16,000 attend the grand opening of Joel Olsteen's new Lakewood Church, including Texas Gov. Rick Per

What struck me about this story was the involvement of Rick Perry. I've been very wary of him. He doesn't sit well with me. Look for his presidential bid to come into play, despite his so-called "hesitance." He will be a front-runner.

It really hurts to see us so quick to point fingers at everyone trying to find out whos the bad guy, in a community of grace we sure do point fingers a lot. I'm not saying everyone is a good guy but that none of us deserve our Lord Jesus and to pick out who He doesn't except is wrong.

Lovefirst wrote:
It really hurts to see us so quick to point fingers at everyone trying to find out whos the bad guy, in a community of grace we sure do point fingers a lot.

God bless,
Lisa

PS: It wouldn't hurt me a bit if Greg decided to close all the discussion threads.

by martyr on 2011/8/3 20:51:09

"I am not sure if closing down the discussion threads is a good idea. They do serve a purpose to inform of what is going on in the wider community. I have posted on the persecuted church to raise awareness of it. The key is looking at the admonitions to pray before we post. Something I don't always do. Something I will do. If we did that, pray before we post, the quality of threads will be better."

Indeed, I would dare say that posting negatively about another christian, saint?, that maybe wrong in some way is a dangerous thing. Should you want to be measured by that same measuring stick? I don't want to be for sure. Cater Colin did a sermon on "angry watchmen" speaking about beating up the bride of Christ. I know that there are wolfs out there, however Jesus did send His disciples out amoungst them. He didn't however tell His disciples to attack them...

Please, I'm not meaning to come across as hurtful or angry, I'm hurting inside to see His body so against one another, so ready to point the finger with accusations, so paranoid. We can have the right theology and still be nasty people. We can have tons of works but they are still filthy rages. We are to be known by how we love.

"PS: It wouldn't hurt me a bit if Greg decided to close all the discussion threads."

Welll, I sure would miss it and I'll bet Lisa would too as much as she posts! :-) And if you don't like it, you do not have to read them - it is only an option, free choice, free will....:-)

Have a good day, y'all!

I believe that there is a place for exposing wolves, false teachers and prophets within the Church. The problem is that on this forum that there are many Christian leaders and ministers that are being wrongfully labled as being false because of guilt by association or because the accuser doesn't see eye to eye with them doctrinally. As long as the devil can keep us divided in our little groups, arguing over who is right, then he has successfully neutralized the army of God. Our prayer should be that we would all come into the unity of the faith, speaking the truth in love.

Mike

ginnyrose wrote:
Welll, I sure would miss it and I'll bet Lisa would too as much as she posts! :-)

Well really this is a good thing, it just shows us that God's word is true, and the things he said would happen are happening, so I look at this is just a sign of the end times, nothing more. God told us this would happen, so we should look at this as to increase our faith in his word. I could care less what these agenda's of the folks are, that's is not going to be my personal focus, I will be rejoicing over the fact that these things are happening, and God's word is still right on.

It is a theory that Mr. Osteen may have received too much of the hell fire and damnation preaching in his younger days and chooses to present another side of the loving God. Regardless, he feels in his own eyes that is is right to preach what he is preaching. I have a family member who listens to him and his name was brought up in a conversation. I would feel uncomfortable commenting on him or his teachings having not listened to him. I had heard others speak of him but I never watched him and I never followed any posts on SI concerning him. I wrote him off, categorizing him as yet another WOF teacher.

So I committed myself to listening to a few of his sermons for the sake of my relative. I heard a very pleasant message with several jokes and anecdotes. He is somewhat charismatic and reminds me of a young jovial boy who is always smiling. This is what people see and hear. It is pleasant and uplifting but is it gospel and does it have within it the true joy of being a child of God?

it appeals to the one who would benefit from listening to it. So how would I judge it according to scripture which would be the test for any truth. I would liken it to watching an enjoyable movie in a comfortable theater. However, in the lobby there is a raging fire. It has enveloped most of the building and there is but one exit that is temporarily free of the flame. No one in the theater is yelling fire. There is no smell of smoke so there is no concern or alarm and so all sit there content unaware of the eminent danger. It is a one sided gospel that speaks well of man and when man is elevated he is in grave danger. Men should rise up to who they are in Christ and that is a position of blessing beyond description, but to hear a gospel that does not humble men before the Almighty is robbery in the greatest sense. In our humility He is glorified. Do not even the Angels in His presence cover their eyes. How dare anyone treat the Holy God in such cavalier fashion as to have no fear of looking into the Ark. The message I heard, being tailor made to men, catered to the desire to better their condition in this world but It was delinquent of unselfish love, trembling, and reverence that one should desire toward the God who is everything to them.

Having felt that I had given a good listen to Mr. Osteen I felt I could then see what was recorded by others that would never be posted by his ministry. I saw a recording of a man who stood on a parkway corner as the thousands of people leaving this mega church were being ushered out and to their respective parking facilities. The man on the corner was yelling," repent". All of the people leaving the church ignored the man. Not one in this clip addressed the man or did anything but ignore him. What would I do if I were leaving a gathering of the saints and a lone man stood on the corner for the purpose of telling me to repent? This picture has not left my mind for a month now. Although this man may be a crazy, and I don't know anything about him (the man on the corner that is), what a picture of the churches scattered across this land it could represent. Families are leaving facilities, where supposed saints have gathered, and as they leave a lone man stands on the corner yelling repent and no one listens. Not to pagans, and those in obvious rebellion against God, but the very churches across the land. It is a frightening picture I fear that is not just fitting for Joel's church but for a great majority as well.

I have seen where Joel refused to speak out that Jesus Christ was the only way. My question is this, do we condemn every person that darkens the doorway of his building? The subject reads about Joels new building/meeting place, and then mentions Rick Perry. Should we attack both men? Is Rick Perry and Joel Osteen condemned to hell already? Has judgement day passed? Should we harp on others wrongs and blast it out in the forums? Maybe Joel or Rick haven't yet heard all that we accuse them of? Maybe we are their last hope? I say these last few lines foolishly of course. But I pray that if I stray in someway that you would all pray for me and seek the Lord on my behalf.

Here is what I am thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong. If we know the truth and hold tight to it in our own life then what do we have to fear? If we see our neighbors or family involved in something that isn't leading them closer to our Lord Jesus then we should speak to them in love and concern. If someone at work is involved in questionable things and they are Christian then shouldn't we, in love, approach them after much prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit?

I just don't understand the constant pointing of fingers. Questionable acusations towards the body. Are we so pure of heart that we can see all tares and all wheat? If we are in Christ Jesus and He is in us don't we feel more a need to help, pray, and work to pull the body together rather then split it more. Don't you notice how we hurt one another by condemning others?

"Do we condemn every person that darkens the doorway"?

I would remind you that this is a large church with a few doorways. This gospel which is no gospel at all is being imported all over the doorways of the world. Countless millions will spend eternity in torment because of its attraction to their flesh. If the body of Christ is birthed in this gospel then God owes man an apology.

Did anyone say that evangelism should not come forth out of love? While it cannot be said that there might not be a few belonging to the bride amongst the great throngs of those clamoring for what is being falsely taught, we should question whether this is about disturbing the wolf in the pen while we triage the sheep or whether we signal the warning to lost men that are enemies of Christ?

by lylewise on 2011/8/4 15:08:22

"Do we condemn every person that darkens the doorway"?

"I would remind you that this is a large church with a few doorways. This gospel which is no gospel at all is being imported all over the doorways of the world. Countless millions will spend eternity in torment because of its attraction to their flesh. If the body of Christ is birthed in this gospel then God owes man an apology.

Did anyone say that evangelism should not come forth out of love? While it cannot be said that there might not be a few belonging to the bride amongst the great throngs of those clamoring for what is being falsely taught, we should question whether this is about disturbing the wolf in the pen while we triage the sheep or whether we signal the warning to lost men that are enemies of Christ?"

Indeed, you are correct. However, what good are we doing? Who that knows Christ hasn't recognized this? Is what we are doing producing any good fruit? Would it be the same as going to this church, after praying and fasting, and standing outside preaching the Gospel to members with passion and dedication? Or are we stroking our own egos and gossiping, slandering, and such with our statements?

Lovefirst,

With all due respect, I think you're putting words in other people's mouths. I know you did with mine. Look back at the posts. I said that I was wary of Gov. Perry and that he doesn't sit well with me. That's it. Then you said...

It really hurts to see us so quick to point fingers at everyone trying to find out whos the bad guy, in a community of grace we sure do point fingers a lot. I'm not saying everyone is a good guy but that none of us deserve our Lord Jesus and to pick out who He doesn't except is wrong.

Nobody else had said anything about anyone else at that time so I can only believe you were speaking about my post. Later on you said that Gov. Perry was being attacked. But you added a lot of your own words to what I said. Where did I say Jesus doesn't accept Him? Where did I say he was a bad guy? I said I was wary of him. How is that an attack?

war·y   [wair-ee]
adjective
feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems.

Where in the Bible is it wrong to be wary of anyone? Matthew 10:16 says, in Jesus' own words, "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Gov. Perry gives me a check in my spirit. I'm wary of him. It would be unwise for me, through experience, not to pay attention to that check.

To be honest, I have two problems with your comment.

1) When you put words like that, and infer meanings that aren't there, in other people's mouths, it's the same as gossip and slander. It's exaggerating. One of the problems with discussion forums, including this one, is that many people have a high tendency to read things into posts that aren't really there and then comment on them in a manner that isn't true.

2) The way that you're using the "community of grace" phrase and wording the rest of your post, you're making it sound like Christians should never speak up unless it's all nice and positive. Is that how you think Jesus was?

I believe in tempering our words with grace. But I also believe in being honest and not putting on a false sense of humility. (I'm not accusing anyone of that, I'm saying that I don't believe putting on a false sense of humility.)

Many people have the idea that presenting Christ means being quiet, "humble," never raising our voices or saying anything that isn't nice. As if we have to justify everything we say with, "I don't deserve Him myself." We don't, but people often say that with a false sense of humility. In Him we are justified, made right in the eyes of a perfect judge. There's no room for false modesty in that.

The Christ we present is not a namby-pamby Jesus. The effeminate "gentle Jesus meek and mild" who walked around with his hands folded, strolling, head down. He's the Christ of the gospels who walked down dusty roads bronzed, strong and fearless. He was a carpenter who loved all kinds of people, laughed with them, celebrated with them but also spoke out against them when it was necessary. If He were in America today He'd be called "red blooded" because He was the type to call a spade a spade and let the chips fall where they may. He wasn't the Jesus of pious sentiment. He became violent, even making a whip, when He upset the money lenders and the marketplace in the temple.

What I'm trying to paint here is that sometimes I think people speak about Jesus in a way that portrays Him as the tender, fragile, effeminate Jesus that many, like the Catholics, have portrayed Him to be. But He was a rugged Man of honesty, who enjoyed laughing, having a good time and wasn't afraid to call a spade a spade. He got angry. He got violent. And, while that's not a license for Christians to act that way, it's NOT wrong to say when people concern us.

Simpleliving,

Are you saying that because of my statements that I'm slandering and gossiping? I would hope not. I know who and how Jesus is from what I have read about Him in the bible and how He deals with me, and desire everyday to know Him more. The title of this thread mentions Gov Perry, you brought him up, Krispy also made a mention. If this would be the only thread I saw such things then of course I would not be so inclined to say something. However, I see finger pointing at almost every single thread. I see knowledge puff up and tear down others. Very little building up, so much so that I can't see the love of the body of Christ.

In your post to me you explain a lot, with knowledge, of how you might view my character. Also, how my view of Jesus maybe incorrect. You took a shot at Catholics and you follow up with how Jesus is and what isn't wrong. I wish I didn't see it this way but I too call a spade a spade.

Yes it upsets me to see this type of tearing down of the body of Christ. Why is it easier to be so critical of one another instead of building each other up??? Either by words, deeds, or in prayer? Why are we so uptight and uneasy, always accusing and suspesious?

Please let me know when Osteen talks about the holiness and justice of God, the blood of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, sin or the need to repent of our sin.

While this thread seems to be unraveling, might we take note that it was posted by a moderator. A watchman on the wall for the community at large on SI. Not all are apprised of the false teaching coming out from various false teachers as more time is given to the study of truth vs. the lie. It does reveal the clearer picture that has been spoken of by various teachers on SI as well as what is experienced outside of the forum. Most people are dead! We cannot rest that one calls himself by denomination or doctrinal camp. The majority are suspect. This is the evangelism of our day in the United States.
Lovefirst, I agree with you fully in regard to the necessity of action over words, given that action of course is bathed in prayer and of the Spirit who guides us in all Godly wisdom and gives us the very words to speak. I know that is what you were referencing. This is obviously the evangelism we must recognize for if we are truly of Christ we must recognize that the many who cross our paths are lost. The teachers we listen to on SI were about this concern and desired greatly that the lie be exposed even amongst their own congregations so that they should be brought to Christ by regeneration. Should we see it any different? I would not assume anything today given how the lie has been perpetuated and in so many forms. We cannot buy into the call for toleration that is the trumpet call of the day, we must be about the discernment that we are given. if we speak of false teachers we should rather talk of the subtle errors that become the foundation for the greater heresies and more importantly the truths of scripture that stand in opposition to such lies.

As for Rick Perry or any other in the political realm? I do wonder what the participation of the first church would have been in the world of politics had there been such a vote in that day. Which Caesar might they have cast their vote for. Or would they?

Yes and there were also a few of those apostle guys, but just as the prophets before them, they were not very much loved by the world either. I have no utopian fantasies about the first church. I cannot imagine the depravity of the culture given what is recorded for us in God's word. We think it difficult today. No I think history has spoken well to what lies in men's hearts. I am curious however as to how much thought would have been given to politics had they been given the freedom of participation? For some reason I think it would have been the last thing on their agenda.

That was a great post lylewise about the early church and politics.

The early church stayed out of politics. The did not seek to change men's hearts through the arm of the flesh.

They honored and respected all men and their speech was seasoned with grace.

There were some influential men in the early church, but they would rather labor in the gospel, following in Jesus' footsteps rather than labor in the flesh.

If any generation had motivation to get involved in politics it would have been the early church. They were a nation that was occupied by a foreign army.

What would Believers in America do today if they were occupied by a foreign army? Or not even that. Say Obama becomes like Chavez of Venezuela, what would Believers do?

In Christ,
Sarah

Hi Martyr,

I chose Chavez because of the how he was very subtle at first and then once he had complete power his true colors came out. However, it is true that Castro when fighting during the revolution, convinced everyone that he was a freedom fighter and fighting for their interests when in reality he was fighting for his own interests. And of course we see the fruit of Castro's reign.

Yeah, they are basically both Marxist, Socialists.

I can say that Obama is too. It is not a criticism of him at all. More a fact of reality based on what he says in his books and his actions. It will become more and more evident to people that he is as time goes on.

Just remember, that the Church under Marxist, Socialist rule always experiences purification and holiness.

In Christ,
Sarah