The fourth commandment: the Sabbath

I just wanted to ask about the fourth commandment. I was reading over the ten commandments and trying to commit them to memory. The fourth commandment says to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. I looked up what the sabbath meant and it refers to Saturday. Is this commandment just for the Jewish people? I asked a friend of mine who goes to the same church as I do(Baptist) and she told me that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday in the New Testament because that was the resurrection day. It didn't sound right to me that God would change His mind about one of His commandments. I plan on doing more research on this but thought I'd start here and get some input.

Sorry, I meant to post this in Scripture and Doctrine, but I don't know how to move it.

myallinall:

I don't think God changed His mind about the Sabbath at all. His original intent in establishing that commandment as part of the law given to Moses and Israel has not changed. The purpose of the law was to point ultimately to Christ. Remember that scripture says that Jesus was witnessed by the law and the prophets. There is a lot that can be said about this, and a small space here to say it in. The book of Romans, especially chapters 1-8 are a fantastic teaching on the purpose of the law, as is the book of Hebrews. Here are a few scriptures to consider.

Col 2:16-17
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb 8:1-13
(1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
(2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
(3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
(4) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
(5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
(6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
(13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:1-2
(1) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
(2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

The law was a shadow of better things to come. It was like a picture of the reality that God would bring to pass with the coming of Jesus Christ. Here are a few verses specific to the Sabbath.

Mar 2:24-28
(24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
(25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
(26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
(28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Notice here that Jesus says that man was not made or created so that he might keep the sabbath, but rather the sabbath was made for man.

Heb 4:4-12
(4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
(12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Sabbath was instituted as a picture of a rest of faith that we as believers enter into through Christ. We rest from our own labors just as God did from His at the end of creation. This is not a one day a week rest from working, but rather a ceasing forever from laboring to produce righteousness or spiritual fruit from our own efforts. We enter into that rest through faith.

So it is not about Saturday, or Sunday, or any other day of the week. The early church chose to hallow Sunday because it was the traditional day that the Lord rose from the dead. John in writing the Revelation said, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day" The resurrection day is what he was referring to, or as we call it Sunday. But the point is not the day itself. The point is the thing that the "day" pointed to which is the resting from our own labors and the entering into the rest of the Lord, the rest of faith.

I believe it is a good thing to set apart a day to worship and rest. I do not believe it is something that we are required to do as believers. The real is here. We do not need to bother about the shadow any longer. Keep a day. Worship and rest. But remember it is only a shadow of the true Sabbath rest.

Monnkz,

You are a judiazer. You are on a mission to bring God's Chosen under your power. You wish to force the old rituals and ceremonies back upon their tender consciences.

We Christians do not even share the same scriptural foundation with you.

Rather, we know that:

1. The New Testament teaches that Old Covenant rituals are not binding on New Covenant Christians.

We Christians affirm that Old Covenant rituals and ceremonies have nothing to do with New Covenant salvation. Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, now have peace with God simply through our faith in Jesus Christ, Who,

Eph 2:14 ...hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man...

The apostle teaches that the Old Covenant-required rituals and ceremonies that had so long separated Jew from Gentile have now been abolished by God. You say that they are binding on Christians and you imply that we Christians are lost because we take the apostle's teachings at face-value. By doing so, you have re-built a wall of separation between us, and this is an ABOMINATION to God.

We Christians firmly believe the inspired apostles when they teach that in no sense whatsoever are Old Covenant rituals necessary to observe in order to be saved. Rather, both Jews and Gentiles alike are saved by faith in Christ alone.

2. The N.T. teaches that Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the ritual and ceremonial observances of the Old Covenant.

Please consider:

Col 2:10 And ye are COMPLETE in HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 LET NO MAN therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of AN HOLYDAY, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days:

Col 2:17 Which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the BODY is of Christ.

The reasoning of the apostle in this place is that:

These ritual and ceremonial observances were merely symbolic and transitory, like a shadow being cast on a wall by a man's approaching body.

They merely pointed to various aspects of Christ's salvation ministry, (which at the time was yet to come), but which He has now been completely won for us.

Since Christ has indeed already come and has succeeded spectacularly in His mission to "purchase us with His own blood", we naturally set aside the UNNECESSARY rituals that merely pointed to that, and fully embrace Him instead, just as we would naturally set aside our attention from a man's shadow, once the man himself comes into our view...

By faith alone we NOW have Christ and by faith alone we are NOW made COMPLETE in Him. Rituals and ceremonies that once pointed to him have been made obsolete. The writer of Hebrews says plainly that these ritual observances had come to end. They,

Heb 9:10 ...stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Thank God! We have now entered into a new and glorious time where God has not only freed us from these carnal ordinances but has also,

Col 1:13 ...delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

And this,

Rom 14:17 ... kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The New Testament writings clearly affirm that there is a change in God's requirements concerning rituals and ceremonial observances, but if you will not hear the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, perhaps you will you hear the prophets of the LORD instead:

3. The O.T. teaches that God Himself would be the One to alter His Own Word.

When Israel ignored the necessity of true heart-holiness, God Himself became sick of their ceremonies and their keeping of sabbaths:

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul HATETH: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

God found this fault to be so consistent with them as to be detestable. He later spoke through the prophet Jeremiah:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their HEARTS; and will be their God, and THEY shall be my people.

It may be asserted that God's "ethical" requirements can never be changed; that Scripture in the New Testament can never contradict Scripture in the Old Testament. Verses may be quoted to prove that men cannot change God's requirements, and this is good and right and true, but who are you to say that HE Himself CANNOT change His Own requirements? Didn't you notice that "YAH" says in the text: "I" will make a CHANGE regarding my covenant with the House of Israel?

4. Consider further:

The Old Covenant (along with it's ritual and ceremonial observances), has been REPLACED by the New Covenant, and it wasn't any mere man that did this, but GOD Himself :

Heb 10:9 ...HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST [COVENANT], that he may establish the second.

How can you have set yourself up to be a "teacher in Israel" when you don't even know "YAH's" mind? How can you be a true "watchman over Israel" when you are so totally ignorant of His purposes?

God Himself has changed the nature of our covenant with Him. He has changed the requirements and He has revealed a truly "new and living way." And truly, "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY!" Through Christ alone we have,

Heb 10:19 ... boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20 By a NEW and LIVING WAY, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The New Covenant is the "NEW WAY", but our knowledge of it is not new. It had already been heralded by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and its fulfillment has been fully explained to us by the apostles. Truly we are,

Eph 2:20 ... built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets!

Consequently, we Christians know with the fullest assurance that:

5. The Bible says that the observing or not observing of individual holy days is not a “salvation issue”:

We Christians can take the simple teachings of the apostles at face-value:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth ONE DAY above another: another esteemeth EVERY DAY alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Col 2:16 LET NO MAN THEREFORE JUDGE YOU.

Even so, LORD JESUS. Amen.

May God bless the TRUE "Israel of God."
Doug.

Jesus is the Sabbath; He is our rest.

If we are in Jesus, we are in the sabbath (rest) (keeping it). Six days shall you labour, but on the seventh you shall rest and not do any work in it. We who are in Jesus have ceased from our works, that is to say our sin. ...we have entered into our rest, who is Jesus.

In Jesus He took away our sins and nailed them to the cross, so that God does not see our sins anymore. And where there is no sin, the righteousness that the Law of God requires is fulfilled. Thus it is written that Jesus came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. Jesus is the Sabbath! He is our Rest (freedom from sin)!!!

I stand not on my own righteousness or good works, but on the righteousness which comes by faith in the finished work of Christ. In Christ I have no sin because He took my sins away and nailed them to the cross, and where there is no sin, ALL the righteousness that the law of God requires is fufilled...thus is explained the righteousness by faith and Christ fulfilling the law.

How comes this righteousness? is by works? Is it by faith? Yes it is by faith, ...I am one of the elect of God and I know it, having repented of my sins and turned away from them, and turned to the God of my salvation with a pure and undefiled heart. But He called me by election. I am grateful that I know Him and that my name is written down in heaven.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed DO ENTER THAT REST... Hebrews 4:1-3

We who have believed, do enter into that rest (freedom from sin) who is Jesus, who is our rest (Sabbath).
The Sabbath (4th commandment) was a shadow and fore-type of what/who was to come who is Jesus.

To those, who through legalistic prose, intend to bring men into bondage, saying we must observe Holy Days and observe abstinence of certain types of meats which the Lord created to be received with thanksgiving, who say a woman must never cut her hair and wear and to always wear a hat, of meats and drinks...to those of you who would put a stumbling block in your brothers way saying we must keep the Law of Moses to be saved.

Hear me:

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

He who observes the day (Sabbath), observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.

For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?

For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. Romans 14:4-13

Heed the words of the Apostles:

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” — to whom we gave no such commandment — it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell. Acts 15:24-29

Nothing mentioned by them about observing Holy Days/Sabbaths...because they knew and understood that JESUS IS THE SABBATH...and we are in Him and He in us and we keep the Sabbath all 7 days, not just one day a week.

Isaiah 66:23  And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

If i see this correctly, there are just two parties in the millennium, everyone that is alive that will come to worship before the Lord from one sabbath to another, and on the other side the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him.

If any good sounding wall of words is not compatible with that, it's because it's not sound scriptural truth. So I have to stick with what's written, not with what could be almost right.

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, he is not the sabbath. Would he be the sabbath then Isaiah 66:23 would be totally wrong. Small but important step in direction to understand the difference between Bible and "christaneese".

Here's an excellent article regarding whether Christians are bound by moral law to observe a Sabbath Day:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/downloads/sabbath_syllogism_2006.pdf

This is a powerful exegete of Scripture and well worth the time is takes to read and study.

Grace and peace,
Matthew

Zechariah 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

---

Another one of these prophecies that state that the heathen cannot bring their own traditions, just because they got tempted to regard them as fitting. Because the Lord is King, the one that does not change, even to the point to keep his own holy days. Not sure what the 'spirtitually wise in their own eyes' have to say to that. Just when they labled these ceremonies as 'jewish, old covenant or ceremonial law' the King himself changes all that for them. And this is just a few short years away from today, some people say, what makes me wonder who of the religious folks will be able to adjust that fast, considering most of the thinking in this regard basically will have to change, or be obsolete in a heartbeat. At the moment i'm thinking, if one's ideas regarding that isn't future compatible, we still can drop it now while it's still considered only an comprehension error, not yet an offence to the Lord. Another example of His grace, as in 'time to learn to see things His way, not in the way of the ones erred before us'.

Right now Jesus would have a very hard time explaining His 'jewish, old covenant or ceremonial law' fav. likes of holy days and feasts to a 'spiritually much advanced' crowd that would rebuke Him for all his 'backwardness' and stuck on legalistic things that are "nailed to the cross".
One reason most people never read the prophets, they are just too confusing, just when you thought you have this old-new covenant thing sorted :-)

Hi a-servant,

You may certainly keep whatever days or ceremonies you wish. However, other true believers in the Lord Jesus do not have to follow you in doing so, per the Scriptures in my previous post above.

Mere eschatological interpretations about end-times NEVER contradict the plain teachings of the apostles.

The Good Lord may do whatever He wants in some future age, but the apostles already told us plainly what the requirements are for us in this one.

I hope this is helpful to the reader.

God bless you all.
Doug

Dear a servant,

Did you go up to Jerusalem this Year? Did you go the year before? Will you be going up next year? You believe the observance of a Sabbath day is literal, and quote a text from Zechariah as support. I simply ask you is going up to Jerusalem to be taken literally?

You have already answered by your actions. You either have your receipt from your last trip or not. You are either saving up for your next trip or you are not. Either way your actions clearly demonstrate whether you take "going up to Jerusalem" literally or not.

The question then becomes do you interpret the sabbath command in the same way as you do the Feast of Tabernacles? When you give a scripture as a proof text, it should not be one that demonstrates your own actions contradict your own position.

makrothumia

" I simply ask you is going up to Jerusalem to be taken literally?"

This sounds like a question if I should interpret Scripture or just read it, and take a mental note regarding the near future. I prefer to just read it, because otherwise it's of absolute no use to me. Your reasoning is premature, you seem to think that whatever you may be suggesting and implying is of higher truth than that's what's written. On that basis you won't learn anything new, you just keep walking in your own mind of pretext.

No wonder people come up with stuff like "Jesus is the sabbath" or "I celebrate sabbath every day" - it's all non-biblical gibberish created out of a void of understanding that reminds me very much of the way the pretrib rapture deception is spread, i.e. "you should read this article..." -- because if you just read the Bible, it's simply not there. And the ones opposing themselves to the truth do not know that they are opposing themselves, thinking they are more spiritual by holding to a secret truth not literally displayed in the Bible. I've been there myself, so I know firsthand of its blinding power. But there's nothing Jesus cannot heal :-)

I was hoping it would not be difficult for you to see that you interpret the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles much in the same way you have difficulty with others interpreting keeping the Sabbath.

I readily admit to interpreting both in a spiritual way. I believe this is at least consistent even if in error. I was simply hoping that you and others who protest this as unsound, would deal honestly with what appears to be your same practice when it comes to the keeping of the other feasts. I have not found anyone who keeps them literally according to the letter, actually in Jerusalem. I do not believe they are wrong for not doing so. I simply see them interpreting these feasts spiritually while protesting against those who choose to keep the Sabbath in the same way those who protest keep the rest of the required feasts.

If you fail to see the contradiction and inconsistency, I am hoping others will. That was my aim and I hope it will be accomplished. I would welcome your own explanation of how you have reconciled what seems to be an inconsistency at least to me. I believe it would serve others better than assuming others who differ from you are opposed to the truth when they are quite willing to discuss it.

No wonder people come up with stuff like "Jesus is the sabbath" or "I celebrate sabbath every day" - it's all non-biblical gibberish

a servant.

I am really in no mood to argue with 7th day adventist types. But just so you know...Jesus is THAT rest that we are to enter into.

Read Matthew 11:28 for evidence of this.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Matthew%2011:28&version=NKJV

For more scripture on Jesus being that rest...the Sabbath rest, also read http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4&version=NKJV

further...

Jesus took away all my sins, and they are no more.

It is an absolute certain truth that where there is no sin, the law of God CANNOT condemn.

We are the recipients of His mercy and grace, not of wages. The difference is being Born-Again and Phariseeism, which is the behavior of a sanctimonious and a self-righteous person. The difference between relationship and an absolute religious compulsion.

But just so you know, righteousness before God has already been purchased for us, it's not something you can earn for yourself.

Righteous living is something that we do because we are born of the Holy Spirit, and we submit ourselves in obedience to the Holy Spirit, who by the Grace of our Father in heaven, leads us into holy living, a work not of compulsion but of love that has been birthed in our hearts.

Paul said in Philippians 3:6-8: “concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ”

The law of God requires works of righteousness, so why would Paul discard his righteousness in the law...(works in the Law) if he were so perfect in it?

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

How is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus work to bring righteousness anyway?

The answer is very simple actually, it is because Jesus took away ALL my sins forever, and in the absence of sin the Law is fulfilled.

So, Here is a question:

If a person were completely sin free in their life (because Jesus washed away the sins), would the righteousness or holiness that the Law of God requires be fulfilled?

The answer is yes, because in the absence of sin the law is fulfilled!

So...if Jesus took away all of my sins after repentance and giving my life to Him, and I am blameless before God and sin free, do I fulfill the righteousness or holiness that the law of God requires?

The answer is yes; I fulfill the righteousness that the law of God requires because I have no sin in Jesus...because Jesus took and washed away my sins and nailed them to the cross! ...I am therefore sin free before God and fulfill ALL the righteousness that the law God requires. This is what is meant by the righteousness by faith and NOT by works!!!

So then the righteousness that the Law of God requires, is fulfilled in every single person who comes to Christ Jesus. This is what it means that Christ is the end of the law and that He fulfilled the law. This is the righteousness which is by faith, and not by the works of the Law of God.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

How is the Law established?

The Law is established because there is no more sin to deal with, because Jesus took the sin away, and in the absence of sin the Law is Fulfilled, ...yes it is established!

This is the righteousness that is by faith, and NOT by the works of the Law.

Romans 5: 1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The very reason that Christ came into the world was so that He could free us from sin and the consequences of sin, and more then that, so that we could become a new creation in Christ Jesus. And in the absence of sin, which is through the cross of Christ, the Law is fulfilled.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about Holiness and Holy Living....hasn't the Lord said you must be Holy for I am Holy?

Holiness becomes you...

God truly wants the repentance of man, for man to make a volitional choice for Him...to openly repent before Him and to follow Him, to Call upon Him...

He wants good works towards Him based on a loving personal relationship from the heart, and not on good works based on a reliance of oneself… or in ones' ability to live holy by following a given set of rules – and yes there is a difference.

Yes, there are moral rules and guidelines to follow and understand as given to us in the Holy Bible, but they are only to instruct me in the ways of righteousness and holiness AS I seek Him inwardly, and personally ...and they teach me of the nature of Jesus.

The scriptures give me an understanding of the nature of Him who has called me out of this world to be His son, to a new life in Him which is hidden in Christ Jesus - the Holy Spirit bears witness to this truth.

His good works in me (holiness) comes, not based on my own understanding of what true holiness is, but rather based on the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in my life since I accepted Him, and it is in my yielding to Him in all things in obedience, and not on my adherence to or on reliance of myself to seek His favour by doing good works (what I perceive as being holiness). It's not what I can do, it's what He does, and can do through me.

Because I love Him in the very pit of my soul, and am truly born of Him, I will seek out those things that always please Him, I will hate the things that He hates, and I will love the things that He loves...if only that I may have just one moment, just one moment in this life that I may truly glorify Him in this earthly body…and this I will do as His Holy Spirit who is within me permits, and teaches me all things.

Does this mean that I will never make a mistake and never sin again? ...no it does not. I hope that I never sin again, but if I do, I know I have an advocate with the Father who is Jesus Christ the righteous. I know that if I acknowledge my sins before God, that He is faithful and just to forgive me and to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness. And I dare say to anyone that says I need to have good works in order to be forgiven, nothing but the precious blood of the Lamb can erase sins.

The bible teaches me that: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. Galatians 6:15

Hence and therefore my salvation is not based upon me believing that my good works toward Him (personal holiness) will save me (or even merit me any favor at all), but rather on a TOTAL surrender of my life to Him, and upon a reliance on Him for my holiness and righteousness, that He who has begun a good work in me will complete it until the very day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

I just need only to yield to Him, I just need only to yield to Him and say yes Lord Jesus, yes Lord...have your way in me and be glorified in me, let me be obedient to you through your Holy Spirit.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Those who are truly born of the Spirit of God and are led by Him will indeed mortify sin in their lives, whose hearts are right with God.

makrothumia, keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles will be a yearly event, and as the word says, people from the nations or representatives of them will be required to come to Jerusalem for that event. That's all there is to it. Everyone can see it, except people that filter words while the seem to read it with personal objections and reasonings. Most of which reminds me of, "has God really said that? He couldn't actually have meant it, because..... " If you stumble over such litte things, how can you really understand anything that is written when you always bounce it against what you think is practical?

Earendel, you're completely overthinking this , it 's really much more simple in reality. Sabbath, the weekly one is a pre-law perpetual covenant with Israel. This one will never end. (It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever - Exodus 31:17) When it became law it was just a refresher, indicated by "remember...". It's pre-law and after-law, regardless of what one thinks is written on our hearts as part of the new covenant.

And everyone crafted in will be part of it by faith. All gentiles not grafted in yet shouldn't worry about it until they get interested from the heart to know what exactly they are grafted into. By unction in the spirt from the Spirit, you really cannot learn that from other people. Now if one thinks they are spiritual Israel but ignore the everlating covenants you haven't sorted that one out yet, and 'for ever' has not come to you yet in it's full meaning.

You are confusing this with the rest we enter in Jesus, these two are not identical. That is part of the attempt to associate these two together to eliminate the first. It does take some greater ability to differentiate than "7th day adventist types" classification to cut through this vain attempt , maybe someone you already know like the expats at ATN forum can explain it very nicely to you, they know both sides of the understanding, especilaly the ones living over there in the middle east.

The weekly Sabbath will remain for ever, unlike the birthday of Tammuz that will come to an end. We are grafted into a group of God's people that pre-existed already before us, therefore we cannot bring our feasts and traditions. Neither will the Father cancel His feasts because of the gentiles grafted in at a later point, neither will there be two camps in the kingdom with different celebrations. This is all carnal nonsense to suggest so, thinking the soon-to-be bretheren will be grafted into AOG-type churches celebrating with us Christ mass together, how can anybody be so bound to the carnal mind to even think that?

We need to look at the roots of God dealing with His people. There are some things that will remain, going back to creation and will never change. Some covenants are meant to last for ever, Sabbath is one of these everlasting ones, celebrating the Creator, and we stop doing our own things for a day. But I found one cannot really learn that from other people, it's by revelation on an unexpecting day you suddenly see the whole picture all at once and understand the significance of it, and the reason why it seems such a small matter, yet fought over by the biggest institutions like the Pope's church. He understands the significance of it, that's why they changed it to Sunday. And I have to agree with him at least on this one thing, it's an important matter to God, otherwise He wouldn't have made it a perpetual covenant. But that's just the beginning,it has a role to play in two important matters, one is a sign between God and His people, the other has to do with a time He chooses to sanctify His people. This is something to discuss at a time and place where the basic stumbling blocks are overcome.

a servant,

Romans 14:4-13 says:

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

He who observes the day (Sabbath), observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.

For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?

For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

```
Further,

It is okay if you want to observe the Saturday Sabbath a servant, but don't make it a law upon Christians, whether Jew or Gentile believer and say you must do this to be saved and here's why.

Question: "How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?"

Answer: The key to understanding how Jesus is our Sabbath rest is the Hebrew word sabat, which means “to rest or stop or cease from work.” The origin of the Sabbath goes back to Creation. After creating the heavens and the earth in six days, God “rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made” (Genesis 2:2).

This doesn’t mean that God was tired and needed a rest. We know that God is omnipotent, literally “all-powerful.” He has all the power in the universe, He never tires, and His most arduous expenditure of energy does not diminish His power one bit. So, what does it mean that God rested on the seventh day? Simply that He stopped what He was doing. He ceased from His labors. This is important in understanding the establishment of the Sabbath day and the role of Christ as our Sabbath rest.

God used the example of His resting on the seventh day of Creation to establish the principle of the Sabbath day rest for His people. In Exodus 20:8-11 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15, God gave the Israelites the fourth of His Ten Commandments. They were to “remember” the Sabbath day and “keep it holy.”

One day out of every seven, they were to rest from their labors and give the same day of rest to their servants and animals. This was not just a physical rest, but a cessation of laboring. Whatever work they were engaged in was to stop for a full day each week. The Sabbath day was established so the people would rest from their labors, only to begin again after a one-day rest.

The various elements of the Sabbath symbolized the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people.

Once again the example of resting from our labors comes into play. With the establishment of the Old Testament Law, the Jews were constantly “laboring” to make themselves acceptable to God. Their labors included trying to obey a myriad of do’s and don’ts of the ceremonial law, the Temple law, the civil law, etc. Of course they couldn’t possibly keep all those laws, so God provided an array of sin offerings and sacrifices so they could come to Him for forgiveness and restore fellowship with Him, but only temporarily.

Just as they began their physical labors after a one-day rest, so, too, did they have to continue to offer sacrifices. Hebrews 10:1 tells us that the law “can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.”

But these sacrifices were offered in anticipation of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ on the cross, who ”after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God” (Hebrews 10:12).

Just as He rested after performing the ultimate sacrifice, He sat down and rested—ceased from His labor of atonement because there was nothing more to be done, ever. Because of what He did, we no longer have to “labor” in law-keeping in order to be justified in the sight of God. Jesus was sent so that we might rest in God and in what He has provided.

Another element of the Sabbath day rest which God instituted as a foreshadowing of our complete rest in Christ is that He blessed it, sanctified it, and made it holy. Here again we see the symbol of Christ as our Sabbath rest—the holy, perfect Son of God who sanctifies and makes holy all who believe in Him. God sanctified Christ, just as He sanctified the Sabbath day, and sent Him into the world (John 10:36) to be our sacrifice for sin. In Him we find complete rest from the labors of our self-effort, because He alone is holy and righteous. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). We can now cease from our spiritual labors and rest in Him, not just one day a week, but always.

Jesus can be our Sabbath rest in part because He is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8). As God incarnate, He decides the true meaning of the Sabbath because He created it, and He is our Sabbath rest in the flesh.

When the Pharisees criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath, Jesus reminded them that even they, sinful as they were, would not hesitate to pull a sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. Because He came to seek and save His sheep who would hear His voice (John 10:3,27) and enter into the Sabbath rest He provided by paying for their sins, He could break the Sabbath rules.

He told the Pharisees that people are more important than sheep and the salvation He provided was more important than rules. By saying, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was restating the principle that the Sabbath rest was instituted to relieve man of his labors, just as He came to relieve us of our attempting to achieve salvation by our works.

We no longer rest for only one day, but forever cease our laboring to attain God’s favor.

Jesus is our rest from works now, just as He is the door to heaven, where we will rest in Him forever.

Hebrews 4 is the definitive passage regarding Jesus as our Sabbath rest.

The writer to the Hebrews exhorts his readers to “enter in” to the Sabbath rest provided by Christ. After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against Jehovah in the wilderness.

Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs them—and us—not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ.

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience” (Hebrews 4:9-11).

There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus.

He alone satisfies the requirements of the Law, and He alone provides the sacrifice that atones for sin.

He is God’s plan for us to cease from the labor of our own works.

We dare not reject this one-and-only Way of salvation (John 14:6).

God’s reaction to those who choose to reject His plan is seen in Numbers 15. A man was found gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, in spite of God’s plain commandment to cease from all labor on the Sabbath. This transgression was a known and willful sin, done with unblushing boldness in broad daylight, in open defiance of the divine authority. “And Jehovah said to Moses, ‘The man shall surely be put to death’” (v. 35). So it will be to all who reject God’s provision for our Sabbath rest in Christ. “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3).

borrowed from: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html

btw I knew this before, having never had a human teacher on this subject, but being directly taught by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you a servant for continuing to reply. This does help me see a measure of consistency in your position. I noticed that you said "will" go up as in the future. Would I be correct in assuming that you do not go up now because there is no physical temple in Jerusalem?

Would you further explain how you keep these feast now? How did you keep Pasach this year? How did you keep the feast of Tabernacles? What are you waiting for before you go up to Jerusalem yourself? Are there other parts of the Law that you also believe you are not obligated to keep literally today, but will in the future based upon some change?

I hope you recognize that there are those like myself who have real questions about how you work through the difficulty how you decide which parts of the law you adhere to today, and on what biblical basis you have reached your decision that others you will do in the future but are not obligated to do now.

All the men in Israel are to appear before the Lord, three times a year. You know this already. Am I to assume you do not believe that the present day Jerusalem is the place where He has caused His name to dwell? Do you believe that His name is dwelling there now or are you waiting for His temple to be rebuilt so His name can begin to dwell there again? From your replies about simply taking scripture as it is written, I am assuming you have reasons that would cause you to be waiting for some future event before you act according to what is simply written. I am interested in hearing how you have worked through this decision process.

Thank you for your time in responding.

Earendel, Thank you for posting that explanation. I get it! The light bulb just came on. :)

"There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus."

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

I'm sorry, i cannot take your word for it Earendel, I know you mean good, but i still have to stick with the fullness of scripture. I fully understood your point the first time, yet it's still not the full story. Try to concentrate now for a minute, and ask the Lord why the above scripture does not fit in with your theology. Both of you, Isaiah and Earendel do not agree. Why not?

makrothumia, did Jesus already come back the second time? You just now discovered these are future prophecies? Great.

It's really been an interesting topic. But beloved a servant you appear to love the prophets more than the apostles. Assuming someone were to receive only the letter by apostle Paul to the Romans and Galatians, and another person were to receive the entire Old testament, who would you say received fuller revelation? Please, I do not mean to undermine the prophets but I really want to point out that their teachings are not really complete without the light of the New testament, so if you agree with me on this, do you mind buttressing your stand on the Sabbath with any new testament passage?
Love you, a servant.

"love the prophets more than the apostles" hahaha it may appear to you so my child of grace, but it's certainly not the case in actual reality. But you can use the future to correct the present, should it be required to do so.

Tell me one thing. Who is the Lord speaking through Isaiah that says "thus saith the LORD". Can you identify His name? Can you hear his voice? Who is it that says that people will come to worship before him in a time in the future, that is certainly not OT time, just because it was spoken and received what we call OT time.

Then once you know who it is that is speaking, why does he not identify himself as the sabbath, but identifies the sabbath as a time identification of a day or days? That one is easy....because it always was a day, and always will be a day, and not a person. Can you believe that person when he speaks, that is the real question.

P.S. Just before He comes back there will be great tribulation as we know. This actually will happen very soon, and this is the situation then when Jesus says : " But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:20

---

One could think in such a terrible tribulation the world has never seen before the last thing one would care about is non essentials as keeping the sabbath day. Yes that sounds right, but Jesus says the exact opposite to common logic, that's why He is the Lord, and we are not. We cannot even differentiate between a day and our Lord, what would classify us as illiterate, or worse, having a different spirit that convinced us that it is more spiritual to disobey the Lord than to just do what he says. You remember the 'garden incident' that had this huge 6000 years of consequences. It will happen again a final time, it's a test where someone else will ask us to take his sign, or mark. It will be the anti-christ, whispering with a convincing voice imitating our Lord. Will you then be able to identify His voice? Pray for that my dear.

I would rest my case on two scriptures: Acts 15:28, 29, 31 and Colossians 2:16. Do sincerely send that consolation to others if you can. Love you.

This topic is posted here a lot. Everyone seems to have a point to prove. I worship God everyday so that rules out only worshiping on a sabbath. Then that makes the sabbath day a day to lay around and rest? Isn't that what you are saying?

One must be careful when they live under the New Covenant not to desire to go back to the Old Covenant. In EX 34:28 we see the 10 commandments are called the old covenant. The Sabbath was given to all the Israelites standing there. They were a nation. Laws were being arranged for them to live under and be blessed.

When you take the bread and wine you are saying you are under the new covenant. And you are saying you are with Christ all the way. From that point on our mind should be focused on things above, after all we DIED with him in baptism.

What most people forget is that the we are aliens in this world we live in. The old world government we used to be involved in is not ours anymore. We are not to entangle ourselves with the government of earth as we are now citizens of heaven. As Pau said, "all things were lawful for him, but not expedient.."

God knows we are all sinners. He has made reconciliation possible for all to come to Christ; not for all to come to the Levitical system. There is no eternal hope in keeping the old package of laws. We need Christ.

In 1 Timothy 1:9 we read where the law is not made for a righteous man. Hasn't Jesus made us righteous?

In Hebrew 8:9 we read where a new covenant was promised and it was NOT like the old one made to their fathers.

Christ has torn down the wall. The Jew, Greek, the gentile. None can say "because I keep... I am better"

In Matthew 25:31 when Jesus divides the sheep and goats, He's not going to say, "You Baptists go on in" or any other group. He'a looking at how we love one another in the body.
I Cor 13 comes to mind. Though I have all knowledge or am have a theology degree or whatever; IF I do not have love...

Trying to bring OT into NT is in error. I used to be a sabbath keeper.

I had to add an extra thought. In Matthew 5:16 we see Jesus saying to let your good works be seen. I'm sure he would like to add a little more today, "...and not your good arguments ... or your new version of his written word"

In Ephesians 2: 8-9 we are saved by grace... man is not justified by the law..

No amount of commandment keeping will add anything to what Christ has done. No amount of commandment keeping will save you. The 10 commandments had to do with earthly living. That's what the name it and claim preachers teach. It's a get rich type gospel. Be sure to send it to them!

Christ brought a heavenly message.
It had nothing to do with lands and money. The gospel of the kingdom was a heavenly calling, one of entering the Kingdom of God.

The Pharisees had good arguments. Their doctrine was perfect. Their purity wasn't. They always were trying to lay a trap for Jesus. It's easy to become a Pharisee and not even see it. Satan is the master of deception.

We shouldn't be trying to trap each other on the forum. There is an accuser who calls out our name every day to our Father, saying "Hey did you see him do this.." None of us should have any darkness living in us. God is light.

Imagine the scene, Here it is: Jesus is about to be crucified and all these people with their good arguments are in the temple right before, singing, clapping, tithing and whatever, and no one stood with Christ. One can be deceived. They were. I was once too...

Dear members of Sermon Index, when a member raises a topic that doesn't conform to your beliefs, let's not conclude that those members are on some secret mission to deceive or Judaizers, Pharisees or whatever derogatory names we can come up with, instead, we can search the scriptures on the matter without any preconceived notions and respond with kindness.

This is the same faulty argument presented mostly by Seventh Day Adventists that we have seen here on SI several times in the past. It seeks to confuse the truth and disarm the skeptic by preying on a tender conscience. It seeks to gain acceptance of wrong views by promoting the desire in the hearer to avoid conflict. While it is true that the Christian should avoid strife and division it is equally true that they should not submit, even for a moment, to anything contrary to the truth of the gospel.

After all, Rev 12:9 plainly says that we are all deceived at this time. We can all be wrong. Just a thought.

Yes, a thought, but not a very good one; if we apply the logic which you have applied from Rev 12:9 to your own arguments in this thread then we can safely consider your arguments invalid. You need to find a better argument.

In Christ,

Ron

hi, this subject is surely not one to argue about... the jews have celebrated the sabbath from friday sundown to saturday sundown for milleneums and yet disobey the sabbath year laws and year of jubilee laws. arguements could be made that the 7th day of creation was the first day for man and that man should rest on the first day. as one who attended a messianic fellowship for years i enjoyed the candle lighting cantors and prayers at friday night service and very few of the sabbath protagonist practice this wonderful tradition.for the jew keeping the sabbath means not driving your car or even sweating doing anything on this day,that is why they lived in ghettos around the shoul so it would be an easy walk.if you are convinced by God to keep a day do so but let others have a chance to be told of God this revelation on their own.jimp a sideline to this is in knowing a priest who heard thousands of confessions over many years say he has never heard a person confess that they ever coveted anything. that is why the law is summed up in loving God and loving your neighbor.

This topic grieves me. Ever since I have been on SI it comes up periodically and a heated discussion follows.

One camp will say Sabbath keeping is essential for salvation and the other says New Covenant Christians are free to ignore Sabbath keeping, or the fourth commandment, and will criticize any who do observe it. From my perspective both are wrong.

Sabbath keeping has its origins at the creation when God sanctified the seventh day after working six days. God sanctified (Gen. 2:3) only ONE day, not six. This act predates the giving of the ten commandments by 3000(?) years. This does not mean the ten commandments were not operational before then, it just means God did not write it down in stone until he gave them to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Let me illustrate: it was sin for Cain to kill Abel - and how did Abel know that? At the time of the flood people got very wicked and God judged them. How did they know they were wicked? God will not judge people who are innocent...They knew but by what source we are not told.

Sabbath keeping was a day when people refrained from doing their own thing and focused on God. The Pharisees later came on the scene and added their own laws to God's and made it more difficult then God intended. We read in Acts how the early church met on the LORD's Day, the first day of the week, replacing the Sabbath, although in reality it is a Sabbath because it was a day set aside in honor of Jesus' resurrection. Today those of us who observe the LORD's Day do so in honor of Jesus' resurrection on the first day of the week.

This was a common practice for most of the Christian era until in recent years. Apostasy invaded the church in recent years like a tsunami and with it came sharp criticism of observing the LORD's Day - do not know why unless it is because people want to engage in entertainment, or sports instead. The result of not giving God's his honor has resulted in people pursuing a life filled with pleasure. Ignoring 'Sabbath keeping' gives people more time to pursue pleasurable activities - it is big business. And God gets short shafted.

Those of us who observe the LORD's Day do it by attending worship services, hosting friends for lunch in our homes, visiting those in the community that are house-bound, and take a long nap - getting physically rested up for the upcoming week.

We do work on the LORD's day but only what is essential for life. If an ox falls in the ditch, he is retrieved. If a tornado roars through on a Sunday morning, that morning is spent rendering assistance to the victims. If we hear an hurricane is going to blow in on a Monday or Tuesday and there are ripe crops in the field needing to be harvested, the harvesters will run as long as possible to get the grain in. The incidents just noted have happened to our community here in Mississippi. Nobody believed it was sin to render assistance nor did anyone feel guilt for harvesting a ripe crop knowing full well this storm will destroy it unless it is brought in.

Keeping the LORD's Day is done in honor of Him who did so much for us. Since this is the case why do we want to begrudge him one day from our week?

This is my testimony - just thought I would share it AND I do not want to debate it.

Dear Moonkz,

Just as clearly as the Seventh day Sabbath was never replaced to Sunday, the commandment to the nation Israel was NEVER spoken to any Gentile nation.

Neither the Sabbath nor circumcision was ever spoken by Yawheh to the Gentiles in any form. Not even Jesus would change one "jot" or "tittle" of the Hebrew to do what you are attempting to do.

You are changing the covenant bewteen Yahweh and the sons of Israel and "adding to it". You have to add many jots and tittle to do so.

Our covenant is with the "seed of Abraham" and it is a covenant not of Law - but of faith. There is only one commandment which we must keep and that fulfills the entire Law and the prophets.

We have a NEW commandment, a NEW covenant, the covenant not by "works of Law", but "works of faith".

I know you are sincere, but by attempting to place upon a "non- covenant" people the terms Yahweh limited to the "sons of Israel" - you are transgressing the Law. You are the one changing the "jots" and "tittles".

Here is an example of a difficult place you are in if you will be honest with yourself. You know that circumcision is in the Law and you know that NO gentile is to be required to be circumcised. To attempt to force a gentile to circumcise themself is to "preach another gospel" and those who do will be accursed.

Yet, the Sabbath accorcing to Exodus 31:12-17 is a sign "between ME AND YOU" speaking of Yahweh and the Israelites. Verse 14 - "Observe My Sabbath, because it is holy to YOU." Monnkz would CHANGE the "jots" and "tittles" to make the Sabbath holy to "ALL". You transgress the commands of God in doing so. Verse 16 - "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant."
Monnkz is continually writing here on SI - EVERYONE is to observe the Sabbath" Monnkz is changing the "jots" and "tittle" of the Law to fit his own views. Yahweh limited the command to observe the Sabbath to the sons of Israel, but Monnkz expands it to apply it to ALL. Who is the real one violating the commandment. Monnkz is.

makrothumia

"the Seventh day Sabbath was never ever replaced to Sunday. There is nowhere in scripture that ordains Sunday worship, nowhere. I hate to burst your bubble but the Savior was not resurrected on Sunday."

Actually Monnkz, scripture does say that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Matthew 28:1-6.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Mark 16:9

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Monnkz, the first day of the week is actually a recurring and important theme in the new testament.

Mattthew 28:1
Mark 16:2,9
Luke 24:1
John 20:1,19
Acts 20:7 (This verse actually talks about Paul preaching and having church on Sunday, the church came together to break bread)
1 Corinthians 16:2

There is no mention in the new testament after the church was started, of observing the sabbath as a holy day.

In fact read this verse:

Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Colossians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Romans 14:5-6

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.2 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Monnkz, I write this so that hopefully you will stop spreading erroneous ideas.

Romans 14:5-6

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.2 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The problem with this thread is that most of them who tried to argue with Monnkz have seen him as a legalist, instead of seeing him as a Believer who considers one day as special. There is nothing wrong with Monnkz considering one day special, I found him more humble than many who tried to argue with him saying he is trying to work his salvation. It is these theologians who get offended because Monnkz is quoting something against their holy theology.
Let us respect his faith and move away. The one who is doing the will of God all 7 days is in a much higher standard than the one who is doing it only 1 day a week. He who knows this truth will not even try to reduce his standard.
If at all Brother Monnkz is judging us based on his faith then he will give an account of it. We who are in higher standard let us not judge him and lower our self.

I don't get your point?

I agree that it said he has risen? Of course he has!

Mark 16:9

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Oh boy... the Grace killers have arrived.

by martyr
How are we saved? By faith in Jesus or keeping the Sabbath?

***Just my sense of humor people... try to stay calm!!

God bless us all!
Lisa

In Genesis God proclaimed (to the world) the seventh day as holy but gave no commandment there to keep the sabbath in the way the jews are commanded in the law. Its conspicuously missing because if he was to give a commandment regarding this matter to the whole world he would have to give it here or to Noah after the flood, and again it is missing from the text at the end of Genesis 8. Did the Catholic's delete that passage? No!

The sabbath is a picture of the rest we are to enter in Christ, resting from working to earn salvation through law.
God gave the commandment to the Israelites that if any man did work on the sabbath, in direct contradiction to the law, he was to be put to death. This occured in Numbers 15 and the man was put to death. This is a wonderful picture of salvation through rest in Jesus Christ. All who have entered the rest from working for salvation enjoy eternal life in Jesus but those who think that they can earn salvation by keeping laws will perish. Those who refuse that rest offered, who, knowing the command to rest from your works, yet continue in them will find they have nothing but filthy rags at the end of their life to present to God.

Enter the rest in Jesus Christ! Cease from your labours and find salvation in His life and works, not in your own.

Colossians 2 spiritualizes circumcision as having been performed on the hearts of believers. This is the concept that is given for the sabbath in Hebrews 4 and shows plainly, without jumping through hoops theologically, that we, as believers have entered into the rest, the only rest, that we need to keep.

to those who believe they must keep the sabbath, you haven't given scripture yet from the NT to back up your belief. God is the author of the whole bible certainly, but the OT is not His completed revelation. You must show from the NT that believers, from jew or gentile background, must and did keep the sabbath.

By all means keep the day if you want to 'unto the Lord'.

Lloyd

by Monnkz on 2011/11/21 13:55:03

How are we saved? By faith in Jesus or keeping the Sabbat?

You got to be kidding me! Simple answer.

Matthew 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

Check out the Savior's answer in verse 17

...If you want to enter life, , OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.

This is our Savior doing the speaking, don't argue with me, argue with him at your own risk

Monnkz, do you set aside the whole NT to twist this scripture to your doctrine? Jesus wasn't saying that the man could be saved by keeping the commandments, that goes against the whole of Romans and every other NT truth. He, THE SAVIOUR, was showing the man his sinfulness, everyone knows that. Why do you think He is called Saviour? He came to save us who were without strength, unable to save ourselves.

Jhn 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Do you really believe you must keep the commandments in order to be saved? Haven't you read Romans and Galatians?

Lloyd

Monnkz has succeeded in getting people to argue with him some more. Everyone hasn't figured out who he is and what exactly he believes yet.

He believes WE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED and KEEP THE written LAW OF MOSES IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.

He has neither lot nor part in the ministry, nor this forum. All who read these words:

BEWARE of MONNKZ.

Doug

Let's see now.

6 pages long. 60 posts counting mine. Well over 1500 page views...and NO ONE has changed their position on anything.

Surely its time to shoot this thread and let it die. Surely this now reaches the level of "vain arguments".

And also....if you would be so kind...PLEEEAAASSE quit feeding the troll.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. ;-)

Once we are saved by faith and grace of Jesus Christ, do we then keep or break the commandments?

And for those that are walking in the Spirit according to:

Romans 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Once you start walking after the Spirit, do you break - or keep the commandments of God - while you are walking?

{quote]The difference between Israel and the Church is that Jesus paid the penalty in advance for our violations of the Law, so we don’t have to (Colossians 2:13-14). When Paul said we are not under the Law, he meant we are not subject to the penalties for breaking it.

This is simply not true at all. Jesus Christ came, as the Seed to whom the promises were made, to ESTABLISH the New Covenant in place of the first covenant. That's right 'replacement'. The First Covenant would only be in force upon Israel until the Seed (Jesus Christ) should come.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

Your comment to makrothumia (Alan) was "That is a deceptive teaching. Educate yourself, stop arguing for arguments sake."

Since you have relegated yourself to be the learned one, I will answer you as such. The Old Covenant had an expiration date. The Ten Words (Decalogue, etc.) are part of this covenant. You should know that by tradition the Rabbi's consider them to be an expansion of the 7 Noahide (Noachain) laws that were said to be passed from Noah by oral tradition. Moses built on these with the 10 Words (Commandments) and continued to build. These were later codified by the Rabbi's into 365 neg 248 pos (613 total) laws. This was their synthesis of the covenant commandments. It was the basis upon which they were to relate to God and be a Holy Priesthood, etc. It was also effectively a tenancy agreement. The land would vomit them out just as it did the infidels before them should they not honor the covenant. It was the terms of their relationship with God. Note, it was "ADDED" because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed should come.

Note this as well, Jesus did not come to provide a perpetual means by which the Old Covenant could be maintenanced. He was the Temple, the Lamb, and the covenant (as it were). He is now the High Priest of a BETTER covenant as He has taken away the first. Notice what the writer to the Hebrews says;

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7:12)

The writer to the Hebrews prophesies that the First Covenant was waxing old and was ready to vanish away. This was written circa 65 and the Temple was destroyed by Titus circa 70. He could see the end of the First Covenant was near. The Temple being destroyed effectively ended the sacrificial system. The covenant could not be maintained through the remission of the sins committed against that covenant by blood sacrifice anymore. It is not utterly null and void. It has in the words of the writer to Hebrews, "vanished away."

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Hebrews 8:6ff)

This is in part the approach God has taken with the New Covenant. We are NOT under the law, no not the 10 Commandments in the sense you are trying to suggest. Through faith Paul teaches us that we receive the Spirit. We are to be Baptized into Jesus Christ to become New Creature. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17) One is either in the first Adam or in Christ the 'Last Adam'. We share the experience of the one we are in and under. The first Adam was a slave to Sin and we are born in him as such. The last Adam was a slave to God, having lived dead to and died to Sin, beloved of God well pleasing to God; if we are IN Christ (the last Adam) we share in that experience as real as we did when we were sinners in Adam.

The Old Covenant was tailored for those that are in the first Adam. It was designed for our old man. Keep that clear.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

The New Covenant does not make for antinomianism. Notice again, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4). Not the keeping of the 10 Commandments, but to walk out the Spirit of the Law as it is in the New Covenant that was given for the NEW MAN by bearing the Fruit of the Spirit as opposed to living in the flesh. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31)

The human race turned the corner when Jesus Christ came. God had been winking at ignorance but no more. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:10, 11)

NOTICE, the standard is now bringing forth good fruit. This is what man is called to do IN Christ, under the New Covenant, as New Creatures, born of God, etc. This is opposed to those that continue in old Adam, For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:7,8)

The COMMANDMENTS cannot give life. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (Galatians 3:21ff)

The commandments are dead in the water to put fruit on the vines. This is what God wants. This is what the New Covenant brings; the FRUIT of the Spirit; the evidence of the LIFE of God flowing in us. Evidence that we are IN Christ, born of God. Evidence that we are no longer broken off from the vine (Christ), but are in Him and shedding forth His life. This is why Paul wrote Galatians in his own handwriting. We cannot improve a Spiritual life by going back under the carnal commandments. The Law cannot bring life. Not in the sense God now requires it.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:off)

These are strong words, but Paul saw the danger of the whole New Covenant being brought to ruin. He would have none of it. Nor should we.

RobertW:
Great post. I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and writing it all out.

God bless
mj

"If God’s grace cannot be resisted by men as believed by your doctrine then how can men kill it?"

To the woman,

And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privately to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Gal.2

These are the would-be grace killers.
They would if they could but they can't so they won't.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it is yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he this by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal. 3

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. Rom.4

God's Gospel of Grace -

Now to him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believe it and quit arguing about your righteousness.
It's God's Righteousness alone.

I will lock this thread.

Reasons is the topic has been debatted many times, and i have not read any new views or additions to previous threads.

There has been some good posts made by several posters, i see not any more fruit to come from this and if any would like to continue this discussion i would encourage to do so via mail or another way of communication.

If you look in verse 29 you will notice the word "debate" and later we se the "pleasure in them doing that"

Do we find pleasure in debate? about these things that may cause strife and division? some things are needed to debate, but for this subject i recomend to search other threads from past where has been debatet for greath length.

also recommended to watch Zac Poonen on the Sabbath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AufSkXabUjw

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.