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Poll: 2 in 5 Evangelical Leaders Drink Alcohol

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sermonindex


Forty percent of evangelical leaders said they "socially drink alcohol," according to a new monthly poll.

Many of them added that they only drink "in moderation," "on special occasion," or "infrequently." And they noted that they do so only with those who share similar views on alcohol consumption.

The poll, released Thursday, was based on responses from the Board of Directors of the National Association of Evangelicals, including the CEOs of denominations and representatives of a broad array of evangelical organizations.
Among the majority who said they did not consume alcohol, the common reason for abstinence was not because they believe it is sinful to drink. ...

read more: http://bit.ly/rra2NW

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White_Stone

What relevance does this 'poll' have in my life? Does it change my walk with Jesus?

I suspect this is just another thread started only to create website traffic.

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brothergary

by bible says elders should not be givern to any wine

what does that mean

does that mean they should not drink

or does that mean they should not be addicted to any wine

most people that i know who drink like this scocialy

are addictted and givern in some way to alcohol

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sermonindex

What is the infatuation with alcohol. I think we have already concluded that drinking alcohol is not a sin. What about a poll on gossip or judging our neighbor according to the flesh.

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sermonindex

Here is a "novel" thought:

Ok, so most would agree that the New Covenant includes being set free from sin, right? Which really means we are delivered from lie about God and now walk in the light of His Love. We are not just delivered from the punishment of sin but also the power of sin...are you trackin'

So, we know that the fulfillment of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit coming to live inside His Church, both individually and corporately. God now dwells in men. That's you, that's me...if you are a believer.

Well, we also know that part of the fruit of this new relationship is Self-Control.
What if, because of this new relationship we have with God, a man could live with Self-Control in every area of his life. He could eat, drink, work, play, sleep, participate in online religious forums, etc. with complete self-control. He would never over-indulge because the Holy Spirit now lives in Him and he is learning to abide in that relationship.

Is that possible? I think its more than possible, it is a promise of God.

Now, I think it wise, that instead of ripping brothers or sisters in Christ who do lawful things which you do not approve of, we should look at our own lives and see where we over-indulge.

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sermonindex

Isn't it possible that digging up possible infractions in another's private life could be improperly judging your brother after your own self righteousness? Is this your mission....or could it be that God desired you to edify your "weaker" brother....and wash his feet? If he is in sin...remember....Mercy overcomes judgment...and that IS your ministry to your brother...as it was given to you.

This seems to be the greater sin, of condemning another after your set of right law...and justifying yours.This is surely the one sin Jesus condemned as odious in His eyes, even above the carnality of another.

2."The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6. And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7. And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8. !!!!!!But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren!!!!!!

9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18. And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20. Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38. 8Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"

Draw a circle on the ground. Step inside of it, and present yourself as a lover of the God you profess. This is wise...while you put away the pointing of the finger.

Isaiah 58:"Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, "Here I am!" If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity."

Try heartfelt intercession.

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sermonindex

Who exactly are you speaking to Tom?

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sermonindex

Rom 14:21,22 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.


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brothergary

even if some does have some blode claim
that they posses 100 percent self control

ihavent met them yet

paull said
have that faith before god
and thenk of you weaker brethern
which is much more important then your liberty
and boasting in your liberity being general when i say that


this topic was about elders drinking

what does the bible say about elders regarding this

this is not about there liberty

we ought to bare the scruples of the weak paull said

as jesus is god posted

O
Oracio

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
"Rom 14:21,22 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Amen. That's my two cents on this issue. Here in America the world associates drinking beer and wine with drunkenness. In other countries I've heard it's different. In the other thread someone had quoted Spurgeon defending his cigars. But Spurgeon ended up quiting afterward due to stumbling others. Even though in and of itself drinking without getting drunk may not be a sin, if you stumble someone because of it, it IS a sin.


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rjennings

While I will confess my disdain for alcohol the larger question is not whether we should or should not drink but rather why? We can devote much attention towards finding the boundary between grace and sin when our entire focus should be towards pressing into the holiness of God at which time the boundaries become less important.

I taught teenagers at church early Sunday mornings and they were sluggish and inattentive so I decided to invest in Nerf guns and spent the first few minutes warring it out to get the juices flowing which helped but it didn't take long for the question to arise whether it was appropriate to bring Nerf guns into church. I responded "there will be no need for Nerf guns when revival comes. Will you please pray for revival"?

I Cor 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

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ginnyrose

Exactly how does recreational use of alcohol bring glory to God? Scripture tells us that "whatsoever we do, do all to the honor and glory of God."

BTW, Scripture does not forbid a person from shooting himself in the foot - I do not know of any, so why not defend it?

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mguldner

Everything is permissable but not everything is profitable, right? :)

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sermonindex

Brothergary said:

by bible says elders should not be givern to any wine

what does that mean

does that mean they should not drink

or does that mean they should not be addicted to any wine

most people that i know who drink like this scocialy

are addictted and givern in some way to alcohol

Gary... go back and read your Bible again, thats not what it says. You are referring to 1 Timothy 3:8, and what it actually says is:

"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to MUCH wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;"

If your version says what you say it says... throw it out, it's wrong. I have not been able to find a version that says that.

Not disagreeing with your point, but if you say the Bible says something it doesnt say... I'm gonna get up your nose, brother.

Krispy

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sermonindex

So while all things are permissable, not all things are beneficial.

Let me ask you folks... which one of you would stand in the village square and proclaim the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ... with a Bud Lite in your hand?

Just curious.

And if you wouldn't (those who defend your Christian liberty strongly), please explain why not.

Krispy

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mguldner

It maybe wise to define Christian Liberities.

We are we liberated from should be the true question, what did Christ save us from? Hell? No the very beginning of Matthew tells us His purpose and what He saves us from Matthew 1:21 "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save His people from their Sins."

Pretty clear, If we are risen with Christ aren't we also suppose to have died with Christ on the cross? This includes our selfish ambition and will and our lusts. Would this be so for some, its likely.

You also wouldn't want to preach the Gospel of Christ with a Bud Light in your hand because you would likely cause a brother to stumble, what if someone was a recovering alcoholic and by Christ was slowly being freed from the gripes of this struggle and then they see you exhorting the Word with a beer in hand, if they are a baby Christian they may think its quite alright for Christians to drink and thus fall back into alcoholism.

Paul made it clear he gave up many rights for the sake of his brothers who were weaker in faith and understanding of Grace and "Christian Liberities"

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sermonindex

Exactly, brother... instead of defending our liberties and enjoying the exercising thereof... the Biblical example is giving up your liberties for the sake of others. Sacrificing your liberties.

The prevailing attitude, even on this forum, is: Dont tell me what to do! I have liberty!

Thats a sinful and unbiblical attitude. It's rebellion, franky. It's not motivated by love, it's motivated by love of self.

Krispy

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ChrisJD

"I taught teenagers at church early Sunday mornings and they were sluggish and inattentive so I decided to invest in Nerf guns and spent the first few minutes warring it out to get the juices flowing which helped but it didn't take long for the question to arise whether it was appropriate to bring Nerf guns into church. I responded "there will be no need for Nerf guns when revival comes. Will you please pray for revival"?"


I really appreciated what you shared. Thanks.

T
turn

Sobriety is sensible and Scriptural.

Nevertheless, at the wedding at Cana (John 2), Jesus turned water into wine and not into pasteurized, grape juice.

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twayneb

I believe Krispy has it right. The issue is not whether it is Biblically permissive for a Christian to consume a beverage that is alcoholic. How many have used nyquil or the equivalent when you had a really bad cold? The issue is sacrificial love for our brothers. Perhaps it is permissible but for me I will never knowingly partake. Why? I don't ever want to be the reason for a weaker brother stumbling and falling or for a man rejecting Christ because he sees what he perceives to be a Christian partaking of a sinful thing. I would rather not partake. I have studied this issue in depth several times. One cannot make a Biblical case that it is forbidden. I do believe though that one can ABSOLUTELY make a Biblical case as well as a culturally significant case (for those in the USA) that a Christian should abstain in the light of our witness and our love for our brethren.

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Lovefirst

When I sit down at The Marriage Supper of the Lamb, I will have some wine with my Lord Jesus Christ. I can't imagine I'll be able to drink or eat but maybe I will... He will be so beautiful!

When I sit down and spend time with my wife, maybe at some restaurant or maybe at home, I will drink wine with her. I love her very much!

Why is this even relevant? How many of you are over weight? Shouldn't you not eat so much food since you are destroying your body and putting your spirit under a load it cannot continue to carry? But you don't drink alcohol right?

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KingJimmy

You aren't spiritual if you drink wine. Likewise, you aren't spiritual if you refrain from drinking wine. Wine is just that... wine. Whatever you do, in whatever you eat or drink, do it unto the Lord.

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sermonindex

Be like a deacon and have self-control. Don't be given to much wine.

1 Timothy 3:8

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

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ginnyrose

So, more preachers, deacons are drinking - even 'socially'...maybe this is why you have so many experiencing too many moral failure - they get carried away with their 'moderate' drinking, lose all moral restraints and hook up with the prettiest broad around.

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KingJimmy

I don't think alcohol is probably anymore to blame than cornbread and sweet tea. Jesus had no moral failures, yet he drank and ate enough with shady people to raise the eyebrows of the religious crowd of his day. If people are failing morally, it's because they are failed spiritually. Good trees produce good fruit, bad trees bad fruit. If you want to change the fruit, change the tree.

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ginnyrose

Jimmy,

Alcohol has the reputation of clouding a person's moral judgement - I have heard too many testimonies declaring this fact. There are many people in prison because of drug or alcohol abuse. And too many single girls at Crises Pregnancy Centers who partied with alcohol...

Granted, abstaining from alcohol will not impart holiness, but neither will alcohol enhance it either - it does put a person at risk because he/she just might over-indulge and do something they normally would not have.

It would be very interesting to know how many times alcohol was involved in so many of these preachers' moral failures/sin.

K
KingJimmy

A friend of mine who was very much a raging drunk for many years once told me that alcohol never caused her to make bad moral decisions. It just gave her an excuse to make them. As drunk as she became, she said she never lost her ability to make her own decision. Granted, her ability to reason was often greatly impaired. Maybe that is not everybody's experience. But she said it personally just made her more likely to do what she already wanted to do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is not a danger to abusing alcohol. But speaking as one who has had a few casual drinks over the years, from my own personal experience I will say it takes much more than one or two drinks for the average person to get so hammered that they start making bad moral decisions. I've never been drunk, or anywhere close to it.

But frankly, in my opinion, if somebody is drunk, it is usually not an accident. A drunk person is usually such because they are entirely careless to begin with, or they set out to get drunk. I'd say most people don't get drunk on accident. If you get drunk, it's probably because you were entirely careless in your use of alcohol, or you decided you were going to drink to the point of getting drunk to begin with.

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sermonindex

But just as he who called you is holy so be holy in all you do, for it is written "Be holy because I am holy."

Is this not the issur? Biblical holiness. Sanctification. This started out as a thread with 2 out of every 5 pastors who drank alcohol. Granted socially or in moderation. Granted that the Bible not condemn the drinking of alcohol but only drunkenness.

But saints we live in a dark world that is only getting darker by the minute. Demonic activity is on the increase. Alcohol, drugs, porn, etc. is on the increase and infiltrating the church. Our spiritual leaders are getting addicted to porn. So ehen we hear of evangelical pastors who drink socially should this not be a cause for concern. Yet we want to debate this as Christian liberty or being all things to all men to win them to Christ or a new cool way to be reformed.

In the end of days wickedness will be on the increase. God is calling forth a remnant to be holy. Jesus prayed in John 17 that his own would be sanctified in truth. In Revelation 18:4 the cry is for the people of God to come out of Babylon so that they would not share in her sins and God's subsequent judgment of Babylon. I take Babylon to mean the world system.

It seems on these threads that discuss alcohol instead of discussing our freedom to drink, what of our freedom to be holy and separate as unto him.

Submitted in Christ by Blaine Scogin

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KingJimmy

Choosing to abstain from the moderate use of alcohol is no more a commitment to holiness than choosing to abstain from soda or chocolate. As Paul said in Colossians, theologies that involve, "touch not, taste not, handle not" are not in anyway useful to real holiness. Such is merely flesh fighting against flesh. Such a philosophy appears to have a wisdom in its saying, but Paul says they are of no value whatsoever against fleshly indulgence. Instead, such is "self-made religion" (NASB), and in keeping with the "elementary principles of the world." (NASB) Such a theology will, in fact, only make one all the more carnal. (See Colossians 2:20-23)

I think we are easily persuaded by such "wisdom," because we don't truly understand what Biblical holiness is. We have a tendency to think of holiness as being found in the keeping of maxims, principles, and laws. When in truth, holiness is a gift and state of being supernaturally granted by God, to a person who has been declared righteous by God. And having been declared righteous by God, a transformation has taken place by which a bad tree was made into a good, and a different sort of fruit was yielded. Life was breathed into a dead soul, and a resurrection has taken place. We are "different" and "holy" because we are a people from the future, living in light of eternity, as if the end of the world has already taken place.

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sermonindex

Brother in all due respect I must take issue with the first part of your post. You said choosing to abstain from the moderate use of alcohol is no more of a committment to holiness than abstaining from soda or chocolate. Ok. Let's talk about that. You used the word .'choosing''. If I make a conscience choice inspired by the Holy Spirit to be holy in God's presence then that concience choice will result in certain actions. Those actions will require choices. I will choose in the course of holiness to watch the company I keep, what comes in the eargate and eyegate, what comes in and goes out of the mouthgate. These are choices that are made under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

To say that one choosing to abstain from alcohol is not a committment to Biblical holiness is not correct. If I choose to not go to an X-rated movie or go to a strip club is that not committment to holinrss? Particularly if the Spirit in me is leading to not make those choices that woukd grieve him.

The book of Romans in chapter 6 gives me and every believer a choice. The choice is to yield our bodies to wickedness or to righteousness. If we give our bodies to righteouness then that is a choice of holiness. That choice will lead to choose in courses of action that line up with righteousness. I hope this makes sense.

I am not talking about legalism but the spiritual fruit of self control. Self control that enables one to carry out godly decisions made under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Blaine

L
Lysa

KingJimmy wrote:
A friend of mine who was very much a raging drunk for many years once told me that alcohol never caused her to make bad moral decisions. It just gave her an excuse to make them.

But frankly, in my opinion, if somebody is drunk, it is usually not an accident.


As a previous drunk myself, I can attest to the truth of these two statements.


Ginnyrose wrote:
It would be very interesting to know how many times alcohol was involved in so many of these preachers' moral failures/sin.

Like the ‘which came first’ argument, I believe the moral failure came first paving the way for the alcohol or drug abuse.

No one wakes up one day and decides to backslide, it has a root cause of sin in the heart of the Christian. It is in my humble opinion that alcohol is not the root cause of sin in the heart of a Christian.

God bless,
Lisa

J
JB1968

Sin is so easily explained away. Maybe this is another reason revival escapes the church. Alcohol is a spirit that is not of God.

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sermonindex

It seems that the threads that deal with alcohol and sex have a longer life in this forum than those threads that speak of revival, prayer, or scripture reading. But then I was told this is a forum. But then maybe it is my imagination.

Blaine

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sermonindex

KingJimmy wrote:
A friend of mine who was very much a raging drunk for many years once told me that alcohol never caused her to make bad moral decisions. It just gave her an excuse to make them.

But frankly, in my opinion, if somebody is drunk, it is usually not an accident.

Lysa wrote:
As a previous drunk myself, I can attest to the truth of these two statements.

I can add another plus one to these statements as a previous drunk myself. Alcohol only brought out and amplified what was lurking in the deeper recesses of my heart to begin with.

I
istina

there are several reason why people drink alcohol, one is for cultural reason, they grew up with a habit to drink some with a meal, it is like eating some kind of food to them, addiction is not strong and they can be fine without it and see nothing wrong with it.
The other reason which is more common which is for fun, to be glad, we can judge people for that but if they cannot find their way to joy in the Lord, it would be not easy for them to obtain from it for a long time.
But there is one more very important reason which we must pay attention to, when peole drink for the comfort out of despair, they cannot get rid of pain by any other means, that is very sorrowful situation. But we must be mercyful to such brothers and sisters, because that means they suffer and their spirit is weaker then their body which is the case of many other Christians who find other less "controversial" ways to ease the pain. Some talk to a friend, some play sports, some read, some fish. But there are many people who have been broken by life and are crushed daily at the work place because of unhuman labour conditions, who are not loved and appreciated because of low income and some physical disabilities or rejection. These dear peopel have faith but they are oo weak to overcome that pain that grip their hearts/ But often they are the most generous and ready to help and share what they have much easier then others who never drink. So where is Jesus?
I believe we must understand the reason why the person driks an dminister if we can to find a better way which is the Holy Spirit but if not at least we must be compassionate on them and never proud of our freedom because we might also have done the same if we were in their shoes.

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