Why we are losing our children

I just watched this movie and I was impressed by how it was well done. I recommend it to everyone. It basically looks at the failure of youth groups who actually usurp the biblical role of fathers in training children.

http://www.dividedthemovie.com/

Excellent and desperately needed.

I wonder why there is even a need for youth ministry. Is it just a bandaid for the problem as a whole?

StarofGod,

Indeed, many seem to think that it's better to segregate by age, since old people do not share the same interests as young people. This seems like worldly wisdom to me. What are those "interests" after all? Music? Football? The beach? Cars? Dating?

Why not redirect our focus from whatever worldly pursuits we may have to Christ? Personally, I don't go to church to set my mind on the things of the world; I go to church to set my mind on the things of God.

Also, let us not forget that whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.
(Proverbs 13:20) Thus, we are actually harming our children by constantly keeping them with other immature kids. Instead, they should learn from the wise.

In Christ Jesus,
Renoncer

Hum, I always find it silly to try and find away to blame something or someone for how our children turn out. Youth Ministries wouldn't have the ability to usurp a fathers role is the father was active and faithful in his role of training up his child.

Do you know why children at a certain age just go against the grain of Christianity? Why they rebel? Stick it to the man if you will? It is because kids are smart enough to see through religion, point blank. Kids want something real and tangible and honest, they see mom and dad fight all weak but then at church they just love each other sooooo much, FAKE, FONIES, LIARS, HYPOCRITES this is what is playing in the childs mind. How do I know this? because not to long ago I was a child though its been a while.

Now being a dad I face the fear of not passing on my Christian faith to my children, not so much not passing it on but under the brutal honesty of my children will they see Christ in me? What parents lack in doing isn't passing on their religion thats easy just force them to church and pray before eating a meal, from their you can simply program them to say answer to the questions What did Jesus do you for? and Why did He die?

No, Christ must get a hold of our Children just as much as he needs to get a hold of us. However the true hinderance is the insecurity of a worries parent that force feeds their children and pushes religion on them instead of taking their child in the prayer closet with them and showing them what communicating with a Holy God looks and feels like on top of the life that is produced from such acts. This is why little Johnny the good little boy slowly become the rebel without a cause, because he was never really introduced to Jesus by contact with The Lord through his parents.

Seriously to blame a youth ministry is silly because you get to be around your kid a great deal more than a youth pastor, they only get about 1 to 2 hours a week. The real damage is done at home. If you are going to blame anyone for your children being unruly wretches blame yourself and pray the Lord have mercy on you and your children.

while some are always renouncing what is going on and never telling any tales of success, i would like to share about a church i was a part of while i was mobile. i will use the term we...we have a strong training for youth leaders,we have hundreds of cell groups around the city and in every jr high and high school and in the universities here there are over 7000 youth in our 220 groups. the teachers and principles love us because we not only minister the gospel but help troubled students and failing students with free tutoring.some have even allowed us to minister in assembies with invitations at the end. these kids are on fire with the Lord and we are turning drug infested areas into Christ infested areas. get off of your high horse and get involved in making a difference in the youth of your city. the training must include how to serve in the most lowly way.(picking up trash around the schools and neighborhoods, help keeping the restrooms clean, these are things that parents are not teaching their spoiled kids these days and if you can not do the most humiliating work how are you going to minister to others )we also have intense bible training that also must be joined by dress codes that are modest and clean.not all make it in the 220i "intense training" for the youth ministers.jimp

You have hit the nail on the head: the home.

God bless,
Lisa

"Excellent and desperately needed."

AGREED!!!

See:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36844&forum=35&19

Savannah,
I listened to the sermon you posted on the other thread http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=621092034462
One thing the pastor said struck me in particular:
“Are we feeding the sheep, or entertaining goats in our modern church? The modern philosophy is to appeal to the flesh, and then sneak up on the youth with the Gospel. That is deceitful, and that is out of hell.”
Robert W. Reed

I agree that this is a big problem in the churches today. I often hear people apologizing for having to share the Gospel or say something that may offend the crowd. Usually, the Gospel is presented in a very carnal way, that is, in a way to appeal to the flesh so that people can “make a decision”. Such a decision is often just that: “Fleshly”, and not of God. (See John 1:12-13)

I admit that I have had to fight against these tendencies too. I have been involved in several evangelistic campaigns myself. The Lord dealt with me about being ashamed of the Gospel. He convicted me with regards to trying to make the Gospel appealing and inoffensive to the masses. Such a “Gospel” is actually stripped from its power. (1 Corinthians 1:17-18) As much as I would like more people to “respond”, the question remains, “What are they responding to?” This is a matter of trusting God at His word, and not leaning on our own understanding.
God is wiser; let us trust Him concerning the means of salvation. And yes, it requires faith.

In Christ Jesus,
Renoncer

Mguldner and Lysa,

I agree, it comes back to the home. That's the same conclusion the documentary came to. In particular, the fathers have a tremendous responsibility towards their children.

In Christ,
Renoncer

I just watched this as well. It was one of the things that in pushing me towards not being involved in the youth ministry in our church.
I would much rather see our youth in with the adults/elderly Sunday schools and Bible studies/home groups. There is soooo much wisdom there. The problem goes back to what Renoncer said about using fleshly means to appeal to people, especially youth. The youth want worldly fun and if your with the adults you can't have fun.
Our church always has outreaches to youth, especially to kids. So we have a lot of unchurched kids without parents in the church. This makes for HUGE problems. I think instead of outreaches to the kids we need outreaches to the FATHERS. I don't know about you guys, but where I live most of the churches pour TONS of time and money into youth and children's ministry and almost nothing into ministry to fathers/parents/families.

So maybe the question isn't, "Why is there youth group/ministry?" but rather "Why ISN'T there ministry to the fathers and families?"
Why DO we try to evangelize youth and children instead of fathers and mothers? I believe it's because it's less work. The children are willing to make a confession of faith (not necessarily actually being born again) where the parents are not. So it is alot easier to get numbers with kids than with adults. And it is less work.

I could say so much on this, but it has probably already been said and done at one point. And my thoughts are getting kind of discombobulated. lol

In Christ,
Veronica

Veronica,
You said, "So maybe the question isn't, 'Why is there youth group/ministry?' but rather 'Why ISN'T there ministry to the fathers and families?'

Well said. Let's equip the fathers to be spiritual leaders, as GOD called them to be. That requires time and much exhortation, but it's biblical.

In Christ,
Renoncer

I was talking with a missionary friend this weekend, and he said that when they went into villages in Africa, the women and children were turned easily unto the LORD - but it was only when the men came that there was a great awakening.

"'Why ISN'T there ministry to the fathers and families?'"

Kind of makes me think of the world and how they are so out to reach the "teenagers." Most advertisements, commercials etc is out to reach the teenagers...Another counterfeit from the devil??

" the women and children were turned easily unto the LORD - but it was only when the men came that there was a great awakening."

That was good Heartsong!

Veronica said,

"So maybe the question isn't, 'Why is there youth group/ministry?' but rather 'Why ISN'T there ministry to the fathers and families?'"

Renoncer replied,

"Well said. Let's equip the fathers to be spiritual leaders, as GOD called them to be. That requires time and much exhortation, but it's biblical."

Thanks be to God that He is raising up men and ministries to do those very things mentioned above.

Here's just one of those men and ministries I would highly recommend to you all.

http://www.spiritofelijah.com

The "Equipping Men" 11 DVD series is an excellent resource to,as Renoncer said,"...equip the fathers to be spiritual leaders, as GOD called them to be."

"Why ISN'T there ministry to the fathers and families?"

Thanks be to God that there is! It's just that in these times we must search diligently for such.

In the "About Us" link on the website you'll read these words, "The calling of God in Norm's life has given him a heart for men and their families."

If you're unfamiliar with Norm Wakefield and the ministry God has given him, "Spirit of Elijah Ministries", I'd encourage you to get familiar with him and the resources offered on the website. It's not a large ministry quantitatively speaking,but it's large qualitatively.

Check it out and you decide!

It's encouraging to know that there is a positive move to combat all those negatives!

God be praised!

We have heard Norm Wakefield speak/teach at homeschool conventions - I highly recommend his ministry as well. He really has a heart for training the fathers...

hi, in order to change the fathers you must have the fathers and you must have their attention and time. if you train the young to be good fathers you then will have greater success.jimp look over most churches and you will see how women outnumber men and if you look closly the youth do not always stay young.

Renoncer and mgulder, you make excellant points.
And yes, kids CAN see through dead, empty religion.

QUOTE: ".jimp look over most churches and you will see how women outnumber men."

Amen to that. Sad to say.

I am glad to see that this post is generating a good discussion.

Thanks Savannah for sharing about Elijah Ministries.

I think if we consider the time and effort that should go into training men to be godly leaders, and them in turn leading their families closer to Christ (including daily family devotions), we would realize that there is not much time left for fooling around. Sadly, we have a tendency to waste time on TV, entertainment, sports, foolish talk, and often, doubtful activities.

I was surprised to hear that many people who have gone through genuine Revival mention that the Holy Spirit takes away any interest for such things as sports, drinking, dancing, etc, and instead brings interest to the things of God, such as prayer, worship, Bible reading, and simply God-centered fellowship.

Perhaps as part of building the church and training men to be leaders, we should also deal with the need to change our schedule, removing some of the meaningless things and replacing them with meaningful things (in the light of eternity).

In Christ Jesus,
Renoncer

"I am glad to see that this post is generating a good discussion."

I am as well,Renoncer.

For those interested,an excellent resource on this subject is a book entitled," Family Man, Family Leader".

Here's a description of the book from one website:

The fullest and most complete modern Biblical treatise studying the subject of male headship in the home. Covers male primary responsibility, being king, prophet and priest, loving and honoring your wife, accountability to others and more.

What this country and the church need now are a few good men-husbands and fathers who are willing to love and lead their households with manly resolve and godly vision. We are experiencing a national crisis of manhood. Absent a revival of fatherhood, we can expect to see an ever-increasing rise in the numbers of effeminate boys and masculine women, and the total breakdown of the Christian family. We need family men and family leaders.

Part of one review of the book states:

A good man would not be as “hard to find” if more men followed the advice in this excellent book! It outlines a vision of godly manhood that is not only slipping away from our modern culture, but from our churches as well. Christian homes are suffering from the lack of manly leadership. This book clearly traces the root of the problem to its source, then provides step-by-step solutions from God’s Word. 329 pages,from Vision Forum.

What some others have said about the book:

I find much to like about this book, and very little to dislike – when measured against the benchmark of inerrant Scripture.

Mr lancaster hits the problems on the head. This is a great book. Christ is the head of man, man is the leader of the family under Gods authority. This book was very biblical based, and I found it very useful. Thanks.

This is the best book I've read on what the biblical role of men is in leading their families. It reviews what has happened in recent history that has led to the break down of the family and then turns to the bible to give practical instruction on how men need to get back to their God ordained role as leaders of the family. I have recommended this book to my married and single friends as well. This book gets 5 stars from me.

A must read for every Christian man and woman. Lancaster reiterates basic Biblical truths that have been lost in our modern society. The significance of the Faminly and male leadership is inescapable in God's Word. The insights provided in this book should reshape our thinking to return to what God has commanded, not suggested, for thousands of years. Most of the ills of modern society in Europe and America can be attributed to lack of understanding of these principles. If we had been following them as God has prescribed and commanded, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, etc. would not be issues today. The indifference of the Christian community to family and God's roles for men and women are clearly at the core of what ails society today. Lancaster book and the Family Integrated Church movement are a call back to the Bible and being God's people God's way. I am sending this book to all my sons and brothers with encouragement to hear the voice of the Lord and act in obedience to His call upon their heart to turn their hearts back to the children and do what is commanded of us all. Thank you Philip lancaster for a book that is reforming the way Christians think and act to return them back to THE source of truth God's Holy Word.

The book may be purchased,among other places,at the following link:

http://www.christianfamilylifebooks.com/product/1929241836

“How can it be right to look at the things that are wrong to do? How can those things which defile a man when they go out of his mouth not defile him when going in through his eyes and ears?”

I agree with this. The fathers are the problem, not the youth. However, the youth is a problem in a sense of there should be no youth program at any church. "Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm." - ESV Proverbs 13:20. This, my brothers and sisters is the root of the problem. My wife and I are youth workers in our church, which is ironic really, but if given the choice, we would definitely have the youth with the parents in the sanctuary on wednesday nights.
A lot of parents these days have really dropped the ball biblically on what it means to parent a child, including me. I know I need to pray with my son (13 months old) every night. I know he needs his daily Bible reading. It doesn't matter if he's understanding what I am reading, what he is getting in his head is that this needs to be a daily thing. It's what I need to do before I go to sleep and before I wake up.

To follow up with what Savannah said about book resources, my wife and I really enjoyed Voddie Baucham's "Family Driven Faith". Best resource I know for raising a Biblical family.

One of the most common sins to be commited by mankind is the tendency to try to bend God's Word to suit our own purposes. I believe this sin is sometimes even subconsciously committed, by people who are (or believe themselves to be) earnest believers in Christ. Still, sin is sin, and a person is greatly fooled if they bend God's word to benefit themselves rather than either God or His flock.

This author, Phillip Lancaster, is such a man. In this book, where he tries to raise a dead form of male-rule from the dust, he proves various times to be more in support of man-made power issues than the humility and meekness that's so important for a Christian to have. Rarely have I seen anyone try so hard to use God as a backboard for their own personal gain.

This book began with the typical worn-out patriocentrist arguments: men were meant to rule, this is God's order, feminists are evil, etc. I wasn't particularly surprised or offended until I saw the words "men were made to lead and women to follow". Wow; this author doesn't even bother to hide his low views of womanhood and short-sighted Biblical understanding. Of course, Lancaster tried to cover his butt with the typical "women are equal in spirit" jazz, but it was, as always, painfully see-through and false. I guess I should be used to this by now, but it still offends me to see such inflated pride in a man, especially when he amusingly tries to cloak it with Christianity. I guess he remains in blissful ignorance of the stories of Deborah, Huldah, Phoebe, Chloe, and Esther in the Bible. It turned out, though, that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

Lancaster reveres male authority to an extent that's anything but healthy. Rather than focusing on God's state as all-powerful and utterly Spirit, this book tries to make God out as some masculine force that serves to empower men and male-rule. At one point, it actually says, "Christian man fills the same offices held by Christ, chief of which is that of king".

Even now, I'm still marveling at these words. Men don't even compare to God; that notion would be humorous if it wasn't so blatantly blasphemous. Jesus wasn't A king, He was THE King, the King of all nations, all people, everything that treads the earth and beyond. This is an "office", as this book calls it, that no man will ever come close to filling, nor woman. As God's children, we are called to model His servanthood and His love, NOT His authority! The Bible says to love each other, not to lead or lord each other; how dare this author even imply that men model Christ's role as King! The choice of words was poor anyway, because Kingship was never an "office" for Christ; in case Lancaster forgot, Jesus was never officially King while he was on earth. The reason for this was that His kingship was a Holy state of being, not an earthly office, so human men could not model this position even if they were meant to be the supreme rulers that Lancaster seems to think they are.

If I didn't know better, I would think that Lancaster believed Christ died just to put men on a demi-god pedestal. This book actually says, "Christ restores men to their calling to rule the earth for the glory of God. Christ enables men to be kings".

Another statement that's both unGodly and sexist. Firstly, God stated before creation that man AND woman would rule the earth; nice try at leaving women out of the picture. Secondly, Christ came to humble us and save us, not to make us rulers. When we just begin to comprehend the enormity of His sacrifice, we should fall to our knees overwhelmed by humility, not take this as an opportunity to appoint ourselves as governors. We should also recall that Christ had to die because we failed so miserably at ruling His earth, not because He's eager to make us monarchs. I can't imagine that Lancaster or anyone would think of Christ's pain and take from it a false crown for his own head, rather than a hood of humility.

There were definitely other points of offense; Lancaster calls the father king, prophet, and priest, attempting to make fathers believe that they serve as some sort of intermediary between their families and God. Sorry, wrong again. Women and children are perfectly capable of having their own relationships with God. Plus, while I would like to strain the fact that I DO believe men are called to be spiritual teachers for their children (as are women), wives do not need this treatment; they are capable of Biblical understanding by themselves. Still, even these offensive points paled in comparison to Lancaster's unbelievably blatant attempt to uplift men to unholy pedestals, while apparently using Christ as a springboard. I must seriously question where his heart lies in this matter.

I was originally going to give this book a two star review, because there are some good points of advice, but the depths that this author sinks to in order to uplift male power canceled out any good points. All things considered, I really cannot recommend it at all.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3U059QNDJY3TB/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1929241836&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful

Jenny

For those that are interested:

There are some excellent books on this topic, and here are some I recommend:

"Paul, Women and Wives" by Craig Keener

"What Paul really said about Women" by Pastor John Bristow

"Women in the Maze" by Ruth Tucker

"Liberated by Submission" by Bunny Wilson (examines the concept of submission and how it's a daily part of life rather than a gender requirement) and perhaps especially

Sarah Sumner's brilliant book "Men and Women in the Church" (excellently examines roles in marriage, among other things). Sumner is neither complimentarian nor egalitarian and, having no personal feelings or leanings in this matter, she has deeply explored Biblical history, context, and language. She is utterly calm, rational, and scholarly; her book is a must-read!

Jenny

Jenny,
Please, if you want to discuss feminism or the role of women, there are other threads for that purpose. You may be interested in this one: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35133&forum=34&5

This discussion has been very constructive and God-honoring up to this point, and I don't want the enemy to put a stop to that.

In Christ,
Renoncer

Jenny wrote:

" God stated before creation that man AND woman would rule the earth; nice try at leaving women out of the picture."

Looks to me like you contradicted yourself in one sentence!

Renouncer suggested one not divert this thread into a discussion of women's role in life so I will try hard to refrain from going there. But do wonder about Jenny contradicting herself...

Jenny,

I read this post this morning and it has been on my mind all day. It disturbed me so much. Much as I dislike hijacking this thread, I must beg the original poster's pardon for doing so.

I have never read anything written by Phillip Lancaster, so I googled his name and found his book listed on amazon. I noticed it had 13 reviews, all of whom were positive except for one. I clicked on it and saw your review posted, same as here. Now that I am writing I see you had posted a link to it - which I had not noticed before. As I read your conversation on that "Customer Reviews" I also noticed you have written many reviews dealing with male/female issues. The tone all reflect the one you posted here.

Jenny, as I read your posts on Amazon and here I sense a bitter attitude in you towards males. I find this very grievous. Apparently your experience with them has been bitter in the past, hence your attitude. I suspect you have been either abused by a male relative[s], have had an abortion[s], or been divorced - hence your animosity. Jenny, this disturbs me. There is no other reason for any female to lead a crusade in male bashing unless this has been your experience. I find this very sad - I was raised by a loving dad and have a loving husband - been married for almost 44 years.

May I suggest to you that you go for help. You need it because your eternal destiny hinges upon your resolving this issue. You must remember that unless you learn to forgive those who hurt you God will never forgive you. Now this is a tall order to one who loves to revel in her hurt - one experiences a lot of satisfaction there and to suggest otherwise is to invite anger towards the one suggesting it, so I am risking your anger and I do not mind.

I also suspect you really have no intentions to come on here and discuss issues, etc - all you are interested in is male-bashing wherever you can on the web and you found SI and dropped your poison here. So sad.

Go, get help, I beg you...

ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,
Your last comment to Jenny was very appropriate. Thank you for doing the right thing.

In Christ,
Renoncer

by dvndsn,

"...Voddie Baucham's "Family Driven Faith". Best resource I know for raising a Biblical family."

Voddie Baucham and his ministry is another which christians ought to get acquainted with. He offers some good resources as he addresses the faith and the family in a biblical way.

Another contributing factor to 'why we are losing our children' are the public/state school system.

To be released this month is the excellent documentary called "Indoctrination".

Below is from their website:

Indoctrination: To instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

“IndoctriNation” is a 90-minute documentary film that takes the audience on a panoramic exploration of one of the most important and controversial issues in the history of mankind, the issue of education.

Traveling all over America with his family in a big yellow school bus and conducting a series of candid conversational interviews, Colin Gunn, a Scottish filmmaker, actor, and homeschool father of seven children living in Texas, is on a quest to discover the origins of our modern educational system.

What he discovers is a masterful design that sought to replace God’s recipe for training up the next generation with a humanistic, man-centered program that fragmented the family and undermined the influence of the Church and its Great Commission.

Part documentary, part testimonial -- a confessional and a rebuke, this film is above all a challenge and an encouragement to millions of Christians who need to know what history, experience, and the Scriptures have to say about what is perhaps the pivotal issue of our time: the discipleship and training of the next generation.

Ken Ham also has a book and DVD on this subject called "Already Gone".

May christians get a hold of these inspiring resources,and may God renew His people with a fresh zeal and passion for His Own Glory that our children may also be consumed by that fire of His Holiness.

Bless the LORD.

Can of worms opened, unfortunately. Please remember this is a Christian forum and the outside world sees our interaction with one another. Will they know us by our love or by our heated debates?

*edit added*
I read some of Jenny's post and had a question for her, if she is willing to answer. You said you were offended when Lancaster said Man was made to lead women were made to follow, while I don't outright agree with such a statement is there something wrong with following? By getting angry at such a role seems silly to me, I love following, infact Im called to follow, follow who? Christ Jesus. Why despise following? Please understand me I am not a maleshovanist but this does make me curious.

Men in the home are the head of the household, Ephesians makes it pretty clear, but he is to "rule" like Christ "rule" His church with gentliness, Love, respect, long suffering, and humility. I read the bible and I don't read of a role where men lord over ruthlessly over the women but I do see two distinct roles in the home, where together a household is complete. Balance is key.

Brenda, it seems to me that most feminists are expecting the males to be a knight in shining armour awaiting to rescue them from all ills. Since this is not happening, they get angry. Women have learned that males are human beings with a selfish nature, just like themselves. Now, how on earth are you going to reconcile these two human beings who have vowed their futures to each other? Both selfish, both self centered - "I want" takes first priority - always. This is human nature which the scriptures define as the flesh.

Brenda, I grew up in a nuclear family, married almost 44 years and birthed four males and one female; had one brother, eight uncles, three aunts, 24 male cousins. Among these aunts and uncles there were two divorced and remarried. AND as people wandered away from God the divorced rate spiraled among my cousins of whom there were a total of 46. Do I have rose colored spectacles?

Brenda, no human being will be able to meet the expectations of an idealist, be it male or female. Let me ask you, have you met your husband's expectations in what he wanted to see in a wife? No. And neither did he meet your expectations which gives rise to your anger.

Scripture teaches us the importance of forgiveness. This act is best learned in the family setting in which all are born with the sinful nature in its raw form. How can one live in harmony with this nature at work in its members? Ahhh, this is why forgiveness is an essential ingredient in human relationships. This is where forgiveness is learned so when one grows up he/she will be enabled to exercise this act -dismantling any idealistic image of male/female relationship.

Has my husband always done the right thing? No. Has his wife? No. Have I ever wondered why on earth I married? Yes. Has my husband ever acted selfishly? Yes - he just did yesterday and it annoyed me to no end. BUT I vowed to be faithful until death does us part and with this vow, God is holding me accountable so I choose to forgive, and love him anyways. Oh, yes, I did share my frustration with him about what he did, and he learns and so do I. Whining will get you nowhere, by the way.

Brenda, ever consider this: would you like to be married to someone like yourself? Now be honest! When this thought entered my brain, I was appalled. What does this teach you? If you are honest you will have to admit you also have serious flaws that need remedying.

Brenda, what has been the result of suppressed anger/unforgiveness? How has it benefited society? Obviously, it has not helped you any. Families break up, drug abuse rises, illegitimacy rises, poverty is on the rise. All because females choose to go their own way without male leadership providing for them.

Having said all this I am well aware of lack of godly male leadership in society. It is because of this that there males who are encouraging others to take the leadership role to provide for their wives and children. A male thinks differently then a female - God made it this way. Many times these methods of thinking conflict with each other, especially when either one is infected with a selfish mentality. And males do not have the corner on this, females have plenty.

You complained about misogynism being alive a well in the church. So, you find males that you dislike? Sure, I do, too. But Scripture teaches us that wives are to submit to their own husbands - it does not say to every other male around you. You are to focus your submission on your own husband and leave the others be. You have no obligation to them apart from polite courtesy. Still, there are times when one must submit to authority in society, church in order to have an orderly society. If everyone is self-serving nothing will work.

AND this is why we all need the LORD in order to live harmoniously in our family, in our church in or community.

My spectacles are, by the way, not rose colored but bifocal!

Genesis 3:16 (NLT)

Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.[a]”

Found this interesting in light of the discussion.

For those who are able and who may be interested there's a conference addressing "Gospel Centered Marriages" in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of Asley,N.C. October 27-29.

Designed to bring parents and their marriage age children together to consider the biblical doctrine of marriage with the aim of God-centered marriages, this conference will seek to reset our thoughts about marriage and prepare the rising generation for marriages that glorify God.

Some of the speakers will be Paul Washer,Doug Phillips,Kevin Swanson and Scott Brown(co-producer of the Divided Documentary and author of A Weed in the Church).

A help to prepare your children for marriage.

You may click on the link below for more info:

http://www.ncfic.org/gcm-about