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Don't critize me.

M
mguldner

I say this with all humility and respect to this wonderful site and its members all of which I love dearly as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know we all go through seasons and we all have stages of growth and change in our walk with Christ. But something that I have seen since day one of joining SI is the critics that at sometimes frequent the forums. I have been one of those critics at times and so again I say this to a call and response to what I believe God is calling me to.

We have all seen threads innocently and sometimes maliciously posted about a ministry or man or the times we live in, these threads quickly spin out of control and become a free for all of words that if the person or ministry it was about would be greatly wounded by such behavior, this has actually happened at least once to my knowledge.

Why are we so quick to critize? The answer is Pride. Pride elevates us just enough to take a potshot at one another or a ministry or even "the times" as we call them. But my question for the critics is What are you going to do about it? See a problem with a ministry? they don't preach the full gospel? Great now what are you going to do about it? Certainly that ministry has a telephone number or an email you could send.

Its much easier to Critize than to do something proaitive about the situation. Post something negative on a forum than to go do something constructive.

I am not saying all critics aren't involved in ministry, but from experience the ones that critized the harshes and most were those that were spectators.

So really What are you doing about it? I know of one thread that very well was innocently posted about the Holiness of the times decreasing, Awesome Are they doing something to counteract said corruption?

This applies to me as well, What am I going to do when I have a complaint or critism? I am going to number one pray about it and number two if it is in my ability to change then change it and number three if not in my ability to change the situation I am going to exhaust every avenue in which I have to see a change.

I don't want to come off as complaining because that's not my aim, my aim however is to see action where action can be taken.

S
sermonindex

To some extent you are correct. To some extent you are incorrect.

In a day when false teaching is rampant, and is pretty much 90% of what is seen on TV or heard on the radio, it is fitting that people "set the trumpet" to the mouth.

The reason for so much falsehood seen today is because no one wants to stick their neck out and call a spade a spade.

We've been brainwashed by Hollywood that Jesus is a hippie from Woodstock who is all about love and non-judgementalism. Funny thing is this is not the Jesus of the Bible. He came for one reason and that was to die for the sins of His people. In the meantime He cleared out the temple twice with a whip and a smidgen of violence.

He spoke sharp words to those who took His law and twisted it. The Apostle Paul had NO gentle words for those who would do the same after Christ went to sit on the throne of Heaven.

Thru His Apostle He commanded us to contend earnestly for the faith...and like all the other commands given to us by Jesus Christ I will attempt to live that out.

The Word is a double edged sword, not a fluffy pillow.

There is an old saying: If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

Many Christians are living that out. In fact, many Christians will find out too late they are not Christians after all.

We need MEN who will take a stand against evil SNAKES like Joel Osteen, Copeland, The Emergent Church, etc. They are a poison and a cancer, and while we fold our hands and smile and say nothing... many are deceived straight into hell... and their blood will be on OUR hands.

Should we check our motives? Absolutely! But we need to get up off our pews and take a stand.

Krispy

M
mguldner

I understand completely what you are saying. My main point being is do half the people that critize on here ever send the Joel Oslteens letters or emails stating why they are wrong rather than simply bash them over an internet forum? That really and honestly is my real concern, other than sounding the trumpet what else can be done and if something can be done why is it or why isn't it? In some cases I feel people are just blowing their own horn to be heard.

S
sermonindex

Mcguldner,

Brother I too repent if my sin of judgement. I started a thread questioning the motives of Gov. Rick Perry and the Response held in Reliant stadium yesterday. I have had to repent of speaking out against the event and throwing stones at Gov.Perry. While never knowing the motives of his heart, that only God knows, he did something about a problem he saw. The problem was the declining righteousness and increasing immorality in the country. He could have belly ached as we all tend to do or be part of a sulution. His solutio was to call a solem assembly. Would that solem assembly meet our idea of pure doctrine? Would it be what we on this forum think a solem assembly should be? Probobly not. But as I posted on another thread who among us are experts on revival or solem assemblies? I am not, personally.

Gov. Perry saw a problem and addressed it. I repent of judging the man. Preliminary reports suggest 45.000 or so people were at the event yesterday. The name of Jesus wasi lifted up. Only time will tell of the prayerful fruit borne from Reliant Stadium.

Brother I agree with your post. Lord willing I am going to be more prayerful and less critical. I believe Jonathan Edwards said we would be more effective if we prayed more and crticised less.

Posted by Blaine Scogin

S
sermonindex

Thank you Krispy for those words of wisdom that can only come from maturity.

I thank any man who believes in protecting the Church, as the Apostles did. I thank GOD that some men are standing up, as you've said and warning, not whining or compromising.

The Joel O's of this world have been warned and critiqued by well respected ministries - yet they continue on stubbornly, playing the wolf in sheep clothing - waiting to devour any vulnerable or scripturally illiterate sheep or potential sheep and That indeed was the work of the Apostles and prophets, all through-out His Word and Church History. If it weren't for men like that, where would we all be right now? Tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine and singing cumbiyah with the one world religion that's almost fully formed and ready to eat up those who don't see your point. Very depressing - but we're cheered now and then, by men who know that it's a man's job [since Adam] to protect His Bride from imposters and hirelings. Thank you.

S
sermonindex

Why are we so quick to critize? The answer is Pride. Pride elevates us just enough to take a potshot at one another or a ministry or even "the times" as we call them. But my question for the critics is What are you going to do about it? See a problem with a ministry? they don't preach the full gospel? Great now what are you going to do about it? Certainly that ministry has a telephone number or an email you could send.

Its much easier to Critize than to do something proaitive about the situation. Post something negative on a forum than to go do something constructive.

I am not saying all critics aren't involved in ministry, but from experience the ones that critized the harshes and most were those that were spectators.

Brother, I believe you are 100% correct. This is a very clear sin you are exposing in our hearts and it is worthy to spend time introspecting our hearts to see if the root of this pride is in us. I know I constantly have this problem and need to come to the Lord weekly to see if there is a critical spirit in me at all. To speak truly prophetically or to make a defence (apologia) for the Church is right and from the Lord. But to be in the flesh and doing the same is usually ending up in a critical and judging attitude that is doing the work of the devil. The devil is the accuser of the brethren.

May we be known by love which covers over a multitude of sins.

S
sermonindex


Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I just pray that we will have Divine Direction and Discernment to judge whether a man's words are birthed of "pride" or "protection" of His Sheep, in Jesus Name, I plead for us His Sheep, in these last days.

2 Timothy ~ written by Paul while waiting to be executed.

M
mguldner

Sis Jesus-is-God,

I too pray the same, and I am not against protecting the church what so ever but I believe there are some ministries that receive critism while never or hardly ever hearing about why or what the critics problem is. Again my concern is does the critic make an effort to change something or inform someone other than an internet forum?

Matthew 18 is pretty clear on what we need to do if we have an ought with our brother whether the person has been warned or not by respected ministries. If its something you have a problem with then its your responsibility to go to that man or woman and seek reconciliation.

M
MyVeryHeart

Deu 9:13 \t \t
Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
Deu 9:14 \t \t
Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
Deu 9:15 \t \t
So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant [were] in my two hands.
Deu 9:16 \t \t
And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, [and] had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
Deu 9:17 \t \t
And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
Deu 9:18 \t \t
And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

I had come under conviction of the Holy Spirit.
I was an Adulterer.
I had played the harlot.
Then I saw the wickedness in me as was horrified.

I had treated God shamefully
I wanted health, prosperity, miracles,
from Him. I wanted
the world, not Him.
I praised Him with my lips,
but my heart was far from him.

I was sick to my stomach
and could not walk straight or stand upright.

I was to attend a popular conference
where healings, and signs and wonders, were expected.

I prayed to God if he wanted me to go to the conference to warn them about the dangers of the teaching,
I had already paid for the ticket.

He said do not go out there.
He said to pray for the people.
He also said that he was going to destroy the leaders
for leading others astray.

God's Wrath is about to be poured out upon the wicked.
It is time to mourn.
It is not the time for laughing.
Jesus Christ is coming back soon.
He is at the very gates.
Repent.

V
Veronica226

mguldner said:

Matthew 18 is pretty clear on what we need to do if we have an ought with our brother whether the person has been warned or not by respected ministries. If its something you have a problem with then its your responsibility to go to that man or woman and seek reconciliation.

Wasn't Jesus talking about Christians in that passage? Seriously, does anyone think that people like Rob Bell and Joel Osteen are Christians? Also, wasn't this passage for people who've sinned against you? Joel Osteen hasn't sinned against anyone here that *I* know of. So this doesn't apply. I would say that 1 Corinthians 5 (specifically verses 11-13) is more applicable.
"But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
Or how about 2 Timothy 3:2-9?
"For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; AVOID such men as these.
6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also."
Or what about Romans 16:17-18?
"Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them. (we can't avoid them if we don't mark them.) 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there has been a lot of criticizing. Instead of just marking and avoiding, we've gone on and on about them. We MUST know who the wolves are. But lets not continually dwell on it and bash them. There's a difference between showing in the Scripture why they are false teachers and then continuing on so it becomes, I don't know, hate mail or something.
I agree with Krispy that we ought to set the trumpet to our mouths. But lets make sure we're showing in Scripture why they are false teachers or false prophets and not just spouting our own opinions.
Perhaps we would think Mr. Washer is "critical" here???
http://youtu.be/iWMrKcFKqzk

M
mguldner

One who sounds the trumpet should have exhausted their means of warning the person they wish to toot the horn about. It would be similar of me hearing something about you and then going publically and calling you a terrible person and apostate. Wouldn't it make sense to first go to you and say hey what's the deal with this? Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.

Mr.Washer isn't my example, but Christ is, and I am sure Paul Washer bases his rebuke on fact and information rather speculation. This is the critism I have problems with, a rebuke must come from Truth, truth of the Word and truth of the situation.

I am uncertain its exactly wise to cast judgment on Joel O or Rob Bell and say they aren't Christians to them they wholeheartedly believe they are. God is their judge in the end not you or I.

V
Veronica226

Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.

I completely agree. I think it's a shame when we don't do research.

I figured that Paul Washer wasn't your example. It just seems that so often on this forum we refuse to take a word of, I don't know, warning or something from someone on here and we will often take one from a preacher we've listened to. I too hope that Mr. Washer bases his rebuke on fact, but are we willing to check that? Probably not, because we're too lazy. I just find it ironic that we so often will say "this many preachers on SI say this guy's bad so he must be!" But if a forum member says it we cry criticism. (I am not saying you are doing this. But it IS something I have observed at times.)

So where does 2 Timothy 3:2-9 and Romans 16:17-18 fit in? Are we supposed to go through Matthew 18 (confront them one on one, then bring in 2 witness, then take it to the church) first and THEN mark and avoid them? I find this topic somewhat conflicting. Because it seems that one deals with someone who says they are a brother differently then how we deal with false teachers and false prophets. I would think this is because teachers have more influence. But I don't know. I am open to instruction on this.

I am uncertain its exactly wise to cast judgment on Joel O or Rob Bell and say they aren't Christians to them they wholeheartedly believe they are. God is their judge in the end not you or I.

Just because someone wholeheartedly believes they are something, doesn't make it true. I may wholeheartedly believe that I am a banana, but that doesn't make it true. And lest we forget, Jesus blatantly told the false teachers of His day (who wholeheartedly believed they were children of God) that they were in fact going to hell. (Matthew 23:14 they shall receive greater damnation, 23:15 they were children of hell, 23:33 "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?") I also recall in another place how He called them the children of the devil.
So if Jesus is our example are we to follow that as well?
Or what about in 2 Timothy 3:2-9 that I quoted? Paul said that teachers who fell into that list were rejected in regard to the faith (verse 8). He just blatantly said they weren't Christians. Should we follow that?

However, it was probably presumptuous of me to say that. So I do truly and honestly ask for your forgiveness. I don't want to be critical, but I also don't want to be a namby pamby when it comes to false teachers. I suppose there is a balance there somewhere. It is just difficult to find. I pray we all can find that balance.

C
carters

mguldner,

I understand what you are saying. I have been delivered from possibly one of the ministries you speak of, so from my perspective I guess it depends on what is really behind some of these possible false teachers etc.

In my case I believe that the one that I was delivered from is operating under another spirit, a demonic one. If that is the case - then I do not think it is wise to go and confront them, or have anything to do with them. 1) Because I have a weakness for this influence and am susceptible to man's persuasion. 2) Because I know the Lord is wanting me to flee from anything to do with that ministry and its teachings, so confronting them wouldn't be fleeing. 3) The spirit is demonic and I know the word of the Lord for me is stay clear away from anything that is demonic and dangerous.

I could aliken it to - if you found yourself in a situation with a very flirty promiscuious man/woman that you found you had a great weakness for. YOu have a history of weakness with attraction to the flesh of this sort. What would you do? I would believe that the best answer would be to flee from this man/woman and not engage them, based on your weakness. (I am not saying that they should not have the gospel presented to them, but rather leave this up to someone who is specifically called to ministering to these people, not those that they have a weakness for them and that spirit).

This is the case with me and countless others who know this ministry is practising and operating in the demonic.

So what I am saying is that it is not a case of reconciliation. In my case I did not have a personal relationship with the ministry I was delivered from. They are global empire and it was through their books/writings/music/teachings etc available for download through their ministry that opened me up to that influence (praise the Lord they never laid hands on me).

Most of the cases are not a disgreement with doctrine or a relationship break down BUT rather exposing us to demonic influences.

I say run, and flee and pray for them on your accord to the Lord.

EDIT - I gather that you are talking about ministries that most likely aren't the ones that I have been delivered from. But just be careful because if you blanket that no-one should critise any teachers then people may not test the really dangerous and demonic ones based on your argument.

Through Him only,
Sherid

S
sermonindex

One who sounds the trumpet should have exhausted their means of warning the person they wish to toot the horn about. It would be similar of me hearing something about you and then going publically and calling you a terrible person and apostate. Wouldn't it make sense to first go to you and say hey what's the deal with this? Many who critize are the ones that don't even do research on the individual other than a incriminating youtube video that very well could be taken out of its original context.

Yes and no. When someone makes a public declaration then they should be challenged publicly. There is no record of Jesus ever going to the pharisees privately, with the exception of Nichodemus who actually came to Jesus, not the other way around. He rebuked them openly and publicly. The same for Paul.

Matthew 18 applies to Christians and how they relate to other Christians in the local assembly. It is not about how little unknown me addresses Joe-Famous-Preacher about his error. I can not have an audience with Joel Osteen. He never sees the mail that comes into his ministry... it is all opened by an outside firm the church has hired. Most of it is thrown out, with the exception of any checks that come in... those are deposited.

If I show up at his office I will quickly be escorted out by security.

MANY leading ministers in America have confronted him over his errors. He HAS been warned. Who has NOT been warned are most Christians sitting in the pew... thus the need to make his error and heresy widely and publicly known.

If we are silent and say nothing to warn others then we are just as guilty as Joel Osteen himself.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Having said that... if someone can not point out erroneous teachings without getting some sort of prideful kick out of it then no, they should not participate in this type of thing. We should always check our motives and make sure we are being spurred on by the Holy Spirit or by fleshly pride and self righteousness.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I believe that there has been a saturation in society, especially among young people, of never challenging anyone on anything. My niece spent two years with us as she went to college and so we had young people coming and going all the time in our house. I had many conversations with these young people, and the one thing that they had in common was that they thought it was shocking if anyone disagreed with anothers opinion and had the audacity to say they were wrong.

I believe that this is a very worldly view and is part of the phyche for the coming one world church. Another good example I believe, is feminism, and how it so saturated society that it influenced many Christian woman.

Think about it, there is coming a time, and I believe sooner rather than later, when Christains will be called to make bold stands that will actually cost them something. This will certainly be a confrontation, a confrontation between darkness and light, and make no mistake, the darkness will release all of its fury when confronted. If you have no stomoch for confrontation now, its hard to see how one will stand when true persecution comes.............brother Frank

S
sermonindex

There is a narrow gate that only the holy may enter into. It is important that that be made clear in your life, and with out Godly discernment, you may find yourself walking in the midst of the wide one, just because many others are mobbing it up around you.

"This will certainly be a confrontation, a confrontation between darkness and light, and make no mistake, the darkness will release all of its fury when confronted. If you have no stomach for confrontation now, its hard to see how one will stand when true persecution comes"......brother Frank....[ amen. ]

Consider the reformation, when the RCC lit up the night skies with our brothers and sisters, burning them alive. These people knew what they believed, it wasn't popular or blessing filled, and they warned many.

Much of what we may think is the gospel is not, but an aberration....and all it takes is a crack in the door for the Devil to storm in like a flood. This is what is happening in much of so-called Christianity today...and those who point that out aren't popular.

Consider all of the prophets through John, Jesus, and all of the Apostles. They weren't called to be popular. They were murdered. Jesus said in Matthew 10:..."You shall be hated by All!."

Base you convictions upon the Word of God, united with that still small voice that bears witness to the Word inside, and never give it up. This is at the heart of faith.


L
Lordoitagain

If our defense of truth is not accompanied by MANY genuine tears flowing from a Christ controlled heart, it may be a good indication that our motivation is the kind that will be condemned by God on the day when our hearts are exposed before all.


Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Luc 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luc 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Charity …. Hopeth all things … I Cor. 13:7.

S
sermonindex

With so much of the teachings and doctrine of some of these men documented in their own books and sermons, how can anyone suggest we NOT speak out? There is no question what these people teach... no mis-quotes... whole sermons are readily available around the world on YouTube (not piece taken out of context as someone suggested).

If someone does not wish to speak up and defend the Truth (as we are all commanded to do), then dont get in the way of those who will.

Krispy

M
mguldner

Its likely I am wrong eh? And I understand and see what you wiser saints are saying in light of the topic. I'm young in age and in the Lord and lack discernment and experience. I have no problem with disagreeing with people I do that daily. But its always my prayer that I remain in a spirit of humility rather a spirit of critism and this is really what I am trying to address.

Thank you for sharing the scriptures they were enlightening to the topic at hand. I appreciate your wisdom on the matter. :)

S
sermonindex

I've noticed a very steady moving away from making His Word in it's entirety our Only source of how the Church is to operate.
Just studying Paul's life in Acts and through his Epistles alone should show how he dealt with false gospels and heretics. Pulling a verse here and there is not how Paul wrote his letters.
How did he deal with those who spread false beliefs and false gospels in the Church?
We've departed from The Word so badly, things are getting almost unrecognizable - not being the Scriptural Church anymore.
What a slippery slope it's turned out to be.
Thank GOD for the few men that are ready, willing and able to protect any new converts that they can or the Biblically illiterate from heresies.
The Christians in Africa are suffering because of these American hirelings ... just for some.
We need to return to Sola Scriptura to prevent any further apostasy. It's as simple as that.
Thank you Brothers.

M
mguldner

I definitely agree with this, I did a study in the Corinthians and Paul is talking about the order of worship (not a church bulletin) but how the church should operate under the Holy Spirit. We don't see that AT ALL in about 99% of our churches today.

There is definitely a need to return to what God's Word saids rather than Joeshmo expert on how to bring people in.

S
sermonindex

But its always my prayer that I remain in a spirit of humility rather a spirit of critism and this is really what I am trying to address.

As you should be! Amen to that... please dont misunderstand me. We need to confront heresies and heretics with full humility understanding that positionally we are holy, but in our lives we too still sin and fall short.

I think a mistake a lot of folks make is that they think confronting a false teacher is about trying to help them see the error of their ways. It is NOT.

Confronting or exposing a false teacher is all about protecting believers from these wolves! I can not think of one instance in the New Testament where one single false teacher or heretic saw the error of their ways and repented as a result of being confronted by the apostles. (dont say Peter, he was being a hypocrite, not a heretic)

Thats why private meetings with heretics is not suggested in the Bible. The Bible says just the opposite "avoid them", "have nothing to do with them", etc.

We have private meetings with those in the church who you see sinning... with the intention of helping them repent and being restored into a right relationship with the Lord.

There is NO such command in scripture for false teachers. What did the apostles say to one false prophet? "May your money perish with you!"

There was one instance where a woman was delivered from demonic possession that allowed her to prophecy... thats different too. She was under the control of demons. Scripture does not imply this about false teachers or prophets. Clearly the implication is that they are well under their own conrtol.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

If these discussions were taking place in the 16th century you would be burning the heretics at the stake instead of hurling verbal inecctives from your key boards. History tells of what evangelicals have done to heretics. There was Calvin who had Sevetus burned at the stake in Geneva. Then there were the reformers who had the Anabaptist either drowned or burned at the stake. The Ababaotist for the most part were fellow believers. Then there were the Salem witch trials. How many young women were accused of being a witch and put to death? All under church sanction. I might add this was the protestant church that initiated the preceding examples.

We forgot why the brother opened this thread. Yet the thing he called attention to is being done. I keep hearing defending the truth. Honestly this is not the way to do it. If we want to defend the truth then let's be the truth. Let the reality of Jesus Christ be seen in your lives that the counterfeit is exposed. Go back and look at 1 John. That book was written to combat the gnostic heresy. Yet John exhorts his hearers to wm in truth AND LOVE.

I read in a brothers post that he spent hours analyzing what is false. I think that is the problem with some of these threads. We are so consumed with what is false. But what about what is TRUE. Phil.4:8 admonishes us to think about what is true. Namely him who is true, Jesus Christ.

It is said that Treasury agents are trained to detect countfeit bills by studying the real ones. They become so familiar with the real bill they imediately can detect a font one. Might I suggest that the energy being spent on exposing false prophets be spent on seeming Jesus.

Saints I guarantee you false prophets will always be around. You expose one another will take his place.
Better to spend time with him who is truth and learn his voice. Believe me it is less exhausting abnd you can leave those stones at the cross.

Submitted by Blaine Scogin

S
sermonindex

I realize that the spirit of the age says otherwise, but listen to what Paul said to Gods people, day and night for years..........

Therefore I testify to you on this day that I am pure from the blood of all.
(Act 20:26)

For I did not keep back from declaring to you all the counsel of God.
(Act 20:27)

Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.
(Act 20:28)

For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
(Act 20:29)

Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.
(Act 20:30)

Therefore watch and remember that for the time of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
(Act 20:31)

God uses broken men to declare His Word. He uses men who, like Abraham, would intercede on behalf of Sodom. He uses men like Moses who would intercede on behalf of the Israelites. Gods people have compassion upon the multitude, they weep for a lost world, for the Spirit of the living God who so loved the world that He gave His only Son beats within their chests. There is a driving passion that I have seen in Godly men who weep for the state of the Church. They see the multitude as sheep without shepherds and vulnerable to the wolves who come in to devour.

These last days will not be for those of faint heart. Its time to gird up our loins as the Scriptures say, with Truth and take on the breastplate of righteousness. These are instructions to soldiers to take up the weapons of their warfare and stand fast in the evil day. The old hymn says " Though none go with you, still I will follow." This is the Spirit of our brothers and sisters down through the ages.

The righteous are as bold as lions. Its the same Spirit that burned in David as he tackles a bear and a lion, then he runs towards Goliath. The Hebrew children say to that old King that he may shove them in the fire, but even if God does not save them, they would never bow down to the gods of this world. Its the same Spirit that burned in all of those called upon in the first three centuries to go into the public square once a year, dip there fingers in oil and proclaim roman rulers as Gods, they would not and they died in the arena. Century after century, men, woman and children, with the Spirit of God burning in their chests would rather face the fire of man than lose the fire of God in their bones. Paul sings glory to God in the depths of the dungeon and the whole building shakes and the men are loosed from their bondages. Where is this Spirit burning in men today? Men who would rather die than dishonor their God. Oh I believe they are among us brothers and sisters, maybe even you who read this. The time is coming soon I believe where we may get to see such a display again in the West of men and woman sold out to the Living God above all else and with their whole hearts..........brother Frank

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Brother Martyr, I would recommend you go back and study your history a little closer before you level blanket accusations against the Reformers... particularly John Calvin. Your ignorance of the facts is horrendous.

Contrary to popular opinion, John Calvin did not have Sevetus burned at the stake. The courts did. John Calvin served as an expert witness during the trial (by court order) as to what the definition of "heretic" was. He actually argued for the court to have mercy on him. Calvin spent years arguing back and forth with this man trying to show him his error. Sevetus was such a heretic, and such an antagonist, that even the Catholic Church (which hated the courts of Geneva and all reformers) congratulated the courts when the verdict was rendered. Now-a-days, to ignorant 21st century believers who hate hearing the Doctrines of Grace... Sevetus is their hero. What does that tell you?

Did every reformer act according to scripture? No. But to imply that all or most reformers were blood thirsty heretic killers is patently false, easily refuted... and frankly, a lie.

Next your going to perhaps bring up the lie that Martin Luther hated Jews? (altho thats a popular lie, there is no truth in it... in fact, Luther went out of his way to share the gospel with Jews in his vicinity!)

Certainly the Salem witch trials, drowning Anabaptists, etc were wretched acts. But that was about 1% of what happened in the Reformation.

No one here is promoting killing heretics, and shame on you for suggesting such a thing.

May I remind you that bearing false witness against someone applies to dead people, my brother. A lie about a dead reformer is no different than repeating a lie about a brother who sits next to you in church.

Study church history.

Krispy

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Krispykritter said:
Next your going to perhaps bring up the lie that Martin Luther hated Jews? (altho thats a popular lie, there is no truth in it...


On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Part XI


"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

But when they boast that Moses allowed or commanded them to exact usury from strangers, citing Deuteronomy 23:20 apart from this they cannot adduce as much as a letter in their support we must tell them that there are two classes of Jews or Israelites. The first comprises those whom Moses, in compliance with God's command, led from Egypt into the land of Canaan. To them he issued his law, which they were to keep in that country and not beyond it, and then only until the advent of the Messiah. The other Jews are those of the emperor and not of Moses. These date back to the time of Pilate, the procurator of the land of Judah. For when the latter asked them before the judgment seat, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" they all said, "Crucify him, crucify him!" He said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" They shouted in reply, "We have no king but Caesar!" [Matt. 27:22; John 19:15]. God had not commanded of them such submission to the emperor; they gave it voluntarily.

But when the emperor demanded the obedience due him, they resisted and rebelled against him. Now they no longer wanted to be his subjects. Then he came and visited his subjects, gathered them in Jerusalem, and then scattered them throughout his entire empire, so that they were forced to obey him. From these the present remnant of Jews descended, of whom Moses knows nothing, nor they of him; for they do not deserve a single passage or verse of Moses. If they wish to apply Moses' law again, they must first return to the land of Canaan, become Moses' Jews, and keep his laws. There they may practice usury as much as strangers will endure from them. But since they are dwelling in and disobeying Moses in foreign countries under the emperor, they are bound to keep the emperor's laws and refrain from the practice of usury until they become obedient to Moses. For Moses' law has never passed a single step beyond the land of Canaan or beyond the people of Israel. Moses was not sent to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other nation with his law, but only to the people whom he led from Egypt into the land of Canaan, as he himself testifies frequently in Deuteronomy. They were expected to keep his commandments in the land which they would conquer beyond the Jordan.

Moreover, since priesthood, worship, government with which the greater part, indeed, almost all, of those laws of Moses deal have been at an end for over fourteen hundred years already, it is certain that Moses' law also came to an end and lost its authority. Therefore the imperial laws must be applied to these imperial Jews. Their wish to be Mosaic Jews must not be indulged. In fact, no Jew has been that for over fourteen hundred years.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

I hear it said that the Jews donate large sums of money and thus prove beneficial to governments. Yes, but where does this money come from? Not from their own possessions but from that of the lords and subjects whom they plunder and rob by means of usury. Thus the lords are taking from their subjects what they receive from the Jews, i.e., the subjects are obliged to pay additional taxes and let themselves be ground into the dust for the Jews, so that they may remain in the country, lie boldly and freely, blaspheme, curse, and steal. Shouldn't the impious Jews laugh up their sleeves because we let them make such fools of us and because we spend our money to enable them to remain in the country and to practice every malice? Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they suck the marrow from our bones. If it is right for a servant to give his master or for a guest to give his host ten florins annually and, in return, to steal one thousand florins from him, then the servant or the guest will very quickly and easily get rich and the master or the host will soon become a beggar.

And even if the Jews could give the government such sums of money from their own property, which is not possible, and thereby buy protection from us, and the privilege publicly and freely to slander, blaspheme, villify, and curse our Lord Jesus Christ so shamefully in their synagogues, and in addition to wish us every misfortune, namely, that we might all be stabbed to death and perish with our Haman, emperor, princes, lords, wife, and children -- this would really be selling Christ our Lord, the whole of Christendom together with the whole empire, and ourselves, with wife and children, cheaply and shamefully. What a great saint the traitor Judas would be in comparison with us! Indeed, if each Jew, as many as there are of them, could give one hundred thousand florins annually, we should nevertheless not yield them for this the right so freely to malign, curse, defame, impoverish by usury a single Christian. That would still be far too cheap a price. How much more intolerable is it that we permit the Jews to purchase with our money such license to slander and curse the whole Christ and all of us and, furthermore, reward them for this with riches and make them our lords, while they ridicule us and gloat in their malice. That would prove a delightful spectacle for the devil and his angels, over which they could secretly grin like a sow grins at her litter, but which would indeed merit God's great wrath.

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews. Lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, the blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, his dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. Do not aid and abet them in acquiring your money or your subjects' money and property by means of usury. We have enough sin of our own without this, dating back to the papacy, and we add to it daily with our ingratitude and our contempt of God's word and all his grace; so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews and over and above it all, to pay them for it with money and property. Let us consider that we are now daily struggling with the Turks, which surely calls for a lessening of our sins and a reformation of our life. With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

And you, my dear gentlemen and friends who are pastors and preachers, I wish to remind very faithfully of your official duty, so that you too may warn your parishioners concerning their eternal harm, as you know how to do, namely, that they be on their guard against the Jews and avoid them so far as possible. They should not curse them or harm their persons, however. For the Jews have cursed and harmed themselves more than enough by cursing the Man Jesus of Nazareth, Mary's son, which they unfortunately have been doing for over fourteen hundred years. Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not. Let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.

When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to your self: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods. Perhaps he has spat on the ground many times this very day over the name of Jesus, as is their custom, so that the spittle still clings to his mouth and beard, if he had a chance to spit. If I were to eat, drink or talk with such a devilish mouth, I would eat or drink myself full of devils by the dish or cupful just as I surely make myself a cohort of all the devils that dwell in the Jews and that deride the precious blood of Christ. May God preserve me from this!

We cannot help it that they do not share our belief. It is impossible to force anyone to believe. However. we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering. cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts, especially since they boast so proudly and despicably when we do help and serve them that God has ordained them as lords and us as servants. For instance, when a Christian kindles their fire for them on a Sabbath, or cooks for them in an inn whatever they want, they curse and defame and revile us for it, supposing this to be something praiseworthy, and yet they live on our wealth, which they have stolen from us. Such a desperate, thoroughly evil poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing. For if they punish thievery, robbery, murder, blasphemy, and other vices among us Christians, why should the devilish Jews be scot-free to commit their crimes among us and against us? We suffer more from them than the Italians do from the Spaniards, who plunder the host's kitchen, cellar, chest, and purse, and, in addition, curse him and threaten him with death. Thus the Jews, our guests, also treat us; for we are their hosts. They rob and fleece us and hang about our necks, these lazy weaklings and indolent bellies; they swill and feast, enjoy good times in our homes, and by way of reward they curse our Lord Christ, our churches, our princes, and all of us, threatening us and unceasingly wishing us death and every evil. Just ponder this: How does it happen that we poor Christians nourish and enrich such an idle and lazy people, such a useless, evil pernicious people, such blasphemous enemies of God, receiving nothing in return but their curses and defamation and every misfortune they may inflict on us or wish us? Indeed, we are as blind and unfeeling clods in this respect as are the Jews in their unbelief, to suffer such great tyranny from these vicious weaklings, and not perceive and sense that they are our lords, yes, our mad tyrants, and that we are their captives and subjects. Meanwhile they wail that they are our captives, and at the same time mock us -- as though we had to take this from them!

But if the authorities are reluctant to use force and restrain the Jews' devilish wantonness, the latter should, as we said, be expelled from the country and be told to return to their land and their possessions in Jerusalem, where they may lie, curse, blaspheme, defame, murder, steal, rob, practice usury, mock, and indulge in all those infamous abominations which they practice among us, and leave us our government, our country, our life, and our property, much more leave our Lord the Messiah, our faith, and our church undefiled and uncontaminated with their devilish tyranny and malice. Any privileges that they may plead shall not help them; for no one can grant privileges for practicing such abominations. These cancel and abrogate all privileges.

If you pastors and preachers have followed my example and have faithfully issued such warnings, but neither prince nor subject will do anything about it, let us follow the advice of Christ (Matthew 10:14) and shake the dust from our shoes, and say, "We are innocent of your blood." For I observe and have often experienced how indulgent the perverted world is when it should be strict, and, conversely, how harsh it is when it should be merciful. Such was the case with King Ahab, as we find recorded in I Kings 20. That is the way the prince of this world reigns. I suppose that the princes will now wish to show mercy to the Jews, the bloodthirsty foes of our Christian and human name, in order to earn heaven thereby. But that the Jews enmesh us, harass us, torment and distress us poor Christians in every way with the above mentioned devilish and detestable deeds, this they want us to tolerate, and this is a good Christian deed, especially if there is any money involved (which they have filched and stolen from us).

What are we poor preachers to do meanwhile? In the first place, we will believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is truthful when he declares of the Jews who did not accept but crucified him, "You are a brood of vipers and children of the devil [cf. Matt. 12:34]. This is a judgment in which his forerunner John the Baptist concurred, although these people were his kin. Now our authorities and all such merciful saints as wish the Jews well will at least have to let us believe our Lord Jesus Christ, who, I am sure, has a more intimate knowledge of all hearts than do those compassionate saints. He knows that these Jews are a brood of vipers and children of the devil, that is, people who will accord us the same benefits as does their father, the devil, and by now we Christians should have learned from Scripture as well as experience just how much he wishes us well.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnaping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason I should like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils. Nor do the Jews treat any others as they do us Christians. That is what I had in mind when I said earlier that, next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter and feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified, and cursed by them, and to suffer every evil at their hands -- these venomous serpents and devil's children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord and of us all. And if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind and worship this holy object. Then let him boast of his mercy, then let him boast that he has strengthened the devil and his brood for further blaspheming our dear Lord and the precious blood with which we Christians are redeemed. Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews in the eternal fire of hell!

That is speaking coarsely about the coarse cursing of the Jews. Others write much about this, and the Jews know very well that it is cursing, since they curse and blaspheme consciously. Let us also speak more subtly and, as Christians, more spiritually about this. Thus our Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew 10:40, "He who receives me receives him who sent me." And in Luke 10:16, "He who rejects you rejects me. And he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." And in John 15:23, "He who hates me hates my father also." In John 5:23, "That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him," etc.

These are, God be praised, clear and plain words, declaring that all that is done to the honor or to the dishonor of the Son is surely also done to the honor or to the dishonor of God the Father himself. We Christians cannot have or countenance any doubt of this. Whoever denies, defames, and curses Jesus of Nazareth, the Virgin Mary's Son, also denies, defames, and curses God the Father himself, who created heaven and earth. But that is what the Jews do, etc.

And if you say that the Jews do not believe or know this since they do not accept the New Testament, I reply that the Jews may know or believe this or that; we Christians, however, know that they publicly blaspheme and curse God the Father when they blaspheme and curse this Jesus. Tell me, what are we going to answer God if he takes us to account now or on the day of judgment, saying: "Listen, you are a Christian. You are aware of the fact that the Jews openly blasphemed and cursed my Son and Me, you gave them opportunity for it, you protected and shielded them so that they could engage in this without hindrance or punishment in your country, city, and house." Tell me: What will we answer to this?

Of course, we accord anyone the right not to believe *omissive et privatim* ["by neglect and privately'']; this we leave to every one's conscience. But to parade such unbelief so freely in churches and before our very noses, eyes, and ears, to boast of it, to sing it, teach it, and defend it, to revile and curse the true faith, and in this way lure others to them and hinder our people_that is a far, far different story. And this is not changed by the fact that the Jews do not believe the New Testament, that they are unacquainted with it, and that they pay it no heed. The fact remains that we are acquainted with it and that we cannot acquiesce in having the Jews revile and curse it in our hearing. To witness this and keep silent is tantamount to doing it ourselves. Thus the accursed Jews encumber us with their diabolical, blasphemous, and horrible sins in our own country."

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I hate copy pasting... but here it goes... **sigh**

Libel Against Luther

Our article “How the Reformation Changed the World” received many responses from around the world, mostly very positive. However, there were also numerous friends who responded in surprise that we could have so positively quoted from Martin Luther, because from what they had heard, he was anti-Semitic and responsible for terrible atrocities against God’s people, the Jews.


I was even directed towards websites that are dedicated to depicting Luther as an anti-Semite who laid the foundations for the holocaust!


The accusation that Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, responsible for massacres, reveals an ignorance of history. Luther was pro-Christ and he was zealous in evangelism. For decades he lovingly and patiently reached out to the Jewish people in his area with the Gospel. In 1523, Luther accused Catholics of being unfair to Jews in treating them “as if they were dogs”. Luther was outraged and declared that such mistreatment made it even more difficult for Jews to convert to Christ.


Luther wrote: “I would request and advise that one deal gently with the Jews … if we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them, not by Papal Law, but by the Law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, hear our Christian teaching and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either”.


Fifteen years later, however, the persistent rejection of Christ and repeated blasphemies of those Jewish people in his community, provoked Luther to write: “On the Jews and their Lies”. In this pamphlet, Luther wrote against the “madness and blindness that blasphemes Christ” in the Rabbinic teachings. Luther declared that he could not “have any fellowship or patience with obstinate blasphemers and those who defame our dear Saviour.” These blasphemies included describing our Lord Jesus Christ as “the bastard Son” of “that whore, Mary”, and even worse. Blasphemy was a civil crime. Luther taught that to tolerate such blasphemy was to share in the guilt for it. Therefore, he proposed measures of “sharp mercy” which included confiscating all Jewish literature which was blasphemous and prohibiting Rabbis to teach such blasphemy.


However, to quote these reactions of Luther without explaining their local context of opposing the repeated blasphemies of Jewish individuals in his community, and then to project guilt for the continent-wide, anti-Christian holocaust of World War II upon the great 16th century Reformer is ludicrous. How can any Christian Reformer of the 16th century be blamed for the evils perpetrated by those humanists (who clearly rejected his teachings) 400 years after his death!


Hitler was a disciple of the atheist Nietzsche (the philosopher who declared: “God is dead!”) – not Luther. Luther was not an anti-Semite. His arguments against Jewish individuals were theological, not biological or cultural. He was speaking out against blasphemy and heresy, not opposing an entire race or nation of people.


Nevertheless, the harsh and extreme terminology used by Luther in his writings leave many of his supporters embarrassed and confused as to how a man, who so wondrously preached the grace of God, could have been so ungracious in his writings on the Jews.


By his own admission, Martin Luther was often harsh in opposing those who rejected Christ. “I cannot deny that I am more vehement than I should be …” he wrote. “But, they assail … God’s Word so atrociously and criminally that … these monsters are carrying me beyond the bounds of moderation.”


Luther once asked: “What do you think of Christ? Was He abusive when He called the Jews an adulterous and perverse generation, an offspring of vipers, hypocrites and children of the devil? … the truth … cannot be patient against its obstinate and intractable enemies” (Matthew 23).


Of course, the few pamphlets which Luther wrote against Jewish blasphemies, pale when compared to the many books produced by Luther against the Papacy. “We should take him – the Pope, the Cardinals and whatever riff-raff belongs to his idolatrous and papal holiness, and as blasphemers, tear out their tongues from the back and nail them on the gallows.”


On another occasion Luther wrote: “Why should we hesitate to use arms against these teachers of perdition, the cardinals, popes and the whole Roman Sodom, which corrupts the Church of God without end, and wash our hands in their blood?”


Luther admitted that he was, on occasion, bull-headed, coarse-tongued and intemperate.


His speech and actions were frequently intense. Luther wrote: “I was born to go to war and give battle to sects and devils, that is why my books are stormy and war-like.”


“What good does salt do if it does not bite? What good does the edge of the sword do if it does not cut?”


“How often must I cry out to you, coarse, stupid papists, to quote Scripture sometime? Scripture! Scripture! Scripture! Do you not hear you deaf goat and coarse …?”


On another occasion, when he was being publicly criticised, Luther declared: “I’m a tough Saxon, a peasant. I’ve grown a thick skin for this kind of … ”


The Reformer did sometimes, however, regret his outbursts. He explained to his wife, Katie: “Why, I sometimes rage about a piddling thing not worthy of mention. … Isn’t that a shameful thing?” Luther could repent and apologise with a wholeheartedness unlike any other. He could also laugh at himself, and was often cheerful and witty when everyone around him was desperate.


Unlike many of his time, Luther did not, however, hold Jews responsible for the death of Christ. As he wrote in a hymn: “We dare not blame … the band of Jews; ours is the shame.” Luther frequently emphasised that the blame for the death of Christ was upon each individual sinner, not least himself. Luther continued to the end of his life to maintain an eagerness and desperate longing that Jews might be won for Christ.


It is most disturbing that such a humble and God-fearing man, who, against all odds, gave to the church, and the world, the Bible, freely available in the common tongue; who introduced congregational singing; championed justification by God’s grace, received by faith, on the basis of the finished work of Christ; who stood for Sola Scriptura – that Scripture alone is our ultimate authority; and who was so wonderfully used of the Lord to bring about the greatest Biblical Reformation and birth of freedom that the world had ever known, could be the target of such vicious slander.


The Scriptures implore us: “Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it.” James 4:11


Even more, the Scriptures continually command us to respect our elders, especially our spiritual fathers. “Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly …” Leviticus 19:32


“Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father …” 1 Timothy 5:1

(Exodus 20:12; Leviticus 19: 3; Deuteronomy 27:16; Proverbs 30:17; Matthew 15:4).


“Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind.” 1 Peter 2:1

There is a disturbing tendency throughout the church, seen regularly in those homes where they have “roast pastor for Sunday lunch”, to continually set ourselves up as judges of those who are better than us.


Many have the gift of criticism and a ministry of discouragement.


As the Scripture so plainly shows us, slander of every kind is inseparable from malice, deceit, hypocrisy and envy. The middle letter of pride is “I”, the middle letter of lie is “I”, the middle letter of sin is “I”, so too the middle letter of Lucifer is “I”. Self-centered pride is often at the root of our desire to slander great men and women of the past, and to drag down others whom God has raised up.


Do those who so confidently condemn Martin Luther really believe, in the light of eternity, in the sight of God, that they have served God’s people and God’s cause and Kingdom with even 1% as much dedication and effectiveness as Martin Luther? If they do, it betrays an ignorance of history and a blindness to their own weaknesses.


It is most encouraging that while Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, he prayed: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34

Dr. Peter Hammond


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Another lesson in history....

WERE THE ANABAPTISTS PERSECUTED FOR THEIR FAITH?

It is fairly common to hear the claims that the Reformers persecuted the Anabaptists just because they "were not willing to baptise babies." One correspondent wrote that rather than celebrate the Reformation "would it not be preferable to study the Scriptures…"

Of course, our highest priority is to "study the Scriptures daily to see if these things be true". In fact that is the heritage of the Reformation. The Reformation gave us back the Bible freely available, translated into our own languages, and the Reformers championed "Scripture alone is our final authority". The Reformation succeeded in bringing about greater freedoms than had ever been experienced before in human history.

Those who accuse the Reformers of persecuting the Anabaptists are being unfair and selective in not reporting the whole context. The Anabaptists were not so much opposed and convicted for not being willing to baptise babies, but because the Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries.

While the Anabaptists claimed to be the only true Christians, they denied many of the key elements of the Faith. They rejected Biblical Law, Christian ministry, worship and sacraments, and the Anabaptists proclaimed socialism, egalitarianism and revolution. They claimed "it is impossible to be Christian and wealthy at the same time"; "all authorities, secular and clerical, must be deprived of their offices once and for all or be killed by the sword…"

Igor Shafarevich in his book The Socialist Phenomenon, documents the teachings and activities of two important Anabaptist leaders, Thomas Muntzer and John of Leyden. Muntzer, an itinerant preacher and organiser of rebellions, established his revolutionary base in Muhlhausen from where he issued proclamations damning landowners, magistrates, and the Reformers. "I would like to smell your frying carcass" he wrote to Martin Luther.

In 1525, Muntzer was successful in rousing up many of the peasants of central Germany in the bloody, so called Peasants Revolt, which it should be noted attracted several nobles to his side. "Let your swords be ever-warm with blood!" Muntzer exhorted his faithful followers. Muntzer's army of Anabaptists struck terror throughout the countryside, robbing, burning and destroying the property of the faithful, killing many thousands.

Frederick Engels praised Muntzer's "robust vandalism" and explained "by the Kingdom of God Muntzer meant a society without class differences, private property and the state authority…. All the existing authorities…were to be overthrown, all work and property shared in common and complete equality introduced."

Engels praised Muntzer's doctrines in this way: "Under the cloak of Christianity he preached a kind of pantheism, which curiously resembled modern speculative contemplation and at times even approached atheism. He repudiated the Bible both as the only and as the infallible revelation. The real and living revelation, he said, was reason, a revelation which existed and always exists amongst all people at all times. To hold up the Bible against reason, he maintained, was to kill the spirit with the letter, …faith is nothing but reason come alive in man, and pagans could therefore also have faith…just as there is no heaven in the beyond, there is no hell and no damnation. Similarly, there is no devil…Christ was a man, as we are, a prophet and a teacher..."

In 1534, Anabaptist leader Jan Matthijs siezed the town of Munster. "Armed Anabaptists broke into houses and drove out everyone who was unwilling to accept second baptism. Winter was drawing to a close; it was a stormy day and wet snow was falling. An eyewitness account describes crowds of expelled citizens walking through the knee-deep snow. They had not been allowed even to take warm clothing with them. Women carrying children in their arms, old men leaning on staffs. At the city gate they were robbed once more." (The Socialist Phenomenon - Shafarevich)

Jan Matthijs and Johan Bokelson then instituted a reign of terror in Munster, ordering the socialisation of all property, and ordaining apostles of revolution to preach throughout Europe. The communist paradise of Munster attracted thousands of Anabaptists from throughout Germany and Holland. Matthijs was killed in one of the early battles with surrounding cities. Johan Bokelson took command and established a dictatorship in Munster. He then issued the order for holding everything in common, including wives.

As Frederick Engels observed: "It is a curious fact that in every large revolutionary movement the question of free-love comes to the foreground". No woman was allowed to be exempt - there was a law against being unmarried, which meant that every girl was forced to be passed around amongst the men. Every woman in Munster became fair game for the lusts of these Anabaptist men. Rapes, suicides, severe punishments and mass executions took place almost every day. On one notable occasion, Bokelson himself beheaded a virtuous woman who had refused his sexual advances. As he ceremoniously chopped her head off in the public square, a choir of his wives sang "Glory to God in the Highest"! (Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators by David Chilton).

This reign of terror continued for a year and a half until the city was freed by Protestant forces who put Bokelson and his lieutenants to death for their crimes - crimes committed in the name of love, equality and spirituality.

I have left out most of the sordid and horrifying details of the 1525 Peasants Revolt and the 1534 Anabaptist "Kingdom of God" established in Munster. But these few examples should be sufficient to explain why Anabaptists were opposed. It was not that they were being persecuted for taking the Scriptures seriously, but because they were violent revolutionaries subverting the entire social order and guilty of the deaths of many thousands of innocent people.

Those who would claim that the Anabaptists have changed dramatically since that time, should recognise that it is for that very reason therefore unfair to portray the Reformers as supporting the persecution of poor innocent Anabaptists, as that is plainly not the case. Yes, the Anabaptists have changed since. So we should not continue to propagate the false accusation that Reformers were persecuting pacifist Anabaptists who were seeking to mind their own business. The Anabaptists that were opposed by the Reformers in the 1520's and 1530's were violent revolutionaries guilty of abominable atrocities and abuses.

For further reading, I would encourage you to read - When All Men Speak Well of You and Why Is There So Much Hostility Against the Bible and Christianity? and obtain these outstanding books: What If Jesus Had Never Been Born by Dr. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe, Under the Influence - How Christianity Transformed Civilisation by Alvin Schmidt, and The Great Christian Revolution by Otto Scott. We all owe a tremendous debt to the Reformation in so many different ways. The Reformation was the greatest movement for faith and freedom that the world has ever seen.

Dr. Peter Hammond
Frontline Fellowship

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It is said that Treasury agents are trained to detect countfeit bills by studying the real ones. They become so familiar with the real bill they imediately can detect a font one. Might I suggest that the energy being spent on exposing false prophets be spent on seeming Jesus.


Better to spend time with him who is truth and learn his voice. Believe me it is less exhausting abnd you can leave those stones at the cross.


Back on topic.

Blaine, it is because we "have studied the real" that we are accountable before GOD to expose counterfeits to protect the young in Christ and the Biblically illiterate. That is a charge to the mature in Christ.
THANK GOD for those who helped us when we were young in the LORD, to protect us from the enemies of the truth who were trying to gain us into their folds. Thank GOD for the men who taught and warned us from The Word, what was truth and what was error.

You are judging us, that we Don't have a strong relationship with The LORD and do nothing but sit and expose heresies.
We can fast, pray and study the Word and show a young convert where the man he's following is Biblically off or even lethally dangerous and still be in the will of GOD - covering all aspects of Biblical Christianity - evangelizing, praying for the persecuted, helping the infirmed and on and on, but we will never stop exposing counterfeits as long as we follow His Word and live for Him. And I will continue to defend the men or women who do protect our fellowships from the false prophets, hirelings and heresies as long as I'm alive.

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Amen Jesus-is-GOD... People see someone like me or others on this forum and think that by reading a small percentage of what we write that they know who we are, and are able to figure us out. I’ve been here longer than most and it is safe to say that with the exception of 1 or 2 people… none of you really know anything about me. What you see on here is about 1% of who I am or my walk with the Lord.

It would be laughable (and pathetic) if all I did was talk or worry about false teachers all the time.

Krispy

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Krispykritter,

I have posted an original work by Martin Luther to show his hatred for the Jews because I believe that in order to judge if someone is false or true we must go to their own writings and Not what someone else says about them.
Does that sound fair to you?

You accused Non-Reformers to be against the "Doctrines of Grace".
We are not against the grace of God that teaches us to shun ungodliness and worldly lust, but we are against any other kind of Grace that may contradict the Word of God, because we believe that the Devil may appear as an angel of light.

Here is another quote by Luther on "GRACE".
Notice again I am trying to stick to original writings by Reformers.

A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521

"...Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

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I have posted an original work by Martin Luther to show his hatred for the Jews because I believe that in order to judge if someone is false or true we must go to their own writings and Not what someone else says about them.
Does that sound fair to you?

No, actually it does not. You presented a writing with absolutely no cultural or social context. You can not look at that without knowing what was going on in that vicinity or Europe in the 1500's and possibly understand why he said what he said.

I hope you dont read the Bible that way.

We are not against the grace of God that teaches us to shun ungodliness and worldly lust, but we are against any other kind of Grace that amy contradict the Word of God, because we believe that the Devil may appear as an angel of light.

You do not even know what is meant by "The Doctrines of Grace"... I can not continue to have this discussion. Sorry. Go learn what is meant by "The Doctrines of Grace" and perhaps we can continue this.

As for your last Luther quote... you do understand that he wrote throughout his entire life. He wrote as a Catholic monk, as a man leaving the Catholic church, as a man discovering the truth... on thru until an old man. You picked one paragraph from a life of writings as his theology evolved.

This is a poor way to handle history and the Bible.

Krispy

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Good points.

I have been a member here at SermonIndex for nearly eight years. Over that time, many people have come and gone. Ever-so-often, individuals have joined the forums and immediately shared their views and "words" with the noise and upper amplitude that often leaves little room for humility, discourse or encouragement. At times, we have even had two or more brothers with opposing views engaged in a conflict declaring the other as embracing "false doctrine."

I have been thinking about the decision to remove the private message (PM) feature from SermonIndex. At first, I was disappointed, because I know firsthand the amount of good that the feature has been able to provide. Yet, upon further thought, I have also had some horrible experiences from the feature. I have been intensely confronted several times by a few probably well-meaning brethren who disagreed with me regarding a doctrinal consideration (or, at times, disagreed with the fact that I disagreed with their views, ideas or "words"). It is amazing how "different" someone can be in private messages...and, often, not for the better.

Disagreements are to be expected. We come from different experiences, different regional, denominational and educational backgrounds and levels of maturity. Yet, we should not allow disagreements to become the point of our participation here at SermonIndex. Too often, mere disagreements become intense at times when we take it upon ourselves to "read between the lines" (or believe ourselves to be gifted with "discernment") when we just shouldn't be engaging in conflict from it to begin with.

Someone once said that it would be best to avoid public conflicts until we could actually speak in person with a brother...or walk a mile in their shoes.

On a more personal level...

I guess that it does sometimes bother me when there is intense conflict, or if someone criticizes me in a way that I think is unfair or misguided. However, I do my best to consider the words of that person and very prayerfully weigh them against what I know of the Lord through prayer and the study of His Word.

After all, at the end of the day, I will be pouring my heart out to the Lord. I push aside every interaction, conversation and thought and get alone with God. It is HIS approval that we so desperately seek. We desire to please Him...know Him...as we worship and seek His face. I do pray that we can fulfill Hebrews 10 and encourage one another via this forum. I suppose that difficult times often cause us to be more willing to overlook non-essential doctrinal disagreements. It would be nice if we had such a deep love and patience with one another even at times that we aren't enduring horrendous persecution.

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Dr Paul, a member of the Voice of the Martyrs board of directors gave the following quote in an article,. He was speaking of the persecuted believers he had visited in Nigeria. What follows is his quote.

These people, they don't know a lot of answers
to Bible stories, and they probably can't give a
good discussion on why Arminianism and
Calvinism are right or wrong. But I can tell you
that when people step up to them with a gun or
a knife , and they are asked 'Will you repeat
after me? and they say No Jesus is Lord. their
theology is very deep and we need that, I need
that, I need that. VOM magazine Jan.2011

I will let the quote speak for itself.

Blaine Scogin

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I have been on SI for about six years, and you see the same patterns time and time again. There are those who speak up, about anything really, there are those who cannot handle that and speak against those who speak out. And then there are those who never take a particular stand other than the stand that they take against those who take a stand :) Now say that three times quickly :) Posts are used to subtly take revenge on those who have done them ill in the past, at least percieved, passive aggression.

And so, the whole gambit really. You know when a post has gone stale when you get cutting and pasting. If the Lord has laid it upon your heart to weep for the Church and to take a stand, then stand fast, despite the naysayers. God bless all of my brothers and sisters and in everything that we do, may we elevate the name of Jesus above any personal agenda's that we may have that He may be glorified.........brother Frank

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People every where fall in one of two categories.
Those who are willing to die in defense of truth, and those who are willing to kill in defense of error.

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mguldner wrote:

Why are we so quick to critize? The answer is Pride. Pride elevates us just enough to take a potshot at one another or a ministry or even "the times" as we call them. But my question for the critics is What are you going to do about it? See a problem with a ministry? they don't preach the full gospel? Great now what are you going to do about it? Certainly that ministry has a telephone number or an email you could send.

Its much easier to Critize than to do something proaitive about the situation. Post something negative on a forum than to go do something constructive.

I am not saying all critics aren't involved in ministry, but from experience the ones that critized the harshes and most were those that were spectators.

sermonindex wrote:

Brother, I believe you are 100% correct. This is a very clear sin you are exposing in our hearts and it is worthy to spend time introspecting our hearts to see if the root of this pride is in us. I know I constantly have this problem and need to come to the Lord weekly to see if there is a critical spirit in me at all. To speak truly prophetically or to make a defence (apologia) for the Church is right and from the Lord. But to be in the flesh and doing the same is usually ending up in a critical and judging attitude that is doing the work of the devil. The devil is the accuser of the brethren.

May we be known by love which covers over a multitude of sins.

These are both so very true. There is a distinct line between operating prophetically and operating in the flesh. To the world -- and even the Body of Christ -- it is often reflected by whether or not the love of Christ is apparent in our words. Even when a brother or sister is caught in something that we believe to be false, we must ask if we weep for that person as much as we publicly rebuke or argue. Is the love of Christ apparent -- even in the underlying motivations behind our conversations? After all, this world will know that we are His disciples by our love for one another (John 13:35).

Otherwise, we risk being (often rightfully so) as divisive.

David Wilkerson once spoke about an experience in which a woman started attending Times Square Church. She was quite opinionated about even seemingly petty things and spoke to him about all of the problems in her previous congregations that she attended. Pastor David spoke to one of the other pastors about the concern that he felt in regard to this woman. He said that he thought that it wouldn't be long before this woman met up with a few other like-minded critic in the congregation.

Sure enough, he said that within a short period of time, he saw that woman sitting next to that other critic who also had a easy time making their opinions loudly known. And, as Pastor David had predicted, they didn't stick around for long. They eventually left the Church due to "spiritual problems" that they saw that weren't getting addressed with immediate urgency that they desired. Such individuals seem to have a difficult time understanding the difference gossip, division and spiritual speech...as well as the difference between true prophetic discernment, deductive reasoning from their own understanding of the Word and mere "guessing."

I often wonder if it is pride packaged as "apostolic" or "prophetic" spirituality. No matter how much someone tries to vocally operate in the Body of Christ (as a teacher, prophet, apostle or pastor) or as a minister/ambassador of Christ to this fallen world, they are just a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal without the love of Christ (I Corinthians 13:1).

Now, like Krispy said, our love can motivate us to speak out for Christ and even declare injustices to the honor of God. However, even those things are motivated by and reflected with the love of Christ. Growing up, my dad never "spared the rod" when the situation merited such discipline. Yet upon reflection, I never thought that he was motivated by anything but LOVE (and loving concern) for me. In fact, I remember after one particular spanking that I received, I had a friend tell me just how "lucky" that I was to have parents who cared for me so much -- which I thought were interesting words of wisdom coming from a fellow ten year old.

I suppose that we are often motivated to write on a public forum when we disagree. After all, it is easy to feel less than motivated to write a response about words that we agree with.

In fact, I sometimes find myself writing less and less in the forums because I think that it isn't worth the hassle to argue or debate...or that I find so much that I actually AGREE with (rather than disagree)...or that I just feel a little prompted in my heart to refrain from interacting at times. I certainly don't read all of the posts or threads here at SermonIndex. I have long since concluded that it isn't very fruitful (and may be a bit of a time waste) to participate in every discussion.

Lately, I have been thinking that it would be good to write as much encouragement as I can to brothers who may need it...instead of participating in every past debate, discussion or quarrel. I suppose that is one of the reasons that I will miss the PM feature. Although there were two or three bad experiences, I found many more words of encouragement from brethren -- many whom I scarcely knew. Sometimes, I would log into SermonIndex and find a PM from some brother with a simple word of encouragement...at a time that I really needed it.

I have come to think that such encouragement is much more vital than anyone trying to "set us straight" via debates, quarrels or "words" that they think that they need to share. After all, Hebrews 10:24-25 mentions that such encouragement and provoked love are the primary reasons we are to assemble ourselves together.

Pride is difficult sin to conquer. It disguises itself so well...and, when disguised in spiritual clothes, even tries to convince us that it is either justified or commendable. Thankfully, we can even bring our pride before the Lord when we meet with Him daily in our secret place. Nothing is hidden from God's sight -- and that is most apparent when we brokenly prostrate ourselves before Him in prayer. We ask the Lord to identify all such things in our lives...and give us the grace to conquer such issues...that we then have that Philippians chapter 2 type of heart. May He start with me.

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Someone made a comment about cut & paste... boy aint that the truth. I hardly ever cut & paste because I cant stand to read something someone else has cut & pasted. In this instance I could not let another lie about church history be perpetrated on this forum.

None the less, this thread has run it's course. I respect the original poster. He wrote from a sincere heart and thats where God has him, and that is where he should be.

To my new friend who actually got me to cut & paste... I love you brother. You implied in your last post that I would kill to defend error (and John Calvin killed no one... and what would have been the error he was defending anyway?). This is not true at all. I will, however, kill a deer for venison... yummy!

I will continue to do what I do when the Lord prompts me to do so, and I will gladly take it on the chin from those that hate me for it. It matters not to me, I am only concerned about my own obedience to the Lord, as we all need to be concerned for ourselves.

In the meantime, this thread took up entirely too much of my time today... moving on to something more interesting.

Krispy

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"I have been on SI for about six years, and you see the same patterns time and time again. There are those who speak up, about anything really, there are those who cannot handle that and speak against those who speak out."

"And then there are those who never take a particular stand other than the stand that they take against those who take a stand :) Now say that three times quickly :) Posts are used to subtly take revenge on those who have done them ill in the past, at least perceived, passive aggression. ".....Appolus..[ Brother Frank. ]

Sometimes you amaze me Appollus. Very perceptive discernment here...and spot on.....................

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18. How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20.But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22. And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25.To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever." Amen.


and.....10. "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11. "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

We must stand with the conviction of truth in our spirits, and allow the Word to shine His light upon our hearts....and warn others, in love, who may oppose us......................and......

26. "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27. "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29. "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock!"

30. "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them!"

31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

Sometimes we just have input, and sometimes more. Not everyone is going to agree with you, as above, or like you for it. Never-the-less, "I believed, therefore I have spoken."

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Amen Jesus-is-GOD... People see someone like me or others on this forum and think that by reading a small percentage of what we write that they know who we are, and are able to figure us out. I’ve been here longer than most and it is safe to say that with the exception of 1 or 2 people… none of you really know anything about me. What you see on here is about 1% of who I am or my walk with the Lord.

It would be laughable (and pathetic) if all I did was talk or worry about false teachers all the time.

Krispy

Man you know the more I post on internet Christian forums, the more I'm convinced they are nothing but about 95% whack jobs. Christians? Probably most. Whack jobs? Yes, that too. I mean you have to figure that about 99.999% of Christians in America don't post on internet BBs. So why do we? Oh, I think we're all messed up in some way. We have issues in our life. Most of us probably don't go to church. A lot of you are probably hard to get along with. But I've been blessed by the post of a few folks on here, and lot of you are really carnal and immature. But most of all there is this false "holier than thou" attitude that pervades this board as if you all are on some kind of higher spiritual plane than your average churchgoer--haha.

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"Most of us probably don't go to church. A lot of you are probably hard to get along with. But I've been blessed by the post of a few folks on here, and lot of you are really carnal and immature. But most of all there is this false "holier than thou" attitude that pervades this board as if you all are on some kind of higher spiritual plane than your average churchgoer--haha."..Endzone...

How could you come to this somewhat bitter conclusion if not because you have taken your eyes off of the subject...off of the Word in your heart...and the love of the truth?

Now, you are a judge of character and personality, and every thing posted is jaded by whether your filter of right-ness, which sits above all others, and sifts enough of the content to "bless" you.You have become a mocker. ha-ha.

This is sad to me..and I think some repentance could be in order. All of us carry about, and post a bit of this mind of death....the flesh....and all of us are somewhat immature...and all the more-so in the loving face of Christ.

So...do you love your babies? Do you criticize them, or nurture them? As your brother or sister...[ most surely are..]..How do you communicate with them?...when your pride accuses them of carnality?

It is not always true...but in this case....your attitude reflects your own heart, as in a mirror...and it is obvious. Your comment is about yourself.

My counsel to you is to consider the subject, and apply your response to the Truth, and the light of the Word of God, and be as edifying as possible. People will not always receive you..and obviously some will criticize you..but see yourself as a servant to them; a brother to them...and express yourself.

There are many wonderful people here...that love Jesus...and know their Bibles...and have maturity and insight...and many infants, toddlers, teens and mamma's and daddy's here...but we all have minds, and opinions...and differ. We are called as one body, though, and our fellowship is not mental...it is within a Spirit...a holy and loving One that is a piece of God's living heart. A Bible verse comes to me:..Jer:31

"For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he!

12..."Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all!"

13. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow."

I like the part about flowing together for the goodness of the Lord...and for the young of the flock. It speaks of body life, and the family of God. This, of course, is a like relationship in the forum, exchanging ideas of faith...rather than hands on types of actions...but never-the-less...the principles are the same as the Word commands...Love One another...and do not bite and devour one another.

Eventually, those who cannot abide by these principles, sooner our later..will go. As the moderators say...keep your eye on the ball..the subject at hand..not the personality.

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sermonindex

Amen Tom... good word, brother.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

by KrispyKrittr on 2011/8/13 4:00:13

"Amen Tom... good word, brother."...
Krispy.

Thanks Krispy. It's a standard I guess. I have let some, I guess, "get my goat" in the past here...but I'm trying to practice what I preach.

The problem being that I have a goat to get...and it's a big, proud stinky one...as it is. One of the major themes that the Lord is laying upon me, is learning how to die to me...and live to Him.

"Blessed are the unoffended." Stephen, the first martyr, and foundational in the mercy-life of Paul the great Apostle...attained something wonderful in the maturity level when he chose to forgive his ignorant and hateful murderers.

Matthew 11:
28.Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30......"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."..."Jesus.

and...."The servant of the Lord MUST NOT strive."

I try to set a circle on the ground...and step inside of it, rather than point the finger. This is not as easy as it sounds...but it is Jesus's way to know Him, and please Him.

I fail to some measure every day.often heart attitudes about my own superiority or being right, or offended at another's disdain of me....
..but I ask forgiveness of Him...and get back up trying to learn love. Thanks for the kind word.

S
sermonindex

by KrispyKrittr on 2011/8/13 4:00:13

"Amen Tom... good word, brother."...
Krispy.

Thanks Krispy. It's a standard I guess. I have let some, I guess, "get my goat" in the past here...but I'm trying to practice what I preach.

The problem being that I have a goat to get...and it's a big, proud stinky one...as it is. One of the major themes that the Lord is laying upon me, is learning how to die to me...and live to Him.

"Blessed are the unoffended." Stephen, the first martyr, and foundational in the mercy-life of Paul the great Apostle...attained something wonderful in the maturity level when he chose to forgive his ignorant and hateful murderers.

Matthew 11:
28.Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30......"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."..."Jesus.

and...."The servant of the Lord MUST NOT strive."

I try to set a circle on the ground...and step inside of it, rather than point the finger. This is not as easy as it sounds...but it is Jesus's way to know Him, and please Him.

I fail to some measure every day.often heart attitudes about my own superiority or being right, or offended at another's disdain of me....
..but I ask forgiveness of Him...and get back up trying to learn love. Thanks for the kind word.

M
mguldner

I wonder what the church would look like if we all did the same? We all saw ourselves as the trouble as to why there was a problem or why something didn't go as planned. Meaning we take the path of humility regarding everyone as better than us.

I have been reading the sermon on the mount for a while now and this is the life that I see, a life humbly submitted not only to Christ but to our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. A life of taking the Low road that many won't travel down because it hits their pride where it counts. This is the path I want to talk or at least desire to walk, it happens sometimes but definitely not on the consistent basis I wish it were on. But Christ is carrying me at His pace and I must be patient and put my hope and trust in Him.

G
ginnyrose

Well said, Tom...

Endzone, I find your analysis disturbing. On another post you wrote that the Spirit of God has left you...remember that post? If this is the case, why do you think you should be taken seriously in matters of spiritual things? Just wondering...

ginnyrose

J
jimp

brother tom and krispy, if it means anything to you i ususally enjoy your posts and the sweet spirit that is obviously in your heart when you type them.except when you didagree with me.loljimp

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