CONFINED TO THE KITCHEN? The Lord Doesn’t Put Women in This Box

It breaks my heart to see the same worn-out ideas about the “woman’s role” parroted over and over again in source after source. During our recent travels a brother gave me an article, “The Godly Woman’s Role & Influence” by Marlin Kreider (Reaching Out, #69, 2011, Living Waters Mennonite Church, pp.5-6). I would like to deal with several aspects of this article in hopes of helping us discern Christ’s will concerning the full-functioning of the brothers and sisters in his body on earth.

The author expresses a desire to find “God’s way of doing things,” but important information is omitted from the Biblical story that does not fit the box that women are put in.

For example, the first point regarding the “role for women” is “submission.” The article gives the impression that submission is specifically a female issue. This distorts Paul’s thought. Paul mentions the submission of wives only after setting forth the beauty of mutual submission of all believers one to another. Submission is first of all a manifestation of the Spirit among those in the ekklesia. In other words, it is just as important for males to be submissive as it is for females. To lift submission out of its body context and primarily connect it to females is to open the door for dangerous distortion and abuse.

Further, the article states that “suitable helper” translates into meaning that a woman “fill a subordinate role under the direction and protection of a godly father or husband.” This position creates some serious problems, for the Hebrew word “ezer” is most often used of the Lord, who is said to be “the helper of Israel.” Doesn’t this show once and for all that “suitable helper” cannot mean a “subordinate role” for the woman? If anything, it would highlight the strength of Eve.

Building on these mistaken assumptions, the article then suggests that

“God never planned for a woman to fill a man’s role. She is out of her God-ordained place when she assumes leadership in the home, the workforce, the church, or the nation. She was not created to be an executive, wear a hard hat, and the like.”

This statement reveals a central issue: an either/or mentality sets up a false alternative – either the woman stays at home and stifles Christ within her, or she expresses Christ outside the home and forsakes her domestic responsibilities. This approach flies in the face of the Biblical narrative.

What about Deborah and Huldah? They were both prophetesses and both expressed their gifts outside the home in the community of Israel. Yet, they were both married, and probably had children (Judges 4:4; 5:7; 2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22). Deborah also functioned as a Judge – “Deborah would sit under the Palm Tree of Deborah, which was between the cities of Ramah and Bethel, in the mountains of Ephraim. And the people of Israel would come to her to settle their disputes” (Judges 4:5).

What about the many women who traveled with Jesus and the male disciples (Luke 8:1-3)? They even supported Jesus and the twelve with their own resources. Shouldn’t they have been dutifully in their homes cleaning, cooking and baking? It was scandalous for a rabbi to have female disciples, and even more scandalous to have them traveling with Jesus’ entourage!

What about Phoebe? She was a deacon in the ekklesia of Cenchrea (Romans 16:1-2). What about Junia? She was outstanding among the apostles as an itinerant worker (Romans 16:7). Why does Paul designate some women as “co-workers,” the same word used for apostolic assistants like Titus and Timothy? Why does the New Testament not have any problem with sisters praying and prophesying in the gatherings of the saints (Acts 2:17-18; 1 Corinthians 11:5)?

As a side note, it is interesting to observe that those who place a heavy emphasis on a woman’s head being covered also usually forbid women to speak in the assembly. But that is the opposite direction from where Paul landed. Paul’s goal was for women to function with praying and prophesying, not to silence them (1 Cor. 11:5, 13).

The view that women are confined to the kitchen is usually linked with the idea that all good believing girls will get married and have children. But under the new covenant singleness is a viable option for men and women (Matthew 19:11-12; 1 Corinthians 7). To put younger and older women under heavy guilt if they do not pursue marriage is to deny the freedom Christ has bestowed upon us.

In Luke 10:38-42 we find a beautiful story that shows us vividly the Lord’s heart. Mary was in the “men’s space,” learning at Jesus’ feet. Martha was carrying out the responsibilities connected to having guests. She was frustrated that Mary was not helping with the preparations, but abiding in the living room with the male disciples. Jesus in no way put down what Martha was doing, but he did make it clear that Mary’s choice to be outside the kitchen was an excellent and acceptable one.

Nothing I have said should be taken as a downplaying or demeaning of motherhood. I am simply trying to bring needed perspective to a view that tightly and narrowly defines the “role” of women in a way that is seriously out of alignment with Christ’s revelation. Deborah held the public position of Judge, she publicly carried out her gifts as a prophetess, and yet she was also a “mother in Israel.”

– Jon Zens

For further reflection:

Karen Campbell’s article, “The Cult of ‘Godly’ Womanhood,” is soon to appear in the Midwest Christian Outreach Journal. Here is a shortened version of this excellent piece: http://www.thatmom.com/2011/07/21/the-sins-of-partiality-and-triviality-and-the-curriculum-that-promotes-them/

Jamal Jivanjee has put together many vital perspectives in his blog-post, “The Universal Enslavement of Women”: http://jamaljivanjee.com/2011/09/the-universal-enslavement-of-women/

Jon Zens, No Will of My Own: How Patriarchy Smothers Female Dignity & Personhood. http://www.amazon.com/No-Will-Own-Patriarchy-Personhood/dp/0982744633/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=131899

Jon Zens, What’s With Paul & Women? Unlocking the Cultural Background to 1 Timothy 2. http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Paul-Women-Jon-Zens/dp/0976522292

And the point is...???

I wear a head covering and am not stifled in any way.

I help my husband in his business. We grow tomatoes hydroponically. I do everything he does except tend to the mechanics of the operation, like collecting waste oil for the furnaces and keeping them running.

We are allowed to speak in church - we just are discreet and not demanding. I compiled the church bulletin for eleven years sharing inspirational pieces to fill the white space and nobody complained - they liked it. Oh, sure I will never be voted in for trustee, or anything of that nature, but I am not deprived of anything.

We ladies have our own little world in which we excel in: we teach Sunday School classes - children and other women. We are church hostess, take charge of church cleaning in which men and women work.

We have large families. In our church the size varies from one child to eight - many have 4-5 children. And many of these moms home school.

Many of these moms have gardens and preserve its produce by canning or freezing. They may also have venison or pork or beef processed that is in the freezer.

I did all the above when our children were still at home. In addition to helping my husband now I sew modest garments for those in need. I love this project - this is one God gave me and it has been a wonderful blessing. In fact I wish I would never get physically, or mentally tired because I really would love to sew 24/7! I am privileged and blessed. To suggest otherwise means someone is totally ignorant of what it takes to make a female tick!

And if a lady chooses to not marry, she is not deprived. She will likely go to nurses training to become an RN, or she may go to the mission field and put in a lot of time there. Locally, there is a older Mennonite single girl that just purchased a farm supply store that sells feed, farm animal meds, chain saws, weed eaters, saddles, etc. Some are business women.

Deprived? What are you talking about? You suggest that a married mother with the responsibility of caring for a family ought to leave the home and pursue a career? To have this mentality is consistent to being abusive! That husband must be lazy and not caring and loving his wife!

To be a SAHM is a wonderful blessing and privilege. We have many opportunities to minister, to do the things God intended for us ladies and it is very fulfilling. I do not envy the career woman who has to go to the office every day and meet cranky people and demanding schedules! Nor do I envy the ladies who are in church leadership and have to deal with cranky males! That would be torture and maddening! I think there is a reason why God ordained males to these positions - females do not have the emotional stamina to do such.

Submission is not a bad thing. For us it means we work alongside our husbands in our work and home. However, if there is a disagreement, he will do what he thinks is best, even if it means going against his wife's wishes. This happens in every home, unless the wife tells her husband where to get off and stay out of her way! Now, this is not kind, IMHO. He does not carry a big stick and hit us over the head with it!

We wives have so much responsibility that it is nice to see the men assume theirs and give us some relief!

So I wear a head covering? What of it? God has blessed me with many opportunities to witness for Him because of it. I know that my obedience means that the Angels are aware of it...I have little to no fear of my own personal safety...

Me deprived? Ya kidding! I have so many opportunities that I used to say I wished I could live to be 200 years old so I could do all the things I want. When I told someone this, she told me "Good luck!" Lately, I have decided that perhaps 90 years sojourn on this planet would suffice or even be excessive!

My take...my testimony..

PS: My husband read this article and he approved..or is that demeaning? [EDIT]

Good post, Ginny!

Encouraging responses everyone.

Reading this article at the top of this Thread reminds me of a recent thread that Brother Greg had posted; one part in particular:

"The liberation movement has challenged God's blueprint for womanhood. Women are clamoring for freedom and fulfillment by asking for total equality. This puts them into a power struggle- into a competitive role instead of a complementary partnership. Their quest for freedom only leads them into bondage." - The Woman's Role in the Plan of God - a tract

To escape what the Scriptures literally say to them, feminists clamor for freedom from the supposed bondage of them. In the end though, the feminist just brings herself into a different kind of bondage, which the Scriptures call "the fear of man."

True freedom in Christ, on the other hand, gives us all the courage to trust God when He tells us to submit to rightful authorities in our life. By obeying God's actual word to us, we demonstrate that we FEAR HIM, rather than any man.

Instead of looking for ways out of the various texts that some do not wish to take literally, we should rather read the instructions of the apostles to us very seriously and very literally. We should compare Scripture with Scripture in their contexts, allowing the various commandments to harmonize, as the original Spirit Who "breathed" them out intends.

And what comes from reading the inspired words of the apostles in this way, one may ask? What emerges is the kind of sold-out, fearless, entirely submitted, simple believer in GOD and HIS WORD that feminists are truly TERRIFIED of.

A.W. Tozer describes such a believer well:

"...he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom...

He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness TO DIE for the glory of the one and the salvation of the other.

But he will fear NOTHING that breaths..." -A.W. Tozer

I know you know, dear Sisters, that the narrow way of Christ isn't easy, but be encouraged: many around the world are walking in the same Way with you. And it is supremely worth it!

Be encouraged...

God bless you all,
Doug

The reality is that women are different from males. We all have different jobs to do. We are to cooperate with each other to get it done. My husband is so one-tracked minded he could never care for children and do housework at the same time. Men, on the other hand are so focused which explains why they cannot wash clothes, cook a meal, listen to the children - all at the same time. Men need to be focused intently on their work because so much is riding on them doing their job well - there is competition involved. My husband does his work well in the greenhouses, tending to the mechanics which would drive me crazy. On the other hand, I am very observant to the health of the plants - they 'talk' to me - and my husband depends on my insight to make the crop a success. It all comes down to using our natural abilities for the common good. Cooperation. I am his help-meet which means I am there to meet his needs in whatever way is needed. And that will vary from man to man from woman to woman. God made us wonderful - let us celebrate this differentness!

QUOTE:
"feminists clamor for freedom from the supposed bondage of them. In the end though, the feminist just brings herself into a different kind of bondage, which the Scriptures call "the fear of man.""

AMEN!

Dear GinnyRose and JiG,
I am really humbled and blessed by your spirit. According to Peter you are holy women who hope in God with an adornment of a gentle and quiet spirit and being submissive to your husbands. No wonder you are a blessing to many in this forum and I do not doubt you both being a blessing to those whom God has placed around you.
I Peter 3:
4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

With this spirit in you, God will fulfill His purpose for you in your generation. JiG, I really thought initially that you are a brother when I entered this forum, but you have put to me shame by the depth of the knowledge you have of the Lord. I thank God for sisters like you both. I firmly believe that the Lord will bring forth many spiritual Isaacs through you. I know there are many other sisters like you in this forum. I know some sisters do not have much light presently in this area and I believe and pray that they too will get the light you have. Heb 11:35 highlights the power that manifested through humble woman.
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection;

Continue to bless this forum with your humble spirit.

Below is an article by Francis Frangipine. I’ll want to post it in a separate thread.

A Word To The Women Of God

Francis Frangipane

The Genesis Distinctions
When the Lord created humankind, He placed unique graces in man and separate, but unique, graces in woman. He told Adam to name the species of life upon earth "and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name" (Gen. 2:19). Adam was created with an organizational, administrative capacity which enabled him to identify and define the world around him.
Within the genetics of this original man, there also existed the powerful, but dormant, qualities of the woman. While Adam slept the Spirit took from the man a rib. Fashioning it into a woman, the Lord created for Adam a companion who was not only suitable for him, but one who powerfully expanded man's creative capacities. Indeed, the woman brought many new graces into Adam's world that did not formerly exist: the foremost of which was the power to conceive and give birth.
It is important to remember: God created male and female in His image, according to His likeness (Gen 1:26). Of course, in certain ways, both Adam and Eve as individuals possessed reflections of the divine nature. They each could think, speak, dream and create. However, it was in the union of Adam and Eve, in their mutual respect of one another's strengths and graces, that mankind would possess a more perfect expression of the fuller nature of God.
As Adam beheld this first female, he said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man" (Gen 2:23). The term "woman" was a delineation used by Adam, identifying her as a unique variation in the species of man. She is both more complex and emotionally sophisticated.
Soon Adam began to understand the greatest power of his counterpart, her ability to conceive and bring life into the world. Recognizing this quality, Adam named her "Eve," which meant "life." Eve would play an integral part in the unfolding of life's new beginnings. "She was the mother of all the living" (Gen. 3:20).
We Need Revival
The primary strength of each gender is that man establishes, woman births. Remember, these qualities were not merely "human": they were reflections of the divine. Man's ability to bring order to one's world, to take what was random and give it definition and structure is a divine facility; woman's ability to conceive and incubate life, and then deliver life through birth is also an aspect of the divine nature.
Note also that Adam named the woman "Eve" (or "Life") before they had children. God gave the woman an ability not just to have babies, but to release life in a variety of its expressions. In fact, one translation says that Eve means to "enliven." Alone, Adam had been downcast; it was not good that Adam was alone. Eve enlivened Adam in ways no other creature on earth could. Adam could build a house; Eve made it a home. When Adam named Eve "Life," he was not only speaking prophetically of the first mother, but he spoke out of his own experience: Eve brought life into the structure of Adam's world.
While we are speaking in generalities, when we come into the spiritual realm, we see this same divine encoding replicated in the ministries of men and women. Jesus laid the foundation of the church with twelve men, whom He called to be apostles. Women excel in intercession, in spiritual sensitivity and the release of new beginnings. Again, this doesn't excuse men from prayer! For some of the Bible's best examples of intercessors are, indeed, men! We are speaking in generalities in reference to the spiritual tendencies of both genders. Neither distinction is more important than the other. Both are absolutely vital for the unfolding of God's will upon the earth.
Today, we are fighting the advance of Satan in many arenas: whether in wars and terrorist attacks or with the ever increasing expansion of iniquity in our world. We need revival. To possess a national awakening, the power God has placed in women must be released. All the efforts of man to establish laws and govern righteously will not truly transform our culture; we need the presence of God poured out. I am talking about something that is greater than government and righteous laws. I am saying that God is raising up and anointing a prayer army of women, who are about to be given even greater power as they intercede before God for their nations.
Women of God, the fact is, heaven needs you! You have been created by the Almighty to birth breakthroughs on planet earth! God has uniquely designed you with a latent ability to release life through your intercession. Together with you, we men can build and establish, and we are learning to pray, but you have a special grace to release new spiritual beginnings. Whether your prayer focus is for your husband or church leadership, whether you are interceding for your children, city or nation, you possess in your spirit the seed-realities that, through prayer, can release God's life into the world.
Yes, indeed, there is a battle; there still exists "enmity between [the serpent] and the woman" (Gen. 3:15). Satan especially hates you because it was your seed that bruised the serpent's head. It is amazing to me that God chose to bring His Son into the world, not through the heavens nor even through a woman impregnated by man, but through a woman made pregnant by God! God Himself came to earth through the woman's power to give birth!
Today the Lord is giving women a new grace, a new confidence against the powers of hell. They are not rebelling against men, but praying for them. Through their intercession, these godly women will prayer-birth powerful ministries on earth, both male and female. They will release new beginnings to the body of Christ.
Revelation 12 speaks of a "woman clothed with the sun." This word is not only talking about Israel or the church. It also reveals how God sees spiritual women: they are honored and crowned with distinction; pure and clothed with the glory of God. With confidence, they tread upon the powers of night. Dear army of praying women, it is your inherent destiny to birth that which shall rule the nations.

El-Bethel,

Wonderful article. I think Francis Frangipane catches the heart of the matter beautifully. It is so very unfortunate that there is that spirit of me vs him in male female relationships. It ought not so to be! Frangipane demonstrates wonderfully how females are made to assist and be an extension of her husband because of the differences, the strengths God has endowed to the woman. And this can only happen when both are in submission to the LORD Jesus. Our deacon used to say that one cannot have authority unless he is under authority. This works well in husband/wife relationships. He trusts her and gives her leeway to do what needs to be done because he knows she will work to do him good and not destroy. Lots of responsibility there for a woman, one that requires the wisdom of God to be successful.

Thanks for posting this article - it s one that bears rereading..

ginnyrose

After I posted this I got to thinking I never mentioned the spiritual aspect of submission - I focused on the practical, where the rubber meets the road.

Another poster suggested that submission to God should be foremost in the life of any couple. I agree. Both husband and wife needs to have a personal walk with the LORD. I cannot depend on my husband to be my savior because he did not shed his blood for me - only Jesus did that. I also cannot stand before the judgment seat of God and blame my husband for my failures and expect to be allowed into heaven. To serve my husband is an outgrowth of my serving God. Unfortunately, my husband is not God, but then I am not God either, so here you have two fallen creatures who are being changed from glory to glory and it can get difficult at times. But we have made a commitment to God and this is what we are responsible to and for, with God's help.

Yes, we as females must walk close to the LORD. We must have our private time with Him. Apart from that I am not sure we can even fulfill the task the LORD has set before us. It is a large one but one that can be done with the Holy Spirit empowering us.

(When my SIL left her husband, I asked my brother whether she was a Bible scholar. He said no...no surprise to me. Whenever a discussion of spiritual things came up she was always silent, had absolutely nothing to contribute. It is no wonder she succumbed to sexual immorality. She did not have the spiritual resources within to fight this temptation.)

When we submit to the LORD He will lead us in paths of pleasure and delight that the world cannot understand. They will look at us as being deprived and in bondage. When we work to fulfill our role in life as a female, then as a wife and mother, Proverbs 31 tells us that our husband will safely trust her. Think about that! What does that feel like? what are the practical implications of it? You can read the rest of Proverbs 31 and see what it looks like where the rubber meets the road...and I, as a woman who wears a head-covering, have heard many sermons by men, talks by other women based on this chapter.

(Are there abuses by males? by those in church leadership? Yes, it does exist, but not to the extent that one is forced to remain there - you can always move away from it. But this abuse of power is not limited to certain church groups, it happens everywhere. That is not the issue we are dealing with here.)

We are blessed and I wish this for all other God-fearing ladies.

ginnyrose

Thank you for taking the time to expand your thought here.

Laying down one's will to another fallen creature is amazing and truly wonderful in the eyes of the world.

Surely, it must be a wonderful God who calls the sisters to do this, with all the amazing grace they need to do it.

Thank you for your encouraging example.

Be well ma'am,
Doug

I have been hesitant to post on this topic because I do not have the time and emotional strength to debate like some of the more "heavy-duty posters" on this forum. But I would humbly like to share my testimony for what it's worth. I was saved at the age of 27 and had been married for 4 years at that time. My husband was not yet saved. I had been groomed for a career like most young people my age, and was working full-time in nursing. The Lord was very gracious to me in that I had a VERY long commute and "discovered" Christian radio on a bumper sticker. As with most new believers, I was SO HUNGRY for spiritual truth. I didn't even know what a Mennonite was at the time and had grown up with a feminist mother in an unbelieving home. I never heard a radio program say that women should quit their jobs and stay at home. But just from my new knowledge of the Bible, and the Holy Spirit in me and teaching about being a helpmeet to my husband, I KNEW that GOD wanted me to quit my job. Because there was no way I could work a full-time job and have my husband and my home be my first priority. My loyalties would naturally be toward my employer and my work... So I quit - and God gave me 3 years of solid Bible study before He allowed us to have children. I am grateful that my husband was in agreement, and I have never gone back to work. I recognize that some women have no choice.

I just have to say that after almost 3 decades of homeschooling 7 children, I am more convinced than ever that the nurturing and "keeping the home fires burning" is a unique and special calling of women. It is not in ANY WAY inferior or demeaning. I am the backbone of what goes on "out there" as we reach into different people's lives. I am the gatekeeper in prayer for my family...I think the spirit of the original post of "confining women to the kitchen" is what is demeaning - the heart of God is that a woman is fulfilled as she serves and completes. After all, Jesus Himself came to serve.

I just wanted to share my story....

Dear Sister,

Thank you for sharing your testimony.

A "Mother in Israel" is to be Greatly Honored in the Church of Jesus Christ.

May the Lord richly bless you ma'am, for your many sacrifices, and for your decades of labor.

Respectfully,
Doug

Dietolive,

Thank you for your kind words, but I hope I was not putting myself up in any way. What I was trying to convey was that it was not an adherence to any "creed" or "quiverfull movement".....it was GOD Himself who put this into my heart - nothing in me could have conjured it up, nor kept me going for a lifetime...Sacrifice IS the Christian life. I have lived in both worlds - the working world, and the keeper at home world. For me fulfillment has only come with the latter. I don't wish to spark debate, but I believe it is God's highest for women (and I am not speaking to those women who have to work)....

The view that women are confined to the kitchen is usually linked with the idea that all good believing girls will get married and have children. But under the new covenant singleness is a viable option for men and women (Matthew 19:11-12; 1 Corinthians 7). To put younger and older women under heavy guilt if they do not pursue marriage is to deny the freedom Christ has bestowed upon us.

Sure, that is true. That cannot be argued with. Pursue the Lord and find His will for your life. He directs your steps, not men.

In Luke 10:38-42 we find a beautiful story that shows us vividly the Lord’s heart. Mary was in the “men’s space,” learning at Jesus’ feet. Martha was carrying out the responsibilities connected to having guests. She was frustrated that Mary was not helping with the preparations, but abiding in the living room with the male disciples. Jesus in no way put down what Martha was doing, but he did make it clear that Mary’s choice to be outside the kitchen was an excellent and acceptable one.

A couple of names that come to mind are Jackie Pullinger and Elisabeth Elliot (who went back to Ecuador after her husband was killed).

Nothing I have said should be taken as a downplaying or demeaning of motherhood. I am simply trying to bring needed perspective to a view that tightly and narrowly defines the “role” of women in a way that is seriously out of alignment with Christ’s revelation. Deborah held the public position of Judge, she publicly carried out her gifts as a prophetess, and yet she was also a “mother in Israel.”

I understand brother. My experience is that in some homes Matriarchy hides behind Patriarchy.

This was an interesting quote:

Mike Pearl mentioned in NGJ that he never received so much response as he did with the issues of Jezebel complex, and then the Dysfunctional Patriarchy.
In light of the fact that it has been noted that often it is the wives who introduce these new concepts (they've read about?) to their husbands, Mike Pearl says that many times it is Matriarchy behind Patriarchy.
Reminded me of the latest rendering of Stepford wives, it was a woman who, "only wanted a perfect world!", that was behind everything.

I had noticed the Pearls have warned repeatedly against the wife manipulating her husband, and I often wondered about that. Thought they were paranoid!
But I myself have shied away from ladies fellowships, homeschool mom groups, because I can't take the subtle (or not so subtle) scorn they have of differing ideas. I'm a non-conformist!
So I couldn't imagine why a wife would want/need to manipulate her man -unless she has zero confidence in his ideas, or, she doesn't think he respects hers.
Also, I didn't like the notion that a woman is manipulating if her husband listens to her reasoning and changes his mind about something. Is that necessarily manipulating? I put that under the regular practice of submitting to one another!

An interesting thread.
http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-ladies-room/66975-matriarchy-sometimes-behind-patriarchy.html

And here is the original article.

The Balanced Patriarch
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2009/february/06/the-balanced-patriarch/

Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - Part 2
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/teens/article-display/archive////patriarchal-dysfunctional-families-part-2/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPID%5D=4&cHash=14d0166d68

In Christ,
Sarah

Dear Sister,

You wrote:
"Thank you for your kind words, but I hope I was not putting myself up in any way."

Yes, I know you weren't putting yourself up in any way, but I was. And this is as it should be. As you said, you did not choose motherhood and sacrificing for the sake of others because you were following some "movement", but rather, you were following God.

Be encouraged dear Sister. While many may disparage, directly or indirectly, overtly or subtly, the great work that sisters like you accomplish for the Kingdom of God, many others do appreciate it greatly.

Be well ma'am,
Doug

Hi Mama27,

It is hard to believe that people would disparage someone else who is following God, but it is true. Just like they disparaged Jesus. We look foolish to the world. I second what dietolive says. Be encouraged.

Those who do things because of a movement or because of traditions and doctrines of men, have a bigger problem and that is not hearing and following God.

Your story is very inspirational and I am praying for your son.

In Christ,
Sarah

Please forgive if this was already said, it took me so long to write it, there are many more replies now!
The word “submission” is colored by its context. In our culture, the context is sinful motivation, inappropriate views of value, and inequity. To discuss with clarity what the scriptures are addressing here, we must be vigilant not to mingle the darkness with the light.
Christ, in a sense, elevates the meaning of submission making it something we could hardly recognize in our sinful thinking. In Philippians it says
“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. “
What do we picture here? A beaten, subjected son, or a powerful, holy God, willingly and with purpose submitting Himself to a Father He loves with a pure love, and a Father who loves Him and glorifies Him? He became a servant for our sakes. What a privilege to follow His pattern as a wife.
Jesus, though “in him dwelled all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” submitted Himself to the Father.
This was not a case in inequity. This was His choice.

In the marriage relationship, there can be a dazzling illustration of Christ and His church. Christ, who gave Himself for His bride; He withheld no good thing…
I have often thought, as I have studied the Hebrew weddings and betrothal, the immense glory it is that the church is called the Bride of Christ. What the bridegroom did was a selfless thing. The bride was prepared and honored. Sometimes I think we struggle with the feminum role because we ourselves diminish it. If we see our value, our equality (not with Christ of course, but with all believers), we can peacefully take our place in His plan.

I know this is rambling, but I think I am trying to say, submission is not a dirty word; it is an honor if it is in loving obedience to God. And we picture Christ’s submission to the father, and the Church’s submission to Christ. And He lifts us up.

It is a place of peace and rest to live in submission.

Mamma 27, just read your post.
Thank you for sharing, and I praise Him for your obedience.

Thank you dietolive and Sarah and Leeza for your encouragement....and Sarah, can you pray for 2 sons?? They are enamored with the world.....God bless...Mama

I am glad to see these women's topics being talked about even if it is for selfish reasons on my part. I have about 3 weeks left in which to write my paper. My professor told us not to think of the paper as an argumentative paper but rather one of a soapbox. What ticks you off about things.

The twist on my part is that I cannot use the bible to say 'The bible says .....' instead of I have to say something such as 'This group believe and teaches.. insert verse' and tell how it relates to a woman's issue.

I have some ideas in which to write about, I just have to get them down on paper and see how they come out. In the process I look for links, online, in which to use for citations beyond the textbook that I can use.

John

I tried to answer your questionnaire last weekend, John, except that I don't fit the profile as I don't have a church that I am a part of. I tried the best I could and then somehow I deleted all that I had written....at that point I gave up - sorry.....maybe this conversation will help you somehow.

Love it, mama27! Just thought I better make it official by posting it online! :-)

mama27
You are ok.

What is amusing to me is I have sent this questionaire, by email. To 3 independent baptist church, one of them twice and I have not been acknowledged by them that they received it. My thinking is they think it is junk mail? Yet I did tell them who I was and such. I wondered, if I physically took one to a church and left an email with them if I would get a response?

I'm really sorry....my guess is just that people are plain TOO BUSY and don't want to take the time if they even got it. You could try hand-delivering it - sometimes a kind face helps :)

I don't think it is a matter of being too busy. People tend to do things they like to do if they don't like it they throw it away.

Me deprived? Ya kidding! I have so many opportunities that I used to say I wished I could live to be 200 years old so I could do all the things I want.

Ginnyrose, It is lovely to see your expression of delight in your lot in life. I know you give God the credit.

It would be wonderful see more who can enjoy their life situation so much. But it seems to be the exception far more than the norm. While there are Biblical and cultural ideals, people must live in the reality.

How do we minister to the countless Christian wives who are troubled because their husbands are difficult, are passive in their faith, not taking the “reigns” as she expects, or do not have the capacity to relate well. What about those countless women who have no escape from abuse, exploitation, and violence. (This theme is drummed out a lot these days – but it is common – and always has been.)

While some of us are privileged to rejoice over our good situation, many cannot. Many are afraid to share their pain for fear of being misunderstood, chastised or criticized. Or they mask it behind bravados – maybe even domineering- controlling behaviors. Underneath there is fear and pain – and a sense of helplessness and hopelessness.

Surely we are called to see life through their eyes, to weep with them, , and somehow point them to their true source of joy: Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. Blessed means “favored”, “honored”. And isn’t that just what Jesus did for many broken women – those disgraced in their own culture for one reason or another.

Surely no kitchen, no career, no husband, nothing can come close to giving the satisfaction that Christ can give.

Isn’t that what matters most!

Diane

Was wondering, are you all of one denomination, or do you all know each other?

are you all of one denomination

Hi Leenza, your question got me thinking. Paul said, “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.”Phil. 1:21 We know that Paul counted everything else as “rubbish” – even his distinct religious heritage. When all our temporal distinctions and identities (like denomination) lose their fascinations, then we are free to know Christ and his sufferings.

Paul wrote: “…that you stand firm as one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel….” 1:27 This suggests that as we learn FIRST the implications of being one in spirit and purpose under God, then our contentious-prone temporal distinctions will fall into line. We must not make them our first priority. The priority is on what brings his children, into “oneness” in purpose and spirit. Then we can spare ourselves of much time and mental energy related to our distinctions (be that gender/denomination/race etc). After all, “In Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female….”

And then – surely we will know each other in ways not possible through natural means – as we grow in our union with the Head.

May God move us in that direction – that we may be instruments of revival in the land.

Don't you desire that more than anything else!

Do read Philippians, and note where God directs your eyes.
Diane

"Was wondering, are you all of one denomination, or do you all know each other?"

Leeza,
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have gotten to know several of the women here on SI. I attend an independent Baptist church, but I am not necessarily aligned with the Baptists. Would prefer a house church actually - that has been our best church experience....

Thanks for answering! you all just seem to know each other, and I thought you went to the same church :)

I understand just what you mean, Leeza. You are newer here than I am, but I am only here a year. I thought the same thing - how do these people all know each other?? I guess it comes from people responding to your posts, or saying they will pray for you. And sometimes a certain type of post speaks to your heart, and you find that you are drawn to a certain post-er as we are all at different places in life. Maybe that leads to what seem to be friendships. I think though that people are from all over the country (and the world)...a beautiful thing about the body of Christ.

Leeza wrote:
"Was wondering, are you all of one denomination, or do you all know each other?"

I have never met anyone from SI except for Joy Corville and a local lady who posts infrequently. If you post here long enough, read everyone's posts you soon learn to know people. I have emailed privately some posters, discussed issues not pertinent for forum discussions. There is always a delight to get a PM from someone. I have done some things others consider horrible: I met two ladies, one from another discussion board and invited them into our home for the night! We so much enjoyed their visit! The one person had her children concerned - was worried we might be some crooks that are out there working to harm them! But such trust can happen when you communicate a lot, even if it is on the forum. (Having said this, I may frown on it if it would involve my child...:-0)

No, we are from different churches. But when people love the LORD, church affiliation matters little. Believe it or not, but I have been talking and emailing several years with a [former] Catholic lady I met online. It gets very interesting and edifying.

mama27 wrote:
"And sometimes a certain type of post speaks to your heart, and you find that you are drawn to a certain post-er as we are all at different places in life. Maybe that leads to what seem to be friendships. I think though that people are from all over the country (and the world)...a beautiful thing about the body of Christ."

True. So true.

ginnyrose

Diane,

You ask some important questions.

I suppose my quote that I have wished I could live to be 200 YO might convey the idea that my life is all roses...I never thought of that until I read your post. It ain't so. I just enjoy life and wish I had more time to do everything I find interesting.

My life has been difficult. The trials and tests many. But God was always there to sustain me. I have wondered why I am still alive? I have had one accident when I was a child that leaves me shaking my head: I was riding on a hay wagon when Dad hit a pot hole, throwing me off of it under the wheel of the wagon. Yes, I was run over and had no broken bones to show for it either. In my teen years I was suicidal, but God kept me. Yes, God has sustained me and in the midst of working hard, I find God a delight, his word a pleasure to delve into. I am of the opinion that the closeness the Bible characters had with God can be true of us as well. All it takes is a willingness to walk with him. That is all and go where he takes you.

QUOTE:
"How do we minister to the countless Christian wives who are troubled because their husbands are difficult, are passive in their faith, not taking the “reigns” as she expects, or do not have the capacity to relate well. What about those countless women who have no escape from abuse, exploitation, and violence."

No husband is perfect. Too many wives think their husband should be God incarnate, failing to realize we are to assist them, not expecting them to do everything for us and we sit back and do nothing. And when it is not forthcoming, we tend to whine and complain. Marriage is a join venture - all the way. I think too many wives fail to understand this. And I suspect too many men look at their wives as an outlet for their physical drives without considering that she is indeed a human being that desires to be loved as a human being, not as a servant or sexual object. The dysfunction that exists between husbands and wives has its roots in the curse placed upon women because of sin in the garden. Now, it is up to us to deal with it, like we do any other kind of pain. We do not fight pain, but work to heal it, so it is with husband/wife relationships.

One complaint I keep hearing by men is the wife's refusal to forgive her husbands alleged misbehaviors. Too many wives are so embittered by their husband's selfishness that they will not allow him a chance to redeem himself. This is so sad. And it happens all the time, even among religious people. They become bitter, perfect cranks...

Diane, your question...seems to me one should work at the heart of the issue, and not the surface one. The apparent issue is simply an exposure of what is in the heart. And here you need females to help females and men to help males and sometimes the two work together to bring about reconciliation. But the feminist movement has created an environment that too many females think they are better off dumping their husband and go it alone, independent of any male or they go find another prince charming that promises them the moon but end up giving them a rotten stick!

God designed life to be difficult so we will experience a need for Him. We are blessed when we recognize this need and allow Him to fill the void within our heart.

God bless...

ginnyrose

Thanks for answering, I had put a post up one day for prayer, and no one responded. I think it was cause I am new, and the subject was my hubby's job loss. People at church have been very scarce since he lost his job...real strange. Do people think it is catching? But, we have learned to trust Him more, so it may be part of growing.

Awww, Leeza - I don't even remember seeing it. Please don't feel people don't care. I can only speak for myself, but I most always try to stop and pray immedately when I see a prayer request come through, b/c sometimes life gets busy. But sometimes I don't have time to post to say I am praying. I know it has meant a lot to me when people have responded that they are praying. Sometimes we feel so alone, don't we?

I have walked the job loss road too - I will pray - pls keep us posted. God bless you!

Thanks for caring, it means so much in the body of Christ. God is totally providing, but it is such an encouragement when people pray. Could you pray that He makes His will clear, and that we will have ears to hear, and hearts to respond. My son also just lost his job, and may not get any unemployment because he had a contract....he has three little ones. We want to help them, and we want to honor God.

I will be praying, Leeza...maybe you should post your request again....I couldn't find it...We are in hard times, but what better way for God to get the glory! Bless you for wanting to honor Him!