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Keswick (Deeper Life) Theology - Please Someone Help Me With This!

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MichaelLiao

Hey guys,

I just wanted to ask about Keswick Theology. I know there are guys in this camp such as Watchman Nee, Charles Trumbull, D.L. Moody, Hudson Taylor, and I assume Andrew Murray as well, and pretty much we hear them quote Galatians 2:20, "I'm crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith IN/OF the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." It can be called the Abiding Life, the Exchanged Life, Crucified Life, Christ in you etc. But recently I've come across some criticism against this kind of teaching by reformed people like J.I. Packer.

I have a lot of material that is rooted in Keswick theology, like "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee, I had "The Overcoming Life" by Nee as well, "Victory in Christ" by Charles Trumbull, "The Indwelling Life of Christ" by Major Ian Thomas, "Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secrets" by Mr. and Mrs. Howard Taylor, "The True Vine" by Andrew Murray, and many others. Their teachings seem biblical, not just found in Galatians 2:20, but in many parts of the Bible, that we ought to rest on the Lord, like Isaiah 40:28-31, Psalm 46:10, Psalm 68:19, John 15:5, Phil. 2:12-13, Phil. 4:13, Col. 1:27, 1 John 4:4, and many more. Can anyone please help me with this?

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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MichaelLiao

Anybody?

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Areadymind

On the "Audio Sermon's" page of this website there are 155 sermons posted by Alan Redpath, and Around 65 Sermons Posted by Major Thomas. The best answer for your questions would be to get out your bible, your journal, get some callouses on your knees and start listening to these preachers and evaluating what they say in light of scripture, with a heart that is willing to learn and a mind that is ready to receive, as well as weigh any false inclinations in the balances of truth.

Both of them were Keswick Preachers, and there are dozens of others on this website.

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MichaelLiao

Just to let everyone know, I am not advocating passivity in the Christian life, as many people have criticized Keswick theology for doing. I just don't have enough background on it.

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UntoBabes

I think our Reformed brethren got stuck wallowing in the slough of despond of Romans 7 and deny the rest of the Scriptures. This have brought so much shame to the name of Christ, and needs to be stopped.
Denying the exchanged life is denying the power of Christ in the church by the Holy Spirit, Revival, and church history.
Many Reformed characters who had the experience of the exchanged life dared not speak of it in obvious terms lest they be called heretics. Among those Jonathan Edwards, Whitefield, Spurgeon and anyone who was used by God in Revivals or awakenings.

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MichaelLiao

Wow! Really...

Edwards and Whitefield....

I did read up on Spurgeon and how his material was pretty close to it though.....

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Areadymind

Not only is this a great place to start, but this is also one of the best sermons on this website in my opinion. It is called "A Grain of Wheat" by Major Ian Thomas. It will give you an excellent encapsulation.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=270&commentView=itemComments


****Edit****

While it is one of my favorites, I realize my simply stating that pre-loads your reception, again value it based on what is said in light of scripture.

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UntoBabes

This is a good article about George Whitefield experience with the Holy Spirit baptism.
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199704/078_whitefield.cfm

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MichaelLiao

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2010/06/30/pietistic-goofiness-how-keswick-theology-nearly-destroyed-j-i-packer/

Here's a link to where J.I. Packer criticizes the Keswick theology. Tell me what you guys think....

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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UntoBabes

This is a quote by Jonathan Edwards.


" Once, as I rode out into the woods for my health, in 1737, having alighted from my horse in a retired place, as my manner commonly has been, to walk for divine contemplation and prayer, I had a view that for me was extraordinary, of the glory of the Son of God, as Mediator between God and man, and his wonderful, great, full, pure and sweet grace and love, and meek and gentle condescension. This grace that appeared so calm and sweet, appeared also great above the heavens. The person of Christ appeared ineffably excellent, with an excellency great enough to swallow up all thought and conception — which continued, as near as I can judge, about an hour; which kept me the greater part of the time in a flood of tears, and weeping aloud. I felt an ardency of soul to be, what I know not otherwise how to express, emptied and annihilated; to lie in the dust, and to be full of Christ alone; to love him with a holy and pure love; to trust in him; to live upon him; to serve and follow him; and to be perfectly sanctified and made pure, with a divine and heavenly purity. I have several other times had views very much of the same nature, and which have had the same effects."

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UntoBabes

Remember this one thing, friend.

Just because multitudes of people may believe with all their heart that God does not exist, some even may take a space craft and soar to the highest hights and not find him, that does not change the immutable truth that (( HE DOES EXIST )). The way is indeed narrow and few there be that find it.

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MichaelLiao

Thanks for the resources,

If I have time, I'll check them out!

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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sermonindex

I just wanted to ask about Keswick Theology. I know there are guys in this camp such as Watchman Nee, Charles Trumbull, D.L. Moody, Hudson Taylor, and I assume Andrew Murray as well, and pretty much we hear them quote Galatians 2:20, "I'm crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith IN/OF the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." It can be called the Abiding Life, the Exchanged Life, Crucified Life, Christ in you etc. But recently I've come across some criticism against this kind of teaching by reformed people like J.I. Packer.

This is a great question. There are many books on Keswick theology and the founding of the Keswick convention meetings in England. I believe Keswick came out of a burden to see unity in the body of Christ amongst those that were more closer to the heart of God in experiencing Christ.

Jesus Christ said that eternal life is to know God (experientially) John 17:3.

Keswick theology is an attempt to put the living Christ into day to day Christian living and to promote an overcoming life by the faith and power of the Holy Spirit. It is a doctrine of holiness and I believe the emphasis is not full but just part of the whole picture. It lacks practical implications of holiness and puts more the thoughts on holiness that is positional and declared.

It also carries with it thoughts about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man Thus it has reformed overlays in it.

In the end I believe that Keswick Theology was a wonderful movement and conventions that have conveyed part of the Christ living in us.

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sermonindex


I would also say that different Christian movements in history have given different terms to the same experience such as some people are touching on in this thread. The wesleyians called it "perfect love" some old holiness groups called it "second blessing" keswick theology calls it the "crucified life" reformers call it "sanctification" some modern groups call it the "baptism of the Spirit"

Christ in us the hope of glory is the end of the matter and is the reason that we are holy. Thus His Spirit filling us and having control of our lives is what makes us holy before God. And these experiences are many yet can be more pronounced several times in our life in experiencing and meeting with God.

I am glad God is larger then many theology boxes we put Him into.

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Christinyou

Quote:

"""Christ in us the hope of glory is the end of the matter and is the reason that we are holy. Thus His Spirit filling us and having control of our lives is what makes us holy before God. And these experiences are many yet can be more pronounced several times in our life in experiencing and meeting with God."""


Amen, Pure Paulean theology, "in Christ", and Christ in us, The fulfillment of the word of God. When God our Father looks at the Cross he sees me, When God looks at me He sees Christ. Praise God, the only way I have of being Holy is by the Christ in me.

In Christ: Phillip

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MichaelLiao

Thanks Brother Greg,

It is true, we don't want to box God in and limit Him with our finite minds. Though there are many names to this as you have brought up in this post, ultimately the application is the same, that is Christ in us, the hope of glory (Col. 1:27). The thing is though, how would you respond to a person who says that Keswick teaching advocates passivity? Of course, I do understand why other Christians would be concerned about that, as the Keswicks do talk about resting in the LORD.....

For example,

Watchman Nee has a quote like this, "This is the secret to the victorious life: we do nothing; He does it all. When we cease, He flows out. The more we cease, the greater He flows."

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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Christinyou

Quote:

"""Watchman Nee has a quote like this, "This is the secret to the victorious life: we do nothing; He does it all. When we cease, He flows out. The more we cease, the greater He flows." """

Yes, Michael; Paul states this perfectly.

Col 1: 28-29 "Perfect in Christ" Our labor according to His working in us mightily". This is the only labor that counts for the kingdom.

In Christ: Phillip

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Areadymind

It is interesting to me that passivity would be an accusation against their theology. I think I can understand why, but I would suggest that is either a caricature or a mis-representation of what I understand it to be about. I am far from an expert on it, which is why I hesitate to directly answer your questions. I would probably say something stupid to misrepresent them. However, I can say that books by Andrew Murray, Hudson Taylor, Major Thomas, Alan Redpath, and others who were involved in that movement tend to apply the New Covenant life in the way that makes the most sense to me, and also seems to be how I have understood it.

It is Christ in us, the hope of glory, and yet that will have a direct impact on our lives. As Watchman Nee once said..."The body of Christ is a reality, not a doctrine." John the Baptist also said, "He must increase, and I must decrease." John 3:30

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twayneb

Michaelliao:

I would not say that men such as Whitfield or Spurgeon are totally bad just as I would not say that all of what John Calvin wrote was bad. But I do think Reformed theology has some serious errors.

As to Nee and the like, I have found them to be men who walked in a revelation of God's word that has blessed me in a great way. I am sure I could find things there as well that I do not agree with, but I can tell you that I would wholeheartedly recommend Nee to any believer I meet. I am not familiar with J I Packer but I did read the link in your previous post. It left me scratching my head.

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MichaelLiao

Haha,

I remember Major Ian Thomas said, "Some people imagine that if you bow yourself out and bow the Lord Jesus in, if you die to self-effort and let God do it, that is passivity. Well it is passivity only if you consider God to be passive......"

I know that when it is Christ is in us and working through us, things happen. I mean it's because of listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and letting Christ in us flow out, that revivals can break out; that the Light of the World may be revealed in this dark world.

God help us all to rest upon the LORD and to not do things in the flesh...

May we have complete self-abandonment and just cling to the Lord Jesus Christ....

"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy Cross I cling..."

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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MichaelLiao

Zac Poonen himself is a Keswick/Deeper Life preacher and His teachings have convicted me and blessed me to be more diligent in Christ.

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sermonindex

Brother to quote John Bunyon. 'Pray and read and read and pray'. That is read your Bible and pray. Let God give you his insights. Bunyon also said 'a little from God is better than a whole lot from men'.

The downside with a place like Sermon Index is we can download all sorts of sermons and regugitate what they say. But is more of a challenge and a blessing to go to God and hear his voice. We need to be hearing for Jesus for ourselves.

Just some thoughts.

Blaine

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TrueWitness

Michael,
After reading that link you gave on Packer's dissatisfaction with Keswick teaching, commenter's to that article pointed out that all of the things Packer was critical of were corrected by the late 1980s. Anyway, I found a link near the bottom of the comments on that article you linked to that presents a balance view of Keswick theology as it is taught today:

http://www.bcmedu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:keswick-a-good-word-or-a-bad-one&catid=33:articles&Itemid=166

or

http://0101.nccdn.net/1_5/270/368/236/Good-one-or-Bad-one.pdf

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murrcolr

You'll find useful information on this site...

http://www.enterhisrest.org/

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MichaelLiao

Dear Brethren,

Thank you all for your resources. May the LORD richly bless you in his love, mercy, and grace.

Father, help us all in this time to know You and to seek Your face. We're living in the time of trial, but we ask for your grace to bring us through, and the power to stay in the truth, for very easily we can stray. God help us, we cannot help ourselves in these matters. I ask Lord for my brothers and sisters here to press on and not give up on this race. So God help us all...

In Jesus' Name,

Amen

Father, gives us grace
To seek Your face
To know the price that has been paid
That on that Cross, when Jesus died
He bore our sin to grant us life

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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pilgrim777

Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. This is a typical response coming from Christendom, today.

Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. "Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous."

In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous? Does God want us to walk in righteous or just confess it?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

Pilgrim

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Christinyou


Small excerpt from "a good word or bad word".


"""Inaccurate Accusations Passivity
Some accuse Keswick of passivity. This is probably because Keswick emphasizes resting in Christ. However, the emphasis is not to sit back and do nothing, but rather trust to obey! The emphasis is not idle passivity, but active cooperation—the cooperation of surrendering to the Spirit’s leadership and depending on His enablement. This is walking in the Spirit, which obviously involves steps, not quietistic passivity. But the steps are steps of faith, not the mere motions of flesh-dependent activity. This is what brings rest, for when you yoke up with Jesus, He carries the load!
Keswick denounces “struggle theology,” which is flesh-dependence in an effort to live the Christian life, because works-sanctification is just as wrong as works-justification (Gal. 3:1-3). You do not get justified by faith, and then get sanctified by struggle. Sanctification is also by faith, for “without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb.11:6). Obviously there are struggles in life, but flesh-dependence for frustrated Christian living is an unnecessary struggle. Faith for victory means you are depending on the victorious Life of Christ to enable you to obey. It is not a matter of you trying to live the Christian life (hollow motions), it is a matter of trusting the indwelling Christ to enable you for the steps of obedience (empowered motions). So victory without trying does not mean victory doing nothing; it means victory with trusting. True faith is not an inward, “navel-gazing,” self-focus; it is focusing rather on Christ, the true object of faith, that He might express His Life through yours. To accuse Keswick theology of passivity is simply not accurate."""

Answer to your question: " Is faith a substitute for repentance? "

No, it is the substance of it.

http://www.bcmedu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:keswick-a-good-word-or-a-bad-one&catid=33:articles&Itemid=166

In Christ: Phillip


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pilgrim777

That's pretty good, Phillip.

Abraham was not justified for just "believing", he actually did something that proved he believed.

To walk as Christ walked is definitely "doing." But it is doing by faith.

Walking in the Spirit is doing. Resting is doing. Fighting the flesh and walking after the Spirit is doing.

Surrendering to the Spirit is doing.

We are to walk as Jesus walked. He always DID what He saw His Father DOING, He always spoke, what He heard His Father SPEAKING, etc. And so it is with us.

The Christian walk is very active yet at rest (in Him). Resting from our own works of righteousness, we walk in His righteousness. From glory to glory and faith to faith we are supposed to experientially walk in more and more righteousness (called growing up in Christ to maturity).

Pilgrim


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Christinyou

"""It is not a matter of you trying to live the Christian life (hollow motions), it is a matter of trusting the indwelling Christ to enable you for the steps of obedience (empowered motions)."""

Empowered works. By His working in me mightily.

Perfect in Christ:

Col 1: 28-29

In Christ: Phillip

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pilgrim777

Amen, Phillip.

We must walk in His ways, strength, peace, rest, and His WORKS. His works are His will.

Jesus said, "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work", John 4:34

That is our meat (work), too.

Find His will and you will find your work. It's not that complicated but we make it complicated.

Martyr,

You are right. We have to trust the Holy Spirit more to speak to us and explain His Word. We trust men more than the Holy Spirit. What He gives you, no man can take away, but what you get from men you can often be talked out of.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex


I just wanted to ask about Keswick Theology. I know there are guys in this camp such as Watchman Nee, Charles Trumbull, D.L. Moody, Hudson Taylor, and I assume Andrew Murray as well, and pretty much we hear them quote Galatians 2:20, "I'm crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith IN/OF the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." It can be called the Abiding Life, the Exchanged Life, Crucified Life, Christ in you etc. But recently I've come across some criticism against this kind of teaching by reformed people like J.I. Packer.

`I have a lot of material that is rooted in Keswick theology, like "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee, I had "The Overcoming Life" by Nee as well, "Victory in Christ" by Charles Trumbull, "The Indwelling Life of Christ" by Major Ian Thomas, "Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secrets" by Mr. and Mrs. Howard Taylor, "The True Vine" by Andrew Murray, and many others. Their teachings seem biblical, not just found in Galatians 2:20, but in many parts of the Bible, that we ought to rest on the Lord, like Isaiah 40:28-31, Psalm 46:10, Psalm 68:19, John 15:5, Phil. 2:12-13, Phil. 4:13, Col. 1:27, 1 John 4:4, and many more. Can anyone please help me with this?

In Christ,

- Michael Liao`

Hi Michael

Packer and others of Reformed persuation accused the `Keswick lot` of preaching a gospel of passivity beause they misunderstood the doctrine that says that there must come a point in the life of the believer, when he sees that his works, despite good intentions, have originated in his own mind and therefore the flesh, even converted flesh, and not from the Spirit of God which can only be discerned when one leaves behind the essentials and goes on to perfection as in Hebrews.

Second Blessing as a term is rather misleading and I do not like to use it. What Keswick is talking about is A TRANSLATION INTO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MODE OF OPERATION. It is a new life of living in the rest from the working of the human mind and not just another blessing in a line of blessings.

Packer along with other Reformers, would not accept that everything is not received at conversion, and of course they are right, everything is ours - potentially but not practially until we learn what it means for the flesh to die.

`This is a good article about George Whitefield experience with the Holy Spirit baptism.
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199704/078_whitefield.cfm`

The article is not about the so called second blessing but his conversion is mentioned. He opposed Wesleys understanding og as further work.

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MichaelLiao

True faith is not an inward, “navel-gazing,” self-focus; it is focusing rather on Christ, the true object of faith, that He might express His Life through yours.

Man, when I read that today on this forum, the Holy Spirit just fell on me while I was studying at school for a mid-term. May God richly bless you Brother Phillip for continuously glorifying Christ in Your service to Him. You continue to be a pump of the living waters of Christ into my life. The LORD reward you for your service....

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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Christinyou

Thanks Michael,

He rewarded me 2000 years ago in the person who is our faith.

In Christ: Phillip

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MichaelLiao

Hey SI,

I just wanted to come back to this post again because I have another question about Keswick (Deeper Life) Theology. The question is, since Keswick theology holds to the view of a person being in Romans 7 and has not passed into Romans 8 (Particularly Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray), doesn't that promote the Carnal Christian doctrine? Basically you are carnal first after you are justified in Christ, and then sanctification is a separate work. Or you need to have some "Deeper Life Experience" in order to get to a spiritual point (Romans 8).

I ask this not to discredit the men I've brought up here, but simply because I believe that Romans 7 is an unregenerate man and that Romans 7 and 8 is explaining the conversion process in Romans 6.

Here's a sermon by Charles Leiter where he's refuting the Deeper Life view. He holds to an unregenerate view of Romans 7 as well:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6280831463


In Christ,

- Michael Liao

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Christinyou

It really does not matter what view you believe, 1,2,3 the truth Paul wants us to know is "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, so with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

So if we find ourselves in any one of the three circumstances and situation, we triumph in Christ Jesus. If I am unregenerate, I am condemned; if I am walking in the flesh, I am condemned; if I am serving sin, I am condemned. But; Paul says there is a way we are delivered. "Who has delivered us, who doth deliver, and who will deliver?" "Praise God through Jesus Christ our Lord". So no matter where we are we are delivered through Jesus Christ who lives in us and the "Life we live we live by the faith of the Son of God. His Life, His deliverance, His faith, He is our all in all.

I love this song; Keep your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of His Glory and Grace.

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

Michael Liao wrote

"The question is, since Keswick theology holds to the view of a person being in Romans 7 and has not passed into Romans 8 (Particularly Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray), doesn't that promote the Carnal Christian doctrine?"

You have, and Charles Leiter touched on exactly why Keswick theology is wrong. There cannot be a carnal Christian. One is either walking in the flesh or in the Spirit and as Leiter said, Justification cannot be separated from Sanctification, in scripture they are joined. However, many think they have been justified when in fact they have just known Christ as the forgiver of sins and have not gone on to perfection.

Romans 7 is not an unregeneratede man as only a believer can say with Paul verse 22 chapter 7 that he delights in the law of God after the inward man. This is the experience of only a true believer (I wish to diferentiate between a believer and a Christian) The Jew believes that he is perfect if he obeys the law in the outward man as Paul testifies himself elsewhere in scripture. Only the believer knows that it must come from the inward man.

It is also not, as said correctly, the normal experiece of a Christian who does not have victory over sin.

Kerswick theology although wrong is nearer the mark than those who deny a second experience. And they are both wrong to ascribe the title Christian in the early stages.

I will listen to the other sermons with interest thanks for them.

Brenda


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elected

Michael Liao wrote:

"The question is, since Keswick theology holds to the view of a person being in Romans 7 and has not passed into Romans 8 (Particularly Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray), doesn't that promote the Carnal Christian doctrine?"

"Here's a sermon by Charles Leiter where he's refuting the Deeper Life view. He holds to an unregenerate view of Romans 7 as well"


I listened to the sermon and I agree with most of what the preacher said about romans 7. It was like a revelation to me to understand that Paul in Romans 7 is sharing his experience when he was under law and not grace.

In Romans 7: 14 Paul is of the flesh and sold under sin but in Romaans 8 Paul is in Christ Jesus and and walks according to the Spirit.

In Romans 7 :24 Paul is a wrenched man but in Romans 8 he is a blessed man.

In chapter 7:3-24 Paul is a defeated man, the more he tries to please God by obeying the law the more powerless he felt to overcome indwelling sin but in chap 8:37 he is more than conqueror through Jesus Christ.

Paul was not a devided man with a splitted personality, who had his moments when he was living in the flesh when he was not living in the Spirit. If that was true, he would have been a carnal christian when he wrote the letter to the romans and that is impossible. When he wrote the letter to the romans, he was a mature christian and an example to follow for other believers of his time.


I believe that applying Romans 7 to carnal christians is out of context and it was not the original intent or meaning of the apostle but there is still a valid point to apply it to christians who are not walking in the Spirit but are living defeated life styles.

I dont believe the keswick movement was promoting carnal christianity, in fact it was a movement inspired by the Holy Spirit to wake up the sleeping church to its responsibility to live a holy life before a holy God. Some of the best devotional writers of the church have come out of that movement.

Some christians especially from the reform tradition are quick to point at their errors but slow to recognize their great contribution in preaching and promoting genuine holiness.

It is true that to be a christian it means to be christlike and walk in the Spirit and you either are a sinner walking in the flesh or a saint (according to NT term) walking in the Spirit. The middle ground is being lukewarm, with one foot in the world and one foot in the kindgom of God. is not the last description characteristic of many christians in these last days? Many bible teachers like Andrew Murray were burdened to see the church revived and come out of her spiritual apathy and lukewarmness.

Lukewarm christianity is not acceptable to God, but is it not a fitted description for many born again christians today who are neither hot nor cold for God? And those godly men who recognize this lukewarm spiritual state and point to a solution in Christ, are they promoting carnal christianity by accepting its reality and pointing out to the true way by the grace of God?


- edited


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wayneman

The old Keswick Deeper Life Movement is proof that "Today's heresy is tomorrows orthodoxy." Dispensational theology and "the Finished Work of Calvary" were the doctrinal distinctives that made Keswick controversial, but today they are widely accepted.

The Finished Work of Calvary teaching refuted the Wesleyan Doctrine that Christian Perfection could be attained thru a "second blessing" and that an instantaneous experience of "full sanctification" subsequent to conversion was necessary to enter into the victorious Christian life.

Keswick instead taught that you receive all the blessings of salvation the moment you believe. You don't need any special additions because "In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and ye are complete in Him." (Col. 2:9-10)So it is not a matter of receiving a second helping of grace, but, as Austin-Sparks said, "realizing what we come into when we come into Christ."

The idea that we enter into union with God at the end of some long, arduous course of spiritual discipline and self-mortification is a doctrine of Eastern Mysticism, Kaballah and Romanism, and many in Keswick felt that Methodism led people along the same path. Or at least that Methodism put too much emphasis on human performance and human willpower. As Theologia Germanica says, "He who helpeth a man to his own will helpeth him to the worst that he can be."

I do not know of a single Keswick teacher who said that Romans 7 describes the normal Christian life. They all said that it describes the believer who has brought himself back under law because he fails to understand who he is in Christ and to "stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free."

The emphasis is on sanctification as a free gift, not a payment for diligence in spiritual duty. "Stop striving and start trusting."

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Christinyou

Quote: """The emphasis is on sanctification as a free gift, not a payment for diligence in spiritual duty. "Stop striving and start trusting." """

Amen; Striving to do is taking the trusting to be and putting all the responsibility on us. How could The Father trust us to put to use what Christ in us has, is and will do.

Lets go on into perfection and be, be-ers then the doing will be fruit unto God our Father.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him (God the Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Be Be-ers in Him first and the doing then will count as righteousness in us because He, the only righteous One, is made our righteousness by God our Father birthing the incorruptable Seed, Jesus Christ in us. This is a be-er and I can do nothing for it except to believe God about His Son, then trusting Jesus Christ for my life in all I do. ""Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily""

In Christ: Phillip

S
Sree

Brother Michael,

Do you believe in Packer's comments?

As a person who is influenced by Zac Poonan's teachings and who believes in Bible as the only reference, I do not agree with Packer's last comment which I have quoted below.


it offers a greater measure of deliverance from sin than Scripture anywhere promises

I can quote many verses to prove him wrong. Victory over sin is possible and Jesus has attained it. If we believe in him we will be able to do all things that he has done and this is his promise. So we can also have the victorious life he has attained. I think the problem with Parker is he got struck with wrong understanding of Romans 7, thinking Paul was talking about himself there.

I agree with the discontentment that Parker has gone through his life by his own failure to attain victory. I have crossed that phase in my life. Even Zac Poonan hit that lowest rock bottom in his life. But instead of running away from this life we need to run towards it with brokenness. I guess Packer ran away from it and decided that this life promised by scripture is false and he has devised his own theology.

Beware of such false theology, Victorious life is possible and it is in Jesus. Let us purify our self as he is pure.

My favorite scripture to prove Packer wrong is -
1 John 3-2:-
We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

C
Christinyou

Quote: """ So we can also have the victorious life he has attained."""

Have you attained it yet? Philippians 3:12-14 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

I am still pressing toward the mark and believe even when we go the Fathers House, we will be learning this mark for all eternity, In Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit whom we have in us forever.

In Christ: Phillip

R
roadsign

I am encouraged by the comments here – after getting over my shock about the imperfections of Keswick. This reminds me of the words to a hymn, ‘Prone to wander, Lord I know it”. Surely works-centered living has been one of the most tempting “bunny trails” for zealous believers – and Keswick was not immune. But then, doesn’t that prove Romans 7 to be an ever-present reality in Christian living? Christians are forever slipping into law-living?

Ironside would be another example, like JI Packer, who became tormented by holiness teachings - until he stopped striving for it, and simply accepted the state of rest in Christ’s free gift.

I’ve heard Rom 7-8 preached as a split; and it has always made me feel distressed, and ashamed about my own real experiences and struggles. (So, for now I’m too afraid to listen to such a sermon again) Actually, I did read over Rom. 7 and 8, and I see no distinction between past and present - at least, between the chapters. Romans 7 is speaking in the present tense. Also, how can Romans 7 even be true for a non-believer? They do not even have the law of the Spirit at work within – to spawn this struggle. Only believers can experience that, is that not correct? And furthermore, Paul would not have needed to exhort believers in Romans 8 to be ruled by the Spirit if the sinful nature was no longer an ever-present option. As some of you are pointing out, the victory is not that the sinful nature is absent, but that we are not doomed by it, and we have the life of the Spirit within to give us victory.

You refresh my spirit with these words:

The emphasis is on sanctification as a free gift, not a payment for diligence in spiritual duty. "Stop striving and start trusting."

AB Simpson has the same effect on me – through his hymn, ‘Himself”. I especially like vs. 2.


1.\tOnce it was the blessing,
Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling,
Now it is His Word;
Once His gift I wanted,
Now, the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing,
Now Himself alone.
\tAll in all forever,
Only Christ I'll sing;
Everything is in Christ,
And Christ is everything.

2.\tOnce 'twas painful trying,
Now 'tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation,
Now the uttermost;
Once 'twas ceaseless holding,
Now He holds me fast;
Once 'twas constant drifting,
Now my anchor's cast.

3.\tOnce 'twas busy planning,
Now 'tis trustful prayer;
Once 'twas anxious caring,
Now He has the care;
Once 'twas what I wanted,
Now what Jesus says;
Once 'twas constant asking,
Now 'tis ceaseless praise.

4.\tOnce it was my working,
His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him,
Now He uses me;
Once the pow'r I wanted,
Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored,
Now for Him alone.

5.\tOnce I hoped in Jesus,
Now I know He's mine;
Once my lamps were dying,
Now they brightly shine;
Once for death I waited,
Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored
Safe within the veil.

Source: http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/513#ixzz1g2yZtK3L

S
soberworld

The central scripture at Keswick was Romans 6:3-4 "Rom 6:3-4
Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV. So Keswick took the position that the Christian died with Christ on Calvary, and reckons himself to be dead. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.KJV
So we reckon our 'selves' our old nature to be dead. Gal 2;20, I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, Yet not I. Gal 6:14 Gal 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.KJV
The problem in understanding Keswick theology is in a word, "I".
I am crucified with Christ as a natural body and I am raised a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:44 It "I" is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. KJV
"Yet not I" or Yet not ego.Self has no part in it.So we continue to reckon our"selves" to be dead. (Initial Sanctification and progressive sanctification.)
See: "The Reckoning that Counts." Miles Stanford. www.withchrist.org.
Also: "The Centrality of the Cross" Jessie Penn-Lewis http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/jessiepenn-lewis/8791/8791tc.htm
Also: www.yetnoti.com
Also: www.soberworld.com - "Absolutely Sober-A History, Principles and Practice of The Destruction of Self-Centeredness" recounts (a) history and prehistory of Keswick and its link through the Oxford Group, with Alcoholics Anonymous.
Self "I" begins to shut up. When it does, we begin to hear Holy Spirit. We then walk in the Spirit.
I hope this helps.

Z
Zionshield

Watchman warned about the dangers of the misunderstandings of the working of God that would lead one into passivity. he wrote a great deal about it in "The Spiritual Man".

It may be that only Christians that have been thoroughly broken can understand this teaching as they have their own experience to relate it to. They experience the weakness and inability in themselves to accomplish a task like teaching or testifying or preaching. They rely on the Lord to strengthen them in this work rather than plowing through in their own strength.

I see the "doing nothing" as not launching out in our own strength...like coming out of hiding in Christ. It is actively abiding which requires at times mortifying the desires of the flesh, actively using the mind, wrestling with the spirit. Its hard to explain.

I've known people, among them pastors, that don't agree with the teaching. I think its easy to dismiss it because its so hard to obtain and it gets frustrating for them.

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