Where is lwpray?

I am wondering where Lars Widerberg is? Did he go to France? I have not seen any posts from him for a long time now. Let us keep our very loved prayer mobilizer in prayer. He is so special.

Dear Friends. I missed Lars about 2 weeks ago. I e-mailed him to ask what was wrong. He has been offended by something that has happened here with some people (he didn't name names). He said he would not be back. I miss his input terribly and told him so. I was discouraged by this turn of events. It's exactly what goes on in churches everywhere.Greg, I find it hard to believe that you don't know what's going on. Isn't he one of your moderators who has been here from the beginning?

Well, I am ready to risk my throat by writing this:I have been able to talk to Lars heart to heart, and also to many other friends, about the attitudes and ways of handling the discussions in the forums. The major attitude is one of confrontation and, as some of us label it, theological box thinking.Lars confronted at one or two occasions those who generally and as a rule use confrontation as a method to get their point across. This caused some serious repercussions which resulted in a restructuring of the moderators setting. There was no possibility to correct the true perpetrators, no church discipline in a setting where the aim is revival and awakening.Many of us have talked these things through and our way of handling the situation is withdrawal. An awakening is certainly needed in the Church at large, but when a setting aimed at a revival is ruled by attitudes and moods opposing this aim, there is little hope. When there is no leadership, the sheep pays as always.Great horror prevails when common goals are sacrificed for personal agendas, the ones who need to repent are seldom the ones who can be reached and who react to correction. Brother Lars has tried to open up for a milder climate of communication and cooperation, but the ones who need to listen positions themselves beyond reproach.In the prayer room we found the items from Intercessors Network most helpful.The discussions in this forum borders outright foolishness as they are never aimed at generating corporate prayer. It mirrors the general attitude in churches towards prayer.Discussion may be allowed in such a forum, but the main aim for the talks should be a growing awareness and direction as to prayer. We do not find any of it as the forum operates at this point. And I know that Lars and others are greatly saddened by this shallow approach.. . .And, Greg, it does not add to our spiritual stature as young men to use words like “ridiculous” when it comes to addressing a man of God, or any man for that matter. This mirrors the general sloppy attitude which prevails at this site right now.Mark

I know that for at least two moderators the relinquishing of moderatorship was our own request, and had nothing to do with any disagreements with Lars or his views.For myself, (hope you don't mind me saying this Greg) I requested to be releaved of the role in order to be free to comment without my comments being regarded as the 'official position' of SI. I felt that the label of 'moderator' might give readers the impression that my comments were authoratitive in some way. I had offered my services to Greg as a gesture of my continuing support for the work he is doing but felt, ultimately, that I could do that better without being a moderator.I suspect that my, and my fellow moderators decision may have precipitated Greg's decision to revise the structure of moderators. I approve strongly of the line he has taken.I feel that one of the unique features of SI is its breadth. I have strong opinions on many issues as readers will know, but I would never want this site to dominated by one point of view, especially not mine. (I have my own site for that. ;-) )The metaphor of the forum (market place)is very valuable. The scene constantly changes, the issues rise and fall. The people in the market must be free to 'heckle' or 'dialogue'. There is no need for a combatative style, and certainly no need for rudeness, but strong opinions expressed strongly should be welcomed here.Greg, has been trusted with God with an extraordinary gift here, and he will be required to give account. The rest of us will be required to give account of our contributions, but Greg will be held responsible for the overall direction of the site. This is a huge responsibility for a young man. I hope all readers will support him in every way possible, especially in patience and prayer.

The "market place" position and the lack of humility called "strong opinion" is precisely what makes us very sad. It reveals nothing of Christ to the community. . .Mark

Well, I am ready to risk my throat by writing this:Beloved!Peace! There are times when just about everyone comes across in some way sharply. Unless one has become a master of tact it is almost inevitable. I have found that many people hold believes that they really hold as true and will defend their beliefs believing they are doing God a service. I do it all the time. It is my hope that they are always in the right spirit. I try to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit to go back, if need be, and apologize. Again, if you read some of my first posts they were characterized by Bro. Ron B. as some of the more immoderate things he had read in some time. He was actually provoked by them. I knew the conversations were tense, but I was not trying to make our dear brother upset. The bizarre thing is that come to find out our doctrinal positions are relatively close. Yet, to hear us conversing in the beginning you would have though we were Augustine and Pelagius. The last issue that 'blew up' was over the article placed from Fox News in the intercession section. I noticed a while back that it was Brother Lars last post and it was not hard to put two and two together. This is why I challenged his reasoning because I felt he was wrong in leaving over that post. Maybe there were other issues such as his position on mysticism as I recall. In both posts Lars referred to his brethren as "Mr" (Mr Gordon and Mr Bailey). I was concerned for the feel of those posts and red flags went up. I personally felt they were not in step with the Lars I was used to reading. Beloved, come and let us reason together! We are brethren. We all have our strongly held beliefs and our 'pet-peeves.' If Jesus could keep a Publican and a Zealot at peace can he not keep us? Lets love one another for love is of God.:-)God Bless,-Robert

I ask you all to talk to Lars personally regarding these issues to sort them out. Perhaps you turned you backs to proper Church procedures related to forgiveness and restoration. Perhaps there was too much pride involved to handle these matters decently.Your common unwillingness to reconcile bothers many of us.Brushing items and issues under the carpet by using generalities and niceties will not do.“Do I have to take care of my brother”?Mark

Discussion may be allowed in such a forum, but the main aim for the talks should be a growing awareness and direction as to prayer. We do not find any of it as the forum operates at this point. And I know that Lars and others are greatly saddened by this shallow approach.Hi Bro. Mark,I spent some time last week reading some materials on the topic of the role of "knowledge" and "information" in praying. I understand the need to 'know' what needs prayer when we pray. I understand that the information's accuracy is highly important. Yet, the true nature of intercession is when we pray in harmony with the Holy Spirit and in the Spirit. Finney called it having the "Spirit of Prayer." You may well know these things, so forgive me for the sake of those who may not. We know not how to pray as we ought. There are a lot of variables in place in prayer; but none is as great as the role of the Holy Spirit. I will not make a doctrinal post out of this by citing passages of scripture. This is a common thing in prayer. Pray unto God touches you to pray and when you do hours will seem like minutes as you take the leap from time into eternity by the power of the Holy Ghost into the throne room of grace. Our objective in prayer and intercession must be to pray in harmony with the Holy Spirit and in the power of the Spirit.Moreover, the second great important thing is that of unity. Our prayers are hindered when the air is not clear between us and our brethren. When we do not show love and mercy to each other our prayers are hindered and the heavens are brass. God does not tolerate the bickering. Intercession is impossible when there is no peace between brethren. God Bless,-Robert

I ask you all to talk to Lars personally regarding these issues to sort them out. That would be almost impossible for me here in the States; but if you are reading this Lars I wish to extend my hand of restoration and peace in the Spirit of Christ. God Bless,-Robert

I have been sensitive as much I could be in this matter and I have emailed Lars at a few points not recieving back much feedback. I do pray He can forgive me at any point that I need that for. As towards restoration or forvgivness as a Church discpline function it is really hard to do this online. I do ask that Lars be mature in this matter and take intiative to allow certain of us his feelings towards this matter. Excuse the statemetn but I "cannot read minds".There is a scriptural pattern whose broad themes are available to us even online. 1. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (Mat 18:15 KJV) The ‘go and tell him his fault’ is almost impossible in the online context, but the principle of keeping it between two brothers is very possible. The exercise of these verses in Matt 18 has an aspect of ‘damage limitation’ and ‘need to know’. The only people who ‘need to know’ are the original ‘offender’ and the original ‘offended’. The responsibility for the first steps in reconciliation does not necessarily lie with the ‘offender’; it lies with the person who is conscious of the offence. In the Matt 18 scenario it is the ‘offended’. In Matt 5:23 it lies with the ‘offender’.2. if 1. above fails to ‘gain’ the ‘offended’ brother a second step is enjoined. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16 KJV) The ‘offended’ draws one or two into the reconciliation attempt. Note that we still have ‘damage limitation’ in that very few people would ever get to hear of this and, note too, that the purpose of the deputation is to effect reconciliation not to produce a winner and a loser.3. if steps 1, & 2, fail, then the things ‘goes public’, in the local church setting at least. The purpose of the exercise is still reconciliation. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church… (Mat 18:17a [KJV)4. if steps 1,2,& 3, have been tried honestly and have failed……: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Mat 18:17a [KJV) I recommend that we give step 1 another try before we go any further with this thread. If there are those who feel offended by my behaviour they have a responsibility to me to tell me and begin the process of reconciliation. (you might be surprised to find how often they do) If I know that my behaviour has offended someone, then I have a responsibility to attempt reconciliation. I am my brother’s keeper, and he is mine.

Hi guys. I just felt led to add my 2 cents. I have been very blessed by the forum and fellowship here at SI. No, it is not perfect, as no one is, or as no church is. But I have felt the love and restoration of the many brothers and sisters here at SI many times. As forums go, this is the most "agreeable", non- confrontational, as I have seen. Personally I have been offended many times in the last year on SI- and the Lord used it every time to humble me and decrease "self' in me, even if I felt I was still right. It is an opportunity to say "it's not about me", it's what kind of love can I show even amidst confrontation or disagreement. It is an opportunity to put others before yourself- to give up the right to be right. I also beleive that Greg's decision to eliminate the many moderators was a good one and told him so right away. I was relieved actually at the time, because my life has been going in a different direction and I could not be on SI as much as I would have liked to or needed to.What comes to mind is "the least shall be the greatest". I have really been blessed at SI by the people who we might show up the least, or have the least "knowledge" (not wisdom), or the least "pull". I appreciate the fact that there is no "heirarchy" system and that no one is considered "better" than another on here. I think, no, I know that this is what has drawn people to the SI forum. They know it's about truth and brotherly love and humility.I know others can attest to this ;-) , I have been offended quite a few times and in my own mind I said that I would not come back on here- yet that was not the Lord's way- that was "self's" way. The Lord would have me apologize to whoever I felt had offended me or I offended and procede to swallow my pride and participate for the good of others. What a time of growing for me!I know I am not here as much as I used to be and i know that is just the season I am in- it has nothing to do with any of Greg's decisions or anyone on here at all. The Lord has just moved me to another season, doing the next thing that He wants me to do. :-) I have a deep respect and love for most everyone on SI and I am glad for the time I had to develop these relationships! No, not one of them is perfect, and neither am I. We are all still clay being molded according to what the Father wants.I miss everyone, to tell you the truth! :-) Just thought I'd let ya,ll know.Many blessings to everyone!In His perfect love, Chanin

the Lord used it every time to humble me and decrease "self' in me, even if I felt I was still right. It is an opportunity to say "it's not about me", it's what kind of love can I show even amidst confrontation or disagreement. It is an opportunity to put others before yourself- to give up the right to be right.Brothers and sisters, I felt to write something and that is a call to humbleness! I don't know what exact situation is and I don't want to know. I just want to call you to be humble one another "Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." As sister Chanin said to "put others before yourself" , this is concering to everyone of us here, without exception. No matter what situation is in front of us my call is "Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up" Brothers and sisters, let us all together have another great victory in the name of Jesus! As we had many times until now, serving, teaching, encouraging one another. Let us all together rejoice once more, and overcome this in our Humble King name - Jesus.Your servant in the Lord,Kire

Could someone post bro. Lars website for his prayer ministry please?

Hello allThis thread really has nothing to do with me but I feel I must say, brother Greg has handled this as well as it could have been handled under the circumstances. And just to add, he did not call brother Lars “ridiculous” but he was referring to the behavior has being ridiculous, that is to say, it is not in line with the “regular” Lars we know and love. I do not want this post to be the start of a battle sides, but I believe that if you read again, what Greg has written you will find it very balanced.In my own irrelevant opinion, walking away from the brethren should always be the last course of action, and even then it does deserve some sort of an explanation so that even if there can be no resolution at that time (and I hope that is not the case now) those who observe the incident can be better equipped to handle the situation if it should ever again occur. The edification of the bride of Christ and not our own feelings should take preeminence. Are we not all called to be spectacles from time to time? 1 Corinthians 4:7-13 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. 9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. James

I don't know if I have any right to write a comment in this forum. I have realised that I'm not the most tactful person on earth, probably the most untactful, yet if I feel strongly about something I will convey my thoughts and feelings as I see it at that time hopefully considering what, why and how and it being consistent with the Word of God.These forums are very wide in subjects and as far as I can see have been conducted in a good manner. The forums are ridiculously (there's that word again) humongous and I presume very hard to moderate. We can't agree on everything or everybodys comments, that's why it is so invigorating to read and get to see "the other side". David Wilkerson once preached about the different type of personalities we have in our congregations and that it enriches us ever so much and that is how I see sermonindex. Praise the Lord for you all because if you all were like me we'd be in trouble.I have a wonderful wife who gives me a quick acknowledgement of my head swelling, which it does often, not to speak about my temper and all the other faults I have. What I'm trying to say is this and all I'm doing here is plagiarising my wifes words:"To really get to know oneself is a short journey but to ourselves it seems to be the longest"Me again. Could I dare to say that the hardest words for a Christian is the words: Forgive Me !and maybe add, for I have sinned against not only God but against my brother with my pride, stubbornness and unforgiving attitude. The destroyer of souls has not come to build up but to destroy and the easiest path is through the least resistance which would be me when I'm the furthest away from the Lord. This post is of course only to those that feel the need to repent of which I would be the biggest. I sincerely ask for your forgiveness due to my inconsiderate comments and with all charity I have ask you all to reconsider your stance in this particular matter and be a loving community of believers as this page I'm sure is doing its designated duty in the work of the Lord.Heaven rejoices in one soul repenting and that should be the goal of this site as well and for all members. Praise the Lord for all you older members and younger ones with your comments for they have made me think all the more and to check if it is so.This is the ramblings of a rambler from the ever hotter outback of Australia.joukoLuk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living. Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet: Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry: Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. Luk 15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Just as a general observation, I think the problem isn't so much immature actions as it is premature actions: as far as I can tell from what has been posted (I was not personally involved in these incidencts), the Matthew 18 protocols have not been followed by any of the offended parties. Breaking fellowship is, in certain regrettable circumstances, a perfectly legitimate and indeed appropriate thing to do; however, it is not something one does without at least discussing the problem with the offender(s), and making quite certain that the offense was intentional, that the offense was in fact a sinful act, and the offender does not intend to change his ways.Lars may have gone through this process, I'm not saying I know otherwise, it just seems (from what little I can see) that it wasn't done.I'm also seeing some other (public) accusations tossed around that don't seem to have been preceded by the first few steps of the Matthew 18 process, or by other attempts to ascertain the deliberateness and/or hardheartedness of the offenders.Nonetheless, I may just be not seeing it, rather than it not being there, particularly since those possibly missing steps of the Matthew 18 process, if they were done correctly, would not have come to my attention unless I were personally involved.Oh, and in case there's still confusion, I think the "Malmo article" being referred to was that one posted in the intercession section about Muslims supposedly become so much of a threat in Malmo, Sweden that the police were scared and unable to contain them and stuff like that. Brother Lars, having actual knowledge of that area (living relatively nearby), repudiated the article as largely false.

Man, this is something.I had written out earlier this morning what I had considered my finest work yet, :-) and lost it all to cyberspace upon submitting, was no longer logged on.To come back this evening and see 20 replies was heartwarming to say the least. God bless you all precious saints. Some of you echoed much of what I was wanting to say. Robert, Praise God brother, too much to try and section out into quotes, just well said. I do recall very well how the horn's locked there a bit, you and Ron, (Philologos) early on and there has been a few other minor skirmishes. I Remember when (Jesse)Lazarus first came here and some of us thought he was just a bit over the top to put it mildly. We had even the now infamous Jake who kept the record for longest running thread on evolution and his rather unorthodox take on scripture. He is no longer with us and though he probably pushed the limits on conduct around here, it was still sad to see him go. Think it's sad to see anyone go if they really are only seeking after the Truth and can just have some decent conduct even with strong opinions.With that, I would like to think that we are all pretty patient for the most part but far from perfect. Myself, being in this 'role' is a strange conundrum, not being anything remotely related to confrontational, having to on occasion step into these situations where someone is being divisive, rude, maligning one of the brethren or otherwise is grievous. But I do want to clarify also something on this 'moderator' thing.Jouko, you said:I don't know if I have any right to write a comment in this forum. You most certainly do brother and that's the point I want to make. We are all moderators in that sense, and I think for the most part everyone is aware of that, this is not Big Brother around here. We ought to be first off moderators of our own selves and looking toward esteeming our brother (sister) more than ourself.Usually if not always it's an issue of conduct that has to be dealt with and anyone can point out when someone is being just obnoxious or divisive. This whole thing can be easily be blown way out of proportion. Think what Greg had attempted earlier in expanding the number was with good intentions as he will soon be going off to Bible school and thus will not have as much time to dedicate to the site. But it obviously backfired and it really was a case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it".Mark said,. . .And, Greg, it does not add to our spiritual stature as young men to use words like “ridiculous” when it comes to addressing a man of God, or any man for that matter. This mirrors the general sloppy attitude which prevails at this site right now.Think this first part was addressed adequately by another member, I probably might have used a different word but wanted to focus on this last part. Mark, I don't know how long you have been following along with us but there is an awful lot of discussions and I am not sure exactly what you may be alluding to. We are not all at the same level around here. There is an incredible cross section of life represented. Some of us are still struggling with words to give proper expression often times. Some of us are way more experienced in matters of faith, I am not one of them. There are members with many years in this walk, you may be one of them for all I know. I guess what I want to say is that there is room for growth and just as surely room for all of us to be humbled before the Lord and each other. Am always willing to do that.JoukoDavid Wilkerson once preached about the different type of personalities we have in our congregations and that it enriches us ever so much and that is how I see sermonindex. Praise the Lord for you all because if you all were like me we'd be in trouble.Ah you stole my thunder there. In the earlier manifesto now lost was rambling on about that. We have Rahman and we have Philologos, about as different in personalities as I could imagine but there is an underlying warmth and sense of humor. moreofHim, Chanin, our dear sister (excellent reply by the way, we missed you sister!)who has taught us all to just shut up already and die to ourselves and spend time with Jesus (hope that is a fair characterization). The passion and heart of Mrs. Fred aka Revival9 and the stark honesty and heart of Spitfire (Dian). There's Gideon my now closer brother and friend who just wants to be in that glorified body NOW (again, hope that's fair brother :-)). PastorEd and Neilgin1 again different personalities as you could get. I could go on and on and Greg already knows I would take the sword for him. Myself, I'm just a knucklehead and I love you all, don't see any reason for breaking of fellowship over this.This isn't just a big Kumbiah (however you spell it) to smooth over everything. But we are brethren, brethren! I just think this is largely a misunderstanding of intentions. Not that he needs defending and it does seem a bit strange to be talking about our brother in this way, but look at the concern. Lars I do hope you read through all of this here and I will be emailing him shortly again. This has been a matter of prayer for awhile now and had written a little while back.Iwpray has been and is one of the most unique individuals I have ever had the pleasure of coming into contact with. The strange thing is that, and I have said this before, it is more of what isn't said that I glean from than what is said. Our brother has labored to produce many articles that speak for themselves, from T.A. Sparks, Tozer, Wilkerson, Murray and Katz to name just a few. It is a rare thing for him to speak in the conversational discussions that many of us get into. His way of expression is truly unique to these ears and I know there is a depth there that few of us have obtained. I also know that prayer and intercession is what comes forth from these depths and that there is a seriousness to all that that entails. I likely don't know the half of it and doubt that it's an overstatement.I see two different perspectives happening here. As it relates to the forum heading of "Intercession and Current Events" it does seem that it was laid out with some intentions in mind if one was to go back to the origins of the first postings. My hunch is that the view as to what might get included in there differed in scope. It was pointed out and I can see where Lars had some issue with the content as it related to prayer and intercession. At the same time the opposite view is that there are "current event's" and I am sure there is next to nothing that couldn't be construed to be a matter of prayer. Don't want to get all entangled in what that may be, maybe it's just in the meshing that is confusing and actually it can be kind of confusing if one is looking at it as 'strictly' events that are a matter of prayer. Knowing that Lars has an excellent newsletter that is available and being that Dohzman asked, here is a shameless plug, (He doesn't have a website by the way) from an earlier post:Intercessors NetworkIt is highly recommended as it is informative of what is happening in often obscure parts of the world that many of us would never hear about.Maybe a different set of headings would be better. I don't know how much room there is for another section but something on the order of "Did you wipe your feet before you came in?" for all that seems to be muddy between the church and the world. Don't really have a great answer right now, maybe nothing needs to be done other than to clarify a bit more. Just went back and read the first listing under the section. GUIDELINE: Praying for current trends and eventsIt does seem that some things that are 'current events' will struggle to fit into that structure. It would be good to hear others points of view on this.Well this awfully long and I am exhausted. Felt compelled to at least address some of these things. And primarily it is just to add my two cent's to what I don't see as being something that can't be reconciled. There is much love for Lars here and much respect.Also, our brother Greg has every right to structure things anyway he chooses, it still is his site even if the Lord is ultimately working through him. He has given much to us all, more than I could begin to tell. Hope we can all pray one for another.Lastly, NeilRegarding the article in question: Swedes Reach Muslim Breaking PointNot everything is partisan politics and am willing to state that I doubt Greg would have even considered that. I couldn't bring myself to quote the words you used, but maybe a second look at what you stated in regards to pride, brother was that necessary?Last of the last,Have we forgotten there is an adversary?Just a thought.

Can I tell you why I don't tell my wife everything? because she doesn't 'need to know'.I discovered a long time ago that when conflicts arise they can quickly become personal, and personal things are said which can be very hurtful. God actually gives grace to the 'hurt' one to find their way through the hurt, learn the lessons and move on in fellowship with the hurters. My early discovery was that the 'wife of the hurt person' stays hurt for a lot longer. So I don't tell her. I fulfil the Matt 18 to the letter 'between thee and him alone'. 'between thee and him alone' excludes even my life partner and closest friend.We have a little banter... it goes like this..."you've got something on your mind, what has happened?" I reply "can you keep a secret?""Yes" says my wife"So can I..." I reply.I don't believe God has given her grace for the situation. I also know that when I have forgotten it and moved on she will still be wounded that such and such a person could have said such a thing to her husband. While my brother and I are sweetly reconciled my wife is left 'distanced'.It is a good reaction to defend the ones we love, but like all things it can have its darker side. My family would tell you how frustrating it is to watch a TV football match with me; I keep changing sides. My instinct is always to support the 'losers', but if the losers begin to win my support switches to the new losers. On this site I have been found supporting Augustine, Calvin and others who would not have expected my support. I think its a 'Christian' instinct.It becomes wrong when I attack in order to defend. It is good to defend injustice whether against peoples or a person, but if I attack another member of the flock in order to defend the first, then my defense mechanism is malfunctioning! It is wrong, and will need confession and repentance. This has been a fruitful device of our mutual enemy from the first. Notice it is not Paul or Apollos or Peter who are locked in combat, but those that are 'of Paul' and 'of Apollos' and 'of Peter'. It's not the main agents but their supporters who have gone to war.Whitfield and Wesley were very close friends. Whitfield asked Wesley to preach at his funeral which Wesley did on the text Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. (Psa 37:37 KJV) Their affection was warm and true and longlasting, but their supporters are still locked in combat. Let us be wise To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:10-11 KJV)There can be no more important truth for those who pray...And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mar 11:25 KJV) 'ought against any' is pretty comprehensive. ;-) btw I hear from Jake occasionally who tells me that he still 'pops in to SI from time to time'. Hi Jake, if you're reading this.

2 Corinthians 3:2 "You are our epistle written in our hearts, know and read by all men;"Dearly beloved I love you all so much. You are precious jewels in our Saviors crown; and precious to my heart.In this thread I have learned something very important, PRAYER. Forgive me Lord for not praying as I ought. God conform my life in to your image. Give me the grace to loose my life in You and in prayer. Take EVERY thought of mine and make them Yours.1 Kings 8:57, 58 "May the LORD our God be with us, as He was with our fathers. May He not leave us nor forsake us, that He may incline our hearts to Himself, to walk in all His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, which He commanded our fathers."We are all in the school of God. There are different grades in this school. What ever grade we may be in let us pass the tests. If we fail, we will have to take the test over again in some way. Let us all be conscious of the exams that we are taking and pass.A quote for Keith Daniels Forgiveness sermon."You only have one chance to forgive as Christ forgave. While you are being wronged. Then comes the second chance, the second opportunity. The second best in Christianity to take up the cross and follow Christ; Later. After you have revealed anger and bitterness and self pity and resentment. You know I can tell you how crucified a man is with Christ by how he forgives those who wrong him."Psalm 86:11 "Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.2 Corinthians 12:9 "And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."May we uphold Greg and sermonindex in prayer even more diligently, for spiritual understanding, to be conformed into the image of the Christ.And with the armor of God on, praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints.I remind you all even though you know and are established in the present truth.May Christ’s face sine upon you all.

Here are two addresses for Lars.Do write him a letter.And I especially ask those who are not that very friendly tuned – reconciliation needed and practiced.Intercessors.Network@Comhem.seEPC@COMHEM.SEMark

Thanks Mark,Had thought about that. I don't really see anything here other than love and support for our brother. Maybe we went about it all wrong and could have used the more biblical model as was alluded to. And yet this is a rather 'unorthodox orthodox' 'church' we have here, it seems that we are really in the middle as items are posted publicly and the responses as well. I do hope that the end result is just what the intentions of us all are and that is to just answer the original question, "where is Iwpray".Lets bombard our friend with prayer and love. I ask publicly for forgiveness for not following up on this more diligently and am more than willing to do what is necessary to try and bring resolution and reconciliation to what I still feel is not that difficult to resolve.If anything some of our fumbling about here with words I hope can be overlooked to what many of our hearts are trying to say.We love you brother.

Woah! Seems... I've missed something big here on SI! Hmmm... when brothers and sisters are divided... I feel it's a very sad thing. Who's right isn't the point. We do need to care when we notice a brother or sister missing from regular fellowship. I hope and pray over time, that things will be restored. God is a God of reconciliation and restoration. May the enemy not be given the slighest foothold, on either side!

There are excellent comments on this particular thread. Brother Ron listed some scriptural references on what to do when we have an issue with another.Unfortunately I didn't heed these verses and have had to reexamine my own motives and allow the Holy Spirit to search my own heart.I believe I have conveyed what the Lord laid on my heart to those concerned and I would suggest that you prayerfully ponder the verses that Brother Ron quoted near the beginning of the thread.The Lord has me in a place where I must either learn to humble myself or fall under the governmental hand of God (as Watchman Nee described it). I apologize to any others I may have offended.I pray that each of us take some time and allow the Holy Spirit to examine our own hearts and motives, to ensure that everything we're doing is for the glory of Jesus. Anything less than that would dishonor His name and have no eternal value.God bless you all.

Lars very soberly brought up his concern's about this "article" that Greg Gordon posted:ealier Quote: I grew up in a nearby university city. I preach in churches in the very suburb mentioned – Rosengard. I regularly communicate with prayer groups in the city of Malmo. We are more than able to verify the falsified views presented in this so called news item.at this point, what should have been done is to remove the article IN TOTAL.neilgin1This is a sincere question and not just a quick come-back. Wouldn't that effectively make one man a censor to the whole site?It has been my experience that even people best placed to know don't always have the perfect perspective on any situation. Greg's initial posting with the addition of Lar's comments should have provided sufficient caution to prevent the initial article being accepted as 'infallible'.We sometimes have strong differences but I would be horrified if I thought my opinions would effect a censorship. I have given my reasons, often at length, why I disagree strongly with much of Art Katz preaching, but I would genuinely be horrified if Greg then took Art off the preaching list. In fact, if I thought he might, I would not speak as I have.Having been in positions of authority in many Christian contexts it is always difficult to know what to do when some effectively says 'if you don't do it my way I will leave' but ultimately if God has trusted you with something you have to do as your heart directs while all the time remaining open to what God might be saying through the objector.I have often been tempted to withdraw from SI. Perhaps that might surprise some. But, contrary to public opinion, bible-teachers do not have hides like rhinoceros. Spurgeon once commented 'a kick which would scarce move a donkey will often kill a preacher'. This philosophy of Anthony Norris Groves has been my gentle rebuke again and again.what a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large, that He can help whenever He sees some good thing; whereas man withdraws, because he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his own self-love in the little scheme he had set up as perfection.So often my temptation to abandon this group or that has been because they would not conform to the little scheme my self love had set up as perfection. What I was being tempted to do was to say 'if I can't be god here, I'm leaving' Most people with strong opinions will be tempted along this line sooner or later.

I have often been tempted to withdraw from SI. Perhaps that might surprise some. But, contrary to public opinion, bible-teachers do not have hides like rhinoceros. Spurgeon once commented 'a kick which would scarce move a donkey will often kill a preacher'. I agree. There are times when the conversations can actually begin to 'wear you down' (vex as the AV calls it). But I must admit, all of the conflict I have felt and dealt with has made me a better Christian and forced me to 'grow up' in Christ. I regret some of the things that happened, but I do not regret the results. I am a better Christian today, I believe, than when I first arrived.Moreover, I want to say that nothing that I have seen happening here would warrant a biblical mandate for withdrawing fellowship. God never allows His children to split over such matters. Withdrawing fellowship is a very serious move to make and is reserved for those that you feel are actively involved in damnable sins. This is not the case here. As for the original article it is found on Fox News web site. There are two videos that go with and one shows a police officer saying the very things quoted in the article. If that was staged, it was the officer on the streets that lied. The article merely quotes him. You can watch the video here. If I lived in Malmo, I would be asking for prayer. It is not a matter of prejudice, it is amatter of understanding the volitility of the situation. God Bless,-Robert

I don't know if there is anything more noble than just plain heartfelt honesty.Thank you Ron, Robert.Indeed it is true that I have learned more here in every conversation that sparks another thought or inquiry into what this life in Christ is all about.Can it be better said than this?:I regret some of the things that happened, but I do not regret the results. I am a better Christian today, I believe, than when I first arrived.To be able to get at the truth it would seem that there has to be some digging and uncovering, looking at things from more than one perspective. If we are to be teachable and what instantly comes to mind is Psalm 119, how many times is "teach me" used? And how many times I could never tell that I go away from here with something to think about, something that would challenge a preconceived thought, that sense of "wow, had never really thought about that".And to really be redundant and stress the point, that so many of us are really poor word-smiths, but I hope we are making some progress in giving expression and more so that we can all try and look beyond the sometimes bumbling words to what lies behind it all.One of the curse/blessings here, depending on how you want to look at it, is that there is a record to look back at. Second glances at later times are often very revealing; "Did I really say that?""What was I thinking?"...even from this thread some of the things I wrote come back and make me think "I need to to be more prayerful and careful, maybe I really need to just shut up" :-) And personally I am glad for these 'questionings' in regards to the sermons and their particular preachers. I love Art Katz for instance for giving a perspective that I had never heard before. At first I thought he was just bizarre compared to what I had been used to hearing, that rather strange 'language' that often is used by T.A. Sparks and our friend Lars. "Priestly" comes to mind. As time went on my appreciation grew for the insight into many things from these men of God. Primarily the challenges in the realm of "The Spirit of Truth" and the effect that had on the thoughts we keep in our heads, our true motives..."Ye have heard it was said...but I say unto you..." But as far as Mr. Katz's eschatology goes, I don't have the foggiest idea and appreciate the challenges to that line of thinking, it's nothing against the man and I certainly picked that up from our brother Ron who has been acquainted with him from what I recall. I am still in the "pan" camp on that whole thing, he could be right for all I know or a million miles off base.But I do think that is the point and if there is anything that can't be tolerated around here it's assaults on the brethren for 'crimes of the conscious' if I could put it that way. It's unnecessary and lacks the unity that we should have in the Body. We don't have to compromise on truth to be at peace with one another only to humble ourselves and admit our failings when they occur asking for forgiveness and esteeming each other as more important than ourselves.I praise God for you all.

This is the latest article by Lars Widerberg, as sent to all the Networkers.I pass it on as he always recommendsMarkA praying heart, ministering to the LordBy Lars WiderbergReading: Matthew 9:36-38To sit down often to pray and to listen to the Lord allows you to begin understanding the times. To bring oneself to halt for the sake of payer opens the eyes to see and behold as the Lord beholds. The habit of stopping regularly and often for prayer will secure a sensitive heart. If you pray often you will become an asset to the Kingdom. When he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them. . . A heart, at any moment, continuously opening for the warmest feeling of distress and pity for the suffering and misfortune of man. A heart absorbed, shaped and sharpened by Heaven’s, by the Father’s tenderness and lovingkindness. A heavenly heart on display at its brightest.When he saw the multitudes. . . Overpowered, demolished and left desolate by sweeping diseases of unknown origin. Purchased and violated; likened to impersonal forces of the market place, likened to goods and to cattle led to slaughter. Overshadowed and overtaken by a fierce flooding of vain and unclean reasoning. No escaping battering hailstorms of propaganda. No peace; all is vanity and vexation of spirit. Nothing to eat, no end to the hunger deep within. No shepherd to take the flock to green pastures.Can anyone be found out there who has learned to see the multitudes the way Heaven beholds them? Anyone preparing himself to be alerted and hurt by the flow of pictures and impressions in the way Heaven is hurt. Who apprehends and comprehends the distress and calamities the way the Father does? Has anyone made himself ready to be brought into a prayer life which supports the purposes of the Lord? Are we, perhaps, expecting a harvest of a different kind compared to what the Lord is looking forward to? Are we longing for a different king of satisfaction compared to the one which the Lord has prepared through the cross and His Spirit? The Kingdom does not come effortlessly and without pain.True blessedness will be given to a heart which hungers and thirsts for righteousness. True blessedness is a substantial fact among those who walk along paths of reconciliation, among the peacemakers. Joy and gladness come in full measure to those who are pure in heart; they shall see God. The habit of stopping regularly and often for prayer will secure a sensitive heart. To bring oneself to halt for the sake of payer opens the eyes to see and behold as the Lord beholds. The one who prays often learns to love the way the Lord loves.The harvest of the Father is defined in terms of a people who have come to maturity in regards to affection and solicitude during these last days when love grows cold and barren. The harvest He expects to be able to gather consists of hearts which have been taken through a thorough change and development to be able to hold eternal, vital, altogether good and godly life. The ingathering of the Lord is done in the inward parts of man; assorted, first class, even superior class, perfectly prepared and presented worship in spirit and in truth.Prayer, any kind of prayer which reaches Heaven; ministry, any kind of heavenly induced ministry holds a priestly attitude, a priestly approach at its core. Intercession mirrors the mind of the Shepherd. Praying and prayer focuses the welfare of the sheep. Cold-hearted and narrow-minded calculation does not fit in a prayer chamber. Sheep does not exist for the benefit of the shepherd. Shepherds are made and sent for the welfare of the sheep. A true emissary sent with a genuine message considers the Father’s business only, never his own.A leader standing up to gather sheep may never give in to the arousal and stimulus towards self-approval and self-gratification. The Lord counts on harvesting according to the measures of Heaven. The Lord expects sheep to be handled according to the ways of Heaven. The harvest will never lend itself to our agendas. The harvest is the Lord’s – a praying for the gathering of that harvest, and for harvesters, will find answers secured. The habit of stopping regularly and often for prayer will secure a sensitive heart. The habit of pausing regularly and often for prayer will produce a priestly attitude. The habit of stepping aside regularly and often for prayer, will bring an understanding of the things belonging to the harvest of the Lord. Those who give themselves to prayer will be able to give their hearts to sheep which strays without shepherds.The habit of pausing regularly and often for prayer creates time and space in this world for more praying and for a priestly mindset. This habit alone will create much praying for the recapturing, the recovering of prayer in general among Christians. The one who has begun to pray often will become painfully aware of the lack of substantial prayer in our churches and Christian gatherings. The dear saints who have begun to pray often are the ones who prepares for the harvest of the Lord, and for Him to serve at tables among those who hunger and thirst for spiritual food and drink. The dear saints who have begun to pray often are the ones who bring forth shepherds to lead and to minister to battered and bruised sheep. The intercession needed in this late hour concentrates and focuses on the vindication of the Lord, on the ways of the Lord, on the role of the shepherd, on the priestliness which allows for a substantial harvest in terms of inner, spiritual values.

Public confession is a hard thing....and unnecessary.

Its social gospel all over again, this time from the right.neilgin1There are some aspects of this which has now been around for a few decades. The Lausanne Conference (1974) was regarded as an exciting opportunity for evangelicals to make joint statements; it was viewed as a Church Council not dissimilar from the post-apostolic councils which produced the creeds. The conference was lauded by the great and famous. It produced its own statements which has seeped into the expectations of much of evangelical Christianity.There was an emphasis on social action which was really quite a watershed. They produced this statement. 5. CHRISTIAN SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITYWe affirm that God is both the Creator and the Judge of all men. We therefore should share his concern for justice and reconciliation throughout human society and for the liberation of men and women from every kind of oppression. Because men and women are made in the image of God, every person, regardless of race, religion, colour, culture, class, sex or age, has an intrinsic dignity because of which he or she should be respected and served, not exploited. Here too we express penitence both for our neglect and for having sometimes regarded evangelism and social concern as mutually exclusive. Although reconciliation with other people is not reconciliation with God, nor is social action evangelism, nor is political liberation salvation, nevertheless we affirm that evangelism and socio-political involvement are both part of our Christian duty. For both are necessary expressions of our doctrines of God and man, our love for our neighbour and our obedience to Jesus Christ. The message of salvation implies also a message of judgment upon every form of alienation, oppression and discrimination, and we should not be afraid to denounce evil and injustice wherever they exist. When people receive Christ they are born again into his kingdom and must seek not only to exhibit but also to spread its righteousness in the midst of an unrighteous world. The salvation we claim should be transforming us in the totality of our personal and social responsibilities. Faith without works is dead.(Acts 17:26,31; Gen. 18:25; Isa. 1:17; Psa. 45:7; Gen. 1:26,27; Jas. 3:9; Lev. 19:18; Luke 6:27,35; Jas. 2:14-26; Joh. 3:3,5; Matt. 5:20; 6:33; II Cor. 3:18; Jas. 2:20) This changed the agenda for many evangelicals and the concept that we affirm that evangelism and socio-political involvement are both part of our Christian duty. became the driving force of the last 30 years of evangelicalism.There is no New Testament biblical basis for the statement that 'socio-political involvement' is part of our Christian duty. My contention has always been that the church is called to be the world's conscience not its government and not its social programme.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal ...If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing ... If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing ...Love is patient ...Love is kind ... It does not envy ...It does not boast ...It is not proud ...It is not rude ... it is not selfseeking ... It is not easily angered ... It keeps no record of wrongs ...Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth ...Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres ...Love never fails ...But where there are prophecies, they will cease ...Where there are tongues, they will be stilled ...Where there is knowledge, it will pass away ...For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears ...When I was a child, I talked like a child ...I thought like a child ...I reasoned like a child ... When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me ...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is ...L-O-V-E ... * John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. * John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” * Romans 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. * Romans 13:8 [Love, for the Day is Near] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. * Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature [ Or the flesh; also in verses 16, 17, 19 and 24] ; rather, serve one another in love. * Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. * Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. * 1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. [ Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] * 1 Peter 3:8 [Suffering for Doing Good] Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. * 1 Peter 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.All we need is (Christ type) love, love ... (Christ type) love is all we need ... Amen

Amen, Rahman.1Co 13:13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

This quote came from a book I just finished, "The Heavenly Man." It can be found on the "Back to Jerusalem," website."In China, Christians are persecuted with beatings and imprisonment. In the West, Christians are persecuted by the words of other Christians." This new kind of spiritual persecution was no easier than physical persecution in China, just different." page 309Just a thought.In ChristJeff

I understand what you are saying but love still remains.Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets. There's some attitude change to do to be able to obey."In the West, Christians are persecuted by the words of other Christians."What exactly do you mean by that ? Is it Christians vilifying Christians or christians vilifying Christians or christians vilifying christians ? or something else ? jouko

Hi Bro. Jeff,God has been dealing strongly with me on this topic and has convicted me and cautioned me greatly. It begins with this passage; But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. (Galatians 5:15) We need to ask ourselves what is feeding our zeal for the things of God. We should be allowing the Holy Spirit to feed it with the word of God and the zeal that comes from the indwelling fullness of the Spirit. But sometimes it becomes a situation where there are disagreements or shortcomings among our fellow brethren and instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to direct us, in how to handle the situation we begin to bite and devour the persons in question. It becomes then a source of feeding our zeal for God; and that, by ripping someone to shreads. That is no way to get yourself fired up for God! I have seen it happen with the so-called "Heresy Hunters." It seems that they lived to rip the next heretic apart. I have had to guard my own heart from this and have repented publically for it and will again right now! I heard a story once that in the northern tundra areas where wolves are a menace that to deal with them men would bury knives with the blade sticking up. They added a drop of blood to it so the animal would taste it and continue until dead. that taste of 'blood' (as it were) that sport of biting and devouring one another, is an abominable thing. We need to seek the Holy Spirit and get into the word until we can rightly handle these things Spiritually. Like the 4 lepers that crossed over to the enemies camp, we need to cross over ourselves. There are people inside 'the camp' biting and devouring each other because of the famine of hearing the words of the LORD that is in the west. This sort of Spiritual cannibalism must stop. We have to cease 'feeding' on lukewarm Christians and preachers. We have to stop devouring those who oppose themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to 'feed' our zeal. Then and only then will be be in a place to see them changed. Otherwise all we are going to do is consume them. (Galatians 5:15b)God Bless,-Robert

We need to ask ourselves what is feeding our zeal for the things of God. We should be allowing the Holy Spirit to feed it with the word of God and the zeal that comes from the indwelling fullness of the Spirit. But sometimes it becomes a situation where there are disagreements or shortcomings among our fellow brethren and instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to direct us, in how to handle the situation we begin to bite and devour the persons in question. We have to cease 'feeding' on lukewarm Christians and preachers. We have to stop devouring those who oppose themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to 'feed' our zeal. Then and only then will be be in a place to see them changed. Otherwise all we are going to do is consume them. (Galatians 5:15b)Robert, thank you so much for posting this. I am really struggling in this area right now and needed to read your post. Blessings..........Cindy

I think Robert has hit on an excellent point. One where many mature Christians need to work as well. An excellent article about this is Zeal:Love Ablaze by Leonard Ravenhill. "This is true zeal for God - to know Him and love Him with a deep and consuming love, and to serve others in the same way we would serve Jesus. Anything else is an imitation."-L.RavenhillIn His love, Chanin

Br. Jouko wrote:What exactly do you mean by that ? Is it Christians vilifying Christians or christians vilifying Christians or christians vilifying christians ? or something else ? Brother Robert, your illustration of the knife and the wolf paint a graphic picture of the futility of life when we fail to seek Him. Thankyou. Br Yun wrote on page 312:"The people who really suffer are those who never experience God's presence. The way to have God's presence is by walking through hardship and suffering---the way of the cross. You may not be beaten or imprisoned for your faith, but I am convinced each Christian will still have a cross to bear in his or her life. In the West it may be ridicule, slander, or rejection. When you're faced with such trials, the key is not to run from them or fight them, but to embrace them as friends. When you do this you'll not fail to experience God's presence and help." In ChristJeff

Thanks Jeff.In the preceeding pages Bro Yun writes about a dream he had while on a speaking tour in Canada. He himself writes the dream to be about a demon and how it is to impact the tour. "First, like the rooster in my dream, we'll meet with a loud and aggressive reaction. Later, a seductive spirit will try to reason with us, pleading its innocence and trying to stop our ministry for the Lord through lies and deceit." page 306. Further on in the pages a "Christian journalist", ( I don't know if a Christian would do these kind of things if he indeed is a Christian with a capital C ) anyway, as far as I can see writes a slanderous article, ( I call it slanderous as it seems that he can't substantiate the accusations made by him or he has been misled to believe the things ) which further on is also impacting on Bro Yun's tour in many ways. "In the days after this attack, which appears to have been carefully timed to coincide with the start of our Canadian preaching trip, I struggled with this new form of persecution" page 308I wonder if the Christian journalist was called a Christian due to him being a westerner or if he indeed was a true Christian ? I believe it is dangerous to say that Christians persecute other Christians with words in the west as any criticism of substance would be deemed un-necessary or un-Christian when it indeed could be true defence by a shepherd protecting the flock from the wolf that comes in sheeps clothing and is there to destroy. I don't know if this journalist was a Christian, but from what I read it certainly is very un-Christ like. If he would have contacted Bro Yun himself to clarify he would have done the right thing according to the Bible as has been discussed in an another thread. The word of God does not tell us that it will be a dance on roses while here, no, it says the opposite.Act 3:18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. Act 5:41 They therefore departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the Name. Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.1Pe 4:16 but if a man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this name. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? Pro 10:20 The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver: The heart of the wicked is little worth.I also believe it to be necessary to use a comment out of something in context so as not to change the meaning of the message. There is a lot of warnings from true Christians that have value but can be doomed and deemed un-necessary just because we are not supposed to discern and criticise unduly or rock the boat. As Bro Yun's trip continued it seems the Lord moved powerfully. Finally from page 313."The world can do nothing to a Christian who has no fear of man".jouko