Communion question

I don`t partake of the Jewish outward ceremony. Here is why;

"The two suppers of Christ;

1) the last supper in the same night that he was betrayed, before he was crucified; and the supper after he was risen, which he calls people to in Rev 3:20, “To hear his voice, and open the door, and he will sup with them, and they shall sup with him.”

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit's Unquenchable Fire vs. Outward Water

Likewise, something concerning Christ, the resurrection of the just and unjust.

And also, concerning the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, which smote the image. Dan 2.

And concerning Christ, the vine, and the Jews, how that God planted them a noble vine, but they degenerated, and destroyed the Lord's servants, and son, that came to look for fruits.

It is said in Mat 26:26-30, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:16-20, 1 Cor 11:23-26, ‘In the same night that Christ was betrayed, he took the bread and the cup, and said, As often as you do eat this bread, and drink this cup, do it in remembrance of me; and you do show forth the Lord's death until he come.’ And Christ said, ‘I say unto you, from now on I will drink no more of this fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.’ And Christ said, when he was at his last supper, when he was betrayed, before he was crucified, ‘I say unto you, (namely, his disciples), I will not any more eat thereof, (namely, of the bread of the passover), until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.’

Now mark, the fruit of the vine, and the bread which Christ broke at his last supper, and gave to his disciples in the same night that he was betrayed, before he was crucified, which they were to take in remembrance of his death, and show forth his death until he came; that after they had eat of that outward bread, and drunk of that outward cup, the fruit of the vine, which he gave to his disciples, from now on he would eat no more thereof, (namely, the bread), until it was fulfilled in the kingdom of God, and drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until the day that he drink it new in the kingdom of God, (Mat 26, Mark 14), as Christ said this unto his disciples, at his last supper, before he was crucified. But after Christ was crucified, buried, and rose again, he ate and drank again with them, as you may see in these scriptures following, which fulfilled his own words, as in Luke 24:30. ‘And it came to pass as Jesus sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to them,’ namely, to some of his disciples; and they said unto others of them, ‘the Lord is come; and he was known to them by breaking of bread,’ as in Luke 24:35. And in Luke 24:41-43, Jesus appeared unto his disciples again, and he said unto them, ‘Have you any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and honey-comb, and he took it, and did ate before them; and he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled.’

And again, Jesus said unto his disciples, after he was risen, John 21:5,9. ‘Children, have you any meat?’ They answered, no. And as soon as his disciples had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread; and Jesus said unto them, ‘Come and dine;’ and Jesus took bread, and gave to them, and fish likewise. And this was the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead, as in John 21:12-14. And Christ, after he had risen from the dead, told his disciples, ‘All power in heaven and earth was given unto him.’ And Christ said unto his disciples whom he sent forth to preach, before he was crucified, ‘Verily, I say unto you, you shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, until the son of man is come.’ Mat 10:23.

And again, Christ said unto his disciples, ‘I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.’ And again, Christ said, ‘Verily, I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.’ Mat 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27.

And the apostle said, Acts 10:41, that they did ‘eat and drink with Christ, after that God had raised him up from the dead.’ And so they fulfilled Christ's words, that he would eat no more of the bread, nor drink of the fruit of the vine, until he drank it new with them in the kingdom of God. Mark 14:25. And again, Christ said, ‘There are some standing here, who shall not taste of death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom and power.’ Mat 16:28. And was not this fulfilled after Christ was risen, when he said, ‘All power in heaven and earth is given unto me.’ Then did not he come in power, and did not the disciples see him in his kingdom, after his resurrection?

And John, he that was one of Christ's beloved disciples, that leaned upon his breast in the same night that Christ was betrayed, before he was crucified, did not John then take the elements of bread and wine at that last supper? And was not John one of the disciples that did not taste death until he saw Christ come in the kingdom of his Father with power,* when Christ said, ‘All power in heaven and earth is given unto me?’ And was not John one of the disciples that did eat and drink with Christ after he was risen? And after that Christ was ascended, and sat at the right hand of God, and the churches were gathered, as yet they were not come off many outward elementary things. And did not Christ send John, after he was ascended, to call the church to another supper, and said, ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man will hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me; he that has an ear to hear, let him hear what the spirit said unto the churches.’

*[Christ came in power. Christ was undoubtedly in the Kingdom after his resurrection and after he had ascended and been glorified, but the disciples were not in the kingdom yet. They had received the Holy Spirit, but Jesus had not returned as he had promised. After Jesus had been resurrected, and when he was eating fish and bread with them on the seashore, Jesus answered Peter’s question as to what would happen to John: "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” So Jesus, after the resurrection, and after he had ascended and been glorified, said his “return” was still to happen in the future.

After he was resurrected, his disciples asked, was the Kingdom to be established then? and he said, "it is not for you to know the time or dates," and then rose to heaven, leaving them. Acts 1:6-9. The Kingdom had not been established yet in his disciples.

Further Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke said they would see him coming on a cloud with his holy angels; coming on a cloud; this is not the resurrection. Christ told his disciples to go to Jerusalem and wait for power from on high; this is the power of the Kingdom they were to receive. When the power of the Holy Spirit was received on Pentecost, the flames of fire dancing on their heads, that was the likely time the disciples entered the Kingdom, and experienced the 2nd appearance, or return of Christ.

So his resurrection was not the return. But, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus is recorded saying that some then standing with him, 2000 years ago, would see his glorious coming with the Kingdom before they died. In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus is recorded saying all the end times prophesies would be fulfilled before the generation of 2000 years ago died, (click here to see all).

But later, while still alive on earth, the apostle said, ‘God has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear son.’ Col 1:13. And Rev 1:9, ‘I, John, who am your brother, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.’ They testified to be in the Kingdom then. So his return is a 2nd appearance within the hearts of his purified disciples, then and now,]

Now those who come to this inward and heavenly supper, and to sup with Christ, the heavenly and spiritual man, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, since he is risen and ascended, they must have their spiritual ear to hear the spiritual voice of Christ, and his spiritual knocking at the door of their immortal souls and hearts, and with his spirit, the spiritual man, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, the king of glory, that he may come into their hearts and souls, and then they to sup with him, and he to sup with them the spiritual and heavenly supper. And to this heavenly and spiritual supper did Christ send John, to call the church of Christ, after he was risen and ascended. And John said, when Christ sent him with this message, to call the church to this supper, ‘I John, am your brother in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.’ So here you may see, John was in the kingdom and patience of Christ, when he called the church to this heavenly spiritual supper of Christ, after Christ was ascended at the right hand of God; which spiritual supper, after Christ was ascended, is beyond, and a higher supper than the last supper the same night that Christ was betrayed, of taking the elements of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ's death, and a show of his death until he has come. And had not John taken that supper? And had not the kingdom of God come, when John said, ‘he was in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?’ Rev 1:9, 3:20. John tells you, Christ has come, and Christ said, ‘Behold I stand at the door and knock, (then is not he come?) and if any man will hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, (mark, into him), and I will sup with him, and he with me.’ And does not the apostle say, ‘Prove yourselves, examine yourselves, know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you are reprobates.’ 2 Cor 13:5.

And may not reprobates take the elements of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ's death, and say, they will do it until Christ has come; yet Christ said, ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock, (so then he has come and is here), and if any man will hear his voice, and open the door, he will come in to them, and sup with them, and they with him.’

And cannot reprobates be sprinkled with the element of water, and take the elements of bread and wine? And Christ, who has ascended at the right hand of God, said, Behold, I stand at the door and knock; and though he has come, and stands at the door and knocks, yet they will not open the door, and hear his spiritual voice, that he might come in to them, and sup with them, and they with him, as is said before. And such will not open the spiritual ear to hear what the spirit said to the church of Christ; for they must have the spiritual ear that lets in Christ, when he stands at the door, and knocks at the door of their hearts, to hear his spiritual voice, and to sup with the spiritual man at his spiritual supper, after Christ is ascended. And they who do not hear not the spiritual voice of Christ, when he stands at the door and knocks, are such as err from the spirit of God, and faith of Christ, and hate his light, and go from the grace and truth in their hearts; and such do not come to the heavenly supper of Christ that he calls to, now after he has ascended, that will not hear his voice, nor open the door by his grace, light, spirit, and truth, but their dark spirit leads them to live in weak elements, outward things which perish with the using, and which keep them in slavery. Gal 4:9, Col 2:22.

And the angel said unto John, ‘Blessed are they which are called to the marriage supper of the lamb. This is the spiritual marriage supper of the lamb, which the true christians were called to, after Christ was risen and ascended.’ Rev 19:9. For those who have come to this marriage supper of the lamb, are married to Christ, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven. And these are those who hear his spiritual voice, and he is come into them, and sups with them, and they with him; and this is the marriage supper of the lamb, that takes away the sins of the world, and those who come to it are blessed. For reprobates may take the outward elements of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ's death, until he comes, as they say; and yet he stands at the door of their hearts and souls, and knocks, after he is risen and ascended at the right hand of God, and they will not let him in, nor hear his voice; and the apostle tells them, in 2 Cor 13:5, ‘they are reprobates if they know not Christ in them.’

And here you may see now, that Christ called his followers to this marriage supper, after he was risen and ascended into heaven, at the right hand of God; and is not this the last supper that Christ called his people to, after he was ascended, namely, the marriage supper of the lamb; yes, such that had taken the elements of bread and wine with Christ at his last supper, the same night that he was betrayed, before he was crucified, in remembrance of his death until he had come. And John, who was one that took it in remembrance of his death until he came, said, in 1 John 5:20, after Christ was risen and ascended, ‘We know that the son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ, (mark, in him), and this is the true God, and eternal life.’ And this John spoken after Christ had risen and ascended. He that has an ear to hear, let him hear.

And Jesus Christ said, ‘If any man love me, he will keep my words and sayings; and he that has my commandments, and keeps them, it is he that loves me; and he that loves me, shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. I go to my Father, but you shall see me; and because I live, you shall live also. You shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you; and he that keeps my words, my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.’ John 14.

And the apostle said to the Colossians, ‘God has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear son.’ Mark, into the kingdom of his dear son. And this he said while they were upon the earth, and after Christ was risen and ascended. And John said, ‘that he was in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, while he was upon the earth.’ Col 1:13, Rev 1:9.

And the Colossians were not converted, when he took bread and wine, and gave to his disciples at his last supper, the same night he was betrayed. And were not those who were translated into the kingdom of Christ Jesus, come to the marriage supper of the Lamb? And Christ supped with them, and they with him; and sat together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as in Eph 2:6.

Here you may see a distinction between the last supper the same night that Christ was betrayed, before he was crucified, and the heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb, that Christ calls people to, after he was ascended into heaven at the right hand of God.

And John saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying, to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, ‘Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of those who sit on horses, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.’ Rev 19:17-21.

Now, all you that will not open the door of your souls and hearts, at which door Christ stands and knocks, nor hear his spiritual voice, to let him in, that he might sup with you, and you with him, the blessed marriage supper of the lamb, slain from the foundation of the world; I say to you all, take heed, both great and small, high and low, free and bond, lest Christ does not make of you a supper for the fowls to eat your flesh, and be filled with it, as in Rev 19; for those not blessed are those of whom the fowls make a supper, but they are blessed that are called, and come to the marriage supper of the lambs. And those who are a supper for the fowls, do not eat the flesh of Christ, nor drink his blood, the bread from heaven; and those have no life [the Life of God] in them, and so will not come to Christ that they may have life, but live in outward elements. John 5:40. But whoever eats the flesh of Christ, and drinks his blood, which is the living bread that comes down from heaven, has everlasting life. And again, Christ said, ‘He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.’ And these are those who are blessed, and come to the marriage supper of the lamb, and Christ sups with them, and they with him, since his resurrection and ascension into heaven at the right hand of God, the heavenly and spiritual supper of the lamb, and come to be members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone. John 6, Eph 5: 30.

Now concerning those who say, ‘The bread and the wine that Christ took and gave his disciples, and said, as often as you do eat this bread, and drink this cup, do it in remembrance of me, showing forth the Lord's death until he come,’ as in Matthew, Mark, Luke, 1 Cor, those who say that this outward bread, and the wine, the fruit of the vine, is the very body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and whosoever receives and eats it, receives and eats the Lord Jesus Christ, after the priest have consecrated it; in this they may see their error that do say so, and hold this doctrine; for the apostle said, ‘You that do eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show forth the Lord Jesus Christ's death, until he come.’ Then it is clear, the bread and the cup is not the Lord Jesus Christ; and the Lord Jesus Christ is not come when they eat this bread, and drink this cup; for while they are eating the bread, and drinking of the cup, they are showing forth the Lord's death until he come. Then he is not come; for they take the bread and cup ‘in remembrance of the Lord's death, and to show forth his death until he come.’ So it is clear, the cup and the bread is not the Lord Jesus Christ, as in 1 Cor 11:24-26.

And again, the apostle said, ‘In the same night that Christ Jesus was betrayed, he took bread and broke it, and said, do it in remembrance of me, and likewise the cup.’ So Christ's body was whole, and was not crucified, when he broke that outward bread; for that which they were to take in remembrance of Christ, and in a show of his death until he came, it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, but outward bread and wine in an outward cup. And Christ was nowhere called a cup, it is said, ‘Christ took the cup when he had supped.’ Then he did not take his own blood and give unto them, but he called it, ‘the fruit of the vine.’ Mat 26:29. And Christ ‘took the cup and gave his disciples, and said, drink you all of it; and took the bread, and broke it, and gave it to his disciples also.’ And in Mark 14:23. ‘They all drank of the cup, and he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples,’ (namely, the twelve), as in Luke 22. And after he had broken it, and given it them, and given them the cup, and called it ‘the fruit of the vine,’ after Christ had given them this, he said, ‘Drink you all of this.’ Mat 26:29, Luke 22:17. ‘Behold,’ said Christ, ‘the hand of him that betrays me, is with me on the table.’ So it seems here that Judas did eat of the bread, and drink of the fruit of the vine in the cup, and he did partake of these outward elements in the same night that Christ was betrayed, which elements were taken in a show and remembrance of the Lord's death until he came. But Judas did not stay until he came, for he betrayed him. Now if this outward bread and outward wine had been Christ, the living bread that came down from heaven, and his blood, which if any man did eat of that bread, and drink his blood, he shall live forever, and not die, as Christ said, ‘Whoever eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life, and dwells in me, and I in him; and he that eats me, shall even live by me; and he that eats this bread that comes down from heaven, shall live forever.’ See John 6:50-59.

Now here you may see, it is clear, that the cup and bread that Judas did eat and drink of at the last supper, was not the flesh of Christ, or bread of life that came down from heaven, nor his blood that gives life everlasting; for Judas had not eternal life, nor did not live forever by eating that outward bread, and drinking of that outward cup, the fruit of the vine.

And so, Judas did not eat Christ and live by him, and live forever, though he drank of the outward cup, the fruit of the vine, and eat of the outward bread that Christ broke at his last supper, the same night that he betrayed him; and that Judas might do, and not eat the bread from heaven, the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, for such have not life eternal in them, as Christ said, that ‘do not eat his flesh and drink his blood;’ for Christ said, ‘Except you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.’ John 6:53. And the Jews murmured at Christ, when he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven;’ and ‘except you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.’ And ‘he that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.’

So here is a great difference between the flesh and the blood of Christ, or the bread which came down from heaven, which gives life eternal, and the elements of bread and wine, which reprobates and Judas's may take and eat, that have not life eternal, nor Christ in them, as the apostle said, ‘If Christ is not in you, you are reprobates.’ (George Fox)

It is not wrong to take it, but rather pointless as the Jewish ceremonies which were symbolic have been fulfilled and the supper is in Spirit and truth just like everything in the OT. If one needs an outdated ceremony to remember to feel grateful to God then one is not walking in the Spirit and feeding on Him moment by moment and in living communion with Him and He has not come again to you in Pentecostal power as He did with His disciples which was the time for which they were waiting for Him to come again, showing forth His death, to be risen from the dead and so continuing to take it if it is a help is ok but not the perfect will of the father who desires worship in spirit and in truth. Why do we still need symbols when we have the reaility with us? That is, if we are entirely submitted to Christ.

Paul was rebuking those who had decided to take it. Some, then as today, take it literally not discerning the Spirit.

I think that many Pentecostals are not Spirit baptised due to misunderstanding of what NT tongues meant. Yes I am praying for you,may you be blessed.

Brenda

It is not wrong to take it, but rather pointless as the Jewish ceremonies which were symbolic have been fulfilled and the supper is in Spirit and truth just like everything in the OT. If one needs an outdated ceremony to remember to feel grateful to God then one is not walking in the Spirit and feeding on Him moment by moment and in living communion with Him and He has not come again to you in Pentecostal power as He did with His disciples which was the time for which they were waiting for Him to come again, showing forth His death, to be risen from the dead and so continuing to take it if it is a help is ok but not the perfect will of the father who desires worship in spirit and in truth. Why do we still need symbols when we have the reaility with us? That is, if we are entirely submitted to Christ.

Paul was rebuking those who had decided to take it. Some, then as today, take it literally not discerning the Spirit.

Yikes... this is unBiblical. Especially the last paragraph. Paul was not rebuking people who had decided to take it, thats very clear. He was rebuking those who took it wrongly. He then goes into detail of HOW they were to partake of it!

Thats about the worst exegete of scripture I've seen on this forum in some time, Brenda.

I certainly disagree with the condescending attitude in your first paragraph as well. While there is a thread of truth in what you say, there is something very special about the symbolic exercise of communion. Communion and baptism have ALWAYS been accepted Ordinances of the Christian faith for 2,000 years.

RC Sproul has said before, and he is correct, if you have stumbled across a new doctrine that no one else has ever thought of or is foreign to orthodox Christianity... throw it out. Amen and Amen.

As far as your references to pentecostalism, I do not reject tongues or other gifts... but clearly they are not evidence of anything accept that God in His wisdom gave that gift to that person in that fellowship for the building up of the Saints. Just as He gifted others to teach, evangelize, etc. Not everyone gets that gift, that is a clear teaching in scripture.

Krispy

Brenda... please explain how you get from here (scripture) to the conclusions you made about communion and what Paul was saying?

1 Corinthians 11:20-30

When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Brother the key verse is 1 Cor.11:26 which says for AS OFTEN as you eat this bread and drink the cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he returns. Conclusion you can do communion any time, anyplace, as often as you wish. Just make sure your heart is right before him and he will honor your remembrance of him at his table.

Blaine

Agreed that Paul was rebuking the disorderliness amongst them but not prohibiting the ceremony.

`Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.`

So what does unworthily mean to you Krispy? What is discerning the Lords body? Those who partake unworthily are not, non Christians. They would not have been found in the early church.

Thisis not a new doctrine, it has been accepted as part of the church for a long time asd in Quaker belief and also Salvation Army belief.

`For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.`

I understand Paul tyo be saying that they are unworthy as they are saying the Lord has not come - well He has not for them. He is not dead but the ceremony was for during His death.

Ginny read the article by Fox.

Unworthily is obvious by the description Paul gave of what was going on. People were not observing it with the reverence it deserves.

I'm sorry, but your exegete is whacked. I have no idea how you do not understand plain English here. This does not require a seminary degree to understand this. Paul says "Whenever you partake..." and then describes how to partake.

I dont care what the Quakers believe, or the SA. If they teach something other than that which the Bible CLEARLY teaches... they are wrong.

Krispy

`For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.`

I understand Paul tyo be saying that they are unworthy as they are saying the Lord has not come - well He has not for them. He is not dead but the ceremony was for during His death.

You're joking, right? Please tell me you're not serious.

Krispy

Paul is not commanding them to partake, he is merely saying what should be done when they do ie no disordlinerss and what the result is of not understanding the real meaning of communion with Christ.

`For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.` yes he is saying that they are declaring He has not come but He did come again from the grave

You mean it is clear to your own interpretation. I am telling you of another understanding.

Ummm... there is no "other understanding".

Very post-modern of you! :-)

Wow...

Well, fortunately scripture does not leave any wiggle room on this, so folks who read their Bibles will not be deceived by this "other understanding".

Krispy

This doctrine is pre everything. Most definitely pre post modernism. Yours is the general and mistaken interpretation.I myself took the scriptures literally before I saw the true meaning.

When I think of Communion, I think of the root phrase...COMMON UNION. Paul claims to have received direct revelation as the Apostle to the gentiles. 1 Cor.11

The common union of Christ is about unhindered Fellowship with God, and walking with Him unhindered in His body. The Lord sees the heart on the same level...and NOT honoring the Body...is very simply Not honoring Him.

Slighting the body, or rejecting any blood washed son or daughter through pride, or selfish ambition...is the exact same as rejecting Christ Jesus.

Let's say; showing hospitality as a lifestyle to God's family...but rejecting the weakest..[true believers] maybe they smell...hunger...aren't as couth as you would like...] You have not rightly discerned the body of Christ...and YOU WILL be judged by the Lord...the HUSBAND of the Body...Jesus

If you join to a true body..and refuse to learn to love the least...to honor the least...as Christ Jesus Himself...then you have defiled the body...and brothers and sisters...it is a Worldwide body. Never Forget..."AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE DONE IT TO THESE....THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS....YOU HAVE DONE IT TO ME!"

"YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT!"..You are known by God by your ability to love, and manifest mercy just the same...and then laying your life down for the least of the sisters and brothers is not a Burden...it is a Joyful privilege. This IS the ministry.

It centers around Jesus, and because of His Blood...and willful Dying...to redeem a doomed race...US!..and His Church is so identified with Him, as His living Eternal Temple...He is Jealous for ALL of his children...and died for All...to adapt all.

So, the waiting...KJV "tarrying"...on one another...is about searching our hearts to examine our actions toward the Church...and then the World. God so loved the World...See Stephen forgiving his murderers, as Jesus did. This is a pure heart, that He seeks.

Common Union stems from a Blood Washed, free and spotless Church...and those who refuse to love...refuse to show mercy to their brothers...but live a selfish and proud life....are rejected...and fall under the curse..You bring Damnation, or judgment to yourself, for you benefit from the Salvation of Jesus, but refuse to honor Him...by honoring his holy Church.

He related:......"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ""Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me!""

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, ""This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.""

""For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.""

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.!!

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

Communion is a Covenant...that I will repent of my sin, and covenant to love God, and lovingly lay my life down for the Church...no matter who...and forgive them, honor them, and receive them...as Jesus.

There are no spiritual heads in the church...only ONE...JESUS. The Clergy often think they are....but they are not...and often have a hard time breaking out to serve the true Church....and in my opinion....are generally the ones who have fell under the curse that Communion brings...more than the common....for it is about common union...not an elite ministry class.

iT IS ALSO by faith...AND THE ELEMANTS...THE CRACKERS AND GRAPE JUICE...have no spirituality in themselves...but are but a focus point...and a clear and mandated one...to REMEMBER...search!....as you consider Jesus' death for us all...and confess you failure to Him...and to those you have slighted or rejected.

I ask the Lord to see me covered by the Blood of Jesus, as I confess my pride, hatefulness, and sins each and every day...many times. This is the gateway to Communion with God, and His family.

I also pray for the sick..and by grace, have seen the Lord heal some...in real and DR.confirmed ways......but some sickness cannot be healed by God...they will not be...until their is deep repentance from not rightly discerning and acting upon WHO belongs to Him, and WHO does NOT!

Moving away from this "other understanding" ...

Personally I began having communion in this fashion on my own and have had some really sweet times with the Lord early in the morning. (and you know it's special if I use the word "sweet" to describe it)

There is a "mysterious" element to it that I was surprised by. Not some weird thing, but just an intimacy that surprised me.

We also have communion together as a family sometimes too. My wife will make a loaf of bread and we pass it around the table, each person breaking off a piece. Something very special about that.

Krispy

This doctrine is pre everything. Most definitely pre post modernism. Yours is the general and mistaken interpretation.I myself took the scriptures literally before I saw the true meaning.

Thank you for saying that...

THAT, folks, should tell you everything you need to know.

Krispy

Sister I have to agree with krispy. What we call the Lord's supper or communion was not a pointless Jewish ceremony. Jesus taught that the last supper would introduce the new covenant which we are living under. The whole point of communion is to remember his sacrificial death on the cross for our sins. The apostles continued to teach this in the early church.

But even in the Old Tesament the Jewish ritual of passover pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ for sin. I cannot comment on Quaker theology, but I believe the Salvation Army holds to the traditional understanding of the Lord's supper.

Blaine

Martyr... you "have to agree" with me?? lol! You sound apprehensive, my friend! :-)

Krispy

Common Union..LIFE OR DEATH?.a spiritual application..[bump..]

When I think of Communion, I think of the root phrase...COMMON UNION. Paul claims to have received direct revelation as the Apostle to the gentiles. 1 Cor.11

The common union of Christ is about unhindered Fellowship with God, and walking with Him unhindered in His body. The Lord sees the heart on the same level...and NOT honoring the Body...is very simply Not honoring Him.

Slighting the body, or rejecting any blood washed son or daughter through pride, or selfish ambition...is the exact same as rejecting Christ Jesus.

Let's say; showing hospitality as a lifestyle to God's family...but rejecting the weakest..[true believers] maybe they smell...hunger...aren't as couth as you would like...] You have not rightly discerned the body of Christ...and YOU WILL be judged by the Lord...the HUSBAND of the Body...Jesus

If you join to a true body..and refuse to learn to love the least...to honor the least...as Christ Jesus Himself...then you have defiled the body...and brothers and sisters...it is a Worldwide body. Never Forget..."AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE DONE IT TO THESE....THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS....YOU HAVE DONE IT TO ME!"

"YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT!"..You are known by God by your ability to love, and manifest mercy just the same...and then laying your life down for the least of the sisters and brothers is not a Burden...it is a Joyful privilege. This IS the ministry.

It centers around Jesus, and because of His Blood...and willful Dying...to redeem a doomed race...US!..and His Church is so identified with Him, as His living Eternal Temple...He is Jealous for ALL of his children...and died for All...to adapt all.

So, the waiting...KJV "tarrying"...on one another...is about searching our hearts to examine our actions toward the Church...and then the World. God so loved the World...See Stephen forgiving his murderers, as Jesus did. This is a pure heart, that He seeks.

Common Union stems from a Blood Washed, free and spotless Church...and those who refuse to love...refuse to show mercy to their brothers...but live a selfish and proud life....are rejected...and fall under the curse..You bring Damnation, or judgment to yourself, for you benefit from the Salvation of Jesus, but refuse to honor Him...by honoring his holy Church.

He related:......"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ""Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me!""

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, ""This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.""

""For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.""

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.!!

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

Communion is a Covenant...that I will repent of my sin, and covenant to love God, and lovingly lay my life down for the Church...no matter who...and forgive them, honor them, and receive them...as Jesus.

There are no spiritual heads in the church...only ONE...JESUS. The Clergy often think they are....but they are not...and often have a hard time breaking out to serve the true Church....and in my opinion....are generally the ones who have fell under the curse that Communion brings...more than the common....for it is about common union...not an elite ministry class.

iT IS ALSO by faith...AND THE ELEMANTS...THE CRACKERS AND GRAPE JUICE...have no spirituality in themselves...but are but a focus point...and a clear and mandated one...to REMEMBER...search!....as you consider Jesus' death for us all...and confess you failure to Him...and to those you have slighted or rejected.

I ask the Lord to see me covered by the Blood of Jesus, as I confess my pride, hatefulness, and sins each and every day...many times. This is the gateway to Communion with God, and His family.

I also pray for the sick..and by grace, have seen the Lord heal some...in real and DR.confirmed ways......but some sickness cannot be healed by God...they will not be...until their is deep repentance from not rightly discerning and acting upon WHO belongs to Him, and WHO does NOT!

I believe the Salvation Army holds to the traditional understanding of the Lord's supper.

Actually Brenda is correct. They also do not baptise.

On both counts the Salvation Army is wrong. So are the Quakers.

Krispy

Sorry I meant a more literal. Some things have a deeper meaning as well as the literal one.

`Isn't this verse very clear, krautfrau? "Let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup." There's only one interpretation you can get from that.`

I believe that Paul was saying here; let him do it if he wishes.

I did not say it was a pointless Jewish ceremony - it obviously had meaning then and when the Lord celebrated the last supper what I said was that it is without purpose now that we have the real thing which was signified.

I did not say it was a pointless Jewish ceremony

Yea, actually you did. You didnt say it was "Jewish", but you said it was "pointless as the Jewish ceremonies". Same thing. Here's what you said:

It is not wrong to take it, but rather pointless as the Jewish ceremonies which were symbolic have been fulfilled and the supper is in Spirit and truth just like everything in the OT.

Now, I will agree there is nothing magical about communion. Transubstantiation is a heresy (among many!) of the Roman Catholic Church.

Paul is not merely telling someone they can do it they want to... he is exhorting them to do it correctly. If it was no big deal then he would not have bothered addressing that.

On top of that, it was the HOLY SPIRIT that was speaking thru Paul. Therefore we can believe that this IS an important issue to GOD because HE breathed this thru Paul.

I will agree there are deeper meanings in scripture than a mere literal interpretation. However the deeper spiritual meaning will NEVER contradict the literal, and the vice versa. If it did then you could read whatever you want to into the text, and that is bad exegete and horrible hermanuetics.

Krispy

Creation7... thank you, I was about to post that passage!

You are right on!

Krispy

`It is not wrong to take it, but rather pointless as the Jewish ceremonies which were symbolic have been fulfilled and the supper is in Spirit and truth just like everything in the OT."

That should read with a comma afer pointless meaning the ceremony has no meaning anymore, being a symbol of what Christ was to achieve for us in the resurrection where we are to feed on Him by faith. It is the partaking which is pointless.

`If it was no big deal then he would not have bothered addressing that.`

The disorder was a big deal.

Fox - who? and where?

I think she meant John Fox... former head coach of the Carolina Panthers.

Krispy

One time I was in a conversation via email with a "Fiends" lady and oh! the fine dance she did in explaining away the need for baptism! The article was so long it wearied me to even read it! SIGH Now, if only she would have been as devoted to supporting it I wonder if that much could even have been written!

We used to live in Friendsville, Tennessee. A town founded by and still largely populated by Quakers.

It's a quaint little Mayberry-ish town in east Tennessee... little store, barber shop, 2 cops, 37 churches. It is a "dry town". And it had more marijuana and moonshine than you can imagine going on...

The town motto: "We're a dry town and we have the alcoholics to proove it!"

But they were real nice folks... very peaceful!

Krispy

Yeah brother I have or shall I say I agree with you regarding communion. I can't go with Benda's understanding of communion. By the way was surprised to hear the SA does not baptize or do communion. Interesting.

Blaine

Yea, little known fact. Not sure how to handle that in regards to fellowship. I would have to look at their doctrine of salvation. But clearly Jesus instituted the ordanances of baptism and communion... I just dont know enough about their other doctrines. Might make for a good discussion.

As for baptism... Acts chapter 8. Phillip and the Ethiopian. Clearly not just a pointless Jewish tradition.

Krispy

...our next door neighbors our Mormons. Wonderful people, some of the best neighbors we have ever had.

And horrendously lost.

Krispy

I need to research a lot more on Quakers before making a broad sweeping comment, but in the short bit of research I have made... it's out there. Not as far as the Mormons or JW's but there are something I would call dangerous.

I will say that this George Fox guy had some strange ideas. Since a lot of his core doctrines seem to run contradictory to the Bible I would definitely call him a false teacher.

Sorry Brenda. Sola Scriptura, my friend.

Krispy

During the changeover period between the types and symbolism of the Jewish religion and the establishment of Christianity, the ceremonies were allowed to be continued for a while, even circumcision which signified the circumcision of the heart under the new covenant. These things were for a sign and now the fulfillment was here but it took a while for the Jews to understand it. There is very little mention of baptism and communion in the letters, only in the early period. Perhaps there is a time for believers to wish to partake in these things but once the fullness of the revelation has been received, one has no need for them. One then worships in spirit and in truth, in the inward man whereas all other ceremonies from Jewish times were for the outward man. There is only one baptism in scripture and the water ceremony was to signify that ie the baptism of the Spirit. Having two baptisms makes no sense.

Having said all this, many times I do wonder why it was such a big issue back in the Reformation era when some opted for Believer's baptism instead of infant baptism. Hey! all it is is making an adult wet with water in the name of Jesus! Why did a simple rite as this evoke such a radical reaction like drownings, burning at the stake? Or, was loss of money, or loss of power involved?

I know, Ginny, you are a Mennonite... so I appreciate your slant on history, but you're referring of course to the anabaptists. History shows that they were not all that innocent, and some of their leaders were in fact quite murderous. This is well documented and can not be denied.

Their actions back then is what provoked such a strong response from those in the reformers camp. And the "drownings" was not widespread and represents less that 1% of the Reformation.

Surely the whole situation was unfortunate... but there was plenty of blame to go around.

It's popular today to think the reformers like Luther & Calvin drowned them because of their stance on baptism. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you really want to go there... we can. :-) Just let me know!

Krispy

even circumcision which signified the circumcision of the heart under the new covenant

Bravo... something we can agree on.

There is very little mention of baptism and communion in the letters, only in the early period.

Ooops... back to disagreeing. There is much mention of it. And early period? The new testament IS the early period!

Perhaps there is a time for believers to wish to partake in these things but once the fullness of the revelation has been received, one has no need for them.

Chapter and verse, please.

Having two baptisms makes no sense.

Except that we are commanded to repent and be baptised. So then, by your reasoning... we need not repent.

So no more repentence!

Krispy

There is very little in the letters on the `two ordinances`. Most is in Acts. This is the earliest of the early period.

You have repeated the proceedure often used by those who just want to shoot someone down, and who is not interested in learning of any other position, or even in fair discussion claiming that the scriptures are black and white when in fact they are unclear on many issues and that you are the only one who is interpreting correctly. If you did have a superior knowledge then one would expect you to have the coexisting graces or at least good debating skills. Instead you have used the methods of those who do not have an argument or know their subject well enough to debate, and so you first of all try to dismiss me as bringing a new interpretation to the board, and when you failed there you try to discredit my denomination and leaders, not having any knowlege at all about them apart from a quick search where you will probably come across detractors.

All people like you can do is attack and set up straw men and in your last comment, misrepresent what I did say. Repentance comes before baptism in the Spirit.

You are correct... you are teaching things outside of scripture which you can not back up with scripture. You refer us to George Fox, and not the Bible. When we bring scriptures to you you tell us we are interpretting them literally and that we ought not to do that.

You are correct, I am not interested in learning your "new" (as you put it) interpretation because it is not an interpretation... nor or is it new.

Now, because YOU have no argument you play the victim. "Krispy is attacking me."

No, as a person I am not attacking you. What I am attacking is your doctrine because it is contrary to scripture. We are commanded to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered. When you bring these false doctrines to this public forum I will shout it from the roof tops what it is. Why? Because I do not want to see anyone deceived by this.

As a person I am sure you are wonderful, and outside of theology we would probably get along very well.

But if I seem mocking it's because the doctrine you bring to the table is worthy of being mocked.

If you think I am strong... read Martin Luther some time.

I do love you! Enough to tell you the truth and put up with you being upset by it. Maybe not even liking me much.

Krispy

Krispy I care only for the truth and nothing I believe exists for me unless it is in scripture. I am not using Fox instead of scripture, but contrary to what you say, there are various interpretations from genuine believers who get out of their little circles, and which can be fully shown as scriptural but arguing the toss over verses has proven to be pointless so many times with those who have closed minds and do not understand that our understanding of scripture deepens as we go on with the Lord in obedience to what we already know. We do not have the scriptures to use as proof texts, there must be a grasp of the whole revelation.

I do not have a problem with those who debate or discuss honestly and respectfully but when personall attack comes in and when a person has his or her faith brought into question, and their denomination is dismissed despite it being part of the church for a long time, then I know that bringing the scripture to bear is pointless.

I have not attack you as a person. Only your theology.

My knowledge of Quakerism is very limited, which I have already stated. Preliminary research (and yes, the internet is a good place to start) shows that Mr Fox's theology was in reality warmed over Gnosticism.

Many purtian and reformed writers refuted his theology from the get go. And no, the Quakers have not been an accepted denomination in mainstrean biblical orthodoxy.

Just saying they were doesnt make it so.

Found this blurb for a book on George Fox:

"The combined effect of observations made by John Owen (Puritan Vice-chancellor of Oxford University) in tracts published in 1655 and 1679 was that Quaker theology renewed aspects of Gnosticism, a theology interpreted by patristic commentators as Christian heresy. This monograph argues that George Fox’s theological message (and in particular, his interpretation of the concept of revelatory Light) incorporated a remarkably similar soteriology and realised eschatology to that found in Valentinian Christian Gnosticism. "

Think I will stick with John Owen!

Krispy

Poor Matthew. He must be feeling really badly for asking this simple question in his O.P..

It doesn't matter how often, Brother Matthew, as long as it doesn't lose the intense meaning of His Sacrifice.

17 Simple to understand verses -

1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1Co 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

yea, sorry for the rabbit trail. Thats what happens when denial of clear scripture takes place.

Krispy

I'm sorry Krispy Friend. I wasn't try to pick on anybody - but just to show where we get our beliefs from.

Paul was writing to a Gentile Church and not teaching them Jewish customs.

The first Church was So excited about what had happened just within months of them coming together that they "broke bread daily" because they knew and saw Jesus. They were in one accord and certainly weren't doing Passover daily.

Act 2:46,27 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

But by time the Gospel reached pagan Corinth, the recognition of what they were supposed to be "remembering" - His Sacrifice and "who" His Body is, got corrupted and they began to eat and drink too much while others went hungry - while they were supposed to be remembering His Body & Blood.

Corinth was so messed up in so many ways - it's no surprise.

The same Church that Paul had to tell, to not go beyond what was written.

What was the original question in this thread? Something got lost along the way here.

Blaine

`the Quakers have not been an accepted denomination in mainstrean biblical orthodoxy.`

Who says? Krispy Krittr?

ginnyrose

I pointed you to the article by Fox which I posted as he explains the doctrine which Quakers believe very well I think and providing scriptures. I posted this because I knew that most do not understand where Quakers (and Salvationists) get this idea from, and make the accusation that it is not in scripture. I wanted to give others the chance to learn about this different interpretation to theirs of the passages in Acts and Corinthians so that they could argue, not in ignorance, but with the information needed before they could conduct a disagreement hopefully based around these scriptures. I also wanted to offset the accusation that I am inventing a new doctrine which did come as expected by way of a voice of ignorance but which was shown to be untrue and that the accuser was indeed ignorant of the doctrines of the Quakers.

Some of it is explained by the verse `show forth His death until He comes` which for many, was a command for the disciples every time they ate for three days when the Lord lay in His grave, dead, and now He is not dead so why show Him to be dead, and He came to the disciples who grieved for Him for those three days and Has come for those who have knocked at the door and He opened to them and came and supped with them. This is the Lords supper.

The church learned the practise of communion from the Jewish ceremony which was a sign of the coming communion in the Spirit between Christ and His people. Once that communion took place in the New Covenant and the outward became the inward, the sign became reality although it continued in the chuurch and obviously still does by those who are sincere in their wish to obey the commandments but who have not yet understood the place of the signs of the old covenant and how they are fulfilled in Christ so that nothing avails but His presence within, no ceremony, no church setting, no church organ, no church choir, no priest,no dipping or sprinkling, nothing does anything for man but that heavenly presence within - the true communion.

This only concerns signs from the OT which have been replaced by spiritual realities not the concepts you name. They are to do with the way we are to worship, in spirit and in truth whereas under the old order, they were in outward acts. Paul explains it when he said that circumcision is now circumcision of the heart although that too continued during the early church period. It took time for the church to understand and many wanted to retain their Jewishness. and the practices they had always known.

Yes I agree that the subject of communion has been a stumbling block with so many ideas in how it should be done - alcohol or juice, cracker or bread,shared communion cup or individual, real presence or not. I think this fact alone, that there is no agreement on it should show that it is mans invention to continue with it.

I agree with you that they are mistaken, KrispyKrittr, but don't you think this is irrelavant to the topic? I mean, whether or not they are an "accepted" group has nothing to do with whether or not they are right. Just a thought. :)

Sure it's relevent... they were not accepted because they were found to be in error. And the topics being discussed on this thread were some of the main issues in which they were found to be in error.

Krispy

"The church learned the practise of communion from the Jewish ceremony which was a sign of the coming communion in the Spirit between Christ and His people."Krautfrau.

Where did you get this idea? The Church did not learn communion from the "Jewish People"...but from the Lord Jesus Himself...'
"Do this in remembrance of me!"...Jesus....and the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul.

Unless Paul is a liar....here is what he said;" 1 Corinthian 11.

23. ""For I have received of the Lord..!!""... that which also I delivered unto you,......!!

that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

Think of Common-Union when you consider communion...and it involves being Clean before God...have a Clean Heart and a renewed Spirit before the Lord; Washed White by the death and Blood of Jesus's willful sacrifice of Himself..[ "I lay my life down; I pick it up again." And, your not alone. You were grafted into a PEOPLE, a FAMILY.

If we are made clean, forgiven and given grace by God, through His Sacrifice and refuse to love Him, or His people, His Body...we must be judged by Him. This is what the waiting [tarrying] for one another is all about. Have I slighted God, or my brother....?....Have I forgiven my brother or sister of all? Have I laid my life down in love for the little ones? Why? We are MEMBERS one of another. We are a Body.

Have I "rightly discerned this body I am now a member of? Do I love the least, as Jesus does? If I do not, weakness, sickness, and maybe even Death will come, as judgment from a Jealous God, to me, as a bastard child. This is the reason we judge ourselves while we partake, and confess and forsake our inward darkness toward His Atonement, by Faith as the Father sees.

Have I been selfish or greedy toward the Church? Have I been mean, and hurt my sister or brother? And then, Asking the Father to see you clean...covered by the blood...as you confess these sins of deeds, or omission...to Him;
or to individuals in the body as led. It is about Common-Love, Common-Mercy, and it is a command...not an option to do so. We sin, if we do not love and show mercy.

As far as the Ceremony goes, I see it as a focus point in a meeting where BY FAITH the body can be Clean Again. The elements are symbolic, obviously, with no power in themselves. The elements that represent atonement are, though, instituted by Jesus Himself...but we can only benefit as we obey the command to repent by the Holy Spirit that possesses us....that we are led by.

It's really about Honoring Jesus's Love, and honoring those that he loved that you are joined to. It is a holy Responsibility to Love God, and your Neighbor as yourself, seeing Jesus as the worthy One...and the Judge; Fear God, and Love Him.

Brothertom

The Lord was holding the Jewish ceremony as they celebrated the Passover, on the night He was betrayed.

`26. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

Paul was saying that the Lord had said what the new purpose of the ritual was, that they were proclaiming His death and those who eat and drink the Jewish ceremony are proclaiming His death and are guilty - because He has come or rather should be come again in resurrection power and might. It is the resurrected Lord we are to proclaim. To His disciples, it was on the eve of His death and appropriateto then. Paul is saying that the ritual is not approprite today but it is not banned oviously.

They are guilty not discerning the spiritual meaning, and are denying the purpose of the blood which is to wash from sin. Those who still sin have not had the second return of the Lord to their hearts.

"Paul was saying that the Lord had said what the purpose of the ritual was, that they were proclaiming His death and those who eat and drink the Jewish ceremony are proclaiming His death and are guilty - because He has come or rather should be come again in resurrection power and might.

It is the resurrected Lord we are to proclaim. To His disciples, it was on the eve of His death and appropriate to then. Paul is saying that the ritual is not appropriate today but it is not banned obviously. "..Krautfrau

I am sorry...but we disagree. I had a rough time understanding this paragraph...but I got the last part about Paul saying the ritual is not appropriate for today? We're not on the same page. If not appropriate for today, then why the exhortation to wait, and the warning of judging your own heart considering your actions toward the body?

You evidently think that the Apostles took it for that one time before his Death...and that is all that it symbolizes; the Death of Jesus. This is far from the truth. The Sacrifice is eternal, as well as the fountain of mercies stemming from it. God beholds the Blood of Jesus today, as he beholds those covered by it. He set it Before His Father in His Resurrection.

Common-Union is a stark reminder of that Sacrifice, His Death..Broken Body and shed Blood...which is the only means that we have NOW to enter into His Temple...His Presence. This is why we are told to examine ourselves...allowing Holy conviction to spur us to confess, forsake, and repent.....and directly toward the Church-body if we have sinned against them, or lacked Godly Respect and mercy towards them.

Though Symbolic, this is a daily function that we must live in, to maintain love and a clean heart. Taken by faith, it is God's method of Him beholding the body....from the least through all, as His Holy temple he loves beyond understanding.

Hebrews 9:13-15

13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

It is not only appropriate for today, it is today's foundation for the Promise of Eternal Life.

I rest my case.

This is what happens when we lean on the interpretations and opinions of a man (Mr. Fox) and not on the scripture.

The Puritans of the day did well when they rejected Mr. Fox's theology.

Krispy

I don`t say they took it once - it was to be every time they ate, together waiting for three days for the Lord to return from death. After then He did eat with them yet He had said that He would eat no more until His kingdom had come. It had. They were in it.

The Institution of the Lord's Supper
Mt. 26.26-29 · Mk. 14.22-25 · Lk. 22.14-20
23 \t¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread:

*As correction regarding the misues of the Lords Supper, Paul is explaining again the real purpose of the occasion before the Lords death, as revealed to him by the Lord, probably during his time in Arabia.

24 \tand when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 \tAfter the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament Jer. 31.31-34 in my blood: Ex. 24.6-8 this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

*He is demonstrating in figure that, that which feeds their physical bodies, is to be a spiritual feeding on Him in faith and thanksgiving when He comes in the power granted unto Him in the resurrection from the dead, the power to pass on this power to those who will feed on Him in the spiritual supper.

He says to do it in remembrance of Him which means during His absence, but to those who feed on Him daily, He is not absent but a very present Saviour. He also said to do it as oft as you shall eat and drink, another abuse of the church who do it occasionally.

Not understanding the true meaning of what Jesus said on the night He was betrayed, leads to many abuses and differences regarding how it is to be partaken and what it contains. This is to be expected when men are led by their own understanding and great divisions in the church have been caused through this.

26 \tFor as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

*Whenever you, the disiples that is, there is no mention that it was to be an institution. The spiritual comm-union is regarding His dwelling in His temple, the body, which a different aspect to demonstrating and remembering His death. Those who are in communion with Him do not need to have a reminder of His death, but the disciples did need to be shown what was to follow and the purpose of His death.

Partaking of the Supper Unworthily
27 \t¶ Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

*Those who continue with the figure, which is without worth, are denying the fulfillment of it on the cross.

28 \tBut let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

*Paul says let a man be convinced himself and be allowed to partake if he so wishes, along with other Jewish ordinances like circumcision which were allowed to continue amongst those who were weak as yet.

29 \tFor he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 \tFor this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

*It is a mans own responsibilty to walk according to his light and the fact that many are so weak in the church shows how little light they have.

31 \tFor if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

*The men who do not understand are in need of repentance for their unsubmitted walk.

32 \tBut when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

*To come under the rulership of Christ means we will have discernment and understand. Otherwise we are no better than those outside the church.

33 \t¶ Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34 \tAnd if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

*Paul is pleading for patience towards those who will continue with the figure, to wait on them to finish before the meal, and not to `get stuck in` leaving little for those with the weaker faith which is wrong. Then he shows that there is much still he has to say on the issue.

Krautfrau...You have been indoctrinated by a man. Though a great man, and a wonderful leader, he is not the Word of God. Communion is Common Union, and about our relationship NOW with His Holy Body, and our honor, or lack of it...today. This is a daily affair, but instituted and important for today by Jesus, and His Apostles......not as ritual, but Faithful focus on His desire for a Holy Bride that has learned to love one another.

George Fox, the founder of the Quaker Christian Sect, [circa 1656] believed that the act of Communion was unnecessary and outdated by the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, and simply put, a morbid traditional ceremony.

For Fox, I Corinthians 11:26 was a key verse; in this verse, Paul, in addressing a problematic eating and drinking ritual that had developed at Corinth, cites that the Lord Jesus revealed to him that "as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." ...A death focused ritual..

To Fox, the Lord had undeniably "come" and was present to His followers. As another biblical citation, Fox looked to I John 5:20, which stated, "and we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in His Son, Jesus Christ."

.....!!! If indeed Christ has come, as Fox believed, then any "time limit" for proclaiming Christ's death has expired.!!!!...[ THIS IS THE KEY TO FOX'S ERROR ]

But...Communion in itself is NOT focusing on Christ's death, but A REMEMBRANCE of Christ's death, there is a difference...and it is for All who received Him, and that He Chose to dwell in a BODY...a corporate living Temple, the CHURCH...IE...US!

By REMEMBERING that holy Sacrifice, we must judge our hearts with a spirit of repentance so to discover any SIN unconfessed, or attitudes, or lacking of love, that we may have committed AGAINST that Holy Body. HOLY COMMON- UNION.....THEREBY.."Communion."

Though the elements are not necessary, or essential in maintaining holy love and mercy towards one another...they are an instituted FOCUS that does recall the why of loving the least of the brothers, and the need of repentance in the recesses of our heart, to please God and Love; not to focus on Death of Jesus, but WHY he died, and our responsibility to Him to love our brothers.

If this responsibility is not carried out, and we refuse to Agape the Body of Jesus, whoever they be, then He assures us that Judgment will come. God sees.

[references: wiki and others]

I don`t say they took it once - it was to be every time they ate, together waiting for three days for the Lord to return from death. After then He did eat with them yet He had said that He would eat no more until His kingdom had come. It had. They were in it.

Again, if they were not to partake of this sacrament after this then why does Paul spend so much time instructing them how to do it properly??

Krispy

Half a chapter amongst all of his letters is not a lot of time to me. Most of the time he was teaching the real meaning - ie not taking it.

Whenever someone says "the REAL meaning" ... I get nervous.

Basically if I understand this correctly, I should read the Bible at face value... and then do the complete opposite of what it says, and then I will be living according to God's will. Because the REAL meaning is not what it actually says... it's opposite.

...or something like that. :-)

Krispy