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On the role of a prophet

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docs

I was reading an interesting article titled "The Hebraic View of Prophecy" and got a few points listed below I thought I would share.

- The prophet was the bearer of a special message from God, particularly addressed to his own nation or contemporaries, and usually at a time of national crises.

- The prophet would diagnose the nation’s true condition before God

- The prophet would interpret the cause of present ills

- The prophet would declare and interpret the divine will according to the covenant

- The prophet would exhort and comfort the penitent remnant who gave heed to his message

- The prophet would warn the impenitent of the wrath that draws near in the always imminent Day of the Lord.

Me: The Day of the Lord is ultimately the final eschatological day of judgment but also the impenitent and the nation could experience a chastising day of the Lord in their own contemporary circumstances.

Maybe there's some food for thought for the church in the above. I believe if not at a point of crisis that we are near it.

Blessings.

S
sermonindex

The Prophetic Function by Art Katz ~

The quintessential definition of the prophetic call is given to Jeremiah at the inception of his ministry:

Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, “Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant.” (Jer. 1:9,10).

The first expression of the prophetic calling is judgment. Unless we have a stomach for that, then we will not be allowed the privilege of the word that builds and plants. Note the order of the words: the hardest thing first. Everything that is painful to the flesh and that will earn for us the displeasure of men must first be addressed.

The prophet is called to pluck up and break down the things that are dear to men, namely, their religious tradition, the false things that they have celebrated for generations, the things that they want to cling to because it has to do with their identity and their dignity and the way in which they even see themselves.

Men will kill for this and yet the prophet has got to tear down and destroy. The things that are false will be contended for fiercely! He has got therefore to be painful and a destroyer. His word then is destructive before it is benevolent. Unless we are willing to speak the destructive word, we will never be used for benevolence. Only the prophets who were faithful to speak the word of exile and judgment were also the prophets who spoke the word of restoration and return. They were given the privilege of speaking the creative word of restoration.

It would be a much simpler task if we just had to establish fresh principles where it falls on virginal consciousness. When you first have to deal with and penetrate a whole existent medley of opinions and traditions that have become dear (if not sacrosanct), you will ironically be accused of being opposed to God!

A prophet not only identifies falsity, but he ruthlessly destroys it. There is something about his word that is like a fire. It is plucking up, rooting out and destroying before it is planting and rebuilding. Who wants to hear men like that? They not only just bring things into question, but they absolutely reduce it to rubble before your eyes. For you to pick it up after that is to touch the unclean thing. They have identified it and now you are stuck with that word. It is little wonder that such men are not welcome in places where people want to continue their lifestyle unchallenged.

A prophet critiques and unsparingly lays bare, without fear and regard of man, the lie or even ‘conventional’ truth, that is to say, the assumed, mindless, uncontested premises that constitute death in the midst of life. It is to reveal the lie, to expose it and to ‘blow the whistle.’ That lie may well be the lies of the false prophets. The whole world is predicated on lies, but how shall it know unless a word of truth comes. If that word is to come, then it is to come from one who is totally without fear of man.

We all know that the fear of man is the most powerful and crippling factor that works in the lives of God’s ministers. To be free of that and to speak without regard to the fear of man is an ultimate statement that implies such a history of dealing with that servant. We are all born with the fear of man. We live for the regard of man, for their acknowledgment and for their applause.

Men love the acknowledgments of men, particularly prestigious men, but we have got to be weaned away from that necessity. It is a process; it does not take place in a day. Every time that God brings us to that place of weaning, we have got to submit to it, until we come to the place where we do not need it. We need to come to the place where we are not only indifferent to the applause of men, but also to their criticisms and reproaches.

A prophet requires, therefore, an extraordinary discernment to critique and an analytical ability honed by the Spirit. It is not a ‘taking of pot shots’, but an apprehending of God’s own view of something, and expressing that.

The prophet’s own lifestyle must itself, therefore, be a repudiation of the lie. We cannot ‘blow the whistle’ on false values if we ourselves are subscribing to them. There is something about poverty that is more than an accident or happenstance. It is appropriate to the authenticity of our union with God. Camel’s hair garments and the eating of locusts are symbolically intrinsic to the prophetic life.

There is a reason why John the Baptist was in the wilderness and not in Jerusalem, though he was the son of a priest. He could not be where the Establishment was. He could not enjoy its benefits and at the same time ‘blow the whistle’ on the falsity of it. We cannot in our own lifestyle indulge in the very thing that we are condemning before others. Lifestyle is, therefore, remarkably important with regard to the word that is to be proclaimed and probably nothing more betrays whether you are a true or false prophet than this.

The false prophets ate from Jezebel’s table. Elijah had to be fed by ravens and live by the side of a brook. It is not that one seeks to wear a camel’s hair garment because it is romantic or that you have to dress in such a way that marks you as being distinctive and different. The values that are false cannot have a place in us.

A prophet is called to reveal the lie, the underlying premises that need to be examined in the light of God about value, about life and its purposes, and therefore your own lifestyle must be a repudiation of that lie, however much society and even the church legitimates it. A prophet’s speaking not only reveals the lie but condemns and judges it. His word as is his life itself is a divine destruct.

When Elijah said, “There shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word (1 Kings 17:1b),” it was not just saying that there will be a little difference in your weather pattern. It meant that they were not going to have crops. They were not going to eat. They were going to experience a famine.

It was going to be a judgment from God and it was to come through the speaking of Elijah’s word. His word was not just a piece of information or an interpretation, however much it may be that, but rather it was a statement of judgment. It would actually affect the whole nation. That kind of word needs to be revived and restored. It is a trembling proposition to bear, and I can think of a few minor instances in my own experience where my word was a word of judgment, and God acted according to what I spoke. The church to whom it was spoken no longer exists because that was the word of judgment itself.

The prophet’s task is to establish an alternative, powerful and valid enough to utterly displace the lie. He presents a view of reality not yet existent and that is contrary in most points and particulars to that which is thought to be ‘real’ and for which there is no precedent or model in the experience of the hearer.

He brings a heavenly and an eternal sense that obliterates the kind of validation and endorsement that the world’s values have had upon his hearers up to that time. If he had not come, they would have thought that what they were celebrating was real. When the prophet comes, however, he is not only blowing the whistle on what is false, but he brings a sense of what is true and what is eternally true. He brings the sense of eternity itself and inducts the hearer into it.

By his speaking, he sets in motion and brings his audience to a place where the false becomes true. The word becomes creative and establishes the resonance of something not understood before—something that is ultimate and eternal. To pierce through the false and raise another kind of a standard and make that the foundation of life is, and must be, an extraordinary kind of speaking.

Those who embrace this model that the prophet is setting forth as the alternative to the lie, and that is a heavenly alternative, condemn themselves to being pilgrims and sojourners in the earth, and therefore able to die ‘not having received the promise.’ If they are going to receive a prophetic word like this that calls them to the heavenly vision in which Abraham walked, then this is going to be the consequence for their life. The word, therefore, that comes to the hearers has got to come with such a power, authority and credibility that the person who hears says, “If I say ‘Yes’ to this, then I am signing my death warrant.” No-one is going to sign that lightly who has not been persuaded by the word that invites that kind of consecration.

Only a prophet, a foundational man, can bring a word of that kind. He calls for something of ultimate consecration on the part of the hearer— unto death. That is why false prophets are more invited and listened to than the true. The false prophet affirms the hearer in his present condition and tells him that in that he is already ‘well-pleasing’.

The prophet’s purpose is singly and jealously the Father’s will. He restores lost vision of a kind that energizes the people of God, especially in crisis times when despair needs to be turned to hope—having initially been stripped of false hopes by the prophet himself. He does not balk at having to be cruel before he can be kind.

A man who can bring the necessary but painful, cruel word that must come in order to build is not unloving but very love itself. In a word the prophet brings the ‘moment of truth’. Standing in the counsel of the Lord he is able to perceive error and state boldly and unequivocally the requisite truth though it be utterly at variance with the consensus being demonstrated.

The prophetic task is to restore to men who have lost it, the biblical mentality and the biblical view of things that are unchanging in God’s sight. He conveys the view of God particularly to a people who are unwilling to hear it. If the prophetic word is critical to bringing an alignment of God’s people with His own view, then the kind of word that is brought by the prophets is the ultimate issue. Where there are authentic prophets who are willing to bring the unwelcome word, so will there also be a plenitude of popular false prophets who bring the false word of comfort and who say, “Peace, peace” when there is no peace.

A prophet does not major in minors. Out of a consummate jealousy for the glory of God, he sets forth the ultimate purposes of God in such a way as to obtain the sacrifices of his hearers to fulfill it. It is not enough just to set forth what God’s program is, but to set it forth in such a way that he has won the willingness of the hearers to be participant in obtaining the ultimate and eternal purposes of God— as sacrifice.

That is where the prophetic word is more than the word of explanation. It does not just explain what the eternal purposes of God are, but he communicates it in such a way as to win the commitment of his hearers to the sacrifice necessary to fulfill them. That takes more than explanation. The prophet epitomizes the suffering that such an adherence evokes. In other words, those who are going to embrace the view that he is presenting are opening themselves to suffering.

The prophet, therefore, who is inviting them to that suffering has himself in some sense to exhibit it and give the evidence that this is God’s way and that the cross is central to the faith. He makes clear to his hearers that persecution, if not martyrdom, is intrinsic to a faith of this kind—and wins their willingness. It is one thing to establish that the cross, persecution and martyrdom are intrinsic to the faith, but to win the hearer’s consecration to that call is an extraordinary stroke that requires the authority and anointing of those who bear His word. That is the prophetic task.

We are not bringing information, but rather calling men to ultimate, sacrificial things and that is why that kind of a word will always be resisted.

The prophet announces and projects the impending end of this world in apocalyptic fury and judgment, sufficient to birth the longing for a new heaven and a new earth in which there is righteousness. He not only brings to the awareness of the hearer that the world that they have celebrated is under judgment and is intended for destruction, which means it will destroy a lot of where their own heart is, but he also births a longing for the thing that comes down from above and which will replace this present age.

A prophet is a man of the word who abhors lightness while deeply respecting and guarding the sanctity of language and its meaning from abuse and cheapening. He is not, therefore, always your enjoyable household guest and is not good for easy conversation and small talk. He guards his mouth because he knows the sanctity of words and will not, therefore, give himself to frequent speaking as it debases the currency of words. There is with him a history of waiting and silences.

A prophet shuns the distinctions and honors that men confer. These things bring a certain aura of prestige and eminence and weight, but the prophetic man, in order to be true to God is the ‘wilderness’ prophet. Wilderness does not just mean physical isolation, but a conscious and willful separation from the kinds of things that are calculated to compromise.

He does not effect any kind of prophetic outward ‘appearance’ to indicate his office. He is unprepossessing in appearance and demeanor and despises what is showy, sensational or bizarre. A prophet is intent on turning men to God and not to himself.

This calling is given and is not something that we ourselves summon or take for ourselves, but if we have it, then we need to know that God is going to work us over, again and again, in order to ensure that it is His word that comes forth and not our own.

D
docs

Thanks for that article. You can never go wrong with me bringing Brother Art's perspective to any conversation about prophets and many more things. I may have read that particular article before but even if I had it was like reading it for the first time. I saw Brother Art speak once and his word devastated the entire room of hearers and as I sat there afterward though devastated I felt more alive in the Spirit than perhaps at any time. Art's words sheared away flesh and fleshly perspectives to where only the Spirit was left. I guess that is a proper way to describe it. If that is the standard and modus operandi of the prophet then I don't think our modern "prophetic" movements have so much met the standard. They exalted the gift of personal prophecy even making it a substitution for the office of prophet. How many meetings opened with "Prophet so and so is here today" when there was nothing going on but the gift of personal prophecy. I'm not of the prophetic temperment but I remain uneasy when the candidiates for office today speak of grand and spiritred plans to heal the economy and restore America's place in the world as number one when the economy and America's place in the world are not what needs healing. It leaves you desiring the other world which is the kingdom of Christ. Like most of us likely I grow more and more uneasy also when the church seems to throw in with secular movements that dulls its prophetic voice. Thanks for that timely and important article.

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sermonindex

amen.

but are men REALLY ready for the wages the prophet recieves?

whether it the cave or the hole...or the lonely nights, or the lash and the beating? the scorn?

the heart torn asunder with grief, of what is to come to the people who harden their hearts?

and did you notice that both Isaiah and Jeremiah both initially resisted this Calling?...or how FAR Elijiah ran?...or how hard Jesus wept in the garden?

the closet you can come to this wage, is get on your knees, and pray what Evan Roberts prayed, "Bend me O LORD, bend me".

but only pray this is, if you REALLY ready, to get bent and broken, its not a jolly merry time, this death to self.

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sermonindex

Neil writes.........

"but are men REALLY ready for the wages the prophet recieves?

whether it the cave or the hole...or the lonely nights, or the lash and the beating? the scorn?"

Thats exactly right brother..........brother Frank

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sermonindex

But the question is do we have such in America today. We read in Hebrews 11:35-38 those early saints who were insulted, mistreated, thrown in prison even sawed in two. They lived in caves and holes in the grond. Yet the writer of Hebrews said theme world was not soggy of them. They were commended for their faith.

Who are those who are recieving their wages for a prophetic declaration of Christ today? Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran sentenced to be hung for his faith in Christ. Aasi Bibi in Pakistan sentenced to be Hung for declaring Christ to some Moslem women. Several hundred believers in Eritrea crammed into shipping containers for their faith in Christ. Several thousand believers in N. Korea enslaved in death camps for following Christ. And so forth. These are the wages that those in restricted ountriess get for following Jesus.

So far I have not seen any prophets in America drawing such wages. For that matter very few Christians including myself.

Bkaine

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Nellie

A true Prophet will not bring honor to himself.
I am a Prophet or I am a Prophetess.
The ones who call attention to themselves only want money, or whatever glorifies them.There are quite a few people who say they are a Prophet.
We need to ask God for discernment in the day we live in.

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sermonindex

GOD Bless your reply Brother Docs.

Art Katz is the only one I've 'met' on the internet that claimed to be a prophet and actually was.

GOD Bless you, Brother.

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sermonindex

It has been ny observation over the years, that when you hear someone tell you that they are a prophet, you can be reasonably sure that they are not........brother Frank

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sermonindex


BTW Brother Frank, forgot to say that I snatched that piece by Art Katz from your website.

Thanks

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sermonindex

If we look at what the prophets did in the Old Testament, they were sent by God to call Israel back to himself as she turned away from God. They were used of God to bring reoentence to Israel.

Are we not charged with that same resposibility as we preach Jesus Christ to a rebellious humanity. Paul declared that his message was to show sinners that they should turn to God in repentence and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

My point. All of us are called to be prophets as regards the gospel.

Blaine

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KingJimmy

The role of the prophet has always been and will always be to simply convey the heart and mind of God in a matter. It's to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ, and declare His thoughts at that moment in time. The prophetic messenger is one who says what Jesus would say, if Jesus were standing here and saying it Himself.

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Lysa

It has been my observation over the years, that when you hear someone tell you that they are a prophet, you can be reasonably sure that they are not........brother Frank

Amen, you can be quite sure of that. It’s not he who recommends him/herself but he who God recommends.

Let me ask about this…. what is a prophet to do when someone asks them if they are a prophet? Would we consider them saying, “Yes,” to be recommending themselves?

God bless,
Lisa

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sermonindex

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


We may be making a big Hoopla over "prophets".

Should an Pastor, Teacher or evangelist be afraid to say what they're called to?

It was no big deal to be a prophet in the N.T. Church, but there were plenty then, able to test the calling - even of deacons and elders.

The only "Big Deal" [so to speak, and with 'reverent' respect] should be The LORD GOD and The Lamb!

L
Lysa


Personally, I would say that there are many “prophets” in the land that are unknown to mainstream Christianity who live on the fringes (in the caves, etc.) and DON’T promote themselves and they are there because no one wants to hear the word the Lord gives them. And they probably look like a rag tag group to onlookers!!! But God knows those who are His.

I believe they all will come forth when the Lord calls them to ‘come out of her my people’ bringing those who have ears to hear with them!!

God bless,
Lisa

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sermonindex

Good " snatch," Jesus-is God," feel free to snatch anything you want from my site :)

Lysa writes..........

"Personally, I would say that there are many “prophets” in the land that are unknown to mainstream Christianity who live on the fringes (in the caves, etc.) and DON’T promote themselves and they are there because no one wants to hear the word the Lord gives them. And they probably look like a rag tag group to onlookers!!! But God knows those who are His.

I believe they all will come forth when the Lord calls them to ‘come out of her my people’ bringing those who have ears to hear with them!!"

Lysa, you are right on the money. God has begun the process and we will see where it leads........brother Frank

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sermonindex

Here is another piece by Ravenhill as to the nature of a Prophet, I added a paragraph to the end.

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

“Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.”

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.”

The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.
He has no price tags.
He is totally “otherworldly.”
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith
the Lord.”
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of
impending judgment.
He lives in “splendid isolation.”
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else…!”
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with
epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint
by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of
Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in
the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and
stagnant “churchianity.”
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.”
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,
nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move
men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the
clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision
no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the
wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where
enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!”

The prophets are coming brothers and sisters, we wont like it when the Lord releases them to speak, yet to those who will harken to the voice of the Lord when He speaks will experienc refreshing.This drought, this famine will come to pass and as the waters cascade down through the dry and parched valleys, it will wash away all the structures that it finds and once again the valley will be a place of green pastures, God’s people will know comfort and will feast on the presence of God. Another Azuza street to replace what we Pentecostals built. We have become what we replaced. Every now and again the temple is destroyed, and God’s people find out all over again what is really important, not the temple, God forbid, not the Temple, it is what the temple houses that is the treasure.

S
sermonindex

GOD is faithful. It is HE that sends Apostles [actually these are what we know today as Missionaries] and He amply supplies the rest of the 4 callings, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

We see a prophet in the book of Acts displaying to Paul what he would encounter if he left Ephesus to go to Rome.
There is not that big of a hoopla, as mentioned, over prophets in our New Testaments. No more than there is about the other 4 callings.
It's only this generation that's magnifying them over the other 4 callings, sadly enough - when it's the missionaries that GOD places First on the list. Sadly enough, for the missionaries that need much more attention than most, especially financially. Sad!

S
sermonindex


1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way..... 1 Cor 13

K
KingJimmy

Prophets are a regular part of the body of Christ, and it is no more arrogant to call oneself a prophet than it is a teacher. Anybody who says a true prophet will never talk about himself as a prophet, while well meaning, have little real understanding of Biblical humility, and are overlooking the fact that Biblical apostles, prophets, and other ministers were not so reserved in saying what they in fact were in the Lord. In fact, our beloved apostle Paul talks about his apostleship quite regularly. Many of you if you met him, would have been quite offended at this. Indeed, Philemon is the only letter he wrote that we have where Paul doesn't introduce himself as an apostle. But, even that letter makes much to do about his ministerial relationships.

I think we would do well to rid ourselves of the overly romanticized notions of what prophetic ministry is and is not. These notions, while they may stir your emotions, usually don't fit too well with what the Bible in fact teaches as a whole. In fact, I think some like these overly romantic notions because they like to fashion themselves as prophets, because they have experienced a degree of rejection in their lives and ministries. But some such men fail to see they are not in fact what they think they are. Instead, they are men who being full of themselves, just never learned to play very well with others. And if you can't play well with others, I don't care what circles you run in, you will be put out of most social circles very quickly.

In fact, far from being the regular reject and outcast of the church, somebody who is a true prophet in the body of Christ is often highly regarded. Maybe not always. As with any ministry, there are the sufferings of Christ that men must experience in measure. There will be misunderstanding, rejection, persecution and so forth. But the true prophet, while being vilified by some will find great acceptance amongst the body of Christ. Why? Because they are His sheep and hear His voice.

The A.W. Tozers, Leonard Ravenhills, Art Katzs, Keith Greens, David Wilkersons and so forth, while they all met great resistance in their lives and ministries, were also men, who frankly, were greatly embraced and celebrated too. So much so that all of them made a considerable amount of money during their lives from their ministries. Why? Because these men carried with them the blessings of Christ, and made tangible differences in the lives of others. And as a result, many men thanked them generously and abundantly for their labors.

K
KingJimmy

And it should be said, that God doesn't have this little stash of prophets off in the caves and in the wilderness that He is just waiting to reveal to this nation or this world. Some of you only think such, because well, you haven't learned to play well with others, and you don't really understand the gospel. It's because you are conceited, and don't understand that God isn't interested in having this big procession of prophets who one day rise up and do something terrific. God is not interested in bringing out the prophets hiding in the wilderness so he can one day show you off in some fashion.

God is only interested in revealing His Son.

Some of you don't get that yet. And you won't. Because you aren't real prophets.

But if it makes you feel good to keep playing wilderness prophet on the internet, you can do that.

S
sermonindex

Thank you for posting this. Often the man is not appreciated until he is gone.

I compare this teaching to the venerable " Elijah List" website..[ The premiere nesting place of every false and deceived prophet in America...] , and this...and it is clear that Art has reached the root of truth.

Jesus spoke of Jerusalem, that holy city, that stoned and murdered all the prophets that came her way. Why? Because "qualified" men understood that these lowly seers would unseat them as power brokers, and benefactors over the Church of God....so, they murdered the messenger. [ I am in Jerusalem as I write...]

So it is today...How men love to think of themselves as " THE MINISTRY CLASS "..[ ON WEBSITES TOO..].. and love the honor Prestige, and tithes and offerings for themselves...and have became "Lords over my people.."

Jesus said, " I hate their teaching, and their deeds.."..and they murdered Him. The "Lords" are Nico-[kings] "Laitan" ..over the "lay"..or the common passive...maybe like pew-sitters.

Exposing this spirit , and the lying prophets, usually does not go over so well.

I met Art, and spoke with him a few times.and heard him preach..but oddly, I never knew this side of him on this level..until he was gone.

This is one beautiful, brave reality to me, and thanks for posting it...Tom.

Freedom and Brethren, unto the least of the brethren is written over the church.

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Jimmy, even a root of bitternes will kill you brother...........brother Frank

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KingJimmy

No bitterness here. Just being jealous for the truth, and Biblical purity.

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Hey brothertom, good to hear from you. I heard that you were in Jerusalem. How long?.........brother Frank

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I don't believe Brother Jimmy is being bitter, Brother Frank.

I read this last night and was so very touched by it ...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41312&forum=35

The only "prophets" that we're waiting on, are the two witnesses - Biblically. GOD has already provided as many prophets as He deems necessary to The Body. We may need more missionaries though. :)

The 5 ministries of Ephesians 4 are only to focus on what's best for the Unity and protection of the Body, in Love. No Special lone-rangers, and I believe that's what Bro Jimmy is trying to say, as well as Bro Tom. We're all equals, in other words - I believe. The Old Covenant needed messengers that GOD filled with His Spirit to speak to a people who didn't have His Indwelling Spirit within them, yet. We all have this Spirit of Christ within us now and being His Sheep, we should all know His Voice - The Spirit of Truth.

Unity in love and protection against being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine is what all 5 ministerial gifts are for, but anyone of us can be used in any capacity that He should need someone for. Building up His Body and keeping HIM the Head or hub of the wheel - the Focal point. And it seems we do, until this topic comes up, and maybe a few other topics.

Paul wrote 3 Pastoral Epistles, so actually, if we want to get technical - more is written to Pastors than any of the other 4.
We all are to 'minister' in whatever the moment calls for, as He enables. We just need to do our own work, to bring them in and keep each other safe in Him.

Brother Tom - how are things in Israel? If you have time - could you post about anything you've experienced there so far?

Peace!

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Docs wrote in his opening post:

"Me: The Day of the Lord is ultimately the final eschatological day of judgment but also the impenitent and the nation could experience a chastising day of the Lord in their own contemporary circumstances.

Maybe there's some food for thought for the church in the above.
I believe if not at a point of crisis, that we are near it."


Agree. Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

M
murrcolr

A Prophet has a message recieved directly from God it is for a specific time, place, situation and a group of people.

This what makes him different from a preacher who unfolds the truth from of the Word of God..

Jonah for example was more than a preacher, he could have walked in and said "God is going to judge you if keep living this way" and it would have been true..

But he had a specific message a "Judgement is coming in 40 days" thats what made him a prophet.

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A paragraph from the Ravenhill piece that I posted earlier......

"GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable."

Hear is a piece from Tozer on who and what the prophet is..........


Excerpted from Of God and Men

A prophet is one who knows his times and what God is trying to say to the people of his times.

What God says to His church at any given period depends altogether upon her moral and spiritual condition and upon the spiritual need of the hour. Religious leaders who continue mechanically to expound the Scriptures without regard to the current religious situation are no better than the scribes and lawyers of Jesus' day who faithfully parroted the Law without the remotest notion of what was going on around them spiritually. They fed the same diet to all and seemed wholly unaware that there was such a thing as meat in due season. The prophets never made that mistake nor wasted their efforts in that manner. They invariably spoke to the condition of the people of their times.

Today we need prophetic preachers; not preachers of prophecy merely, but preachers with a gift of prophecy. The word of wisdom is missing. We need the gift of discernment again in our pulpits. It is not ability to predict that we need, but the anointed eye, the power of spiritual penetration and interpretation, the ability to appraise the religious scene as viewed from God's position, and to tell us what is actually going on.

There has probably never been another time in the history of the world when so many people knew so much about religious happenings as they do today. The newspapers are eager to print religious news; the secular news magazines devote several pages of each issue to the doings of the church and the synagogue; a number of press associations gather church news and make it available to the religious journals at a small cost. Even the hiring of professional publicity men to plug one or another preacher or religious movement is no longer uncommon; the mails are stuffed with circulars and "releases," while radio and television join to tell the listening public what religious people are doing throughout the world.

Greater publicity for religion may be well and I have no fault to find with it. Surely religion should be the most newsworthy thing on earth, and there may be some small encouragement in the thought that vast numbers of persons want to read about it. What disturbs me is that amidst all the religious hubbub hardly a voice is raised to tell us what God thinks about the whole thing.

Where is the man who can see through the ticker tape and confetti to discover which way the parade is headed, why it started in the first place and, particularly, who is riding up front in the seat of honor?

Not the fact that the churches are unusually active these days, not what religious people are doing, should engage our attention, but why these things are so. The big question is Why? And no one seems to have an answer for it. Not only is there no answer, but scarcely is there anyone to ask the question. It just never occurs to us that such a question remains to be asked. Christian people continue to gossip religious shoptalk with scarcely as much as a puzzled look. The soundness of current Christianity is assumed by the religious masses as was the soundness of Judaism when Christ appeared. People know they are seeing certain activity, but just what it means they do not know, nor have they the faintest idea of where God is or what relation He has toward the whole thing.

What is needed desperately today is prophetic insight. Scholars can interpret the past; it takes prophets to interpret the present. Learning will enable a man to pass judgment on our yesterdays, but it requires a gift of clear seeing to pass sentence on our own day. One hundred years from now historians will know what was taking place religiously in this year of our Lord; but that will be too late for us. We should know right now.

If Christianity is to receive a rejuvenation it must be by other means than any now being used. If the church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher. The proper, ruler-of-the-synagogue type will never do. Neither will the priestly type of man who carries out his duties, takes his pay and asks no questions, nor the smooth-talking pastoral type who knows how to make the Christian religion acceptable to everyone. All these have been tried and found wanting.

Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many) he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom. Such a man is likely to be lean, rugged, blunt-spoken and a little bit angry with the world. He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness to die for the glory of the one and the salvation of the other. But he will fear nothing that breathes with mortal breath.

We need to have the gifts of the Spirit restored again to the church, and it is my belief that the one gift we need most now is the gift of prophecy

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Brother Frank, none of us disagree with the role and voice of prophets - but these men that you are quoting are saying things that aren't Biblical.

" A paragraph from the Ravenhill piece that I posted earlier......

"GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH."

The WORD says that 'GOD has given' to the Church all 5 ministerial gifts.

Whether they are accepted in the Body.... Whether they are seen as trouble makers and silenced and then move on - to me that's the point.
I do believe they come and go where not accepted - but that they are here and not necessarily "in hiding until the day of their showing" - as if they're hiding in the desert - but they 'may' have to leave the places where they're not accepted.

I feel very sadly about all of this - but I also have seen men come through that had a prophetic voice of the ills of the church that were either ignored, rebuked or just pushed aside as just one more mouth.

It's just very necessary also, that we stay within the New Testament with our descriptions of 'callings and gifts'.

Again, it is GOD Who has given the Church all of the gifts and callings and nowhere in His Word - since the Resurrection and Pentecost does He say that He is keeping just one of the 5 ministerial gifts hidden away somewhere.

The prophets are just seldom received within groups - but they do pass through, now and then and some are amoung us regularly but don't require to be recognized.
Only The WORD of GOD should be recognized - not the man.


HIS Peace.

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words, words words, and opinions, nothing more.

its too late anyway, Judgement is coming. so continue with the ministry of stubble and straw, much to your peril.

he who has ears to hear........

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It seems there are two types of prophets. There are those who are gifted as part if the five fold as Paul laid out in Eph.4 anf 1 Cor.14. But then there are those unique individuals that God raises up to speak to a generation for their time. A. W. Tozer coukd be said to be such a prophet.

We read in Rev.11 about the two witnesses or prophets who will prophesy in the end times. They will give their lives for Christ.

I might add that any evangelist who proclaims the gospel message stands in danger if being rejected just as the prophet. As this world rushes toward darkness there is a constant rejection of truth even among the church. That is why it is refreshing to hear that the gypsies, Amish, Dialets, Montagnards, and other despised people groups are turning toward the gospel.

Blaine

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only God the Holy Ghost could have guided your fingers on the keyboard, to write as such.

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There is a way to 'judge' a true prophet ... THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH - Biblically / Sound doctrine FIRST.

Do they sympathize with the "do gooders" of this world?

Do they defend HIS WORD above their own?

Do they back false-prophets?

Do they bring the attention to HIM and HIM alone or to themselves???

There's more - lots more - but it surely isn't just telling us what even the unsaved people know - that this world is heading for an implosion.
I could give you the url for a conservative News Forum where even the unsaved are saying everything some so-called prophets are saying, about what this world is headed for and in which nation and how it will happen.

"The Spirit of Truth" - read about 'Him' - HE 'is' The Word of GOD - also called "The Spirit of Christ Jesus", Who said to Pilate that "for this purpose was I born - to testify of Truth." The Spirit of Truth is also called "the Spirit of Christ". So a true prophet will testify to the 'Truth' in GOD's WORD before anything else and will be right on the money doctrinally - else he's operating from another spirit.
If someone's doctrine and 'discernment' is off - then they are a self-proclaimed prophet or just a 'bleeding-heart' liberal of sorts. Plain and simple. If their discernment is off on other people, other so-called 'prophets' and ministries - they cannot be a prophet of GOD. If they promote anything that is Not Written - then we need to write them off as a charlatan.


We're to only give as much attention to a topic as Jesus' New Testament gives the topic.

What silences true prophets is the Unbelievable amount of false prophets and prophecies out there right now. Never before in the History of this world, has there been more false prophets and counterfeit "prophesies" and they ride on threads like these all over the internet and they are being followed by the majority - of prophet/prophecy chasers.

The people Do Not want to Hear The Truth ... but the prophets that GOD has given are never quiet - they can't be - the fire of HIS Words cannot be quenched but HE does tell them when it's time to move on - not go off and hide somewhere.

This topic is superceding His Word and neglecting the equal statis of the other 4 calling's and neglecting the fact that if GOD needs something said - He can say it through a child that was saved yesterday and doesn't need puffed-up men to do it.
Other forums have whole armies of "prophets" and a true prophet is not welcome on those forums - yet these forums have made a name for themselves and those who try to say "That's a false prophesy" BEFORE the 'prophesied' event was to take place - are ostracised, even after the date passes and nothing happened and the man is not asked for forgiveness for being given True Discernment From GOD before the predicted date of an occurance!

We're in the Last Days - so I don't expect anything but MORE false prophets and prophecies and MOST will fall away from the Truth ... it's more than just "judgment" that's coming - Jesus said that the days that we're in will be as never before seen on this planet and even those of understanding will fall to try/purge them Daniel 11 and they'll fall by a number of different ways - not just sin.

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My friend, to God be the glory. Blessings in Jesus to you.

Blaine

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Though none of this was Docs intent ....

How much attention would a thread on "Missionaries" receive?

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Though none of this was Docs intent ....

How much attention would a thread on "Missionaries" receive?

oh,i'm so weary of words, but alright; missionaries, you ever read "The Life of Brainerd"?...first published in the 1740's, hasnt been out of print since, the post-homous journals of such a dear servant of Messiah, this one book has served so many choice vessels of Jesus...fishers of souls, as a companion template to the Word of God, how a worm of Christ was used so wonderfully, despite a body wracked by TB, that just reading it, makes a soul sing.

have you read it? if so, we can "talk".

here's the "cliff notes" on David Brainerd:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brainerd

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Despite your tone, I'll answer you. I am not asking for History lessons ... I'm asking about our Missionaries who are out in the field Now, around this globe and have to come back to the States to travel church to church to raise funds for orphanages, hospitals, schools, churches, etc and are suffering under extreme conditions of deprivation as we Comfortably Speak from our comfortable homes.
Where Right Now, there are Mission Conferences going on, not just at my Church, but across the globe to even try to get people to sign a little card that is a pledge to, at the least, just PRAY for them regularly and another little card to make a faith pledge. They are the MOST hurting bunch of GOD's Servants that there is, on the face of this planet - humbly and quietly, doing a work in places most of us wouldn't put one foot in and in the most sorrowful need of help that the 'church', in general, gives the least thought to. Present Tense.

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Sounds like the persecuted church. Very few Christians in this country think of them.

Blaine

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In most cases Blaine, the two are one and the same.

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Despite your tone, I'll answer you. I am not asking for History lessons

what? there was no tone, but trying to bless you with something REALLY GOOD...and doing it with agape LOVE. "The Life of Brainerd", is such a wonderful account, that set the MODEL for missionaries now, i would have relished a robust, in depth discussion on Brainerd, but what i recieve instead is "I am not asking for History lessons"?

okay....God is good, because He does reveal the spirit of individuals, and i must be frank with you, i have to mark and avoid you. Ask forgiveness, and you have it 70 times 7 in an instant, but i will not bandy words with you.

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Though I have never read David Brainard I am aware that he was one of God's choice servants to reach a despised people group of his day. Prior to Brainatd no one thought the Native Americans were worth reaching with the gospel. It was said Brainard would go out and pray on the snowy ground. His prayers woukd be so fervent that the snow woukd be melted around him. Or at least the stories go.

I think we would agree that those servants God does use; prophet, preacher, evangelist, or missionary do suffer for their work in the kingdom. As such we should honor those that God uses to advance his kingdom purposes.

Blaine

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Blaine, CBD had a box that we bought yrs back that contains a video, book, etc on David Brainard and it is heart wrenching,
as is this other thread that 'Docs' posted -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41287&forum=48&0

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Hey Jig, not really sure where your coming from. I believe there are Prophets today, as Ravenhiil and Tozer would agree. Wjen they are taking about being hidden, it means that they art not bring listened too because the people dwell in comfort and ease, but there will come a day when the comfort and ease will be removed and then the prophet will be heard. That's my take on it anyway.......brother Frank

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Hi Brother Frank. You can call me Ann. "Jesus-is-GOD" is just what keeps me from losing hope.

I don't think you and I differ that much. I just didn't think that they're hiding in caves, etc, but do agree with most of what you have said here. But whether they are heard in the future - time will tell - but I think it's more than likely that they'll be the first to be beheaded - not only by the powers-that-be of this world's one world government but by the apostate church as well ... just like the two witnesses will be killed ... but three days later, :)


LORD Bless you & yours.

T
twayneb

I would like to throw a question into the ring. I don't think I have settled yet on what I think the answer is.

Some background thoughts and then the question.

In the Old Testament the prophets were God's mouthpiece to the nation of Israel. The people did not hear directly from God but rather relied on God speaking to the prophets and the prophets to the people.

Under the New Covenant with the coming of the Holy Spirit we now have God speaking one on one to ALL of His people. Jesus fulfilled all of the things foretold of Him by the prophets and then He sent the Holy Spirit to fulfill the purpose that we see Paul mention in 1 Cor. 2.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Heb 1:1-3)

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1Co 2:7-16)

I find that prophets in the New Testament were often made aware of future events by God as Agabus foretold Paul's imprisonment if he went to Jerusalem. I find prophets were instrumental in ordination of Paul and so most likely others as well, meaning they were in a position of spiritual leadership in the body. I find they are necessarily instrumental in the maturing and equipping of the body in Eph. 4.

So having put those things out there, do you think the role of prophet is significantly different under the New Covenant from what it was under the old and what exactly do you think the role of a NT prophet is?

I know it would be easy to simply quote the OT references that speak to what prophets do, but to do that simply begs the question since I am concerned with what the different ministry might be under the NT. Perhaps there is reference in the NT that I am unaware of that I have missed in my studying.

Any opinions?

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Twayne, brother, you asked

Any opinions?
of this question:

So having put those things out there, do you think the role of prophet is significantly different under the New Covenant from what it was under the old and what exactly do you think the role of a NT prophet is?

no, because God is the Same, yesterday, today, tommorrow and forever, hence His servants, all of them, hear That Same Voice.

I know it would be easy to simply quote the OT references that speak to what prophets do, but to do that simply begs the question since I am concerned with what the different ministry might be under the NT. Perhaps there is reference in the NT that I am unaware of that I have missed in my studying.

it seems to me, at the Leading of God the Holy Spirit, the Ruach HaKodesh, that New Covenant, children of Abraham, followers of Messiah, have a tendency to take post hole diggers, sink posts, and put barbed wire between what is refered to as the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament", when in reality, one should peer thru the mist, and see God's Great Plan, which is the Kingdom of Heaven is near you, us, me, and everyone from Genesis 1 on into Revelations. There is no division, and any attempted division is man seeing thru that glass darkly. When Jesus went into the synagogues and streets to heal and teach and pray for and about the Good News of the Kingdom, That is the Gospel, His Texts were from what we call the "Old Testament", same with Paul, though i'm certain early Gospel Accounts were being lovingly writ thru the Guidance of God the Holy Ghost. Me? i look at the Bible as a Whole, as One, Echad...One Whole Powerful Word...no fences.

but thats just how i'm led...imagine...having what Moses had, that Relationship with Yahweh, face to Face, like a man speaks to a friend? What can be more sought after than That?...well, one more Thing, that beautiful simple prayer, the 12 disciplies prayed: "Increase our Faith!"

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Brother Travis, when I need to know what is real and what isn't - I find "the Real McCoy" and study it or them.

I would start here and study this man -
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41275&forum=34&3

He rarely 'prepared' his messages, but they normally ran over an hour.
Study the real McCoy and see what you think after that.
SI has plenty of his audios.

The LORD Bless you & Keep you.
Your Sis

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Hey Ann, you wrote.........

"Brother Frank, none of us disagree with the role and voice of prophets - but these men that you are quoting are saying things that aren't Biblical."

Quite bold to challenge Ravenhill and Tozer :) Can I suggest that there is essentially no difference between what Katz, Tozer and Ravenhill teach about prophets............brother Frank


ps hiding in caves is obviously metaphorical. If prophets of old arose from the dead, they would not get invitations to our churches and conferences, or at least not get invited back. If a prophet today would stand in the average church that would even allow the gift to be in operation and tell them that what they were practising was an abomination, how long do you think they would last in such a church sister? In this way they are smiliar to prophets of old, they speak to the landscape of the local church, and the condition nationaly. The gift of prohecy or exhortation can also be carried out but we know that their are degrees and its the Holy Spirit that decides.

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

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Hey Frank. The part that I find unbiblical, though Ravenhill and Tozer are two on my list of favorite men - as most know - is the part that we don't 'have' prophets Now and they'll "come" at a later date. That's not what Paul taught in 1 Corth 12 and Eph 4.

That was the only place that I felt that they were not speaking from His Word. I've posted that same article about prophets by Ravenhill on this forum in the past and quite a bit from Tozer.

If I feel that they are merely wrong on one small part, based upon what Paul has written to us about what GOD Himself has supplied the Church with - I find no 'big deal' with one small disagreement.

You asked me a question that I've posed here before. I'll change the question to - How long would Art Katz be here, if he posted anonymously?


I do feel you've misread me.


Blessings!


{eta} What we Do find Jesus saying, is that there will be an increase in false-prophets and we certainly have seen that within the last few decades. Some websites are literally loaded with them. Incredible!

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I just got to thinking about Travis' question.

If anyone dares to compare themselves to Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Elijah, Elisha, or any of the others who's books are in our Bibles - then what they say could be added to the Canon of Scripture - and if they're wrong - they should be stoned.

Just a thought of how far we should compare anyone besides the two witnesses to our Old Testament prophets.

There are similarities and differences between them, but to even bring them up in a conversation, as to what folks may believe they themselves are now, is far from the "Humility" that Katz wrote about in that article posted on an earlier page.

Biblical truth is being tampered with, I'm afraid. To go beyond what is written about 'prophets' in our New Testaments is rather risky and there isn't much mentioned about them, compared to the other ministries, as was mentioned before. 'Apostles' have much more mention.
Apostle defined is, "sent/messenger" - [sent, 2Joh 13:16 -
messenger, Phi 2:25 messengers, 2Cor 8:23] And with the NAR and such, we certainly have a great influx of those as well - the type that Jesus warned about.
I have to agree with what our brother brought up about the Nicolaitans. We may be bordering on that, though we fault the RCC of it.

How far we've strayed from the pure Word of GOD is scarey sometimes. Much of our own ideas or wishful-thinking and not much quoting of Scripture will lead to divisions of all sorts, Paul warned. Do we have an ample amount of true prophets in the Church now - I believe GOD supplies the amount that He desires. Do they have the freedom of speech that we'd prefer - Well, that depends on who you ask. Can they foretell events? Most definitely - but the Spirit of Truth in them will not contradict Scripture but will uphold it and raise it above all other words.

What do you think, Brother?

T
twayneb

Ann:

You have the point of my question exactly.

Of all of the five fold ministry gifting listed in Ephesians 4 we know the very least about the pastor and then of the remaining we know the least about the prophet. I speak of what we know that is spelled out in scripture. We know much of how the prophet operated under the old covenant, but the new covenant has ushered in the presence of the Holy Spirit to speak to believers. (No fence here, just a recognition that the new covenant ushered in the Holy Spirit who speaks to us personally.)

We have a lot of people who call themselves prophets and apostles. (I don't have a problem if a person is simply and humbly acknowledging what he or she is. For example, I have no problem acknowledging that I am called to teach and that I am a teacher in the body. But it is not a title I wear or a badge that I show off. It is simply what I am called and therefore what I do.) These people are building great followings and speaking "words" without end, serving as overseers of vast networks of churches, etc.. I believe many of them are walking in deception and deceiving many.

But this does not negate the fact that the true are operating as well. I have known and do know several people who I believe may operate as prophets. I have also seen people who I believed to be prophets who succumbed to temptations common to all men, including me, and wound up off in spiritual pride, deception, etc. and the prophetic gift in them was replaced to a certain degree by their own emotion and human wisdom. I do not call into question the new covenant ministry of the prophet, as I know it to be very real and necessary for the body today.

But I see that a great number of people view the prophet through the eyes of his function in the OT and I am not sure that the function of the prophet is the same as it was in the OT. For example, in the OT the prophet often called the nation to repentance and pronounced and prophesied the judgment of God on the sins of the nation. But the only specific mention in the NT of the purpose of the prophet is to work to equip the body of believers for the work of the ministry and to bring them into a place of maturity. Sure God spoke to them about the future as well, but He has done the same to me a time or two, not being a prophet (He will show you things to come) and it has caused me to walk with confidence in what was coming.

So it is a question that I have not settled my answer on, and possibly I never will. But I am interested in what others think about this question.


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sermonindex

Hi Ann,

Thanks for the clarification. I personally do not believe that they are saying what you believe them to be saying, that there is no gift of prophecy in operation. I just believe that there are varying degrees of this gift and it is the Holy Spirit that gives. Let me give you an example of how you can shut down certain men with the gift of prophecy while others are allowed to continue. I went to a certain church , big church, for 8 years. The gifts were in operation. If you had a message in tongues, you simply stood up where you were and gave it and then the interpretation was waited upon. If you had a word of knowledge or a word of prophecy you would come down front and were given the microphone. There came a time where a lot of " hard," words were being given by those who had te gify of prophecy. The words talked about purity in the church, and repentence and that the state of the church was not good, they were really hard hitting and were happening every week. It was decided by church leadership and specifically from the pastor( who had hand picked the leadership) that if you had any kind of word then first you had to come down and tell one of the leaders what it was and they would decide if you could say it or not. This created a whole new enviroment. Truly the freedom was gone. Imagine walking all the way down front in front of thousands and then not being allowed to speak. Bottom line, from that point on only " nice,' things were said. About a year later it was discovered that the pastor was having an affair with a secratary, the leadership had been informed by someone that this was going on, but had chosen to ignore it.

So sister, there are many ways a person with the gift of prophecy can be shut down. Its not because they do not want to give the message that burns in their bones, and in fact will find ways of giving that message, but if the churches refuse to hear ar allow such messages to be given, then they are making a choice. If they only want to hear " good things," then this will come back to haunt them and they will never be able to say to God that He did not warn them.

"You asked me a question that I've posed here before. I'll change the question to - How long would Art Katz be here, if he posted anonymously?"

Sister, he would be kicked of along with Ravenhill and Tozer, and they would not be invited to any conferences. Jesus speaks to what will happen to prophets, not in the past, but in the future..........

Mat 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets;
Mat 23:32 and you fill up the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;


T
twayneb

Frank: In reading your response to Ann I had to wonder, "Were you at the same fellowship I was at some time ago?" Obiously this is not a rare phenomonon.:-)

It happened in a fellowship I attended in the same way. I don't have a problem with running a word through leadership. Sometimes it is wise. But it should never be used as a way to control.

S
sermonindex

Great post Travis. Amen to it all! and Thank you.
His Love rejoices at His Truth.
Last night the words came to my mind - Love is Truth! I was blessed by that. Thank you again!


Brother Frank, well :), I tried at the bottom of page 3 to answer the same question and put what was in Capitals from Ravenhill in quotation marks to show the only part I didn't agree with - so wondered why ya asked again on this previous page. :) Hope all's well now.

I just wanted to make clear what I see ... "the gift of prophecy", that is in Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 is not the 'calling' or 'ministry' of a prophet. It's just one of the 9 manifestations of the Spirit, like tongues and interpretation.

We were taught the three classifications as first - "The Manifestation Gifts" 1Cor12 - "The Motivational Gifts" Rom 12 - and the "Ministerial Gifts" Eph 4.
Also, that there is no limit of how many HE would use a person in, at any given time ... as the need presents.
We can almost see that Paul, for one, was used in all.

Of the verses from Rom 12 that you posted in your previous post - I like the "motivational gift" of Mercy best.
I told our Asst Pastor that all I wanted was the gift of serving, because I miss working at that Nursing Home so badly.


Anyhow, just to clarify - we were taught the gifts over 30 yrs ago from the Greek by Old retired missionaries ... all in Heaven now - from the Old Time AoG. Pentecostal folks but very acedemic. All the Bible classes were taught from the Greek with the grammar and all. So I am just thanking GOD for the mercy He gave me, to allow me to sit under such amazing men because I needed it. I was one who took off with the gifts and needed one foot firmly cemented to the ground. I'm laughing at me, Brother ... but like that posted article said by Art, the book of ACTS hit me like a ton of bricks when first saved ... I 'thought' that was the normal Christian life.
Twill be again.

Phew! Now we can move on to living it all, eh? Striving for the unity these callings of Eph 4 speak of. Amen!

GOD Bless you and Brother Travis.

S
sermonindex

Hey Travis

""Were you at the same fellowship I was at some time ago?" Obiously this is not a rare phenomonon.:-)"

:) Well, I do live in Kansas :) No brother, what I think you will find is that ever since the beginning of the " Tornonto blessing," and the " Word of faith," and the health and wealth or properity gospel which flooded pentecostal churches ( who were most activly involved in the gifts, so many churches including the Baptists and so on never were so this would be a moot point to them) then harder words were simply just not accepted. They only wanted to hear prophets who would tell them how good things were gonna be, how better things were gonna get and how there was a bright future. Now compare that to the message that the Lord is at the door, return to your first love, judgment is coming and it will begin in the house of the Lord and so on, and you can see why that message was all but shut down. I believe that when you run it through leadership, it would inevitably be run through the prism of whoever the leaders are. In my example God was speaking to leadership after they had ignored words in private, not only ignored it but attacked these people through thinly veiled sermons......... brother Frank

S
sermonindex

I'm dropping hints for Christmas gifts here. Hoha :)

Robert E. Tourville, the one Prof I told you about, wrote the only commentary on the Book of Acts, from a pentecostal view. Last time I searched, it's out of print - but if anyone wants to send me a gift - :) - it would be worth the world to me to hold a copy.
Hobart Grazier was the other Prof. It's said that he may have been instrumental at encouraging David Wilkerson to launch into his ministry ... according to a biography on Grazier. GOD knows but I'm grateful for the three of them and Keith Green.

Anyhow, if anyone could find Tourville's commentary on Acts - please let me know somehow. I can't get to my emails through this unsecured connection that gives me an opening now and then, but as they say, "All I want for Christmas is ....." :o)

LOVE you ALL.

S
sermonindex

Anyone who speaks truth is going to be despised by the world. We know prophets will be shut down and executed for their hard words. What about faithful pastors who are run out of their churches for preaching the truth from the word? I an speaking of so called evangelical churches who run Christ centered men off who preach the truth of God's word.

Often we think of persecution coming from the government or the cults like Islam. Could it be that persecution against the remnant in America will come from those that worship the 501c 3 tax exemption.

Remember who it was who out Jrsus to feather. It was the religious estaishment of his day.

Blaine

D
docs

I hope I'm in the right place in this thread. I think one of the forum rules is that we're not supposed to go into politics. I can respect that even though my thoughts about what would be the role of a prophet came from watching so many of the presidential candidiates say they know the Amercian economy can be restored and America can again regain her prestigous place in the world. It makes somewhat desperate feelings go off on my insides because they seem to shadow boxing and striving at vanity if a time of national chastisement has arrived. And the church seems aligned with one political party and that dulls the church's prophetic voice in my opinion becuse a true prophet may very well right out of the gate renounce the esteemed political movements of the day. But we all know this. I thought I would just put a few thoughts in and maybe get three or four comments. But you folks are obviously alive and well and considering at least some of these things yourself. PTL for that!

I went to a Christian conference the latter part of September and a few people were there who passed out their cards. One had "Prophetic and Healing Ministry" on the front with info on how to contact him and I wondered what the word "prophetic" on his card meant. Did it mean he held the office of prophet or did it mean he could move in the gifts of the spirit like personal prophecy etc? During the conference a lady shared with me some things she saw regarding me as we were praying and she was every bit right on. But she had a card with Reverend so and so on it and I wondered if she was crossing any lines in that regard because she had been ordained as a Reverend. Her gift was good enough as it was. Maybe I'm from the old school. I'm certainly not anti woman. I wish I wasn't so concerned about these types of things. She had a sure word though and it was edifying being around her. There's no doubt about that. Whatever. I'm just sharing from recent experiences and am trying to work on the things the Lord is requiring of me right now. But we need those true prophets right now for sure.

Blessings to you all for your thoughts.

S
sermonindex


Brother Docs, you could have jumped in at any time to get this thread back on topic and truthfully, I was waiting for you to do just that. You sure do display the fruit of the Spirit - patience :). Are you still Moderating somewhere?

Anyhow, I pray that whatever that woman said to you truly helped ... regardless of my view of woman "pastors". I don't agree with the use of that term "Revenend" for any human being neither, because the old Webster's defines that as "one to be reverenced". Not Kosher.

Your topic - I can't help but to say that it's - to me at least - a question of one's eschatological views, now. I can't seperate "politics" from eschatology and haven't been able to for at least 31 yrs, after I read the first book on the nwo and accidently ran across a Pastor on the radio that was an expert on it back then.
I believe that GOD has taken His Hand off of this world and we've returned to the state that Babel was in, before He scattered them. Judgment to me right now is His Hand removed and all the power in the hands of the rich men of this earth and their use of their sciences. I've studied them and their psychological warfare, technology and plans toward this nwo for all of this time and it all lines up with His Word, to a tee .... even to the implications of the dual prophetic interpretation of verses like Obadiah 1:4.
One day His wrath will come, but until then when He comes to "destroy those who are destroying the earth", these "rich men of the earth" have endless resources to bring about their nwo and that's what we're seeing - Globally -- not just here in the U.S..
All that we see world wide is toward that end. Whether it be civil unrest or civil wars - [orchestrated with provocators and all], or financial collapes, etc. All of what is happening around the globe is and has been planned to go as it has and is for actually thousands of yrs and intentionally-gradually. The Boil the Frog method. Their 'christ' had to come from a certain bloodline and a perfect timing as well as ours did. No one counterfeits a $3 bill.
Aside from all of the research into these things and testing them against His Word, have been the parts I don't care to discuss in mixed crowds. If you believe in visions and such, I'd be glad to discuss that with you as well, but not here.
I'm at a disadvantage, depending on any unsecured wireless connection that will hook me in, so I can't do consistent emailing - but if you're on another forum - I wouldn't mind coming on anonymously to go into the other side of this discussion. We don't have PMs here neither, but this week I'll have access to my Dad's computer, as he's away and could use my email account there. But in my heart, I doubt that you need my experiences to educate you on much anyway. And besides, I'm female.

Stay well - Be well. In Christ. GOD rest you, Brother Docs.

S
sermonindex

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

HI Ann, you wrote...........

"I just wanted to make clear what I see ... "the gift of prophecy", that is in Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 is not the 'calling' or 'ministry' of a prophet. It's just one of the 9 manifestations of the Spirit, like tongues and interpretation."

Well Ann, I appreciate your opinion that its not a ministry, I guess we will agree to disagree.........brother Frank

S
sermonindex

Context Brother. You've left off much in Paul's teaching... please notice the conjuctions - making this one sentence in which he first states that there are diversities in "gifts" and then, there are different administrations [ministries in your version], *And, diversities of operations and then - "BUT" the "manifestation is given to all" .... and on he goes with the "manifestation" gifts - which are not "life callings" like we see in Ephesians 4 but He uses these 9 manifestations "severely as He wills" ... which means you can be used in 1, 3, all 9, at any time HE chooses - but they are not "resident" as Callings are. A prophet is called to Be a Prophet but any Saint can be used in the gift of prophecy....

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 "And" there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1Co 12:6 "And" there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1Co 12:7 "But" the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

S
sermonindex

As I stated sister, I appreciate your opinion on these Scriptures, one among many, and we can agree to disagree..........brother Frank

S
sermonindex


You got it Brother!

Heb 13:20,21

S
sermonindex

Questions.


Should 'All' covet/desire to prophesy?


1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying....
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [tongues with interpretation = prophecy - vs 5]

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


............

Is Paul telling them in Corinth that they all should "covet or desire to be called as an Eph 4:11 prophet"?


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers?

Z
ZekeO

Great thread,

Been really blessed by what has been shared. May our hearts be tender in these matters.

M
murrcolr

Quote:- One day His wrath will come, but until then when He comes to "destroy those who are destroying the earth", these "rich men of the earth" have endless resources to bring about their nwo and that's what we're seeing - Globally -- not just here in the U.S..

All that we see world wide is toward that end. Whether it be civil unrest or civil wars - [orchestrated with provocators and all], or financial collapes, etc. All of what is happening around the globe is and has been planned to go as it has and is for actually thousands of yrs and intentionally-gradually. The Boil the Frog method. Their 'christ' had to come from a certain bloodline and a perfect timing as well as ours did. No one counterfeits a $3 bill.

-------------------

Before that day God will raise up and send us a prophet because God wants a people that will live challenge and confront the powers of darkness in this generation, they will confront the very anti christ himself and be victorious...

S
sermonindex


Brother Colin, could you define what you mean by "victorious"?
I only ask because, from what we read in Daniel and the Revelation - [like about the two witnesses, etc.] - most lose their lives.
That doesn't mean that they aren't "victorious" though :) - but just wanted to understand your view better.

Blessing to you, yours, and where you live, Brother!

M
murrcolr

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God

victory over the beast
his image
over his mark
over the number of his name

They will not bow and worship but they will challenge and confront the powers of darkness in this generation...

These people are a Holy people and such they live a life victorious over sin in there life....We can't reach this this generation when the church (today) lives like the world.....

They will take the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to this generation....

Edit:- Added about People

People God is going to raise up the people to do the work of the ministry. It's not going to be a few men with an anointing it's going to be the people who are anointed.

A Victourious People

Note:- Don't confused about what I am saying and the manifest Sons of God message. It the "manifest sons of God message" is a counterfit of the real thing...

A
a-servant

I do hope you're right. But what does "stand on the sea of glass" mean ? Sounds a bit like a non-earthly place.

Also interesting Rev continues with Rev 15:3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

there pops up another question. There is always a heated opinion about the role of Moses in any present or future tense. Yet these people sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb. We might have misunderstood Moses importance from the start.


S
sermonindex


Amen and Thank you, Brother Colin!

D
docs

I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but I'm rehabbing a knee I recently had arthoscopic surgery on and doing a lot of things. Please forgive my tardiness. I'm not moderating anymore but I'm still on a forum where I'm sort of helping a little from time to time and only a few are interested in the role of prophets. It seems because of all the modern fluff of people presenting themselves as prophets when nthey're not that many are hardly interested in the subject.

Regarding your comments, I don;t think that God has necessarily taken His hand off of the world. It seems such a confluence of events and especially those going on now that ot almost seems as if the world is careening along with God having turned loose of the reins. I tend more to think that it's going exactly the way He wants it to and He is guiding it although it doesn't look that way many times. The President we have, the Arab spring, the economic changes going on and moral restraint being thrown off are still under direct control. That's not saying men can't freely choose but like Brother Wilkerson used to say, "God has everything under control." Even Israel, seemingly so unaware of its eventual prophetic destiny is beong shephereded and watched over and what will be will be because it will be according to what is written. is written. My, ain't I fancy!

Anyway, thanks for your comments and your committment to the Lord.

"Doc"

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