Truth about Gifts of Holy Spirit

Mathew 15 -
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

As I was reading these verses today, God directed me to share these words with you. There has been so much thoughts and fights over gifts of the holy spirit. And people saying gifts are important to know that you are filled with Holy Spirit there by forcing others who have not received gifts to doubt their infilling of Holy spirit. Also there are frequent posters here who claim to speak in tongues when they pray for others and are proud about it.

But listen to what Jesus has said here. The mark of a Godly man is not in the gifts he received, but it is in the fruit of the spirit that you see in him. If you see even one thorn in them like lack of love or peace or kindness in words etc then they do not have the fruits and they are not men of God.
In verse 22 Jesus says that these people who do not enter the kingdom say that they did prophesy in Jesus name, drove demons and performed many miracles. Which means they had the gifts to prophesy , gifts to drive demons and then gifts of doing miracles in Jesus name. Still they were cast out of Kingdom of God, why? Because they did not have the fruits of spirit and were evil doers.
So before fighting on the gifts that you now posses first examine your own life to see whether you have the fruits in you. If there is no fruit then the gifts are useless and will not get you into kingdom of God.
So gifts are just a sign that God gives to some to believe that they received Holy spirit. Not everyone is given a gift to believe, because they already has faith to believe that God has filled them with Holy Spirit based on the change in their life style.
To summarize- I want people not to be proud of their gifts because it means nothing to God when it comes to letting you into kingdom. And do not lose heart if you do not have gifts but you see a change in your life. All that is important is a new creation (Galatians 6).

hi, please do not go where you just went...the gifts are of the Spirit as the fruit also. this which you wrote refers to people who never got saved(never knew you) and are mockers of gifts. the fruit comes from resting in the finished work of Jesus and walking in the spirit. the gifts are for today s are the fruit.

Hello,

I am severely disturbed by what I see in the contemporary "evangelical" world. I have spent a lifetime reading the Scripture, but have given only a passing glance at "theology". At the moment I am reading the first epistle of St.John and am finding what I see in all the rest of the Word-that the marks of a true child of God are an aversion to sin and faith in the Son of God. The idea that one can be "saved" and be deliberately walking in ways of sin is one that I find in a particularly popular school of theological thought, but see absolutely no support for it in either the epistles or in the words of Jesus.
Regarding the gifts of the Spirit-the Scriptures tell us that they are for the building up of the Church. What I am seeing too much of today is "gifts" that seem to be an end in themselves rather than for the glory of God and the benefit of His people. If we truly belong to God, I believe that our first ambition will be to delight Him by loving obedience (the "sign" which St. John speaks of in his epistle). When our hearts are thus in tune with Him, then alone are we ready to receive His gifts for His use. God has shown me on several occasions that what people thought were gifts of the Spirit were actual counterfeits of the same. We place ourselves wide open to spiritual deception when we knowingly allow sin in our lives. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness!"

hi, please do not go where you just went...the gifts are of the Spirit as the fruit also. this which you wrote refers to people who never got saved(never knew you) and are mockers of gifts. the fruit comes from resting in the finished work of Jesus and walking in the spirit. the gifts are for today s are the fruit.

my dear sree, i will state that the two most important things in my life is knowing Jesus in an intimate way and being known of Him who died for me and knew me before the earth was formed. i am amazed at how wonderful the post of are you casting nets or casting stones is and i recommend it as far as our attitudes in ministry need work.

"What is the excellent way?

We skim over verses and think that Paul dropped off the gifts of the Spirit after he said, COVET EARNESTLY, and then went on to Charity. But he wasn't saying that we should expel the gifts for the sake of Charity, nay, he was lifting them up further by saying that if you want to covet earnestly the best gifts follow after Charity (or sacrificial love).

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."

Praise God for bringing in the proper balance to this discussion on the gifts and the fruit, for God is concerned about both. Christ lives in us and we are in Him, and as we abide in Him the result will be "much fruit". The baptism of the Holy Spirit has been poured out to enable believers to do the work of the ministry. Every believer has been given a gift or gifts for ministry, and all of these gifts are to be operated in the love of God to the building up of the Body of Christ.

Mike

"So though they were saved and gifted with gifts of spirit they never worked on their salvation to know Jesus fully."

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

I just don't understand what you are trying to prove here. I originally wanted to share with you this scripture from Acts to prove that one cannot drive demon except though the gift of driving demon that they received from Holy Spirit. That is why the 7 sons of Sceva where kicked out by Demon when they tried to drive them. These evil doer were given the gift and that is why they say to God they drove demons, not just they tried to (like Sons of Sceva) but the infact did with success. But when they backslide God did not take the gifts from them like how we do not take the marriage gifts that we give others when they divorce one another.
So the point I am trying to make is, a person cannot be called a man of God just by the presence of Gifts. Do you find the fruits of Spirit in him? If not he is not a man of God.
If you want me to explain you the scriptures I can do it all day but I don't have time to argue any more. What I shared is directly a revelation from holy spirit. Let those who have ears hear.

hi, my sheep know my voice... these are not my sheep.

If they were turned away by Jesus to everlasting damnation then they were never saved to begin with. It would be an impossibility. To say they never "worked on their salvation" and were therefore turned away is to say we earn our salvation for ourselves... and Jesus sacrifice was a waste and meant nothing.

Be careful because some of what is being said here is really close to being unorthodox.

Some of what is being said here is what Ellen G White of the Seventh Day Adventist Church taught.

Krispy

Dear Krispy,

That is why I clearly said that I do not want to argue on the definition of Saved. Because it itself a big thing to explain and not everyone understands it.
But to answer your question. why then did Paul say that work of your salvation with fear and trembling.
By work I don't mean you need to do everything. But you need to make sure you listen to Holy Spirit. A small human element is always involved in Salvation. This is proved in all the miracles that Jesus did. Even in raising Lazerus he asked the people to move the rock. If they did not move the rock Jesus won't have raised Lazerus. So raising the dead which is a tough task will be done by God but the easy one like moving the stone will be done by us.
Instead of challenging me in the definition of saved why dont you challenge me in other things that I quoted? I know people here have different definitions of saved and I don't believe it is wrong.
God cannot be contained in one definition. When I speak to someone I speak of the human element involved in salvation but when I speak to God I say it is by his work I am saved. I don't want any soul to be lost because it was not told of that small human element.
if you do not agree with what I said then please hear brother Keith Daniel's sermon on the fear of God in recently concluded conference.

hi, my sheep know my voice... these are not my sheep.

hi sree, after being in the ministry for 48 years and ministering with folks like len ravenhill and danny ost and a e eccols etc. after bible col. and some seminary and seeing thousands added to the kingdom i would love to sit and talk with you for hours pouring over the scriptures. i live in baton rouge at the old dorms of jsm.and do this all the time with the students here. it has become the highlight of my ministry and brings great joy to me.love you.jimp

Dear Krispy,

You wrote:
"What is actually being stated here by some is exactly what the heretic Ellen G White taught, and is still what the SDA and the JW's and the Mormons all teach. Jesus made a down payment for our salvation, and now we must earn it from there.

I'll call it what it is. False... heretical and it's a lie from hell."

Now my dear Brother, those of us who hold to the "conditional security" understanding; comparing Scripture with Scripture and taking them all at face-value, (our security is in-Christ, but not outside of Him), are used to being calling heretics by you.

Our sweet brothers who hold to an opposing system of theology may continue to rail against us, and "poison the well" by mixing us in with supposed false teachers, (as they have been doing for the past 500 years or so), but we will still love them anyway. :O)

God bless you Brother, as well as all others who yet disagree.

Sincerely,
Doug

Great testimony. I truely appreciate you and always have respect for every soul created by God.
I am just an unworthy slave who just do what God ordered me to do. I don't have any ministry other than a body of Christ that God has gifted me.
Brother can you please answer all the questions that I have posted in this thread as a reply to your post? Please do not answer my scripture with another and there by extending the argument.

Dear brother Krispy or Jimp,

Can you please answer these questions plainly with quoting another scripture as an answer? the reason I don't want another scripture is, again there will be a misquoting resulting in only arguments.
1. These evildoers called Jesus Lord. But 1 Corinthians 12-3 says :- no one says Jesus is lord except through the power of Holy Spirit. So why are these people who experienced the power of Holy spirit are called evil doers?

2. 'never knew you' - the knowing referred here is an indepth and intimate knowing of a person. It is not a physical knowing. If it is physical knowing then God knows everyone of his creation, how can he lie?
The knowing here is same as the one in Genesis 4 -1:-
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.” 2
So though they were saved and gifted with gifts of spirit they never worked on their salvation to know Jesus fully.

3. The gifts of Holy Spirit are not given to unbelievers. if they are unbelievers as proclaimed by you then how were they able to drive demons? Jesus himself said demons cannot be driven by the power of demons. Where then they got their power from? May be they were lying but if they did then why did Jesus mention about a lie?

4. I agree with you that fruits come by perseverance and working with Spirit continously but gifts are givento SOME as a token immediately when they is baptized in Holy spirit. All I want to convey here is the presence of Gift will not take you into the kingdom of God. Only the presence of Fruit. So let us continue walking with Holy spirit to bear fruits instead of fighting and boasting over the gifts.

5. If you still want to believe that a person with just gifts can enter the kingdom of God then please proceed. But I don't want your blood in my hands so I told you the truth here. Also please do not take others blood in your hand by spreading such faulty beliefs.

I am just asking you to answer me by quoting your understanding of the scripture that I have mentioned here. I do not want you to come out of scripture.
The problem with you is you believe in doctrines and God cannot be contained in Doctrines. I don't believe that either conditional or unconditional is the perfect doctrine. There are scriptures that support both in Bible. So when I quote these scriptures you might ask me another question by quoting another scripture. Then who will give us the answers?
Please answer my questions other wise stop spreading such false teachings.

The whole thread is not about the definition of getting saved it is about the meaning of gifts and then their purpose in our life.

hi, it is very difficult to answer questions in the bible without stating what the bible also says.i will start with knowing Jesus... you are correct that this is the same word that adam knew eve and it produced a son... the answer is when one has this same knowlege with Jesus it produces the new life that we are birth from above by the Holy Spirit... if you have not and do not have this intimacy with Him ,you are not His.... there have been many charltans who have called Jesus Lord as act to gain personal gain that never called Him Lord with there lives....they simply gave lip service to him.... there is no evidence that these folks actually cast out any devils or healed any sick for this is a work of the Holy Spirit and not of man... years ago when i moved in these same gifts in a mighty way i got puffed up in the flesh and lost the power to heal a gnats wing.God will not share His glory with any man.....it is also true that to move in this realm you must be baptized in the Holy Ghost for it is the Holy Ghost that does the work and not the man... the man is like a hose linked to the source( Holy Spirit) and benefiting the dry ground ( those who get healed or delivered) i hope this helps you understand now where i am coming from...jimp

Oh Brother Krispy,

If you keep erecting "straw men" to knock down, you'll win every time.

We don't merit any part of salvation. The law of Faith exludes all boasting. We know every good thing comes from the Father of Lights and that the Son draws all men to himself.

I understand you are convinced otherwise, so say or quote whatever you like.

In the meantime,

God bless you Brother!
Doug

"If thats what you think I believe then you clearly understand nothing about me."

Whatever you choose to say must be fine with me. I will love you regardless.

Be well my Brother,
Doug

years ago when i moved in these same gifts in a mighty way i got puffed up in the flesh and lost the power to heal a gnats wing.God will not share His glory with any man.....i

Thanks a lot brother, your testimony just answers it. You were able to exibit the gifts but when pride came in you lost the annointing. This is what I said, if some young believer who saw your gifts earlier try to follow you when you were in those moments of pride then he would have been lost.
This is what I am trying to say here, a presence of Gift is not a mark of a man being holy. If you do not have the fruits of spirit which is humility in this case then you were not a man of God to follow.

there is no evidence that these folks actually cast out any devils or healed any sick for this is a work of the Holy Spirit

To summarize once saved is saved for ever is not true, even in your case you lost it by your pride. It can happen to anyone, even to me.

Believers please think, which is profitable to christians - to say that they are saved when they are not? or to say that they need to work on their salvation by obeying the holy spirit and their gifts will not save them?

dear sree, i never lost my salvation or the my relationship with Christ and you are jumping to conclusions that confuse my kindness for weekness. your pride is over whelming in trying to say that my Redeemers blood is not strong enough to keep me as He promised. if you think that seeing miracle after miracle in ones ministry as a young man is not infectuous and and dangerous then you dont know jack about why the jews waited for men to reach 30 to begin to voice any ministry or why moses could not deliver until 80. i will no longer cast my pearls before someone who will speak to an elder as you have.Jesus did not come to cover sin. He came to take the full wrath of the Father on Hisself for the sin of mankind and He did not come to Condemn the world but to save it.i had a wonderful relationship with Jesus during this whole phase of my life and it was a wonderful lesson and many were saved during that season. who are you to krino me (judge)or anyone else for that matter . do not be so easily linked with the accuser of the brethren.jimp it is hard for an old man to deal with someone who has all the answers before the questions are asked

It seems that every one of us has something to contribute and also much that we that can learn from one another.

Even in our "error"; even when we disagree with each other.

Love to all in Christ,
Doug

You and I can't just turn on the gift whenever we want. That would be nice, but who's Will are we operating by, ours or Gods?

In order for you and I to operate faith we need to turn to God and obey Him and in obeying Him we love Him. Do you remember what Jesus said to whom you love the most you will obey?

If we don't love God, we will not obey Him, thus faith cannot operate.

So only thing we disagree is on the evil doers, i believe they were people who accepted Jesus and later stopped obeying him and started walking in their own way. that is all. If you do not agree this then that does not mean I am wrong.

John 3:2 Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Did you know that in order for faith to operate you have to have at least one fruit ingredient, And in other cases several operating at the same time?

Love!

True, I never said faith will operate only when you have fruits. I said fruits are the sign of a man of God whom you can trust and follow. I honestly do not have all the fruits but I am praying and purifying myself (1John3) everyday.

Brother please do not advice believers to follow people who commit signs without seeing their fruits. Assuming that I am wrong can you please explain me. I believe as a brother in Christ it is your responsibility to correct me if I am wrong.
Mathew 24 -24:-
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Please explain me so that I can learn from you how to identify such false prophets if they also commit signs? So based on what you told false prophets will not commit signs but how are they doing it?

My dear brother, please do not look for signs and gifts when looking for a Godly man to follow. You will be deceived. Look for God in his heart and actions.
For Jesus said many will ask for signs but only sign that will be given is that of Jonah. In case of Jonah no sign was given.

sree , where did you see me when i ever brought any reproach on the ministry ... how do you know the fruit of people without getting to know them and watching them and loving them. i have known many a man scorned by the church brought before councels and belittled who had great fruit and no scandals. of course you must bare fruit but the bible also say that these signs shall follow them that believe.have a great day.

Brother Jimp. I am sorry if I have offended you. I have always started all my post with a clear word of respect for you.
I believe that when pride comes into a man no matter how big he is (how many he saved) he is not in Christ anymore until he repents. If you do not believe in this then I am sorry for sharing the truth with you. I cannot think of my savior who washed the feet of even his betrayer walking in pride and then saying he did the will of God all his life.
That is just me, I take sin too serious even if it is just pride.
I believe in the blood of Jesus and it cleanses all my past sins no matter how bad it is. Infact the word you used is covering which is an old testament word. Cleanse is the new testament. Cleanse means not even seeing us as a sinner, truely justified.
Since you get offended it is better for us not to discuss this. Please forgive me.

Dear brother, No i never posted it. I don't believe anyone knows the date and time of Jesus second coming. Including Jesus himself when he was on the earth and was filled with holy spirit. Then forget about a mortal man knowing it!!!
God bless you.

Brother Krispy, Just in lighter note. I am so interested in knowing the preachers whom you listen too. Because your belief is against most of them whom I listen.
What is you view on Brother Zac? he is a man of God whom I have personally know for sometime and seen the fruits of spirit in him and his life. I also got a chance recently to spend sometime with Keith and David Ravenhill. They all believe and preach things against your belief.

Brother Krispy,

I have heard Paul Washer before. He has always spoken against -once saved is saved for ever. In all this teachings he has said that just because you said a prayer once that Jesus to come into my heart does not mean you are saved. Also he has acknowledged many times that he is not perfect. He even acknowledged that he needs to stay on alert with women when he goes for mission work. If he believed in what you said that 'a man once saved cannot fall' then how is that he said these things?
So if it is possible for him to fall then how will he be reconciled with God if he does not repent? If he feels secured about his 'once saved' doctrine then where is the need for him to repent again?

What is your interpretation of Hebrews 6-4:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The verse clearly indicate that a partaker of Holy Spirit can fall away.
I am asking these questions to learn. I still cannot understand how one can effectively put God inside doctrines. Please forgive me if I have hurt you by these questions.

I am sorry if I have misunderstood you but you could have said that in a polite way. Anyways, I thought you believed in a saved man cannot lose his salvation. And there is no human element in Salvation.
If anyone pointed anything wrong in what I said I will first check my post to see whether I was misleading and then clarify instead of getting offended. But that is just me.
As stated earlier my post was not to prove you wrong, it was intended to get more clarity. If you think what you believe is right then you should be able to explain the verse I have quoted from Hebrews 6-4.

Good point... if you're saved you are saved. Period. And if you are saved you will manifest both the gifts of the Spirit AND the fruits of the Spirit. If you do not, then you are not saved. Period. We do not do these things on our own, God enables us to do these things... this is called Grace.

I don't know how else I can interpret this. You said if a person is saved then he is saved for ever.
How do you want me to interpret this? That is why I quoted the words of Paul Washer on believers falling for sin.

I accept English is not my prime language but I read Bible in English and God helps me interpret it. I never shy away from explaining any verse.

So everytime you sin you believe you lose your salvation?

And YES... you have greatly misunderstood not just Paul Washer, but also my words. But I dont have time to go over this stuff again.

1. You have not explained any of the scriptures I have quoted so far to support your so called belief.
2. You get offended, when I ask you a question assuming that your theology is right. When Jesus was surrounded and questioned by Pharisees on his teachings, he answered them patiently. I cannot think of Jesus getting offended, saying you people won't understand so I won't explain you.
Mark of a man filled with Spirit is to be like Jesus also to even speak in a home Church he needs to have desire to be more like Jesus. I am sorry if I have hurt you but this is plain truth.

You are taking one verse (out of context) and ignoring EVERYTHING else that Paul wrote, especially Romans.

The error in this thinking is that staying saved is entirely up to you

Again am telling you, just because a person has to repent does not mean we say God does nothing. You always go to extremes when I prove you wrong. Please stay within your topic first. Lets discuss God's role latter. I never mentioned that salvation is entirely human. I never said that. You now misunderstood me and I seriously doubt your English now :).
I already spoke to you about the small human element in salvation, I never said it is everything. Please do not misquote me like this.

Ugh... I'm not going any further with you on this. As I said about 5 posts before... I DO NOT HAVE TIME.

I perfectly respect your time. But if I was you I will not answer any other posters in SI forum until I get time to explain the verse for which I had no answers [and then ran away with lack time reason]. Just for the sake of not spreading wrong teachings.
Brothers I know these words of mine are harsh but it is better for you to take this pill rather than many innocent believers struggling with Sin due to your theology.
I pray that God will show you the answers. The mistake with you is you rely so much on the theology of Men instead of Bible.

Forgive me brother for making you feel it like a battle. I came to you with scripture and not with any carefully designed theology. If you feel you lost, may it be to bible and scripture.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as i have loved you.
also titus 3:9 but avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
what is all this fighting among brothers.
and Its not what we think it is what the bible says.
so many christians major in the minors.

well glory to God, very well stated...jimp

paul washer is a full calvinist who full believes in the persaverance of the saints

he just doesnt believe that every one who prays the prayer will be come saved ,,,,,,

These folks were merely "gift chasers" and were 'never' saved. Jesus says to them, "I NEVER KNEW you."

These wanted the 'power-gifts' without the TRUE Giver of the gifts.

I believe that even with gifts a believer can fall and lose in salvation, and I have seen this happen where great men of God fall. This helps me to be careful about my christian life. If you do not believe in this and still remain true to Christ, you will still be saved. Our Judge is God, not theologians.
All that maters is Christ likeness.
Glory be to God.

dear sree,our father is God... He has already poured out judgement and wrath on His Son at the cross. you do not understand the gospel or grace... also have fruit not fruits... the facts are that you and most do not understand greek but you are not up on english either.please stop writing things that stir up strife and discord and allow others to be left to the mercies of God for they are new every morning.have a good day.jimp

people sometimes read an "attitude" into what I say that simply is not there. I cant do anything about that.

Krispy

I have this problem all the time in some things I post on forums. It's just the way we are, the way we come across, it's the way we have been since we were born. This is why I totally understand you in all your posts, even thought we may not always agree, I understand you, to were I don't take it personal. I even come across like this in person, it's just my nature, they way God made me, and all my friends know this and never take it personal. I just call it sarcasm with a touch of humor, we can't all be timid, thank God!

you do not understand the gospel or grace... also have fruit not fruits...

God is all mighty; we cannot restrict him in human doctrines and theologies.
When one gets offended when people quote revelation that is against their doctrine is a clearly proof of Worldliness.

Sree... I do not feel in any way that I "lost" anything... this is NOT a contest.

It's not that Hebrews doesnt say what it says... the question is: what does it mean in light of ALL the rest of scripture?

After reading this I cannot read rest of your post. I am sorry. I believe everything written in Bible is a true word of God.
I have told you many times, I do not belong to any theology or doctrine. So I can accept all the word of God fully in my life.

Dear Brother Sree,

Leonard Ravenhill once said something to the effect “One day, someone is going to read the Bible and actually BELIEVE IT, and the rest of us will be completely embarrassed...” Not an exact quote, but that was the general idea.

Brother Sree... You write as though the Scriptures actually mean what they say, and I truly appreciate you taking the time to point out that gifts are no ultimate proof of salvation; but rather, as our Lord has warned us, “you will know them by their FRUIT.”

You write as though you are completely unaware of Calvinism and their systematic doctrines of grace, known by the acronym “TULIP”, or those who still hold to at least to one tenant of it: “Once saved, always saved”, or “OSAS”.) If that is truly the case, I can see why you would write the way you do; the meaning of the Scriptures, taken at “face-value are so “plain” to you; “how is it possible that someone could seriously deny them...?

Regarding the defense raised by some against some of what you have said, I feel it would be beneficial, not only for them, but also for all other sincere readers to understand what kind of sin we are talking about. Let us go to the account of Jesus with the adulterous woman in John 8. Jesus, by direct inference, defines the kind of sin we are speaking of:

Jesus told the woman: “Go, and SIN no more.” Was our Lord then, requiring the impossible? Was He saying in essence “Go, and be PERFECT”? No my brothers, it ought to be clear that our Lord and Master understood what “sin” was and what He requires from us regarding it.

Obviously, He could not have been referring to the “incidental”, “unforeseen”, or “unknowable” sins, (as many who hold to “TULIP” or “OSAS” believe), but rather to “willful”, “deliberate”, and “rebellious” sinning against the law of God. “Go”, says our Lord, “and do not rebel against what you know to be God’s commands again.”

Here we see both the goodness, as well as the severity of God toward us. Goodness, towards those who will repent, but severity towards those individuals who will not.

In the light of all this, I for one thank God from the bottom of my heart for His Amazing Grace, which is “new every morning...” I rejoice with all the family of God, that all our imperfections are under the blood of Christ, and that, more amazing still, the rebellious evil of the deliberate sinner, can yet be forgiven, and he himself restored by repentance toward God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the perfect atonement that His shed blood makes for all sin!

Would to God that Augustine, (that late fourth century genius of a man), had never unleashed his peculiar interpretations of “individual election” upon the Church, or that he had never changed his brilliant mind from agreeing with the early church on their view of “conditional security only in Christ” to his new “reactionary” view of “Unconditional Security for the individual elect”, in his polemical writings against the teachings of Pelagius...

For all who may be interested and missed it, come and read what the earliest Christians after the time of the apostles believed about Salvation, and our life of Faith in the Son of God:

Early Church Views On Salvation: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41193&forum=40&1

For all who may not be interested, that is fine too. If you love the Lord in truth, and trust only in His shed blood as we do, we accept you wholeheartedly in the beloved.

Therefore, let us not be enemies because we disagree on some point, and let there no longer be name-calling, or “straw-men” building, “poisoning the well”, or other logical fallacies thrown at us, but rather, peace.

Let the disputer come, if he must, in peace, armed with the facts of History, and the Scriptures, and with his mind enlightened and his heart filled with the fruit of the Spirit: then we can discuss the matter in love.

Our readers are many; many are sincere and do love God, and want His Truth at all costs, and with all their heart. Our Great and Majestic God too, is our Holy Auditor as well.

Let us therefore “do that which is good, and [we] shall have praise of the same.”

Be well Brother, and all who may read these words, God bless you!
Doug

Krisp I hardly think he was "jabbing." I think everyone in here is going back and forth with this kind of attitude:

YOU ARE WRONG. I'M GOING TO THROW THIS DOCTRINAL SPEAR RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.

WHAT? HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY DISAGREE WITH ME? I READ THE SCRIPTURES! I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

NOT GONNA ANSWER YOU AND BY NOT ANSWERING I WIN! NA NA NA NA NA.

Guys, this is ridiculous. Stop the pity party. This is scripture. Can we talk about this like brothers instead of enemies? Take a lesson from the Jerusalem Council why don't you?

There some great truth in what you said. I learnt a lot.

You write as though you are completely unaware of Calvinism and their systematic doctrines of grace, known by the acronym “TULIP”, or those who still hold to at least to one tenant of it: “Once saved, always saved”, or “OSAS”.) If that is truly the case, I can see why you would write the way you do; the meaning of the Scriptures, taken at “face-value are so “plain” to you; “how is it possible that someone could seriously deny them...?

Actually I am not what I am now. I believed in John Wesley's doctrines. And tried to restrict God within it.
But after hearing Keith Daniel on 'War of Saints' in recently concluded conference on 'Fear of Lord' in which he gave an unbiased view of all doctrines, my heart changed and I truly accepted God for what he is, instead of restricting him to one doctrine.
Now I do not believe that Calvinism is wrong, no it is right but not complete and neither is Arminianism wrong, but not complete either.
Once I opened my heart for truth, God showed me new meaning to scriptures, like John 3 -18:- He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already.
Wow, He who said 'go sin no more' also says that believe in me and you will not be judged.

In the light of all this, I for one thank God from the bottom of my heart for His Amazing Grace, which is “new every morning...”

Jesus told the woman: “Go, and SIN no more.” Was our Lord then, requiring the impossible? Was He saying in essence “Go, and be PERFECT”? No my brothers, it ought to be clear that our Lord and Master understood what “sin” was and what He requires from us regarding it.

Jesus did not ask her to be perfect. He asked her to be blameless. Noah was blameless in the eyes of Lord. Surely he was not perfect, but he had no known sin in his life. When God shows us a sin in our life (through Holy Spirit), in this case adultery, we need to repent and ask God for forgiveness. When one does that he is blameless in what sin he knows.
Where does this repentance come from? Let us better not argue on this. I believe the interest to repent and strength to repent came from him I just accepted it. But that does not mean I did not repent nor that repentance is of least value.

QUOTE: "I actually have had good conversations with die2live. We have a pretty good repore with each other..."

Thank you Brother. :O)

Lots of sound theology/doctrine in this thread. One thing was missing-the Spirit of Christ.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,

If what we speak or write does not give grace to those who hear or does not edify, it'll surely grieve the Holy Spirit of God.
One version says Do not smother the Holy Spirit.

Brother, I only posted once to this thread on pg 7 - only because Matthew chpt 15 regards those who were Never saved and "the fruit" that Jesus is referring to in that Chpt is not the "fruit of the Spirit" of Gal 5 that these people lacked, but "the fruit of obedience to His Word".

I have clear respect for what you believe. In fact we both agree on the same thing but with very minor differences. Can you please post your reply after reading this post? I was actually waiting to hear more from you previously.
I have never mentioned the word that these evil doers were saved in my original post. When people kept asking me, I had to let my view out. I know that my view is controversial. So I originally hid it not to provoke an upraise :)!
But to clarify, I think you misunderstood my original post. I never said they had the fruit of the spirit. I said they had the gifts of the spirit. But never worked to get the fruit. Fruit and Gifts are two different things though they come from the same Holy Spirit. Gifts are given as a symbol of baptism in Holy Spirit, but fruits come by continuously walking with the Holy Spirit. Jesus compared the Kingdom of God to a seed which when grows becomes a tree and produces fruit. So it all starts with seed and not tree. God does not plant a tree in our heart, he only puts a seed. So these people were not obedient to his word and hence the tree never grew and bears fruit. But our righteous God did not take the gifts away from them though he knew that they are deceiving people with those gifts. Why did God then let these people be deceived by such teachers? Answer is in John 7 -17

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

this thred is still edafing ,,,,,,tho it may have become heated ,,,the forgivness and being excepting is evedent

and that in its self is the lesson to be lerned

we may get heated and reactionary, but if we except one another ,and agree to disagree ,,,then hallaliua ,to the lord ,who gives is spirit , so we may bond in peace

weasly said it in his sermon at whitfieds funural

we should remain close to one anothers doctrines and theology,, weather calvinist ,or arminan

tho weasly said that ,,,,,i feel whitfield would have agreed

let not wait till our funarals to as weasly said agree to disagree

wether these were true gifts of the spirit or weather they were false ,, is truly, not taught in scripture ,regarding when jesus said i never new you ,,we can only give our opinions ,,and those opinions dont carriie the same athority as scripture

i pesonaly dont believe these people were bornagain ,that is why jesus said i never knew you depart from me you workers of enquity

gifts of the spirit weather they be of the holy spirit ,or weather they be of demonic ,the prince of the power of the air ,the spirit which workes in the children of disobedance ,,,can look the same and sound the same ,so we should never use gifts as a rule to mesure weather one is a deciple ,,,but the fruit of these spirts ,are allways different ,,and we can as jesus said no of which spirit a person is by the fruit of that spirit

now weather a true desiple can exebit true gifts ,but never truely no jesus ,or better said , jesus not realy noing them , proving that they never realy had real fruit ,,,,,,will come down to weather we lean towards a calvinistic ,or arminian view

and weather some one can have gifts of the spirit ,and at the same time not truly be born again

we can look at judas who obviously exasised gifts to cast out demons ,heal ,and prophecy god message ,,

was he realy bornagain ,,,,,,,i dont believe he was

lets agree to disagree about this non esential issue

and talk about how we came to understand what we did about ,,,and lets think that there are others much wiser they us ,who believed differently ,,

Sree,

I noted that several on this forum have addressed you as brother.

I am persuaded that you are a female.

Would you please clarify this for the record.

Thanks

Am he, you are right Sree is an Indian name for women though.
Are you by any chance a street preacher from Savannah?

No, I'm not a street preacher from Savannah.

Do I understand you correctly now, that you're saying that you yourself are not a woman, but have chosen to use an Indian name for women on this forum?

Sree wrote,

"If you think what you believe is right then you should be able to explain the verse I have quoted from Hebrews 6-4."

Luke 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.

Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who have been once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

First thing to note is that, if one were to believe that these verses teach the loss of the salvation of a true believer, these verses would undeniably state with such clarity that it would be impossible for such a person as described here to repent and have his salvation restored to him once again.

Since these verses certainly do not teach the loss of the salvation of a true believer,let me go on to prove what they do teach.

There are no definitive terms used which uniquely describe salvation in the above verses(Heb.6:4-6). In other words there are no terms that can only be used to describe a saved person, justification, sanctification, new birth, regeneration, new creature, in Christ, etc. Those above are not spoken of as born again, made holy or made righteous.

None of the descriptions of these persons above are ever used elsewhere in the NT as a definite synonym for a saved person! And this even includes "partakers of the Holy Spirit".

If it were "those who possess the seal of the Spirit" or "those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit", etc, then we would know beyond a shadow of doubt that he was describing genuine believers.

In verses 7,8 the writer describes Rain, Ground and Growth.

The picture he presents is not that of a field that had life and vegetation and then lost it, but of two different kinds of fields, one fruitful and blessed contrasted with another which is barren and burned. If we have sat in the midst of the assembly and experienced light, the Word, the ministry of the Spirit and to some extent been shaped by that environment and then turn away, we are like a field that never had vegetation and which comes into judgment. The rain produced no life.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit in this context does not signify that they had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. If the writer had qualified their "sharing" with any of these designations, then we would conclude they were genuine believers and would have to deal with that problem (in regard to those who fall away). But the writer does not qualify his statement regarding their sharing and neither should we.

"Those", "they", and "them" in verses 4-6 are contrasted with the "beloved" and the "you" in verse 9 below. Note also that he specifies salvation in verse 9 when he addresses the "beloved".

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So these in fact are truly saved and their vegetation will not be "forgotten" by God (vs.10). He believes ''BETTER'' things than fruitlessness & apostasy accompany salvation.

"...he was "persuaded better things" of them, than what he had said of others in Heb.6:4 even such as are expressed in Heb.6:10 he was persuaded they had the true grace of God; whereas the above mentioned persons had only gifts, when in the height of their profession; and the least degree of grace is better than the greatest gifts men can be possessed of: grace makes a man a good man, not gifts; a man may have great gifts and not be a good man; grace is useful to a man's self, gifts are chiefly useful to others; grace makes men fruitful, when gifts leave them barren in the knowledge of Christ; grace is lasting, when gifts fail, and cease and vanish away; grace will abide the fire of persecution, when gifts will not; grace is saving, gifts are not." JG

Eph 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, who is [the] down payment [or, guarantee] of our inheritance, with respect to the redemption of His acquired possession, to the praise of His glory!

The Greek word translated down payment/deposit means "earnest money" and denotes a legally binding obligation to perform. Home buyers often write exception or weasel clauses like "subject to inspection" or "subject to obtaining reasonable financing" into their earnest money agreements so they can escape from their obligation to purchase if things don't work out. Notice that these words in Eph. 1:13-14 contain no such conditions.

The word translated "guarantee" needs no clarification. And for how long is the guarantee in force? "Until the redemption of those who are God's possession."

Heb 10:14-15 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Of this the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us.

Hebrews 10 actually explains the context of Hebrews 6:4-6.

The letter was written to Messianic Jews who had received the gospel but were now being counseled by false teachers (called "Judaizers") not to stop practicing their temple rituals. These Judaizers were trying to combine the practice of the Levitical system with the Gospel. To gentile believers they were teaching the need to first submit to to the rituals of Judaism before embracing Christianity, and to Jewish believers they were teaching the need to stay in Judaism. The Holy Spirit's rebuttal for Gentiles is contained in Acts 15 as well as the letter to the Galatians, and for Jews He had this inspired Letter to the Hebrews delivered.

Sree wrote:
As I was reading these verses today, God directed me to share these words with you. There has been so much thoughts and fights over gifts of the holy spirit.
….
So before fighting on the gifts that you now posses first examine your own life to see whether you have the fruits in you. If there is no fruit then the gifts are useless and will not get you into kingdom of God.

Bro Sree, I believe you are talking about me specifically here (even though you don’t name me. Am I correct?), and I don’t remember arguing with you or anyone (or what you call ‘fighting’) over the gift of tongues or any gift for that matter. What exactly do you perceive to be a “fight”? If you are talking about me, may I ask so I know what I did or said wrong for you to accuse me in front of God and everyone of not having any fruits of the Spirit?

Sree wrote:
And people saying gifts are important to know that you are filled with Holy Spirit there by forcing others who have not received gifts to doubt their infilling of Holy spirit. Also there are frequent posters here who claim to speak in tongues when they pray for others and are proud about it.

Sree wrote:
Also there are frequent posters here who claim to speak in tongues when they pray for others and are proud about it.

And brother, it’s very judgmental of you to imply someone is ‘proud’ when you’ve not seen them operate in that gift AND not even personally acquainted with them to know something about them.

If this wasn't about me and my posts in the other thread about the gift of tongues, let me know!

God bless you brother,
Lisa

Dear Sister,

There is no language problem here, there is a plain misunderstanding. I thought your below quote is a reply to my original post, any one will think the same. I did not think it is your interpretation of Mathew 15. I am sorry. I just thought you are telling me that they did not have fruits because I said the reversal. So I explained to you that I said they only had the gifts and not fruits. Also I thought it was you who said in some post that gifts and fruits are same as the come from the same holy spirit. That is why I explained you the difference. It is not wrong to know the difference!! Anyway I understand the spirit in which you said. As long as you don't search for man of God with only GIFTs as the criteria, I made my point clear. Let Glory be to God.

Matthew chpt 15 regards those who were Never saved and "the fruit" that Jesus is referring to in that Chpt is not the "fruit of the Spirit" of Gal 5 that these people lacked, but "the fruit of obedience to His Word".

I am sorry to call you brother.

Dear Sister Lisa,

Sree wrote:
Also there are frequent posters here who claim to speak in tongues when they pray for others and are proud about it.

You are partially correct. Though I did not want to point fingers at you, I had you in my mind when I wrote this. I have to agree. I am sorry If I hurt you by this. But the other truth is I referred you only in these 2 lines and in nothing else. You were not even in my mind in rest of the lines.

I want to clarify,
1. I never thought you engaged in a fight on gift and never thought anyone in this forum engaged in fight. All I wanted to say that many posters encouraged the thread where a believer wanted to know whether a few men of God (that he listed) spoke in tongues or not.
Instead of encouraging such post we should told him to look for fruits like how Jesus directed us. That is my point.
I apologize for using the word fight, it was not the right word.
2. I never thought that you said gifts are the only sign of infilling of Holy Spirit. Infact you clarified a poster saying you did not mean it.

Now let me tell you what I felt not right about you. Since you shared about your gift of Tongues that you got during baptism openly to all. People started asking you questions whether it is essential for baptism. Though you did not mean to say this, you indirectly made them doubt their baptism of Holy Spirit. This is the reason Paul asked Corinthians not to speak in Tongues or show the gift in public ( excluding the case of an interpreter). But that is just my belief I do not have any scripture to prove you wrong. Also you did not do any crime. I love you in Christ Jesus.

I remember when once our moderator Greg was in my home fellowship asked the question about who all speak in tongues. None of the elders answered the question, though i know very well that one of the brothers spoke in tongues in a prayer meeting and another elder interpreted it.

A kindly reminder to you all to play the ball and not the man (or woman). Speak things only that edify, build-up, bless. Refrain from criticizing other believers if you do not agree with them or think they are in error. Simply walk away if you are becoming flustered and are tempted to prove them wrong. These impulses do not come from the Holy Spirit (whom ironically this thread is about), but are seated in the flesh with pride.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

PaulWest...A kindly reminder to you all to play the ball and not the man (or woman). Speak things only that edify, build-up, bless. Refrain from criticizing other believers if you do not agree with them or think they are in error. Simply walk away if you are becoming flustered and are tempted to prove them wrong. These impulses do not come from the Holy Spirit (whom ironically this thread is about), but are seated in the flesh with pride.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

Paul,I heard a Pastor say one time, "you have never been beat up until your have been beat up by a Christian" as we have seen in "some" of the posts here, it's sad but true.

Spiritual pride is an ugly thing, Bill. Remember, it was the religious crowd who called for Christ's death, not the heathen. Pilate and Herod couldn't care less what happened to him. When I look back on my own walk, the most hurtful, degrading things ever said to me were by religious people, ostensibly rebuking me in the name of God.

The atheists and irreligious will debate, but usually without resorting to the scathing ad hominems like the religious. Spiritual pride is a horrible thing.

Jesus-is-GOD....These false prophets and teachers are always saying that, we who judge their "gifts" and even their "fruit" as counterfeit, always pull the "don't judge" verses at us.

I just recently "past couple days" saw Benny at it again as I was flipping channels, it's almost sickening what some will do, and continue to do without ever even stopping long enough to evaluate their walk. I does bother me, because most of the world that don't know better, think all Christians are like that, and that is why some never consider Jesus, so what these false prophets are doing, it does reflect on us. Prayer is our only real hope for ever changing anything/anyone, we just need to keep these folks at the top of our Prayer list.

Amen! Prayer is the key!

hi, it is very important to you and your walk to do a serious word study on this word judge...krino or 4 other veriations of krino. we are never to krino but we always need to diakrino. both judge.

Sree wrote:
Since you shared about your gift of Tongues that you got during baptism openly to all. People started asking you questions whether it is essential for baptism. Though you did not mean to say this, you indirectly made them doubt their baptism of Holy Spirit.

Sree wrote:
This is the reason Paul asked Corinthians not to speak in Tongues or show the gift in public (excluding the case of an interpreter).

We are allowed to follow the Spirit where He leads, His sheep know His voice! Many times He uses us outside of the church! Praise God for it!

God bless you,
Lisa