Divided

Has anyone watched the controversial new documentary/film "Divided"? If so, what are your thoughts?

http://dividedthemovie.com/

I have not seen the documentary but I did watch the trailer. I thought that the trailer made some pretty valid points about the youth ministries out there today. It reminded me of watching a Paul Washer video last year or the year before and he stated that the were worldly!!! He was the first one I heard come out and say that publically!

God bless,
Lisa

WAKE FOREST, NC, September 6, 2011 — On its rise to 100,000 online views, the film Divided, a documentary that raises probing questions about dangers associated with modern youth ministry, has been thrown out of a major conference and barred from advertising in major Christian publications. Divided has gone viral since being released as a free download at www.dividedthemovie.com, generating enormous response.

The film’s message — that churches should follow the Bible’s pattern of ministering to young people, not disregard it — has been deemed as too controversial by organizers of the D6 Conference, prompting them to disinvite the film’s co-producer — the National Center for Family Integrated Churches (NCFIC) — from attending its annual family ministry event to be held in Dallas, TX on September 21-23.
In response to this development, Scott Brown, the Director of the NCFIC, stated, “The decision of the D6 leadership to blacklist us from attending their event is remarkable. The stated purpose of the D6 conference is to explore biblical discipleship solutions that address the mass epidemic off today’s youth leaving the church and abandoning the faith. This is precisely what our film Divided does.
“We maintain that the tried and true patterns of Scripture regarding youth ministry are the answer to this dilemma,” explained Brown, “Yet for urging churches to set aside the world’s broken solution of family-fragmenting worship, discipleship and evangelism, in favor of the Scripture’s clear teaching on age-integrated ministry, we’ve been banned. It’s as if they’re saying, ‘God’s Word is not welcome as the final say on this issue.’”
Ron Hunter, executive director and CEO of Randall House, the sponsor of D6, overturned the NCFIC’s initial acceptance to the conference, stating that the presence of the NCFIC would “cause tension”. In an Aug. 29 letter, Hunter wrote: “The New DVD Divided does not fit the D6 Conference venue, created for sharing conversations about various biblical methods. Bringing together different biblical models requires grace and acceptance, as we share the path of generational discipleship.” Mr. Hunter also stated that the NCFIC is the first group D6 has ever disinvited, even as he admitted that he had not viewed the film before coming to his decision.
Significantly, nearly every organization represented at this conference excludes ideas it does not embrace, yet only the NCFIC was censored for affirming a specific standard. Peter Bradrick, the producer of Divided, pointed out this inconsistency, “Many of the exhibitors say they are advocating the truth. For some reason, only the NCFIC is not allowed to talk about their understanding of truth.”
In a similar move, Christianity Today has forbidden the NCFIC from advertising Divided on their web site. They turned away Divided’s advertising dollars based on the film’s subject matter, stating it was “unbalanced.” Later they ran a harsh movie review of the film on their web site and likened it to “an angry letter to the editor.” They called it “propaganda,” “categorically dangerous,” and “filled with scare tactics.”
Commenting on CT’s decision, NCFIC Director Scott Brown — a pastor who has also written the companion book, A Weed in The Church: How A Culture of Age Segregation is Harming the Younger Generation, Fragmenting the Family and Dividing the Church — observed: “We believe that the Scripture’s teachings are sufficient and timeless; that what Jesus modeled and the Bible outlines regarding youth ministry gives us a template for how Christianity today should be lived out. But the magazine that bears this name appears to have little patience for those who affirm the ‘old paths’, preferring modern trends instead.”
Yet another critic of Divided is popular, neo-reformed blogger Tim Challies. Challies recently dismissed the film in an unfavorable review, counseling his readers to stay away from it. “It’s a destructive message wrapped in a poorly-made documentary. The church would do well to ignore it,” Challies wrote. He lobbed several grenades against the documentary, saying it was “not at all fair,” builds a “case on a cliché,” and is “not only uncharitable but also utterly ridiculous . . . complete and utter nonsense.”
Scott Brown categorizes the criticisms in this way, “What is interesting is that the negative comments can be summed up by ‘you are ugly, your friends are ugly, and you are unbalanced,’ yet they never come in with biblical arguments for their position.”
Doug Phillips, founder of Vision Forum Ministries who briefly appears in Divided, commented on the backlash: “The film’s detractors have sent a clear message to the Church: they will accept virtually anything from evangelicalism, except the position that says that the discipleship of youth should be directed in a family-integrated context, and that the youth-driven “Youth Ministry” is toxic; this position will not be tolerated,” Phillips said.
Brown offered this: “While Divided has been well-received by thousands, the opposition it has garnered illustrates one of the film’s core messages: that the church today has drifted away from Scripture and toward modern culture for her answers.
“The resistance is also understandable when you consider how much money is involved in youth ministry and the whole age-segregated superstructure that undergirds modern church,” remarked Brown, “All you have to do is follow the money. It affects the whole staff configuration, church vision, deployment of church workers, the facilities — nearly everything.”
Scott Brown likened opposition to his organization and scorn toward Divided’s perspective on youth ministry to the conflicts during the Protestant Reformation as the church was embracing “sola scriptura.” “Our message is simple: Trust God’s Word alone; it is sufficient. Sadly, this view is looked on with great suspicion today. Things have gotten pretty bad when a leading Christian magazine and a leading Christian conference simultaneously reject even a discussion of what the Bible clearly teaches!”
The National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NCFIC) is a 501 (c) (3) non-profit organization dedicated to correctly understanding God’s unified vision for church and family, rightly diagnosing the problems that impede this vision, and effectively communicating biblical solutions that rebuild family-affirming churches. For information about the NCFIC and the film Divided: Is Age-Segregated Ministry Multiplying or Dividing the Church, visit online at http://www.ncfic.org/

It's free to watch on their website.

http://dividedthemovie.com/

Watched the movie.
All i can say is, 'Wow!'
It certainly brought to the fore some of my concerns about children's ministry as a whole.
I've often wondered about children being shuttled off to their own 'service'...
I plan to watch the movie again....hopefully with my DH.

It's certainly worth watching.

I just started watching it and suddenly noticed (9 min).... Ken Ham! I am reminded of waltern (yes, I'm looking at you waltern!) and the horrible thread topic (old earth/young earth) this caused. Nonetheless, I will finish the movie.

God bless,
Lisa

I watched the entire documentary online when it was first released. There is little in the video you can argue with. Most of it is simply the reporting of what is happening. I wholeheartedly agree and am thankful we are part of a church that does not have a youth group. There are many adults in our church, and I will admit there is one adult who reports a positive experience with youth groups, but all of the others agree it dragged them down. We have many people who report their first beer, their first marijuana, their first sexual encounter, their reason for leaving home, their first R-rated movie, their first rock concert, etc. as part of their youth group! Talk about having the exact opposite effect of what they claim to be about. You know, it doesn't really matter how many verses you memorize in youth group or how great the youth pastor is or how much more you learn about the Bible and make "godly" friends if you lose your virginity or start smoking dope or get sucked into running with non-Christians (or running with "Christians" who spend their time doing non-Christian things). Please don't have a tradition-based or memory-based knee-jerk reaction to this post until you think about it or do some further reading into what is really happening. I am thankful that many youth pastors, even before this video came out, saw the error of youth activities and got out. Another great speaker on this topic is Voddie Baucham.

Tradition is often the iron fist of the church that ignorantly replaces the nail pierced hand. Once it takes root it is most difficult to rid. So many have cried tears for a lost generation, yet have no answer for its demise. God will always desire obedience over sacrifice, for the first is what makes the fruit of the second good.

There are many who were silenced in the past and still today, who have opposed the concept of age segregation in the church. They spoke the same concerns of Thomas Burns and prophesied the abdication of the Fathers and Mothers natural God designed and ordained responsibilities of teaching the fullness of God to their very own.

It is a wonderful and graceful work of the Spirit to wake men from the apnea of tradition and convict them that the good they seek to do is according to their own flesh and not what God desires.

Thanks for the link and may much good come from it.

I watched this months ago after being sent the link by a friend of mine. I was actually the one who shared with them about NCFIC who created the video. She asked me what I thought of it. I took a long time thinking about this movie. I read many, many comments on this movie. I must admit that I have not fully explored and studied this topic in Scripture but I FIRMLY agree that the parents should be the primary source of discipleship for the children and that families should not be segregated the way that it is commonly in most churches. I really embrace the primary message of this movie and NCFIC. I am struggling with the way the movie was made. I would stand behind Divided for the support of family integration but it was pretty evident that the movie also used some weak examples as noted my many commenters. By weak examples, I mean, on one side they interview young kids who were immature and/or very carnal and contrasted their comments with very mature and learned pastors/teachers/authors. It opens up arguments from those who oppose Divided's message [which is good]. They could argue that this makes for a 'straw man'fallacy. I think it would have been wiser to avoid those comparisons. I think that can be perceived as an insult to ones intellect because of the obvious weakness in that comparison. The other thing that I am still thinking about is the thought that everyone who uses the 'youth group' & 'sunday school' or 'children's church' model is out of God's will. The fact that we homeschool our six children and have recently decided to started worshipping and having 'church' at home instead of going to 'church' should say a lot about where we stand but I don't know what to say about those who follow the 'segregated' model. First, I can positively say that many if not most do so with a genuine and pure motive. And few are doing so without trying to turn to 'worldy' methods. My wife came back to God in a youth meeting. I came from Times Square Church where there was a strong being preached but they still have youth groups etc. I experienced God moving in those circles. I could not say that God hasn't blessed those efforts but I remember Denny Duron saying "instead of asking God to bless what we are doing, we need to do what God has blessed". Same type of issue I am faced with when being asked of my thought of the 'traditional/organized church' vs 'home churches'. I have many issues with the 'traditional' church model but I need to be careful of my criticisms about it. There are things we can draw out from Scripture and we can arrive at our interpretations which are not always conclusive. And those conclusions can differ even between two people whose heart are genuinely sincere and with right motives.

When I first saw the movie, I was tempted to send it out to many who practice 'segregation'. I was so moved by it but decided to meditate for some time and listen to others arguments and definitely pray about this for more revelation and a right heart.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Ricky

I appreciate what y'all are saying. There are probably many of us who have dealt with this subject only to find our concerns ignored or fallen upon deaf ears. I was teaching the high schoolers Sunday morning before my conversion. Even before being converted I knew something was not right about this system. If parents abandon their role as their children's teachers, are they not disobeying Gods directives to them as parents? At the time I was not worrying about the kids being taught because they got that at Sunday school and service. Or did they? God did not call parents to teach their children 2 to 3 times a week but rather every opportunity that could present itself and every opportunity that could be advantaged. How was a part time teacher (putting it lightly) going to teach through a child's life if he only worked with the child an hour or two a week? As well he did that in groups and not one on one, so where is the intimacy that is to be found in that? Why not just teach our own children instead of trading off? We have allowed a system that would see every parent teaching everybody else's children but their own. That is if they were all teachers. That is not the likely scenario. What happens is the parent relinquishes his role to a part timer who has absurd limitations. It's not God's design!

When I was saved my concern about this system went from concern to conviction. I felt it a sin to be party to the disobedience this produced. I took it to the Elders but we live in an age where tradition is not so much acknowledged as a problem amongst Protestants. While Catholicism remains the easy target and gross offender, we can easily point the finger, but we have made a grave mistake to think that we are not greatly influenced by the traditions of men as well. By not considering ourselves susceptible and not examining ourselves before the Lord, we have fallen easily into those works that are not led by the Spirit. With the greatest of intentions they are nonetheless born in self effort. They become man's traditions and given a little time to affirm their place in the church, they might as well be made of titanium because they are here to stay and they do not bend. It is amazing how many times people would talk about how so many youth are walking away from the church and not even consider looking in their own backyard for the cause.

Ricky, I agree they used easy targets for extreme examples to drive a point home but this is as much a danger for the level headed conservative straight laced youth as it is for the worldly one. The argument regardless of the exampled youth used is whether God will be taken for His word over mans cleaver device. As was brought out in the film, there is no support in scripture for the model of providing youth a teacher when children and youth have capable parent(s) as their caretaker(s). People will even grasp for the shortest of straws over seeing this tradition corrected.

Bless you for where God has brought you with your family and what He has in store for you in the future.

God be with your efforts thingsabove.

Having grown up never attending youth groups, and having the excellent example and instruction of a dad who loves the Lord with all his heart soul mind and strength, and his wife as Christ loves the church, and who loves and instructed me and my 5 brothers and sisters as scriptures commands, I definitely do not believe that youth groups are a healthy component of the North American church. In fact I believe that it is detrimental. That said, I would not fully recommend the film because I believe that there is a deeper problem that the video unconsciously propounds instead of addressing. My Dad states it more eloquently than I, so I will share what he said about it.

While there are definitely problems with the way the whole situation is presented, it points out the real need of fathers to disciple their children. This is good.
However,I would argue that their analysis is selective and short sighted.
Age segregation per se is not the root of all evil. If you integrate the children into adult worship and encourage fathers to disciple their children, yet the "adult worship" is not biblically based and the father's are not themselves disciples you've accomplished nothing for Christ and his kingdom.
I'd recommend it, but I fear that all that will result will be the raising of the "Away with age integration" banner. Hopefully some fathers will get a wake up call.
A doctor must deal with the complications and effects of cancer but if he doesn't identify the root cause and take immediate radical action all of his efforts to control the effects will be in vain. The cancer in the evangelical church is worldly men. i.e Men who lack holiness, consecration, and simple yet unwavering trust in God's word. "Be on guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be men of courage. Be strong. Do everything in love (1 Co 16:13)
Godly men produce godly offspring, period. Pr 14:26, Pr 20:7, Ps 112.

Lastly, it's interesting that the command in 1 Co 16:13 to "be men of courage" ανδριζεσθε verb - present middle or passive deponent imperative - second person
andrizomai an-drid'-zom-ahee: to act manly -- quit like men. Is translated in the new NIV "be courageous"
This is appalling and straight from the pit! In an effort to be gender inclusive, friendly etc. they've undercut the jolt that the men need.

I enjoyed this documentary very much, coming from that kind of culture and then coming out of that culture it really makes me see. About a year ago the Lord was opening my heart up to scripture and what it is to be the church and I found the exact same thing as this documentary. As a former youth pastor I found the philosophy of the church was a tug of war on two generations. One side thought well if we got the youth in the church we would get their parents to come along eventually and if we got the parents to come along we would get the youth. This is so wrong because of my 15 member youth group not a single parent went to the church and of the 15 members of the youth group only 1 set of parents actually came to me to meet me so they knew who was teaching their kid.

We really have dropped the ball eh? I do like the conclusion of it though and the thought of youth pastor not being out of jobs but their focus of ministry changed to training and equiping parents. What I really felt I failed at as a youth pastor is at being a bridge between the youth and their parents but this documentary shows me that I was never to be a bridge for the two but Christ was to be the bridge.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, y'all!

Hey guys,

So I have watched the documentary since stumbling upon on this forum.

I just want to ask, was there anything unbiblical in this documentary? I have been sharing this with many of my friends over facebook and have been met with serious accusations that this is heretical.

I myself thought the core of the message was true and needed however maybe there were some parts that were unneeded or could be shortened and other parts that could be expanded on more.

In Christ
Evangel

I...have been met with serious accusations that this is heretical.

It's hard telling what they're referring to. It's very easy to write off something that contradicts your beliefs as "heretical", without really proving it (some people like the shock factor, if ya know what I mean. HERESY!! [Gasp!]). Heresy is a term that I think is really over-used sometimes.

I would encourage you to ask them, what (specifically) is heretical in it?

Youth ministry within a local church, if properly handled, can help a lot kids especially in school or campus ministries where youths are living away from their parents_
or to the new converts whose parents are unbelievers.

There are also christian parents that are struggling or weak in their faith and may have difficulty in guiding their children even to the rudiments of christian doctrines and practices.

I do not think that we should totally ban youth ministries just because of the cases where it has been abused and desecrated.

I think the baby and the bath water should be thrown out!

I had to pull my teens out of several youth groups.

I will never put them back in!

There is no excuse for this behavior... none!

And yes I did try to step in and help but was met with arrogance and pride by all the staff.

We will stand before GOD someday and answer for what we have done in His name.

Let us not throw our kids to these progams to lose there souls.

Quote:

passerby... have you watched the documentary? That was all addressed in it.

Are you satisfied on the way they addressed it. Personally, there are lot of statements made that I am having serious reservation. I am still trying to access additional info at
NCFI.

So in response to Creation here are the accusations that I received:

"If I have not already made it clear enough the danger of spreading this video, I am going to do it one more time:

(1) the most important thing to keep in mind is if something only contain partial truth, it is still a lie. In the story of the Fall, everything the serpent said has truth in it, but when he twisted the truth to his liking, the result is terminal. So, while this video use Scriptures, and has this deep desire to base church's ministry in God, because it twisted the Scriptures to say what they want to say, it defines itself as heresy. It is the same thing the Pharisees did. They took God's Laws, take it apart, and turn them into something they can "easily do" and imprison the Jews and turn their desire for God in vain.

(2) it took a passage from Ephesian and use it as "evidence" that God's desire is not to have Youth-based Ministry but Family-based Ministry. Whoever said that is OBVIOUSLY without proper theological and Biblical training. They are treating the Epistles into books like the Deuteronomy. These LETTERS are, by no mean, law to live by, but they are PERSONAL letters to a Church or a group of Churches addresses issue(s) they are facing. For them to cipher a "rule" such as the one they suggested is a tell-tale sign of them being heretic.

(3) These new Christians (if they convert) are almost guaranteed to be from atheistic/agnostic/buddhist/etc families. If you continue to push this an agree with you, WHO are going to make sure these kids be brought up right? Their parents? Why would they want to bring their kids up in OUR faith? Notice the BIGGEST flaw of these tunnel visioned people, yet?

(4) they keep talking about not seeing ANY evidence that the early Church ever had a specific ministry like youth ministry. As I said before, that is so far fetch and self-righteous talk. First of all, the environment and culture are different. We won't die if we tell people we are Christians, and the world at that time operates as a unit following the decision of the head of an household. That is, if the father of the house believe, the whole house believe, no "if" or "but". We can't just say, let's do what the early church does and we will be more with God rather than men. Excuse my language, but that is just crap. NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY HOW THE EARLY CHURCH WAS! Even the best historian can only guess. The early church was struggling due to persecutions, and still finding their way around being a "Church", so how in the world can ANYONE say whatever the early church did is of God, and everything after are of men? Have you and they forgotten why were the first deacons chosen? Have you and they forgotten the BIG fight between the APOSTLE Paul and APOSTLE Peter over the "simple" issue of circumcision? If this is not enough evidence "Divided" is heresy and intend to DIVIDE the Church, I don't know what is."

I watched this movie and have fairly serious reservations about it myself. The scriptural backing is both vague and incredibly tenuous.

It goes without saying that fathers need to be the spiritual guidance of their children. The non-sequitur's abound from beginning to end in this film. I have never once in my life heard a man say that he relies on youth groups to raise his children instead of himself. That may be a partial truth, but men don't raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord for far deeper reasons. The likes of which, youth groups, or the lack there-of will never do anything to fix. It is not my habit to post on threads like this, but frankly, I just felt the movie missed the point. Just another attempt to gussy up a corrupt tree by trimming the leaves...

"A man was famous according as he had lifted up axes upon the thick trees." -Psalm 74:5

That being said, the presentation was excellent, in terms of editing, and in terms of decency, the case was made well, but I am afraid this will just be another band-wagon people will jump on thinking that they have finally found the holy grail of ministerical methodology. It will also give more people reason to grumble, complain, and cause further division. I wonder how many fathers would just watch it, and take the point home about being fathers regardless of what the "method" of their church is. Or are they going to sit around until their church decides to sanction fatherhood?

Thanks for posting this person's objections, EvangelTam!

(1) the most important thing to keep in mind is if something only contain partial truth, it is still a lie. In the story of the Fall, everything the serpent said has truth in it, but when he twisted the truth to his liking, the result is terminal.

All true so far, to the extent that if something is partial truth, the part that is a lie is a lie-- but the part that is the truth, is still the truth.

So, while this video use Scriptures, and has this deep desire to base church's ministry in God, because it twisted the Scriptures to say what they want to say, it defines itself as heresy. It is the same thing the Pharisees did. They took God's Laws, take it apart, and turn them into something they can "easily do" and imprison the Jews and turn their desire for God in vain.

Merely stating this does not make it a true statement.

(2) it took a passage from Ephesian and use it as "evidence" that God's desire is not to have Youth-based Ministry but Family-based Ministry. Whoever said that is OBVIOUSLY without proper theological and Biblical training.

They are treating the Epistles into books like the Deuteronomy. These LETTERS are, by no mean, law to live by, but they are PERSONAL letters to a Church or a group of Churches addresses issue(s) they are facing.

YOU are showing lack of proper theological and Biblical training. "Knowing this FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20) You are violating this principal. Paul also said in one of his Epistles that a man should not have his mother to wife; that it was an abomination. You said, "These LETTERS are, by no mean, law to live by". That doesn't stand here, obviously.

For them to cipher a "rule" such as the one they suggested is a tell-tale sign of them being heretic.

(3) These new Christians (if they convert) are almost guaranteed to be from atheistic/agnostic/buddhist/etc families. If you continue to push this an agree with you, WHO are going to make sure these kids be brought up right? Their parents? Why would they want to bring their kids up in OUR faith? Notice the BIGGEST flaw of these tunnel visioned people, yet?

As Krispy said, that was already addressed in the film. Has this objector even watched it?

(4) they keep talking about not seeing ANY evidence that the early Church ever had a specific ministry like youth ministry. As I said before, that is so far fetch and self-righteous talk.

Proof?

First of all, the environment and culture are different.

God's Word transcends ALL cultures. (2 Peter 1:20)

We won't die if we tell people we are Christians, and the world at that time operates as a unit following the decision of the head of an household. That is, if the father of the house believe, the whole house believe, no "if" or "but".

This is truly ludicrous. As if the wife and children's hearts back then were programmed to believe the Gospel simply because the father believed it. Nonsense!

We can't just say, let's do what the early church does and we will be more with God rather than men. Excuse my language, but that is just crap. NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY HOW THE EARLY CHURCH WAS! Even the best historian can only guess.

Er,er,er! Wrong! :) The best historians are not just guessing. We have a ton (not literally) of their writings. Have you done any study on Church history? Btw, this is not just about the early church. As was shown in the film (which I doubt this person watched), The whole Sunday school/youth group idea was started by Robert Raikes in the 1700's, long after the "early church". So even long after the time most historians agree was the early church age, the church was not doing this.

The early church was struggling due to persecutions, and still finding their way around being a "Church", so how in the world can ANYONE say whatever the early church did is of God,

They were being persecuted because they were "living Godly in Christ Jesus", therefore, they were obviously doing something of God. And btw, nobody says "whatever" the early church did is of God; that's what you said.

and everything after are of men?

You're creating a straw-man. Nobody said that but you.

Have you and they forgotten why were the first deacons chosen?

They were chosen to remedy the problem that the Grecian widows were "neglected in the daily ministration." (Acts 6:1) No mention of a youth group! Have you forgotten?

Have you and they forgotten the BIG fight between the APOSTLE Paul and APOSTLE Peter over the "simple" issue of circumcision?

What does this have to do with a youth group? Let's stick to relevant subject matter.

If this is not enough evidence "Divided" is heresy and intend to DIVIDE the Church, I don't know what is."

I'm sorry, this is not evidence for your case. Sadly, it is someone rejecting Biblical teaching.

Hi Krispy,
God forbid I make another rule.

I am just saying that the youth programs teach our kids that they need something different than Christ.

They think they need a youth program.

If there was a "group" of people that need Christ more than others it would be teens!

Christ is not a game, a party, a joke, a
stepping stone for some man to rachet up his career.

My kids and yours are just to precious to take a chance with them in these programs I believe.

Christ is true reality not youth programs.

Can a youth program help a kid ? Yes, just like a dead stick can hold up a living tree, but let us teach the tree to stand up in Christ and throw the dead sticks away.

Hey all,

Just to clearify what I posted were *NOT my views on Divided.
If you read my previous post you will see that I was posting *ANOTHER person's justification of why he believes the movie is heretical.

I wanted the opinion of other brothers and sisters on this subject as I want to be able to speak in truth in love to this person who hold the views posted previously.

I would like to thank you all esp Creation7 for taking your time to respond, it is very much appreciated!

In Christ
Evangel

Don't worry, Evangel, I knew they weren't your objections. :)