Quiverfall

Not long ago I came across a story of a woman who was living in a Quiverfall group. I never heard of this until this interview. It deals with families having as many kids as God allows them to have. There is a verse from the Psalms that deals with this. THe groups seem to use it as their cornerstone and it seems to be mostly in the midwest.

I follow the lady on twitter because this whole thing is just so intriguing to me. She recently posted a link on twitter that caught my eye because parts of it are things I have seen in Christendom and I have wondered how really accurate is it? Is it biblical? It is more cultural yet it is being taught as bibical.

Here is the link. Read at your convenience and tell me what your thoughts are.

http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/08/03/quiverfull-daughters-the-making-of-a-helpmeet/

I think you mean Quiverfull.

I follow that site, too.

It talks a lot about spiritual abuse in Christianity.

Their aim is to preach the truth and let the light dispel the darkness while ministering wholeness to those who have been abused spiritually. I am impressed that they are not operating from a root of bitterness.

Very needed for our day as almost all Christians have been touched by spiritual abuse which is basically misrepresenting the truth in order to take advantage of someone in one way or another for your own personal gain. It deals mostly with women.

It is good to read this so you don't get the wrong idea about where they are coming from.

http://nolongerquivering.com/what-is-quiverfull/

In Christ,
Sarah

Yes, I meant quiverfull. I Realized I spelled it wrong but I can't go back and edit it-woops.

Quiverfull seems to be something that advocates familes having lots of kids because this is what God has ordained. I think that is skewed.

One of the reasons this thing caught my interest is because of the class in 'women's studies' I am in. The catch is to sort through it all to find out what is wrong and what is right and why and why some women are being abused through it and what the church should learn as a result. Don't you think?

"Quiverfull seems to be something that advocates familes having lots of kids because this is what God has ordained"

I am one that would be considered to have raised my family in the "Quiverfull movement", but the very term movement gets my dander up. ANY basis for the raising of my children came from a Biblical conviction. Any "movement" in history, or any denomination across church history no doubt started because of beliefs. Yes - many are filled with abuse and a twisting of God's truth. After all, doesn't satan come as an angel of light? I get very angry at this "anti-quiverfull" movement that has now arisen because they are missing all of the Biblical TRUTHS and convictions that have come out of a heartfelt desire of MANY FAMILIES to raise children "counter-culturally". Admittedly, some have gone too far. But you don't throw away the Bible because of it. I don't like to put myself out here like this on this forum because I do not have the emotional energy for the debate that most often comes. But this topic really rankles me, and I feel a need to correct misconceptions regarding it.

Regarding your quote - the idea is NOT "having large families". There is a subtle difference that many people who are on the outside and just observing often miss - the idea is that we give God control over every area of our lives. And that when God says "Be fruitful and multiply" (yes, Old Testament), we give Him control in that area as well. In my case, my husband and I said, "Lord we are willing to have as many children as You would have for us"....

mama27

your last sentence, 'Lord we are willing to have as many children as You would have for us....' How practical is that? Do you have kids until both of you agree that is enough? OR until you hear God say ENOUGH? Or until you encounter some female complications? When does it become enough?

Over here on the shelf it seems like this is taken out of context-the be fruitful and multiply context.

I understand how 'movement' rankles you- always a buzz word.

I registered for the site just to respond to this thread. I am a mother of 9 children. I never heard of the quiverfull "movement" until today. In fact, I have yet to meet NAYONE who agrees with me on this. Yet, God spoke into my Spirit (NOT my husband's although he supported me) many years ago many of the things that I read are advocated by the "movement."
Specifically, I had three children and began to take birth control to prevent more pregnancies. I heard the LORD say to me: "Are there any blessings from me that you would want to stop?" I answered of course not. Then I felt the LORD say to me: "Then why do you want to stop having children since they are a blessing from Me?" (Psalm 127 is just one example. This may be Old Testament, but I would think the spirit of the New Testament supports it.)

I became immediately convicted and stopped taking birth control. Thanks to God my husband supported my decision. Although I did take natural methods not to become pregnant, I understood that it was in the LORD's hands and in His sovereignty whether I would have any more children. In other words, I surrendered MY will to HIS will. Is that not what Christ calls us to in EVERY area of out lives?

Someone asked this is practical. Following Christ in any form is NOT practical. We trust God to provide for us in every other thing. Why should this be any different? God has always provided.

To note, I don't agree with the website's description of raising girls only to be a wife and serve a husband. This is highly unscriptural. Girls, just like boys, should be raise
d to serve and follow Christ ONLY. If this is done properly, they will become a good wife or husband IF that is what God calls them to.

I specifically de-emphasize to my children the cultural obsession with marriage and relationships. The only relationship that matters is the one with Christ. We teach them, as did the apostle Paul, that it is better to remain unmarried so as to be able to serve the LORD fully. That should be their focus UNLESS Christ calls them to marriage. The example of Brother Gordon is perfect here, if you have read his testimony.

I also do not advocate the type of corporal punishment described.

My daughters attend college and prepare themselves as the LORD will have. I could add, as to the matter of being "practical" that I have attended law school to and successfully graduated, by the grace of God, even with my 9 children because I felt that is what the LORD called me to do. He is not always "practical" as we see things. But he is always right.

Since when does God live in the realm of "practical"?? His ways are infinitely higher and deeper than ours. (Isa 55:8,9)

God could have chosen for us to have one child, and that would have been His perfect plan. In my case we prayed and waited through 8 years of marriage before our first child was born. And I had 3 miscarriages after our last child was born. We had given the matter to the Lord. CLEARLY our family size, AND EACH INDIVIDUAL LIFE (He brought us 7) was totally in His control. I could not control the starting of having children, and I could not keep them coming when my time was finished.

This is sort of like the headcovering issue that is being and has been discussed....God convicts and impresses each individual. Maybe to those on the outside looking in to this "movement", God hasn't given that conviction. Just PLEASE don't lump everyone together with all the stories you read of things "gone wrong"....

This is a Quote by Doug Phillips
"The Bible calls debt a curse and children a blessing; but in our culture, we apply for a curse and reject blessings. Something is wrong with this picture."

QUOTE:
"God convicts and impresses each individual."

I have not followed the site posted but am familiar with the mindset of the quiverfull philosophy - it did not begin with a formal organization. The idea is that one should have as many children as physically possible, believing that conception is in God's control because after all, the OT patriarchs had large families.

This idea is seriously flawed. Is it God's will for singles to get pregnant? NO! Never has and never will be. I have had many single clients tell me it must God's will they are pregnant because they are! Hey! have you never heard of the biological reasons how a body conceives???!!! Ok, this is for singles. Now what about marrieds?

Any married couple will be faced with this issue, given all the methods available to limit your family size. Some opt for however many physically possible, others know their limitations and will work with it. In our case, before we married, we talked about family size and did pray about it. Even in it, God did rule and surprise us with two surprise conceptions and three planned pregnancies. Would you know that in time I did forget which ones were planned and which ones were a surprise? :-)

When #5 was in the oven I seriously considered whether this should be our last one since this was the number we had striven for. Then one day in church service as I was thumbing through Genesis my eyes fell on 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." I saw something I never noticed before: the ability to conceive frequently was a result of the fall! (I will greatly multiply thy conception.) This is given in the context of where Adam was told there would be weeds to be dealt with. Soooo, this means that to see how many children you can have is not God's will, either, because it says that the ability to conceive more frequently is part of the curse placed on a woman.

I did more checking in the WORD to find the highest number of children birthed by any woman. I did find Hannah birthed 6 children. Leah seemed to have birthed 7 children that we have record of. I am not aware of any other woman birthing more then these after the flood.

Now, how many children should a couple have? These numbers teach us something, IMHO.

Husband and wife are called by God to enjoy each other and if a child results, one should resort to the mercy and grace of God to enable them to accept this child as a gift from Him. But to deliberately work to see how many you can have - this seems to me a point of pride and others looking on have observed this as well. But then that is between them and God - you do not want to go a child and tell them you think they were conceived as a result of pride!

My take on the quiverfull philosophy...

ginnyrose

WOW, I am impressed and astounded at the last few comments after my previous one. I am taking it all in as I read them. I have my own ideas about the whole thing but listening to you ladies on this and even ginnyrose makes for what I consider some powerful reading!!!

Thank you for your input on this!!!!

Hello,

This is a very interesting topic.
I have always pondered the question of having children and family size as I am in a courting relationship and the topic has come up on more than one occasion.I have come to believe that God does call people to marriage specifically. That is part of my own testimony. I did not want to be married for the longest time because I had a wrong idea of what it meant to be "devoted" to the Lord. However God really changed all that and has helped me grow through a godly relationship (you can read about it here http://evangelandevelyn.posterous.com/ )

The thing that I am really struggling with is precisely on the topic of having children and birth control. This has been quite helpful. Thank you all for your postings.

There are so many men and women of God who wee mightily used throughout history who were single, married with children or married without children.

God uses every single possible situation for His glory.

Watchman Nee got married but did not have any kids
William and Catherine Booth were married and had children
Marie Monsen stayed single her whole life and of course the Apostle Paul.

*I had always wondered in Priscilla and Aquilla had children and how they ministered as a couple?

This is another topic I have been pondering...
In what ways do couples minister together?

I know some who work together side my side others in which the male is the foremost minister but the wife supports in a crucial way and still others where the wife is the minister and the husband is not.

There are other forms of birth control aside from taking a pill. Abstinence at key times of the month is partially effective, as are other methods. The reason I say this is to ask a couple of questions. I ask them not to argue, but simply to put the questions out there and see if anyone has considered them.

If the command is to be fruitful and multiply and if a couple abstains for a week or two during a particular time of the month, have they sinned in not allowing God to make the decision about their child?

Does this mean that a couple is bound by scripture to come together during these key times?

Is it possible that God placed within each man and woman the ability to reproduce and decreed, "now go and be fruitful", leaving it up to the natural processes that He built into the man and woman to bring about offspring?

I am NOT implying by the last question that each person is not unique nor that God does not cause each man to be a unique spiritual being. I am asking if it is possible given the previous comment and questions that it is up to us to be fruitful and that we can simply listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit as to when we should start and stop bearing children?

I have never heard of the quiverfull movement. I have just had friends who felt they ought to have as many children as would naturally occur if they did nothing to inhibit the process.

QUOTE:
"There are other forms of birth control aside from taking a pill"

I will share my take on this issue as discretely as possible.

The pill functions as an abortifactant. It does not prevent conception (edited) but prevents the implantation of the fertilized ovum into the uterine wall, or at least it used to. There are other methods of contraception that work this way as well.

I am not convinced that using the pill or its cousins is not without risks, even though the birth control industry says it is safe. I do not believe it is healthy to fool around with nature like this - the women know what I am talking about.

I would recommend for any who are seriously interested in this topic to check out "Natural family planning". You can google this term and find the info you need on the web.

'Nuff said....

ginnyrose

When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas.

There are those who think their spirituality increases as their family increases and yet this is not how personal spirituality increases. If they think that, then the implication is that those who don't have x number of children or none at all are then, not blessed by the Lord. This is very Old Testament thinking. To the Christian, outward circmstances or "props" are no measure of spirituality.

Is God practical? Of course He is. Look at the world around you. Look at your own body. He gave you natural means to practice family planning.

There are many dogmas that have been created, from wearing certain clothing to having x number of children.

Be led by the Holy Spirit in conjuction with your spouse and stay free in Jesus.

In Christ,
Sarah

"When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas.

There are those who think their spirituality increases as their family increases and yet this is not how personal spirituality increases. If they think that, then the implication is that those who don't have x number of children or none at all are then, not blessed by the Lord. This is very Old Testament thinking. To the Christian, outward circmstances or "props" are no measure of spirituality.

Is God practical? Of course He is. Look at the world around you. Look at your own body. He gave you natural means to practice family planning.

There are many dogmas that have been created, from wearing certain clothing to having x number of children. "

WOW- set free from dogmas. THat can be a blessing and a curse yet your words here strike at the heart of the issue, for me.
Natural family planning? I would agree, everything to not sleeping next to each other, as in the older days, which really doesn't happen anymore. Also, knowing that window of when a woman is able to get pregnant during that period of the month. My month knows this, hence we do not have kids. I actually learned about this through her. Never was taught this anywhere.

Last paragraph leads me to shout AMEN and that doesn't happen very often for me. It reminds of of independent baptist churches who tend to frown on ladies who wear pants and don't wear long hair as if they are less christians. I know of some churchs here like this.

This question then remains for me is this. with all of this thinking and what I call man made dogmas what is it to be christian in the end anyway? Now we see why the Pharisee became as they were and why many in the secular world see religion as messed up.

Most families today have some prodigals within their ranks. But I do know of a few that don't. These families I really admire and wonder what they did different from other parents. Perhaps the family I admire the most has six boys, no girls. All are faithful serving the LORD, active in their church and church conference. Four of them are married with very nice families. I do know the mother is a very spiritual lady as is her husband.

If you are going to have a very large family there is one point the husband has to consider: how would his wife cope should something happen to him? This is not a hypothetical question, I am serious. Husbands and wives do die in the prime of life, leaving the spouse to cope. And some do not cope well at all. Seems to me not very many consider this question seriously.

QUOTE:
"**As a side note: several of the huge families we know are heavily dependent on welfare, food stamps and medicare (whatever the insurance is)... and I do very MUCH have an issue with that. Those things were intended to help people while they are going thru hard times, not to support families that keep having more and more children. If it's God's will for you to have 15 kids then you better also trust Him to provide for you! Your husband better work his tail off (at 3 jobs if necessary) providing for you and the kids. If he works like that perhaps your child bearing would slow down... lol... **

AMEN! But, I also LOL!

"I think scripture is quite clear on matters like this where there is no clear command one way or the other... the second half of Romans 14:5 "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

The parents with 12 kids, fully convinced that that is what the Lord wants for them, need not judge the family with 1 child. And the family who can not comprehend having a dozen children and stopped at 1 need not judge the bigger family.

The number of children does not make a parent more spiritual or less spiritual.

Each couple need to seek the Lord in matters like this.

**As a side note: several of the huge families we know are heavily dependent on welfare, food stamps and medicare (whatever the insurance is)... and I do very MUCH have an issue with that. Those things were intended to help people while they are going thru hard times, not to support families that keep having more and more children. If it's God's will for you to have 15 kids then you better also trust Him to provide for you! Your husband better work his tail off (at 3 jobs if necessary) providing for you and the kids. If he works like that perhaps your child bearing would slow down... lol... **

Krispy"

One thing I would have to ask is when a couple has , say 10 kids or more, and mom is still able to have kids are those couple waiting upon 'God' to tell them to stop? What is their sign? This is what puzzles me even after reading articles about those who have come out of this quiverfull thing.

Your last paragraph tackles the practicalness of this all. It is my thinking that if all of this ordained of God would the circumstances not cause the families to be self sufficient somehow? Instead, as you said KK they are reliant on food stamps and so forth which doesn't seem to be bring glory to God. Yet, I know some christians will say children are a blessing from God despite circumstances-yet is that really reality? Is my thinking twisted in this? Is it Godly minded to think like that?

One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief? I have never heard of this "mentality" before and I think the average person, christian-nonchristian would be wowed at those who have lots of kids but then looked down upon if those same families had to reach out for food stamps and welfare because they cannot afford the household though God inspired them to have many kids. It doesn't seem practical that this is glorifying God. Help my unbelief in this area because I just shake my head on it.

QUOTE:
"My parents used to tell me I was like a "bull in a China shop"... and right they were... and still are."

Now this sounds BAD! But I have been thinking about your posts in recent months, Krispy. The LORD really is changing you, has he not? It is so obvious - at least to those of us who have known you for a long time...God bless! and I hope you are not breaking too much china...:-)

QUOTE:
"One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief? I have never heard of this "mentality" before and I think the average person, christian-nonchristian would be wowed at those who have lots of kids but then looked down upon if those same families had to reach out for food stamps and welfare because they cannot afford the household though God inspired them to have many kids. It doesn't seem practical that this is glorifying God. Help my unbelief in this area because I just shake my head on it."

I shake my head, too. So maybe I am in unbelief?

I would guess most couple know in their heart what size family they believe they can handle. I also know some stop at one or two for selfish reasons, but they have to live with that decision. It would be foolish to insist they have more because of the selfishness that resides there.

How to decide how many? that is something a couple needs to work on, no one can tell you what that number should be.

Having said all this I do find it unsettling that many Christians will choose to limit their family's size to one or two children. These children will grow up being spoiled, believing the world revolves around them. Having more a child will grow up learning to give and take through the squabbles they have with each other. I am told that childhood squabbles is an important part of learning to get along with people. Still mom is called upon the mediate these squabbles - LORD have mercy! Really. No wonder moms get gray!

QUOTE:
"When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas."

I am not sure you mean what you said here. Your post is a confirmation of this - your position of no dogma is in its essence a dogma.

To be without dogma one will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Scripture teaches us there are absolutes and we need to embrace them.

This is something to think about.

Have a good day.

I want to bump this threat up one more time along with an email you can send your response to.

For the ladies, I have questionaire that begain this thread. Would you be willing to answer the questionaire and send it to :

sanctuaryintheheavens@yahoo.com

I have received 2 responses so far. one from this forum and one from a lady who is in leadership with her husband at a church I attend-that was through personal email.

I actually sent 3 emails to 3 independent baptist churches and I haven't seen any acknowlegement of that email. Do you think that means anything?

"For the ladies, I have questionaire that begain this thread. Would you be willing to answer the questionaire and send it to"

I looked at the questionnaire and I don't fit the questions. Perhaps that is the case with others here. I will try to look at it later tonite as I am gone all day. Perhaps you have noticed if you have been on this forum for any length of time, that many of us have a hard time finding a church.....

mama27

This literall hit me like a bolt of lightning- the questionaire I had is actually on a post entitled 'questionaire for the ladies' and for some reason my mindset was that it was on this post. This just hit me and caused my eyes to get BIGGER.

I am sorry for that. Have to look for that other thread. I am sorry for the confusion.

Dear DEADn,

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate." Psalms 127:3-5

Briefly, neither our Lord Jesus, nor His apostles gave us a clear, definite commandment "to have as many children as God decides to give the willing couple", (the most basic definition of the so-called "Quiverfull" belief.) Therefore, latitude must be extended in the Church with regard to this subject.

That being said, there are good reasons for believers to come to such a conclusion however. Let's explore the Scriptures some...

Please look back to Psalms 127:3 - What does it mean that children are God's heritage; His reward to His people? It means they are to be considered by God's people to be "blessings." Why is this?

Psalms 127:4 - What does it mean that children are like arrows in a warrior's quiver? It means that well-trained children are lethal weapons in the Father's and Mother's hands for God. The implication is: The more arrows a warrior has, the more enemies he can shoot; ergo: the more children, the better for the Kingdom of God.

Psalms 127:5 - What does it mean that a man's children will speak with the enemy? It means that they will grow up to fight against the enemies of God's Kingdom.

In the New Testament, the apostle Paul gives us a few inspired hints as well:

Christian women (in general) are called to be wives and bearers of children. (I Timothy 2:15)
The older Christian widow is expected to have raised children for her husband and God. (I Timothy 5:10.)
The younger Christian widows are instructed to remarry and bear even more children. (I Timothy 5:14.)

But what if God sends "too many" (from the couple's perspective?") What if there are problems? Well, to gain some insight, we could look to one ancient couple who experienced great calamities: The Bible tells us what they said:

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die."

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:9-10

But you asked some specific questions yourself. You asked:
"One thing I would have to ask is when a couple has , say 10 kids or more, and mom is still able to have kids are those couple waiting upon 'God' to tell them to stop? What is their sign? This is what puzzles me even after reading articles about those who have come out of this quiverfull thing."

I am not absolutely sure. However, one answer could be that God will Himself "close the womb." The Scriptures do seem to imply that our Heavenly Father is the one in charge of either sending children, or withholding them:

"And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he OPENED her womb: but Rachel was barren." Genesis 29:31

"And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath WITHHELD from thee the fruit of the womb?" Genesis 30:2

"And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and OPENED her womb. " Genesis 30:22

You write:
"...It is my thinking that if all of this ordained of God would the circumstances not cause the families to be self sufficient somehow? Instead, as you said KK they are reliant on food stamps and so forth which doesn't seem to be bring glory to God. Yet, I know some christians will say children are a blessing from God despite circumstances-yet is that really reality? Is my thinking twisted in this? Is it Godly minded to think like that?"

It is generally understood by Quiverfull families that the same God who sent the blessing of the child, will likewise send the necessary provision. Our Heavenly Father "owns the cattle on a thousand hills", and our Lord Jesus commanded us to "have faith", and not to "worry", but to even trust our Heavenly Father for "our daily bread."

I would think the true questions here are these: Are Christians willing to be HARD workers, and are they willing to have only what God deems absolutely necessary, (shelter, food and clothing?) I guess we, (especially in the West), are used to a certain standard of living, but there may be certain aspects of our standard of living that our Heavenly Father may not think are essential. Are we willing to forgo some of these things to have more "blessings" from God, should He still desire to send them to us?

You ask:
"One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief?"

I don't know exactly what the percentage is now. However, I can tell you this for certain: there will be more next year than there are now. Logic itself tells us that the future belongs to those who have children. The more children born to this generation of believers; the more that can be born in the next.

There is so much more that could be said, or aspects that could be explored, and specific situations that could likewise be addressed, but I would have to write half of a book to do so, at least!

Be well dear DEADn, and God bless everyone who reads,
Doug

I would beg you to reconsider your interest in NLQ (No Longer Quiverfull). I think with careful examination you will find that bitterness is very much the motive for the website.

The premise of the site is to highlight and aid others in escaping from "abuse" within the quiverfull movement. NOTE: I, like others, don't care for the label movement.

But here's the reality. Is there abuse within the families who follow the quiverfull belief? Of course, just as there is within the Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Methodist, Buddhist, Muslim, Amish, Mennonite, or any other faith. Or within atheist families for that matter. The point is; whether genuinely Christian or not, every faith or denomination is filled with people. And because of the scourge of sin, there will be within those ranks of people; abusers.

So, is abuse more prevalent within the Quiverfull faith? Or even the Christian Patriarchal groups? Do families who follow the male leadership and female submission belief abuse more or less? And can we even know the answer to that?

I believe I can and here's why. As an old salt police officer I have dealt directly or indirectly with literally thousand of domestic violence cases. I have seen the result with my own eyes; everything from mild slaps or pushes to full on beatings.

As a cop, I am sent to extensive training on identifying and prosecuting domestic violence. I see the stats and I hear the stories. And I talk to the DV Advocates.

Couple that with over 30 years active in the church. I have 22 years in credentialed ministry, with 14 years of pastoral ministry under my belt. Through those experiences I have dealt with scores of additional familial abuse situations.

What has all that taught me? Simply this; I have never, ever seen an example of domestic violence within the Quiverfull faith and I live in an area where there is a huge percentage of such folks. I have likewise never seen anything even close within the traditional marriage (husband leadership, wife submission) households. Not one!

I would estimate that well over 90 percent of domestic violence cases are within "mutually submissive" or "equal" households. Even then I think I'm being generous.

And consider this: if abuse were to take place within those groups they would be the most offended and outspoken in their opposition. They would be appalled!

Now let me quote a segment from the article to which you provided a link:

"Michael and Debi Pearl of “No Greater Joy Ministries” are some of the most controversial child training advocates in the world today. Several deaths have occurred in homes following the Pearls advice. [NOTE: I am NOT saying in any way that the Pearls are responsible for the deaths, just that the parents were known to follow their methods.]"

Please take a minute and ponder that. If that statement doesn't get your dander up, I can't imagine why.

If deaths occurred it wasn't because the parents were in any way following the Pearls writings, teachings, or beliefs. In fact, the murderers would, by necessity, have gone in complete opposition to anything that the Pearls advocate or teach. To even offer a veiled accusation, as this writer has done, is atrocious. And the silly disclaimer: NOTE: “I am NOT saying in any way that the Pearls are responsible for the deaths, just that the parents were known to follow their methods.]" Really? Then why put such a horrible and misleading statement within the article?

I can understand that kind of behavior from the unsaved but when someone claiming to be Christian participates in such actions, it’s inconceivable!

And the people weren’t “known to follow their methods.” The Pearls methods would never contribute to such abuse, quite the contrary.

For an example, I took my vehicle in for repairs awhile back. The differential seal needed replaced. After receiving the rig back, the differential went out about a week later. I had it towed to the repair shop which did the work. The owner was livid. The mechanic who made the repair did the work wrong. Now the owner is a tremendous mechanic and SAE certified. And his employee was trained by him.

So, who’s at fault was the defect? The owner who taught how to do the work properly or the trainee who performed the work completely contrary to the way he was trained?

I apologize as I realize that this became long winded. In summery, please reconsider the NLQ site. You will find that most of the articles on the marriage relationship and child rearing are based on secular ideals while the majority of what the Pears teach is Biblically sound. Do I agree with everything the Pearls teach? No, of course not. Do I agree with the Quiverfull ideals? I’ll answer by stating that I have 2 children and very happily so.

But the difference between what I read on NLQ and what I read from the Pearls is polar opposites. The Pearls and others within the Quiverfull faith display such genuineness of spirit and a passion for God’s Word and truth. NLQ and others seems to operate from a deep root of bitterness and their teachings focus around their will rather than the will of God.

"mama27

This literall hit me like a bolt of lightning- the questionaire I had is actually on a post entitled 'questionaire for the ladies' and for some reason my mindset was that it was on this post. This just hit me and caused my eyes to get BIGGER.

I am sorry for that. Have to look for that other thread. I am sorry for the confusion."

DeadN - I just saw this since Quiverfull was back on the front page.....I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying.....Mama27

I also want to thank Baldmtnman and Dietolive for your posts - this is my experience with the "Quiverfull movement" - I'm sorry - I still hate the term....We are just people who have tried to follow the Lord to the best we are able and have given Him our very lives in the raising of our children - it is supposed to be that we raise them FOR HIM.....

Baldmtnman

I may or may not do anything with the Quiverfull movement. Actually, if I write anything about it it would be on the concept of it but that requires some reading on my part.

From what I understand of the professor, he wants us to explain our thoughts. So, if we bring something up he wants to know why. "Why" is that so important? type of concept.

i.e. if I start off using the garden of Eden and the argument of whether Eve is equal with Adam or whether she is less than Adam my argument needs to be back up with a why is that so important?

If I touch on the Quiverfull concept and say whether it is bad or good he wants to know why and why should anybody care about it.

I think the worst part of this whole paper is finding the right stuff to read to construct the right arguments. Some of the links posted have been helpful in this effort. It is just a matter of funneling it through my mind and putting it on paper and having it make sense. This things is due 11/23.

baldmtnman

I would agree that NLQ is rooted in much bitterness. In fact the site is really an athiest site as well. I don't necessarily read that site alot but I have come across some blogs of those who have been raised in the 'scene'. Many of them have become feminists and athiest. Yet the one thing I don't read about too much is the boys. It seems that it is the girls who have issues. I liken it to teenagers who think they know it all and can't get their way so they runaway from home because they can't get their way. On the other hand, a person always has to give those people and open ear to really understand who are they angry with? Is it just rigid rules in certain families they couldn't cope with so they got out and pointed the finger back at their family unjustly? It usually happens when someone feels they have been burned especially within the church.

In the end what my focus is going to be on, at least intially with my paper, is feminism and fundamentalists theology. I think both sides have flaws personally. One side wants to reinterpret things to their own lusts and the other side sometimes wants to use literalness for a subtle power in the Name of God yet in the end who is more truthful in their stance? Or is any side more truthful.

I am off to spent a major of this day doing research on this. I need inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide me through this

take care
John

John,

I will pray that the Lord gives you direction and wisdom in your endeavor.

I have some writing on my blog that may or may not be helpful to you. I have written on egalitarianism to some extent. Of course that's a dangerous subject because once you venture into Scriptural truth that flies in the face of the feminism within the modern church; you set yourself up as a target. Personal attacks are quick to follow. The fact is; they are forced into personal attacks because of the lack of Biblical basis for their beliefs.

I would remind you that nowhere in Scriptural theology is the woman ever considered inferior. That is an egalitarian tactic and a smoke screen. Just because someone is submissive in position and/or role has no bearing on their worth. Women are every bit as important as the man and her role is at least as important.

Its like trying to determine who is more important in battle: the General guiding the battle or the soldier doing the fighting. They fill different roles and positional authority but neither is more or less important to the success of the mission.

It's never been about worth. But because of the rebellion inherent in the modern feminization of the church the use of the old "God never meant for me to be a doormat" argument is commonplace. Of course they are correct. God didn't intend anything of the sort, but then again, neither does any of the advocates of the traditional and Biblical familial roles. And any man who is determined to undermine the value of the woman or belittle her in any way has abandoned the Scriptural position and the traditional view.

As for the reason for the seemingly higher exodus of girls from the Quiverfull faith I don't know the answer and I would be interested to hear what you find on the subject. I will say that there are detractors from every group, religion, cult, social group, belief, or ideology. I would venture to say that the number of people, boy or girl, who cast off what they were taught within the Quiverfull faith is likely much lower than others. I have known a few but very few.

God bless,
Jim
Livingelect.com

http://www.christianpost.com/news/michelle-duggar-suffers-miscarriage-in-second-trimester-64462/

First, I am not sure why I go to this site for some news but I do it. I find some of the stories on this site really lame but this story perked my interest.

What is the end result of this whole thing? Are these folks really balanced in their God view of having kids? Does a person come up with 'excuses' as to why this situation happened with them? Read the article to see what what I am referring to.

I don't know anything about their show. I only know of them from being introduced to this quiverful things which I had hear from and NPR interview so I see this whole thing from an outsider point of view to an extent.
Maybe I struggle with my own bias in this situation as well but my point for posting is how do people in this situation come up with explanations to explain why 'God' allowed this to happen vs if reality agrees or actually says something else to explain this.

DOes this make sense?

side note- sometimes I wonder if I am going through a growing pain inside, maybe a little crisis of conscience with God in answering certain questions.

Dear DEADn,

The Duggars are definitely NOT balanced in their view of God and having children. They apparently are willing to receive at His hand without hindrance whatever the Lord pleases.

Did you read my previous post in this Thread, and if so, what are your specific thoughts on the Scriptures presented and the few points made?

I think the ultimate answer to your questions are to be found not in opinions or anecdotes. These can certainly be helpful for sure, but our search for the Truth must always finally come to the Word of God as the ultimate authority in all matters of life and death.

So, what saith the relevant Scriptures? How do you read them?

Be well,
Doug

I have read your previous post and honestly I am not really sure how to respond to it. My thoughts are really all over the place in regards to it and it might make for a crazy read in the end.

"It is generally understood by Quiverfull families that the same God who sent the blessing of the child, will likewise send the necessary provision. Our Heavenly Father "owns the cattle on a thousand hills", and our Lord Jesus commanded us to "have faith", and not to "worry", but to even trust our Heavenly Father for "our daily bread." "

Does this show itself to be really true or wishful thinking? I wonder how many families are on government help? Is that provision from God? It could to a point but then one has to ask-if something be of God it would first build faith in the individual and then it would show as a sign to others. Government help doesn't show as a sign to others that this is God providing. That is my opinion.

"Psalms 127:4 - What does it mean that children are like arrows in a warrior's quiver? It means that well-trained children are lethal weapons in the Father's and Mother's hands for God. The implication is: The more arrows a warrior has, the more enemies he can shoot; ergo: the more children, the better for the Kingdom of God.
Psalms 127:5 - What does it mean that a man's children will speak with the enemy? It means that they will grow up to fight against the enemies of God's Kingdom."

What exactly does this mean in this day? Are we to take every word here as fundamental in this? How is it supposed to be applied if we are to take this as it is written?
Let's be practical otherwise we end up in wishful thinking which serves only to disillusion hearts and minds.

Dear Brother,

You said:
"Does this show itself to be really true or wishful thinking?"

What about this?
"I would think the true questions here are these: Are Christians willing to be HARD workers, and are they willing to have only what God deems absolutely necessary, (shelter, food and clothing?) I guess we, (especially in the West), are used to a certain standard of living, but there may be certain aspects of our standard of living that our Heavenly Father may not think are essential. Are we willing to forgo some of these things to have more "blessings" from God, should He still desire to send them to us?"

You wrote:
"Let's be practical otherwise we end up in wishful thinking which serves only to disillusion hearts and minds."

You ask fair questions, and there are fair answers. However, before I try to convey them, may I humbly ask you two questions first?

1. What was your motivation in coming to Christ?

2. What is your supreme goal in this life in the meantime?

What do you think dear Brother?

"I would think the true questions here are these: Are Christians willing to be HARD workers, and are they willing to have only what God deems absolutely necessary, (shelter, food and clothing?) I guess we, (especially in the West), are used to a certain standard of living, but there may be certain aspects of our standard of living that our Heavenly Father may not think are essential. Are we willing to forgo some of these things to have more "blessings" from God, should He still desire to send them to us?"

I can tell you that I can do without some things but as you said, in the west we are used to a standard of living. I can adapt to seemingly any situation. Parents spoil kids too much with things these days. I think the less a kid has the more the kid will learns for life. Your last sentence could have some practicality to it but at the same time, does it mean if a womens womb is still fertile she should continue having kids until it closes or something tragic happens? Such as this Duggars thing?

"1. What was your motivation in coming to Christ? "

It was to repent of sin and yet at the time I was still igonorant of it a bit. I can tell you that in the days that followed when I opened up a bible and began reading I got more convicted inside and began studying it even more even to the point of memorizing verses and walking them out in my life. Then I began to understand the condition of man but I had to fight religiousity at the same time- if that makes sense?

2. What is your supreme goal in this life in the meantime?

I really don't know if I have a supreme goal in this life. Maybe it can be summed up like this- Parts of it are to be a friend to those who need a friend, to give hope to those who need it, to love my wife as she needs it and to work as my work ethic pushes me to because it is who I am inside. Any of that make sense? These are the things that I find that come out in me in various ways all the time and it is a part of what life seems to be all about in the end. God is woven within all of these things.

Hi Brother,
Quote:
"Your last sentence could have some practicality to it but at the same time, does it mean if a womens womb is still fertile she should continue having kids until it closes or something tragic happens?"

I couldn't rightly call God taking a child in a miscarriage tragic, in the sense of being a "mistake", if the father and mother were seeking God's will in the matter, and like Job of old, were trusting Him in the giving of that life, as well as the taking of it away.

Good answers to the questions, (and there are no exact answers to such questions anyway.) As a foundation, I just wanted us to think about what this is all about.

I think this way dear Brother.

1. What was your motivation in coming to Christ?

I believed God's supernatural promise to me, that by faith in Christ Jesus and His shed blood for me, I would be able to escape the wrath to come. By God's grace I still believe.

2. What is your supreme goal in this life in the meantime?

My supreme goal in life is to live always and only for Him who died for me. By God's grace, I still seek to obey His word in everything.

Therefore,

Is it not "practical" for one to trust God's promise for the salvation of our souls?

Is it not "practical" to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, or in a word, to love Him with our whole body?

I want to encourage you dear Brother, that if it is practical in both regards, then it is also practical in ALL regards.

There is no part of our lives where Christ does not claim sovereignty or does not seek to be glorfied thereby. And there is nothing that we can obediently do for His glory, that will in anywise extinguish or deplete the grace of His great and precious promises He has given to us:

"Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matthew 6:31-33

It would seem foolish to Obey God First, and then work for your necessities, but this is the Power and Wisdom of God in the midst of this world.

Believe His promises dear Brother, for all things are possible to him who believes, even trusting God with the grace of life.

Be well in Him Who Died that You might LIVE.
Doug

I go back to my original post about the Duggars. Are they a family that any general christian family should follow? Maybe I shouldn't ask such a question but yet apparently they have this spotlight because of their 'doctrine' about having as many kids as 'God' wants them to and they base that soley on Mrs Duggars ability to have kids. Just gets under my skin and maybe it shouldn't. Maybe I should leave this whole thing alone yet I realize down the road it will come up and I will have to either listen to a story about it or be confronted with it. I think this happens to most christians yet it is the kind of thing that irritates me to know end. Do I have a root of bitterness growing as a result? Maybe I need to have my heart searched in this matter..........

I don't have a problem with y'all discussing this (I have some questions too!), but I think this quote is still very relevant.

Here's a quote from Michelle Duggar -

"There's others out there that may have opinions and that's ok! They can have their ideas and their opinions... but I'm the mom! I look in the face of my daughter Jill, who was born after my twins of which I had preeclampsia with them. And I think she wouldn't be here if I had decided, "I'm not going to allow another gift in my life!" There's no way that I can please everyone, but there's one that I do want to please and that's my Lord! And if my relationship and my heart is right between He and I, then all the other stuff will work out..."

Then one day in church service as I was thumbing through Genesis my eyes fell on 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." I saw something I never noticed before: the ability to conceive frequently was a result of the fall! (I will greatly multiply thy conception.) This is given in the context of where Adam was told there would be weeds to be dealt with. Soooo, this means that to see how many children you can have is not God's will, either, because it says that the ability to conceive more frequently is part of the curse placed on a woman.

Hi Ginnyrose,

Your reasoning is interesting; I haven't quite heard it put that way. But in order to reason like that, you would have to also conclude that since it wasn't God's original plan for man to sweat for his bread, then it's not God's will for a man to have job which makes him sweat. ??? Please understand I'm not making fun of your position; I'd just like to understand it better.

But to deliberately work to see how many you can have - this seems to me a point of pride and others looking on have observed this as well. But then that is between them and God - you do not want to go a child and tell them you think they were conceived as a result of pride!

If that is their philosophy, fine. I understand it as the idea to let what will happen, to happen. In other words, not saying, "we're aiming for 20!" but "whatever He gives is what we'll take." Example is Josh Duggar who said that he and his wife would be happy if they got 2 children or if they got 20; either way, they wanted whatever God wanted to give them.

Of course that "point of pride" is wrong but it's really not always the case-- what about when pride is not in the picture??

Looking forward to hearing from you,
savedtoserve

The phrase 'Whatever GOD gives gives' in reference to having kids. It implies to me a kind of blind faith. The phrases wants to tell me that God is out there but he isn't going to tell you anything about how many kids you are going to have. You just keep having kids and if your womb won't produce more then that means God says Stop. If a woman's body has complications it could mean God saying STOP unless the body recovers to have more.

Seems to say God is out there but leaving couple on their own to want to believe God is telling them this. Shouldn't they be hearing God telling them this vs assuming God is based on circumstances?

This is A reason why society mocks christians because the thought process seems as if God is not really speaking, we think he is as a result of ' If it is meant to be...' I hear this from my mom and from others I cross paths with. 'If it was meant to be it will happen'. Really, do you know how many bad things happen that probably were not meant to be? Do you see my point?

There are many things in life that God doesn't tell us about...that's why it's called walking by faith. You call it "blind faith" but I see it as trusting God to lead the way--Since when do we need or get all the answers?? I've heard it said that so many Christians would be happy to surrender their life to die for Christ, yet they wouldn't surrender their womb/the number of children they'll have! How pathetic is that?! But understand, I don't have any desire to force this stuff in anyone; I recognize it as a personal conviction that is up to every individual. I understand if you don't agree, but why say its wrong when you dont support yourself with Scripture? Of course, however, it has been and is abused by families going on welfare and that's only one example... I know the extremes need to be dealt with, but let's not make them everything.

You said

do you know how many bad things happen that were NOT meant to be?

savedtoserve

I quote Deadn: "The phrase 'Whatever GOD gives gives' in reference to having kids. It implies to me a kind of blind faith." (Sorry I have not figured out how to use the 'quote' feature).

If a Christian were saying this for anything other than children (money, material possessions, wisdom, etc.) there would be no argument on this forum over the wrongness of this statement or over this being "blind faith." There is just this westernized notion that there is something wrong with having many children, and we apply our culture to this area of life and call it being "wise." Let me remind you that worldly wisdom is foolishness to God, and it is the God whom we serve that said that children are a blessing from the Lord and blessed is he whose quiver is full of them. Apparently, we don't believe what God says or we do not want His blessings.

As in other areas of life, if we are lead by the Lord and the Spirit, this is NOT blind faith. When those of us say we will take however many children God chooses to give us, we are following the Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that we follow and ask for guidance in other decisions, and trust that we will be guided by the Spirit to know when God is saying that a certain number of children is enough. How is trusting the Spirit to guide you in this, different from trusting the Spirit to guide you in other areas? It is the same thing. I do not call it "blind faith." It is called being led by the Spirit.

I am not trying to be judgmental. I do not judge those who have few children. Not everyone is called to have a large family. This is our individual walk. I also do not want my CHRISTIAN brothers and sisters to judge me either just because they have not been called to have many children.

Walk your own life as the Spirit guides you and do not try to second guess how the Spirit is guiding another family. If you are truly concerned for them and that they are making wrong decisions, pray for them and prove your love by your praying. God, who knows the heart of men and women, will deal with that family, if they are wrong, or with you, if you are wrong.

Romanchog

Some good points you raise about money, material possessions, wisdom, etc. We apply so much of our cultural into what we think is biblical truth and chastize those who don't abide by these truths.

In reference to my words, having kids because the body is able to have kids- is that really the same as saying God wills that the body keeps having kids? To me it implies no relationship with God but that circumstances dictate a couple should have more kids because the body is able to do such a thing. blind faith comes in thinking this is God's way of doing it-really? Is that how God works when it comes to reproduction? That is just a funky way to live out ones faith in God, in my opinion. A bit scary.