I John 3:9, We can't sin if we are Christians?

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Who is the sinless One? He that is in us and His Seed remains no matter what, that is our birthing from God, the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father born again in the believer, He is the One that does not sin.

This explains "born from above, cannot sin" Who is sinning?

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And (((((if any man sin,))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin, this man is us that the Seed is birthed in, The Seed cannot sin but "any man sin" can. Then 1 John 1: 9

In Christ: Phillip

I have long been with Adonai, but as a child who frequently stumbles, sin is a part of my life, much as I would prefer it not to be.

The Seed that was placed in me by the Ruach haKodesh glows with a holy and sacred influence, transforming me towards Yeshua's perfect example from faith to faith. This blessed Seed is a transformative one, much as a radioactive mineral causes changes in those exposed to it, so am I, born anew in the Spirit through Yeshua, but not yet complete.

My carnal body draws me toward sin, for this is a cursed and broken world, and mankind cursed as to be unable to NOT sin, no matter what we attempt to do in our own strength, except as the Spirit walks within us. I am tempted, and I do sin, often without being aware of it...not acting in ignorance, but in the blind following of my will towards those things that I think that I want, having been tempted and taught that what I want is good and natural.

And natural it is, for we humans to sin without thought or caring, until the Seed planted in us by the Holy Spirit slowly grows within us, and in a spiritually radioactive manner changes us from faith to faith.

The sinning becomes less, and the more we devote ourselves to hearing the Ruach guide our thoughts and decisions, the better the progress we make toward completion in Yeshua haMessiach.

Legally, we receive no judgement for sin because we are in Yeshua, and He is in us. Unfortunately, we do sin, and when we sin, if we repent of our sin, turn from it, and ask for forgiveness in Yeshua, YHWH will refuse to see that sin as He refuses to see the others.

Abba refuses to see our sin debt because of the covering, the kapparah, of Yeshua's blood. But we do sin. We are in the first Adam by body, and until our body becomes incorrupt, and we are as Yeshua is, we will sin, although less and less, and that not in our own strength, but in the Spirit.

We are mortal, and corrupt from birth, living in a cursed world, with our flesh as an enemy as well as the Adversary.

Adonai wants most of all, not that we attempt perfection in our own strngth, but to seek that completion in Him, through Yeshua, and the Ruach haKodesh.

Q

Wonderful Questor,

I agree with everything and would add only one comment.

Jesus is much more that just a covering for our sin.

He is;

The work of Christ is represented by a variety of English words today. These words all have technical meanings drawn from Scripture. In early English these words were much more common in use.

1. Atonement is making amends for a wrong done, for a loss or injury caused. This is a more general term and must be used cautiously because it includes the whole process of making us right with God through the work of Christ.

2. Expiation is the actual satisfaction of a wrong, making atonement for it. Expiation is particularly the effect of satisfaction upon the sinner’s guilt.

3. Propitiation is the appeasing of the one offended to remove the cause of his anger. Propitiation speaks primarily to the effect of satisfaction upon God as the offended party.

4. Reconciliation is our restored fellowship with God resulting from the removed offense. The New Testament verb is katalassein. The noun form is katalagae. It means to exchange, to change a person from enmity to friendship. This works in both directions: We are reconciled with God, and he with us.

His Cross work is finished and so perfect was the sacrifice that it takes away our sin and puts it never to be seen again as far as the east is form the west, which you cannot get to the west by always following east unless you stop and turn around. That is what it means we don't turn around and look west to see our sin and either does the Father, we are new creatures in Christ old things are passed away, all things become new always, God the Father sees me through the work of Christ on the cross, which is finished.

In Christ our blessed perfection making our image grow into the image of Jesus the Son, perfect. "For as He is in this world so are we", we are growing into His blessed image.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

And Pauls agony for us also; Romans 16:24-27 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

What is the power of God establishing us into? The revelation of the Mystery? Who's Gospel? What Secret? Manifest to who? Through our Glory in Jesus Christ for ever.

Fulfilling the Word of God in us; Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What a glorious Hope: Phillip

Endzone,

πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου αμαρτιαν ου ποιει οτι σπερμα αυτου εν αυτω μενει και ου δυναται αμαρτανειν οτι εκ του θεου γεγεννηται

Literally: Anyone “who has been born” of God (perfect passive participle – verb tense denotes an action that has been completed in the past unto the subject by an exterior actor, which continues to have an effect in the present), does not “do” sin (present active indicative – verb tense denotes an action that is “continuous” in the present, done by the actor himself), because His seed remains in him; and he “does not have the power” to sin, because he “has been born” of God.

As you see, because of an action that has been finished in the past by an exterior actor, the subject has limitations in the present.
Namely, because of the regenerating work of God (making a person be born-again), the Christian does not “do” sin anymore, in the present. Let me explain using this illustration:
Have you ever heard people who “do” drugs say something like, “Do you ‘do’ crack?” What they are asking is this: “Are you into this?” They are not asking, “Have you done it at one time or another?”, but rather, “Is this something that characterizes your way of living?”

Now, John is saying, “The person who has been born of God does not ‘do’ sin”.
αμαρτιαν ου ποιει
Why? Because he has been born of God, and therefore God’s seed remains in him.

For this reason, I believe the ESV has an excellent translation of that verse:

"No one born of God MAKES A PRACTICE OF SINNING, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

In Christ,
Renoncer

P.S.: You may want to read Charles Leiter's book entitled "Justification and Regeneration", including Appendix B, which deals with that verse. It is simple but excellent.

Brother Blaine,
I thought your response was excellent. For the most part, I believe you do not need to know Greek or Hebrew to know the Word of God. Like you did, we can look at the context and compare passages of Scripture to get an accurate picture of what is being conveyed. However, sadly, some people twist passages out of context. When they do so and refuse to let Scripture interpret Scripture, knowing Greek or Hebrew will help to properly divide the Word.

Now, we can avoid two pitfalls:
1) Concept of sinless perfection
2) Concept that a real born-again believer can still live in sin
Both are impossible and unbiblical.

I am French-Canadian by birth, and I can tell you that every reliable French translation clearly and unambiguously conveys that meaning (that of PRACTICING SIN).

In Christ,
Renoncer

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh must die, it cannot be saved, with my mind I am saved in soul and spirit, my spirit now being the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in my soul forever. The flesh will take itself being a seed put in the ground and die, that it can bring forth fruit. Resurrection is the only life for the flesh, new and perfect like HIS. This flesh that I live in had to be made a temple of God, quickened to contain the God Life, not I "BUT CHRIST LIFETH IN ME", that is the only way I still live, CHRIST LIFE.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: ((((((nevertheless I live;))))) yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

"There is something more which needs to happen to us before we are truly walking in the Spirit. This something enables us to walk without sin."

Have you - or anyone you know - actually attained this state?

I have a question for Renoncer,
What does your french Bible call Job's friends who kept insisting that he must have sinned, "Les Misrables"?
Just wondering!!!

Brother Martyr,
I am not sure if you have heard the saying that a little bit of Greek is more dangerous than no Greek at all.

In the case of verb tenses especially the present tense, the Greek does not have simple present tense and continuous present tense as we have in the English. So the verb "play" can be translated "is playing", "am playing", "are playing" etc...and vise versa
Same with "sin", "is sinning" or any other verb.
That makes it really hard to understand what John is trying to convey except for the context.

We know that any sin is of the Devil be it one sin or a hundred.
And we know that the Lord Jesus said that those who commit sin are of the Devil because he sins from the beginning.

John is not teaching anything new here.
The Lord Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit.
Just as it is very unusual in the natural world to find an apple tree with oranges on it (((even one orange))) and we must assume that something wrong must have happened to its genetic make up, John carries that idea to the spiritual as well. If we see a child of God commiting ONE sin we must assume that the Devil had found his way to him somehow. You remember when Peter, the Lord's diciple who was just commended by the Lord Jesus for his bold confession of Him, yet when he tried to talk Jesus out of the cross. He said to him: "Get thee behind me Satan"

John here is tring to convey to us this same idea.
That if we are born of God, we can not sin( Period ).
This is the Christian ideal. The ideal must be defined so when we do sin, we would know that we have fallen behind the ideal and strive to get back there especially that we are given everything for life and godliness and the blood of Jesus is ready to cleanse and cover the penitent sinner.
But if the ideal is never set, how would we know that we are in the wrong.

Just a little note here.
When John says " can not sin". He is not talking about inability to sin as some teach.
Just as if someone asks a Chritian to lie and he says: " I can not lie" He is not talking about inability to lie but rather a moral restraint because of the new nature he recieved.

To say that a Christian can not sin (or does not have the ability to sin) and to say that a Chritian does not have the ability not to sin are both wrong. A Christian has both the ability to sin and to be free of sin, but he will not sin because he loves God and his law which is now written on his heart.

Quote: PaulWest wrote;

""""There is something more which needs to happen to us before we are truly walking in the Spirit. This something enables us to walk without sin." """

and what is that?

Have you - or anyone you know - actually attained this state? Jesus Christ only

No other, even in scripture.

In Christ: Phillip

by Renoncer on 2011/8/29 6:27:52

Endzone,

πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου αμαρτιαν ου ποιει οτι σπερμα αυτου εν αυτω μενει και ου δυναται αμαρτανειν οτι εκ του θεου γεγεννηται

Literally: Anyone “who has been born” of God (perfect passive participle – verb tense denotes an action that has been completed in the past unto the subject by an exterior actor, which continues to have an effect in the present), does not “do” sin (present active indicative – verb tense denotes an action that is “continuous” in the present, done by the actor himself), because His seed remains in him; and he “does not have the power” to sin, because he “has been born” of God.

As you see, because of an action that has been finished in the past by an exterior actor, the subject has limitations in the present.
Namely, because of the regenerating work of God (making a person be born-again), the Christian does not “do” sin anymore, in the present. Let me explain using this illustration:
Have you ever heard people who “do” drugs say something like, “Do you ‘do’ crack?” What they are asking is this: “Are you into this?” They are not asking, “Have you done it at one time or another?”, but rather, “Is this something that characterizes your way of living?”

Now, John is saying, “The person who has been born of God does not ‘do’ sin”.
αμαρτιαν ου ποιει
Why? Because he has been born of God, and therefore God’s seed remains in him.

For this reason, I believe the ESV has an excellent translation of that verse:

"No one born of God MAKES A PRACTICE OF SINNING, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

In Christ,
Renoncer

exelent write up

"Yes indeed many have witnessed to this state. And I witness to have experienced it too. It is the true Baptism of the Spirit not the Pentecostal version and it is seen much less today than in the past."

How did you attain (or obtain, if you prefer) this experience? And how does it differ from the Pentecostal baptism?

UntoBabes,
They are actually called, "consolateurs fâcheux". (Job 16:2) Sorry to disappoint you. :(
Others are called "misérables" in the Bible, but not Job's friends.

Translation sometimes does funny things to a text...

In Christ,
Renoncer

When we approach this issue of practicing sin, the question of real importance is this: "Has God really done a work in your heart?" Is Christ really in you? Do you really have a new heart? Have you really been born again?

John is giving us an accurate picture of the reality of saving faith. He is saying, "You want to know that you have eternal life? Well then, take these tests and see whether your profession of faith is real or not. If it is, praise the Lord and have confidence that He hears you. But, if it is not..."

It is a matter of "reality". The Bible tells us that we ought to examine ourselves to see whether we are truly in the faith (2Corinthians 13:5). Why? Because we ought to notice the effect of God's saving grace. If there is no effect, then it would be preposterous to claim that I have had an encounter with the living God.

Remember, God is the One who by the power of His grace is preparing a beautiful Bride for Himself. She is dressed is fine linen, bright and pure, which stands for "the righteous deeds OF THE SAINTS" (Revelation 19:8). Remember, God saved us by His plan according to His purpose, that we might fulfill the good works that HE PREPARED for us (Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:14). This is only possible by the life of Christ in us, not just in theory, but in reality.

That is why Paul can say in Romans 8:5-9 that those who belong to Christ are controlled by the Spirit, not by the flesh anymore. That is why we can know that we have come to know Christ (saving knowledge) because we obey His commandments (1John 2:3). We do this because His commandments are not burdensome to us anymore, since our faith has overcome the world (1John 5:3-4).

Does that mean that we are perfect? Of course not. (Philippians 3:12, 1John 1:8) But, we have been called heavenward in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:14). And His grace was not without effect (1 Corinthians 15:10). Who is the instigator and finisher of this faith? Jesus. (Hebrews 12:2) Thus, God will look to it that we are disciplined since He has accepted us as his children (Hebrews 12:6-8).

From beginning to end, all this is from God! Praise the Lord! If you take the tests and find that God has really done a work in you, then rejoice all the more and give thanks to Him who is faithful. And if you take these Biblical tests (remember, I didn't make them up; God did) and find that you fail the test, by all means, cry out to God for mercy. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Many will come to Him on that day and say, Lord, did we not do these mighty works in Your name? But the test will be: Did you do the will of the Father who is in Heaven? (Matthew 7:21) Yes, you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:20)... the fruit of the tree having been made good (Matthew 12:33).

John 1:8
Does this verse teach that if someone loves God with the whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and claims to be so he is a liar And makes God a liar?

Is John saying if we say we have no sin, no sin is being charged to our account, no sin at all from birth till death or is he saying if we say we are not practicing sin on regular basis we are liars.

If he is saying the latter then he is contradicting himself in a big way.
But why would he be saying the former of he is speaking to Christians . Why would a Christian be in the dander of claiming that they are born sinless and thus has no need of the atoning work of the Lord Jesus. This is the real question we must ask.

We know from John warnings elsewhere in the epistles and from history that the church was mixing with and allowing Gnostics in the middle of the congregation . That is why he gives the warning in 2 John 7-11

7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What did the Gnostics teach that was so dangerous? And how did it differ from the Christian beliefs?
Following is a list of differences.

Gnostics: The Gnostics considered anything physical to be sinful , therefore the person of Christ can not possess both human and divine natures for it is sin for God to have a physical body.
Christian: The person of Christ is both Human and Divine who possessed a sinless human nature, who being God, when he was found in the form of a man, emptied Himself from His divine rights and lived in total surrender to the will of the Father. This emptying of the divine right that Christ willingly undertook upon Himself did not for one moment rob Him from being God, but He was and is and will always be God yet He had to win the victory over sin and the Devil in His own humanity as a Spirit filled man without imploring the aid of His divine nature.
As a man He grew in wisdom and stature, as a man He hungered , and was tempted, as a man He resisted the Devil, and as a man He endured suffering and torture unto death.
Gnostic: The person of Christ is a mere human Messiah that is to be emulated through human power.
Christian: The person of Christ is God in the flesh that is to be emulated through the holy Spirit’s power living in the believer.
Gnostics: The person of Christ did not atone for humanity, rather, man can through mystic exercises and prayer achieve his desired level of perfection for God in his own power.
Christian: The person of Christ made atonement for mankind to put away the curse of sin an restore man through the new birth to the image of God in which he was created in the beginning of time.
Gnostics also deny the existence of sin and Hell.
Christian: Mankind is born sin and deserving of Hell unless they trust in the atoning work of Christ.

Now imagine a bunch of Mormons or JW started coming to your church and the congregation is receiving them and trying to show them Christian love but the overseer of the church who happen to live far away is aware of their heretical doctrines and the agenda they have to convert the Christians to their beliefs. Would that overseer not write to the Christian to warn them about such beliefs that will deny the atoning work of the Lord Jesus, his coming in the flesh to redeem mankind from sin.

Indeed such doctrine is heretical that deny that we have no sin, do not need a redeemer but in our own strength can imitate Christ through some mystic exercises.

Philipian 3:12

What does Paul mean by that verse? And what is the difference between the word Perfect in that verse and the word perfect in verse 15.

A little study will show that the Bible uses two Greek words for the English word perfect.

The word “teleios” as in the verse
Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

And, Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect , even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect .

Also see Mt 19:21, Rom 12:2, 1 Co 2:6, 1 Co 13:10, Eph 4:13

And the word “ teleioo” as in the verse
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

And, Lu 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days , as they returned , the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem ; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Also see Lu 13:32, Jn 4:34, Jn 5:36

Why is this difference important to point out?
For this reason: While the Apostle calls the believers “ perfect” in Php 3:15 and he himself would be included in that, yet he in Php 3: 12 says there is yet another perfection beyond which there is no striving.

In other words, he is saying there is not going to b any point in this life where the believer would say: “Ah, I have arrived, I should strive to be perfect no more“. In fact, the day someone will believe that will be the day of their falling. As long as we live in this life we must strive to keep that perfection we obtained in Christ “teleios”, until our resurrected state when we will obtain the final perfection “ teleioo” in our glorifies bodies and will strive no more. But as long as we are here, we can never say: “ I have done so much for the Lord, I have striven enough, I have laboured enough, I have carried my cross enough, I think I will quit here.” Instead we should not look back at what we have already accomplished but look forward striving for the prize of the high calling of Christ.

The lesson then of the passage is that the Christian life is likened into a race, the runner must be physically fit, without ONE single impediment ( perfect) to be able to run, yet at the same time he can never think that his present perfection is sufficient to win him the race, but he must run to the finishing line in order to win the prize, even the resurrection of the dead .
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

UntoBabes,
You are introducing an interesting paradox. I love paradoxes in the Scriptures, because they reveal rich truths that stretch our minds to understand the depth of the wisdom of God. Yes, we have rest in Christ; He has accomplished salvation for us. Nevertheless, we beat our bodies so as to not be disqualified for the prize. Precious truth! Both rest and zeal at the same time! The intensity of it! But, we are not compelled by the Law, but we are compelled by the love of Christ (Philippians 3:12; 2Corinthians 5:14).

What a salvation! Glory to God!

Renoncer

Paul says some believers are deceived about the nature of sin:

1 Corinthians 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Paul wrote to the Galatian Christians that those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

John says that who has truly received imputed righteousness are those who practice a lifestyle of practical righteousness:

1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

what then leads up to 1 John 3:9. to check ourselves in like manner.

Note: 1 Cor 6:9 - Eph 5:5 and 1 John 3:7-9 is about possible self-deception, and about not listening to any vain words, but to check the real facts instead.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we have unrepentant sin in our lives, does God see it, or does Jesus cover that, too?

Does Jesus only forgive and cover what has been repented of?

Of course He sees the sin otherwise He would not have to forgive us of anything.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are not schizophrenics with two personalities.

We don't have two natures. We have the spirit of God yet still live in the flesh.

So, we sin and we are to confess our sins so that He may forgive us.

Anyone who says they do not sin is a liar according to God's Word.

Mike

tuc;

Every time I hear someone say all our sins are covered by Christ, I sternly say to myself, how foolish we are, covering only comes from animal sacrifice, including the skins for Adam and Eve.

Thank you for the truth, but it is hard to kick against the goads, but people just keep kicking.

All our sins are never to be remembered ever again, that is how important the Cross is with the finished work of Christ, for sin. Why is God faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness? The Father would be dishonoring the work of His Son if He did not. "If we confess" is for our peace and rest, just knowing all my sins are taken away and when I confess sin, I am agreeing with God that the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the total epitimy of forgiveness in Love and how completely I Need Jesus. Does God hate sin? Yes. When I fall does God hate and abandon me? No, Never.

Thanks again, never covered, but taken away completely.

Amen

In Christ: Phillip

my own take on this subject is simply this..you cannot sin if you are born of God. Which birth does this refer to? That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit..Jesus said. Being born of God is in direct reference to the new man. The new man does not sin..cannot not sin. Why? Because this birth is born of God. God's nature or anything extending from God cannot sin..that new nature simply does not have a sinful capacity..even as God cannot sin.

Albeit, we do sin. This 'we' or who..is the soul-to-flesh person. The old adamic nature still alive in the motions of our physical bodies. Thus through the work of the Holy Spirit we are in a process of becoming spirit-led through faith in Christ within our inner spirit-man.

If I can adjust this verse of scripture just a touch for clarification sake..."Greater is 'he' that is in me (the new man) than 'he' that is in the world (the old man).

This inward 'he' is 'He'..Christ within our hope of glory. "He that is joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT with the Lord. No separation. Not my spirit and Christ's Spirit. The new nature born of God is Christ's Spirit Himself! And cannot sin..PTL! The tricky part is in learning a walk of constant mindfulness and surrender unto the Greater One within us.

1 Jn 3:8-10
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. NASU

Those Muslims that bombed the Twin Towers in 1993 and again in 2001, and are persecuting Christians in their countries, with the Muslim masses rejoicing over these deeds, they are practicing sin.

Similarly, a self described 'Christian' becomes a serial Killer, such a person is practicing sin.

And same if we are harboring hatred toward any of our fellow Christians, we are practicing sin.

Endzone's response was excellent.

And I will answer his questions.

Endzone wrote: "But, have I never really been a Christian? I've sinned a lot since I became a Christian. Have I just been kidding myself all along? Was my friend's interpretation of this verse correct? If we sin once after we become a Christian we weren't really Christians?"

Actually, The Apostle John answered your question from the same letter, 1 John:

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

The words I put in bold informs us from scripture, in the very same letter from the Apostle John, that as long as we live - we will sin, simply because we are imperfect beings.

What the Apostle John warns against in '1 John 3:9' is the 'practicing' of sin:

e.g. Ro 1:28-32

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; NASU

As can be seen, such people were never Christians to begin with.

But we Christians will sin too, but we were saved by the faith of Jesus, we who have accepted Jesus finished work on the cross and His atoning blood as washing away all our sins for all time, and by which we also have fellowship with God via Jesus finished work on the cross and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, by WHOM we are transformed over time to do the good that God always wanted us to do, and through WHOM we have a daily fellowship with God, as it were in the Garden of Eden. Let us not hide when we sin, all we need to do is to "CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."

It is God who transforms us. We are an ongoing, growing disciples.

Php 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. NASU

Tuc;

"Every time I hear someone say all our sins are covered by Christ, I sternly say to myself, how foolish we are, covering only comes from animal sacrifice, including the skins for Adam and Eve.

Christinyou: "Thank you for the truth, but it is hard to kick against the goads, but people just keep kicking."

I plead guilty. I agree with both of you that our sins are taken away.

hi, our sins were taken away but the bible also says be sure you sins will find you out. a lady here at the ministry was on the staff fell into sin with young man and backslid for a few weeks. the results(within a few months)she lost her job, lost her kids,evicted. an ex druggy here was in bible college and working in security when his brother came and brought drugs with him causing the student to backslide... results:lost job,evicted,expelled, hospitalized, almost jailed. both are serving the Lord now. if you overeat you will probably have joint problems or other health problemsetc. etc.jimp

by jimp on 2011/9/6 18:23:03

"hi, our sins were taken away but the bible also says be sure you sins will find you out. a lady here at the ministry was on the staff fell into sin with young man and backslid for a few weeks. the results(within a few months)she lost her job, lost her kids,evicted. an ex druggy here was in bible college and working in security when his brother came and brought drugs with him causing the student to backslide... results:lost job,evicted,expelled, hospitalized, almost jailed. both are serving the Lord now. if you overeat you will probably have joint problems or other health problemsetc. etc.jimp"

Yes, I believe what you wrote, Jimp.

I like to think I have a good relationship with God. I Love Him (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and He me. I acknowledge His presence wherever I go, whatever I do. I am an open book to Him in that I share all of me, both good and bad. My faults overwhelm me. Looking back - would've, could've, should've, haunt me. But I trust in Him to work His good will in me and for me. I feel like a unpolished pauper who lacks good social skills, grace, compassion, understanding. And by the time I figure out what the right course of action I ought to have taken in diverse situations, the opportunity to bear fruit passed - too little too late. Doing the right thing at the right moment is like Lightning, doing a lesser thing out of sync is like a lightning bug. Sometimes I feel so clumsy, and so embarrassed and ashamed by my faults, failures and missed opportunities, that I ask God to not look upon me. Like Quasimodo addressing a Gargoyle, I ask myself, "Why was I not made of stone like thee?"

Here in Hungary an old evangelist told a story about the fight of the flesh and spirit:
A shepherd has two shepherd dogs, twins. They are same age, same condition, looks the same, except that one of them is black and the other is white.
Each week the old shepherd makes a foot-race for them. No one on earth could tell which will win or lost, except their owner. The old man never was been wrong, he had knew exactly, which dog would be the winner: the balck or the white.
Some asked him, how he knew this. He answered:
Very simple. The week before the foot-race, I starve one of them and feed the other. I close one, but train the other.

It is a very simple, but thrue parabol of fight of flesh and spirit. Which one You choose to be winner? Train and feed it, and parallelly starve and do not let move the other.

by Julius21 on 2011/9/7 4:45:57

"Great analogy, Kono.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

I am always wary when people base their theology on a single verse without tying it to the overall message of the Letter, in this case Romans. Paul makes it clear in Romans and in Galatians that the Mosaic Law kept those under the Mosaic Laws focused on sin continuously, thereby causing sin to increase, such is human nature. It's like riding a bike or a motorcycle, where we look is where we go.

How does Romans 6:16 fit in with Paul's overall argument in the first 8 chapters of Romans, that we, who accepted Jesus shed Blood as atonement for our sins, and by which we are saved by the faith of Jesus, and this, a gift from God to us, to us who believe God and accept the gift? And his ultimate statement in the 8th Chapter:

Ro 8:1-17

1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Romans 8:1 is a factual statement. And walking by faith, I believe it is a true statement. I have the indwelling Holy Spirit in me, My helper in my daily walk with God. Julius, do you believe Romans 8:1 applies to you?]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh — 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, " Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. NASU

To discuss whether Christians sin we should define sin and consider its consequences.
Regarding consequences of sin we know the wages of sin is death.
And regarding definitions of sin, God’s definitions of sin are the only ones to use. Man’s definitions are too ambiguous.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:

1: Mark3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
This sin will not be forgiven.
Christians do not commit this sin.

2: John16:9 Unbelief in Jesus.
This is the sin the world is convicted of.
Christians do not commit this sin either.

3: 1John5:17 “all unrighteousness is sin”.
Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.

4: 1John3:4 “Sin is transgression of the law”.
This is breaking the 10 commandments.
Christians do not sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. In fact those under it were SET FREE from it Rom8:2.

Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that “whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” Romans3:19,20.

And “the law was NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” 1Tim1:9

Also, “where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.

Rom6:2 asks “HOW shall we that are dead to sin, live in it any longer?”

1John3:9 answers this question.
“Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he CANNOT sin, because he has been born of God”.

Also consider 1Pet4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner.
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. You can’t be both.

Jesus truly set us free from sin (John8:34-36)

I hope this is of help.

If we have no sin of the flesh, then why these scriptures?

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I see the being born from above and that the Christ in us is not any sin found in Him. We have His Seed in us and it remains and connot sin. I see the my Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ and without it I am, "none of His. I also see my soul/mind being renewed to the Mind of Christ which Paul says we now have.

So if, "any man sin", it is the flesh still warring with the Spirit. If the flesh cannot sin then we need no resurrection or changing in the twinkling of an eye.

So, can the flesh still sin as a "any man"? Yes; that is why we have an Advocate with the Father that in our confession God our Father is faithful and just to forgive our flesh sins. Our conviction to this flesh sinning is the Holy Spirits function to convict all of sin, then we can confess and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. We will still be in the flesh and it is not perfect and can sin, less and less as we renew our minds to the mind of Christ, but we still have the flesh that must be renewed by resurrection of changing in the twinkling of an eye, at the coming for His Bride, Jesus Christ will accomplish the final work in our flesh and we will then be perfect. For now I know I am perfect in Spirit by His Spirit that is in me, and my mind is becoming perfect by the renewing of my mind to His mind. Still not perfect in this flesh, yes it is quickened to contain the God nature in Christ Jesus but the flesh is not perfected yet with a new body like His, then an only then will we be made perfect wholely and complete.

Psalms 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psalms 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Christinyou,

You quoted various scriptures some of which compare a Christian's prior (unsaved) sinful state with their new (saved) "quickened" state where they are no longer sinners.

However, your question "If we have no sin of the flesh, then why these scriptures?", I assume was refering just to 1John 1:8 and 2:1-2.

Firstly, what "SIN" do you think these verses speak of?

It can't speak of blasphemy of Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) as that sin will not be forgiven.

It can't speak of transgressing the law (1John3:4) for Christians as we are not under the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 3:19, Rom 4:15).

It can't speak of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) for Christians as we do believe on Jesus.

It can't speak of the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17) for Christians as we are righteous in Christ.

So it would appear these verses in 1John speak to NON-Christians, as they are without Christ and remain in sin.

And if we read 1John1 from the beginning you will note it's evangelical context.

Verse 2"bear witness and shew unto you that eternal life"
Verse 3"declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship...with the Father , and with His Son Jesus Christ"

Verse 6 "if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (without Christ), we lie and do not the truth"

Here we see the context of 1John1 declaring eternal life to those in darkness (without Christ). They are still in sin and need to confess, be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

And those who turn to Christ are born of God (1John5:1) and as 1John3:9 explains "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin".

The Spirit which is our new born again spirit cannot die.

The soul of the born again will live eternally by the mind of Christ and our regeneration unto eternal life.

Why must the flesh die or be changed in the twinkling of an eye, if it is perfect and cannot sin, why death?

Can the flesh still sin?

This is very conflicting to me. I am willing to conceed that I am perfect in Christ, my spirit having eternal partaking of devine nature, but the flesh still wars against the spirit and I believe the flesh can still sin.

Why is my spirit perfect before God and my mind is only becoming perfect as it is renewed to the mind of Christ. Why was my soul/mind not made perfect when my spirit became the Spirit of Christ. I believe the soul/mind is where the love afair with God comes into action, I want to love God now that I know Him, my free will and choice, but my old man mind must learn how to love Him and that takes the renewing of my old man mind to the Mind of Christ who loved the Father perfect, this I am learning and will be learning to love God throughout all eternity. I love Him because He first loved me and gave His life for me.

If you have a remedy for the flesh not having to die because of its inability to be perfect until It becomes a new body like His in resurrection or changing in the twinkling of an eye, I would like to see it in scripture.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Christinyou,

I note that you end your posts with a quote from scripture, "Christ in you the hope of glory".

And with Christ in us we are:
Sanctified (Heb 10:10),
Perfected (Heb 10:14),
Holy (Rom 10:16)
Righteous (and NOT sinners) (1Peter 4:18)

You can trust God that with Christ in you, you are all of the above.

Yes the mystery revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ, I am in you. "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Yes, I believe all these scriptures you wrote to be true and that in the eyes of God our Father, I am perfect because of the work of Christ, finished on the Cross. So why must this flesh body I live in die, if it is perfect? Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom, why? Why is there still a war not of the flesh but in the spiritual rhelm?

In Christ: Phillip

John 3:9 is represented differently in different Versions of Bible:
My NASB states :-
No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God.
NIV states:-
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

We already know what NKJ states as it is already posted by Original poster.

I think what NIV gives here is much accurate description of the scripture. By saying this I am not supporting NIV and nor I am saying NKJ is never accurate. Let NKJ be the most accurate in representing scripture. But in the context in which John says NIV makes sense to me.
Because if NKJ is right then 1 John 8 is contradicting to John 3:9
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

A believer falling into Sin is possible; it is like a Cat falling in dirty water. It immediately gets up and cleans itself by tongue. But an unbeliever sinning is like a pig falling into dirty water, enjoying the impurity.
So a believer in Christ Jesus will never continue Sinning and enjoying the passing pleasures of Sin. He will immediately repent and set things straight before God. But an unbeliever will never feel bad for dishonoring God.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

This verse has the same expression of He, His, him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How are we born of God, Just like Jesus, by the Seed (sperma) of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit, we too are born from above and His Seed, Jesus Christ remains in us and He, Jesus Christ cannot sin, He is the only One who cannot sin. Making no conflict in 1 John 1:8 and 3:9

This does not mean "does not practice sin". It means that the incorruptable Seed, the Word of God Himself lives in us and it is He that cannot sin, that is why we "any man" who sins has an advocate with the Father living in him, and if we confess, God is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, because of His Seed in us, Jesus Christ in you the hope of glory.

1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What is pleasing to God? """That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."""

We that are in Him and He in us, cannot sin because of His Seed that liveth in us, but "any man" can sin in the flesh.

1 Peter 1:21-25 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

"any man"; 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if (((any man))) sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

What is propitiation? Strong's Greek Dictionary
2434. hilasmos
Search for G2434 in KJVSL
ilamoV hilasmos hil-as-mos'
atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator:--propitiation.

Atonement, all it takes for us to be righteous before God, in the flesh, is confess and sin is Atonned for. The Spirit is Perfect, the Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself, the soul/mind is becoming perfect by the renewing of our minds to the Mind of Christ, which we have had from rebirthed salvation, and we will be perfect on resurrection day or the coming for His bride, changed in the twinkling of an eye.

What is confess? Agree and acknowledge to God we have sinned and hate it, and don't want to any more and need His power to set us free, praise God for the Atonement, Jesus Christ the perfect Seed in us and He never has or ever will sin, this is our propituation and forgiveness and freedom. For he whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Christinyou,

Regarding your question about our bodies dying, remember by faith it has died.
Our "old man is crucified with him".
So "If Christ be in you , the body is DEAD because of sin" Rom 8:10

We are waiting for the redemption of our bodies:
"we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" Rom 8:23

There is a war still between the flesh and Spirit (Rom 7:23) so we must endure to the end believing on Jesus. If we continue in Jesus we are righteous and not a sinner.

Hi Sree,

You are correct 1John3:9 does not contradict 1JOhn1:8. But what it shows is that Christians cannot sin.

See my earlier post regarding 1John1:8. It is speaking to those in darkenss (without Christ).

If 1JOhn1:8 was speaking to Christians what "SIN" is it speaking of?

It can't speak of blasphemy of Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) as that sin will not be forgiven.

It can't speak of transgressing the law (1John3:4) for Christians as we are not under the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 3:19, Rom 4:15).

It can't speak of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) for Christians as we do believe on Jesus.

It can't speak of the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17) for Christians as we are righteous in Christ.

As my earlier post explained, when 1John1 is read from the beginning we see it's evangelical context addressing unbelievers.

The NIV version you refer to for 1John3:9 also confirms this saying "No one born of God will continue to sin". Here it says the same as the KJV "cannot sin". To not continue to sin means you stop doing it.
If you continue to sin (i.e being under the law, which also is unbelief in Jesus) then you will be found a transgressor and you continue in sin, and the wages of sin is death.

As 1Peter 4:18 says:
"If the righteous are scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There are 2 groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (saved)
Group 2: Sinner/ungodly (unsaved).

God says we CANT be both righteous and sinner.

Some other scriptures that support 1John3:9 that Christians cannot sin are below.

1Peter 4:1
"Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified)for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (your old man crucified, Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered (Rom 6:6) in the flesh has CEASED from sin,"

1Peter 4:18
"If the righteous are scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Here we see you are either Righteous (saved) OR sinner (unsaved), you cant be both.

Galatians 2:15
"We who are Jews by nature (Romans 2:28,29), and NOT sinners of the Gentiles (unsaved)"

Quote:

"""Regarding your question about our bodies dying, remember by faith it has died.
Our "old man is crucified with him".
So "If Christ be in you , the body is DEAD because of sin" Rom 8:10"""

That means this body of flessh I still live in, still has old man body pulls that war against the spirit. By faith, I know that these fleshly desires are overcome by the Faith of Christ that is in me and my old man mind being renewed by the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ can and will overcome sin. Paul says, "Who will deliver him from the body of this death"? and it is no longer Paul who sins but sin that dwelleth in his flesh. This sin must be confessed also, that we receive the work of the Cross, "cleansing from all unrighteousness". So sin is still present with me and the only way to overcome is Christ, and through confession I am free. "If we confess our sins" Past, present and future, we are cleansed by the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross and His precious blood takes away sin not just cover them.

In John 1:8 9 10 John is also including himself, so this is not just for unbelivers, for Paul says in Rom 7 that he is still fighting the sin in his flesh, but he knows that is no longer him that is sinning but sin that dwelleth in his flesh.

In Christ, Perfect in Christ, still waring with the flesh, and forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness by agreeing with God what sin is and that I hate that which is still with me in the flesh.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Phillip,

Paul's spoke of "another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH which is in my members" Rom 7:23

Did you note it's a battle to NOT be brought into captivity to the (self-righteous works) under the law of SIN and DEATH?

Rom 8:2 says "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death.

The Galatians (chapter 3) where losing this battle and were asked "Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Sin is transgression of the law (1John3:4) and what the law says it says to those UNDER it (Rom 3:19).
Also remember the law is NOT made for a righteous man (christians)...but for sinners (1Tim 1:9).
So HOW can Christians be accused/judged of transgression (SIN) of the law when they are NOT UNDER the law?
Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN) Rom 4:15

To "sin" (transgression of the law) means you are UNDER the law of sin and death. Christians are in a battle as Rom 7:23 says. And this battle is to remain righteous in Christ and NOT be brought into captivity (self-righteous works) UNDER the law of sin and death.

And 1John1:8 is not speaking to Christians. Note the evangelical context from the beginning of the chapter. It declares eternal life to those in darkness (without Christ) so that they too can have fellowship with the Father and his Son.

If 1John1:8 speaks to Christians what "sin" do you think it speaks of?
Christians are NOT UNDER the law, so it cant speak of sin of transgression of the law 1John3:4.
Christians believe on Jesus so it cant speak of sin of unbelief John 16:9.
Christians are righteous in Christ so it cant speak of sin of unrighteousness 1John5:17.
Christians do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit so it cant speak of this sin Mark 3:29.

Hence this is why 1John3:9 says those born of God CANNOT sin.

It's good to see you finish off your posts with "In Christ: Phillip".
Remember we're all in a battle to remain in Christ. We all need to avoid being brought under the captivity of the law of sin and death as to do so you will be found a transgressor (sinner).

paul said the gentiles were with out law ,they were still under law to christ

so christans can still sin againsts christ
paull said in the leter to the corinithans ,that we can wound another concence and therefore sin againsts christ

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[c] that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[d] but under law toward Christ[e])

so in light of that ,with all respect haz ,,the bible teaches a christan can still sin ,but will not continue in sin for gods seed is in him so he will not continue to sin

that is what john is teaching in his letter

Quote: In Christ, Perfect in Christ, still waring with the flesh, and forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness by agreeing with God what sin is and that I hate that which is still with me in the flesh.

You cant be cleansed from all unrighteousness and still have sin remaining in you.

To be cleansed from unrighteousness would mean our heart is cleansed so that our every thought and action would not violate God's law.

Quote: """You cant be cleansed from all unrighteousness and still have sin remaining in you."""

Chirst is in me and He cannot sin. My spirit is perfect before God and cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is why God is faithful and just to do the cleansing, because Christ is in me. He makes me clean and free, indeed in Him am I perfect. If this body was perfect and cleansed from all unrighteousness I would not have to die and be planted in the ground or changed in the twinkling of an eye, my body would translate direct into the kingdom. I don't know of this happening, we all still die. My soul which is joined to my spirit is becoming perfect by the renewing of my old man mind to the mind of Christ, which I will be learning throughout all eternity. The flesh is still sinful but quickened to contain the perfection of Christ born again in me, and also containing the Holy Spirit which temple we are, we will be changed in body, then and only then can this body of flesh and blood enter the kingdom of God. The Spirit-spirit in me, and by faith so is my soul/mind, already is seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Do we still sin? Yes in the flesh, not in the Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ in me, perfect before God. He cannot sin and His Seed remains in me and He is whom we are born from above into and He in us.

In Christ, Perfect: Phillip

You see, God gave to Paul the knowledge of how the three part man works. Body, soul and spirit. This mystery was hidden from the foundation of the world. Paul knew how the three part man works, Christ in you the hope of glory, is the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus, being baptized into One Spirit. The soul/mind must be renewed to the Mind of Christ which we now have in the spirit. The body must be brought into subjection to the Spirit by the soul/mind as we live and breath in this world, our minds being renewed to the mind of Christ, for as He is in this world so are we, and becoming more and more like Him by line upon line and precept upon precept taught every thing Christ said by the Holy Spirit our teacher to each person in Christ, no two being the same. Hairs on our head and no flower petal being the same.

God never ment for the human being created in the garden to live a life in sin and satan being our father because of man believing satan above God and and living our lives according to the great deceiver and liar. He ment us to be in Christ the tree of life but man chose to believe the liar and walk in darkness and die, separated from God, which Christ bridged the gap and made it possible, new birth, to become what God intended before the foundation of the world. Now we are in Christ which God gave provision before the foundation of the world, the Cross. EPH 1:3-4

In Christ: Phillip

So you cant say your cleansed from all unrighteousness and still have sin remaining in you

Quote: Chirst is in me

I don’t doubt that you know Christ…

Quote: If this body was perfect and cleansed from all unrighteousness I would not have to die and be planted in the ground or changed in the twinkling of an eye, my body would translate direct into the kingdom. I don't know of this happening, we all still die.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John doesn’t say the blood of Christ will cleanse us from all sin and from all unrighteousness when we are planted in the ground.

The blood of Christ cleanses us the living Christians from all sin, and if there is sin remaining then we are not cleansed from all sin....

Quote: Do we still sin? Yes in the flesh. not in the Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ in me, perfect before God. He cannot sin and His Seed remains in me and He is whom we are born from above into and He in us.

So your not cleansed from all unrighteousness then……

Quote: """So your not cleansed from all unrighteousness then"""

I beg to differ with you, but Yes that which is born from above in me, the incorruptable Seed of the Father is totally and completely without sin, the Spirit of Christ in me, that is what makes me cleansed from all sin, for His Seed remains in my Spirit and that is where I am perfect. Be ye perfect for I am perfect. Paul says, "who delivered us, who is delivering and who will deliver. Spirit totally delivered, soul/mind being delivered, Body will be delivered.

In Christ, delivered, being delivered and will be delivered: Phillip

Hi brothagary,

You are correct regarding unbelievers without the law are still under law. See Rev 20:12 "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".
Christians however are in the book of life and not judged by the other books (law of sin and death).

Regarding your reference to 1 Cor 8 I would disagree as it speaks of those under law drawing others under law also. This is sin against Christ (unbelief, John 16:9).

I would disagree with your view on 1John1. The context is an evangelical message to those in darkness (without Christ).
If it speaks to Christians, what "sin" do you think it speaks of?

Regarding the "will not continue to sin" doctrine of 1John3:9 do you know what limit of sins this implies?

thanks

Whoever speaks peace to himself upon any one account, and at the same time hath another evil of no less importance lying upon his spirit, about which he hath had no dealing with God, that man cries “Peace” when there is none.

God will justify us from our sins, but he will not justify the least sin in us: “He is a God of purer eyes than to behold iniquity.”

Both quotes by John Owen

hey haz how are you doing 1corinithans 8.9 through 13

clearly shows that paul is talking about a christan sinning against christ verse 9 says this liberty of your

only christans experance liberty bibilical speaking
and he also says the word brother in the contex of christan fellowship

thses is no mention of these being under a law ,drawing people under law ,as you say ,,,

even in the bible speaks out loud about the paul rebuking peter for the sin of hipocracy

we cant water sin down ,and that is what peter did played the hipocreat and acualy was rtrying to make the gentiles live as jews wile he him self lived like the gentile

i john has obviously more then just the evagelical contex toward those in the dark ,,in chapetr 2 12

he said exactly why and who else he wrote the letter to

he said little children
fathers and young men
and alll of these were christan
he said they new him who is from the beginning
they over came the devil there sin were forgiven
and the word of god dweld in them

another apostal said we all stumble in many things

this the sin that is spoken of amoung others

will not contine in sin will not persue sin

will not remain in a life stile of being slaves to sin

but will have the gift of repentance and will not practice sin but will practice righeousness
will grow in holyness

for god seed is in him so he will not practice sin way of life ,,but will literaly HATE SIN

i beieve that is what the contex is brother

bless you

Hi brothagary,

We differ in that I understand 1Cor 8 speaks to those under law leading others under law also. It did not speak of the law of liberty as you suggest. It is speaking to those with "knowledge" of the law.
As you believe it speaks of Christians, I ask what would Christians be doing in the "idols temple"?
And how do you sin against Christ? Unbelief (John16:9). Being under the law is unbelief.

As for your explaination of 1John3:9 as "will not practice sin" this implies of course that there is a limit to sins that God will tolerate. What is this limit (scriptural references if any)? If a professing Christian "practices sin" as you say then that would mean they are not real Christians. I am curious at what point is someone judged to be "practicing sin" thereby proving themselves to be not born of God.

Also have you considered my previous question as to what "sin" is 1John1 speaking of if you believe it speaks to Christians?

Regarding Peter in Galatians 2, Peter was confronted for separating himself from Gentiles when those of the physical circumcision came. He was warned not to fall under the law (verses 16-21). If anyone were to be overcome by it that would be sin (James 1:15).

Did you note Galatians 2:15?
"We who are Jews by nature (Rom 2:28,29), and NOT SINNERS of the Gentiles" (un-believers).
Again here we see another scripture showing that Christians are NOT sinners.

And how do you see 1Peter 4:18?
"If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear"

We are EITHER righteous OR a sinner. You CANT be both, according to God's word.

blessings

We are EITHER righteous OR a sinner. You CANT be both,

But I am!

according to God's word.

The only clear distinction I see in scripture, certainly in Jesus’ parables about the kingdom of heaven, is the wheat and the chaff, those in and those outside. And the time to judge is not now. In fact, our natural propensity is to judge incorrectly. No doubt, that is because of our tendency to view sin in terms of behaviours, rather than in terms of one’s relationship to God – their position related to the kingdom.
In other words, a redeemed person cannot be unredeemed (and live accordingly)

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”.

Just wondering: Can you apply that idea to the scriptures under discussion?

Diane

hi haz wont have time to answer all your questions ,,must go to works

but first ,you mis read my post
i never said law of liberty

but i said liberty as verse 9 says
liberty is refuring to the freedom that a christan can experance and liberty of concence ,,,he also as i said called the one who was wonded as a brother
and paull also put him self as a christan in the place of the one who he is rebuking showing that he is talking about one like him self who is another brother and a believer

why would a christan eat in an idols temple ,,one reason liberty to preach the gosple ,,,this is why paul this liberty of yours become a stumbleing block

none of this relates to a lost sinner
but one who is redemed

sinners dont need to wathch out regardign becoming a stubling block ,they are allready a stumbing block

pual also talks about when you sin againsts the brethern which is in othets words a believer ,,,,,no were in scripture is a lost sinner called a brother ,but maby a heathen

all what paul is saying has no relvance toward one who is lost an unregenerat
in those days thats what lost gentile did ,they eat things scraficed to idols

what sin is doesn john mention ,in the leter he writes
what i think is irelevent in the first chapter he speaks of a few differnt sins

through out the whole letter he speake of others

i must go to work ,,so i will talk to you later

blessings

Hi Dianne,

You say you are righteous and a sinner, but you do not say why nor offer any scripture to support that claim. Hence I'm uncertain about your point.

haz27

Hi brothagary,

Scipture confirms scripture. The sin the world is convicted of is the sin of unbelief in Jesus (John16:9) and this is the sin against Christ 1Cor8 refers to. Anyone who leads others into unbelief are themselves sinning against Christ.

Scripture often speaks of brothers, but looking at its context you can determine whether it speaks of brothers in Christ or not. You cant assume "brother" always refers to fellow Christians.

The law is a stumbling block to Christians.
Rom 7:23 regarding the battle within us it says:
"But I see another law in my members (self-righteous works of law), warring against the law of my mind (Spirit), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members".

Galatains 2:18 warns: "For if I build again those things which I destroyed (self-righteous works of law), I make myself a transgressor (sinner).

Paul often speaks out against turning to the law of sin and death. This is consistent with the 2 scriptures discussed above. It is one of the main themes the Bible speaks of.
Your looking at "sin" in lifestyle terms when scripture defines it as unbelief in Jesus or transgression of the law of sin and death.
Anyone under the law will be found a transgressor (sinner). And to be under the law is unbelief as such would not be submitting to the righteousness of God.

I suggest not defining "sin" in lifestyle/behaviour terms. That is inconsistent with scripture and causes confusion.
This is why I ask you to explain what sin 1john1 speaks of.

1John1 speaks to those in darkness (without Christ) as it is they that are in sin (unbelief) and this is the sin the world is convicted of.
I have found that those who argue that it speaks to Christians struggle to explain what sin it speaks of.

But consider that 1John3;9 Christians "cannot sin" is consistent with the other scriptures I showed you in previous post.
We are either righteous OR a sinner. We cant be both.
Jesus truly set us free from sin (John8:36)

blessings

hi haz

the scrpture also comfirms that the world is convicted of many other sin other then unbelif ,, that is beside the point ,,,,,,,

the scriture i posted had nothing to do with unbelief ,but on the contrary ,,the liberty of a believer to eat things that were sarficed to an idol,and that being the stubling block to a weak person who as the scripture says as the concenece of an idol,

i dont doubt what you said that the law is a stumbling block to a christan ,,,,that proves what im saying that a christan can stumble and sin ,and temperarly back slide so to speak ,,,hence the word stumbling block

as you posted gla,2.18 ,,,paul if he builds again,those things wich he has torn down ,,HE MAKES HIMSELF a transgresor,,,showkng that he as a christan can still fall into sin ,,that is why he wrote it like he did and include him self ,,,,,that is why he rebuked peter for doing exactly that

i think it fine to talk about the gentiles sinning as a way of life ,the bible teaches that ,,,and it complient to speak of sinning seperat for the law ,,,becasue the bible says ,,,those who sin with out law will perish with out law

john 1 must be kept in contex with john 2,which clearly mentions why he wrote the letter as i said before ,becasue of little children
fathers
and young men ,who where all in christ

i find what the stuggle is that some people see the need to define the sin mentioned ,when the bible cleary already shows the many sins that can be commited by a christan

christans can not sin must be kept in the full bibilcal contex ,regarding the rest of the leter,and the rest of the bible ,not just some select verse that have been picked out

i agree a saint is not a lost sinner

but a saint can still sin

that is what the bible teaches

im not saying that a saint can loses his salvation

i believe in the persaverence of the saints

all the warnings in the scripture againsts the lusts of the flesh and the concence walking in holness are writern for our admonashings ,,so that we do not fall in to sin

a christian only needs to let his toung slip in contention ,and he sins

the book of acts ,shows that even the apostals had contention ,and refused to fellowship in there mission with other believers

bless you haz

You say you are righteous and a sinner, but you do not say why nor offer any scripture to support that claim. Hence I'm uncertain about your point.

Perhaps my lack of clarity is related to some fuzziness regarding the actual definitions. It looks like you have been wrestling with that already – and covering the scriptures.

I was responding only to your own post, but I should have asked these questions first:

Is “sinner” meant to be synonymous with unregenerate? And is “righteous” referring to the all those regenerated - in general? From that perspective nobody cannot be both – and me neither.

But surely, unless we are in a state of denial, we would never perceive ourselves to be without sin. That in itself is a state of sin because it is blindness – living a lie. A Christian, if he/she is truly redeemed, will not remain in this state, because of the Spirit’s inner work of conviction. The unredeemed would have no receptivity to the Spirit’s work. He is hostile to the Spirit (God) – and in that sense, be a “blasphemer” of the Spirit. You can’t be saved (authentically) apart from receptivity to the Spirit. Is that not so?

Wouldn’t you think that a professing Christian who thinks he cannot sin because he is declared righteous (in his understanding) is a deluded person – if not dangerous? I would not want that person to be trying to remove any “specks” from my eyes! He’s like a surgeon who does not know the depth of his blindness.

Diane

Why is the Word of God sharper than a two edged sword? To separate the Spirit from the soul. Where are we saved completely? In Spirit, if we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His. Where does the Holy Spirit do His work? The Holy Spirit works in our soul/mind where we have the working of the three part man, Spirit, Soul, Body. Just like God, so are we in His image, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is Spirit and no man has seen Him, the Son is the exact image of the Father and we have seen Him as a man in the scriptures. In whom we see Him no more, 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, ((((yet now henceforth know we him no more.)))) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This new creature is not changed immediatly in the soul/mind or the flesh, that is the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ and quickening our bodies and sealing us into Christ by His Spirit born again in us.

This is the only place we cannot sin, because His Seed, the sperma of God our Father, The Spirit of Christ remains in us and He cannot sin. "Incorruptable Seed"

If we walk in the Spirit we don't have to sin, so we are admonished to walk in the Spirit. Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

But if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ and by His propitiation we can be cleansed from any sin we commit, when we agree with God that sin is sin and we confess, we are forgiven and even cleansed from all unrighteousness, which is Christ in us the Hope of Glory.
This is the Gospel by which we will be judged, Paul's final Gospel given Him direct from Jesus Christ Himself.
Romans 16:25-27 (((((Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery,))))) which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

How are we established and What is this mystery? Paul's Gospel; Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What fulfills the Gospel? The mystery now made manifest to all the saints, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory". This is the only place we cannot sin, In Him by His Spirit that dwells in us.

So let us walk in the Spirit so we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh. But?

It is Christ in you that is perfect and it is He only that presents us perfect to the Father, That is why John can say we that are born from above do not sin, and if "any man" sin: 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And (((((if any man sin,))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice not if we sin, because Christ in us cannot sin, but (((((If any man sin,))))) which is me not walking in the spirit, even then I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He is the propitiation by the Cross.

In Christ: It is no longer I who live, yet I do, HOW?: Gal 2:16-20Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The life of Christ in me the Hope of Glory:

Phillip

Thanks again and again, Phillip for the consistency of your message

With you,in Christ

David

Quote: That means this body of flesh I still live in, still has old man body pulls that war against the spirit. By faith, I know that these fleshly desires are overcome by the Faith of Christ that is in me and my old man mind being renewed by the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ can and will overcome sin. and that I hate that which is still with me in the flesh.

Paul describes your quote above like this Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

What you are describing is a Carnal Christian (carnal, sold under sin Roms 7:14)

Quote: Paul says, "Who will deliver him from the body of this death"? and it is no longer Paul who sins but sin that dwelleth in his flesh. This sin must be confessed also, that we receive the work of the Cross, "cleansing from all unrighteousness".

Quote: So sin is still present with me and the only way to overcome is Christ, and through confession I am free. "If we confess our sins" Past, present and future, we are cleansed by the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross and His precious blood takes away sin not just cover them.

What is the work of the cross in relation to the body of death?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer serve sin.

Confession will not deal with the Sin that dwells in the flesh, the only thing deals with Sin that dwells in the flesh is the baptism into death.

Those who are baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death Romans 6:23

This baptism into Christ is not water baptism. Water baptism will not deal with sin that dwells in the flesh. Baptism into Christ is Baptism with Holy Ghost it is this baptism that deals with Sin in the flesh allowing us to walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh Rom 8:3

The Law could not condemned sin in the flesh because of the weakness of flesh, a savior God own Son was sent to condemn sin in the flesh. The sentence has been passed our old man is crucified with him are we set free that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us we only have to believe it by faith.

With the old nature gone and the new nature reigning we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. Where we stop stating Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. To this for the good that I would I do, and the evil which I would not, I do not.

Quote: In Christ, Perfect in Christ, still waring with the flesh, and forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness by agreeing with God what sin is

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

When Paul spoke this verse what he is saying is I am crucified with Christ my old man is dead nevertheless I still live, but not I (the old man) but Christ the new man. There is no warring against the sin in flesh as the new nature the new man lives...

Paul’s spirit is born again and his soul (heart) which is his mind will and emotions have been cleansed from all unrighteousness by the faith in the Son of God….

Quote: """You cant be cleansed from all unrighteousness and still have sin remaining in you."""

The reason I wrote this was not to try and get you thinking about what your saying. Your saying that the carnal Christianity is the normal Christian life and the sad way you are right it is the normal life of a Christian.

As we go on in the Christian life we must realize that there is something wrong within, we sin and then cry out for forgiveness to find that in short period of time we are back crying out forgiveness. There is something wrong there is an inner bent the Adamic sinful nature still remains….

Should we continue in sin? Can a Holy God be satisfied to have unholy children, Children who still have Adamic (Old man) sinful nature.

God has surely therefore made adequate provision that we should be set free from sin's dominion that is what I hope I have touched on above briefly.

Amen,

Quote: """Should we continue in sin? Can a Holy God be satisfied to have unholy children, Children who still have Adamic (Old man) sinful nature.

God has surely therefore made adequate provision that we should be set free from sin's dominion that is what I hope I have touched on above briefly."""

I don't have an old man nature, just a old man mind being changed to the Mind of Christ, and a flesh body that must die or be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

My Father is satisfied with me as His Child or He would not have given me new birth in Christ Jesus. "YOU must be born again", I am, and it is He, Jesus Christ who my Father depends on to make and complete in me, to become one of My Father's sons. He began His work in me and He has made it plain, He will complete His work in me by His Son. Why would the wind blow, then depend on me to make of myself a new creature, which no man can, has or could accomplish. Only in Christ am a I a new creature in Christ. A new creation, a new race of people, children of God in Christ Jesus, with His nature being change from darkness to light.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ is not just a label, it is a reality, I am a son of God by the Christ in me.

Hi Dianne,

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I've been busy and the little internet time I've been getting lately is regularly interrutpted. Here's a brief response to your post.

You said: "Wouldn’t you think that a professing Christian who thinks he cannot sin because he is declared righteous (in his understanding) is a deluded person – if not dangerous? I would not want that person to be trying to remove any “specks” from my eyes! He’s like a surgeon who does not know the depth of his blindness."

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. We can't rely on this to save us. But in Christ we are righteous.
Also holy. Rom 11:16 "if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy".
"And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin" Rom 8:10.

We need to remain in Christ and not go under the law. Check out the context of the log in the eye. It's speaking of juging by the law. And if we remain under the law then to transgress it is sin (1John3:4) and this is unbelief anyway, which is the sin the world is convicted of, (John16:9).

blessings
haz

Hi brothagary,

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I've been busy with little time for internet and the time I do get is often interrupted. Here's a try at a brief response to your post.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief (John16:9). And anyone in unbelief is judged according to their works under the books of the law (Rev 20:12).
Christians will be in the book of life as they are righteous/holy/sanctified/perfected/justified in Christ.

For a Christian to sin they would be going under the law and will then be found a transgressor (sin). If they are overcome by it and remain under the law then they are like a dog returning to its vomit.

It's important to use God's definitions of sin though. The ambiguous general definitions traditionally used only causes confusion and often condemnation too when reading scripture.

blessing
haz

It's important to use God's definitions of sin though. The ambiguous general definitions traditionally used only causes confusion and often condemnation too when reading scripture.

Insightful point, Haz. There are a variety of biblical meanings and uses for the word, sin - not just one. A Greek lexicon is helpful here. Actually, a thorough word study helps too. Here’s where the commentaries and dictionaries are so useful. There are people who have already done the hard work – and are more skilled to do it than most of us.

You might want to google the word “hamartology” (the study of sin) and see where it takes you.

I think you present a wise caution: In being hasty in forming conclusions about a theological matter - without first doing the exegesis work – you can get a good deal of confusion - especially on a topic as mammoth as "sin".

Still - it's worth plodding on .....

Happy studies!

Diane

hi haz you said in your post

For a Christian to sin they would be going under the law and will then be found a transgressor (sin). If they are overcome by it and remain under the law then they are like a dog returning to its vomit.

are you saying that a christan can sin

that was all i was saying befor and you disagred and said they cant

i agree that if a professing christan is over come by sin ,and falls away ,,,,he will be judged by the law

the only difference is , i believe the bible teaches that he was never a true christan,,,,but that is another topic

blessings

Hi brothagary,

Yes, a Christian can be tempted into sin (James 1:14,15), but I am not referring to the traditionally held view of sins being lifestyle behaviours (coveting, stealing, etc).

We see in Heb 12:1 a warning to Christians "let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us".

Gal 2:18 gives a similar warning. "For if I build again the things which I destroyed (self-righteous works of law), I make myself a transgressor".

For a Christian to go under the law they sin in 2 ways. They will be found a transgressor of the law of sin and death AND they also will be in unbelief. To be under the law is seeking to establish your own righteousness and therefore not submitting to the rightesouness of God
Rom 10:3.

Galatians 3 addresses such a group. Having begun in the Spirit they then sought to be made perfect by the flesh.

Christians are righteous only in Christ. To be outside of this is sin.

blessings
haz

1 John 1;7

If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

When we die and allow Jesus to live in us which is a daily 24 hour process we cannot sin because he Jesus by his Holy Spirit is doing the work in us and Jesus cannot sin, but the moment we stop dieing and allow our flesh to live then it is us that has sinned not Jesus

Thank God for his Love and Grace
1 John 1;9
If we confess our sins he is Faithful and Just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness

Let us all die daily as Paul said It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me so that God can glorify himself in us first so that we can then glorify him with what people see in our daily walk.
We are seated with Christ {now} in the heavenly place Ephesians 2;4-5 and we can enter into the throne of God (now)with boldness because Jesus is our High Priest

Let us all be as Adam and Eve were in the beginning before they sinned, let us be totally naked with Christ not trying to hide anything in our lives, He sees all things and knows all things.
What freedom it is to rest in Jesus every day not trying to hide anything, perfect love casts out all fear Jesus is alive today he lives within my heart and is manifested every moment of the day
Let us Love all and Forgive all with a pure heart.

Quote: """Let us all be as Adam and Eve were in the beginning before they sinned,"""

No thank you, We don't have to make a choice, which threw the whole world into sin, anymore, we have the Tree of Life Himself birthed in us, God's Choice, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Quote: """ let us be totally naked with Christ not trying to hide anything in our lives, He sees all things and knows all things."""

For this, yes we are, Amen

In Christ: Phillip