The Beauty of EXTERNAL righteousness

Makrothumia, you write..........

"Can we show men our internal righteousness without works? I think not; rather, we must show the world our faith by our deeds."

I am unclear as to who you are addressing. Who here has said that one can have internal righteousness without it being reflected in our walk? As far as I can see, it is agreed upon by all that ones inner walk will relfect in their outer walk, whether righteousness to the glory of God before men, or religious which will lead to a lack of love. For I am sure that you will agree that men can have the appearence of righteousness on the outside, but one can never imitate the supernatural love of God? ........brother Frank

quote:

"The religious man can reproduce many things in this world for a time but he cannot reproduce genuine love. He can seem to many to be upstanding, as were the Pharisees, yet God has considered the inside of the cup. This outward appearance is everything to the religious man because ultimatley he is a fearer of man, not God. He fears what others think, its what motivates him in all that he does. He is an actor and one full of guile, yet, God has considered the inside of the cup because he looks upon the heart."

"Can we show men our internal righteousness without works? I think not; rather, we must show the world our faith by our deeds."

Amen brother Alan. Also one cannot seperate outward righteous behaviour from inward righteous attitudes. For instance one cannot flee from evil in His heart. There is times he needs to flee or run and not be in a certain situation. To just say holiness and righteousness is in "being nice" is a grave error. Love by definition is sacrifice and being poured out for another and suffering the loss of all things.

To me there are 2 errors which the western church is prone to. 1 to consider all standards in Christianity as legalism and not to teach any specifics in regards to holiness and living of for the Lord Jesus. 2 to be holy in outward things yet lack true saving faith, love and the meekness of Jesus Christ thus being relgious and hard towards others.

The scriptures "do" teach outward righteousness that exhibits itself through good deeds and areas of sanctification in the believer. Again if the Lord Jesus Christ is the one we have surrendered all to then why are you still holding onto a few areas of your life where you demand you have control over because it would be legalism (supposedly) to give that area over the Lord's control.

May God lead us into His fulness, His love and meekness and to sacrifice our "everything" to Him for His purposes.

One of the major problems in North America socially is "INDEPENDENCE" or rather spiritually speaking "INTER-DEPENDENCE" thus we differ then 95% of our brothers and sisters across the world in the west for we feel we have the right to things that they don't. We have the right not to allow the Scriptures to touch areas of our lives that will make it uncomfortable for us in society. We want to fit in, we want the approval and success of society and Jesus Christ also.

Lord have mercy on me first on all these areas and the rest of the body of Christ.

Thank you brother Alan for your boldness to speak out on part of what is needed to be said amongst all the churches of God.

What I find troubling about external righteousness is there are those according to 2 Tim.3 who have e a form of godliness but deny its power. Does the external righteousness or deeds or godliness stem from a heart that has been changed through faith in Jesus Christ.

In 1 Cor.1:30 the verse tells us that because of him we are in Christ Jesus. He is the wisdom from God that becomes our righteousness, holiness, and redemption

In John 15 in the vine and the branches the life of Jesus produces the fruit. That is the fruit of the Spirit of Gal.5. The key is focussing. on and abiding in Jesus. The more we fill our minds with him and his word the more those deeds will flow out our lives for him.

Blaine

My Scottish brother writes...........

"You are either going to trust in your performance, through obedience to the Law and the traditions of man, which is the power of sin (Legalism) do it in your own strengh, or you are going to trust Jesus and the obedience of faith, which results in righteousness.
Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin"

Amen to that brother. There is nothing more blinding that legalism.Those caught up in it lose their ability to see Jesus because self stands in the way and that self is the old man no matter how it is dressed up.Its quicksand to the spirit. One caught up in this can only be delivered by God, for only He can cause the blind to see........ brother Frank

Did not Jesus say in John 15 that apart from me you can do nothing? I remember hearing a speaker say that all too often we get so focussed on the fruit we lose close proximity to Jesus.

Blaine

Makrothumia writes....

"Yes, it is very possible to only "APPEAR" righteous outwrdly and be full of corruption inwardly. However it is EVEN MORE TRUE that it is impossible to be righteous internally and fail to produce the external evidence of good fruit. Only good fruit is evidence of thorough repentance."

I think right here is where we are talking past each other.Perhaps we may even agree. This is not a discussion about cheap grace, at least as far as I am concerned meaning, people professing to be in Christ but living any old way they please, this is a discussion about Phariseeism. Now, Pharisees lived exemplary lives. This discussion started, at least for me, because of a shlew of articles speaking about hating money and how if someone had a certain amount ( no one ever really determined the standard) then they cannot be a witness for Christ. And again, another article which claimed one must be totaly obedient, absolute obedience, to leadership. And then finaly the head covering post which led to assertions that people like Corrie Ten Boom may not even have been saved because she did not wear a head covering. This is the blindness and the madness of legalism.

Take for instance the thread that was just locked. How many jumped all over Steve Jobs because he had a lot of money? The question was " where is his money going to get him now?" and it was not said with any kind of love. Brother Compton had to rightfully rebuke those and point out the fact that most people who talk a lot about money tend to have the problem themselves. There was no love in that thread, only judgement. I am so glad that it was locked.

And so, two sets of people, each living exemplary lives. Each having the the so called beauty of external righteousness. Rememeber the ten virgins. They were all virgins, they all had lamps, and when it was neccecary to trim them, half of them had no oil. Wheat and tares. Most of us in the mid-west know that a tare resembles a wheat, its hard to tell them apart, until near the time of harvest. So this discussion is not about one group of lawless people living any old way they please and another living exemplary lives( that would be too simple and apparent), it is taken for granted, or it should be, that anyone in Christ would be living an exemplary life ( with moments of defeat where the Lord gracefully and mercifully restores)

To me, this discusssion is about how holiness is pursued. And as simply as I know how, I say with all simplicity, holiness is pursued by pursuing Jesus. Now what does that mean? It means pressing in ever closer to Him. It means encountering Him in the Word and in the Spirit. Those who do this will begin to live exemplary lives as they are sanctified. The process and circumstances which bring this about are different for all of us, but the Lord knows. Let me finish with an example of my own pharisee heart shortly after I was converted.

My father came to know Jesus at the age of 49. He had been a violent alcohlic for over three decades. Had been locked up in mental hospitals. Was a plumber in the shipyards where only the " strong,' survived. There was no more worldly and sinful man than my father. He hated the fact that my mother had come to Christ and he fought it violently. From the day that he got saved, he never drank again, he is 71. He and my mother re-took their marriage vows and he was baptized, a huge thing for an ex-Catholic. I met Jesus two years later.

A couple of years after that I was considering my dads walk and I found him wanting. He was not spiritual enough, as far as I was concerned. I had totaly judged him in my heart as unworthy of the name of Jesus. Suddenly as I was praying the Lord spoke to my heart through the Holy Spirit. I saw a base line in my mind. It stared at minus 20 and ran through to 10. The Holy Spirit said to me " Jesus is 10. Pure evil is minus 20. When your dad came to me he was a minus 4 and he is now a 3. He has moved seven steps closer to me in his walk. You were a minus one and now your a 5. You have moved six steps closer to me. Although you appear to others to be more spiritual than your father, I look at the inward man. I know where a man has come from and I know where I am taking him, he is my servant."

A Pharisee will crush Gods people by their own standards, standards that the Lord knows that they do not live up to themselves because He knows the heart. That is the danger of judging a brother according to your particular standard. Whether its the amount of money you consider to be too much, or whether you consider a woman wearing pants and lipstick does not come up to your standard, whatever it is, it all becomes repugnant. There is a simple beauty about those who know who they are, where they come from and where they are going. Those who have Christ at the center of their hearts, who pursue Him in Word and Spirit, who encounter Him, no well who they are and why they stand. They walk with a greatful, thankful heart, a heart that burns with love. A heart that mourns the death of anyone unsaved, rich or poor. True humility, true meekness, true love comes in the power of the Holy Spirit to a servant that is broken before the throne. Those who would stand up and say that they are glad that they are not like those other people, go down the hill unjustified..........brother Frank

Makrothumia, you wrote..........

"I do not disagree about the problem of Phariseeism, it is simply not the topic on my heart. You are the one who has steered the topic in this direction."

Brother, I wrote a piece on the dangers of a focus on the externals, the outward appearance, and you replied, I am assuming, with this piece. The converstaion was well under way. Now, the reason I wrote that piece, was in reply to the headcovering thread.

You write.........

"The eyes of men must see the external evidence of our internal life if our "daily life is to win their respect." A wife's inner meekness and tranqulity must be observable by impirical evidence to win a husband without a word. You may focus upon the internal and I will focus upon the external."

The problem is brother, they are one and the same thing, they are not seperate issues. The internal issue is the whole, and it manifests itself outwardly. There can be no counterfieting this, there is no danger on focusing on the inner man, because, if our hearts are right, if we are walking in the Spirit, if we are moving in the holiness of God because we encounter Him and are changed in His presence, then it automaticly shows itself on the outside with love and mercy and forgiveness. The man who encounters God and His holiness loves more, he forgives more, he moves in mercy, he devours the Word of God. There is no danger in pursuing God with all of your heart, in fact it is what we must do and when we do then the externals are taking care of, they naturally flow from the inside out.

Now, can the same be said about externals? Can a headcovering possibly show that a pesron is holy? If a woman wears pants or lipstick, can we assume that she is not holy? If a person believes that how they dress can make them holy is there not great danger in that? Jesus has written the law on our hearts, it flows from there out. All efforts to approach God by externals will fail. In the end it probably comes down to our definiton of Holiness and righteousness. I am sure that we agree that if a man or woman is genuinly saved, they are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb. Is there a missing element to that equation, is it that plus something else? Therefore, if one is already truly justified in the eyes of God, what we are talking about here is sanctification.

And so brother, all of these questions were raised because of a series of articles stating that if a man had a certain amount of money, then he could not be used of God. If a man was not in total obedience to his leadership, then he could not be used of God. If a woman did not cover her head, then she was, to quote one of the posters, guilty of unfaithfulness, equating it to that of a woman who cheated on her husband. Or, it was even suggested that because Corrie Ten Boom did not wear a head covering, then we do not really know if she is in heaven. Do you not see any dangers here?

Using the externals of pants and lipstick and a certain amount of money to judge the motives and the hearts of people. This, I would suggest, is the very danger of focussing on the externals. I pray that the people who take these postions may be young and simply passing through Romans 7. I believe that Romans 7 is a neccecary journey for all Christians, for they must discover that we can do nothing in and of ourselves because of our flesh, we will surely cry out " Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death." Praise the Lord we know who, Jesus and Him alone. Its not by might nor by power, but only through the Spirit of God can anything be achieved, a complete surrender and brokeness before the throne of God. And then, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk in the Spirit and not according to the flesh that has just been described in Romans 7. On this I am sure we will agree...........brother Frank

Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!

Now, can the same be said about externals? Can a headcovering possibly show that a pesron is holy? If a woman wears pants or lipstick, can we assume that she is not holy? If a person believes that how they dress can make them holy is there not great danger in that? Jesus has written the law on our hearts, it flows from there out. All efforts to approach God by externals will fail. In the end it probably comes down to our definiton of Holiness and righteousness. I am sure that we agree that if a man or woman is genuinly saved, they are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb. Is there a missing element to that equation, is it that plus something else? Therefore, if one is already truly justified in the eyes of God, what we are talking about here is sanctification.

To be honest with you brother, internal righteousness will exhibit itself in outward righteousness in some way. And it is interesting to me how people argue so strongly against externals of headcovering or less makeup and modesty etc. Why do we oppose things that are simply things that flow from an internal righteousness in a sister.

And obviously no-one is holy by one action they do and just by wearing a headcovering for one day does not make a sister holy.

Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc. Oh may God set us free to obey Him from the heart in all these areas and not hold back.

May He raise up a seperate people in these last days.

Greg, you wrote.......

"To be honest with you brother, internal righteousness will exhibit itself in outward righteousness in some way."

Brother, I and others have spent countless words trying to conve just that, simply even read my last post on this thread to Alan.

You write..........

"And it is interesting to me how people argue so strongly against externals of headcovering or less makeup and modesty etc. Why do we oppose things that are simply things that flow from an internal righteousness in a sister."

Brother, not one single time have I opposed head-coverings, nor have ever said that a woman should not dress modestly. I would expect every Christian woman to dress modestly. I would also expect every single Christian to do what is right with their money, whether they have much or little. My objection is to those who who set themselves up as the judge of what is modest( leaving aside head-coverings here for a moment) or how much money is too much money. What you are doing is usurping the Holy Spirit when you do this. I wont mention total obedience to man as we have had that discussion before.

Here, with your next statement, i think we finally get down to it, and it has taken a lot of digging, you write........

"Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc."

Here brother, in my opinion, you have made a grave error. The process of sanctification is a life-times work. God takes broken lifes, and with great patience ( oh thank you Lord) He begins to put it back together, piece by piece. Why do you think a Christian has to be broken Greg? Broken from what? What do you think the refining process is brother? Refining from what? Why do you think every Christian reading this has dross in their lives that needs to be refined? Dont you realize by the statement you made that you have just challenged almost every Christian on this site that they are really not Christians? If, your statement is correct, and someone disagrees with the standard that you have put forward and have been putting forward for weeks now, they then must not be sanctified,
thereofore, they are not truly saved. I believe that many people who have answered the posts that you put forward got that you were trying to say that, they got it in their spirit, but now you have, it seems, been honest.

Brother, let me say it one more time and I say this out of love for you, because to believe, if I am reading you correctly, what you believe must be a hard Romans 7 road to walk, we , as genuine Christians are totaly righteous in the eyes of God. When He looks at us, He sees us as covered by the Blood of Jesus. Its a finished work, you cannot add or take away from it, its a total package. But brother, you gave Him your life, its no longer yours, and He takes what He is given, what He has purchased. That is why when we are in the refining fire, we know that this is part of what brings us to be more like Him. It is a process to be more like Him. Our lives are spent becoming more like Him, precept upon precept. Every stronghold torn down. Please consider these words in love. I have yet to read a regular poster on this site on these last few threads argue against Holiness, argue against modesty, argue against becoming more like Jesus. What they have been arguing against is the notion that you just articulated. I thank you for your honesty Greg, now we can have a real discussion. I know that many of the wonderful saints on this site will have marvelous things to say about sanctification...........brother Frank

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?

I am finding the thread title to be troubling.as we speak of external righteousness. To me this does speak of a kegakisn, a praiseeism, and reminds me some ways of what Mislems teach in their religion. The very ones of us who would condenm the Saudi's of requiring their women to wear the hajib insist that sisters wear a vail to pray or prophesy or to remain silent in church.

Though this may not be intended there is a standard of holiness being set forth and unfortunately that standard is not Jesus or the fruit he bears through union with him. I see no emphasis on the Spirit or the fruit he bears. There is no emphasis on the cross, the crucified life, Christ living in us, his grace that brings about holiness.

If one had to define a Sermon Index holy woman I imagine it woukd be a sister who was KJV only, wore a head covering, stayed silent, and submissive,and meek to her husband. I have yet to define what a Sermon Index holy man is. I imagine one who is KJV only.

I am not trying to be caustic or cynical. But if we put the last few threads together this is what is emerging. The sad thing is the forum is losing some solid grace oriented people.

The sister who posted before me has already expressed concerns. I ask what is being communicated here. If holiness is going to be defined by externals then please let us who believe in grace and love know so we can quietly withdraw. For I already am seeing that those of us who believe in the inward work of the Spirit are being marginalized.

Blaine

HI Narrowpath, lets give the context of the Scripture you just quoted.......

Mat 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

You see what Jesus is saying here? The outside already looks really great, but inside they are like whitewashed tombs, full of dead mens bones. That is why there is a danger on a "FOCUS," on the outward appearance. Key word here being focus. The danger does not apply on the flip side. There is no danger in ' cleansing the inside of the cup," becaause out of that will flow a true, genuine Godliness that the whole world can see with their eyes. That is why I wrote just a few posts back that .........

"The internal issue is the whole, and it manifests itself outwardly. There can be no counterfieting this, there is no danger on focusing on the inner man, because, if our hearts are right, if we are walking in the Spirit, if we are moving in the holiness of God because we encounter Him and are changed in His presence, then it automaticly shows itself on the outside with love and mercy and forgiveness. The man who encounters God and His holiness loves more, he forgives more, he moves in mercy, he devours the Word of God. There is no danger in pursuing God with all of your heart, in fact it is what we must do and when we do then the externals are taking care of, they naturally flow from the inside out." ............brother Frank

Brother as we used to say back in the 60's 'Right on bro, right on'. My way of saying 'very good post'.

Blaine

"They conclude that because God is using someone, he exempts them from these "nasty and small commandments" and anyone who raises the slightest question is labelled a legalist"

Well brother, I cannot answer for anyone else, just myself and if you have been following along, you would know that this phrase " nasty and small commandments," is not and could not be part of my vocabulary.

You write............

"God does use people who do not do everything right and even promote some false teaching, and many stumble over this.
Spurgeon smoked, Wesley had long hair, Catherine Booth and Corrie tenBom preached, Luther got it wrong with the Jews.

Does that meant they were not used by God? No.

Does that mean that God exempted them from "the smaller commandments" and endorses all they did? No."

This has been one of the main points I have been trying to articulate. God bless you brother........brother Frank

Rbanks, you write..........

"If the Apostle Paul could say that if one is circumcised as a reason in trying to keep the Law in order to be accepted by God has fallen from grace, and also, at another time tell Timothy to be circumcised in order to minister the gospel to certain people so that they would be able to receive him. Why on earth would we want to put people in bondage to do something that turns the mainstream of the people we are trying to reach and minster to away from receiving us and the message of life and hope that so many desperately need."

This was the very point I was sharing with a dear brother down in Oklahoma as we discussed these threads and that issue. No one could have been more clear than Paul about circumcision, what it was and what it was not, yet because Timothy's father was a Greek and therfore he was not circumsised, Paul, in order not to cause a needless offence and a stumbling block, took Timothy and had him circumsised. If I went to China and the culture dictated that I take off my shoes before I entered someone's house, God forbid that I would be so proud as to refuse and cause a needless offence. Similiarly if they had such a custom before entering their churches, again off would come the shoes.

"I thank God that the leadership of TSC in New York and other godly ministries have enough wisdom and love for the lost and the church not to turn people off with a custom that is not conducive for the area they are ministering the gospel in."

I thank God too for that ministry brother and their wisdom and their love for the lost..........brother Frank

Quote" "Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc."Quote

Brother Frank and others,

I do feel there was a mis-interpretation of what I wrote. So let me try and clarify as best as I can in a short amount of space. Salvation from the Lord in justifying us by His blood sanctifies us. When we are first born-again we are justified and then also the process of sanctification begins. If sanctification is not there at all or starts to become apparent then one can doubt if the person was every justified. Sancitification cannot be had at once, it is not something you get at some point. It is as you were saying a continual process, this I do not disagree with.

But my entire point was a whole different aspect of looking at this. If a person is being progressively santified that santification will not be one of just an internal nature but will start to manifest itself outwardly. I actually cannot barely think of anything that we are sanctified in that will not lead to almost immediate ourward change.

Therefore outwards changes in a christians behaviour, dress, lifestyle, actions, and many other daily choices manifest the sanctification of the believer and ultimately the justification experience the believer had. The ways and desires of the world should not have a hold on or have place in the heart of the true heavenly pilgrim. The early church had different practices and customs then the gentiles around them. Christ continually taught for his disciples to live in a "markedly" different way then those around them. And if that santification that you have cannot touch any tangible area of dress, homes, cars, etc then you have a false santicification that is man-made or a person is decieved to think they can live anyway they please and still follow surrender to the Lord in every area of their life.

The Lord might have some give up things others will not have to. And many believers are in different areas of santification and growth in the Lord and casting off the cares and desires of this world. Thus we cannot impose strict rules on these areas but we must not disdain those who are following this way and truly are not happy to try and fit in with the styles and customs of this world.

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." - 1 John 2:15, James 4:4, John 15:19 (NIV)

Hi brother Greg,

I would like to use two quotes from what you have written and then give an explanation as to sanctification and where I believe that you are in error, and that error has manifested itself in the last few weeks in particular. First you write..........

"You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation"

I believe, given everything that you have written and the nature of your posts that you believe this, we must accept a mans words. The second quote is this.........

"And if that sanctification that you have cannot touch any tangible area of dress, homes, cars, etc then you have a false santicification that is man-made or a person is decieved to think they can live anyway they please and still follow surrender to the Lord in every area of their life."

I find it revealing and interesting that to you, a tangible demonstration of the process of sanctification is " dress, homes, cars ect." Real quick example before I give my explanation of sanctification. Violent drug dealing murderer comes to Jesus. He is wonderfully saved. He is no longer violent, he is a man of peace. A complete 180 in his life to the glory of God the Father. He is in the process of sanctification and the remarkable outworkings of the Lord in his life is demonstrated in the fact that he is a new creature. He happens to be a man of some means and drives into your church parking lot with a Lexus. You see this man, and despite the fact that he has had the most incredible transformation from the inside out, you judge the man because of the car that he drives, or the suit that he wears ect. There is no joy in your heart that the Lord has delivered this man and that this man is a remarkable trophy of grace, there is only judgement for this man, and as one of your articles stated, he could not be used for God because he does not pass the money test. Now brother, I dont actually believe that you would do this or dismiss this man because of his outward appearance, but the teachings that you have put forward and your understanding of sanctification would lead someone that did not know you personally to believe this. And remember, the Pharisee could have cared less about the character and nature and sinlessnes of Jesus, they hated him and plotted to kill him because He broke with one of their traditions, at least in their minds, by healing on a Sabbath. They did not care about the man healed, the only cared and reasoned that since Jesus healed on the Sabbath, then he could not possibly be of God.

Okay, now for sanctification, and I will try and be brief, but I think you will find this explanation to be orthodox. First, the word sanctify basically means to be set apart, it has the same root as the words holy and saint. There are three aspects of sanctification. The first is called "positional or definitive sanctification." (right here is where I believe you are in error, if this is your only understanding of what it means to be sanctified) This position relates to every single genuine born again Christian. They enjoy this position by virtue of being set apart as a member of the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. No matter what stage a Christian is at, this state is true for all ( weaker brothers, babes in Christ ect) In 1 Cor 1:2 and 6:11 Paul addresses a church that is acting very carnal but the verb indicates something that is accomplished, not something that is to be attained.

The second aspect of sanctification concerns the present experiential or progressive work of continuing to be set apart. Every command and exhortation to live a Holy life in the Scriptures falls into this category. 1 Pet 1:6

The third aspect of sanctification is typically referred to " ultimate sanctification," which is attained when this corruptible flesh is raised in incorruption, when we will be eternally set apart from sin, no longer to struggle with the law of sin that is in the flesh.

So brother Greg, if you mistakenly believe that there is only one aspect to sanctification, and believe that positional sanctification is the whole, then this would lead to error and a judgmental spirit. You would judge the man, or the woman, by their outward appearance. There would be no room for weaker brothers of babes in Christ or for the progressive path that they may be on, their would only be judgement that they have not attained what you may think yourself to have attained. Of course, in all of this, the greatest of all demonstrations of the sanctifying work of the Lord in a heart is the supernatural love that flows from them for our weaker brothers and for a dying world.

You can have everything else, but if you do not have this love then everything else is without worth. That is why the Scriptures say that you will know them by their love for one another. This is the key scriptural identifying mark of the born-again believer because the body of Christ is so diverse that only the Holy Spirit of the living God could bring them together and create such a love in their hearts. Let us keep in mind that this discussion is taking place between good brothers and sisters, not false professors or a lost evangelical world that lives any old way it pleases, that has been raised time and time again as a straw man in this discussion........brother Frank

Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the faith, but not to judgments of your thoughts.
Rom 14:2 For indeed one believes to eat all things; but being weak, another eats vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Brother, you write......

"Perhaps it is time to state clearly what the "orignial" poster of this thread had in mind by "externals"

Did you not write this post as an answer to the the post "Self-righteousness and a focus on the outward appearance." Or as a follow up to the post " The end of Holiness," which was a follow on from the post on head-coverings. The subject has stayed the same in all of them and the pattern is the same. Some point out the danger of " focussing," on the outward appearance, meaning manner of clothes, money, houses and cars, and then some cry out " No, you must not ignore what a man looks like on the outside,' which, to my knowledge no has done so far, certainly not me, So, having daid that and with that context let me say that I agree with much of the points you have just raised..........

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, PUT ON tender mercies, PUT ON kindness, PUT ON humility, PUT ON meekness, PUT ON longsuffering: PUT ON bearing with one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must DO."

"but my concern if for those who do not know where it comes from. I WANT THEM TO SEE IT IN ME!"

Amen brother. May the world see the glories of our Lord in us with all holiness, tender mercies, kindness and humility with meekness. Longsuffering with our weaker brothers and babes in Christ is most definately a sign of one moving closer to the Lord with a heart that is quick to forgive and not hold on to old issues as a matter of bitterness. Alan, could you explain what you believe " put on,' means, since we agree that love is the most important issue, how would you explain to a younger brother what it means to " put on," love. I have mu own opinion of this, but would like to hear yours.........brother Frank

"But above these things PUT ON love, which is the bond of perfection and let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..."

My heart is warmed at the direction of the last few posts and I look forward to hearing Alan and others opinions on what it means to " put on." It is a wonderful subject and only , in my opinion, good can cmoe out of it as we strive together to understand the " Beauty of Holiness."..............brother Frank