I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

Great post tuc.
Theology is perfect and Biblical.
The illustrations too are very accurate and clear.
I take that you do not sin any more.

"Children, Obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and Thou mayest live long on the earth."

Ephesians 6:1-3.

A good post tuc, it helps much to hear what you believe, for there are so many voices try to take it away from you. Again, thanks I needed that.

Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Praise God I am no longer under the warden and his guards. I have been set free. I have the Spirit of Christ in me now and it is by His work in me that makes me pleasing to our Father.

Not only am I our of prison, but I am dead to sin and resurrected to new life. Even if I fall into the old man mold and sin, it no longer has a hold over me, for we have the Advocate with the Father that set us free in the first place. Grace, Free at last.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Justified by the Faith of Christ, set free to live the life of Christ that is in me.

This wonderful mystery revealed to His saints now.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

By His working, every man perfect as we are in Christ not my own perfection but His, presenting me to the Father, "Perfect": Phillip

I think it is important for us to understand the distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law in the OT. If we do not make that distinction we can fall into a form of "semi-antinomianism" as Christians.

The Bible is crystal clear that as Christians we have absolutely no relation to the civil and ceremonial aspects of the OT Law. But the moral Law still applies for us to keep in mind and abide by through the Spirit's power. Areadymind pointed out a good example of this principle from Eph 6(Other examples are in Rom.13:8-10 and James 2:11-12)).

So we see throughout the New Testament epistles that the moral Law still applies to us. The NT writers warn us over and over regarding the practice of "law-breaking". Romans 8:7-8 tells us, "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

One main difference for us as Christians is that we have a clearer understanding of the spiritual nature of the moral Law than what was written in the OT. In the sermon on the mount Christ clearly explained the spiritual nature of the moral Law so that we would not walk in darkness regarding it. We have a higher standard to abide by than what was commonly "understood" prior to Christ.

Another main difference is that we now have the Spirit's power abiding in us that enables us to keep it
(Rom.8:1-11).

And now we can call it "The Law of Christ"(1Cor.9:21). That law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not "lawless" if we are true Christians.

But as to not having any relation to the wrath and condemnation which the Law brings, I completely agree with the OP.

Oracio: You called attention to a difference in moral law and ceremonial or civil law and stated, if I understand you correctly, that we are no longer bound in any way, shape, or form to the civil or ceremonial portion of the law but still live under the moral law. One statement that you made is that "the law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not 'lawless' if we are true Christians." I would ask us to consider a couple of items that I think pertain to this discussion.

First the Bible does not make any distinction between nor does it call out any distinction between "moral" and "civil" law. I believe this distinction is a construct of man applied to the Bible. I do understand that teachers have used Biblical evidence to try to weed out what is moral and what is civil or ceremonial, but I do not see the distinction as a Biblical one but rather as a human one.

That being said, look at Matthew chapter 5 where Jesus discusses what we might call the "moral" law.

Mat 5:17-48 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (24) Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. (25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (33) Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (35) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. (36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. (37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. (41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. (42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice that Jesus came not to destroy the law but rather to fulfill and that until the end not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of the law is fulfilled. A couple of things that I notice. First Jesus makes no distinction between the moral or civil law. He simply refers to the law and says that not one little part will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. But we know that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Remember that He was witnessed by the law and the prophets. What many call the ceremonial law presents a beautiful picture of Christ that we see totally fulfilled in His person and in what He has done.

Now Jesus goes on to quote some portions of the law and present the fact that the letter of the law is not God's holy standard but only in imperfect picture of God's standard. For example murder vs hatred and adultery vs lust.

So we see that even what many call the "moral" part of the law is still only a very imperfect picture at best of standard of holiness that God is and requires of all who enter His kingdom.

So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide. As a spirit born again I will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit where moral life is concerned. I don't refrain from murder because murder is wrong is God's eyes. I don't refrain from adultery because adultery is wrong in God's eyes. I don't refrain from pornography because it is wrong in God's eyes. I refrain from doing these things because it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. If I find myself missing the mark in some area my spirit grieves within me and I know that I have not lived from the Spirit but rather from my flesh and I quickly repent. (As I did a few moments ago when I found myself grumbling to myself about something my wife did. She was not present but I immediately knew my grumbling was not in keeping with Christ in me through the Holy Spirit's conviction and I repented before God.) You see to live in Christ or better put to have Him live through us will be to have Him be through us the fulfillment of the whole law, spirit and letter.

I also think it detrimental to the body to see the NT as simply a superior form of the OT law that we are still under bondage to keep. If I am keeping the law then I am doing it out of my own effort and it will produce the same death in me. But if I allow the literal fulfillment of the law to live out life through me through the person of the Holy Spirit then I am no longer doing ANYTHING of myself and I will through this death to self find life in Him.

Twayne wrote,
"So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide."

No disagreement there. I did not write that we can or should keep the moral law to attain a righteousness before God and earn a place in heaven through our lawkeeping. Christ fulfilled the perfect requirement of that law on our behalf. But that does not mean we can now be lawless. That's what the NT makes very clear.

Although we are set free from the legal punishment of the law which is hell, we are still commanded to obey the law through the Spirit's enabling. Jesus said, if you love Me keep my commandments. What are His commandments. We see clearly in the NT that His commandments are "you shall not commit adultery/or lust, murder/or hate, have unforgiveness, use profane speech, get drunk, etc.etc.

If we have a problem with and/or despise those commandments we have a problem with God's Word and God's mind and holiness. For the child of God those commandments are something he delights in, like Paul speaks of in Romans 7 and David speaks of in Psalm 1. Those commandments are part of the nature and character of God, which our new man loves and desires to be like above all else.

This may break some bubbles but in the NT epistles we DO have a set of RULES we are commanded to abide by. Over and over we are exhorted and commanded as Christians to abstain from all form of wickedness or ungodliness and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. Not my word but God's.

ginnyrose wrote,
"What's important to say regarding this topic is that MANY say they are not under the law who live wicked lives in sin. Such are indeed under the law until they repent and follow Christ as a true disciple led by the Spirit. If we don't proclaim and demonstrate the effect of the grace of God as true righteousness by the life of Christ and power not to fulfill the lust of the flesh by grace, then many will end up twofold the children of hell thinking that they are safe and under grace in their sin. All those who are lawless and disobedient need to hear the condemnation of their lives and the claim of God's rightful authority over us by the law so they will be persuaded to repent and flee to Christ for true grace."

Amen dear sister, couldn't have put it better. Your whole post was refreshing.

I think growing one got it right.

The argument Paul uses in Rom 7 is so clear. We are not under the law in its condemning effects if the flesh is dead. Dead flesh does not sin. That means that when we sin, we are under condemnation until we repent.

Another thought came to mind. Those who are apart from Christ are also under the dominion of sin and have no power to keep God's law. They are under the authority and control of sin, which is transgression of the law(1John 3:4). But in Christ we are set free from the dominion of sin and are given the Spirit to be able to fulfill the moral law in our walk. We will not fullfill it perfectly in this life but to a certain measure we can fulfill it by His grace. That's what Romans 6 and 8 points out. What the law could not do because of our weakness, Christ has accomplished through His life, death, and resurrection; and by His Spirit indwelling us. His resurrected life is now made ours by faith. Through that resurrected life we can have victory of the dominion of sin which is lawlessness.

Also Twayneb is right. When Paul speaks of the law he speaks of the whole law ceremanial and moral. We see that in 1 Tim 1: 9,10 as Growingone mentioned. Paul here speaks of the moral law. but again the only qualification to escape the condemnation the law brings is to be in Christ, led by the Spirit. since we can not serve two masters, we can not be in Christ and in the flesh at the same time, for one will by nature oppose the other.

There is no distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law, Law is Law, If I break any of the Law, it is sin.

God does not sit and judge, Oh, they don't keep the fourth commandment, I will apply that to the ceremonial Law, it does not carry a greater penalty than 1 or 2. Any breaking of any law is a choice on the law breaker, no matter what we deem it, civil, ceremonial, or moral. If it is one of the 10 commandments, it is sin. If it is adultry, is it moral or one of the ceremonial laws that say to kill the adulterer.

We are not under any Law, only ONE applies to the Born again Christian. LOVE.

Ok, which Law did I break, it does not matter it is all Law.
One Jot or tittle is in all the Law. I don't want to break any Law because I love Jesus Christ. That is where my soul mind wants to be, With the Mind I serve the Law of God In my heart, with the flesh, well you make the Judgement.

In Christ who fulfilled the whole Law by whom I now am as He is, which establishes the fulfilled Law in us.

Phillip

I think Oracio here is when people will disagree on this thread. When you said we do not fulfill the law perfectly in this life.The question arise, what do we do when we fail to fufill the law perfectly? do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation? Those who say we are no longer under the law will find no necessity to repent, but if you notice the argument the Apostle is using is " We are no longer under the law because the flesh is dead" Since dead flesh does not sin, then there is no need for the law. But if we sin, that proves that the flesh is not dead, and therefore we are still under the law. For the law is made to restrain sinners 1 Tim: 1: 9,10

You are right Christinyou,
Paul says we are not under any law, but you seem to forget the ground upon which he builds his argument. He says we are not under the law because the flesh is dead. Dead flesh does not sin.

tuc,
Do you then believe in "Sinless perfection"?

Christinyou,
In your first post I followed your thought until you said this: "Even if I fall into the old man mold and sin, it no longer has a hold over me"

I just want to direct your attention to the argument Paul puts forth in Rom 7 in the OP.

He says: the old nature and sin no longer has hold over me because it is dead.

But you said: " If I fall into the mold of the old man and sin, it no longer has a hold over me."

Your statement cantains a contraditon, if it has no hold over you, you can not fall into its mold.
But if you fall into its mold, then it has a hold over you. It is the one or the other. It can not be both.

Christinyou wrote,
"There is no distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law, Law is Law, If I break any of the Law, it is sin."

Not so. What I and others are saying is that when we do not obey the civil and ceremonial OT law, we do not sin in disregarding it. However, we cannot disregard, "You shall not commit murder/or hate, You shall not commit adultery/or lust," etc. We are still bound to obey that aspect of God's law. This is throughout the NT, too many passages from it, some of which have been clearly pointed out in this thread.

You bring out a good point about the 4th commandment. That is the only one we are not commanded to obey in the same way that Israel was commanded. In the NT we learn that Christ has fulfilled the Sabbath and is our Sabbath rest therefore we are not required to set aside a certain day to obstain from any work. But all the other 9 are still binding on us to obey by the Spirit's power as we yield to Him.

Untobabes wrote, "I think Oracio here is when people will disagree on this thread. When you said we do not fulfill the law perfectly in this life.The question arise, what do we do when we fail to fufill the law perfectly? do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation? Those who say we are no longer under the law will find no necessity to repent, but if you notice the argument the Apostle is using is " We are no longer under the law because the flesh is dead" Since dead flesh does not sin, then there is no need for the law. But if we sin, that proves that the flesh is not dead, and therefore we are still under the law. For the law is made to restrain sinners 1 Tim: 1: 9,10"

Good points. You asked, "what do we do when we fail..do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation?"

The true Christian will be convicted and repent when convicted. This is a lifelong process of sanctification. Our Lord taught us how to pray and included confessing our sins to God. We will all still stumble in many ways as James 3 points out. But not in the same way as the unsaved. They deliberately sin without regard to God's law. We will still sin, and we will not lose our salvation everytime we sin, otherwise no one would be saved or be able to have any assurance of salvation.

Even though I am in Christ, I am sensitive to the fact that I sometimes need to confess sins to God and repent and get back up and go on. We live a life of repentance, but it is totally different from the life of the unsaved. It's been said that the true Christian stumbles falls into sin, while the unsaved or false converts run and dive into it.

Martyr,

We are saved by the righteousness of Christ dwelling in us. What does it then mean that the righteousness of Christ endwells someone.
It means that as Christ loved unto death and laid His life, so also those who live in Christ will do the same through Him. Even as Christ never had a thought of adultery or envy, so also those who are in Christ. and even as Christ lived His whole life in perfect submission to God the Father, so also those who are in Christ.

Being in Christ is perfection lived in actual and practical way.

Oracio,
The original post of this thread was trying to establish from Rom 7 :1-6 that we are no longer under the law. The point the Apostle is making( believe it or not) is sinless perfection. He says: we are no longer under the law because the law came to restrain the flesh. For example: the flesh wants to lust, but the law says there are consequences to lust, but the law could not restrain the flesh by any other means but only fear. However, the flesh can not be restrained because the flesh is corrupt from head to toe. but Christ now came and put the flesh to death. Now the law has no effect to condemn because there are no violations of the law. The law condemns violations, that is what the law does best. the only way to stop the law from condemning is to kill the thing that causes the violations namely the flesh. That is what Christ does when he abides in the believer by the Spirit.
To say then that we are in Christ and yet the flesh shows manifestations of life is a contradiction.
That is the argument that Paul puts forth.

Edit-
In ther words: Paul is saying we are no longer under condemnation not because the law is being lifted or taken away, but rather because it is no longer violated. Because the flesh that caused the violations is now dead.
Now to say that we are not under no condemnation of the law yet continue to violate it is a contradiction.

Untobabes wrote,
"To say then that we are in Christ and yet the flesh shows manifestations of life is a contradiction."

Indeed that is where we will have to disagree Untobabes. Sinless perfection is not taught in the Bible. It will deceive you into thinking you do not sin when you in fact do still sin and need to confess it and repent continuously in this life. Those who believe in sinless perfection have a very low view of the standard of God's law. I remember a Christian who was caught up in that doctrine. I knew that he still sinned everyday in some areas, like laziness at work. But he was oblivious to his sins and thought he was being perfect. He did not own his sin to be sin. That is what that doctrine will cause you to do. You will justify your sins and be blinded into thinking you are perfect when you are not. It will cause you to be legalistic and pharisaical and look down on others with self-righteousness. Just a friendly exhortation:)

Oracio, would you please not worry about what I believe.
We want to discuss what Paul is saying in Rom 7: 1-6.
What is the reason he gives for not being under the law?
Please read the Edit part of my post and tell me if you agree or not.

Are we no longer condemned because the law was taken away or because the violator of the law ( namely the flesh ) is now dead? What does the Scripture say? Read Rom 7:1-6 again.

Oracio: You wrote that in the NT epistles we DO have a set of RULES we are commanded to abide by.

I pray we are not talking around an issue and really saying the same thing. Yes we are commanded to live lives of Godliness and to abstain from all forms of wickedness in the NT. I guess my point is that these "rules" are not an extension of the OT law. They are not the "moral" portion of the law. The OT law served the purpose of convincing us all under sin and bringing to bear the full weight of wrath and death that trying to live lives pleasing to God in our own ability produces. The OT law could never bring right standing or righteousness agreed. But the OT law was also never the standard that we were to live up to. If living up to a standard were the goal then we are still hopeless for God's standard of holiness is even above the commands to holiness in the NT. Praise God for His grace.

But Paul spoke of a place in which we are dead to ourselves and dead to sin (Rom 6) and caps it off with the analogy of being dead to one spouse and married to another (Rom 7). I agree with you totally that we are commanded to abstain from all form of wickedness and ungodliness and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. But this is done as walking dead men who can do absolutely nothing in their own power. The death and rebirth so transforms and regenerates us that we live lives of holiness as we walk with God in the Spirit.

I guess the danger is that we might somehow simply exchange one set of laws (OT)for what we perceive to be another superior set of laws (NT) and just continue to try to serve God out of the oldness of letter and not out of the newness of Spirit. I tell you brother that this is a terrible bondage.

UntoBabes: You wrote that the question arises what do we do when we fail to fulfill the law perfectly.

I would say that includes about all of us. Even the Pharisees did not fulfill the law perfectly but put great pride in the fact that they thought they did. When we violate the law of the Spirit, when we transgress, we will know it and the Holy Spirit will prick our hearts and call us to repent (stop doing that thing) and run to God accepting and realizing the forgiveness that has already been provided. The Holy Spirit will lead us into righteousness and holiness.

I agree totally that dead flesh does not sin. But we all battle the flesh don't we? I know I do. But just because I battle the flesh does not mean I am brought back under law. We are under the new covenant, a covenant that is better than the old. Hebrews is pretty clear here. Oh the wonders of the grace of God. That I can be regenerated through the atoning death of a savior. That I can be counted as righteous in Him. That His grace, His empowerment, teaches me not to sin (Titus 3) and that He has poured out His Holy Spirit to abide in me and to empower me to by the martyr that lays his life down and rather lives totally empowered by the Spirit of God.

What does Grace do.

It not only takes the Law out of our lives but if gives us something we never had. It justifies us before God, it gives us a new life in Christ, It keeps us in the clutches of the living God, which is a fearful thing if we don't have Christ birthed in us. The greatest thing it does for us is shed abroad love in our hearts, now we can have a love affair with God and His Son and rejoice in the Holy Spirits teaching of this wonderful Grace. Is it Grace alone? I certainly hope so, for if it depends on anything I do I am lost. So now I labor by His working in me, this is my new life in Christ, it is His working in me that makes me perfect. Praise God for His Grace which is Christ Himself in me the Hope of Glory.

Romans 5:1-5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this ((((Grace)))) wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

How great is this Grace? It abounds much more that the Law and sin.

Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I myself choose to live in this Grace that the work of Jesus Christ in me might present me perfect to the Father, this being where the Holy Spirit does His work, in my soul and mind bringing me into conformity to life of Jesus Christ that I now live and is in me. Praise God, Jesus has made my spirit no longer of my old father the devil, but I am now of Our Father who has birthed this Son in me, that I might have life unto righteousness and to God our Father.

What life are we now living? Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

WE are free from the Law, I won't return to the Law which makes me a sinner and Christ the minister of sin. He destroyed sin in me by the Grace, Christ in me and the Love of the Father, which is my only goal, to return that love and be obedient even to death by the Christ that is now my life and the power of the Holy Spirit who has sealed me into God.

In Christs righteousness: Phillip

"I was once in jail for a crime that I had committed. The Warden was extremely strict and harsh."

In this analogy, I have a couple of questions. We know what the crime was-law breaking. Who is the Warden? The devil? God? The law? If it is the devil, why would he be the warden over the breakers of God's law? If it is God, why is he so harsh? What we do know, is GUILT. When a person sins, they suffer the consequences of sin. Period.

In Romans 7, Paul is building the argument that no person can ever be justified by the works of the law. The law justifies no one, because no one can make themselves good enough to be justified. That's why we have Christ. He justifies, regenerates, and adoptes us. He sets free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
What is "fruit unto God"? Holiness of heart and life.
Rom 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Hey, this thread has a good Spirit so far.
Thank you JB, twayneb, Oracio, Christinyou, and all of you.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

"The Warden was extremely strict and harsh. The prison had many rules and regulations to be kept. There was severe punishment even for a small or slight infraction of the rules. The warden and the guards were on a constant watch looking for any opportunity to catch someone breaking the rules. They were very anxious and always ready to pounce on anyone that even looked suspicious."

This is not the God of Israel

Hebrews1:3 He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [a]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

4[Taking a place and rank by which] He Himself became as much superior to angels as the glorious Name (title) which He has inherited is different from and more excellent than theirs.

Please note, if our purpose is to Glorify God, then our sole purpose is to be transformed and conformed into the Image of Christ. The Law is a darkly lit expression of God while Christ is the EXACT imprint of God. Look at His Life, He lived a selfless life devoted to the Father and to His Love for Mankind. Wouldn't it make sense that this is what we should strive for? And if I Love the Lord with all my heart will I take His name in vain and dishonor His name? And if I love my neighbor will I steal from him or murder him? No Love is our motivation. That was the intentions of Christ to no longer be motivated by the Laws sting death but the forgiveness and Love of a Saviour and Lord, Christ Jesus.

I agree, but Christ is the Law. You can't seperate the two actually. We have the Mosaic law which is like Version 1.0 and then we have Christ as the Law upgraded Version 2.0. I prefer Version 2.0 because in it is Grace and Mercy and all Fear is cast out in Christ. :)

The Law is our school master of sin, it tells us what Coveting your neighbor is so we wouldn't be ignorant to Sin. Christ showed us even more how ignorant we were by schooling the Pharisees on the thing they were suppose to be experts on, ie the Law.

Again , thank you so much growingone for your posts.

Tuc, you said Christ made you dead to the law. So, let me ask you this: Did you sin today?
If your answer is yes, according to the Bible ((you are NOT dead)).

Again I would like to remind us of the ground upon which the Apostle is building his argument that we are no longer under the law.

It is not that the law is taken away, but the violator of the law ( the flesh )is put to death.

So, if you woke up this morning with a thought of lust. That proves the flesh or ((You)) are not dead.
Consequently, you are under the law and its penalty until you confess to God and repent.
Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit can not sin in thought, word, or deed without the Spirit's convection.

But if we are sinning without feeling conviction, it is not because we are right with God but because we do not have the Holy Spirit.

Many people, because of faulty teaching, think they have the Holy Spirit but they do not.

Those who are not led by the Spirit of God are none of His.
Rest assured, if you have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you, you will not be able to sin without feeling awful.

Growingone wrote: [The law can never save, but it must be regarded. We need to know what we need to be saved from. Example: You are on the internet and a pop-up comes up trying to get you to visit an evil website. You are severely tempted at this moment. You have three choices: 1) Disregard the law and go to the website anyway and sin. 2) Try to fulfill the law in your own strength. You'll either go to the website or at least sin in the mind because God requires we love him with our hearts and minds; and your restraint was merely external. 3) Go to Jesus in this time of need (Hebrews 4:14-16) so that he'll save you by his grace/power so that you will refrain from going to the website because he has truly renewed your heart/mind and you truly hate lust and covetousness by his grace and the knowledge of him. ]

Good example. I would say that the first two choices are all law based or if you will legalism. It is an attempt to please God or to be right in His eyes by keeping rules by our own effort. Or it is even attempting to do the right thing by our own power rather than reckoning ourselves dead and relying on God's power through us. The third option has nothing at all to do with law but is simply Christ living through us, the new covenant reality of rebirth and walking in the Spirit.

Potiphar was a "pop-up" and Joseph ran away to God.

He did not reason with his mind or fight her beauty and alluring ways with his fleshly strength. It knew it was of no use. He FLED!

We are told to "Flee youthful lusts...", not try to fight them or live side by side with them.

In Christ,
Sarah

Don't forget, the OT law was given by God. The Ten commandments are the perfect law of God, or He wouldn't have given them. To say it doesn't apply to your life is dangerous ground. All throughout the OT it says, "Thus saith the LORD." However, the law does not save. Only Christ does. It does say in Ezek. and Hebrews that He will write His law upon our hearts so that we can please Him. He gives enabling grace. As a child of God, I want to please my Father. This is by faith. There is a "want to" to obey Him.

Hello Martyr.
You do not need to be bright to understand spiritual things, but you do need to be willing. He that cares to do the will of God will understand the doctrine.

You must ask what did "The body of Christ" do. The body of Christ destroyed the body of sin, the old man, the flesh that we had.

If the flesh is dead, the law in no longer needed. The law can not save because it can not change the nature of man, it can only restrain his outward behavior. But Christ did something different, He restored God's image to man again. Now we do not need the law to restrain us because now we ourselves desire to do the will of God.

That does not mean that the law of God is abolished.
It only means that man is not at enmity with it any more.

When we read the writings of Paul we have to understand the points he is addressing.

There was a very critical issue when the Getiles were grafted in the faith. This issue was raised by Jewish believers that Gentiles must go through a time of outward ritual sanctification before they are allowed to be grafted in the faith which is Jewish in origin since the Messiah is Jewish and the Father is the God of Israel.

Paul's opposition to the law or the outward ritual sanctification or purification is that Christ had cleansed the heart of the Gentiles by faith and abolished the wall of separation between the Jew and Gentile.

To illustrate Pauls point. Lets say you have a dirty cup on the inside and out.
The Jewish view was to wipe the cup on the outside first,( outward purification), then stick it in the dishwasher ( complete cleansing in Christ by faith).
Paul saw the silliness of such practice. If you are going to stick it in the dish washer, why do you need to wipe the outside, he argued.

However, that does not mean the cup is exempt from sanitation rules ( the law ), in order to be fit for use.If the cup is found to be spotted, it can not be used.
the question is : Who does the sanitizing.

I hope I didn't further confuse you.

Isn't the flesh dead, only as we reckon it dead through faith?

It is very much alive, yet through faith we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. And we must walk in this reckoning each day.

In Christ,
Sarah

Hello Sarah,
There is an initial blow the flesh receives at the point of regeneration, and through faith it need to remain nailed to the cross of Jesus as we carry our cross daily.

When the Bible says "dead" it deos not mean dead not to ever rise again. Otherwise, there would be no test to pass or choices to make. We must choose Christ and His life in us that alone is able to keep the flesh dead.That is a choice we make moment by moment but by the grace of God it can be done.

Excellant post, Tuc.

Yes, that is how I understand it Untobabes.

When we died in Christ, our Body did not die. It was the same body the very next day. But the Bible talks about our flesh which is not the same as our physical body, but our urges and desires. Lusts of the boy, lusts of the flesh, pride of life. Yes, we need to reckon that dead and keep it nailed to the cross.

In Christ,
Sarah

by Oracio on 2011/8/4 11:10:56

"I think it is important for us to understand the distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law in the OT. If we do not make that distinction we can fall into a form of "semi-antinomianism" as Christians.

The Bible is crystal clear that as Christians we have absolutely no relation to the civil and ceremonial aspects of the OT Law. But the moral Law still applies for us to keep in mind and abide by through the Spirit's power. Areadymind pointed out a good example of this principle from Eph 6(Other examples are in Rom.13:8-10 and James 2:11-12))."

Is this so Oracio?

Here are a few moral Laws of the Mosaic Covenant that you feel obligated under the New Covenant to enforce!

Dt 22:20-24

20 "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, [when married] 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

22 " If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel."

[The punishment is again for them to be stoned to death. and then hung on a Tree for all to see.]

23 " If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. NASU

So the good Christian you are, Oracio, you have the stones ready when the time comes to fulfill these commandments of the Mosaic Covenant.

What did you think? That all there was to the moral laws of the Mosaic Covenant is for you to nod your head agreeing that these deeds are wrong. There is a duty you have to ascribe to the punishments of Mosaic Laws, and to carry them out and be actively in support of these judgments, even if it involves your own daughter or son.

I do not know many Christians who are as committed to these moral laws of the Mosaic Covenant as you claim to be.

I'm not like you. I believe in the NT Law of Liberty that states: Mercy triumphs over judgement, and by what measure you measure, so shall it be measured to you.

I also believe in the Royal Law of Love: to love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and my neighbor as myself. And Jesus explained who a neighbor really is, and I want to be that neighbor.

The third Law of the NT involves the fact that I am a spirit and through Jesus I also have indwelling Holy Spirit:

Ro 8:1-8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NASU

And I am according to the Holy Spirit that dwells in me whom transform my very nature that I may eventually naturally do the things that please God. For God has begun a good work in me and He will see it through to completion, just as Paul explained it to the Philippians:

"Php 1:6-7
He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. NASU

Thus I did not earn my salvation, it is truly a love gift from God to me, and I am confident that He will transform my nature that I may do the good that God created us to do.

Oracio, my brother in Christ, what God is doing in me is being done for all Christians. I just can not picture you throwing stones at violators of the moral laws, stoning which itself is required by the moral laws.

Perhaps you may reconsider your position. Keeping the Moral Laws of the Mosaic Covenant includes carrying out the prescribed punishments noted above.

We know from Hebrews that where there is a change of Priesthood there is a change of Laws: (from Levi [Mosaic Laws] to Jesus everlasting priesthood of Melchizedek [The Laws of Jesus Christ]).

by tuc on 2011/8/5 6:30:25

"It is just a matter of words.

You are right - a mirror can not make anyone clean.

My original statement still stands.

I do not have a relationship with the law at all because Christ made me dead to the law."

And I agree with you fully, Tuc. Jesus was not an example for us on how to keep the Mosaic Laws. He kept them on our behalf, then He shed His blood on the cross which atones for all sins of those who accept Jesus blood as a permanent covering of all our sins, received the Holy Spirit through whom God works His good will in us, that we may do the good He created us to do. It is His work in us that transforms us, a gift from God to us that we may have eternal life and eternal fellowship with God and each other.

The only reason why we are SAVED is not because of any works or good deeds we do, we are saved solely by accepting the blood covering of Jesus Christ on the cross, the perfect Lamb of God who takes away our sins. This is our faith in God, that we believe Him.

by UntoBabes on 2011/8/4 13:35:07

"tuc,
Do you then believe in "Sinless perfection"?"

What is "Sinless Perfection"?

A stone, a shovel, a lake, these never sin. Have they reached sinless perfection.

The Apostle John made it clear that we humans who live on this planet Earth will sin throughout our life, even if we are true Christians.

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

Look carefully at verse 8, John states we will sin throughout our life. I know that I do. I wish I did not, but I know I do, and so does everyone else who knows me. I simply am imperfect.

8. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.

Note that He is writing to Christians.

We are not saved because we became sinless, we are saved because we accepted the shed blood that sinless Jesus, our paschal Lamb, shed His blood as full atonement of all our sins, past, present, and future.

We need to stop thinking about becoming sinless, and rather, we need to actuate the changes God is making in us day by day through the working of the Holy Spirit in us. We have fellowship with God, bring God into everything we do.

Holiness is not the absence of sin in our life, Holiness is the presence of God in our life.

Or would you rather be a rock?

In rereading a few of the posts I think I have to come down on the side of tuc on this one. I don't think it is Law 1.0 replaced by the superior Law 2.0 which includes the grace empowerment package. It is not a new version of the law in Christ, it is a new Covenant entirely.

I noticed that the end of 2 Cor. 3 was mentioned in a later post in relation to the upgrade issue.

2Co 3:6-18 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: (8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. (12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: (13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. (15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. (16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (18) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Notice that the law, and specifically the ten commandment portion, is called a ministration of death. It was glorious in the respect that it was God's law. What proceeds from God that is not glorious right? However Paul says something here that is similar to what he said in Rom. 7. The glorious thing that could only minister condemnation had no glory at all when compared to the ministration of righteousness. The new covenant so outshines the old that the old appears to have no glory at all. But the jews who still follow the law are blinded to the covenant that excels in glory. They are still looking at the old covenant as if it were the way. It is a blindness that is only removed when one of them turns his heart to the Lord and accepts salvation through Christ.

I don't think I would call Christ the law. He is the one in whom the whole law and the prophets found fulfillment. The law condemned us, Christ set us free from condemnation. He is the fulfillment of the law. Prophets foretold of a day when God would write His law on our hearts. Christ opened the way for regeneration of spirit in which we commune one on one with God and God can indeed write His laws on our heart. Not to mention the specific event prophecies. Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets.

If Christ is born again in us, He cannot sin, that is the only sinless perfection we have. How are we presented perfect to God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", Col 1:27-28. The Holy Spirit is also perfect and as we walk in Him in our soul and mind we are perfect also and still our minds are being renewed to the perfect Mind of Christ.
Perfect in Spirit, which is Christ, perfect in soul when walking in the Spirit, will be perfect in the flesh in the resurrection. Still capable of sinning in the flesh, with the Advocate whom we must run to in confessing.

In Christ: Phillip

I think you have not gone far enough with the analogy. I would call it transitioning to an entirely new operating system :-)

One thing I am totally sure of and that I think everyone on this thread can agree completely is that I am so thankful that Christ has opened up the way to right relationship to the Father through His sacrifice and that the righteousness that was impossible to attain prior to Christ's sacrifice is now mine through Him. One cannot just sit and meditate on the truth of God's grace for very long without wellsprings of thanksgiving bubbling up in his heart and praise to God pouring forth from his mouth. I am a friend of God. Isn't that amazing. Praise God!!

by martyr on 2011/8/5 20:10:17

"Brother do I detect a little saurcasm in your response to Oracio? Your profile indicates you are one of the older members of this forum. I would think you would be an example of a gracious response of someone you took issue with.

Blaine"

No sarcasm was intended. I merely wished to stress the full extent of what keeping even the Moral Laws of The Mosaic Covenant entails. Where does the NT 'Mercy Triumphs over Judgement, by what measure you measure to others so shall it be measured unto you.' when you are compelled by the Mosaic Law to carry out a severe punishment for violating a moral law.

Remember how Jesus responded when some Jews brought to Jesus an adulteress.

Jn 8:2-11
Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"

6 "They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." NASU

I'm sure Jesus knew she committed adultery. However, the Mosaic Law required two witnesses to convict her of adultery. They who brought her to Jesus knew she committed adultery and they were prepared to be witnesses to this fact.

What changed their mind? I believe what changed their mind was what Jesus wrote in the dirt. Without outright accusing them to their face of their violations of the Mosaic Law, Jesus most likely wrote hints that each accuser recognized as a serious violation of the Mosaic Law with a significant punishment under the Mosaic Law. Thus each man who were going to be witness that this Woman did commit adultery, but Jesus knew about their own sins, and they, seeing Jesus knew their sins, in fear of being punished by the Mosaic Law themselves, they trickled away as each began to see their sin in the dirt.

Yes, I'm speculating, but it is a very reasonable speculation. For Jesus was not sent by the Father to condemn people, but to save them by taking away all their sins through His Blood shed on the cross. Jesus being the perfect Paschal Lamb.

Dear Twayne B, Christinyou, Martyr.

I'm in agreement with all your above posts here on page 7 of this thread.

I find it a great joy to be a Christian.

ArtB wrote,

"Oracio, my brother in Christ, what God is doing in me is being done for all Christians. I just can not picture you throwing stones at violators of the moral laws, stoning which itself is required by the moral laws."

Hello ArtB. The stoning from the common people in the Old Testament(example:Deut.22:20-24) was not part of the moral Law of God, it was part of the civil Law of Israel under the Theocracy of God. Romans 13:1-4 shows us that that civil law has now been revised in this age; only the civil governing authorities, not the common people, are given the right by God to use the sword in their execution of justice.

The moral Law is the 10 Commandments, the 4th one being fulfilled through resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross. All the other 9 are carried over into the New Testament. Here is a brief article which I thought explained it better than me:

"The Problem of Mosaic Laws as Commands for New Testament Believers

A careful reading of the New Testament shows us that nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated as obligations for believers. The one exception is the command to keep the Sabbath. If the Mosaic Law has been done away, then why are these commandments repeated in the New Testament? Further, some commandments outside the Ten Commandments are even repeated in the New Testament. For instance, as a motivation for loving others, Paul referred to four of the Ten Commandments because they demonstrate this principle, but then, to summarize, he mentioned one from Leviticus 19:18, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” So in what sense has the Law been done away?

The Solution

Part of the purpose of the Law was to point men to the coming Savior through its shadows and types. Through the moral law, man could see God’s holy character as well as his own sinfulness and the infinite gulf that separates God and man. Through the ceremonial part of the Law (the priesthood, sacrifices, and tabernacle), man could find the solution to his sin by faith in what this part of the Law represented, a suffering Savior, one who would die as the Lamb of God. But even though no one could perfectly keep the Law, it was also designed for Israel’s immediate blessing by setting forth righteous principles that would show them how to love God and their fellow man. This would produce a stable and secure society as well as a testimony to the nations (Deut. 4:6-8).

Thus, in 613 commands the Mosaic Law represented an ethical code given by God to Israel to govern the nation until the coming of Messiah, but at their heart, they represented the moral law of God—righteous principles vital to humanity. Today, we are not under this code, but many of its righteous principles, the eternal laws of God, have been carried over and are part of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ (Rom. 8:2) or the law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2). In this, some of the former commands are carried over (Rom. 13:9), some new commands and guidelines are added (Eph. 4:11f; 1 Tim. 3:1f; 4:4), and some have been revised, as in the case of capitol punishment which is to be exercised by human government (Rom. 13:4).

It needs to be emphasized that the end of the Mosaic law, including the Ten Commandments, does not cancel or detract one iota from the eternal moral law of God. The moral principles of the ten laws did not begin with Sinai but are as eternal and immutable as the character of God. To understand this should dispel the fears of those who think the abolition of the Mosaic law leaves only a state of lawlessness.

The moral principles embodied in the law of Moses Paul calls “the righteousness of the law” (Rom 8:4), and shows that such principles are the goal of the Spirit-directed life in the same context in which he teaches the believer is not under the Mosaic law (Rom 6— .

This should be no more difficult to understand than the fact that a citizen of the United States is not under the laws of Canada, even though the moral principles underlying the laws of the two countries are the same. When a citizen of the United States becomes a citizen of Canada he does not remain under ten of the best laws of the United States. Nor does the fact that some of the laws of the United States are quite similar to some of the laws of Canada confuse or compromise his new exclusive responsibility to Canada. So the believing Jew of the first century moved entirely from the Mosaic economy of law into the new economy of grace instituted by Jesus Christ (John 1:17)."
Source:
http://christianity.thoughts.com/numenian/the-problem-of-mosaic-laws-as-commands-for-new-testament-believers

growingone:

1Ti 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; (9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (11) According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The law is absolutely in force for those who are lawless and disobedient. These people do not know God and are still lost in their sins. If we are born again we are led of the Spirit. The law does serve its purpose for these people. It convinces and convicts them of the fact that they are not righteous and have no hope of becoming righteous by living "good" lives.

Technically an unbeliever cannot be in the church as the church is comprised of all born again believers. If an unbeliever is actively fellowshipping in a local body and this continues for a long time I might question if that local body is functioning correctly and has the right priorities. I would like to think that the intimate fellowship that scripture describes in the local body would preclude an unbeliever being able to remain in close fellowship in the body for long without being challenged. I am talking only about the local fellowship and not about the obvious relationships with the world that we need to have in which we are in process of reaching them for Christ.

It is true that to a certain extent the law can restrain sin, although that depends on how much these people regard any form of moral absolute which is becoming more rare all the time. The real restraining work of the law was in the time between its inception and the coming of Jesus the Messiah. Believers no longer need a law to restrain sin because we have the inner witness and promptings of the Holy Spirit and are motivated by love and relationship rather than by punishment.

I believe the check on whether we are walking with God will be the check of the Holy Spirit and not the letter of the law. Oh how many times have I done something that the Holy Spirit checked me on and I have felt the immediate gnawing in my spirit that I have transgressed and I have to repent. This is not to say that we do not recognize certain things as right and others as wrong. There are absolutes that we know both from the law and from the dealings of the Holy Spirit. But really I think that in saying that I have come so far down the line from where we began that I question if we are not now talking about apples and oranges. The fact that these things that we simply recognize as right and wrong come from the same source as the written law and agree with the law does not necessarily imply that we are still in any way living under the law but rather that we are now in intimate relationship with the law giver.

by growingone on 2011/8/6 22:27:32

"The fact remains that the moral law is still in place for those who are not led by the Spirit (1 Timothy 1:8-11)."

Yes.Those who are not led by the Holy Spirit are all non-Christians. All Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Whom works in us daily, transforming our nature that we may be pleasing and fruitful in God Eyes.

by growingone on 2011/8/6 22:27:32

"If the moral law were to not be regarded, then a professing Christian who was committing adultery/looking at pornography/lying/stealing, etc (any obvious transgression of the moral law) could rightfully be in fellowship with a true Christian church without any rebuke. After all, the law of God is not to be regarded (sarcasm). The New Testament says otherwise:

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)"

Which 1 COR 5:11-13 in modern English reads:

1 Co 5:11-13
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler — not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges.REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
NASU

Paul is actually disregarding the Mosaic Law. The Fornication (gr. Pornei) means harlotry (including adultery and incest). The Mosaic Law required the death penalty for these two sins.

Paul goes on to describe incest between mother and son, that the son should be banished and handed over to Satan, so that his soul may eventually be saved. Even a sin as awful as this God can work in a Christian over time and still save him. Scripture clearly indicates that this fornicator will be saved by the workings of the Holy Spirit in him.

Please note that pornei/fornication, including incest, was not unlawful prior to the Mosaic Law. It was normal back then to marry and have sex with close relatives, including brothers and sisters.

BTW, LYING IS NOT NECESSARILY A SIN. The Lie that is a sin is bearing false witness against a person in a Court of Law that leads to unjust punishment and suffering, or a slanderous lie in the court of public opinion. Lying to save someones an innocent persons life is a good thing. The Jewish Midrash has many examples of when lying is permissible under the Mosaic Law.

AND ABOVE ALL, as a Christian, I walk in Faith, and not by the works required under the Mosaic Law. That is, I have God in me, via the indwelling Holy Spirit, my Helper, God in me, cleansing me of all unrighteousness, God's work in me. God who began in me a good work in me will complete until the day of Jesus my Savior.

As Paul writes: Phillipians 1:3 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

I have very high confidence and faith that these words are true.

by Christinyou on 2011/8/6 14:30:37

"If Christ is born again in us, He cannot sin, that is the only sinless perfection we have. How are we presented perfect to God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", Col 1:27-28. The Holy Spirit is also perfect and as we walk in Him in our soul and mind we are perfect also and still our minds are being renewed to the perfect Mind of Christ.
Perfect in Spirit, which is Christ, perfect in soul when walking in the Spirit, will be perfect in the flesh in the resurrection. Still capable of sinning in the flesh, with the Advocate whom we must run to in confessing."

Hello Phillip. I agree with you with the possible exception being perfect in the flesh in the resurrection.

Because of:

1 Co 15:50-57

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 " O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASU

Oracio, in reply to me stated: "The moral Law is the 10 Commandments, the 4th one being fulfilled through resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross. All the other 9 are carried over into the New Testament."

Sorry Oracio, I do not see this being true at all. First of all, it is not called the Mosaic Laws. It is called the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. Contract), a contract that the people of the Exodus wanted with God and they willingly signed on to this Contract with God. It bears Moses name because he read the entire Contract between them and God which listed 613 Laws that God required them to keep, it was never just ten commandments.

In addition to the 613 commandments, it includes the blessings and curses for keeping or not keeping all the Laws written therein. The Contract was between the people of the Exodus and God, and there were stiff penalties to the peoples for failure to keep the contract, and they would receive great blessings if they kept all the Laws. And they signed on to this Mosaic Covenant via Moses reading to them the entire Contract and then by accepting the Sprinkling of Blood upon them by Moses while they shouted in unison "This we will do." This is the only bilateral covenant God ever made with the peoples. This bilateral Covenant that God made with the Peoples was repeated with their offspring just prior to entering the Promised Land.

Oracio, the Mosaic Covenant, the only bilateral contract God made with the peoples, was annihilated. See Zec 11: 7 - 14 predicting the Mosaic Covenant being annihilated by God in its' entirety. Note also that Zec 11: 1-6 describes the burning of Herod's Temple in 70 AD.

I believe it was annihilated upon the death of Jesus death on the cross. At that moment, it was REPLACED by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Zec 11:7-14

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. 8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I SAID TO THEM, "IF IT GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, NEVER MIND!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT MAGNIFICENT PRICE AS WHAT I WAS VALUED BY THEM." So I took the THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AND THREW THEM TO THE POTTER IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD. 14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. NASU

Quote: Hello Phillip. I agree with you with the possible exception being perfect in the flesh in the resurrection.

Perfect in Spirit, which is Christ, perfect in soul when walking in the Spirit, will be perfect in the flesh in the resurrection. (But Now,) Still capable of sinning in the flesh, with the Advocate whom we must run to in confessing."

What is the possible exception? The life of the flesh is in the blood. We will not have blood in the resurrection, only flesh and bone as Jesus has now, we will be like Him.

I did not mean we would still be capable of sinning in the resurrection, but while we are still here on this earth.

Need clarification if this is what you were being in exception to. If not please help me understand what the exception is.

In Christ: Phillip

by Christinyou on 2011/8/10 14:20:20 wrote:

"Need clarification if this is what you were being in exception to. If not please help me understand what the exception is."

Sorry, In re-reading what you wrote, perhaps I misread your meaning. My point was a minor point, that 'Flesh and Blood can not inherit Heaven' based upon 1 Corinthians 15:50.

The exception I meant is that I'm not sure we will have physical bodies of flesh in Heaven based upon 1 Co 15:50: Paul wrote: "Now I say this, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

And: Mt 22:30-31
Jesus speaking: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. NASU

Or perhaps we will have a closet of fleshly bodies to try on as Angels do when they come to earth. But this idea is pure speculation on my part. though we do know angels have appeared on Earth in human bodies.

Find it amazing that people who claim to be followers of God can say that His law should be trashed! May the Lord enlighten us so that we can understand that his Law is not the problem...WE ARE! We can keep his law only by abiding in CHRIST but to say that THE LAW OF GOD CAN BE DISREGARDED is not sound! How then would I know what is right and wrong in this "relative" christian society? The 10 commandments of God written with his own finger will never pass away! Neither in this world or the world to come!

My Reply to kwamenat.

I wish you the best in your efforts to Keep the whole Mosaic law. Remember, the Law has 613 commandments, and these Mosaic Laws have punishments associated with them and need to be carried out. Since you believe the Mosaic Laws apply to Christians:

If someone dies on your property, You are required to purchase a calf, and cut its' throat over the spot where the person died in order to redeem his blood.

If you and another adult witness a couple in adultery, and found guilty, you are required to stone them to death, and after they die, to hang them on a tree, for all to see.

If you ever hire people to perform work for you, you must pay them on the same day they performed the work. Failure to do so is a violation of the Mosaic Laws.

If you see a person pursuing another man to kill him. you must prevent the pursuer from doing so even if it means you must kill the pursuer.

And so on.

As for me, I am under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

I need not perform any of these works (including the punishments), because Jesus shed His atoning blood on the cross that is the everlasting covering for all my sins. By His blood alone I am justified before God.

Gal 1:6-12

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

11. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:1-14

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so AbrahamBELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NASU

So if salvation is through faith and all efforts by man of Salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law is doomed, then why did God give the Mosaic Law:

Gal 3:15-29

Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith that was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
NASU

Gal 5

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
NASU

To follow Naild’s Heresy of putting oneself under the Old Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, will subject you to the yoke of slavery to the LAW. You nullify the grace and work of Jesus Christ. In the New Covenant with Jesus, we live by the Spirit, we walk by faith in God, and live under the Laws of Christ and not under the Mosaic Law. As Paul points out in Hebrews chapter 7, Jesus is not a Priest under the order of Levi, but has an eternal priesthood under the order of Melchizedek, and that where there is a change in priesthood, there is a change in law. Paul states that the “Old Mosaic Covenant” is replaced by the far superior “New Covenant” we Have in Jesus, as is predicted by the Hebrew (old) Testament.

Heb 7:11-8:13

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVERACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORNAND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8

8:1 A Better Ministry

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 [A New Covenant]

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANTWITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
NASU

And Zechariah, whom I quoted in my prior post above. He revealed the exact time when God annihilated the Mosaic covenant. It was at Jesus's death. Jesus kept THE LAW for us who believes Him and His atoning sacrifice, per the Word of God.

Remember, the Book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus is our High Priest, but He is not a Priest according to Moses, Jesus is a Priest according to a far superior and everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. And that where there is a Change of Priesthood there is a Change of Law. The Chapter 7 of Hebrews states that the Mosaic Laws was useless and worthless in that it could not save anyone.

I am saved and I truly believe that God will faithfully transform my nature over time that I may do the good I was created to do via the workings of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it will be for me to do so, naturally. And this is a gift from Him to me. This is my Faith, that I hear His word and I believe His word. I am not under the Mosaic Laws, because I am now under the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant.

This is what the Lord said after He gave them the 10 commandments

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

AND HE ADDED NO MORE!!!!!

for those of you who have time please read this explanation below by Richard Anthony to get a better understanding of why the 10 commandments will never pass away

The Ten Commandments are not part of the Law of Moses by Richard Anthony

Please, allow me to show you how the scripture itself proves that the "Ten Commandments" and the "law of Moses" are two completely separate laws. I will discuss seven points.

Simply stated, The "Law of Moses" has been known mainly as the "commandments of Moses" throughout the scripture, but can also be known as the commandments of God. On the other hand, the Ten Commandments are known only as the direct commandments of God, and never ever as the "commandments of Moses." And if they are not known as the commandments of Moses in the scripture, what right have we to call it such?

One

The major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were recorded:

Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."

No one can confuse the Ten Commandments writing with the way the Mosaic law was produced:

Deuteronomy 31:9, "And Moses wrote this law."

Two

Another major point of difference between these two laws is the way they were given to God's People.

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

It's important to notice that after God wrote the Ten Commandments, he "added no more" to this Law, yet God gave Moses statutes, precepts, judgments, and ordinances afterwards. If the Mosaic law was part of the Ten Commandments, there would be a contradiction here, because God did add more to this law! But there was no contradiction, because God considered the Ten Commandments to be a separate Law. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God himself to the people, so that God would instruct them. There was no mediator involved! Moses was not the mediator of the Ten Commandments. But he was the mediator of the sacrificial laws:

Exodus 33:9, "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses."

2 Chronicles 34:14, "...Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses."

Unlike the Ten Commandments, in which God talked directly to the people, the sacrificial and ceremonial laws were spoken to Moses only. Moses was the mediator of these temporary laws, but not the Ten Commandments.

Three

God made known this distinction to Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb:

Deuteronomy 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it."

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments which "he commanded you", from the statutes which "he commanded me" to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments were designated as separate and distinct "law".

[See also Exodus 19:7; 39:1,5,7,21,26,29,31,32,42,43; 40:19,21,23,25,27,29,32 and Leviticus 7:38; 8:9,13,17,21,29: 9:10; 27:34]

Four

2 Kings 21:8, "Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them."

Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a "law". Two different laws are being described now. God speaks of the law "I commanded" (The Ten Commandments) and also of the law "Moses commanded" (the law of Moses).

[See also Leviticus 9:5 and Deuteronomy 33:4 for the commandments of Moses. Deuteronomy 6:2; 8:11; 11:22,27,28; 13:18; 15:5; 19:9; 27:10; 28:1,13,15 and Joshua 22:5 for two different laws. And Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 for the commandments of God]

Five

Daniel was inspired to make the same careful distinction:

Daniel 9:11, "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

Once more we see "thy law" (God's law, the Ten Commandments) and "the law of Moses" (the commandments of Moses), and are different in content. There are no curses recorded in the Ten Commandments that God wrote. Only the book of Moses has curses (Deuteronomy.29:20,21,27, 2 Chron.34:24).

[See also Exodus 20:6 for a passage on how the Ten Commandments were considered God's commandments, and not Moses' commandments]

Six

The following verses show that the "Ten Commandments" and the "law of Moses" are 2 separate laws, because they were separated physically:

Deuteronomy 31:24-26, "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

The book of statutes and judgments which Moses wrote in a book was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark. In contrast, the Law written by God on tables of stone was placed inside the ark of the covenant.

Exodus 25:16, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."

The spiritual lesson of this physical separation is that we are to spiritually separate the Ten Commandments from the laws of Moses.

Seven

And, finally, the most important point. Did you know God himself wrote the Ten Commandments a second time? Moses broke the first Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34:1, "Hew thee two tablets of stone like unto first; and I will write upon the tablets the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break."

Deuteronomy 10:1 "...Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount; and make thee an ark of wood."

Now, first of all, if the Ten Commandments were part of the Law of Moses, there would be no need for God to write the Ten Commandments a second time after Moses broke the original Ten Commandments. Why? Because the Ten Commandments would already exist inside, and be included in, and be a part of, the book of Moses. The book of Moses still existed at that time, and was still being observed. But God decided to write the ten commandments a second time, which would have been meaningless if it was considered a part of the law of Moses, or the book of Moses. So obviously, God considered His Law (His Ten Commandments), to be separate from the Law of Moses (the commandments of Moses). This shows that the two laws are to be considered separate and distinct laws from each other.

An Illustration

You and I can enter into a Covenant with each other. Our covenant can be an agreement for you to do one thing and I another. Our covenant can also be based upon the Ten Commandments. We will agree to not steal, murder, or commit adultery. Now, does this mean the Ten Commandments did not exist before we entered into our covenant with each other? No, it does not. Here's another question. When our covenant passes away because we fulfilled our agreement with each other, does that mean the Ten Commandments, which this covenant was based upon, are also passed away? No, it does not.

This illustrates how I see the Ten Commandments. Before Moses confirmed the covenant, it was a sin to steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. These laws existed before the covenant at Sinai happened. And after this covenant waxed old, and was replaced with a new covenant, the laws that say do not steal, murder, and commit adultery did not pass away with the old covenant. God still expects us to obey those laws, which reflect His Will.

Conclusion

To summarize, we can note several distinctions in the two laws. They had different authors, were originally written on different materials, were spoken by different law-givers, were placed in different locations in the ark, and they had totally different content. This shows, by example, how they are to be considered and treated as separate laws. In addition, the Ten Commandments were spoken from God's mouth (Exodus 19:19; 20:1, Deuteronomy.4:10,12; 5:22-26; 18:16, Nehemiah 9:13), and God said he would not "alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalm 89:34). The Ten Commandments went out of God's lips, so the Ten Commandments could not have been altered!

To give you a hypothetical situation, if the Ten Commandments were a part of the book of Moses, then whatever happens to the book of Moses must also, by definition, happen to the Ten Commandments. Don't you agree?

Well, if the Ark caught on fire, and the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), the law of Moses, suddenly burned to a crisp, would the Ten Commandments be burned up as well? No! But will the law of ordinances be burned up? Yes! The priesthood laws? Yes! The sacrificing laws? Yes! The Ten Commandments on Stone? No! Why? Because they were recorded on different materials. The tables of stone symbolize the imperishable nature of the Ten Commandments!

Now, here's a real example that will prove that they are two separate laws. Does God still expect us to sacrifice lamps, heifers, and other animals today, to atone for our sins? No, these sacrificial laws were changed. Does God still expect us to not steal, murder, lie, and commit adultery? Yes! Therefore, this simple fact that God does not expect us to obey the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, but does expect us to keep the laws of the Ten Commandments, prove that they are not part of the same law!

Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed Christ Jesus. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16,19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ, and this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." (Psalm 111:8).

-Richard Anthony

This is what the Lord said after He gave them the 10 commandments

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

AND HE ADDED NO MORE!!!!!

for those of you who have time please read this explanation below by Richard Anthony to get a better understanding of why the 10 commandments will never pass away

kwamenat: I am not wanting to debate or argue with you about this issue but I would be interested in how you see these verses.

2Co 3:1-9 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? (2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: (3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. (4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: (5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; (6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: (8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

It seems to me that this is referring to the ten commandments as they were the only ones that were graven in stone and the only portion of the law given in which Moses face shone with glory. Then in verse 13 Paul makes a pretty emphatic statement. He says this.

2Co 3:12-14 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: (13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Notice that he speaks of the ten commandments as having been abolished.

Now I would agree that we are not saying that the law including the ten commandments are bad or evil or that they are not good and from a Holy God and therefore holy themselves. I also am not saying that we should now kill because we are not under the law. Paul dealt with this in Romans 6 very clearly.

But I would wonder what your take is on these verses.

by kwamenat on 2011/8/12 10:50:26

"This is what the Lord said after He gave them the 10 commandments

Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

AND HE ADDED NO MORE!!!!!

for those of you who have time please read this explanation below by Richard Anthony to get a better understanding of why the 10 commandments will never pass away

The Ten Commandments are not part of the Law of Moses by Richard Anthony"

My reply:

Perhaps Richard Anthony is a 7th Day Adventist, for they insist all other Christians are sinners for worshiping God on Sundays rather than from Sundown on Friday through Sundown on Saturday, as prescribed in the Mosaic Covenant between God's people of the Exodus and God.

Well let's look at only listing of the 10 commandments in the Old Testament where God instructs Moses to write these 10 Commandments onto the Stone Tablets.

Ex 34:1-5

Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. So be ready by morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to Me on the top of the mountain. 3 No man is to come up with you, nor let any man be seen anywhere on the mountain; even the flocks and the herds may not graze in front of that mountain." So he cut out two stone tablets like the former ones, and Moses rose up early in the morning and went up to Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and he took two stone tablets in his hand. NASU

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Ex. 34:27-28.)

1. Ex 34:14 You shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. [Details of why follow thru verse 16].

2. Ex 34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. "You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.

4. "The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep. 20 " You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons. None shall appear before Me empty-handed.

5. "You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.

6. "You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

7. " Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.

8. " You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning.

9. "You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God.

10. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."

Ex 34:27-28

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. NASU

Yes, these are the ten commandments, which are written on stone tablets, as per the Holy Scriptures as posted above.

NOW Ro 7:7-12

LETS LOOK AT ONE MORE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT UNDERMINES YOUR POST.

Ro 7:7-12

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. NASU

What Paul wrote is exactly why the Mosaic Covenant failed to perfect anyone. Instead, it condemned everyone, except for Jesus who kept the entire Law, and then took upon Himself the punishment we deserved for our sins, via the Blood of Jesus that atones for all the sins we ever committed or will commit, for all who accept His finished work on the cross and accepts His blood as full atonement for all our sins. This is why salvation is a gift from God to us through the finished work of Jesus. By the one sin of Adam we were all condemned to death, by the atoning blood of Jesus, THE PERFECT PASCHAL LAMB, WE HAVE LIFE ETERNAL AND ABUNDANT, again - a GIFT FROM GOD TO US.

I AM SAVED, and GOD dwells in me, The HOLY SPIRIT. I am in daily fellowship with God. I do not even think about the Mosaic Law. I live by the LAWS of Jesus Christ. As Hebrews points out, where there is a change of priesthood, there is a Change of Law, Jesus is not a priest of the temporal Priesthood of Levi, Jesus is a Priest of the FAR SUPERIOR Everlasting PRIESTHOOD of Melchizedek. And the book of HEBREWS states: THAT WHERE THERE IS A CHANGE OF PRIESTHOOD, THERE IS A CHANGE OF LAW!

kwamenat, I think you and Richard Anthony need to change your stories. They were factually incorrect.

(All scripture quoted from NASU.)

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I think what Paul is saying here is not so much about the law as it is about the inability of the flesh to follow the law...it is only the spirit that can fulfill the requirements of the law.
So legalism would be a poor copy of our attempt to fulfill the law in the flesh, but in no way does that imply that the law itself is invalidated. Rather, the flesh was only condemned by it, as evidence against it. Yet there is no longer any condemnation if we are in Christ (who was not condemned by the law, yet rather fulfilled it). So the law stands in testimony against us if we remain in the flesh, and it is powerless to condemn us in Christ Jesus.
So, it is not that the law is in anyway negated by this, it represents God's revelation of His nature, it is good. But rather, if we are in Christ Jesus, we are to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh, and He is able to fulfill the law in us.

Leeza, The Mosaic Covenant is actually a contract between the people of the Exodus and God.

Many of these people of the Exodus were gentiles, and the rest were God's Chosen People, Offspring of Jacob.

Part A of this bi-lateral Contract consisted of 613 Laws found in the Pentateuch, which were given to Moses as detailed the 1st 5 books of the Bible.

Part B was a listing of all the great blessings the peoples who kept all the laws written in the Torah. If any of them actually kept all the Laws God gave them in writing.

Part C was all the curses and punishments each person would receive should they fail to keep all requirements of the LAW.

Part D. God knew that these people and all their offspring would never keep the LAW and their death would be required. God allowed for an unblemished lamb to be sacrificed annually as a substitute in their place, this Lamb was brought into the courtyard where it remained for the next 3 days so that it could be examined by all the people and observe that this Lamb was truly unblemished, if so, the lamb was slaughtered and the Lambs innocent blood would cover all sins committed by the people of God in the past year, that God may not send the Angel of Death to kill them all for breaking their Covenant with Him.

God did not kill the other people in the world who did not observe the Passover because they never entered into the Mosaic Covenant with God. It only applied to His Chosen People.

To be clear, the Mosaic Covenant consisted of 613 Laws. No one ever kept all the laws that applied to them, no human born on Earth ever will [except Jesus]. That is why the book of Hebrews says that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could not save anyone, In Galatians Paul writes that the purpose of the Mosaic Laws was to cause sin to increase, revealing to us our need for a totally New Covenant with Jesus, whereby we are not saved by keeping the works written in the Mosaic Law.

And because we are now Christians does not mean we are capable of keeping the Mosaic Laws. As Paul wrote, if we put ourselves under the Mosaic Law, then Christ died in vain. We are saved by the blood of the perfect Paschal Lamb, Jesus Christ, we are saved by His atoning blood, one sacrifice for all time. His blood covers our sins that we may live and have life abundant. We who accept this have fellowship with God and we with each other. We are the Bride of Christ. We have the indwelling of the Holy spirit through whom God works in us to transform our very nature so that we may naturally do the good that God created us to do.

I am dead to the Law of Moses and alive to Jesus Christ. God is in me, working in me to and I am confident of this very thing:

Php 1:6-7
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you [and me] will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. NASU

We are in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, we are under the Laws of Jesus Christ.

We are under the Laws of Christ.

Though I know I will never be sinless in this life, I also know that Holiness is not the absence of sin in my life, for a rock never sins.

Holiness is the presence of God in our life.

The many laws of Moses requires that I keep all of them that would apply to me throughout my life, in order to be saved. But by the Laws of Jesus Christ, God keeps me [and you!].

I am under a New Covenant with God whereby I am saved by God, and where there is change of Covenants, there is a change of Law (Book of Hebrews). I am under the Laws of Jesus Christ, therefore I am not lawless. The Laws of Christ are far greater than the Laws of Moses.

Please note that I did not say anything about it's okay now to murder people, or steal, etc. Christ has set me free, why should I choose to do hateful things to others when God has filled me with His Love and Mercy and His goodness.

The most important word is LOVE! It is the Royal Law. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus has answered the question of who a good neighbor is, and we are to be that neighbor.

"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

And there is 'The Law of Liberty': as I measure unto others, so shall it be the standard to how I will be measured. It's best for us to forgive one another, to be merciful. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement.

Shakespeare gives the NT take on the Law of Liberty, In his play, the Merchant of Venice, revealing the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant we have in Jesus, beginning with the words in 'The Merchant of Venice' - "THE QUALITY OF MERCY IS NOT STRAINED ..." and continues through the end of the court scene.

AND AS YOU MENTION IN YOUR POST Leeza, THE 3RD LAW OF THE NEW COVENANT WE HAVE IN JESUS:

"The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", God dwells in us, He redeemed us through the Finished work of Jesus on the Cross and we ARE sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And he will return to redeem His purchase of us. And He who began a good work in you [and me] will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

This last sentence is a Theological Fact, for what God says He will do, It will be done. I trust Him completely that He will do so in me according to His good will.

More Food for thought from Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart:

"It is a great consolation for me to remember that the Lord, to whom I had drawn near in humble and child-like faith, has suffered and died for me, and that He will look on me in love and compassion."
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

"As death, when we come to consider it closely, is the true goal of our existence, I have formed during the last few years such close relations with this best and truest friend of mankind, that his image is not only no longer terrifying to me, but is indeed very soothing and consoling! And I thank my God for graciously granting me the opportunity ... of learning that death is the key which unlocks the door to our true happiness."

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Thank you so much for your lengthy and helpful explanation. I am going to have to read this a couple times, to understand it more fully. I dont think I was on the same page :)
Thanks!

Leeza wrote: "I am going to have to read this a couple times, to understand it more fully."

To be honest with you, I had to read it a few times to make sure I understood it." :) :)

lol! :)
It is very well written, just my brain is ready to retire for the night.
Blessings and thank you!

Leeza,

I agree with all that is been said in reply to my last post but i just found a problem with the topic for the thread "I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me". Simply obeying the law does not give you salvation but you cannot also say that it is to be disregarded or trashed! By abiding in Christ we automatically live a life that is not contrary to God's commandments. Then we can say with David in Psalm 40:8 "I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."

PS: Someone stated that the article i posted in my last post was by a Seventh-day Adventist. I simply typed the subject in google and that article came up. That's the other problem with certain folks on this site- they answer questions with pre-conceived thoughts! Someone else can post the same thing i posted but the answer will be structured with my denomination in mind. Oh well!

Galatians 4:22-31 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

We are not children of the Law, we are children free grace in Christ Jesus. Which is the Greatest Love that could be manifest, The Cross of Christ, who loved us first, So all the Law is fulfilled in ONE WORD;

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This makes 1 Cor 13 the whole fulfillment of the Law. If we exchange the Name of Christ Jesus for Love in the Scripture, especially 1 Cor 13, Is not Christ the whole fulfillment of the Law, and He is birthed in us in new Life, being born again of incorruptable Seed of the Father.

In Christ by His Love in us, fulfilling the whole Law, Not by works lest any should boast: Phillip

Dear Kwamenat, sorry, but I dont understand what you are referring to, could you explain more?

I agree with all that is been said in reply to my last post but i just found a problem with the topic for the thread "I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me". Simply obeying the law does not give you salvation but you cannot also say that it is to be disregarded or trashed! By abiding in Christ we automatically live a life that is not contrary to God's commandments. Then we can say with David in Psalm 40:8 "I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."

kwamenat and Leeza: Please forgive me for jumping in the middle as I know kwamenat addressed Leeza here, but if I may I would like to comment.

I would agree 110% if it were possible that simply obeying the law cannot give salvation, and I really doubt any of us would disagree with that statement. But the next statement is the sticking point. "you cannot say the law is to be disregarded or trashed."

I don't think that anyone is saying that the law is to be counted as refuse. Maybe I am just sounding the same horn in a different way, I am not sure and I hope not, but Paul never said the law was unholy or "trash". He did say that the law was good and righteous and holy. It came from God after all. But I know there are certain denominations, the SDA for one, who teach it as a requirement that Christians continue to keep certain portions of the law as a part of or even a means to continuing to please God after salvation by grace. I would have to disagree with this point of view and I feel like I have a great deal of scripture upon which to base that opinion. Paul continued to say that the only thing the law could produce was death. You see, the law was the standard that we were all measured against and found wanting, thus its purpose according to Paul.

Paul made an interesting statement about this subject in his letter to Galatia. He said that all of the law and the prophets was fulfilled in this, that we should live our neighbor as ourselves. How do we do this? I think none of us would say, "I am enabled to love my neighbor as myself through my strict adherence to the moral law of God." We would recognize that a man could treat his neighbor wonderfully and have absolutely no love for his neighbor. Love comes from the born again spirit of a man in communion with, or filled with if you want to say it that way, the Spirit of God. All would recognize total inability to love apart from God's Spirit in us. What looks like acts of love are not love at all apart from the changed heart through the Spirit of God.

In Jeremiah we have the prophecy that there is coming a day when Israel will no longer know God after commandment and ordinance according to the old covenant, but rather...Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews, quotes the fulfillment of this prophecy in Hebrews 8. We are now born again through faith and not through the law but we also fulfill the law in that the Spirit of God has written His laws in our hearts. Not the law of ordinances, but rather the law of the Spirit. It is life not death according to Romans 8.

So I keep the law of God when I live in and walk after the Spirit. I do not count the law as a thing to be disregarded or trashed because the law is written in my heart and I live from it. This is the opposite of the law being written externally on tablets of stone and imposed upon me regardless of my spiritual condition. But the law inside is not the mere shadow of the law that is in carnal or fleshly ordinances but rather the real thing itself that is from the Spirit of God.

Does that clear it up any?

Seventh Day Adventist do not believe that keeping the law will get you to heaven. Not sure where people get that from. We simply believe that Jesus did not come to abolish the 10 commandments. How could He when he infact gave them to us. We believe that if we abide in Jesus we will automatically obey the 10 commandments. It's not like i go around with a list of commandments making sure to keep all of it. Now that Christ abides in me I keep the commandments "freely". It is not a burden to me cause I am grateful of the sacrifice of Christ and I am willing to obey His commandments. It is only through Christ that we are saved and that is what Paul was pointing out to the church of Galatia..Through Christ and Christ alone are we saved! But you can't tell me you have Christ in your heart yet you live contrary to His law continuously. If there is no law what does Revelation 14:12 mean then...
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

By the way, most of the feedbacks are awesome. I believe all those things already but I am really convinced that the 10 commandments were not only for a certain people but everyone that God created.

Dear twayneb
That statement referring to the law: "you cannot also say that it is to be disregarded or trashed! " confused me too. That was why I asked for more explanation. I did not think anyone was implying that we should disregard or trash the law. I really like your explanation about how we relate to the law as Christians. Yes, grace alone! and yes, that grace works...as the Spirit works in us, He demostrates His character in us. The character of Christ fulfills the law.

Seventh Day Adventist do not believe that keeping the law will get you to heaven. Not sure where people get that from. We simply believe that Jesus did not come to abolish the 10 commandments. How could He when he infact gave them to us.

I know that SDA does not believe that keeping the law is the way to salvation. They believe in salvation by grace alone. It is the subsequent view of the law that I question. I recall listening to and watching several prominent SDA preachers as they taught on the keeping of the sabbath. It was strongly implied if not explicitly stated that the mark of the beast was worship on a day other than the sabbath. It was also stated that one who did not keep the sabbath could not be born again. Now I am not sure if I misunderstood, which is entirely possible. I also know that among the SDA there can be variant points of view in regards to these things so not every person views the law in exactly the same way.

I do have some questions that come to mind. As far as you understand it, if we must keep the letter of the law as a born again believer, even though we do it "freely" and as a "grateful sacrifice" what happens if we fail to keep a portion of that law? How do you determine which part of the law you should and should not keep? Could it not be debated endlessly what is ceremonial and what is moral? Does this distinction even exist in scripture or is it simply man's categorization? What happens if I do not worship on Saturday but instead on Tuesday night?

You get my line of questioning I hope. Paul tells us in Galatians to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free and to be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. This yoke of bondage Paul talks about is the law. He goes on to talk of circumcision. This circumcision was not simply "ceremonial" but went to the heart of the issue of consecration and separation that God's people were to walk in. Yet Paul says that if you are circumcised then Christ profits you nothing, that you have put yourself back under the old covenant. In fact he says you are fallen from grace. (Note: He is not saying that the medical procedure is the problem, but the motivation for being circumcised. He is saying that circumcision in order to please God or to be right in His sight is the problem.)

Please don't take me wrong. I am not being contentious. I am just trying to figure out how you see this thing.

Blessings kwamenat.

Twayneb,

I understand what you are saying my good brother. I must admit, some pastors are not doing the church any justice when it comes to the way of Salvation. However, one thing I like about the Seventh-day Adventist Church is that they uphold the word of God. I went through all the doctrines one by one to make sure they are sound before teaching or sharing it. I am continuously studying to find truth and error amidst the countless doctrines in the Christian circle.

For example, you asked about the Mark of the Beast. It will take a study of Revelation and Daniel to understand who the beast power is. Perhaps we can do that on a new thread. But for now check out these blasphemous claims that the Catholic Church has in their library collection in connection with the Beast Power and its mark. If you doubt these statement then do your research to validate these references. It is in their own books. If you can't click on this site, copy and paste it. YOU WILL BE SHOCKED!

http://jlfoundation.net/papacy.html

You asked about circumcision. It was not part of the 10 commandments.

Also, You did not answer my question about Revelation 14:12 which states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

What does the commandments of God mean in this text?

Here is Matthew Henry's Commentary about the text:

14:6-13 The progress of the Reformation appears to be here set forth. The four proclamations are plain in their meaning; that all Christians may be encouraged, in the time of trial, to be faithful to their Lord. The gospel is the great means whereby men are brought to fear God, and to give glory to him. The preaching of the everlasting gospel shakes the foundations of antichrist in the world, and hastens its downfal. If any persist in being subject to the beast, and in promoting his cause, they must expect to be for ever miserable in soul and body. The believer is to venture or suffer any thing in obeying the commandments of God, and professing the faith of Jesus. May God bestow this patience upon us. Observe the description of those that are and shall be blessed: such as die in the Lord; die in the cause of Christ, in a state of union with Christ; such as are found in Christ when death comes. They rest from all sin, temptation, sorrow, and persecution; for there the wicked cease from troubling, there the weary are at rest. Their works follow them: do not go before as their title, or purchase, but follow them as proofs of their having lived and died in the Lord: the remembrance of them will be pleasant, and the reward far above all their services and sufferings. This is made sure by the testimony of the Spirit, witnessing with their spirits, and the written word.(Matthew Henry's Commentary on Rev 14: 6-13)

He spends time emphasizing those who will triump trials and tribulations because of their union with God. But he also states this.."The believer is to venture or suffer any thing in obeying the commandments of God, and professing the faith of Jesus". What do you think about this statement?

I am not taking you wrong. I know you are not been contentious. I am actually amazed by how many people love studying and teaching the Word on this Site (honestly & sadly, probably more than 50% at my church are into the Word like you guys) I hope you understand where I am coming from.

To set the record straight, I do not think anyone on this site is going to hell because they do not keep the 7th day Sabbath. For who am I to make such a claim! For we will all be held accountable to the light given to us through our diligent study in the Word. As we continue to study and pray consistently, the Lord will reveal to us truth and error. We may not be on the same page in understanding right now or probably never but if we believe in Christ we shall not perish according to His own words! Oh the joy to have the assurance of Salvation. Shalom!

Brother in Christ,
Kwamenat

Why do we have the sabbath on Sunday? I am not a legalist, but I do not want to dishonor God by picking a different day, I had never heard this before.

Looking at History the starting church was mainly Jewish and so they honored the Sabbath on Saturday but also wanted to Honor the day the Lord Jesus was resurrected which they called the Lord's Day which is Sunday or the first day of the week.

It eventually was seen as a Jewish custom through the teaching of Paul that Christ Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and thus IS our Sabbath, we are now free to celebrate the Lord's Day and a Sabbath Day at anytime.

So when people get together Sunday they aren't practicing a Sabbath day or day of rest because that would be on Saturday but celebrating the Lord's day or the Resurrection of Jesus Christ which is Sunday.

Thanks, mguldner

by kwamenat on 2011/8/17 14:36:12

"PS: Someone stated that the article i posted in my last post was by a Seventh-day Adventist. I simply typed the subject in google and that article came up. That's the other problem with certain folks on this site- they answer questions with pre-conceived thoughts! Someone else can post the same thing i posted but the answer will be structured with my denomination in mind. Oh well!"

To clarify for the record, I never wrote that the article WAS posted by a 7th day Adventist.

Here is what I actually wrote:

"Perhaps Richard Anthony is a 7th Day Adventist, for they insist all other Christians are sinners for worshiping God on Sundays rather than from Sundown on Friday through Sundown on Saturday, as prescribed in the Mosaic Covenant between God's people of the Exodus and God."

Perhaps the word 'Perhaps' means something. :)

Since you raised this issue, I decided to check on Richard Anthony.

Richard Anthony states: "Religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ."

"The reason for denominations is because those in the assembly (church) did not "speak the same thing", and that caused "divisions among them", and were no longer "joined together." Therefore, they formed different ‘Churches’ because of all the ‘contentions among them’. Just like how, in the above verses, those in the first century divided themselves and said they were of the assembly of "Chloe, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.", denominations today divide themselves and say they are of the Church of the "Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Quakers, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc."

Apparently then, Richard Anthony is not a Seventh Day Adventists.

And as for all his arguments against all Christian Denominations, The denomination Richard Anthony belongs to is the CHRIST ASSEMBLY. But they KNOW they are not a denomination, but rather, the one true Christian Church who worship on Saturdays. All others are just divided denominations.

Go Figure?

kwamenat: Ahh! I see what you are saying I think. You imply that the SDA believe that we must keep the ten original commandments of the law but are not bound by any other?

The problem that I see with that is that the Bible does not make any distinction between the original ten and the remaining 600+. The only NT mention of the original ten is a passage which calls the original ten a ministration of death, a dead letter, and clearly states that they have been done away with.

The commandments of God are not those that are written in stone or on paper. These are external and were intended to show us our depravity, to condemn us. God's true commandments are so far above these and can only be kept through the Holy Spirit living out through us. The first is enforced from the outside on unregenerate flesh. The second eminates from the inside from a born again Spirit.

The 10 commandments are all in the Law of Moses, including a chemical formula for guilt of Adultry. The Sermon on the mount and what Jesus said about divorce are the crowning glory of the Law. "if you even look upon a woman with lust", you have commited adultry. All this is taken away in Christ, we now serve our Savior out of Love unto life, not the Law unto death, that is all the Law, not just those we can pick and choose to keep. Not one jot or tittle, or you have broken the whole law.

Matthew 5:18-20 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

How does my righteousness exceed the scribes and Pharisees?

Colossians 1:9-14 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Not by the Law but by the power of God, delivered from darkness.

The Law is darkness in which we die. It proves how sinful we really are. We are made perfect in Christ, not by what we do, but by what Jesus did on the Cross which God intended from before the foundation of the world. In Christ. Eph 1:4

How are we made righteous and perfect before God our Father?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who made us this way in Christ?

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of (((Him))) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of (((God))) is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

No law here, but Pure Grace. Now we are the fulfillment of the law not keepers of the Law. Christ is the only one that kept the Law and He is now birthed in us He is our Love, Life, and Law keeper by the power of the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness through the advocate if we mess up. Run to confession and we are cleansed from all unrighteousness by the Power of God and we will overcome.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is our only law;

Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

WE do have the Holy Spirit and we will walk in Him and in Christ Gods only begotten Son who has made us sons, by the power of God not the Law.

In Christ our only Glory: Phillip

So what do you make of the statements by the Catholic
Church in the link i send? I will ask again, what is Revelation 14:12 saying - "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God and the faith of Jesus".

What exactly does the commandments of God mean in this passage? And if it is done away with why should it be mentioned in Revelation?

Leeza,

Go through the 10 commandments written with God's own finger. The christian world has no problem with all 9 commandments but the 4th commandment? Why so?

Read the 4th commandment carefully in Exodus 20 and see why the Lord asked them to keep it holy? It said because in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

It had nothing to do with the Israelites but rather creation in Genesis 2:3 - "Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made"

Pray about it and allow the Spirit of God to lead you to the truth!

Read what other denominations have to say about the day of worship

http://jlfoundation.net/churchescomment.htm

I think this topic has been well exhausted so I don't have anymore to say.

Brother in Christ,
Kwamenat

Actually mentioned 3 times :

Revelation 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

One of the reasons some anti-commandment theorists have invented the pre-trib rapture. To take themselves out of the picture, because they would have to change their present day theology, would they still be around at that time.

However since there is no biblical pre-trib rapture the above 3 verses describe the actual believers. If your understanding grace is not future compatible to that it cannot be biblical grace.

i can only assume what happened to the other non-commandment keeping folks at that time, they are either taken out, converted to the group of saints, or they follow the beast without realizing it, you know the one that is also called the 'lawless one' that teaches that there is no law or he would know about it. And of course he will call that 'grace' and have all the other redefined christian terms ready to keep the blind in darkness using all the "right, but void of content expressions".

Actually mentioned 3 times :

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

All three of these scriptures apply if they have the testimony of Christ and the Faith of Jesus Christ in them.

The believers in Christ are saved by Grace, I cannot keep the Law to be saved, none can. I keep the Law because I am saved, with the Spirit of Christ in me and the Holy SPirit by the power of God the Father through Faith, Now the perfect Law lives in me and He is the standard I can now keep by His Power, not by the Laws power, which if it had the power to save, we would not need the Cross of Jesus or Grace or the Faith of Jesus Christ in us, to grow into the image of The Only Begotten Son of God, all we would need is the Law, NOT.

In Christ by His perfection of the total fulfillment of the Law and given to the believer by faith:

Acts 15:8-11 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

There are many more scriptures that show that by Grace through the Faith of the Son of God we are saved, not by the Law, which kills.

In Christ by the Faith of the Son of God: Phillip

Martyr:

I think that might be a good way to put it. It is a crossing up of the purpose of the law and of the definition of a commandments. It might also be a paradigm problem. I drew a grid of nine dots on the blackboard for my incoming math students last week. I told them to connect the dots with four straight lines without lifting their pencil from the paper. With only one exception every student adopted a paradigm that told them to stay within the borders of the nine dots rather than looking outside of that particular box. It demonstrated that sometimes we try to fit all of our solutions into a predetermined paradigm of our own.

In this case the paradigm is that God requires a born again believer to in some way to keep external ordinances. It is hard to come out of this paradigm as it is so deeply entrenched. We are born corrupt and when the law comes to us sin revives and we die. Yet we still try to "be good" through the keeping of external ordinances. Scripture calls them carnal ordinances because they are carnal meaning of the flesh. They are fleshly in nature, or external. Paul spends a lot of energy, and words, to teach the opposite.

I think one of the primary keys is in Romans 6 and 7. The rebirth requires a death. It is a death to sin. It is a death to the flesh and its carnal desires. If we are born again we are dead to sin and alive unto God.

Now I said that we do not have to keep external ordinances. This bothers some who worry that this is synonymous with lawlessness or licentiousness. Nothing is further from the truth. A person who is born again and is living from the Spirit of God within will live more holy on accident than they ever did on purpose before. If I am born again I do not have to worry about the commandment that says "thou shalt not commit adultery" because the Spirit of God will convict me over the slightest lust. I will be living out of the love of God. The Holy Spirit lives through me. This means that the life I live is no longer my own and I am no longer living it. Christ lives in me. So I will live as holy a life as Christ. That is Paul's point.

But I still battle the flesh which is yet unregenerated. So there is temptation, and there is a struggle. But the ten commandments never gave me power over the struggle but according to Paul gave the sin power over me. So to live in the spirit and obey it is to obey the commandments and ot keep them. They are now written in my heart and come from within.

1 Cor 1: 10, another brother.

In Christ: Phillip

Twayneb, you said, "So to live in the spirit and obey it is to obey the commandments and to keep them. They are now written in my heart and come from within"

I couldn't agree more with this. blessings my brother!

That is the one sentence we all agree with I think. What this then practically means for everyone is based on several different "other sentences" that somehow try to take way from that basic, easy to agree with truth.

What are for example "external ordinances" ? Are any of these involved in the 10 commandments?

Is Jesus fulfilling these in me, or would he want my cooperative participation? Is mental consent on my part seen as a act of faith, or would I want to make a outside reality out of it in my daily life?

I'm asking these questions after reading the prophets whenever they mention outward activities in the new millennium.

Some of these hint with evidence at the fact that a few things will change from the current practices of most denominations, for example the "christian" holidays will no longer exist, however the biblical holidays will be still in effect, and not "christianized" or "spirtualized".

Hi Travis;

""They are now written in my heart and come from within" ""

What does this mean and how does it differ from Christ in us, who is the living Word, The Holy Spirit in us being the revealer of Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip: The Jews kept external ordinances. They were imposed upon them. We now have the laws of God written in our hearts. In other words, when we are born again and have the Spirit of God fellowshipping with our own spirit (we often call it having the Spirit of God inside of us) we are now governed by the Spirit of God. It is really the same thing I think as Christ living in us, or rather through us. So our actions are an outflow of that which is internal rather than a dogged obedience to that which is being imposed externally.

Travis, I was just making a distinction of who the scripture was speaking to, in writing words in hearts and the living Word now being our whole life and our spirit by His Spirit living in us. I don't want to start a way, but I believe the word written in hearts pertains to the elect remnant of Israel in the 1000 yr. reign of Christ on earth.
I believe there is a difference in the rhema word written in hearts and Logos living word by which we are born again, Christ Himself being the very center of our life.

Thank you, Phillip

I hope we are all seeing how we create a paradox when we completely take the commandments of God out of the picture.

For example, if you teach a new member in the faith that law of God is done away with by taking them through the writings of Paul, what will you say when you finally get to Revelations and all of a sudden you read texts like....

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If it takes until Revelation it's late, but not too late to recognize the error. However it would have been possible to understand it earlier, if the position from where these verses are written would have been rightly understood. These are all proof-texts to check if someone is actually born of the Spirit, or not:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

This is not millenium stuff, or to a selected group of believers only, this is now. The ones having the commandments written on their hearts can check if that has actually happened, it's kind of a reverse-check to see if we have received the Holy Spirit that makes us WANT to please God, and enables us to do so, or not.

Nothing here speaks about "get into bondage and you will gain a favour" - that would be an error in understanding resulting from a 'legalistic marriage' where you don't actually care about your partner. You just said "I will" once because you heard about the benefits of heaven. But are still unvonverted in regard to love.

Phillip:

Paul in Hebrews 8 gives commentary on this verse and says that it speaks of those who live under the new covenant. I think we could say that when those of Israel who turn to Christ as Messiah and are born again will also experience what I have experienced under the new covenant that this scripture also applies to them, but I think Paul spells it out pretty clearly here.

Travis, is not national Israel the same today, not believing in Christ. The new covenant written in their hearts has not come yet, written written in their hearts, not attained by the Living Word Himself being born again in the believer. Individual Jews can be in the same body of Christ that the Church is, that is all believers. These Jews do not need the word written in their hearts, Christ the Living Word is now their life and spirit like ours.

This is a little long, but it explains it better or should I say easier than me doing it, it is the way I believe Heb 8 shows the word written in the Heart is for Israel and not the Body of Christ the Church.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hebrews 8:1

CHAPTER 8

1. Christ, the High Priest (8:1-6)
2. The old covenant and the new (8:7-13)
Verses 1-6. The new priesthood which the better priest exerciseth in heaven furthermore implies also a change in the sacrifices and in the covenant. This is now more fully developed in the last three chapters of this section. There is first of all a summary. The priest we have is not ministering on earth but "we have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man." Every high priest had to offer gifts and sacrifices, so it was of necessity that He also should have something to offer. What He has offered is brought out in the ninth and tenth chapters. As high priest He offered up Himself on the cross and then, as the high priest who had brought this perfect offering, He passed through the heavens and into heaven itself. If He were upon the earth and His priesthood went no further than the earth, He would not be a priest. He has no place among the Levitical priests, the priests who offered according to the law, whose office and ministrations were but shadows of heavenly things; but He hath obtained a more excellent ministry, because He is the mediator of a better covenant, which has for a foundation better promises.

As Christ came not from Aaron's family He could not be a priest after that pattern; His priesthood is wholly different, for it is heavenly and exercised in glory. With this more excellent priesthood, foreshadowed in the earthly Levitical priesthood, the latter has been completely set aside. This is the truth these Hebrew believers needed more fully to lay hold on, because the earthly tabernacle was still standing and the earthly priests were still exercising their empty and meaningless functions. And that which is put away, which is gone, because the one great offering was brought, and the true high priest has entered into the holiest and is in the presence of God for His people, Satan has successfully introduced and established upon Christian ground as one of the most soul-destroying inventions. Ritualistic Christendom with a priesthood patterned after the extinct Jewish priesthood, with a worship more or less after the model of Israel's worship, is the shade of the departed shadow. It is apostasy from the truth of the gospel of grace; it is a wicked denial of the gospel of our salvation. This priestly assumption of men is the worst possible corruption of the doctrine of Christ.

Verses 7-13. The preceding verse showed that Christ is the mediator of a better covenant. This leads next to a contrast between the first (the old) and the new covenant. A covenant contains the necessary principles established by God under which man may live with God, in which He deals with man. There are only two covenants. The old covenant which was established at Sinai, the law-covenant, and the new covenant which in its fullest meaning has not yet been ratified, for it also relates to the people of Israel as we shall soon learn from this chapter. Strictly speaking the gospel, the proclamation of the salvation of God, is not a covenant. Still those who accept the gospel possess all the spiritual blessings of this new covenant, and much more than Israel can ever possess, when at last as a converted nation this new covenant will be established with them.

The argument is simple. The fact that a new covenant is promised shows that the old covenant was insufficient. "For if that first one had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for the second." It could not accomplish what was in God's heart to bring His people into the closest and nearest relationship with Himself. The first covenant, the law, could not do this, and therefore "finding fault, He saith unto them, Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not regard them, saith the Lord."

This first covenant was conditional, and the people did not keep this covenant and the Lord, because they were disobedient, did not regard them. That first covenant was unto their condemnation. And therefore the Lord had announced through the prophet Jeremiah that a new covenant was to be consummated for Israel and Judah, the same people with whom the first covenant was made. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their mind, and with them in their hearts; and I will be God unto them, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for all shall know me of the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins, and their iniquities I will remember no more" (Jer 31:31-34). This new covenant is unlike the old one in that it has no condition attached to it. In it the Lord speaks alone in words of sovereign grace--"I will." It is the same what Jehovah promised to the nation through the prophet Ezekiel (chapter 36). And this grace covenant awaits its fulfillment for that nation in coming days.

The ground of this new covenant is the sacrificial death of Christ, His blood, as we learn from His own words when He instituted His supper. Because He died for that nation (Joh 6:51-52) all Israel--the house of Israel and the house of Judah--will be brought into the promised blessings through this grace covenant. In the meantime, while Israel has not yet entered into this new covenant, Gentiles, who are by nature aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise (no new covenant being promised to Gentiles), believing in Christ, are made nigh by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:12-13), enjoy every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ, become members of the body of Christ and joint heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 28:27-28 For the heart of this people (Israel) is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Ro 11:25) then God will turn in mercy to His people Israel, whom He hath not cast away, and this new covenant will be fully established and all the promises as to restoration, temporal blessings, as well, spiritual blessings, so richly promised throughout the Old Testament prophetic word, will through grace come upon them. Then their sins and iniquities will be remembered no more. It all comes to pass when He comes again, who alone can turn away ungodliness from Jacob. What light and joy these facts of the old covenant set aside and the promises of the new covenant must have brought to the hearts of these Hebrew believers who read first this great message.

("Modern Judaism [both rabbinical and rationalistic] is not able to account for the cessation of sacrifices and the Levitical dispensation. The former acknowledges that in the destruction of the temple and the present condition of Israel without high priest and offerings, divine judgment on the nation's sin is expressed: the idea of atonement through a vicarious sacrifice is not quite extinct, as appears in the rite of the cock performed on the eve of the day of atonement, though devoid of all Scriptural authority. Rationalistic Judaism has departed still further from the truth. Rejecting the idea of substitution and expiation in connection with sacrifices, it regards the present condition of Israel as a more spiritual development, misinterpreting the protests of David and the prophets against a mere external view of the ceremonial law (Ps 40:7; Ho 6:6; Jer 7:21-23). The old has indeed vanished; but according to the will of God, because the true light now shineth, because the substance has come in Christ" A. Saphir.)

In Christ: Phillip.

I agree with kwanemenat and A-Servant posts directly above.

It would be wrong to take God's Commandments of the New Covenant out of the picture. These are the New Laws, The Laws of Jesus Christ. As Hebrews clearly point out, where there is a change of Covenants, from The Mosaic Covenant to The Covenant we have in Jesus Christ, there is a change of Law.

Okay, perhaps Kwanemenat and A-Servant meant the Mosaic Laws, I'm not sure, but if so, it is wrong thinking.

By the former we are saved by works and please God by our works as given by the letter of the Mosaic Laws. By the Laws of Christ we are saved by faith and please God by our faith. We enter into the promised Land by Faith.

For we have left the Laws of Mosaic Covenant, and entered into a New Covenant in Jesus Christ. As Christians we have set aside the former Law so we can be saved by the laws of the New Covenant in God through Jesus. And we now live by the three Laws of Jesus Christ.

LAW 1: The Royal Law of Love: Mt 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' NASU

Law 2: The Law of Liberty: Lk 6:36-38: Jesus speaking: "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return." NASU

LAW 3: The Law of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.
Ro 8:1-11
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. FOR WHAT THE [Mosaic] Law COULD NOT DO, WEAK AS IT WAS THROUGH THE FLESH, GOD DID: SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND AS AN OFFERING OF SINFUL FLESH AND AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN, HE CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH, SO THAT THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NASU

Try hard to understand what this 3rd Law of Jesus Christ actually means, do not read your preconceptions into it, it means exactly what it says. Jesus did it all for us on the Cross, His atoning blood, one sacrifice for all time, has washed away all our sins for all time, we who accept His blood as atonement for all of our sins for all time. And by this faith we Christians received the Holy Spirit, God in us who will work God's good will in us until the Day of Christ. Stop looking to Moses for help.

What if, What if , What if, stop with the 'What if's', believe God and walk by faith, not by sight. It is not up to you to "DO IT", you are not in this alone, the HELPER which is in you will transform you. God will not fail you, you who have placed your trust in Jesus and His atoning blood. Be aware that the Holy Spirit of God dwells in you, be aware of the changes He is making in you, and actuate these changes God is making in you. God gives the sword, the shield, the helmet, but you must practice using them that your skills with them grows and bear fruit. Replace these with the fruits of the Spirit, and you will perceive what God is doing in you in bringing you to be the mature fruitful spirit He wants us to be, and spirit is what we are.

We were not put here to be God's police to stop other people we deem sinners and to punish them for their sins. If we do, we may well get tangled in sin ourselves. But we can share the good news of Jesus Christ (If we truly know it), and it sure ain't promoting the Mosaic laws which cause sin to increase. We are meant to walk with God and fellowship with God and encourage one another and others to that they may be saved through finished work of Jesus on the cross, so that they become filled with the Holy Spirit by whom their very nature will be truly transformed to do the good we all are meant to do.

Phillip, Your post above "Christinyou" referencing Gaebelein's Annotated Bible Hebrews 8:1 was rather good, I enjoyed reading it.

Phillip:

It is interesting to me how no topic of scripture leaves another totally untouched. Heb. 8 and our discussion now enter the eschatalogical realm to a certain degree. I can only give you my opinion.

I don't believe that there is a special event in which "national" Israel turns to Christ. I do not know as much about eschatology as some might, but I think this is where I would differ from some pure dispensationalists. I do believe that in the hearts and minds of the Jewish people as a whole there is a blindness or a veil at the reading of the law even to today. I do believe there is coming a day when the blinders are removed and a great number of Jews turn to Christ as Messiah. In this event they will leave the old covenant and enter into the new. However we as believers comprised of both gentiles and Jews (There are a great number of Jewish believers) do now walk in the new covenant. The natural branch was severed and we were grafted in. Paul speaks of the fact that not all that are physical or national Jews are of Israel and many that are not physical Jews are counted as Israel through faith. There is coming a day when the natural branch will also once again be grafted in in a wholesale way. But I don't think Heb. 8 describes a yet to come event that will happen to one people with a national identity but rather an ongoing reality into which a wholesale number of Jews will one day also enter in. So as I see scripture the laws of God are now written on our hearts. I think the commentary of Heb. 9 and 10 would fix the fact that we are now under the new covenant of which the prophecy in Jeremiah and the commentary in Heb. 8 speak.

If I have misunderstood what you have said forgive me.

Blessings to you brother!

Twayneb, I read your post and I agree with your view.

I believe the model for the Jews coming to Jesus in the near future is found in the OT when Joseph, the favored son, shared his dream with his brothers of them bowing down to him. They brothers were already jealous of Joseph, being favored by his father, and his special coat, and now they wanted to kill him.

The opportunity arrived, and they lowered Joseph into a pit, only to be raised from the pit to be sold to the gentile merchants. To the Jewish people, both ancient and today, the lowering of Joseph into the pit represents death, the raising of Joseph from the pit is resurrection.

Joseph went on to become the leader of the gentiles. Then Joseph had the dream of the coming great SEVEN YEAR FAMINE. What follows is that Joseph saves the people of the world, the gentiles first, then last he saves his own family, the Sons of Jacob, and their families, and their father Jacob too. All Israel is saved last. But note that Joseph brothers, discovering their brother LIVES, they were afraid of Joseph, that he might seek revenge for what they did to Him. But Joseph was truly forgiving and loved His brothers.

And I believe that this foreshadows how it will be when the Jews learn that Jesus is indeed the Messiah they have been waiting for all these centuries. But in short time they will see it is all good, and rejoice.

My speculation, of course.

ArtB

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father which is in heaven ? How can we know HIS will, where did He give us His will so we cannot possibly miss it? What are His commandments? Jesus answered:

Luke 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:

Matthew 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace.

Let's hear what some of the "older brothers" have to say to that:

Holiness by J. C. Ryle

Genuine sanctification will show itself in habitual respect to God’s law and habitual effort to live in obedience to it as the rule of life. There is no greater mistake than to suppose that a Christian has nothing to do with the law and the Ten Commandments because he cannot be justified by keeping them. The same Holy Spirit who convinces the believer of sin by the law and leads him to Christ for justification will always lead him to a spiritual use of the law, as a friendly guide, in the pursuit of sanctification. Our Lord Jesus Christ never made light of the Ten Commandments; on the contrary, in His first public discourse, the sermon on the mount, He expounded them and showed the searching nature of their requirements. St. Paul never made light of the law; on the contrary, he says, "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully." "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (1 Tim. 1:8; Rom. 7:22). He who pretends to be a saint, while he sneers at the Ten Commandments and thinks nothing of lying, hypocrisy, swindling, ill temper, slander, drunkenness and breach of the seventh commandment, is under a fearful delusion. He will find it hard to prove that he is a "saint" in the last day!

The Two Covenants and the Second Blessing
by Andrew Murray

"Through the whole of the Old Covenant there was always one trouble: man's heart was not right with God. In the New Covenant the evil is to be remedied. Its central promise is a heart delighting in God's law and capable of knowing and holding fellowship with Him. Let us mark the fourfold blessing spoken of."

1. " I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." Let us understand this well. In our inward parts, or in our heart, there are no separate chambers in which the law can be put, while the rest of the heart can be given up to other things; the heart is a unity. Nor are the inward parts and the heart like a house, which can be filled with things of an entirely different nature from what the walls are made of, without any living organic connection No; the inward parts, the heart, are the disposition, the love, the will, the life. Nothing can be put into the heart, and especially by God, without entering and taking possession of it, without securing its affection and controlling its whole being. And this is what God undertakes to do in the power of His divine life and operation, to breathe the very spirit of His law into and through the whole inward being. "I will put it into their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." At Sinai the tables of the Covenant, with the law written on them, were of stone, as a lasting substance. It is easy to know what that means. The stone was wholly set apart for this one thing-to carry and show this Divine writing. The writing and the stone were inseparably connected. And so the heart in which God gets His way, and writes His law in power, lives only and wholly to carry that writing, and is unchangeably identified with it. So alone can God realize His purpose in creation, and have His child of one mind and one spirit with Himself, delighting in doing His will. When the Old Covenant with the law graven on stone had done its work in the discovering and condemning of sin, the New Covenant would give in its stead the life of obedience and true holiness of heart. The whole of the Covenant blessing centers in this---the heart being put right and fitted to know God: "I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart " (Jer. xxiv. 7).

Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:...So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace.

From Andrew Murray above

When the Old Covenant with the law graven on stone had done its work in the discovering and condemning of sin, the New Covenant would give in its stead the life of obedience and true holiness of heart. The whole of the Covenant blessing centers in this---the heart being put right and fitted to know God: "I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart " (Jer. xxiv. 7).

a-servant: I do not believe that the standard of holiness that lies behind the commandments has been negated or invalidated. I don't think that anyone would make that claim. No one is saying that because we are not under the law we are free to sin. Romans 6 begins with just that question. Paul had made the case that we were not undedr the law anymore that he answered the obvious misunderstanding. What then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

But we must realize, as did Andrew Murray in the quote posted, that the law was only a veiled representation of God's holiness. All too often we relate to God in a legalistic way. I have done this all too often and sometimes struggle with it even now. We look to our own ability to "live holy" or to "keep the law" as a basis for the things that God does in our lives. This is the bondage that Paul speaks of in Gal. 5:1.

I am now totally and completely free from the law. I am free from the ten commandments and from the remainder of the law. The bondage I am free from is the bondage of condemnation. When I was in my flesh I was condemned by the law. The picture or representation of God's holy standard condemned me and slew me. I found out I was dead to sin when I was compared to a standard that I had no hopes of keeping in my flesh. Oh what bondage it is to try in my own power to keep God's laws. It is failure.

But being freed from the law is NOT license to sin nor is it implied that we would or should live lives that are not exemplified by holiness. We find in Titus that it is the grace of God that teaches us to live righteously and soberly, not the laws of God. When His holiness is written on my heart I will walk in holiness as I follow Him. You see, God's standard has never been, "do not commit murder." His standard is that we are full of the love of God through Christ in us and that we live out that love toward enemies as well as friends. He lives through us and by default we will not murder. The commandment was only a shadow of what the true nature of God really is.

So it is not that we now have new laws, expanded laws, or better laws. IT is that we are now filled with the Holy Spirit and the life that we live is the outflow of God in us which results in a truly holy life.

by a-servant on 2011/8/28 1:59:33

"Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father which is in heaven ? How can we know HIS will, where did He give us His will so we cannot possibly miss it? What are His commandments? Jesus answered:

Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Did He negate or invalidate these?

No, He expanded on their true intend, their spiritual dimension, as for example here:

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the commandments are now on a spiritual level and reach far deeper. The judgment of Jesus is far stricter than under the old covenant, why? Because now we have a provision and are not under dominion of sin. What doesn' negate the free will decision to choose to sin, despite the fact we don't have to, and so reject His grace."

I already explained in my posts why your expressed view above is wrong.

You did not address any of my comments at all.

God's Truth does not depend on what some people think it is, His truth is written down and in context. As far as I'm concerned, you have not demonstrated by your post that we are still under the Mosaic Laws.

Here is some food for thought.

Did Jesus ever teach the New Covenant prior His Crucifixion?

Did Jesus fulfill the Mosaic Covenant by keeping all the Mosaic Laws until His death, and teaching His fellow Jews to do the same?

Did Jesus ever preach the Mosaic Covenant to the gentiles prior to His crucifixion?

When Jesus died on the cross, did God annihilate the Mosaic Covenant?

If you answer yes to any of these question, please provide scriptural evidence that proves your 'yes'.

In posting Matthew 5:27, you took it completely out of context. Jesus was teaching His fellow Jews to keep the Mosaic Covenant, as any good Rabbi would do.

And my final question:

When Jesus died on the cross, did God annihilate the Mosaic Covenant?

Ah, a Jesus with multiple solutions, the one that teaches specific items exclusively to Jews. Interesting, but I do not agree with such a segmentation.. The real Jesus has only 1 group of followers, not multiple or even just two.

But I do agree with his understanding:

The Great Gospel Deception by David Servant

https://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/false_grace_gospel

His definition of 'Christians are not "under the law of Moses," but they are definitely "under the law of Christ.' is biblical correct. Also his understanding of sin, holiness and obedience is better than a billboard that suggests that holiness and sin live in harmony together like yin and yang, you might want to read the whole thing.

David Servant is very misguided in his views of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He wrongly believes that when Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount, that He was addressing it to Christians.

There were no Christians in the world when Jesus gave that message. Jesus specifically addressed to His fellow Jews, and Jesus and them were bound to the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus purpose in giving the Sermon on the Mount was to teach His fellow Jews the best attitude and approach for keeping the Mosaic Covenant, The Torah. Jesus, as Israel's true Chief Rabbi, gave the best Sermon ever on the right attitude and heart needed to keep all 613 of the Mosaic Laws. Still, none but Jesus kept the entire Mosaic Covenant with all its' Laws.

For instance, Jesus taught His fellow Jews: Love your God, with all your Might, Mind, and Soul; and your neighbor as yourself, If you hate your brother (fellow Jewish men) in your heart, you are already guilty of murder. And this because hatred is a seed that grows into murder.

There is much to learn about the trappings of sin in the Sermon on the Mount, and we Christians are inspired by Jesus words in His Sermon on the Mount. But it is not the Gospel of Jesus. The Gospel (Good News) of Jesus is that we who accept the Atoning Blood of Jesus as washing away all our sins for all time, these shall also receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in us, through Whom we will be perfected by God to do the good He created us to do, that no man can boast in his own achievements. Salvation is truly a gift in God and the indwelling Holy Spirit changes our very nature as we walk with God and we talk with God. We are not saved by an act of our will, but by the Faith of Jesus we are saved.

It is important to know that if Jesus ever preached the Gospel prior to His death, then He would have sinned by breaking the Mosaic Covenant. He can not be keeping the Mosaic Covenant if He is teaching another Covenant, another Law. The Jews accused Jesus of doing this, and Jesus explained that was not true. It was only upon His Resurrection that Jesus plainly explained to His disciples the New Covenant. Before His Resurrection he only hinted that a New Covenant was coming.

And where there is a change of Covenant with God there comes a change of Law.

As for David Servant's book, I believe he does great harm to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Take his worse case In Paul's letter to Corinthians, the young man who is having sex with his mother, a very awful sin. Paul wants him handed over to Satan. Why? So this young man will become saved. The worst sinner in the Corinthian Church will be saved. Christians do not lose their salvation, ever. For God will accomplish His will and purpose for all who have put themselves under the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus. No Christian earns their salvation by their good deeds and accomplishments.

And anyone claims that I'm saying that we are free to commit any and all sins to our heart and flesh's content, is just plain stupid. It's like saying, now that I am saved, I could get a gun and shoot off my knee caps because no matter what happens, I am saved. All sins have one thing in common, they bring forth needless pain and suffering. If we love others as we love ourselves, we would treat them in the ways we ourselves truly wish to be treated. By what measure we measure others, so shall we be measured. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement.

Art, are you saying that Jesus Christ born again in us is our new nature, which without we are none of His and the Holy Spirit is the revealer of that new nature as we are in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Quote: """Salvation is truly a gift in God and the indwelling Holy Spirit changes our very nature as we walk with God and we talk with God. We are not saved by an act of our will, but by the Faith of Jesus we are saved."""

Gal 2: 20

I agree with your post in the truth of the scriptures.

In Christ: Phillip

When you have a pre-text of a 'historical Jesus' you will miss the real Jesus that says " He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

and cannot keep His sayings because you thought they are not addressed to you. Your Bible just got reduced to a history book.

The problem is when you view the Sermon on the Mount in historical context only, you get a historical understanding of the gospel. You misinterpret Jesus and the spirit of prophecy that is always relevant for all that have ears. Once you have 'selective ears' what you get in this particular case results in Antinomian doctrines resembling another gospel.

And just to be fully clear about that, antinomian heresy is not Christianity, and never will be.

In that context The Great Gospel Deception by David Servant should be required reading, because so many professing Christians never heard the true Gospel.

What is the final Gospel given to Paul?

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Php 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What is this dispensation of the Gospel Paul says is "My Gospel", what is this mystery? What glorious Gospel was committed to Pauls trust? How are the secrets of Men going to be judged? "My Gospel"

Even the fulfillment of the Word of God. To God the only wise One.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

The Mystery; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the mystery, Pauls "MY Gospel" by which we will be judged.

The way and the workings of "My Gospel"

Galatians 1:6-12 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Any other Gospel except the Mystery of Christ birthed in the believer making us new creatures in Christ and son's of God, the preacher of any other gospel is cursed.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is where we stand in Christ, by the Father who has birthed us in Christ, even before the foundation of the world. God chose all those who believe to be in Christ.
Eph 1: 4

This is our rejoicing, even if we suffer and fill up that which is behind of the affliction of Christ in our flesh for His body the Church's sake.

Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Final Gospel, the mystery, "My Gospel", Paul warning every man and teaching us in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect """"IN CHRIST"""".

Christ in us is the Gospel given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself.

Phillip

by a-servant on 2011/9/4 18:49:46

"And just to be fully clear about that, antinomian heresy is not Christianity, and never will be."

I agree.

For you to address this to me tells me you do not properly read, or do not understand, what I have written.

I am not Lawless, I live under the Laws of Jesus Christ, given in the New Covenant.

The Law of Liberty.

The Royal Law of Love.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ.

These are the Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. I explained my understanding of these laws in an earlier post in this thread.

Apparently, you have placed yourself under the Mosaic laws of the Old Covenant.

As you can plainly see, I am not antimonian (i.e. Lawless), I am under the Laws of Jesus Christ.

And I remind you that the NT Book of Hebrews states that Jesus is not a High Priest according to Levi, but rather, Jesus is High Priest according to the everlasting priesthood of Melchizedek, a far superior Priesthood and Law than the Leviticus priesthood and Laws. And that were there is a change of Priesthood there is a change of Law.

Hebrews clearly states this:

Heb 7:11-22
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 FOR WHEN THE PRIESTHOOD IS CHANGED, OF NECESSITY THERE TAKES PLACE A CHANGE OF LAW. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

Read verses 18, and 19 above carefully.

I suggest you rethink what Covenant and Law you are under.

And the above post by Christinyou points in the right direction.

Well great, now you just have to define these expressions you affirm yourself with like "law of liberty".

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:11

Jas 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. (10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I think it is important that we look at the entirety of context of these verses. James is speaking about having respect of persons. Specifically he is speaking about respecting the well-off and despising the poor. The entirety of James 2 deals with this subject. Although there are lessons we can pull out, we must be careful not to overstep context.

First he says that if you fulfill the royal law. This means the chief or preeminent law. That law is that a man should love the Lord God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. Remember Jesus said all the law is fulfilled in this. But, James says, if you think you are fulfilling that law and have respect of persons then you are judged as a sinner by the law. He points out that to keep all of the law and yet offend in one point, namely respect of persons, you are made a transgressor of the same order as if you had broken the whole law. However there is a chief or preeminent law, the law of liberty. Reference the teachings of Paul and you find the law of liberty is the freedom from the bondage of the old covenant and its laws. So we should speak and do as those who will be judged by that law of liberty.

The law of liberty is not as the old covenant. It is not contained in carnal ordinances but rather is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. We now live governed by the Holy Spirit. There is no respect of persons in the Holy Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit and allowing Him to live out through us we will not respect persons.

Later James deals with faith and works. Again we need to put this into context. You say you have faith but have respect of persons and court the rich and famous and ignore the poor. What good then is your faith? Is it genuine? If it were would you not find yourself being compelled by the Holy Spirit to love the poor and to esteem them on the same level as the rich? Would this not be demonstrated in your works? If so then to declare faith and not have accompanying works shows that your faith is dead.

So James is not making a case for any kind of NT law or list of statutes under which a Christian should operate. He is simply saying that those who have respect of personsl are not operating in the Spirit. There is a disconnect between what they profess and what is evident in their actions, and the actions are telling the story as it really is.

But,
Are we not resurreced from the dead,to serve the LIVING God?

We were once dead in our sins.

The Word says:The gospel, that Jesus preached was `The gospel of the Kingdom'
Paul said many times, he preached`Jesus' gospel or `the gospel of God'
Paul continued to preach the gospel of the kingdom and the princables of that kingdom.

Isn't The kingdom a place where the King rules..is Lord.
Doesn't He come in ,by way of the Holy Spirit to lead us?
Paul said: `For as many as are Led by the Spirit of God, They are the children/sons of God'

Lovingly in Him,
Elizabeth

True freedom is walking in the Spirit, and to be led by the Spirit of God is not in contrast to walking in the law of liberty. The second is integral to the first.

How do you know if you're not walking in the Spirit? When you sin, or break the Royal Law. When you mistakenly think you are walking in the spirit while you keep sinning, you're walking in a counterfeit spirit. Here a look at the Holy standard of God as expressed in His commandments can bring you back to Jesus, if you repent, not otherwise. In that other case you stay carnal and will fight God's law by denying the standard and validity of His law, as Paul says you cannot be subject to the law of God::

Romans 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

If someone thinks the law of God is an enemy of the Gospel, they don't understand yet how that rlationship is to be really understood. You might find these two articles here helpful:

A BRIEF STUDY ON "THE LAW OF LIBERTY" IN THE EPISTLE OF JAMES.
http://www.revealed.org/liberty.htm

Under The Law
http://obeyingthetruth.com/articles/under_the_laws.html

Romans 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

mentioned only once, so there is no other holy law or standard. Which law is holy according to Paul? Hint: related to "commandment"

What is a better question maybe is which of the multiple mentioned laws is more powerful to bring us to God's ultimate standard

Romans 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

here two laws are in contrast, the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus is more powerful than the law of sin and death

the law of sin and death is NOT 'The law of God' by the way, it simply means "the soul that sins shall die"

therefore Paul can say without contradicting himself:

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Simply because he talks here not about the law of sin and death. James calls the law of God by two other names as mentioned before, and so directly references Jesus' teaching in Matthew regarding the practical meaning of what Paul's statement of 'the law is spiritual' means in Rom 7:14.

God's law is spiritual, and is holy because it reflects the standards of the law giver, a Holy God.

Therefore Jesus the spiritual law giver says this in John's vision at the very end of Revelation 22:14 in a validating way, and I have faith to believe the one that will be the judge over all to set the final standard:  "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Not so A-Servant.

You based your argument by posting two versus completely out of context, then you added your own false meaning to the two sentences you divorced from their context in Paul's letter.

Furthermore you ignore Paul's other writings, as well as John's letters. Paul clearly argues that the Mosaic Law was good, but we in the flesh could never keep all the requirements of the Mosaic Law, because our fleshly nature. He gave the example of coveting, that the Mosaic Law to not covet is a good Law, but due to the weakness of our fleshly nature, The Mosaic Law against Coveting actually causes us to Covet all the more.

Ro 8:1-11
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Why?

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

The Spirit of Life is the Holy Spirit that dwells in all who accept the Blood of Jesus Christ as taking away all their sins for all time. This is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The Mosaic Covenant was satisfied by the Life of Jesus who kept the entire Mosaic Law on our behalf, whereby God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant

Zec 11:8-13
Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9. Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. NASU

There was only one Bilateral Covenant God made with the peoples, it is the Mosaic Covenant. All others were unilateral.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NASU

Christians have God dwelling in us via the Holy Spirit. We walk with God by faith, knowing that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit in us, thus we have the ever presence of God in us by whom we fellowship daily with God, Whom also transforms our very nature as we walk with Him in our daily fellowship with Him. I have no need for the Mosaic laws because God dwells in me, making changes in me, which I perceive and actuate that I may grow spiritually.

1 Co 2:10-16

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. NASU

Now Paul does warn us against being immoral, but he does not appeal to the Mosaic Laws at all, but to the New Covenant whereby Jesus has saved us.

1 Co 6:12-20
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. NASU

"ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL FOR ME, BUT NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE."

And Paul goes on to argue why we should not join ourselves sexually to a prostitute. Paul does not argue from the Mosaic Law, but from the New Covenant, whereby we have a very personal relationship with God.

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.

It is lawful for me to go to a prostitute, but if I am truly honest with myself, I ought to perceive that my sex with the prostitute is very shallow, she has no real feelings for me, she is doing it for money, and she most likely is a slave to a pimp, and likely addicted to drugs, and may even have a communicable disease.

In addition I have the Holy Spirit dwelling me. Thus I have a very good personal relationship with God via the indwelling Holy Spirit, He loves me and I Him. So it is not profitable for me to go to a prostitute. Profitable would be leading the prostitute out of prostitution and to salvation via the gospel of Jesus Christ, that would be a true act of love with her best interest in mind.

But under the Mosaic Covenant, I am allowed to have several wives, and even if I have a wife, I may also have sex with my female slaves if I so desire, even if her parents are my slaves too, and being slaves they have no say in the matter.

But I am not under the Mosaic Laws, of which I am very glad. And I am very happy to find myself under the New Covenant whereby I have an actual real personal relationship with God. And He walks with me, and He talks with me, and He tells me that I am His own. And the joy we share, as we tarry there, none has never known

You didn't actually really understand what I was talking about. But you also don't believe Jesus in Matt 5. Neither in James and the "law of liberty" that confirms Jesus. Neither in Paul when he talks about something you cannot understand. That's why you got stuck on your idea this is all about the Mosaic Law. Or the freedom to go to prostitutes. Yikes. No thanks.

by a-servant on 2011/9/9 7:25:38

"You didn't actually really understand what I was talking about. But you also don't believe Jesus in Matt 5. Neither in James and the "law of liberty" that confirms Jesus. Neither in Paul when he talks about something you cannot understand. That's why you got stuck on your idea this is all about the Mosaic Law. Or the freedom to go to prostitutes. Yikes. No thanks."

Jesus in Matt 5 & 6 & 7, was preaching solely to His fellow Jews, people of the Mosaic Covenant, encouraging them to keep the Mosaic Laws, just as He was keeping the mosaic Laws. There were no Christians when Jesus preached.

The New Covenant was established only after God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant, and this is a fact that you seemingly do not care to believe, even though this was predicted in the OT. You have a habit of taking scriptures out of context to suit your personal beliefs.

You never respond to what I actually write. For instance, Paul's Book of Hebrews where Paul states the fact that Jesus is not of the Priesthood of Levi, whom were the priests who oversaw the teaching and the keeping of the Mosaic Laws by God's people, the Jews. But that Jesus is of a much higher Priesthood, the everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. The book of Hebrews clearly states that where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a Change of Law. This change of law is everything to the Christian of the New Covenant. Paul also adds that the Mosaic law is was worthless and useless in that it could not save anyone.

Jesus is not our cheerleader, cheering for us to keep the Mosaic Laws. Rather, He presides over a far more superior Covenant, which we call the New Covenant.

In Galatians, Paul gives a stinging indictment of self style Christians who put themselves under the the Mosaic Laws, and insist others to follow their error.

Gal 3:1-14
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so AbrahamBELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NASU

Next, Paul explains why the Mosaic Law was given.

Gal 3:15-29
Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

{NOTE EDIT: SOME BIBLES, INCLUDING THE NASU, TRANSLATE THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS", AS "FAITH IN JESUS", THAT IS A MISTRANSLATION. THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS" CAN ONLY BE TRANSLATED "FAITH OF JESUS". IN ORDER TO WRITE 'FAITH IN JESUS' IN GREEK REQUIRES "EIS" OR "EIN", BOTH WHICH MEANS "IN". ABSENT 'EIS' OR 'EIN' THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS" MEANS THE FAITH BELONGS TO JESUS, AND NOT THE CHRISTIAN. Of course, we Christians have faith in Jesus finished work on the cross by WHOM we have been saved by the Faith of Jesus. A true gift from God to all who believe and accept the gift Jesus has accomplished for us. If we had to perform works of the LAW to be saved, then it is not a gift.]

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the [Mosaic]law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith OF Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. NASU

Paul now gives a stinging indictment of the Mosaic Law, clearly indicating that we Christians are not under the Mosaic Law (i.e. The Bond Woman), but under the New Covenant (i.e. The Free Woman), :

Gal 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under law [that is you, A-Servant], do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written,

"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say?

"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. NASU

Gal 5:1-12

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. NASU

Gal 5:13-15
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. NASU

Thus the whole Mosaic Law is replaced by this one Law of Christ, which Jesus also gave to His fellow Jews in His Sermon on the Mount: "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." And Jesus told us how to identify that neighbor in His example of the Good Samaritan, and He wants us to be that Good Samaritan.

The Mosaic Law forbade eating meat sacrificed to an Idol. But as Christians, we may eat meat sacrificed to an Idol, as long as we are not the ones doing the sacrifice, for that would be Idol worship. But as for the meat, it is just cooked meat and there is nothing wrong with eating it. Such meat was sold in the market place after being sacrificed to an Idol. But Paul adds, even though we have the liberty to eat that meet under the New Covenant, but Paul adds that if a less mature Christian is offended by any Christian eating meat that had been sacrificed to an Idol, then we should not eat that meat so as not to cause the more immature brother in Christ from stumbling. Thus the Law of liberty places us in a wide open place of making many possible choices, but let us curb our liberty if it causes a less mature member in Christ to stumble. For the law of Love balances the Law of Liberty.

To the other readers of this thread that were wondering where I was going with "the law is holy" here someone that has discovered it also. So I'm not the first that noticed that, although John Wesley admits that "there are few subjects within the whole compass of religion so little understood as this".

He also says "But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with theses light explications of it" mentioning the usual explanations that try to overlook it.

That's true, we should not be non-careful observers, let's take time to see the integrity of ALL scripture to understand what he already understood:

John Wesley : Original, Nature, Property, and Use of Law

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6108

Thanks A-Servant for pointing out the teachings of John Wesley, whose writings I am personally not familiar with.

But what he writes way back then seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts, including my last one above.

Specifically:

"But now we are delivered from the [Mosaic] law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

John Wesley recognizes that the Mosaic Law is dead, including the Moral Law, giving way to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Here is more detail context of the above quote taken from John Wesley per A-Servants quote in his post above:

"2. But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with theses light explications of it. And the more he weighs the words, the more convinced he will be, that St. Paul, by the law mentioned in this chapter, does not mean either the ancient law of Rome, or the ceremonial law of Moses. This will clearly appear to all who attentively consider the tenor of his discourse. He begins the chapter, "Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law,)" to them who have been instructed therein from their youth, "that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (What! the law of Rome only, or the ceremonial law? No, surely; but the moral law.) "For," to give a plain instance, "the woman which hath an husband is bound by the" moral "law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law: so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." From this particular instance the Apostle proceeds to draw that general conclusion:

"Wherefore, my brethren," by a plain parity of reason, "ye also are become dead to the law," the whole Mosaic institution, "by the body of Christ," offered for you, and bringing you under a new dispensation: "That ye should" without any blame "be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead;" and hath thereby given proof of his authority to make the change; "that we should bring forth fruit unto God." And this we can do now, whereas before we could not: "for when we were in the flesh" -- under the power of the flesh, that is, of corrupt nature, which was necessarily the case till we knew the power of Christ's resurrection, "the motions of sins, which were by the law," -- which were shown and inflamed by the Mosaic law, not conquered, "did work in our members," -- broke out various ways, "to bring forth fruit unto death." "But now we are delivered from the law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

John Wesley goes on to point out that the [613] commandments of the Mosaic Law were both moral and ceremonial, of themselves, very good laws and reflective of God's nature, but due to our weak human nature, it was to us, as Paul pointed out, these Laws were worthless and useless in that the Law condemned everyone, no one could be saved by keeping the Mosaic Laws, except God in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, who took on Himself the stripes we deserved, and the punishment and death that was due us.

When Jesus died on the cross, The Veil in the Temple that separated humans from the presence of God, who dwelt in the Holy of Holies, was torn asunder, thereby ending the separation of man from God. For all who choose to become followers of Christ have the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in each of us, working in us to transform our very natures, that we may do the good that God created us to do. We each have a personal relationship with God. And where there is a change of Priesthood and a New Covenant, there is a change of Law. And through these New Laws, God keeps us. The Royal Law of Love, The Law of Liberty, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Chris Jesus.

These Laws puts us in daily fellowship with God, as if we were back in the Garden of Eden, and we talk with God and he hears us, and His Holy Spirit dwelling in us prays for our needs, even ones we do not even know, and our faith is to believe Him and Trust Him in all things, and to love one another, and to be impartial to all.

And upon Jesus death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant with all its' Laws (as prophesied in Zechariah, directly after the Prophecy of the burning and destruction of Herod's Temple.) For the Mosaic Laws could not save anyone.

As for us Christians, we died to the Mosaic laws, that we may enter a New Covenant in Jesus our savior, as Wesley pointed out. A covenant whereby we have a personal relationship with God, WHO transforms our inner nature daily via the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in us, so that we may naturally do the good that God created to us, as we walk with Him with trust and faith. We have fellowship with God, just as if we were back in the Garden of Eden, or perhaps even better.

"seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts"

Hahaha, best joke of the day. No, absolutely not. He can see both sides, you can see only yours.

That's why it best to read the real Wesley, not the critics' understanding of it, or one will miss the key points of this article.

by a-servant on 2011/9/11 0:54:06

"seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts"

Hahaha, best joke of the day. No, absolutely not. He can see both sides, you can see only yours.

That's why it best to read the real Wesley, not the critics' understanding of it, or one will miss the key points of this article."

Yes, I agree with you A-Servant. I am not versed in the views of Wesley. I'd rather simply use the the scriptures in context to guide me into God's plans for our salvation.

I do agree with Wesley that the Mosaic Law died, as God annihilated it per Zechariah chapter 11., and we are no longer wed to to the Mosaic Laws (i.e. Covenant). Thus we are free to embrace the New Covenant of Jesus Christ with it's Laws by which God has chosen those who believe Him. As I've been saying, or rather, scripture states, where there is a change of Priesthood, there is a change of Law. The Mosaic Law has given way to the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant.

And I certainly do not judge your Christianity in anyway A-Servant, that is between you and God. I am simply mystified why you still embrace the Mosaic Covenant, or perhaps am I misunderstanding your point of view, and you are not actually embracing the Mosaic Covenant as the path of a Christian's salvation?

Art, Your posts of late have been right on and questions I have had for 30 years are being answered by the Holy Spirit revealing to the renewing of my mind to the Mind of Christ. It is like a flood, I could see the clouds and knew what was comming but could not quite see the outcome and reason for this flood of revelation answers.

Gods timing is always perfect.

Praise God for His revelation to you.

In Christ: Phillip

I am very glad for you, Phillip. I myself was delighted to learn these things. It reveals How much God loves us, that He chose us, and that He called us to be His children. and being His sheep we recognized His voice. For I could not save myself through my deeds, my works, but I am saved by the works of Jesus on my behalf. A true Gift from God to those us who simply accept this gift.

1 Co 1:18-31

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

" I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
NASU