Not sure if any of you know but many people including my friends & family are going to the Jesus Culture Awakening Conference currently happening in Chicago (8/3rd-5th/2011). People from all around the world are viewing this (in attendance/internet stream). I know most are going primarily for the music. I am concerned for those coming to this event primarily for the music (Hillsong United & Jesus Culture)yet gets influenced by the speakers (Bill Johnson of Bethel Church, Reinhard Bonnke, Cindy Jacobs, Banning Liebscher of Bethel Church, Lou Engle, Sean Smith). I've told my family & friends to practice Biblical discernment. I know there is no perfect ministry,church, or good person yet I don't think we ought to ignore the leaven that will eventually leaven the rest. I don't believe in church bashing but the darkness needs to be exposed of its false teachings. Google 'Jesus Culture Awakening' and look into it yourself but practice biblical discernment. I just watched it and heard only a push for a generation of leaders to heal (signs and wonders). I didn't hear a coming to repentance & forgiveness and the grace we receive from the LORD and growing in the LORD. Maybe I'm missing something. What are your thoughts? Here is an example of the nonsense they will here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhG1x4fOtBw&NR=1 and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWeUNoR30_0
Jesus Culture Awakening 2011 ***Concerned
WOW! I live here and hadn't heard anything about it. I will have to do some research on this - it is not knowledge that is talked about in my conservative circle...Sorry I can't help you....thank you for making us aware though...
check out the update of my post for more info. Latter part was edited.
I have never heard of this man....the first clip of God in charge vs. control is subtle - you have to listen carefully - I can see how many can be deceived, especially young people or people new in the faith....I am glad to be made aware of this. I'm sorry you have family attending...
I am not familiar with the event you speak of. I know some concerns have been raised with some of the speakers you mentioned. As these are the end times and deception abounds it is right to ask where is Jesus Christ in the midst of these events. Indeed we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God.
I started a thread some time ago questioning the Rick Perry event in Houston. The way some people in this forum howled you would have thought I touched the annointed. I voluntarily shut the thread down. I share this to let you know that some folks may get upset with you. But continue to be wise and discerning. For the record I still have concerns about that event in Houston.
Posted by Blaine Scogin
let the witchhunt begin...believing rumors, seeing youtubevideos, and then judging and critisizing...the "Accuser of the brethren" likes this behaviour.
By the way, I am not a fan of the JesusCulture Movement and the Speakers and I don't listen to them. But this behaviour on the board is so typical, you can see this in almost every corner on the discussion board.
Why is it that those who always say, "Be careful brothers, Jesus said in the end there would be false prophets and false miracles"never have any miracles of their own to contrast it with. Well of course Jesus said there would be false miracles... there always has been!. You will also find in Hebrews and Exodus that Jannes and Jambres performed many of the same miracles that were performed by God through Moses hand.The difference is that Moses snake ate theirs ... and several of Moses miracles could not be repeated by the magicians.. although many could.
So.... before a person opens their mouth and criticizes the supernatural coming from another person let them show where there power is. Paul did this in Acts with Elymas and struck him blind. There is never any proof of anything unscriptural by the folks attacked on these threads this way .... just normally a set of "beliefs" by the person. Sometimes some scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic ... but are posted as a "proof .
text" for someones opinion and accusation.
Paul stated part of the true Apostolic marks in 2 Cor. It states,
"I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles".2 Cor 2:12 NIV
THAT is the rub. The ones who go on these Christ dishonoring witch hunts never have any real fruit themselves. They preach fear to people ... but never display any power in demonstration in their own lives or ministries that would show they are on target.
I agree with the fact that all messages must be sifted through the grid of scripture to "eat the fish and leave the bones" if you will. However, I have seen virtually NONE of that. It is accusation founded on nothing more than Pharisaical religiosity or personal opinion. It happens again and again.
The cessationists on here believe it must be the devil's work when the supernatural happens. They believe God isn't into that anymore. What an impotent excuse for faith! A God who does not prove himself in the affairs of this world! That certainly is not scriptural!
As my old grand pappy used to say, "The proof of the puddings in the eating boy". I think that was what Elijah said at Carmel...that was what Moses said at Pharaohs palace....what Jesus said to the devil, sin , sickness, and disease... what Peter said to Annanias..... what Paul said to Elymas ....and ultimately what Jesus said to death, hell, and the grave.
If God is so behind you and your message then show up in the power of the Holy Spirit and reveal that ... show up and confront in the power of the Spirit.. not just "a protester" that spouts off at the mouth... but show up in true Biblical power... or otherwise sit down and mind your own business... I believe you, and we all, have enough to take care of in our own lives without knit picking someone who is actively engaged in serving God. It's easy to sit and criticize someone else who is actually doing something. However, I would rather get out of the boat with Peter and perhaps fail in my attempts to walk on water than to stay in the boat with the rest of the cowards afraid to try anything for God and yet critical of those who did try.
I am sorry if this comes across as a bit "riled up". I do not mean to. However, I do feel that it is important that the senseless witch hunts that go on stop. I would be surprised if ANYONE has ever been "warned" of anything on these threads. It is rarely, if ever, anything more than a character assassination by multiple posts of opinion.
I write this post in love... but compelled to also be honest in what I see.
Blessings,
Solomon101
your deliverance is no proof at all. In every church are people, who are under false spirits. but if you somehow got a false spirit, it is very easy (and very proud) to put the blame on your church, because unless you open the door for that false spirit, he couldnt come into you.
I am delivered of many spirits, I had several major deliverances and the holy spirit showed me that I can never put the blame to anyone else, because I opened the door to the false spirits.
I like to say with MILTON GREEN, that behind every bush are not only one demon, but many... so believe me, you can find people under the influence of false spirits in every church.
to the pure, ALL THINGS are pure.
I attended this conference with my wife and 2 oldest daughters 15 and 17. We were so impacted by the messages and "off the charts" praising and worshiping the Lord, not to mention the rich fellowship of other disciples we had never met before.
Lou Engle spoke with great authority on "Seperated to the Sermon" A powerful message challenging us to live by the words of Jesus.
Reinhard Bonke ministered with mighty power on the baptism in the Holy Spirit and in another message feeding the 5,000.
Bill Johnson spoke on humility, honor and purity. My oldest daughter said this was the " deepest " message of the conference.
Strongholds of the enemy were broken over my family during these meetings. Just being in the awesome Presence of God brought such freedom to love and honor.
There was a 20 to 30 minute spontaneous ROAR of praise that came from the crowd with no worship leaders involved. The crowd was moved by the Holy Spirit to praise Jesus with a "voice of triumph". It was truly awesome.
Much more could be added but just a note to honor the Lord.
If there was a "different Jesus" there, he didn't stay long because Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God was there to meet with the Church.!
Russell
We see deception on a grand scale in these days and I believe the majority of evangelical Christendom at least in the West has given way to false teaching, false conversions, false signs, false whatsoever in one form or another. There will be only a remnant left and this remnant will be thoroughly tested and refined in the furnace of affliction. Do not be ignorant, what happened to the Jews will happen to the Christians in like manner.
The apostasy of the last day is foretold in many places in the bible. It will look compelling, attractive, and genuine on the surface. It will become mainstream.
2. Tim 4:3 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Thessalonians 2
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
All of those who do not love the truth will be ultimately caught up by the counterfeit. The counterfeit works so to say as God's garbage truck. Jesus said:
Luke 17
37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
These eagles (or vultures in other transslations) are evil spirits that feed on rotten flesh. They feel on carnally minded Christians.
The counterfeit gains control when people do not rightly discern between Spirit and soul. Because they do not hold the whole truth in high regard but make allowances for their sins they mix up soul and Spirit and the result will be an increasingly distorted and disfigured Christ. At last the antichrist will be revealed and will be worshipped instead of Christ.
Do not marvel when many here on SI are of different opinions on these topics. Do not get into arguments but rather pray. Even the correct arguments will make them more furious. People need to have a revelation by the Spirit of God. Years ago I would have bashed those discerning voices as religious bigots. God dealt with me thoroughly in a time of affliction and after my repentance gave me revelation of what is going on all around Christendom.
I personally have left not a few meetings in anguish where the counterfeit was presented. They all thought that the Holy Spirit was present in the meeting.
2 Timothy 3:12-14
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Good old T.Austin Sparks talked about that in 1969, see
A Final Shaking
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=31
From A.W. Tozer - In Pursuit Of God - The Life of A.W. Tozer
A major concern of Tozer's was the lack of spirituality among professing Christians of his day. He zeroed in on its primary cause. "I am convinced," he wrote, "that the death of great saints in this day....is due at least in
part to our unwillingness to give sufficient time to the cultivation of the knowledge of God." Speaking about the frenzied pace set by religious leaders leaving no room for unhurried reflection and meditation, he cautioned, "Our
religious activities should be ordered in such a way as to leave plenty of time for the cultivation of the fruits of solitude and silence."
It is time, O God, for Thee to work, for the enemy has entered into Thy pastures and the sheep are torn and scattered. And false shepherds abound who deny the danger and laugh at the perils that surround Thy flock. The sheep are deceived by these hirelings and follow them with touching loyalty while the wolf closes in to kill and destroy. I beseech Thee, give me sharp eyes to detect the presence of the enemy; give me understanding to see and
courage to report what I see faithfully. Make my voice to like Thine own that even the sick sheep will recognize it and follow Thee.
A.W. Tozer April 1897 - May 1963
Perhaps people should look at some of the reviews of people like Bill Johnson's books. Here is a link to a review from Pastor Bob Dewaay of Johnson's book, "When Heaven Invades Earth": http://apprising.org/2011/07/05/an-invasion-of-error-a-review-of-bill-johnson%E2%80%94when-heaven-invades-earth/
These people are dangerous, deceptive, and manipulative. They teach things that sound "christian" and yet the fruit is not.
Having people on this board doubt someone's deliverance etc is silly. They say, don't look at the youtibe videos etc. We listen to his sermons, and his books and the error is seen within by those with discerning eyes. The videos and quotes are merely the icing on the cake.
I was not completementary about Bill Johnson on my blog recently and I got comments telling me to not touch God's annointed (how can he be if he teaches things in opposition to the Word). I even had some comments which were so bad, I could not approve them (just this afternoon, one comment contained vulgar language directed at myself!!). That fruit is evidence of the desperation of these people to hold onto the fallacy of many of the teachings of Bethel and associates.
Avoid Bill Johnsons etc and do yourself a blessed favour!
Bless you all...
i spend more time reading then posting on this site
you know brethern one thing i have noticed ,,
is some people are doing exactly what they are saying there brothers are doing
we have some people critasising the one they call the critic
basicly calling them witch hunters
do you realy think that this behavor ,is an better ,then others pointing out who they belive false teachers
i can only see a great contradiction in that behavour
i see not justafictaion in that what so ever
there opinion is we must watch out for certain named false teacher
and others have a,voiced opinion that these shoud shut there mouths and that being there opinion
thats all brethern ,,may god bless us with desernment
gazzer
by their fruit you will know them...
I f we apply this scripture, then it gets real clear. What is the fruit of all this critizing in the name of "discernment"?
the fruit is FEAR.
If you look around on this board, you'll see it: People are full of fear:
- Am I allowed to go to this event?
- Is it OK to read this author?
- Can something happen to me, if I listen to xy?
- may I get some demons, when I listen to xy?
- May I get unclean, if I go to that church?
- one brother is constantly warning others, they can get a demon, if they go to jesusculture, etc...
(but Jesus walked around many demon-possessed people and they couldnt do anything to him...)
This is all FEAR in religious disguise.
Here are people, that are so full of fear. In fact they are all believing more in what the devil could do than in Gods protection.
In the love of God there is no fear. So when we are full of fear, then we are not walking in the love of God. If we are not walking in the love of God it is very easy to critisize.
The bible says, that fear is a spirit that is not from god. so this is a very evil fruit that comes out of this. By their fruits YOU WILL KNOW THEM. There's nothing more to say about this. Either you obey the Word of God or you don't. The Word of God makes it clear, that this is NOT A GOOD FRUIT. So will you continue to do this? Then you willingly participate in sin, even if you give it a "godly name" liek "discernment". If the fruit is fear, it is not "discernment" or "apologia", it is sin.
Hi Sherid,
Did you receive my PM to you?
Shalom,
browny
i hope idont sound to fearfull , because that is not the case ,,,,,
but brother aussiedler , your accusing others now as well with that post ,, now your saying there are false brethern in this fourm ,,,,you are doing exacly what you imply others are doing to this ministry , can you see that
that is called hipocracy brother
i just felt i would point that out, to one of my fellow country men
hey bro are you from queensland , or new south wales
Just A Thought!
There are 4 THREADS, this one and three other identical ones, started with the EXACT SAME cut/past beginning post.
EVERY time it is the cut/paste of the same "only concerned" type criticism.
Interestingly the originator of ALL 4 threads..poster "face_down".. only has 4 total posts on SI... that's right...all 4 identical cut/paste posts to open up criticism. All started within the last few days. Perhaps someone should judge that fruit!
At this point someone of a slightly suspicious nature might be catching a clue that this is a troll! A troll that is looking to engender strife and criticism of ministries that other posters, who were actually there, said bore wonderful fruit in their lives and the lives of their children.
nope, I am not doing the same. I am just speaking the truth in love and truth hurts sometimes. I was not critizing, but I applied the scripture to this topic and it is convicting to see how many questions in the board are motivated by fear. That is the truth, everyone can see that for himself.
and believe it or not, I probably like you anyway and no, I don't think I am better than you or others and I know that I myself struggle with fear. So I am definitely not more spiritual than any other here. If you don't believe me, I can start posting some of my failures to convince you :-)
by the way, has anyone here read "In 80 Years around the world" by Arthur Burt?
maby they did it out of love as well and sincerity
can you post the words that prove they were not doing it in love ,,,it verry hard to do that when its done with a keyboard ,,
whos arthur burt ,,was he a missionary
are you from australia bro
i thought your name hinted that you were
gazzer
No, I am from Germany.
Hi Sherid,
Somehow I cannot reach you.
Also not succeeding to get into your husband's Blog.
Sorry for that.
You are a dear and beloved sister,
And AMEN to your words!
Praying shalom over you.
browny
Hi Sherrid,
I noticed in your message that you referred to your "story" of deliverance from Bethel/Jesus Culture. Have you posted that here, or on a blog, or elsewhere?
I would be interested in corresponding with you about it, and posting it, as well as sharing it with others. I work with some brothers in the US and S.Africa to warn younger brethren -that's who Bethel is being targeting--about Jesus Culture events
You can write me through my blog:
http://jesuscultureawakening.blogspot.com
God bless you!
carters wrote:
Emphasis on freedom/grace apart from 'We Cry Out' (song) never heard them speak of repentence or sin...
"NEVER heard them speak of repentance or sin??" I'm not trying to be difficult here, I don't know about the rest of your stuff because this caught my eye and I looked up the lyrics. Kim Walker sings with Jesus Culture and here are the lyrics to "We Cry Out." Maybe you could point out where this song is unBiblical...
Kim Walker
We Cry Out
1 Verse
Oh lord, We cry out we've been lost
We need your mercies, oh god
We REPENT for our ways
And we turn to you again.
Oh lord, we cry out we've been lost
We need your mercies, oh god
Change our hearts to yours
We repent for our sins
And we turn to you again
And we turn to you
Chorus
Oh god, we cry out
For your mercy
Oh god, We cry out for your grace
Oh god we cry out, set us free
Oh god we cry out, once again
Once again
We are a chosen generation
God bless,
Lisa
Carters I completely agree with your estimation of things as outlined in your post. For many believers, praise God, there is little real experience of the demonic realm. Sadly there is little understanding either. When I first read into the NAR teachings I was genuinely shocked. Though I say this plainly I do so because I have personally experienced wickedness in the form of wilful and deliberate intercourse with demonic spirits. Few believers have done this knowing precisely what they are doing. It is of course wickedness and so when I had the power to resist their efforts I was able to repent. Yet at that time they did not come after me, I went after them. Much of what is taught and believed by some of the men and women you have mentioned or else who are involved in the NAR is so visibly demonic that it is almost impossible to believe that these men and women are believers. Yet I personally do not for all their activities reject their faith in Christ. It is essential that we understand that the moment we replace scripture with prophecy and prophetic (men and women) we are at once in the realm of the flesh. Not only our own inclinations to self delusion but we are also at the mercy of the delusion of those very men and women as well. In this they are themselves behaving demonically and are in danger of becoming demonic even as the spirits which fell with Satan are demonic in there ambitions and desires. Any attempt to directly control the elements or other men and women is demonic if it is pressed with words of prophecy and doctrines to control others. Whether a few songs are off the mark or whether they are full of truth is nothing. Their activities are wicked and they will pay for them in the day of the Lord. The best thing you could do for these men and women is to ask the Lord to judge them in their own bodies so that they would not be condemned along with the world.
This material you have posted from Bethel is not precisely the same as the NAR in its ambition, it is more akin to a gaggle of witches in a coven by which means they feel no shame fellowshipping with the dead. It needs to be remembered that it is death which is the realm of wickedness and sin. Moreover though it seems unlikely once you actually give yourself over to the realm of death all of its fruits are as sweet nectar to the flesh so that all manner of filthiness and corruption is possible with no conscience whatsoever. May the Lord have mercy.
I feel sure this will be largely misunderstood but I post it anyway.
carters wrote:
3) Why did you post the song, with the name of the Lord in small/lower case letters?
Where in the Word of God does it command or even imply that the Lord’s name cannot be in small/lower case letters?
What do you mean that on the one hand, you do not doubt their faith in Christ...and then believe that they are behaving demonically and are in danger of becoming demonic? I ask because the lay person, from the outset would look at argue that their faith in Christ is pure but then how do we comprehend the demonic behaviours, when Light can have nothing to do with darkness? The leaders at Bethel are aware of the arguments people have against them. So are they acting against their own consciences now & willingly leading people astray? Sherid
What I mean is that it is possible for believers to behave both demonically and eventually to become demonic themselves. There is a great deal of naivety amongst western believers in this regard. We have a somewhat slanted understanding of the demonic predicted on a satanic model of understanding where Satan is presented as a horned and gruesome character whose malevolence is always both visible and consistently unpleasant. Whilst it is true that in the Light of Christ these spirits are discerned and are always unclean, this uncleanliness has to do with the fact that they are actually dead. That is to say the demons are disposed of their bodies having been judged through death, which is the removal of the body. Satan on the other hand is yet in his body and cannot be discerned in that way.
Those who practise necromancy are well aware of the smell of death. They cannot escape its meaning and so they are without excuse. When believers are deceived through doctrinal heresy they are not likely to even know what they are doing, otherwise they would also be without excuse. In these circumstances it is necessary to have a gift of the discerning of spirits in order to even comprehend their participation in giving vitality to the heresy or the atmosphere. Even wicked men do not necessarily understand that the spirits which they agree with knowingly are in fact in death. Most believe that these spirits are alive. In short it is wrongly believed that demons are simply fallen angels who go about in their angelic bodies but invisibly. This is a great deception because whilst there are such angels, Satan being the chief of them, they are yet in heavenly places and are not earth bound, natural or demonic. In the end these angels will be cast down and then this earth will become an exceptionally wicked place beyond anything our natural minds are able to comprehend. Then they will behave demonically in every sense of the word. Yet in heaven at this hour they do not appear of else seem demonic. They are yet in appearance as the sons of God.
Clearly in heaven they cannot go about causing chaos and destruction.
As far as believers behaving demonically, it is necessary to understand that a man or woman can behave demonically without any participation directly from a demonic spirit. Men and women have the same demonic inclinations that evil spirits have if they walk in the same death which they walk in. Now we have passed out of death into life in Christ. Yet this does not mean that in our flesh we cannot behave demonically, be influenced demonically or else in the end become demonic ourselves. It must be the rarest of things to happen, but it does happen and sometimes it is right before our eyes. We do not discern it because it is a man and not an unclean spirit. When it is both an unclean man and a shipwrecked ministry pressing on in a demonic mind, it is visible and shocking. In the end of this age which time we are in, it will become increasingly true. This is not simply about apostasy, it is about the fullness of rebellion of angels as well as the lawlessness of men.
I don’t want to go into the details because I don’t think that it is edifying. I can say that I have fellowshipped with demonic spirits when I was serving Satan. They have minds and they have a history of their own. They are always manifestly in death and they always harm others who they fellowship with. In the end in the occult world of sorcery (which is where I was positioned) these same spirits can be controlled by men and women who themselves understand that they have given their own eternal souls over to serving their own purposes and are prepared to do that which is just as wicked and more so, than the demons which they are controlling. In all of this Satan is an amused observer. He will of course have his say in it all in so much as he is always informed through a confederacy of intelligent spirits what individual men and women are about. The Father Himself requires it of Satan to go about upon the earth and he does. In heaven he thereby accuses the brethren before God. It is written “And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10). After this casting down of Satan and his angels there is 42 months left of this age. It will be a time of wickedness and madness beyond anything hither too seen or comprehended. It is also the beginning of the kingdom and the power of God come into the air. Then it will be possible to say with certainty that the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
To that end of days Satan may well have a specific purpose or ambition in using an individual. In the case of disobedient and fleshy believers walking in wilful sin, it is their power he wants to use. So he comes as an angel of light. Heresy is subtle and ministry is geared to what can be rationalised, dependant on mysticism and gnostic aesthetics, is evident is sophos (wisdom), both of God and men, corrupted to a wicked end, and outworked in boastings as of the sons of God both in heaven and on the earth.
The way in which believers can be drawn into this dreadful cycle is through a willingness to lord it over the flocks of God and Christ which amounts to abuse. Abusing itself, rests squarely on one thing. Self interest, at the expense of others. We should be more willing to hurt ourselves than hurt others. Which point to made yourself.
So in conclusion what ought one to either do or think about those who take the name of Christ yet who for reasons of selfish interest and personal gain (egotistic or material) clearly harm others? The answer is to hand them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that their spirits may be saved in the day of the Lord. Yet this handing over is an apostolic authority given by Christ, it cannot be purchased as Simon the magician sought to purchase it from Peter. The only thing left until this calling is restored to the body is to bring these men and women before the Lord yourself in prayer and name them before the Father in heaven. What we cannot do is behave demonically ourselves and set about to harm them directly. In fact it ought to be clear if you listen to these men and women, they are in fact boasting ahead of time and have taken apostolic authority, as they see it, and are commanding the very elements including mens bodies. They lay out lines of agreement in the visibility of the heavens and thereby do they behave like sorcerers, believing that they have been given apostolic and prophetic authority.
Understanding that harming them would be to control them by fear or else oppress them by unrighteous authority, their remains a fearful reality. Those who do press onto these things, such as some of the men and women spoken about in the NAR confederacy, will themselves lay hold of their own rights which are founded on the commandments of God to love and not to hate. In this they are either free to destroy and lay waste or they will be brought in ahead of time, in the removal of their bodies that they might sleep, according to what the Father permits or else denies. Sadly in many cases it is harm which is permitted because the church itself cannot exceed the bounds of its own day. In the west at least the church is almost fully apostate.
Given that there are some who are not believers at all, yet have found an entrance into the flocks of God, then these are more difficult to deal with because they cannot be handed over to Satan, as this would result in their eternal destruction. This is of course completely contrary to the Love of the Father and would amount to a denial of Christ Himself and His sacrifice for sin. Such as these will press on until the end if they continue to deny Christ and do not repent of their sins. These are the tares and their inclusion in the dominion of the kingdom of God makes certain their ability to influence foolish and apostate believers. Their end is destruction and the second death. The one thing which eludes the understanding in all of this is the extent to which the apostolic ministry will become evident once again in the end of this age when these things will have become visible and therefore easily seen. One thing is not difficult to understand. It is all in the hands of the Father and He has appointed all things in Christ Himself. Our part is simply a matter of His calling and our willingness to obey Him.
It is for these reasons that I am not willing to condemn anyone outright and say of them that they are not His without a clear and proper conviction and leading of the Holy Spirit. As for protecting the babes, well let the righteous anger of the Father illuminate your understanding and the love of the Father restrain your anger. I hope this does not prove too much of a reply.