray said. "Hate-crimes laws are not really hate-crimes laws — they are really hate-thought laws," Mr. Murray says. "We have a movement in the entire Western world ... for people to go to jail for what they think." It is not mere speculation to think that hate-crimes laws could be used to quash free speech, he says, citing an October protest in Philadelphia. On "National Coming Out Day," a Christian group held a demonstration on a public walkway outside a homosexual-activism event called "Outfest." Protesters at the Oct. 10 event were informed by police that they could stand wherever they wanted, since the festival was being held on public sidewalks. However, when their demonstration was interrupted by a group called "the Pink Angels," the police ordered the Christian group to relocate and later arrested them. Ten of the demonstrators were held for 21 hours and released; one member of the group was held for 10 days because of confusion involving an outstanding parking ticket. All were charged with eight criminal counts, including "ethnic intimidation," a second-degree felony. The Philadelphia case, says Mr. Murray, is the perfect example of the "hate crime" mentality gone bad. The movement from a "hate crime" to a "hate thought" is "worse than a slippery slope," Mr. Murray says. "A slippery slope you go down slowly — this thing is a cliff. These people were peaceably demonstrating, but they were demonstrating for something that was politically incorrect." That the Philadelphia demonstrators were charged with a hate crime based on speech does not fall in line with the specifics of Pennsylvania's law against ethnic intimidation, says Brain Fahling, attorney for the protesters. He says they will not be convicted of the charged crimes because they didn't commit them. "The ethnic-intimidation law has conduct associated with it, which means that to be guilty of it requires something more than speech," Mr. Fahling says. A videotape made by an independent San Francisco film company of the protest and subsequent arrest shows no hate actions at all, says Mr. Fahling, just a group of people proclaiming their religious beliefs. "There is nothing in that videotape that would demonstrate that my clients did anything other than exercise the rights the constitution allows them to exercise," he says. But Christians aren't the only ones who think that hate-crimes law should not dictate thoughts. Joe Perez, owner and contributing writer of the Gay Spirituality & Culture blog (www.gayspirituality.typepad.com) says he understands that every person has a right to speak what he or she thinks to be true, even if it makes him uncomfortable. "Hate speech is not a behavior that I ... want to see made illegal. The line that's drawn in the United States is generally between the speech that is simply offensive to a great number of people and speech that incites violence within a group — and that's a line that I feel comfortable with," Mr. Perez says. "If someone says that I think a group is wrong, or a group is acting immorally, or a group is wicked, or evil or condemned to hell, I may find that offensive and objectionable, but I don't think it should be illegal." In fact, as Mr. Perez argues that condemning Christians for speaking against homosexuals is no different than condemning homosexuals for speaking against Christians. "Can you imagine the outrage if a Christian fundamentalist intruded in a private gathering of queer activists, overheard a speaker say, 'Fundamentalism represents an abnormal, a horrible, cancerous tumor in the body of society,' reported him to the authorities, and then the laws of our land permitted the speaker to be arrested and imprisoned for a month?" he writes on his Web log. "That speaker would become a martyr and hero to the cause, a victim of the unjust, evil times in which we live and rage would ferment against our 'enemies' and all that they represent." Mr. Perez also warns that laws that punish ideas are not only unfair, but are counterproductive. "Using the laws of a state to imprison folks who do not understand or agree with us, or who say mean-spirited things, cannot create a culture that makes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender folks safer and more secure," he says. "Instead, it will taint all lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender activism with the stench of extreme political correctness gone amok."

Every one need s to know that these brothers and sisters would certainly sense a conviction and leading of the Holy Spirit to do something like this. The legal process is just and unavoidable process in the working out or makeing full proof of that work. I usually take people and thier callings by faith and try hard not to judge another mans servant, so to speak.However in Cincinatti Oh a preacher was arrested and charged for hate speach crimes because he preached in a church, from a pulpit against homosexuality. The case is still in the process.So guess what?Like it or not we'er in a bigger battle than what most christians realize. If we don't exercise what legal rights we have now, in America it'll be against the law to preach against sin.Best thing is to take these things serious not letting satan accuse the brothers motives to your hearts and just pray for them and support them in any other way you feel a conviction to.

We had to appear in court on Wednesday, Jan 5 to find out when our court date would be.The court then told us that they had not yet scheduled our trial and that we would have to return next week. That's a six hour drive for two of us. We are thankful that the Bail Comissioner did grant the request of our attorney that we be allowed to be absent next week for the formality.Our Attorney has also filed a motion that the condition of bail that prohibits us from ministering at homosexual events be rescinded.Please pray to that end.

BTW did you know that it says to use strong persuasive aguements to compell them to come in? What the church of Jesus Christ fails to see is that thier blood(EVERYONE WE PASS EVERY DAY) will be required at our hands if we won't speak up.Mk16:15 GO into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation./Matt 28:GO therefore... I wonder if he was asking us or commanding us , now I'm playing the fool.

I don't know if this has been addressed yet so if it has please disregard it. I received this in an e-mail this morning from a fellow believer who knows nothing about the discussions of this thread. They are quite concerned about the handling of this by the Justice Department God Bless,-Robert

Homosexuals plannedChristian harassment'OutFest' organizers announced effortsto block protesters now facing prison--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: January 10, 20051:00 a.m. Eastern© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com Homosexual "OutFest" organizers in Philadelphia announced plans in advance of their October 2004 street festival to block Christians from access to the publicly sponsored event where 11 members of Repent America were arrested, five being charged with a series of misdemeanors and felonies that could put them in jail for 47 years. As WorldNetDaily reported, the group was "preaching God's Word" to a crowd of people attending the Oct. 10, 2004, event and displaying banners with biblical messages. After a confrontation with a group called the Pink Angels, described by protesters as "a militant mob of homosexuals," the 11 Christians, members of Repent America, were arrested and taken into custody. Eight charges were filed: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. None of the Pink Angels were cited or arrested. After a preliminary hearing in December, Judge William Austin Meehan ordered four of the adult Christians to stand trial on three felony and five misdemeanor charges. If convicted, they could get a maximum of 47 years in prison. A fifth juvenile has been ordered to stand trial in the juvenile justice system facing the same eight counts. But, according to an article in the Philadelphia Gay News days before the street festival, homosexual organizers were planning to block Christians from access to the event. Chuck Volz, senior adviser to Philly Pride Presents, told the publication the Pink Angels security force would carry large signs alongside the Christians to surround them and block their access to OutFest participants. "We'll have a pink wall around them," he said. "Hopefully, they will be so frustrated they won't come again. Talking to a piece of Styrofoam is not the same as talking to a crowd of people." Volz also made clear that "diversity" was not the goal of the street festival. "It's our event, and we're not going to permit vendors or community groups that conflict with the theme of the event," he said. He said welcoming Christians to the street festival would be analogous to a black event welcoming white supremacists. Police said they would have cordoned off the permitted area for OutFest, preventing protesters from attending, had event organizers obtained an injunction from a judge. But OutFest organizers did not get an injunction. Dan Anders, an attorney for Philly Pride Presents, said: "Our position is that they are not welcome to attend, they haven't been invited to attend, and we would rather that they protest the event from outside the permitted area." Volz admitted in the report that OutFest organizers didn't have a leg to stand on in keeping out people exercising their First Amendment rights in a public venue. "Given the parameters of the First Amendment, there's no way to keep them out," he said. "I think the gay community should understand that the gay-rights movement has succeeded because people are permitted free speech under the First Amendment. We can't be in a position of denying people the right to compete with us in the marketplace of ideas." "This is one of the most remarkable and unlawful actions by police that I have ever witnessed," said Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. "Their blatant disregard of the law by allowing hecklers to impede our way, block our message and then arrest us, is inexcusable, especially by police officers who are specially trained to protect civil rights. "Christians are now being labeled as 'haters' and any speech that homosexuals perceive to be intimidating, such as our Christian witness at OutFest, makes them a prime target for 'hate crimes legislation.'" Continued Marcavage: "We are clearly 'not guilty' of these crimes, and with the help of our video footage, we shall be vindicated of these trumped-up charges." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42287

'Philadelphia 5' arrests like 'Christian Rodney King'Documentary producer happened to be filming protesters day of 'gay' event--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: January 12, 20051:00 a.m. EasternBy Ron Strom© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com A documentary filmmaker who happened to be interviewing the leader of 11 Christian protesters on the day they were arrested at an outdoor homosexual event in Philadelphia says the extent of the charges against five of the people – which could lead to 47 years in prison – amounted to a "Christian Rodney King" scenario. As WorldNetDaily reported, on Oct. 10, the group was "preaching God's Word" to a crowd of people attending the Philadelphia event and displaying banners with biblical messages. After a confrontation with a group called the Pink Angels, described by protesters as "a militant mob of homosexuals," the Christians were arrested and spent a night in jail. Eight charges were filed: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. None of the Pink Angels was cited or arrested. After a preliminary hearing in December, Judge William Austin Meehan ordered four of the Christians to stand trial on three felony and five misdemeanor charges. If convicted, they could get a maximum of 47 years in prison. One female teenage protester faces charges in the juvenile justice system. Right place at the right time Mike Shaw and his partner, Geoff Callan, operate Enough Said Productions in San Francisco. Shaw says he had no prior connection to the protest group from Repent America, but simply wanted to interview its leader, Michael Marcavage, for a documentary he was working on about same-sex marriage protests in California. "Repent America came to San Francisco protesting what was going on with same-sex marriage," Shaw told WND. He says he contacted Marcavage to see if he might interview him and find out more about the organization. "We just wanted to have an understanding about who these people were." The weekend Shaw and Callan flew to Philadelphia happened to be the same weekend Repent America had planned to protest the homosexual "OutFest" event. "So here we are to film [Marcavage] so he can have his voice over his actions in San Francisco on our documentary," Shaw explained. "We didn't want our piece to be one-sided, so we figured they'd be a good fit in our documentary." Shaw said he began filming Marcavage in his truck while the activist was driving to Outfest in Philadelphia. Marcavage explained to the filmmaker what Repent America does in calling people to turn from their sinful lifestyles, as they did in the San Francisco protest. "He had a wireless microphone on him," he said. "We got out of the car, and the rest of what happened is on the videotape. "Since Michael had a wireless on him, I just sat on the side and zoomed in, capturing the conversation." Shaw's videotape of the confrontation, which is available online, was used by the protesters' lawyers during the preliminary hearing. There likely would not have been a taped record of the Christians' arrest had Shaw not have been in Philadelphia to interview Marcavage. "The footage is telling the truth," he explained. "It's very unbiased because we were not there for Repent America in the sense that we were trying to help them." Nearly arrested Despite Shaw's presence at the protest as an objective filmmaker, he says police tried to arrest him. "They tried to arrest me and say I was an accomplice," he said. "I held up my ID and said, 'We're from San Francisco.' "We come from the gayest city in America," Shaw said. "Why would we go there to go after these people at their OutFest?" Shaw says he almost didn't make it out without being arrested. "I had one foot in the paddy wagon," he said. "They were making me take my camera and headphones off" before finally being given a reprieve. The filmmaker said he was surprised the protesters were charged with so many criminal counts. "I've seen a lot of people from where we're from do a lot worse things and get in a lot less trouble," he said. "Everyone thought they'd just get a slap on the wrist." He also mentioned how quickly the protesters were arrested, saying it was only 35 minutes from the time they left their cars until they were on the way to jail. "They didn't really even get set up," he said. "The other side [the Pink Angels] was so ready for them. … They didn't even get a whole song finished" before the conflict began. Besides quoting the Bible, Repent America protesters sing Christian songs at protests. Shaw says he had to pick up the protesters' signs after they were hauled away and try to get them back to them. After the protesters were released from jail the next morning, Shaw met up with Marcavage and filmed him as he found out about how many felony charges he was facing. "He was like, 'Oh my gosh, this is huge,'" Shaw said. That's when the filmmaker decided to offer the tape as evidence in court. He also decided to make a separate documentary about the arrests of the protesters. "We're fixing the audio levels and putting out a documentary," he said. Shaw says he sees the arrest as a "Christian Rodney King." "They didn't get hit physically," he said, "they got hit by the extent of the charges against them. … When I saw the charges and the 47 years I was like, 'Wow.'" Shaw said he thought the whole situation odd because the homosexuals were not the minority, as they are used to. "They were the majority" he told WND. "I think there was some hostility and people venting because they had the numbers. … They didn't want anyone ruining their day." Shaw says he was happy to offer the video to the arrestees. "The footage speaks for itself," he emphasized. "You make the call. We kept it rolling." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42337WorldNet Daily

I just got word that the trial date has been set for Lauren Murch, the 17 year old girl who was arrested with us. It is set for Feb.18.http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.comLife and Liberty Ministries

Hi Denny,Think something got lost in that link.Here is the main site though;http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/

Top StoriesJail Marcavage? ACLU-gotta be kidding Gil Spencer, Times Columnist01/14/2005 In an elevator on his way down from Courtroom 504 in the Criminal Justice Center in Philadelphia Wednesday, a reporter is asking Michael Marcavage about his religious convictions.The elevator is stuffed with people, and Marcavage, 25, a good-natured but determined Christian soldier, doesn’t hesitate to discuss the religious and cultural "war" in which he’s engaged. His mission is to save souls. The Bible tells him to be a "light in the darkness .. and that a "river of fire" awaits those sinners who don’t repent ..yadda, yadda, yadda. We finally reach the first floor. If anything ought to be illegal, I tell Marcavage, it’s preaching in a crowded elevator. Advertisement Marcavage smiles.For a man who faces a possible 47 years in prison, Marcavage is a pretty happy guy. Perhaps because the likelihood of him doing any jail time at all seems exceedingly small. The charges brought against him by the Philadelphia District Attorney’s office (felony rioting, possession of an instrument of crime, conspiracy and ethnic intimidation) are so obviously trumped up that it will take a real miscarriage of justice to incarcerate him.The charges stem from Marcavage showing up at a gay pride event called "Outfest" and preaching that homosexual conduct is a sin. He was joined by 10 other members of his group, Repent America, there last October.The group’s message was not well-received by the event organizers, who sought to surround the group and drown out their leader’s biblical recitations.City police, who were supposed to be there to make sure peace was maintained and everyone’s civil rights were upheld, instead moved against the protesters. Marcavage and the others were arrested. As they were taken away, the Outfesters, of course, cheered."We have a right to have a party," said Franny Price, an organizer of the event.Yes they do. But they don’t have the "right" to be protected from the religious views of any citizen who cares to share them. Not if "Outfest" is going have its "party" in a public place, on a public street -- funded, by the way, with public dollars.If Philadelphia’s gay community wanted to throw a party to celebrate gayness with no risk of party poopers, they should have rented a hall, with their own money, and taken it inside. There, they would be free to exclude anybody whose opinions and beliefs offended them.But if you want to put on a public demonstration to celebrate something that a large number of people in this country still seem to think of as sinful, well, you take your chances that somebody is going to show up and tell you where they think you’ve gone wrong. It would be nice to know where the American Civil Liberties Union comes down in all of this. I called the Philadelphia office yesterday but didn’t hear back.But on its national Web page, the ACLU states:"It is probably no accident that freedom of speech is the first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment ..Uh, no it’s not. The first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment is freedom of religion. That the ACLU has now seen fit to edit the Bill of Rights to exclude it says a lot about that once-august organization.The ACLU once had the guts to stand up for the right of Nazis to march in America. Today, in this case, the ACLU is AWOL. Doesn’t a Christian in this country have the same civil rights as a Nazi?Even if you think Marcavage is a nut, he’s a clever nut. His case not only shows the fearful intolerance of some in the gay community, but their influence in Philadelphia to silence and even have arrested their perceived enemies. People who truly appreciate the First Amendment understand that it can’t be selectively applied or ignored by government officials. There have to be a good number of gay men and women who disagree with serious charges levied against Marcavage and the others; gays who understand that if a religious zealot’s rights can be violated with impunity by the police and D.A.’s office, so can theirs. They should speak up.Wednesday afternoon, watching Marcavage and fellow defendant Mark Diener, Bibles in hand, being interviewed by the media in front of the courthouse, a well-dressed passerby offered his opinion on the matter."It scares me how close those guys are to the Taliban," he said.We amicably agreed to disagree.It was a foggy day in the city. So foggy you couldn’t see Billy Penn’s feet.A different sort of fog seems to be clouding the minds of some would-be liberal lawyers when it comes to this prosecution. It’ll be nice when it finally lifts.Delaware County Times

Judge eases curbs on protestersBail condition barring the "Philadelphia Four" from gay events violated rights to free speech, ruling says.By Larry EichelInquirer Staff WriterIn a case that has received national attention, a Philadelphia judge yesterday revoked a bail condition that had kept four antigay activists away from organized gay events, calling the restriction an unreasonable restraint on free speech.She also indicated she might be inclined to dismiss the entire case.The decision by Common Pleas Court Judge Pamela Dembe came in the case of the so-called Philadelphia Four. They are facing a variety of charges, including felonies, in connection with their behavior at the gay and lesbian community's Outfest celebration last fall."We cannot restrict people's right to speak or to be near those who might not wish to hear them into the future," Dembe said. The limit had been put in place last month by Municipal Court Judge William A. Meehan against the demonstrators, who are affiliated with a local group called Repent America and who say their opposition to homosexuality is Bible-based.After viewing a 22-minute videotape of the events leading to the defendants' arrest, Dembe said: "It all amounted to annoyance on both sides, but it did not amount to criminal behavior that I can see."Cathie Abookire, a spokeswoman for District Attorney Lynne M. Abraham, said that the prosecution would proceed with the case. A pretrial hearing is scheduled next month, at which Dembe is to hear arguments on dismissing the charges.The activists, led by Michael Marcavage of Lansdowne, say they are being prosecuted for preaching the Gospel, a claim that has won them considerable support among conservative Christian groups around the country.During the hearing yesterday, Assistant District Attorney Charles Ehrlich said that the criminal charges were based not on what the defendants said at Outfest but on their conduct."Mr. Marcavage's conduct is to try to incite a crowd to cause a public disturbance... whether it's from the Bible or somewhere else," Ehrlich said.Marcavage faces felony charges of criminal conspiracy, incitement to riot, and violating the state's law against hate crimes, plus five misdemeanors.Felony charges (but not the misdemeanors) have been dismissed against the other three, though they remain in place against a 17-year-old girl who demonstrated.The activists were arrested after refusing a police order to move to an area farther from the center of the Outfest celebration, which covered eight blocks of Center City.Police said they were concerned about possible violence; the activists were being followed by counterprotesters using pink insulation boards and whistles to prevent the antigay words and signs from being being seen or heard.During the hearing, the defendants' attorney, C. Scott Shields, said the bail condition preventing his clients from getting with 100 feet of any gay event had effectively "muzzled" them, "and that's unconstitutional as a prior restraint."In addition, Shields argued that Marcavage and the other defendants were within their rights to go to Outfest with their bullhorn because the festival was a public event held on public streets. The legal situation would have been different, he said, had the event taken place in a private venue.Ehrlich sought to defend the restriction by citing a federal case decided last summer by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit. In Frye v. Kansas City, Mo., that court ruled that local police, for reasons of public safety, could restrict the whereabouts of antiabortion demonstrators on public streets.Paraphrasing the majority opinion in that case and from several rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, Ehrlich said: "No one has the right to say whatever they want wherever they want."Marcavage, 25, called the ruling a blessing. The other adult defendants are James Cruise, 53, of Richmond, Va.; Mark Diener, 33, of Ephrata; and Dennis Green, 38, of Petersburg, Va.http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/10705185.htmhttp://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/10705185.htm

Judge rules against Christians who preached to homosexualsFebruary 04, 2005 'Philly 5' lose round in federal court, prosecutors get away with calling defendants' words 'hateful' In another blow to the "Philly 5" – the Philadelphia Christians facing possible 47 year jail terms for evangelizing at a homosexual event – a federal judge has refused a request to stop the local prosecution of the group. Judge Petrese B. Tucker, for the second time, has refused to sanction the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office for what the Christians' attorneys say are "retaliatory criminal proceedings." According to the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, which is representing the Christians on the federal level, Tucker denied the request for relief last week, saying the Philly 5 had "insufficient evidence ... regarding why any of the defendants would want to stifle their First Amendment rights." The group's attorneys had presented as evidence their clients' First Amendment rights were violated the fact that Assistant District Attorney Charles Ehrlich told an earlier court proceeding the Christians' religious speech was "hateful, disgusting, despicable words," and "fighting words." As WorldNetDaily reported, on Oct. 10, a group of 11 Christians was "preaching God's Word" to a crowd of people attending the Philadelphia "OutFest" event and displaying banners with biblical messages. After a confrontation with a group called the Pink Angels, described by protesters as "a militant mob of homosexuals," the Christians were arrested and spent a night in jail. Eight charges were filed: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. None of the Pink Angels was cited or arrested. After a preliminary hearing in December, Judge William Austin Meehan ordered four of the Christians to stand trial on three felony and five misdemeanor charges. If convicted, they could each get a maximum of 47 years in prison. One female teenage protester faces charges in the juvenile justice system. Brian Fahling is senior trial attorney for the law center. Said Fahling in a statement: "The law requires us to show bad faith or retaliation by the D.A.'s office; we established that beyond argument with a videotape of the entire incident that shows our clients peacefully exercising their First Amendment rights, then being arrested and charged with crimes that carry a potential for 47 years imprisonment, and a district attorney's office that retaliated against them because it hates their speech. "It is difficult to conceive of more compelling evidence of bad faith and retaliation than what we have presented to the court in this case." Fahling colleague Michael DePrimo added: "There has never been a stronger case for federal court intervention based upon allegations of bad faith and retaliation than [the Philly 5] presented to Judge Tucker. … Prior to taking the bench, Judge Tucker was an assistant district attorney for Philadelphia for eight years; she is undoubtedly aware that peaceful expression of First Amendment rights is not criminal." The next hearing date scheduled for the Christians is Feb. 17, when the court will consider their motion to dismiss the case. Seventeen-year-old Lauren Murch's trial date is Feb. 18. WorldNet Daily

Bill Would Strip 'Sexual Orientation' from PA's Hate Crimes LawFebruary 10, 2005 By Ed Thomas(AgapePress) - Legislators in Pennsylvania have introduced a bill designed to remove language from a state "hate crimes" law that was used against Christian protestors in the "Outfest" case in Philadelphia. The arrests of the Christians allowed political opponents of the hate crimes law to say their warnings were ignored.House Bill 1493 became Act 143 of the Pennsylvania Hate Crimes Law in November 2002 and added "sexual orientation" protection to the law. Legislators and other opponents -- like Diane Gramley of the American Family Association of Pennsylvania -- warned then that the law could be used against the First Amendment rights of Christians, a charge sponsors adamantly denied was the intent. She even recalls one of the measure's supporters accusing opponents of having "an active imagination," and saying the bill was about "thugs, hooligans, murderers, and blood in the street," not about infringing on the rights of Christians.That was until the pro-homosexual Outfest event in October 2004, when the "ethnic intimidation" charge against the arrested Christians was drawn from Act 143. Gramley says opponents of the measure now have the proof they need -- and 17 of them have co-sponsored House Bill 204."[This bill] removes the wording that was added back in November 2002 [when] 'actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender, and gender identity' [were added]," she explains.State Representative Tom Yewcic was to introduce the new bill today (February 7) at a capital news conference. Gramley calls the lawmakers' move a "bold step in restoring the First Amendment rights of Pennsylvania's Christians."Five of the Christians arrested at the Outfest event are stilling facing 47 years in prison and fines up to $90,000 each. Those who were arrested committed no violence against homosexuals at the gathering. However, a city prosecutor declared that the bullhorn used by one of the Christians was an "instrument of crime."Agape Press

BrethrenI have a question. Why is it that we seem to be focusing more on the sin of gay and lesbianism wile neglecting other things like, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying etc which are sin also in God's eyes? are we so adamant against these our brethren (for they are our brethren also) because they are committing a sin that we are not so we feel we are better? We should also look as citically if not more critically on our own lives so that we may also be cleansed of our sins should we not?any thoughts?

This thread is focusing on the homosexual issue because the arrests are tied to it. The ministry I am affiliated with reaches out to all sinners. We do evangelize homosexuals but we also reach out at abortion clinics, high schools, colleges, street corners etc. When one ministers to the general public, he will address all of the sins you mentioned.Sins like, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying etc. are addressed all of the time from the pulpit. The desparate need nowadays is to take the Gospel out of the church and into the street where the lost reside. The Gospel does not call a practicing sodomite, "our brethren", and neither should we. When one is born again, he becomes a new creature and the old will pass away. To live in the ongoing sin of homosexuality is to prove that you are not a follower of Messiah. The gate is strait and the way is narrow. The sin of homosexuality is different in one way than the other sins you mentioned. It is celebrated in the street. It is pushed in our schools. How often do you hear of festivals held for theives or liers? The homosexual movment is powerful and it is making headway in our nation. It will take a bold Church, unashamed of the Gospel to stop its advance and win its adherents to Christ.

Several of our friends and supporters have asked about coming to Philadelphia in support of the Philadelphia 5, during our trial.We would appreciate your prayers and your presence this Thursday and Friday (Feb. 17-18). On Thursday, Feb. 17, there will be a hearing on a Motion to Dismiss in the Courtroom of Judge Patricia Dembe. If The Judge grants this Motion, the charges will be dismissed. If, however, the Judge refuses, the case will go on to trial. The hearing will be in the Criminal Justice Center, 1313 Filbert Street, Philadelphia (right next door to City Hall). It will be in Courtroom 707 and will start at about 9-930.The Courtrooms are small and the seating will be on a first come basis. Those who come in support will gather in the large hallway outside of the courtroom. There may also be supporters on the street in front of the courthouse.On Friday, Feb. 18, Lauren Murch is to appear for trial in the Juvenile Court. She is still being charged with three felonies and five misdemeanors.Dennis GreenLife and Liberty MinistriesLife and Liberty Ministries

I just recieved this note from the father of Lauren Murch (one of the Philadelphia 5)-------------------------------------Breaking News! I was contacted by the Philadelphia attorney and told that the Prosecutor in Lauren's case has said he will drop the charges. It is not yet official, the charges have not yet actually been dropped, and we may still have to appear in court on the 18th, but this is excellent news! In further good news, it is becoming evident what God's plan was in all of this. So far, 17 Pennsylvania legislators, led by a Democrat, have drafted a bill removing "sexual orientation" from their hate crimes legislation, that they just put in there back in 2002! Furthermore, the reason they are doing it is because of this case! The very first time it was invoked, it was so badly abused, and brought such overwhelmingly negative publicity to the State and the City, they have decided to mount a move to trash the language they fought so hard to have put in! Let's pray they are successful.--------------------------------------------For the latest news on this case, visit:Life and Liberty Ministries