Obey Your Leaders and Submit To Them (Heb. 13:17) by Zac Poonen

Where you have confidence in your local church-elders, it is easy to submit to them in all matters. But perhaps you do not have confidence in your elders. Then, you must distinguish between church matters and personal matters, so that you know clearly where you have to submit to your elders and where you don't have to.

Church matters:
Church matters include the conduct of the meetings of the church, the spiritual direction the church is going, the emphasis in the ministry of that church, the activities arranged by the church, etc., etc. In such matters, there must always be total submission to the directions given by the elders. This is not because you respect them as mature brothers, or because you have confidence in them, but just because they are the shepherds in the church in which God has placed you - provided you are sure that God has placed you there.

Jesus submitted to Joseph and Mary, even though they were imperfect and less mature than Him, because His Father had placed Him in their home. That was how He began opening the new and living way through His flesh - in Nazareth during His first 30 years.

We must never forget this fact that the first steps of the new and living way were opened by Jesus through submission to imperfect authorities at home. All the other steps came later.

You must never be the cause of strife in any church - for God hates those who sow discord among the brothers - however spiritual or zealous they may consider themselves to be (Prov.6:16-19). Rebellion against God-appointed leadership is always Satanic. It is the way of Korah (Jude 11; Numbers 16), and is always the result of pride and arrogance.
If, however, you are not sure that God has placed you in a particular church, then you must consider before God whether you should leave that church and join another one. But you must never stay in a church and create confusion there, for God will never tolerate that.

Neither should you be like a visitor in a church, eating the `food' there as you would in a restaurant, with no sense of responsibility. The church is not a restaurant, but a home. So you must commit yourself totally to some local church; otherwise, you will not grow spiritually. Remember, however, that you will never find an ideal church, for every church is imperfect. But, look for a church that is closest to the Word of God - as you understand it at present.

If you feel some time that you should bring in a new emphasis (that is lacking) into a church, then the proper way to do it is by first discussing the issue with the elder brothers, and then to do exactly as they direct. The improper way is to bring in your emphasis in the meetings by preaching the Word in contradiction to the direction set by the elders. If you disagree strongly with your elders in any matter, and feel that you cannot submit to their eldership, or if you feel that the elders are leading the church in a wrong direction, then remember that you are always free to leave such a church and start one of your own, with the emphasis that you feel is necessary and important.

If God is with you, He will bless you in your new step - as He blessed Martin Luther, John Wesley, William Booth, Watchman Nee and many others in many lands, through the centuries, who left their original churches and started new ones, under the direction of God. If, however, you are acting in your own stubbornness, and God is not with you, you will find yourself following in the footsteps of Theudas and Judas of Galilee (Acts 5:36,37) and many thousands of others in these twenty centuries of Christianity, who started new movements and ended up in confusion and frustration finally.

Personal matters:
Personal matters include matters such as what clothes you wear, how you spend your money, what sort of house you choose to live in, where or how you travel (by air or by train), what clothes you and your family members wear, what food you eat, what toys you buy for your children, whether your children play computer games or not, whether you allow your children to watch sporting events on a neighbour's television or not, what job you take, where you work, etc. In such matters, you have perfect freedom to do whatever you feel you should do. You don't have to obey or even consult your elders in such matters, if you don't have confidence in them. If you are in doubt about some such matter, you could even consult an older brother in another place, if you have more confidence in that brother than in your local elders. The final decision in such matters, however, is always yours. There is no rebellion in doing things differently in such matters, unless your elders feel that your conduct or your dress or your children are a stumbling-block to others in the church - in which case, you must be willing to listen to what they have to tell you about it.

The way of wisdom then is to distinguish between where you must submit to the elders in a church, and where you don't have to. A lack of confidence in your local elders does not mean that you are rebellious - for not all elder brothers are spiritually minded, and not all elder brothers necessarily inspire confidence. But if you end up submitting to no-one anywhere, then it is easy for you to become a law unto yourself, and thus become an easy target for Satan to knock off and destroy. May God help us all to walk in the way of wisdom at all times.

Where you have confidence in your local church-elders, it is easy to submit to them in all matters. But perhaps you do not have confidence in your elders.

Actually, I think you always are suppose to have confidence in God and test everything, like the Bereans, to see "if these things are so".

Like Mikey2 said, You submit to the Lord in someone. So I would say that you have confidence in the Holy Spirit. And you submit to them matter by matter, not "ALL MATTERS".

Church matters include the conduct of the meetings of the church, the spiritual direction the church is going, the emphasis in the ministry of that church, the activities arranged by the church, etc., etc. In such matters, there must always be total submission to the directions given by the elders. This is not because you respect them as mature brothers, or because you have confidence in them, but just because they are the shepherds in the church in which God has placed you - provided you are sure that God has placed you there.

This is a bit scary. "Total submission". First of all, Jesus Christ is in charge of where the church is going and even if you are an elder, we are all brothers and all brothers should be allowed to be in any meeting regarding the church and all brothers should be involved in any decision that could affect them and their family. Steven Kaung once said, that the church does not move forward in an area or decision that affects all brothers unless all the brothers have peace from the Lord about it.

Jesus submitted to Joseph and Mary, even though they were imperfect and less mature than Him, because His Father had placed Him in their home. That was how He began opening the new and living way through His flesh - in Nazareth during His first 30 years.

We must never forget this fact that the first steps of the new and living way were opened by Jesus through submission to imperfect authorities at home. All the other steps came later.

We are all imperfect. It is the Lord in each one of us that is perfect. This is not even relevant, as we are all imperfect. Joseph and Mary were his father and mother and Jesus submitted to them because it pleased His father. You are not supposed to use it as an example to persuade people to submit to other people by telling them that "Jesus submitted to imperfect people and so should you".

Again, this is missing the point of submission, why to do it and who to submit to.

You must never be the cause of strife in any church - for God hates those who sow discord among the brothers - however spiritual or zealous they may consider themselves to be (Prov.6:16-19). Rebellion against God-appointed leadership is always Satanic. It is the way of Korah (Jude 11; Numbers 16), and is always the result of pride and arrogance.

If, however, you are not sure that God has placed you in a particular church, then you must consider before God whether you should leave that church and join another one. But you must never stay in a church and create confusion there, for God will never tolerate that.

Totally agree with that. If you are going to place yourself in a religious organization, then please obey their rules. They did not ask you to join, you joined on your own, so that means that you went in wide-eyed, knew their rules (extra biblical in some cases), and still decided to join. If you cause strife and division, then your are doing the work of Satan.

Neither should you be like a visitor in a church, eating the `food' there as you would in a restaurant, with no sense of responsibility. The church is not a restaurant, but a home. So you must commit yourself totally to some local church; otherwise, you will not grow spiritually. Remember, however, that you will never find an ideal church, for every church is imperfect. But, look for a church that is closest to the Word of God - as you understand it at present.

Actually, most churches are not homes, but organizations. In my home, I don't mind visitors that drop in once in awhile. It is always good to see them and we just pick up where we left off the last time we fellowshipped. They can eat my food and have my time and we always grow spiritually when we see each other. I actually prefer informal and non-scheduled fellowship. The Lord is quite spontaneous. That is the nature of "Life". In most organizations, the thing that is missing is LIFE, because everything is so regimented and choreographed just perfectly. It's a great show, that's for sure, but it is missing LIFE. So, drop in anytime and eat my food and fellowship with me.

If you feel some time that you should bring in a new emphasis (that is lacking) into a church, then the proper way to do it is by first discussing the issue with the elder brothers, and then to do exactly as they direct. The improper way is to bring in your emphasis in the meetings by preaching the Word in contradiction to the direction set by the elders. If you disagree strongly with your elders in any matter, and feel that you cannot submit to their eldership, or if you feel that the elders are leading the church in a wrong direction, then remember that you are always free to leave such a church and start one of your own, with the emphasis that you feel is necessary and important.

In my church, one can stand up and speak forth the Word of God and the elders don't mind. They don't see the church as being theirs, but belonging to God. I appreciate this freedom. We are all submitting to God, even the Elders. In fact, my elders don't see it this way at all that we need to be submitting everything we want to say or do in a meeting to them first. They are afraid of quenching the spirit and would rather that we speak forth what God has placed in our hearts. Everything is always done decently and in order and many get a chance to share what God has placed on their hearts.

This shows me that they also have to have confidence in God that He will lead every member of the Church correctly. When we make too many rules about interacting with each other, we quench life. Do you make all these rules in your family. No. Mostly, interactions and relationships are spontaneous and not surrounded by rules.

Jesus, took some of the dumbest questions from his disciples in front of everyone. He never told them to clear their questions with him first because it may cause someone to stumble and stop following him.

A lack of confidence in your local elders does not mean that you are rebellious - for not all elder brothers are spiritually minded, and not all elder brothers necessarily inspire confidence.

Thank you for saying that!

But if you end up submitting to no-one anywhere, then it is easy for you to become a law unto yourself, and thus become an easy target for Satan to knock off and destroy. May God help us all to walk in the way of wisdom at all times.

Remember, when there is no one to submit to (in prison for instance), you always should be submitting to the Holy Spirit.

It just amazes me how many teachings there are that try to keep people submitting to man as if something terrible is going to happen if we don't somehow keep the organizations humming along. I think the reason there is so much teaching on subission, is because there are so many false leaders and people leave these organizations. So, the only way to get them to stay, is to teach them that they should submit to imperfect men and in doing this they will please God.

How about this?

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Who do we have confidence in?

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Here Paul talks about commanding us, but this refers to him ministering the Word and building up the church. Look at the 1st and 3rd verse for context.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Oh that the "church leaders" would see the members of the Body of Christ in a different light.

Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

A true man of God commands respect and has influence, he does not insist opon it.

Men of God who lead are men who are full of the Holy Spirit, whether Apostles or elders or deacons. If one has a certain view on what it means to be "Full of the Holy Spirit," one may come to the conclusion that the vast numbers of men who currently hold those positions, do so illegitimatly. We owe allegiance to the Word of God, not the doctrines of men............brother Frank

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. (prov 11:14)

"A true man of God commands respect and has influence, he does not insist upon it."

"Men of God who lead are men who are full of the Holy Spirit, whether Apostles or elders or deacons. If one has a certain view on what it means to be "Full of the Holy Spirit," one may come to the conclusion that the vast numbers of men who currently hold those positions, do so illegitimately. We owe allegiance to the Word of God, not the doctrines of men....Appolus

Amen Frank...very good word.: Long ago, when men figured out that there was a lot of power, prestige and wealth to be gained by usurping God's place as rulers over His body...He confronted it. Where man rules, God doesn't, and it always brings death and destruction to God's people.

Jeremiah 5:30-31

30 “An appalling and horrible thing
Has happened in the land:
31 The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority; [ literally, on their own hands..[ Hebrew ]]
And My people love it so!
But what will you do at the end of it? "...[ if you receive it, it may kill you...]BT

This idea of lordship over God's heritage is controlling, and legalistic, and this Doctrine is designed to keep the head man, and his men, in power and influence...over the Lay. The deeds of this doctrine end up quenching out life. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY, or FREEDOM!"

The Lord confronts those who would establish themselves as kings, or lords over His....Revelation of John quoted below....

"Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

6. "Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans,[ lords over the lay...or kings over my people...] ..........which I also hate!"...Jesus

This idea is exactly that...Submit to me, and obey.
and.....

"But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

15 !!!!...."So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans."...[The illegitimate self-appointed heads, leaders, of God's heritage..]

16 "Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth."....Jesus wars against these men.BT

Yes, we need Godly and Holy men that will lay their lives down for the church as Shepherds. These men are unpaid, non-hirelings, that essentially do three things.

They feed God's people, with the Word of Life..

They Protect God's people from the wolf, and the lie, and usurpers who dominate.

They manifest the Lordship of Jesus, wherever they go in the body, and without, for the blessing of the church. They establish the church, that they would walk by faith under Jesus as Head and Lord..."The head of every man is Christ."

"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

4. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head."

This includes the hand of a controlling Pastor. Learn to walk with Jesus as your Lord, in the wonderful freedom of being loved by Him, and you will become a life-giver, as you grow up in Him.

Brothertom writes.......

"Where man rules, God doesn't, and it always brings death and destruction to God's people."

Amen brother. This particular teaching has been used to great effect down through the centuries. As a young Catholic boy, it was absolutely forbidden to ever question the priest. In the false prophet circles, they must never be questioned because you are not to " touch Gods anointed." People want to be ruled by a Pastor. They want him to do their thinking and studying for them. In my experience,Godly men encourage people to listen to God, to press into Him and see what He would say to them, hirelings want people to listen to them. Now, of course, there will be exceptions, as there always is, but in general, down through the centuries, this controlling issue, where men set up the teaching that they must never be questioned, has never been a Godly one. The question may be, do you want a Saul or do you want a David? .......brother Frank

Hi Paul, Zac writes.........

"Church matters include the conduct of the meetings of the church, the spiritual direction the church is going, the emphasis in the ministry of that church, the activities arranged by the church, etc., etc. In such matters, there must always be total submission to the directions given by the elders."

Zac says that in every single issue concerning church matters, total submission must be given at all times. Now brother, that is hardly a strawman. There is no Scriptures to support such a view. What we do have is hundreds and thousands of examples of this teaching, down through the centuries, causing untold harm and destruction to the the Body of believers. Many brave souls stood up against this teaching, and paid the ultimate price.......brother Frank

Brother Paul,

The issue is not about staying at a local church and sowing discord. We could discuss that but it would be a seperate issue. The issue is about " total submission,' in " matters of the church." That is either right or it is not. It is either Scriptural or it is not. If it is not Scriptural, then, it is a mans doctrine. My question to you brother Paul would be then, do you believe what the article taught " total submission in regard to church matters." If you agree, then we simply disagree. God bless you brother, I do not require that you agree with me :) ......brother Frank

Hi Christisking,

I appreciate that Scripture that you quoted. Consider what Matthew Henry says of this Scripture.........

2. Having thus told us the duty Christians owe to their deceased ministers, which principally consists in following their faith and not departing from it, the apostle tells us what is the duty that people owe to their living ministers (Heb_13:17) and the reasons of that duty: (1.) The duty - to obey them, and submit themselves to them. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission, that is here required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his word; and yet it is truly obedience and submission, and that not only to God, but to the authority of the ministerial office, which is of God as certainly, in all things belonging to that office, as the authority of parents or of civil magistrates in the things within their sphere.

You will note that that brother Henry says that it is not an " implicit obedience, or absolute sumbmission."

The reason this is important, and this is the point of my comments is that only tyrants and institutions of men would ever " require," absolute or total obedience, and no where does Scripture instruct anything of the sort. Brother Paul West's points are well taken, but that, I would argue, is another issue. This call for " total submission,' in regard to " church matters,' is akin to the claim of Catholic Popes of infallability in matters of " faith and morals." To question them on this issue is to be ex-communicated. Now, if the issue is a " church matter,' and one finds the leadership to be in error, I would reject the notion that one ex-communicate himself and move on down the road.

Also, in early church history, one could not " just move on down the road." There was not, when Scripture was written, a multitude of churches and denominations as we see today. There was one local church in each town or city with one set of elders. This compelled people to actually solve their problems as opposed to falling out over the color of the carpet and " moving on down the road," and forming a new church.

One last thing to consider. Follow the path of the pilgrim church from the first century for the next 1500 years. They consistantly rejected the authority of the " leaders,' and were accused of being troublemakers and much worse of course. Whether it was non-conformists or puritans or Lutherans or Moravians or ana-baptists on any other group one would care to mention, they would all be guilty of not submitting themselves totaly to the established leadership of their day in " matters of the church."

Perhaps I am straining out a gnat here, and forgive me if I am, but Godly leadership does not have to dictate to anyone that they must render " total obedience,' to them in " matters of the church.' I believe in Godly leadership, I believe in submission, I do not believe in " total or absolute obedience," to men. ....... brother Frank

Today, if you are in a house church, you can't just move on down the road. I suppose if you're not in one you can go to the church across the street or down the block but then you face a whole new set of extra biblical "rules" (in most cases) that you will have to "submit" to.

Since we keep speaking in vagueries, will someone please make a list of general items that they have experienced that "elders" want people to submit to them about?

Let me start with a few I have run into.

1. If you are a member of their church and "eat their food", you must tithe.

2. You must get involved in some ministry and abide by their rules for how the ministry is carried out.

3. You must support the Pastor's vision for this particular church.

4. If you have any personal giftings or ministry from the Lord, you must submit your ministry to them, meaning that you should not perform your ministry without it being sanctioned by them. It must become a ministry of so and so church and by submitting your ministry to them, you will then be directed by your church as to how you can carry out your ministry under their direction. (What happened to being led by the Holy Spirit?).

5.

6.

7.

8.

Can anyone add to this list? What have you been confronted with regarding submission or "total submission", because I am trying to understand in concrete ways how brothers want other brothers to submit to them?

And please, "laymen" and "clergy" are two words that should not be part of any Christian's vocabulary. We are all servants of the Most High God.

With respect,
Just-in

One thing that needs to be addressed in this discussion is the author's , [ Zac Poonen ] deeds, and de-facto doctrine about this issue. Zac Poonen is the head of his Christian organization, Church, and churches. All of the Pastors under this church, and group of churches, are directly under his rule. He owns and runs his ministry, and I would bet, upon his passing, it will be handed down to his son.

This is thus established downward, to be established within the upcoming leaders to do the same...Preach submission to the elders, who in turn press it upon the people...To keep the tithes and offerings rolling in, and the submitted elders functioning.

This in turn keeps the churches expanding, one must instill this doctrine of submission to the PASTOR. ; This all to keep the machine running smoothly. I see this as error...but not unusual, nor prohibiting the Lord to save, or act within these Churches, or organizations.

The one and only reference to a SINGULAR Pastor in the Bible is DIOTREPHES..who , according to John the Apostle...loved the Preeminence. He of course was soundly rebuked by the Apostle.

It is evident that even Paul the Apostle, the greatest of earthly shepherds, submitted to the very churches he founded. It is also evident that ALL churches had a body of Elders...equally submitted....and that those churches were independent, [ Not centrally ruled. ], Non-denominational..[ Not under a Name, which denotes a series of independent faith-statement-beliefs..]

This is standard fare in India, with multiple single leaders running many churches just like a large corporation...skimming resources for their agenda... [ I have met some, and it is ugly.] Which usually involves quite opulent lifestyles for themselves , and their lieutenants...[ IE: their Elders.] COMPARED to the INDIAN MASSES ...[ As in America, you think?]

This issue of "Reaping the benefits." as the heart-pride greed motivation] ...AS A LEADER...has been addressed by the Lord Jesus Himself, in his rebuke to the Pharisee Pastors of Judaism. It is exactly the same spirit that we face today. Read what he said to those who practiced these things...and loved the preeminence because of the BENEFITS...and in the end, it was the reason they murdered Him....because they despised getting exposed as to what they really were, and they knew, that if He kept it up, they would lose their place, and..POWER, PRIVILEDGE, & PRESTIGE.

Before the INCARNATION, He said; about leaders who love dominion;

“You who hate good and love evil,
Who tear off their skin from them
And their flesh from their bones,
3. Who eat the flesh of my people,

Strip off their skin from them,
Break their bones
And chop them up as for the pot
And as meat in a kettle.”

4 Then they will cry out to the LORD,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds. "..Micah 3.

In Revelation, Jesus also spoke, calling them Lords over my people...or NICOLAITAN..transliterated. He said that He hated their deeds. and teaching...which is directly about the singular Pastor who loves to benefit.

The Church is owned by Jesus. Without Godly, Holy, and Loving Pastors, Shepherds who love God and His more than themselves....The Church would perish...if it were possible.

"THE RULERS OF THE GENTILES ARE CALLED BENFACTORS!....BUT IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU!"...........Jesus to the apostles.

BrotherTom,

I had forgotten about the fact that NT Churches were independent and not controlled centrally by a "mother" church.

You can grow quite a kingdom when you are in charge of all elders in 50 or more churches. What would that do to a man, spiritually and psychologically to be the "head cheese" as it were over all elders in all churches? I can't even imagine. As you said, there is no precedence whatsoever in the NT.

Just-in

A lot of interesting replies and much to ponder, especially in the days in which we live. Many times the Lord has called me to places where I was not in thelogical agreement with the leaders. I attended a Southern Baptist church for over a year one time at the Lords leading, and as most would probably guess, I am not a Baptist :) I ended up best friends with the Pastor and we would have the longest lunches having some great discussions, definately iron sharpeing iron. And even although he knew I was " of the tongue speaking persuasion," he and I ministered together in old folks homes and so on. At the end of the year he said a remarkable thing, that I was the only one that he could have true fellowship with in the church and who wanted to speak about Jesus.

I attended a four point Calvinist Baptist seminary, and of course I am not a Calvinist nor a Baptist. One of the great times of my life and I learned so much about the Word of God in those times. The dean of the college would pass me and tell me " we are praying for you Frank,' with a smile, because he knew I was a " Pentecostal." At the end of my " premillenial dispensational," class of which I was of the total opposite view, the Prof thanked me for my participation and honesty in the class and I ended up with a 93:) Just last year I spent a year at IHOP, and quite a bit of it disturbed me, yet again, the Lord had led me there. I had no agenda at any of these places. I came in quietly and left quietly at what I believe to be the Lords leading in my life. Boy, that was quite a mouthful, but sometimes people make suppositions that are simply and totaly wrong. So, finaly to my point, and some may disagree but I would love to hear an opinion based on the actual point. Total surrender or absolute obedience to men is no-where taught in the New Testament. This is a narrow point, but its the only point I personally have been trying to make. Perhaps some opinions from Scripture on this narrow ( but broad implications) point? ........brother Frank

Appolus wrote:
Total surrender or absolute obedience to men is no-where taught in the New Testament.

Amen!

Many men behind pulpits have taken actual Courses on how to get their people onto buses - when the time comes - to be round up and taken to stadiums, etc - preaching Romans 13 on submission to Governments - but in these last days - we know where that will lead, as well as what you've mentioned of false doctrines and so forth.

The Spirit of Truth is our Guide, completely, and we'll stand before GOD accountable to how we've individually followed HIS Voice in the end and His only.

GOD Bless you!

Frank said: "I came in quietly and left quietly at what I believe to be the Lords leading in my life."

I didn't detect anything remotely like Prov 6 in Frank's words at all.

We also were taught, that if you don't agree with a Church, if GOD so leads, you speak to the Pastor first and the elders if possible and if no agreement can be reached, you quietly leave - doing no harm to any there - for GOD will hold that group of "leaders" responsible.

I think Frank's points were valid and not against Zac's, per say - but I also feel it's important to factor in "Total surrender or absolute obedience to men is no-where taught in the New Testament" because as a babe in Christ, this question often comes up and many have been snared in the past by shepherding movements and taken captive by false leaders by their twisting scriptures - ie. cults, Jim Jones, etc. etc. that will increase as the days go on, Jesus said.

Bless you Too Brother Oracio.

Speaking for myself - my experiences in Church and house church hopping, out of necessity only because I've had to move so much and followed many TV ministries and all since the mid 70's -- I do feel a word of caution is needed still, because many-many had to learn the very hard way, that a man can fall and take droves with them when they do.
They can and will fall morally and/or doctrinally.

Paul praised the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to be sure that what they were hearing was Biblical.

Many good points are coming out of this thread - and none should be disregarded but until The LORD comes - we don't know what men will fall in either area.

I cannot count how many ministries I've seen fall in 35 yrs and how it affected those who followed them.

We need to know His Word and as His Sheep, Know His Voice.

We need to be very sensitive to His Spirit and Word in order to know when to stay and when to move on.

The young in Christ, need to be protected and led to The Shepherd of The Sheep... nothing else is more important than this. To lead them to John 16:13,14 and John 10.

Many desire to be led solely by another human being - but we have to keep in mind that until Jesus Returns - these leaders remain "human beings" and the possibility of them to suddenly shift gears in doctrine or moral purity is an ever present threat - and one that for the less mature, can 'shipwreck' their faith - as we've seen through these through-out these last 2000 yrs.

Paul includes sound doctrine and moral purity in his description of the ministerial callings -

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

When any man in ministry falls - we need to be there to help those who have had their faith injured or led astray, by pointing them back to The Head of The Church and re-produce another bunch of Bereans.

His Shalom to all.

Brother Oracio writes.........

"brother Frank, with all due respect that is where it seems you missed the spirit of what brother Zac wrote. It is obvious from the article that he did not mean absolute surrender in all matters of faith, as you seem to think. In the opening paragraph and throughout the article, when he mentions church matters, he makes it clear that he means matters that are non-essential Christian doctrines or practices. And he stated clearly that in some matters you are free to do as you feel led to do.

Brother Zac writes.......

"Church matters include the conduct of the meetings of the church, the spiritual direction the church is going, the emphasis in the ministry of that church, the activities arranged by the church, etc., etc. In such matters, there must always be total submission to the directions given by the elders"

Brother Oracio, my point has nothing to do with brother Zac, and in this I think you misunderstand me. "Playing the ball and not the man," in this case the point is not about brother Zac or me or anyone in particular, my point is total surrender to men, in any sphere of life. If one is going to have a teaching as the one put forward, one must have solid Biblical authority in which to do so. I am saying that there is zero Scriptural authority for " total surrender," to men. The only man that I am totaly surrendered to is the man Christ Jesus, my Lord and my Saviour, and I could only wish that I was indeed " totaly surrendered" to Him, its my life's work. Key to me in all of this is the voice of God and Scripture. If, for instance, the Lord speaks to my heart and asks me to say something, then that is what I must do, despite the teachings and the doctrines of men. Let me give you an example. I was once given a word and the Lord asked me to give it to the elders of the church that I was attending ( nine years) It was one of the largest non-denominational churches in North America at the time. The word was simply this " You fear men rather than fearing God." I did that trembling. One of the elders/pastors jumped up out of his chair and was shouting " you cannot possibly know my/our hearts." It turns out the Pastor of that church was cheating, he ran of with the secratary and a large amount of money, and many of the elders had ignored warnings from others about this from others who knew what was going on. Yet, the general teaching was " you must not touch God's anointed." This had been so drummed into them, that they were afraid to confront the Pastor.

So, if your in a church and the Lord gives you a word, then you would be advised to act on that rather than respecting a man made doctrine. Would this be rare? Yes I believe that it would. Total surrender belongs to God and God alone and that indeed is Scriptural........brother Frank

I agree, Oracio.

In today's world, it is a good idea to use a different phrase than "total submission", which is not even in the Bible.

Also, it is obvious that many here know Zac Poonen but others do not, so those that know him, are willing to give him a pass because they have a relationship with him and and "know" what he is NOT saying. While others, who do not know him, just see his phrase of "total submission". I don't know him, but if I did, I might mention to him, brother to brother, that there may be better phrases to use, like the ones you mentioned.

Definitely not a good choice of words in a very public forum.

Just-in

Hi Sree,

We are not arguing, but rather striving for truth and clarity in this matter.

Usually, someone will allow you to speak into their life if you have relationship with them. I do not have any relationship with Zac and no one is trying to correct him. He put out a public message and we are only "publicly" commenting on it and how it may be interpreted by others. As you can see, it is interpreted different ways.

You make an interesting comment here:

We consider them as a part of our body only when we find a commitment in them.

I guess the keyword that you mention is "our body".

So, when a certain commitment that you are looking for is manifested, then you consider them a part of YOUR body as opposed to the Body of Christ.

Just curious, what does this commitment look like?

Also, you may mean this with all your heart, but we all make mistakes.

There is no way he will use an improper word in an article.

Thank you,
Just-in

Thank you for your answer, Sree.

We don't have any test for committment to US in our fellowship. Some people cannot come regularly and we are just happy to see them when they can come. Their giftings still work and are acknowledged as long as they are dwelling in peace with their brethren.

Just-in

Harold Camping comes to mind - for just one of thousands who claim to be "called to leadership". How about the 'prophets' of the NAR group? We could go on and on about who are the 'truly called' and what does that entail.
What are the signs that one is truly called to leadership of Any kind?
In these days of Television, radio, internet, mass-mailings, ANYONE can call themselves "called to lead".
It's a dangerous world out there and the call for caution is always Biblical.
Anybody under the sun can start a ministry in these days and demand obedience to themselves - but only The Spirit of GOD and His Word can discern 'who' called them. As human nature would have it - many desire leadership but few servanthood. Many 'covet' positions of controlling others - but GOD calls those who normally fight against any such calling, feeling unworthy to lead - whether they be a pastor, teacher, prophet or a 'leader' of any sort.

I was just reminded - What did Jesus mean here? ...

If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.

John 13:14-16

Found some good commentaries on this section in e-sword.

"Go and do likewise"

And so, the question remains, and to a great degree, remains unanswered by the replies so far, is " total submission,' to men a Scriptural truth? If it is Scriptural, should we not, in our replies, give the Scriptures and why we believe that it teaches " total submission." Lets take the men out of the replies, and how we know them and like them. I know and like many men with whom I totaly disagree with. I trust them as men and they have integrity, but what has that do do with the very narrow question of " total submission to men,' in whatever capacity it is, essential or non-essential. But I am sure that we all agree that teaching is based solely upon the Word of God and how that speaks to any issue, no matter who is teaching it.

In that vein, the Scripture that was quoted to me in an earlier post was Heb 13:17. I gave a quote by Matthew Henry who clearly stated that this Scripture in no way implied "total submission." Let me just give you an opinion from another.........

Ray C. Stedman wrote the following in his commentary on Hebrews:

Several things should be noted about Hebrews 13:17 and 1Thess 5:12. The word “obey” comes from the Greek peitho, “to persuade.” The present imperative middle form, used here, means “permit oneself to be persuaded,” “yield to persuasion.” It definitely does not mean to blindly follow orders. The phrase those who are over you in the Lord should simply be “your leaders in the Lord.” There is no thought of being “over” anyone, or others being “under” a leader. The authority of a Christian leader is not command authority but servant leadership. A servant has authority, as Jesus said he had, because he awakens by his loving service a desire to comply. Or he is persuasive because of his logic or knowledge."

When you consider the the measning of the word obey in the context of this Scripture, is it not a beautiful thing. To " permit oneself to be persuaded," or " yield to persausion." These are phrases of the Spirit, this comes under the shadow of " mutual submission." A man who is full of the Holy Spirit will always be open to being questioned and considering what one has to say. Consider Peter when he was confronted by Paul. Did he get upset and make accusations toward Paul? No, he called a council.And why did he call a council? Because.....
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. (prov 11:14)

This used to be known as a " teachable spirit.' If we have a man or a group of men who cannot, ever, be questioned or challenged and the only solution is to " move on down the road,' what does that say about a " teachable spirit.' If the leaders in a church do not have such a spirit, then how can we suppose that it is taught to others? To be open to persausion is a beautiful humble thing.

There are multiple occurances of the word " obey,' in the NT. The most common word, is " hupakouo," meaning to be subordinate, to conform to command and authority. Here is where you will find it..............

Mat 8:27 ...Winds and seas " obey,' Jesus
Mark 1:27... Unclean spirits " obey,' Jesus
Mark 4:41 winds and sea obey Jesus
Luke 8:25..Winds and sea obey Jesus
Luke 17:6.. a tree plucked up and tossed into the sea
Rom 6:12 ... Must not be under the command or authority of sin
Rom 6:16... Same as above
Eph 6:1.....Children must obey parents
Col 3:20...same as above
Col 3:22....servants must obey masters
2Thes 1:8...Must obey the Gospel
2Thes 3:14..The Word of God
Heb 5:9......God

Brothers and sisters, the same word could have been used by the Holy Spirit in Heb 13:17 but it was not.......brother Frank

"Brothertom said in "Owning the elder:The Pryamid effect":

"One thing that needs to be addressed in this discussion is the author's , [ Zac Poonen ] deeds, and de-facto doctrine about this issue. Zac Poonen is the head of his Christian organization, Church, and churches. All of the Pastors under this church, and group of churches, are directly under his rule. He owns and runs his ministry, and I would bet, upon his passing, it will be handed down to his son."

"This is thus established downward, to be established within the upcoming leaders to do the same...Preach submission to the elders, who in turn press it upon the people...To keep the tithes and offerings rolling in, and the submitted elders functioning.of our

This in turn keeps the churches expanding, one must instill this doctrine of submission to the PASTOR. ; This all to keep the machine running smoothly. I see this as error...but not unusual, nor prohibiting the Lord to save, or act within these Churches, or organizations.

The one and only reference to a SINGULAR Pastor in the Bible is DIOTREPHES..who , according to John the Apostle...loved the Preeminence. He of course was soundly rebuked by the Apostle."....Brothertom

Zac Poonen said;"Church matters include the conduct of the meetings of the church, the spiritual direction the church is going, the emphasis in the ministry of that church, the activities arranged by the church, etc., etc. In such matters, there must always be total submission to the directions given by the elders."..Zac Poonen

El Bethel said:" What if your presumption about the author Zac is wrong? Have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps your judgement about him could be wrong? If he is like one of those preachers who scream for money or longs for fame rather than the glory of God, you MAY BE justified in your saying. If it is not so, I really pity you.".. El Bethel

Evidently I am not wrong..except I do not know if his son will inherit the ministry..and to that I said "I bet". I am not judging the man, but the fruit of his deeds, and his words.I also noted that the Lord could save, or act in these situations...and He can.

Appolus said; quite eloquently; "Zac says that in every single issue concerning church matters, total submission must be given at all times. Now brother, that is hardly a strawman. There is no Scriptures to support such a view.

" What we do have is hundreds and thousands of examples of this teaching, down through the centuries, causing untold harm and destruction to the the Body of believers. Many brave souls stood up against this teaching, and paid the ultimate price."......brother Frank

In my opinion, this system is classic Nicolaitanism..where men become the rulers over God's heritage rather than God. Church matters are Faith matters, which is at the core of our being, as we are designed as the human.

Then, the meetings become all about the man, the teaching, the pews, and free body life vanishes. Of course, the blessing is touted among the community as to "our holy and right orthodoxy"...but in the end, as I have witnessed, the Holy part morphs into legalism, and more often than not, the One Man Show.

It is the trickle downward, and condemned by the lord. It brings division, and does much hurt, especially, as Frank bravely stated, to those who will not be in total submission to the elders. They usually are assassinated in character, or, as Frank said, martyred.

My, my, my, I did not think this thread was still going.

I thought Appolus' latest reply was very good. Ray Stedman is right. And even if I don't know greek, the Holy Spirit communicates to me that it is persuasion and not submission. The Bereans did not submit to Paul, otherwise they would not have questioned him. They respected him and searched the scriptures so they could be persuaded.

The Bereans received the Word with gladness and I am sure they "wanted" to be persuaded, since afterall, it was Paul the Apostle that was teaching them. Yes, they very much wanted to be persuaded, but first, they had to check the Lord's Word.

I also want to be persuaded by brethren in Christ and that is what this website is all about. Persuade me brethren!!

Regarding this subject, I am persuaded that we do not exercise lordship over each other. I am persuaded that we all are to be totally submitted to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am persuaded that we should all contend for the faith together. I am persuaded that we do not follow any man's vision or support any man's vision. I am persuaded that we follow and support the Lord's vision and He implants this in men's hearts. I am persuaded that if we were all to look to the Lord, we would recognize those that are mature and to be respected as the Bereans respected Paul, yet not so much that they gave him total submission. That was reserved for the Lord and the Bereans are a wonderful example that God placed in the Word for us. I am persuaded as we look to the Lord we will recognize the traditions and teachings of man that nullify the Word of God. And I am persuaded by much more, but this will do for now. I am persuaded that Godly, mature brothers can offer Godly, mature counsel. I have one Father and that is God, I call no man teacher or rabbi (pastor) according to the Lord's command. He was telling us to call no man by a religious title. I call no man by a religious title. I call my brothers by their name or by brother. That is what they are. They are my brothers. We are all brothers. The most mature brothers will only want to be called a brother.

A brother that thinks he has special status will want to be called something else than brother or than by his name.

The Lord is tired of the Nicolaitan spirit because it puts men between him and his children.

Men's kingdoms are all coming down to a crashing halt.

This should not be about Zac. Zac's article was only the grist for conversation about total submission, or any kind of submission to man. This conversation should not be about Zac.

Just-in

" This conversation should not be about Zac."

Praise the Lord, I have been saying that in almost all of my posts. Some people seem to want to make it about brother Zac, but to me that is simply a way of avoiding the question I continued to ask. Its a good question, its a very relevent question and I believe that its relevence will only increase as we move ever closer to the Lord returning. One of the moderators once said, and I liked it since I am a Scotsman who grew up on soccer, " play the ball and not the man," meaning, keep your eye on the ball, the question at hand and the relevence of it. .........brother Frank

It is an excellent question that we should not be afraid to confront.

It is only a fearful question to confront if you stand to lose something.

Hi Oracio,

Not sure who you are addressing, but as I am not a house-churcher I cannot speak for those brothers( although I was part of a house church for a year one time)

I for one do not like the 'them and us.' I consider God's church to be found across the spectrum. My opinion is that if one is full of the Holy Spirit, then it does not matter what kind of church government that you have. If Jesus has the pre-emminence, and the elders and deacons are full of the Holy Spirit, then there will be humility.

If I was the janitor at a church and the Lord gave me a corrective word for the pastor, then the pastor should have the humility to receive that word. Now of course he must test it and bring it before the Lord, but he must have the humility to listen to it. If there is a pride issue, you can rest assured the Lord will choose the vessel to deliver the message, and it wont be one of the recipient's choosing( I have been the recipient, I speak from experience:) If a church has a system in place that bars this kind of activity, it is simply asking for trouble. It may take years or decades to come, but come it surely will. In the example I gave in a previous post, that pastor had built up four local churches with over 8000 members, over 30 pastors and supported well over 50 missionary families.

The Word of God brings security to His children, all of His children. Fianlly brothers and sisters, what if you are a member or part of a church and the Lord gives you a word. Should you follow the Lord? Or, should you follow the advice of men? Its a rhetorical question, I know, but worth considering..........brother Frank

No pressure brother :) I love and appreciate you as a friend and brother in Christ, may the Lord pour out His love upon you and your family........brother Frank

Oracio writes.........

"Amen brothers, may the Lord lead us all by His mighty Spirit, whether in a "traditional" setting or a newer "house" setting or in a park, a prison, a cave or whatever. He is sovereign and will work mightily in the lives of His people when they seek Him with a whole heart."

Brothers, I see the gracious work of the Holy Spirit enacted in this thread. When all is done in love and truth then there is a beautiful unity.

" He is sovereign and will work mightily in the lives of His people when they seek Him with a whole heart."

Ah brothers, perhaps the key to the whole problem , " when we seek Him with our whole hearts." And so, with the high praises of God in our mouths, may this thread have done a good work. Those who love Truth, and who seek God with their whole hearts and who seek to raise Him up, and Him alone, find that they are in perfect unity, despite a myriad of backgrounds and traditions........brother Frank

Psa 133:1-3
(1) A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
(2) It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
(3) As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.