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The High Benefit of Christian Submission

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roadsign

The High Cost of Christian Submission

Submission is the Christian duty: “Submit to one another in the fear of Christ”. Eph. 5:21 It is the sense of yielding to another. We submit to those who have authority over us in our domestic relationships. We submit to the governing powers. (see Rom 12). We submit to our enemies. We submit to our subordinates – even as Christ submitted to humanity - by yielding his life. The Christian submits in all human contexts. It is our way of life – our very nature.

There is a quality of submission that arises merely from the flesh; but there is a different quality of submission made possible through surrender to Christ. The believer can submit in ways that are most unreasonable – even impossible for the unregenerate. Fleshly submission goes the first mile; godly submission, the second mile.

Fleshly submission is tainted with self-righteousness; Godly submission with true brokenness and humility. In fleshly submission the “self’ is preserved; in godly submission the ‘self’ is crucified. Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man and the doctrine of works; Christ-centered submission, by the fear of God and by his grace.

Fleshly submission is an effect of slavery; godly submission, of freedom. Yet, paradoxically Christian submission is a form of slavery. (see Rom. 6:16 -23)


In scripture the idea of submission is often applied towards God’s children who are dominated, oppressed, and exploited. That is where believers have most often found themselves. That’s a historical reality. These are the ones, I believe, who can help us understand our call to submission.

So far I have said little about the nature and outworking of submission. I would like to explore this theme further.

Further study, I think can help me rise above the tendency to perceive “submission” through the fleshly mindset or through cultural paradigms (which has merely created confusion and dividing walls).

I cherish your thoughts and contributions.

Diane

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sermonindex

Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man,

Yes.

Jesus said, My sheep know my voice and won't follow another.

The problem comes when we haven't had the time to get to Know His Voice. Normally that only comes through a great amount of time alone with Him or to those who's childlike faith has tuned in early in their walks or through those wilderness times.
We normally join a Church immediately after getting saved - which can be either good or bad, and rather than ask The LORD for counsel and learn Christ & His Word by study - we'll depend soley on others to answer all of our questions and there's not always the same quality of growth or quaranteed safety in that method, compared to asking Him with His Word wide open.

There is such a characteristic labeled "a dependent personality". These folks have little confidence to go it alone and need always get direction from someone else - other than alone in prayer with GOD.
Granted, for some it is more difficult to go from living autonomously while unsaved to suddenly getting saved and learning some "voice within" or to know His Word well enough to know how to find well sought-out counsel from it alone. There's a very vulnerable time directly after becoming a Christian and normally that is when new Christians are most vulnerable to come under the control of another, who is only too happy 'to control'.
Ideally, a leader will lead that person to an independent-dependence on Christ and His Word and away from depending solely on others to answer all of their questions. I was always taught that a good leader will always do that, besides just pray with the person and throw out questions and conversation that would train the person to seek out answers for themselves. Submission is normally only needed when the 'direction' we should go in is in question.

As far as 'leaders' go - few are called in comparison to how many call themselves by that title.

I've always actually enjoyed submission but after enough hard knocks, came to learn that GOD must truly show me clearly who I am to submit to. Gratefully, I found a very Godly Pastor and his wife is more of a sister to me/us than any "first lady" type. He set an example that few can follow. A good leader will lead by example and know how to walk with you through your hard times and his counsel will come across more as suggestions that we should go to GOD with.

Complicated topic. Other than wives submitting to their husbands and us to parents - except if it's a directive to sin against our conscience before GOD - my belief that all things and those who would 'lead' should be tested for a sufficient season, with prayer for protection for ourselves from our Good Shepherd.
Nothing wrong with taking time to "prove" an individual to be certain that what they are asking us to submit to is from the Spirit and not their flesh.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

GOD doesn't bless blind submission. We're individually responsible and accountable to know His voice & Word for ourselves.
Walking this walk 'blind' in any area because we haven't consulted our King and permitting time for our own growth to hear His answers is the major cause of falls - either morally or doctrinally.
We can depend on others so much that we totally stunt our own growth - GOD forbid it.

There's so much more to this but I'll leave it and thank you for your post.

G
ginnyrose

Diane, the way you contrast godly submission with fleshy submission is thoughtful, indeed...reminds me of the times when you tell a child he needs to apologize and does it because he fears you, not because he is sorry. Still, this exercise in submission is not bad - one hopes that in time the child will mature and learn the lesson the parent hoped to instill in that child.

Another aspect of submission used to be talked a lot about by our deacon - the one that exists in husband and wife relationships. The wife brings into a marriage her insights, perceptions of life, or whatever. It is her responsibility to share these insights with her husband for the betterment of life and to make life work. A wife who fails to share her insights with her husband is not a submissive wife. It has been my experience that rarely are my insights totally adequate to the issue at hand, but an important component that is essential in whatever decision is being made. I lend to it and in so doing it will trigger a thinking process in my husbands' mind that was absent before. This is the value of brainstorming where people of diverse experiences will share their insights in dealing with the issue at hand.

No, submission is not bad - it is the oil that lubricates the wheels of society, that keep it running smoothly. If it is inspired by the WORD you will have this added component in seeing the will of God at work.

I look forward to reading others' insights.

ginnyrose

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roadsign

The quality of Christian submission is best demonstrated in Jesus Christ – most notably, his submission to evil man. He submitted to the point of death when he could have called ten thousand angels. He submitted, even when it meant he would be misunderstood, mocked as a failure, a loser. He submitted when he became the scapegoat for human sin. Note, he did not do this out of powerlessness or coercion - but out of free will and love:

When we were still God’s enemies (that is, in an undeserving state) Christ submitted his life in death. This is how God demonstrates his love to us. (See Romans 5) This is the ultimate submission. Really it is about Christ’s submission to none other than his heavenly Father.

We can easily understand submission to those who deserve our deference. But what about our “enemies” – those who seek our harm, or who seek to use us for their gain? When we touch on this aspect of submission, we touch on a very common Christian experience (historically and globally). Remember, when one becomes a believer, one lays aside their “swords”, ie, power over others. And in that way, they become vulnerable in a fallen and hostile world.

How does scripture address this?

Diane

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sermonindex

"Fleshly submission is tainted with self-righteousness; Godly submission with true brokenness and humility. In fleshly submission the “self’ is preserved; in godly submission the ‘self’ is crucified. Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man and the doctrine of works, Christ-centered submission, by the fear of God and by his grace."

Yes indeed Diane, and may I add that Christ centered submission is driven, at the very heart, by love. We love Him because He loved us. We have a genuine relationship with Him because we are bond-servants. In the days of slavery, when a slave could have chosen freedom but he chose to stay with His master, what a beautiful thing and what a reflection upon the master. His Love for us changes everything. When all of the above flows from love then one is near to the heart of God. Of course this can only happen to those who have encountered the love of God and been completly broken and transformed by it.......brother Frank

E
El-Bethel

I couldn't conceal my joy in reading this thread. Thank you bros and siss for this wonderful, blesssed thread.Roadsign, one of the great threads.

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roadsign

In scripture:

Joseph submitted to his ruler Pharaoh, and it cost him a jail term.

David submitted to King Saul by sparing his life. Yet it cost David.

Daniel submitted the pagan emperor by serving and honouring him - and it cost him the lion's den.

Hannah submitted her right to motherhood, by offering Samuel to an apostate highpriest. God used Samuel for his redemptive purposes.

Jeremiah called Israel to submit to the Babylonian empire – but they refused. The cost was judgment - not blessing. Even still, Jeremiah submitted to God’s call, and remained faithful to Israel.

Other examples?

PS In what way did they all give to "Caesar" what is "Caesar's" and to God what is God's?

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roadsign


The “Second Mile” – a Risky Submission

I offered a few examples of Bible people who submitted to superior powers. Many others were positioned as underdogs in the societal power grid. Yet through their submission they exercised great power – power of a nature that pagans could not comprehend. It is the power to offer the rulers and authorities what (in God’s economy) is owed to them: loyalty, respect, deference, and the fruit of one’s labors. It is independent of the merit of the recipient. According to Jesus this is what it means to “be perfect”: to dispense merciful love just like God does - towards the just and the unjust alike. (see Matt. 5:43-48)

The “first mile” is performed out of obligation, the “second mile” out of freedom – and more: In that second mile the love of Christ becomes evident. But so does something else:

The superior realizes that he cannot control or intimidate his subject, nor does he have full authority over this person. The “second mile” puts the superior in a position of lesser power. He realizes that the Christian is acting from a different authority, one that is uncontrollable and that cannot be subdued. The “second mile” is an affront to a ruler’s supreme authority - and so for the Christian it is a double-edged sword. It is why so many Christians are persecuted.

Nothing is more threatening to an empire than uncontrollable subjects. All who appear to threaten its power must be kept in check. This could become true for any human-run system of governance – be that an education system, a religious system, the health system, and so forth. From that perspective – true Christian submission in a fallen world is inevitably threatening and will incur resistance.

“The second mile” can either humble a superior or aggravate him (or her). He can’t stay neutral. The response is either submission to Christ or hostile resistance against Him – vented towards the Christian.

Christian submission is costly …. but it is fruitful.

Diane

I
InTheLight

Other examples?

Jonathan, Saul's son comes to mind. He submitted to his father and served in war to the bitter end.
He submitted himself to David, a commoner, even though he was in line to be king.

I suppose he was ultimately submitted to the truth. Ultimately he recognized that it was God's choice.

In Christ,

Ron

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roadsign

Jonathan, Saul's son comes to mind. He submitted to his father and served in war to the bitter end.

This I do not understand. Did Jonathan’s loyalty to his father in battle reflect godly submission - or merely a compliance that God never intended?

He submitted himself to David, a commoner, even though he was in line to be king.

I suppose he was ultimately submitted to the truth. Ultimately he recognized that it was God's choice.

This I can understand. Here Jonathan put himself in line with God’s design.

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sermonindex


I believe that I learned the most about submission from Richard Wurmbrand's books. Most especially thinking of his essay - The Underground Church.

Depends on one's eschatology or world view - what they'd see through that.

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sermonindex

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:1-8)

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:4-11)

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5)

Paul intentionally disrobed himself of all of his intellect and learnedness for the church at Corinth. Their culture highly esteemed the wisdom and philosophical opinions of man and this leaven was spreading throughout the church (Luke 16:15). So Paul emptied himself to where he only mirrored Jesus Christ and His saving power on the cross. He saw the need for them to return to their first love again so he deliberately debased himself for their sakes. That's submissive love. To be considered a fool in the eyes of many for the sake of the salvation of a few is the mind of Christ and the love of God compels this type of faith. Was he seeking to please man? He was a bondservant of Christ (Galatians 1:10) and just as Christ was severely misunderstood for the joy set before Him, Paul decided to follow in His footsteps, despising the shame, walking by faith to recover what was lost.

J
jochbaptist

1Pe 2:18 –
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

1Pe 2:19
FOR IT IS COMMENDABLE IF A MAN BEARS UP UNDER THE PAIN OF UNJUST SUFFERING BECAUSE HE IS CONSCIOUS OF GOD.

1Pe 2:20
But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? BUT IF YOU SUFFER FOR DOING GOOD AND YOU ENDURE IT, THIS IS COMMENDABLE BEFORE GOD.

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roadsign

I see many beautiful posts here – with so many different perspectives – church, family, Christian books, scriptures….. Thank you!

1Pe 2:19
FOR IT IS COMMENDABLE IF A MAN BEARS UP UNDER THE PAIN OF UNJUST SUFFERING BECAUSE HE IS CONSCIOUS OF GOD.

Such as David. King Saul had caused David brutal unjust suffering. Yet in his lament (2 Sam. 1) David honored Saul. You see no thoughts of condemnation, ill will, or resentment. His grief flowed from sweet love and admiration – as if all the suffering and wrongs had vanished from his mind. “Love keeps no record of wrongs”. The severe trials served to make David acutely “conscious of God” (1 Pe 2:19) and also of his own sin. So David could eagerly honor Saul in death as he did in life. Surely David considered Saul better than himself. David went the second mile.

To me David’s lament is a tender portrait of godly submission to a faltering king.

In the lament David honors Saul as much as he honors Jonathan. Should I not also treat my own “Sauls” as I do my “Jonathans”? Isn’t that what Jesus meant when he said, “Be Perfect?” (see Matt. 5:43-48)

Diane


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roadsign

Submit: [Greek: hupotasso]

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a
military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,
it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".

(from NetBible.org)

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sermonindex


Some, like me, believe we're living in the beginning of the Last Days when deception will run rampant and as Richard Wurmbrand warned us - to be Very careful who you submit to, because we don't know until the End, Who will remain faithful until the end.
Many people fall when their 'leaders' fall or those they've looked up to.
Many Pastors have taken special training on how to round up their church's people under some special FEMA program. You decide if you want to get on that bus with them.

The greatest thing that we could lead people to, at this juncture is, to learn His Voice - His leading and to trust Him with all of our hearts, that regardless of what the majority are doing - we'll obey His leading. Without being submissive to the guidance of His Spirit, we're in rebellion, even if every Christian around us, is doing the opposite of what we're feeling led to do or not do.

Blind submission to human beings contradicts complete submission to Him, at the most crucial times in history.

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InTheLight

This I do not understand. Did Jonathan’s loyalty to his father in battle reflect godly submission - or merely a compliance that God never intended?

Yes, this is difficult to understand. It's a tough question, is there some point where Jonathan should have just walked away?

In spite of great differences with his father he was still the king,appointed by God. Also, his father was not asking him to do something immoral. In submission to God he honored his father.

In Christ,

Ron

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sermonindex

"In spite of great differences with his father he was still the king,appointed by God. Also, his father was not asking him to do something immoral. In submission to God he honored his father."

This is the same thing Carter Conlon believed the Holy Spirit was showing him. I coincidentally (moreso providentially) listened to this sermon today:

Loyalty
http://media.sermonindex.net/23/SID23086.mp3

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roadsign

… be very careful who you submit to, because we don't know until the End, Who will remain faithful

Blind submission to human beings … .

I wonder, does scripture ever imply that submission require the acceptance of one’s ideologies? Even Paul required his listeners to “examine scripture” and see if his teaching lined up.

It would seem that “blind submission” is not Christian submission at all. How can one truly and freely submit to another while blinded. That seems more like passive conformity to an influence – other than Christ. It is giving to “Caesar” (a human power/ruler) what belongs to God.

I am concerned about the assumption that we decide to whom we submit. If we perceive one’s doctrine to be in error we think we are under no obligation to submit to that person. Yet scripture does not seem to make this distinction. After all, we are called to submit to enemies, to pagan Caesars, to unbelieving spouses - even our persecutors.

Oh … how many dividing walls in Christianity have been caused by the assumption that one is no under obligation to submit to the one "in the wrong" (assuming, of course, that we are in the right).

Ginnyrose explains submission as:

the oil that lubricates the wheels of society, that keep it running smoothly

This is insightful! In our “free” society – it is all too easy to drop a church when things aren’t right in our estimation. It is all too easy to leave a spouse; it is all too easy to join a labour union against our employer (using Carter Conlon’s example). In this way our loyalty is conditional upon one’s merit in our eyes. that, really, is not loyalty at all. I think this happens when God's people can't distinguish between what belongs to "Caesar" and what belongs to God. And they feel trapped.

Conlon (in the sermon posted here) uses of the word “loyalty” – to convey the idea of Christian submission. I prefer to keep the word “submission” here because we need to wrestle through with it. It is a word that has become extremely distasteful due to misuse (and abuse). I wish to reclaim it for kingdom purposes.

Diane

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sermonindex

Submit – 5293. {40x} hupotasso, hoop-ot-as’-so; from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexive to obey:—put under {6x}, be subject unto {6x}, be subject to {5x}, submit (one’s) self unto {5x}, submit (one’s) self to {3x}, be in subjection unto {2x}, put in subjection under {1x}, miscellaneous {12x} = be under obedience (obedient), subdue unto.
(1) This was originally a Greek military term meaning to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader. (2) In non-military use, it was a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden. (3) It denotes (3a) “to put in subjection, to subject, to put under” in Romans 8:20 (twice); 1 Corinthians 15:27 (thrice), 28 (3rd clause); Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 2:8 (4th clause); (3b) in 1 Corinthians 15:28 (1st clause), “be subdued”; (3c) in Philippians 3:21, “subdue”; (3d) in Hebrews 2:5, “hath… put in subjection”; (4) in the middle or passive voice, to subject oneself, to obey, be subject to, (4a) Luke 2:51; 10:17, 20; (4b) Romans 8:7; 10:3, “have (not) submitted themselves”; 13:1, 5; (4c) 1 Corinthians 14:34, “be under obedience”; 15:28 (2nd clause); 16:16, “submit, etc.”; so Colossians 3:18; (4d) Ephesians 5:21, “submitting, etc.”; 5:22, 24, “is subject”; (4e) Titus 2:5, 9, “be obedient”; 3:1, “to be subject”; (4f) Hebrews 12:9, “be in subjection”; James 4:7, “submit yourselves”; so (4g) 1 Peter 2:13, 18; so 3:1, 5, 22, “being made subject”; 5:5, “submit yourselves”; also in the 2nd part. See: TDNT—8:39, 1156; BAGD—847d; THAYER—645c.


5259. {230x} hupo, hoop’-o; a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below] or time (when [at]):—of {116x}, by {42x}, under {48x}, with {14x}, in {1x}, not tr {6x}, miscellaneous {3x} = among, from. [In composition, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially covertly or moderately.] See: BAGD—843a; THAYER—642a.


5021. {8x} tasso, tas’-so; a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):—addict {1x}, appoint {3x}, determine {1x}, ordain {2x}, set {1x}.
Tasso, as a verb, means “to place in order, arrange,” and signifies (1) “to appoint” of the place where Christ had “appointed” a meeting with His disciples after His resurrection: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them” (Matthew 28:16); (1b) of positions of military and civil authority over others, whether (1b1) “appointed” by men: “For I also am a man set (tasso) under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, God, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it” (Luke 7:8), or (1b2) by God: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God” (Romans 13:1). It signifies (2) to be “ordained.” (2a) It is said of those who, having believed the gospel, “were ordained to eternal life”: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). (2b) The house of Stephanas at Corinth had “addicted” themselves to the ministry of the saints: “I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted (tasso) themselves to the ministry of the saints” (1 Corinthians 16:15). Synonym: (A) Entellomai (1781) means to enjoin, is used especially of those whose office or position invests them with claims, and points rather to the contents of the command, check “our instruction.” (B) Keleuo (2753) means to command, designates verbal orders, coming usually from a superior. (C) Paraggello (3853) means to charge, and is used especially of the order of a military commander to his troops. Tasso means to assign a post to, with a suggestion of duties connected with it, often used of military appointments. (D) Paragello (3853) differs from entellomai (1781) in denoting fixed and abiding obligations rather than specific or occasional instructions, duties arising from the office rather than coming from the personal will of a superior. See: TDNT—8:27, 1156; BAGD—805d; THAYER—615c.

(from Strong's concordance)

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sermonindex

"I am concerned about the assumption that we decide to whom we submit... Oh … how many dividing walls in Christianity have been caused by the assumption that one is no under obligation to submit to the one "in the wrong" (assuming, of course, that we are in the right)."

Thanks for pointing this out. It truly is an issue that is wrestled with and grappled with amongst ourselves. Living in a free society opens the door wide open to an autonomous mind-set, and this pattern of thinking has unfortunately invaded the church. If we're not subject to being taught the word of God by the Spirit, we no doubt will be subject to this type of free-thinking produced by the world.

We submit at our jobs, whether to those below, level, or above us, for the sake of money and security. Even when employee and employer alike are 'wrong' in a certain sense, we submit and desire some sort of peace for the sake of working together day in and day out, ultimately for the sake of keeping our financial livelihood. A high level of tolerance is advocated by company policy and everyone usually faithfully abides by it, lest they be labeled a trouble-maker and possibly loose their job.

The standard of God and for the church is not tolerance but love. We're commanded to love everyone, no matter what - no excuses. We do this by submitting to each other in the fear of the Lord (Ephesians 5:21). We fear the Lord because He is the Righteous Judge and everything that proceeds from us is accounted for, and He is the One worthy to ultimately judge us; not each other. He will one day hold us into account of everything that proceeded from us (Matthew 12:36, 37; Acts 17:30, 31; 1 Peter 4:15-18). So with this in mind, as was said 'we make it our aim... to be well pleasing to Him' (2 Corinthians 5:8-11). We please the Lord when we submit to each other in faith. The world is convicted when they witness true submission of the church, one to another. They will either be wooed or repelled by the godliness that they witness. Judgment truly begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4:19). As was said, 'accept wrong... let yourselves be cheated' (1 Corinthians 6:7). This is true submission.

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sermonindex


Diane, I don't believe you quite understand what I'm saying.

We, as His Sheep, should be very well acquainted with His still small Voice and there will be times when submission will not be an option, by His leading.

We're to submit to His Voice first and foremost and not teach submission to one and all.

Love - yes. Submission to all - is not in His Word.

I feel we're confusing "love" with "submission".

I have no idea what your eschatological beliefs are - but I could ask - Did Daniel submit when told he couldn't pray anymore? Or did the Apostles submit when told not to "preach in His Name" anymore?
That's all that I'm saying. There are times when we will feel that check in our spirits to even get away from certain people - as in "flee".

The Holy Spirit is the First to be submitted to. Many don't know His Voice yet and are easily swayed by those who desire to "lead" or control - and how many young-in-Christ need to be devoured before we teach them to learn His Voice and be a Berean first and foremost?
What of those who submitted to a Jim Jones, Etc.?

This literally could be a life and death situation - and has been for far too many over these thousands of years.

I'm all for submission, as I posted earlier - but a true teacher from GOD will point us to Christ and to submit to His leading / Voice and His Word, First and foremost.
Most especially in the days ahead of us all.


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sermonindex

39 So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth. 40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit,filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him. 41 His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. 43 When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; 44 but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. 48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.” 49 And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” 50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them. 51 Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. (Luke 2:39-52)

This is another good passage to observe regarding true submission. Jesus honored His direct authority figures placed over His life - His mom and dad (Exodus 20:12). He subjected Himself to their wills and desires. Mary and Joseph were wrong at times, yet Jesus humbled Himself under their decisions and power to exercise them. He did not grumble and complain and murmur but quickly obeyed them, noticing and fearing God. Jesus continually humbled Himself under their hand and their direction, believing God, and was continually under grace and growing in God (James 4:6). When we truly submit, God increases us and we flourish (1 Peter 5:5-9). The church is constantly under attack and is devoured and not flourishing because of believing the lie; believing the misinformation of submission.

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roadsign

Did Daniel submit when told he couldn't pray anymore?

Great example for this topic! You raise a valid objection and so we need to further wrestle with the idea of “submission”. Daniel I think can help us differentiate Christian submission from ungodly submission.

Interestingly, it was Daniel’s impeccable fidelity to the King that instigated jealous rivals to get him ousted - for un-submissiveness, no less. They “tried to find grounds for charges against Daniel in his conduct of government affairs, but were unable to do so.... he was trustworthy, neither corrupt nor negligent” Dan. 6:4 His adversaries also realized that he lived under a higher authority: God So they made that the grounds for conviction. How clever! (or rather - foolish).

Daniel had mature faith and knew his boundaries. He gave the king what belonged to the king, and to God what belonged to God. Surely, if Daniel had not been consistently submissive towards King Darius, Darius would not have been so deeply grieved over the potential loss of Daniel to the lions.

In what ways did Daniel submit to the king? He accepted a new name, new culture, new education, new ruler, new calling – all under the power of uncircumcised pagan rulers – for the express purpose of supporting the very ones who were Israel’s enemies and conquerors! It would be like you and I someday being required to abandon our Western identity, to accept a Muslim name, and Middle Eastern culture, serve their government, and so forth. We sure would want to know the difference between what’s of man and what’s of God.

I am coming to see that if we cannot discern what belongs to man (“Caesar”) and what belongs to God, we can never have a testimony like Daniel had.

Oh ... Is that not the very pitfall of “tolerance” as promoted today ...

... and conversely, the Jewish uprising in 70 AD, the Medieval crusades, and so forth?

Diane

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Daniel knew His Voice well. Daniel was 'called'. He was fully submitted to The LORD in all that he did.
Those two qualifications, of knowing His Voice and being 'called' to the very things that one does, are precious, as in, rare.


~

When He putteth forth His Own sheep, He goeth before them,
and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me
and a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
-from John 10

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Submitting to our Subordinates

So far we have addressed submission to those of higher standing than us. What about submission to our subordinates – those under our authority or power of influence, or who have a weaker status? We find here no exceptional clauses in scripture. This is the stance we are called to take – even when contrary to political/ social/religious order.

The Pharisees could not submit to Jesus because he had no authority (according to their codes); and that, they assumed, absolved them. They were superior to Jesus. To submit to Jesus would have been a threat to their honor. (Note, Nicodemus approached Jesus at night.)

It was the same for the high-standing commander (Naaman) to accept a little slave girl’s recommendation. (2 Kings 5) … or today:
- a professor to receive knowledge from a student,
-a pastor to receive revelation through a new convert,
-a parent to receive divine rebuke through a child. (Can’t kids be unbearably convicting!!)
- a boss … from an employer,
- a male…. from a female, (in many cultures) and so forth.

David’s submission to Abigail was a remarkable act of maturity. Nabal challenged David’s honour, and David was fuming – blinded by revenge. Yet David humbly accepted Abigail’s word. (1 Sam. 25) The mighty David subdued his power because he came to see, through her, a higher authority at work: God’s law. And David feared God.

Here’s the question: Why is appropriate submission only possible in Christ? Is it not because only in Him does one enter a realm where all human distinctions are irrelevant? And even reversed! Here a slave is a freedman and a freedman is a slave.

I don’t think this adequately covers the idea of submission to subordinates. Still, I wonder how well these comments relate to the function of hearing the Spirit:

Posted by Jesus-is-God

…. the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice.

Diane


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"Why is appropriate submission only possible in Christ?"


IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. He was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being. In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. (John 1:1-4)

[Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation. For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him. And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together). He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent]. For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him permanently. And God purposed that through by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:15-20)

2[But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order]. He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high, [Taking a place and rank by which] He Himself became as much superior to angels as the glorious Name (title) which He has inherited is different from and more excellent than theirs. (Hebrews 1:2-4)


SO BY whatever [appeal to you there is in our mutual dwelling in Christ, by whatever] strengthening and consoling and encouraging [our relationship] in Him [affords], by whatever persuasive incentive there is in love, by whatever participation in the [Holy] Spirit [we share], and by whatever depth of affection and compassionate sympathy, Fill up and complete my joy by living in harmony and being of the same mind and one in purpose, having the same love, being in full accord and of one harmonious mind and intention. Do nothing from factional motives [through contentiousness, strife, selfishness, or for unworthy ends] or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself [thinking more highly of one another than you do of yourselves]. Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others. Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:1-11)

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But [Jesus] stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity]

I am seeing that submission is not merely an act, or even attitude which we exercise in specific situations. It is a character quality. Carter Conlon asks: “Are you a loyal person? Are you known for being trustworthy?” Likewise, we ask of ourselves: Are you a submissive person? Is that a recognizable character quality in you? Is it in your nature to be submissive in your dealings with others – in general - without partiality? (Note, I use the word, “submission” from a biblical perspective – NOT worldly)

As for me, I must admit that my nature resists vehemently. Pride fights it all the time. I hate appearing foolish. I poorly tolerate affronts to my dignity. It is a constant battle. Oh, part of me wants to become like Christ, but part of me doesn’t. I fight against my own crucifixion. Every time I fight it, I am stripped of inner peace, and a disquieting residual agony haunts my inner being. Thank God! This is the school of submission-hood – God’s training ground. I know I would be blind to my rebellious nature apart from Spirit revelation and conviction. And God works most effectively through my failings. It drives me to the feet of Jesus, and there I see one who willingly “stripped Himself” of dignity. Only there can I die – with Christ in his crucifixion. It is the only way to victory.

Naaman illustrates this inner battle. His dignity was severely affronted by the way Elisha treated him. (see 2 Kings 5) Naaman was a high standing official and expected to be treated accordingly. But this is precisely where Naaman needed to be healed first. He needed to become less so God could become more in his life. At first Naaman fought it (Oh, I can relate!) but then he surrendered. It was a humbling demotion, a painful submission. But it was the means to his healing.

Naaman may have been a valiant military victor, but when it came to his self-concept in relationship to those God brought into his life, he had to lose before he could win.

This is the nature of submission.

Diane


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Lysa


About submitting to the Lord:

You can practice 'yielding' to the Lord until you become perfect at it or you can practice 'resisting' the Lord until you become perfect at it. We choose which one.

God bless,
Lisa

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roadsign: "As for me, I must admit that my nature resists vehemently. Pride fights it all the time. I hate appearing foolish. I poorly tolerate affronts to my dignity. It is a constant battle. Oh, part of me wants to become like Christ, but part of me doesn’t. I fight against my own crucifixion. Every time I fight it, I am stripped of inner peace, and a disquieting residual agony haunts my inner being. Thank God! This is the school of submission-hood – God’s training ground. I know I would be blind to my rebellious nature apart from Spirit revelation and conviction. And God works most effectively through my failings. It drives me to the feet of Jesus, and there I see one who willingly “stripped Himself” of dignity. Only there can I die – with Christ in his crucifixion. It is the only way to victory."

DO YOU not know, brethren--for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law--that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive? For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband. Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another]. But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing]. Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again and I died (was sentenced by the Law to death). And the very legal ordinance which was designed and intended to bring life actually proved [to mean to me] death. For sin, seizing the opportunity and getting a hold on me [by taking its incentive] from the commandment, beguiled and entrapped and cheated me, and using it [as a weapon], killed me. The Law therefore is holy, and [each] commandment is holy and just and good. Did that which is good then prove fatal [bringing death] to me? Certainly not! It was sin, working death in me by using this good thing [as a weapon], in order that through the commandment sin might be shown up clearly to be sin, that the extreme malignity and immeasurable sinfulness of sin might plainly appear.

We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin. For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns]. Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it. However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.] For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul]. So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands. For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature]. But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh]. O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death? O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)


roadsign: "Naaman illustrates this inner battle. His dignity was severely affronted by the way Elisha treated him. (see 2 Kings 5) Naaman was a high standing official and expected to be treated accordingly. But this is precisely where Naaman needed to be healed first. He needed to become less so God could become more in his life. At first Naaman fought it (Oh, I can relate!) but then he surrendered. It was a humbling demotion, a painful submission. But it was the means to his healing.

Naaman may have been a valiant military victor, but when it came to his self-concept in relationship to those God brought into his life, he had to lose before he could win.

This is the nature of submission."


As said in Philippians 2, The Word became flesh. The Word of God became flesh. That is inconceivable. Not only flesh, but as flesh, stripped Himself of His rights and His dignity and decided to become a slave. Not only a slave but decided to become an obedient slave slandered as a blasphemer against the Master. Not only all of this, but also decided to become a curse... just to buy us back from sin and death (Galatians 3:13).

In love, He decided to abase so that many will abound.

Behold, My Servant shall deal wisely and shall prosper; He shall be exalted and extolled and shall stand very high. [For many the Servant of God became an object of horror; many were astonished at Him.] His face and His whole appearance were marred more than any man's, and His form beyond that of the sons of men--but just as many were astonished at Him, So shall He startle and sprinkle many nations, and kings shall shut their mouths because of Him; for that which has not been told them shall they see, and that which they have not heard shall they consider and understand. (Isaiah 52:13-15)

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“A Christian man is the most free lord of all, and subject to none;
a Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all, and subject to everyone.”


This catchy statement by Luther is easy to remember. Yet it’s one of the most difficult concepts to grasp – to see the two clauses functioning together. It's a paradox. But this is where the rubber hits the road. It is how our heavenly relationship with God touches our earthly relationships. It’s how God touches down on earth – and his glory shines.

I think Luther means this: In becoming freed of self, sin, and idolatrous dependencies, we become freed to give our self to another. We become as slaves – always endebted to our "neighbor". “Let no debt remain except the debt to love one another…” Rom. 13:8

Subordination is most brutally counterintuitive in any area where we perceive ourselves over another. A spiritual leader washing dirty feet seems senseless. Even if we are nobody much, our social/religious/ or political identity elevates our sense of self – and we see ourselves better than that person God put in our path. We can be quite partial, can’t we? and oblivious to boot. Then God uses a "neighbor" to convict us. Jesus used the “Good” Samaritan (of all people!) to deflate the lofty self-concept of the religious leaders in his audience. But Jesus knew that this crucifixion of self was their path to eternal life. (Lk. 10:25-37)

Isn't it significant that Jesus often used people in the lower rankings as examples to convey his truths about Christian life? Likewise in the Old Testament God would use people of lower rank spiritually (pagan Gentiles) to humble his people Israel.
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PS I wonder how the following verse relates to our "descent" towards Christian submission.

“In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.”
(“… you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.” NLT) Heb. 12:4


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“'A Christian man is the most free lord of all, and subject to none; a Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all, and subject to everyone'... I think Luther means this: In becoming freed of self, sin, and idolatrous dependencies, we become freed to give our self to another. We become as slaves – always endebted to our "neighbor". “Let no debt remain except the debt to love one another…” Rom. 13:8"


For although I am free in every way from anyone's control, I have made myself a bond servant to everyone, so that I might gain the more [for Christ]. To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to men under the Law, [I became] as one under the Law, though not myself being under the Law, that I might win those under the Law. To those without (outside) law I became as one without law, not that I am without the law of God and lawless toward Him, but that I am [especially keeping] within and committed to the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak (wanting in discernment) I have become weak (wanting in discernment) that I might win the weak and overscrupulous. I have [in short] become all things to all men, that I might by all means (at all costs and in any and every way) save some [by winning them to faith in Jesus Christ]. And I do this for the sake of the good news (the Gospel), in order that I may become a participator in it and share in its [blessings along with you]. Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but [only] one receives the prize? So run [your race] that you may lay hold [of the prize] and make it yours. Now every athlete who goes into training conducts himself temperately and restricts himself in all things. They do it to win a wreath that will soon wither, but we [do it to receive a crown of eternal blessedness] that cannot wither. Therefore I do not run uncertainly (without definite aim). I do not box like one beating the air and striking without an adversary. But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].

"PS I wonder how the following verse relates to our descent into Christian submission.

“In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.”
(“… you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.” NLT) Heb. 12:4"


And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw and knelt down and prayed, Saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but [always] Yours be done. And there appeared to Him an angel from heaven, strengthening Him in spirit. And being in an agony [of mind], He prayed [all the] more earnestly and intently, and His sweat became like great clots of blood dropping down upon the ground. (Luke 22:41-44)


The question is begged, how much do you hate sin and how much do you love God?

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The inability to submit is symptomatic of a hardened heart. A “hard” heart is desensitized – both towards God and towards human. A hard heart cannot appreciate another person as fully human. That other person may be perceived as inferior, evil, a threat, a rebellious sinner - or any perception which implies that he/she does not deserve our submission.

A calloused heart tends to objectify the other person, and see him - less as human - than as an object to control, dominate, or repel. Our victim may be a spouse, child, boss, colleague, pastor, - really any “neighbor”. We keep that person as OTHER - at a distance from our own heart. A common symptom is gossiping about that person - which excludes him from possible reconciliation. This is fear-driven behaviour – which, really, is symptomatic of our weak faith.

Speaking from my own multitudinous failings in this matter, I’d say that when our heart is hardened even a tiny bit we humans can find ourselves performing the nastiest deeds towards another, even to our loved ones. We may dominate and control with our anger, or with “clever” rationality. We fail to submit.

There’s a flip side here. A hardened heart tends to put certain persons high on a pedestal – not out of love, but because the person offers something desirable. This is where false prophets gain a lot of ground. Note, here there is no genuine relationship, or human empathy. And so the “hero” is de-humanized. The hard heart is blind to their hero’s flaws. Hard hearts are gullible, easy to control by those who offer a means to keep the callouses intact - and provide an alternative means to absolve guilt.

Heart-hardness is an insidious infection that will go on damaging people without any conscious awareness. Hard heartedness destroys families, churches, and society. It is the opposite of Christian submission.

To consider: Biblical examples, historical examples, personal examples ….. God’s cure ….

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Dwelling in this topic makes me increasingly sensitized to my own shortcomings. I see two bents– neither of which is truly Christian submission. The one is to overly assert myself - like my opinions, my desires, my person-hood, control, etc. The other is to be overly compliant and adopt a stance of resigned passivity.

I suspect that often my behaviour towards another depends on where I perceive myself in the power ranking– who has more power. This, no doubt, is why as parents it’s easy to overly dominate our child. But if the other person is a strong authority/power figure, it feels safer to give in. (and that may include an insistently nagging child)

Either way, it is NOT a FAITH response. It may actually be a fear response – fear being the opposite of faith. And as you know, when we experience fear or anxiety, we instinctly react with a fight-or-flight response ( instead of a FAITH response). At those moments our motive is more about self-interest than the interest of the other. No wonder scripture says: “Whatever is not of FAITH is sin.” Rom. 14:23

“Without FAITH it is impossible to please God.” Heb. 11:6 Our faith in God’s ability, nurtured through our relationship with him, gives us the capacity to trust him in human relationships. Wherever our faith is weak, we will inevitably find ourselves living in our own strength. And then fear (as opposed to FAITH) will reap its inevitable effects in our relationship with others. Hebrews admonishes us:

“Therefore strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled but rather healed.” Heb. 12: 12

I praise God, the "perfecter of our faith" that he disciplines his children (often through strained relationships) so that our faith may become stronger, and we will “produce a harvest of righteousness and peace ...” Heb. 12:11

Christian submission is our FAITH response in any relational context. It affects even our personal choices - such as eating, drinking and worshiping. (see Rom. 14 - an amazing chapter on submission)

Diane


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“Agree with thine adversary quickly...” Matt. 5:25 KJV

I’ve heard Jesus’ words applied like this: Agree with your accuser; after all, you are not perfect. You can’t possibly be 100 percent right, and so your accuser will always have a margin of truth with which you can agree.

Paul said:

“Why not rather be wronged?
Why not rather be cheated?” (1 Cor. 6:7)

You and I can understand Paul’s motive here: When we insist on our “rightness” we divide relationships, and that harms the church. But to actually AGREE with an accuser’s charges when we believe they are false? We would surely then justify his cause and end up in prison – the opposite of the intended outcome. Agreeing might merely be a form of tolerance: We avoid disagreeing to prevent conflict and nasty repercussions. But surely it is not Christian submission!

The full verse says:

“Agree with thine adversary quickly,
whiles thou art in the way with him;
lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge,
and the judge deliver thee to the officer,
and thou be cast into prison.” Matt. 5:25 KJV

I checked NetBible and, to my surprise, discovered that there is no Greek word meaning “agree” here. Two Greek words are used, one meaning “to be” and the other [eunoeo] which literally means:

1) to wish (one) well
2) to be well disposed
3) to be of a peaceable spirit

There’s nothing here about agreeing with the verdict. It’s more about having an agreeable disposition towards the person – as opposed to being combative, angry, or vindictive in our approach to him. It’s about our character quality reflecting Christian submission: “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

The NIV puts it this way: “Settle matters quickly”. Here the focus is on the “matters”. The NASB, on the other hand, focuses on the relationship: “Make friends quickly.” But I think the literal meaning works best because it focuses on our own responsibility – how we are TO BE with our opponent.

I’ve never endured a lawsuit or serious charge against me. Just imagining it feels frightfully intimidating. I can see the adrenalin rushing. I don’t know if I’d be free from anxiety enough to be at peace, and to exude a well-natured disposition towards my accuser …. wishing him well in life ….. looking into his interests... as we walk together down the road. It's got to be a journey of faith growth - quickly!

Here’s what I’ve learned from studying Math. 5:25:

I have a responsibility to my opponent - to initiate reconciliation for both our sakes. A favorable outcome is more likely if he sees that I truly care about his welfare and interests. This is Christian submission.


Diane

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“Do not be overcome by evil,
but overcome evil with good”
Romans 13:21

Wouldn't you say that Abigail’s treatment of David in 1 Sam. 25 makes an ideal illustration of Christian submission towards an adversary?

Ohh - and Abigail gained more than a friend! She eventually gained a good husband!

Diane

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Befriend or break away?

The Matt. 5:25 teaching on dealing with adversaries is repeated in Luke 12:58 – only with a different slant ..... well maybe not......

Here's Luke 12:58

“When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate,
as thou art in the way,
give diligence that thou mayest BE DELIVERED FROM HIM;
lest he hale thee to the judge,
and the judge deliver thee to the officer,
and the officer cast thee into prison. KJV


The Greek word for “be delivered from” literally means this:

1) remove, release, be removed, depart
2) to set free, deliver

Most Bible versions don’t use these words, perhaps because they can so easily be used to justify alienating behaviours.

Other translations say:
“be reconciled”
“make an effort to settle with him”
“try to settle the matter”
“come to an agreement”

Only the KJV maintains the Greek, literally, and suggests the idea of extrication. That’s where the Matthew verse is different. Actually, depending on our Bible translations, we could conclude that Matthew and Luke have Jesus saying contradictory things: “Make friends” vs “Be delivered from him”. How can both be true?

I think Jesus’ words in Luke imply the idea of becoming delivered from our adversary’s power to harm us. It’s about being delivered from evil – his ill will. It’s about defusing his offense. And that is more likely to happen if we are well-disposed towards him - as the Matt verse says (in the literal Greek). Still, it’s not about schmoozing or about agreeing (because, then you are still entrapped by his offense against you).

This explanation of Jesus’ words, “be delivered from him” KJV can serve to put limits on Paul’s caution regarding adversaries: “Rather be wronged. Rather be cheated” in 1 Cor. 6:7. Paul is not implying that it’s a virtue to be entrapped in the grip of an accuser. There’s no merit in persecution in itself. It’s not an ascetic virtue which brings us closer to God - as some Christians have assumed. For example, Ignatius taught that martyrdom is the highest expression of Christian faith, and a certain path to sainthood.

But Paul is not saying that! He is saying that it’s better to let go rather than make winning your goal. Because even if you win, you lose. You lose a friend. You've exalted yourself above him, and now he is below you - the loser. The whole church loses when God’s people are divided in power struggles.

Instead of asserting your power in order to win your position, you submit for the welfare of the Body. In this way you are obeying Jesus’ words in both Matt and Luke: You’re aim is reconciliation and peace through Christian submission. By forgiving your offender, you release yourself from his grip in your heart – and you are delivered from him. You are both delivered from the need to win and to avenge. And you are (both) free to be Christ’s slave – and IN CHRIST be the “slave” of your “neighbor” – always indebted to love.

Christian submission may cost you your possessions and your dignity. But on the other hand, it gives you new friends – and a place of honour in the Kingdom of God: Blessed are the peacemakers”.


Diane

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roadsign

1 Thes. 5: 15
"Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other."


Comment: One of the wrongs that we may use as "pay back" is our withdrawal from an offending party. We withdraw our kindness, and thus any opportunity for reconciliation and unity.

But it feels right, because it is justice due them: They don't deserve my loyalty any more.


Might that include, in some instances, a decision to leave a church - or having thoughts about quitting :-( ?

Diane

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Spitfire

Hi Diane. Long time, no talk. I was led of the Lord to log onto Sermonindex tonight and, lo and behold, your thread was the first one in "General Topics". It was just the one I needed to think on. I read through the whole thing....

Today, I was working alone, as I always do, and I was pondering the agony of my marriage. I was reflecting on some things I learned from Art Katz. In fact, I reflected to the point that I began to "talk" to Art out loud. Art is dead...wherever dead saints go...yet, I needed to vocalize my thoughts, so I spoke as if it was Art I was talking to. I'm not crazy or delusional, but I just needed to hear myself say something genuine and heartfelt and it just so happened that Art was who came to mind to speak to...

I wondered aloud if he could see my plight. My husband is so carnal...a liar, a lawless man who keeps secrets and plays both ends to the middle. I've wrestled with him for 16 years. I've finally gotten out of God's way. I no longer try to speak to him about right and wrong. I no longer try to persuade him as to how he needs to change. I've suffered the infidelity. I've suffered the lies and silence. At this point, I'm suffering the exposure of a lack of honesty and covering. I'm suffering the torture of my own imagination after a phone call from a woman who had way too much information.

I realize that what is really at stake here is a man's salvation. I realize that it isn't about me. The vulnerability I feel by the lack of anything I can count on in this relationship is irrelevant. It's God who is my provider. It's God whom I can trust. It's God who is faithful...And the only way I can let go of my life and hang here in space is if I maintain my steadfast gaze toward this God. I cannot flinch. I cannot have a bad day. I cannot afford a day in the flesh. The cost is too high. A man's eternal life is at stake.

The only way to submit to God is to die...I have to trust him unto death. My life on this earth has to become less than dung. All I can say to that is....Ahhhuuuugggghhhhh! There's no way to die without it killing me....

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Spitfire

"Christian submission may cost you your possessions and your dignity."

It's pretty much a guarantee...

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roadsign

Hi Spitfire! Long-time-no-see.

Thank you for the affirmation - as unsettling as it may be.

Diane

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roadsign

“TOUCH NOT THE LORD'S ANOINTED!”

Perhaps you have heard these very words used to subdue criticism towards a pastor. Perhaps it made you feel pushed down into “submission”. Maybe you suspected that the church authorities were exerting their power over you to keep you from becoming a threat. Yet, the idea itself comes from scripture. For example:


“I will not put forth mine hand against my lord; for he is the LORD's anointed.” 1 Samuel 24:6

“… who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD's anointed, and be guiltless?” 1 Samuel 26:9

“Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD's anointed.” 2 Samuel 1:16

“ Touch not mine anointed … .” Psalm 105:15 KJV


Questions to ponder:

1)In these scripture, who were those not to be “touched”?

2) What was meant by “touch not”?

3) How do the above references relate to Christian submission - to civil and to spiritual authorities?


Cont’d……

PS: Feel free to share your reflections.

Diane

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Spitfire

The bottom line of submission is this: The glory of God forever. We, as his representatives in the earth, have a mandate to rightly represent Jesus Christ and His Gospel. He taught us how by his life. He was never about his own defense, but he only did those things he saw the Father do. The thing that has screwed up the Church (as a body of believers) is a mixture of wisdoms that has been widely accepted. The wisdom of this world is contrary to the Wisdom of God. The wisdom of this world is the code that Satan lives by...selfishness, self-preservation, and self promotion.

Jesus told us that the only way we would find our life is to lose it. I tell you right now, people!!! You better get busy figuring out how this fleshes out in your life!! The clock is ticking...we have only one lifetime to lose.

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"“I will not put forth mine hand against my lord; for he is the LORD's anointed.” 1 Samuel 24:6"

This incident challenges me like few do. Here was David, also an anointed king of Israel. He had rights, but apparently he did not have the right to kill Saul, even though he was after David to kill him.

Even though God had chosen David to succeed Saul, he did not spare David from Saul's wrath - David was on the run for his life a lot after his' anointing. God did not build a hedge about him to protect him from Saul's wrath, or jealousy. Life was very unpleasant for David, through no fault of his own.

Still, he recognized that Saul was not to be touched - he left that to God.

Profound lesson... BTW, does this respect extend to Barak Obama? I may not like his administration, but do I respect him as the one God placed in that position?

Am thinking....

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roadsign

BTW, does this respect extend to Barak Obama? I may not like his administration, but do I respect him as the one God placed in that position?

Perhaps the next question to ponder would be:

What aspect of my allegiance belongs to my civil rulers and what belongs only to God?


Keep on thinking, sis……

Diane

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Spitfire

I think about Elisha...when he saw Jezebel sitting in the window and he called up for someone to push her out. He was "anointed" to invoke someone to kill Jezebel. How did he know it was God who was calling for it? How do any of us ever know whether to remain passive or to take matters (seemingly)into our own hands?

Again, I say, everything we do or don't do has to be out of the motivation of jealousy for the glory of God...But then again, I see many people doing what they do, supposedly because they believe it is God leading them to do it. I see Christian leaders who are leading entire groups out of their own agenda! It can become very disheartening to others when they have a crisis in their life and there's no one with godly counsel, because they are operating out of this worldly wisdom and it only leads people to further misery. There aren't nearly enough examples around of what a laid down life really looks like...God help us.

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roadsign

When I checked into the “touch not” references I found some interesting surprises! Here’s my summary:

The words are said by David, and most of them relate to King Saul. David had both power and opportunity to exterminate the King Saul, and he knew it. But David refused to use his power that way. David didn’t want to mess with God by destroying the one God chose.

On the other hand, David was not thinking about Saul when he wrote the words, “Touch not mine anointed” in Ps. 105. The context here is key. Note the full sentence in Ps. 105:14-15:

“He [God] let no one oppress them;
he disciplined kings for their sake,
saying, “Don’t touch my chosen ones!
Don’t harm my prophets!”

David is talking about Israel’s early history – during the patriarchs. In Psalm 105 David is expressing praise for God’s preservation during the days when the race was small in number. They were vulnerable to the jealousy of kings, subject to pagan immorality and ever changing political environment.* In Gen. 20: 1-7 we see how God protected Sarah by keeping the king of Gerar from TOUCHING her. God also warned the king not to harm Abraham “for he is a prophet”.

The command, “Touch not mine anointed or harm my prophets” in Ps. 105:15 refer to God’s sovereign protection over the powers threatening his chosen race. God promised to curse all those who curse Abraham and his seed – for they were the Lord’s anointed ones.

In Ps. 105 the words “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” has nothing to do with questioning pastors. It is about God preserving his chosen people when they were vulnerable.

We could apply Ps. 105:15 today where God’s Church is weak, threatened, and vulnerable. The verse gives us assurance that God’s purposes will stand firm. A comparable verse would be Romans 8: 28 “… in all things God works for the good of those who …. have been called according to his purposes.” God is preserving the Church of Jesus Christ and even the gates of hell cannot “TOUCH” her – that is, destroy her existence.

Conclusion:
The “touch not” verses are more likely to produce Christian submission if their biblical context is respected than it if they are extracted as prooftexts to solicit passive, unquestioned loyalty to spiritual authorities. After all, it is only when God’s people are assured of His protection, purposes, and support, that they can maintain the courage to live a life of Christian submission in a fallen and threatening world.

Diane

* Baker and Kohlenberger, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary.

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roadsign

Spitfire said:

There aren't nearly enough examples around of what a laid down life really looks like.

Interesting, someone said this to me yesterday. It wasn’t hard to agree. But then, it’s my natural bent to look at the empty half of the glass. God’s kingdom is indeed advancing today!!

As for me, my negativity is more my own fault than the fault of the “pathetic” Christianity around me. When I simply ask God to bring an exemplary Christian across my path, he often answers. It might be a real person, but it might also be a book of one’s life. In fact, it was through reading the autobiography of Madam Guyon that I got inspired to make this thread on Christian submission. What a story!! She exemplifies Christian submission. She was often ostracized and alone in her suffering. She endured unspeakable hostility from family, church people, powerful authorities etc – yet remained submissive to them all – in CHRIST. She could live that way because she had come to die to herself (through suffering). She was not afraid to lose her life. .... She shows a standard of Christian living that is rarely exemplified.

PS: Maybe it’s worth examining ourselves regarding our longing to see more “godly” people. Do we see ourselves as better than the average Christian, and it’s time more of them pulled up their socks – up to our level. Or is it because we want those kind of people to help us be more submissive followers of Christ.

PS2: We can't live on secondhand faith. Just maybe God wishes us to grow through desert experiences. There we die – and then we gain the ability to submit to the “weaker” brother – to encourage him rather than kick him into “shape”.

Diane

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roadsign


We live in a society where “self” is the mighty king (or queen). We are culturally conditioned to expect everything to bow down to the all-important “self”. Even Christianity has adopted itself to our individualism. The church strives to accommodate the “self” – and we demand that it submit to our “self” ..... rather than the reverse. (That's why we grumble when it doesn't measure up to our expectations - right?)

But the “self” must die an ignoble death in order to live vibrantly in its new identity - as a member of the bigger Body. The process is not without pain and humiliation. Perhaps you'd like to share a personal example.

It is only through death to self that I can come to perceive myself, not merely as an individual at the center of my existence, but as a member of a vast kingdom – the kingdom of God –the real Church. Then I can accept that the purpose for my existence, trials, and all my circumstances is bound up in the purpose for God’s Church.

Notice that the following words are found in the middle of a biblical context about suffering.

28 “… in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”

You really need to read all of Romans 8 to see the fuller picture – and how you fit in.

Here’s the good news: Since God has promised to preserve His Church to the end, it doesn’t depend on me and even the preservation of my life. That’s a relief - really! I can abandon my life in Christian submission. It's all for the glory of God and his kingdom.

Here's the deal: My personal losses can bring gain for the Body of Christ. That’s a reason for rejoicing … oh….. and moving past any grief and self-pity over my many private deaths.

Could we not say that Christian submission is a win-win arrangement?


Diane

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roadsign


When God calls people to be his servants in the world, he zealously guards them as they walk in their destiny. The following examples demonstrate God’s protective hand on all who were called to fulfill God's purposes:

1) The Patriarchs and their families. (see earlier post)

2) King Saul.

3) Ruth. Boaz told Ruth, “I have told them not to TOUCH you”. Ruth 2:9 Boaz had cautioned his servants not to harm Ruth.

4) The broken and contrite - with the mark: “DO NOT TOUCH anyone who has the mark.” Ez. 6:6 These were the faithful - protected from divine judgment.

5)

6)

When we trust God’s sovereignty over his purposes, then we are free to accept a life of vulnerability. We are free to step away from our own self-devised/self-protective fortresses. As we trust God to be fully God then we can be fully human - and live a life of Christian submission. And we fulfill our destiny to be "holy and blameless in his sight" Eph. 1:4

PS What other examples demonstrate God’s protective hand?
The more we can think of, the better - right?

Diane

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DrewT

hi there. this is a great discussion!

I love Luke 23:25 where it says that Jesus was delivered to the will of evil (murderous) men.

I think that our flesh and the devil like to convince us that we need to "stand for the truth" in situations like that and not allow evil people to have their way with the children of God. Matthew 16:21-23 for example.

but God's wisdom is to let evil overcome good for a time so that, in the end, He can show that the strength He has to accomplish His will is greater than the strength of men(both evil and good)to accomplish their own.

there is an excitement in true submission because it is filled with faith. I know that when I take this step I'm stepping out of God's way so that He can act with power and make Himself known.

Jesus rose from the grave. halleluyah!

Drew

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DrewT

I also like how when you post something on sermonindex it says "thanks for your submission". don't you find that encouraging?!

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roadsign

Hello Drew, and welcome! I see this is your first post here. I trust that you will hang around and bless SI with your fine contributions – as I am blessed already. Like in this bold statement:

I think that our flesh and the devil like to convince us that we need to "stand for the truth" in situations like that and not allow evil people to have their way with the children of God.

I agree. This may be more about standing against evil. There seems to be a tendency for the people of God to use their power (whenever they have it) to “take a stand” against evil - as their first calling. Insurmountable damage has been done in the name of God as a result of this unbiblical ambition. They are trying to pull out the weeds, but the wheat gets damaged – just as Jesus warned. Perhaps it is fear and anxiety that obscures Jesus’ warning. After all, evil is intensely threatening. Our natural flesh tries to attack it – just like Peter did when he tried to decapitate the soldier at Jesus’ arrest. Peter couldn't submit to the work of evil.


but God's wisdom is to let evil overcome good for a time so that, in the end, He can show that the strength He has to accomplish His will is greater than the strength of men(both evil and good)to accomplish their own.

Another insightful point. It's like when ancient Israel was required to settle among the Babylonians and accept their captivity graciously. They were required to submit rather than resist. Their unwillingness to listen just proves your point.

Don't you think the point you raise bears directly on our attitudes regarding the growing “Muslim occupation”? Do you think God desires to use this very "occupation" for his glory - and to restore the blessing of Christian submission?

there is an excitement in true submission because it is filled with faith. I know that when I take this step I'm stepping out of God's way so that He can act with power and make Himself known.

Looking forward to more of your posts, Drew,

Blessings,

Diane

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DrewT

hi Diane, thanks for your reply.

I think that in preparing for the end we need to keep this scripture in mind - Daniel 7:21-22. whatever tribulations that come will be very disappointing for the Christians who believe that they should always appear stronger than the darkness of this age. lawlessness will abound and there's nothing we can do to change that.

as for our attitudes, I wonder how much of it has to do with a self-condemning heart (1 John 3:18-21).

is it because we aren't genuinely loving others in deed and in truth that we don't have confidence toward God in this situation? is it because we aren't practicing true love that we feel the need to stand up for God and win His approval back? I don't know. but I wonder.

Drew

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roadsign

“ …not looking to your own interests but … to the interests of the others.” Phil. 2:4

I need to become more submissive in my use of speech. In fact that is now a piercing conviction (thanks to this topic). Admittedly, I am passionate about conversing on theological matters –the things related to God. But my writing and talking – as insightful as it may be to myself – might be nothing more than a blank blip to others.

I find it easy to get cynical about how “dull people are”. But that judgment is nothing more than my own lofty arrogance. Here I am dreadfully un-submissive. I am exalting myself above others. And I am not submitting to my calling – to be a light for Jesus. Not only that, it can leave me feeling lonely and isolated.

That sense of isolation helps spark my craving to converse in a context where I can freely use four-syllable theological terms. That’s one reason why SI is such a delightful oasis. People here actually dialogue on those grand terms. That is so refreshing!

However, there is a darker side at work too: My yearning to converse in this common language also conceals my conscience from any conviction. God hasn’t called me into a fortress of peers, or any place where a group of us can reinforce our sense of community in this way. That, in fact, can become Babel-Tower-ish. And I admit, I instinctively resist being dispersed among those who don’t speak my own “language”. No doubt this is a fear response as opposed to a faith response. Perhaps it relates to Drew's question:

Is it because we aren't genuinely loving others in deed and in truth that we don't have confidence toward God in this situation?


God’s glory pierces a light into my conscience and I realize that in my speech the burden must lie with me – not the recipient. It is my Christian duty to step away from my own experiential world and enter that of the other. I must move off of my own “map” and on to their “map”. I need to see through their eyes, not merely my own. This is Christian submission. This is love. And without love I am merely a “sounding gong”. And my speech is nothing more than what spills out from the “stuff” going on in my own head - with little listening and reflecting on the words or the worldview of the other.

Thankfully God has been using specific people to teach me this important truth about submission: But it’s not the highly knowledgeable, not the systematic theologians, not the seminarians (how’s that for a big word!) It is those who, in this very area are a lower “status” than I am. Yes, it is my darling little granddaughters! ( By the way, “The Preschooler’s Bible” is stellar in the way it uses language to convey mighty theological concepts about God. The girls get it! And they love hearing it – in story after story!)

God is also using the unsophisticated evangelical ladies in our discussion (unorganized chat) group. Yesterday he used two Mainline church congregations where I preached – the one with mostly seniors, and the other mostly kids.

There is little difference! Old or young, churched or unchurched, evangelical or mainline - few around me can define “sanctification” or even “salvation”. But these are the people to whom I must submit – by using speech that makes the good news of God accessible to the core of one's being. I can cling to Jesus’ promise, “Lo, I will be with you to the end”.


Diane

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roadsign

Drew said:

Whatever tribulations that come will be very disappointing for the Christians who believe that they should always appear stronger than the darkness of this age. lawlessness will abound and there's nothing we can do to change that.

Yes. The assumption that we should be stronger than the present evil sets us up for defeat. And so can the assumption that the evil in our day is a sure sign of Christ’s imminent return. That can distract us away from our responsibility towards relationships. Luther, for example, was convinced that Christ was about to return, and since it looked like the Jews were not turning to Christ, he justified retaliation against them. Luther’s failure to exercise Christian submission toward the Jews in his later life put a black mark on his life story.

I think that in preparing for the end we need to keep this scripture in mind - Daniel 7:21-22.

Here’s the text:
“… this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days arrived and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Most High. Then the time came for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. Daniel 7:21-22.

Diane


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roadsign


I believe the best way to counteract the misuses (and abuses) of the word “submit” is to dig into scripture. For example, the epistle of 1 Peter uses the words “submit/ submissive” several times. The epistle includes other repeated ideas which can help clarify the meaning of “submission”.

For example, the phrase: “in the same way” is found 3 times, as well as the words “like minded”.
What is this “same way”?
How does this address Christian submission?

There are several phrases that contain the word “good” – such as: “good lives”, “good deeds”, “doing good”, “do good”, “continue to do good”, and similar words: “an example”, “behaviour”.* What kind of behaviour/life style is implied in these words?

What other themes are prominent in 1Peter – and how do they relate to Christian submission?

What do other Bible translations offer here?

How does 1 Peter agree with other scriptures that touch on the theme of submission?

Just some preliminary thoughts to chew on….. for any I who may wish to jump in…..

* NIV, © 2010

Diane

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roadsign

Summery of 1 Peter:

Christian submission was a costly calling for the recipients of Peter’s first epistle. They were exiles scattered in a threatening world. They were foreigners and aliens prone to suffering for their faith. Peter encouraged them by reinforcing their status with God as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood” in his eternal kingdom - with a glorious inheritance yet to come. They were to view their present disadvantages in the context of God’s grand purpose and plan, which was foreshadowed long ago in the past, and was now their joyous hope for the future.

In spite of their trials, they were to persist in their high calling: TO BE HOLY.(1:15) Even in their vulnerability and suffering, they were to abandon sinful ways (such as hypocrisy and fear) and order their lives as servants of all – in Christian submission – to “love one another deeply”. Christ was their supreme example – he who submitted even to evil people: “He did not retaliate; he made no threats.” 2:23 Christ refused to assert power over them.

Submission was to be a free offering; and it was to be impartial. Even those in disadvantaged situations – be they wives with unbelieving husbands, or slaves with cruel masters - all were required to live submissively. In other words, they were always to DO GOOD towards others – be they superiors or subordinates.

How that looked in practice would vary. We read: “Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, 4:10 Their humble servanthood towards others was the means to “glorify God”

Does this summery uphold Jesus’ teachings … other scriptures…? How or how not?

Other observations?

How does 1 Peter apply to God’s people today - say, in the West?

Diane

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roadsign


“They [women of old] submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord.” 1 Peter.3:5, 6

Of all the OT women from which to select as a model of wifely submission, Peter chooses Sarah. Yet how many husbands would covet her style of “submissiveness” – as we see her in Genesis: Sarah was the instigator of family trouble – exactly because of what we would consider a lack of submission. She urged Abraham to have a child through Hagar - rather than wait in faith.

When Sarah was tormented by Hagar, she blamed Abraham. Furthermore, she was an ungracious mistress towards Hagar. Yet it was Hagar, who in her distress, obeyed God’s words, “Go to your mistress [Sarah] and submit to her”. 16:9

When Abram became distressed about the unrelenting family turmoil, he was told by God: “Listen to whatever Sarah tells you…” 21:11 In other words, submit to her. [NB: This submission was appropriate because God’s purposes stood firm.]


The two times we see Sarah obeying Abraham were not stellar marks on their story: when she complied with his plot of deception - inspired by fear. That resulted in the need for God’s “Touch not!” intervention measures. (see earlier post, “Touch not!)

Furthermore, we never do see Sarah calling Abraham, “lord”!


Some questions to ponder:


How did Sarah ultimately reflect Peter’s portrayal of godly submission?

Was it that she had more positive qualities than the negative ones we see in Genesis?

Did Peter have access to historical literature of the patriarchs that we do not have?

What do commentaries say on this matter?


Diane


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roadsign

What about Sarah – our dear mother in the faith? The manner in which she serves as our model of wifely submission still baffles me. Yet Sarah is upheld, not only by Peter, but also by Isaiah and the writer of Hebrews. That cautions me to withhold judgment based on the few anecdotes found in Genesis. The biblical writers clearly saw something that eludes my dim eyes. Could it be that they saw this:

Sarai demonstrates submissiveness in how she remains loyal to her husband in his calling. She willingly leaves the securities of her life as she has known it – her families, friends, and cultural familiarities. She launches out into the unknown – with God as her only assurance. Both Sarah and Abraham go through difficult tests of faith. Both fail several times. It is through the failures that their faith grows strong. The ultimate test is the call to sacrifice Isaac – and they pass with flying colors. The biblical silence regarding Sarah’s response to that event is surely a mark of her quiet faith – her restful assurance in God’s promises. Was this "the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit" that Peter describes in 3:4?


Note, Peter does not suggest that we copy Sarah’s behaviour as we see in Genesis. Instead, Peter writes: “You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.”

Sarah is our mother in the faith – even as her husband, Abraham, is our father in the faith: “the father of all who believe” Rom. 4:11

Our Christian submission is the evidence of this faith: doing what is right and not shrinking back in fear.

Diane

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sermonindex

It is easy to follow Christ in America. It is easy to submit to him and think we are paying a high price for following Jesus. I know there are those who dispute this. But think. You can go to church and not have the secret police lock your building up. For that matter you can worship freely and not worry about the authorities coming in and breaking up your service. You have the freedom to read a book called the Bible and the luxory to debate it and which translation to read. You don't need to worry about the government siezing your Bibke and burning it. You have the freedom to get on this forum and debate the high cost of submission. It is easy to follow Christ in America.

But when you look at places like N. Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Eritrea, etc. Do we really understand the high cost of submission? Do we really understand what it is to follow Christ even at the expense of giving our lives for him? Do we know what it is to live with a death sentence hanging over us each fsy?

If we be truly honest with ourselves the answer is no. At least I don't. I pray for the persecuted but in a country where freedom is so rich I cannot readily identify with their sufferings.

Will we dare to pray that God teach us the sufferings of Christ? Can we say with Jesus not my will but your will be done when faced with the cross. For hear lies the true cost of submission.

Blaine

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roadsign

Blaine points out:

.. .you can worship freely…. You have the freedom to read a book called the Bible … and which translation to read. …You have the freedom to….

Blaine, It’s easy to add to your list! You also have freedom to select your church. If you don’t like yours, there are plenty others. You decide where you can serve best. I wonder -- is this a freedom to submit to God or a freedom FROM God? Your own preferences may actually be in charge – not God.

I agree that we cannot comprehend the cost of submission, being so sheltered from persecution. Here's where I’m not sure if religious freedom is necessarily better or worse than its absence. The ease in which we can slip out of costly commitment or suffering could be a form of distress in itself – at least, if we crave to be fully surrendered. A pastor once cautioned me: “You can’t put the nails into your own hands.” That’s merely self-flagellation. But it is a way to feel better about your spiritual condition – especially if you fear you are not sufficiently died to the old nature.

… not worry about the authorities coming in and breaking up your service

Indeed, we don’t want authorities to mess with our lives! Here in the West we actually see a massive bucking of authority. Perhaps church hopping is a symptom of this.

It is interesting that you should raise the issue of authority. I’m working on a blurb about authority and submission - which may relate here.

Can we say with Jesus not my will but your will be done when faced with the cross. For hear lies the true cost of submission.

Yes! The cross performs the work of death to the autonomous self. And that’s the beginning place for authentic Christian submission in human relationships, where we are free to persevere in the costly and messy work of Christian submission.

Diane


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roadsign

Many of us today are concerned about the prevalence of deception in spiritual authorities. That makes us increasingly skeptical about trusting them. As a solution, some suggest, “We just need to listen to the Spirit. God is our authority.” There is truth in this solution. Yet the devil’s lies ride on the backs of truth. This resolve to simply follow the Spirit’s voice can be naïve and dangerous. We do not know how deeply we can be deceived by counterfeit voices of the Spirit. When we think we are submitting to God and it seems very right, we may be submitting to our own assumptions, expectations, emotions, distorted rationale, or other convincing voices.

In this respect our human authorities have a purpose in God’s design. We already know that submission to established authorities is a way of preserving order and of shining the gospel. God also uses our authority figures to confirm his purpose and will for us. And, notably, authorities can help counteract our bent toward deception and individualistic ambition. I give a two examples – a bad one and a good one.

The bad example:

When this woman in my former church learned that she had cancer she resolved to simply trust God for her healing – through her word of faith. She would not seek medical intervention, and instead contacted a faith healer. Interestingly, he instructed her - by letter - to submit to her husband, her church, and her doctor on this matter. She did none of that. She did not tell the church of her cancer, and she did not follow to her husband’s instruction to see the doctor. She assumed that she was following the Spirit. She died - leaving behind an embittered family. Her cancer was easily treatable when she first knew of it. Her authority figures could have helped prevent the tragedy.

The good example:

Jackie Pullinger felt strongly that God was calling her to be a missionary, and experienced many validations. But God wasn’t clear as to where she should go. She approached her minister, and Anglican priest, who confirmed her call and encouraged her to simply get on the boat and trust God to guide her further. But at first her unbelieving parents were skeptical. She writes, “So I prayed; and then one evening I heard them convincing each other that it was all right.” Pg 32

Jackie’s autobiography of her ministry among some of the world’s worst outcasts is written in her book, ‘Chasing the Dragon”. There you see that she had learned the way of Christian submission - not only in relationship to authorities – but also to those whom she served – as a spiritual authority in the lives of these troubled young men in the Honk Hong ghetto.


A thought: It’s been said: “If you can’t be UNDER authority, you can’t BE an authority.” How does that play out in the Christian life?

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"“If you can’t be UNDER authority, you can’t BE an authority.” How does that play out in the Christian life?"

Our deacon used to say that if you want authority, you have to be under authority.

To be under authority means you are acting under another's power, will, and protection - like you are the one to whom authority has been delegated to. You are expected to fulfill a job because you were entrusted with that responsibility and power to do so. Obedience to one greater then you is essential in order for this to work.

BTW, in Genesis 18:12 Sarah refers to her husband as 'lord': "...my lord being old also?"

My understanding...

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To be under authority means you are acting under another's power, will, and protection - like you are the one to whom authority has been delegated to.

Thank you for your comments here, Ginnyrose. Of course we want to take into account the fact that humans have always had a tendency to take more than they may have – especially if they are positioned over others and have the power to get it. That could be true of parents over children, clergy over parishioners, employer over employee (or the reverse), husband over wife (or the reverse)…. etc.

How do we as Christians respond to those positioned over us who want more from us than they are rightfully allowed? What are the boundaries?

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I should have noted earlier that Jackie Pullinger did not have carte blanche authority (uncontested permission). Actually her dad saw no need to bring one's religion to another part of the world which already had their own religion. The Missionary Society strongly disapproved and criticized their minister for suggesting that Jackie launch out on her own as she did. Even in Honk Hong, the established church was not fully supportive of Jackie’s work – certainly at first. They did not want their sanctuary defiled by unruly and stinky drug addicts. That was when a spiritual leader came along and told Jackie she needed to create a church community herself for these people.

I am amazed at just how effectively God used authorities to validate his call on Jackie. Her trust was not in these people, but in God who worked through them for his purposes.

Compare that with the lady who defied authority. She was deceived about what she heard from the Spirit, and could not see that actually her faith was in her faith - and some questionable teachings. God could have worked through her authorities for her benefit - even though none of them were particularly supportive of miracles. Wouldn't you agree? Can't God work through any kind of authorities in the lives of those who have a truly submissive heart?

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Diane you are posing some valid questions that are going to upset the religious paradyne of many. But I would say yes. God can work through any authority to accomplish his will.

For those with a religious mindset they are taught that authority is in the religious structure. But if we walk in a saving relationship with Jesus then our authority comes from him, from his Spirit.

A brother in this forum started a thread with the question is it alright to dance? He wanted the opinion, the authority of men. My response was what was God saying to him. How was the Spirit leading him?

I remember when God moved in my heart to birth The Persecution Watch prayer call I was told by a pastor this ministry had no validity. Since I was not a member of a church, preferably his, God would not bless the call. Yet I saw we were under the authority of scripture to pray for the persecuted the csll was birthed and God has blessed it.

In the end each situation needs to be evaluated before God and obey those authorities he is using.

Blaine

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I remember when God moved in my heart to birth The Persecution Watch prayer call I was told by a pastor this ministry had no validity. Since I was not a member of a church, preferably his, God would not bless the call.

Blaine, I’m happy you shared these comments. They point us to the need for discernment regarding boundaries. Religious authorities have been notorious for resisting the Spirit through misuse of authority – since OT times. As in your example, they don’t necessarily know or respect the boundaries of their calling. Indisputably it is dangerous to require members to be dependent on their authorities, to make choices according to the leader’s wishes, or to necessarily agree with them.

On the other hand, we also see church members – either as little groups or as individuals, go and do their own thing quite autonomously. It weakens the church. It also gives harmful “authorities” a lot of followers – which further weakens the local church.

The question we must eventually come to terms with is this:

How do we practice Christian submission in relationship to authorities – in ways that preserve both our freedom in Christ and also our authentic servanthood in relationships?

How does scripture guide us?


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sermonindex

Very valid questions. I am not sure if there is one easy answer. Each issue of authority and submission may have to fleshed out with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Blaine

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One of the most insidious risks to the Christian Church is the belief that “I am right”. People who have this assumption lodged in their consciences are a hazard. They are like a person driving a car that has no brakes; and they don’t know it. These people may position themselves as authorities over others – and that makes them even more dangerous. They are our quack “speck” removers. Without any brakes – they might gouge far too deeply – and do not know it.

These kinds of people do not see a need to submit to corrective authorities. After all, they are right. However, their un-submissive nature also makes them un-submissive to those of lesser advantage – the “weaker brother”. Instead of practicing Christian submission, they “lord over” others. Sadly, they can always find gullible followers who surrender their minds to such “enlightened” authorities – assuming this to be Christian submission. But it is naive, compliant passivity – the kind that ultimately breeds totalitarianism.

You and I can potentially fit into this picture in any way, and in any kind of relational contexts – family, church, nation, or work place. This pattern can develop slowly over time and at any stage in our lives. If we don’t believe this to be possible for ourselves - then it has already begun to develop. Hardening has started to set in, and we are straying from our call to Christian submission. Symptoms of this hardening erupt most noticeably as strain in human relationships – family, church, and society.

Christian submission is a delicate “pearl” – and requires that we diligently protect and preserve it. I believe we can do this by learning to distinguish what belongs to “Caesar” (human authority) from what belongs to God.

It’s worth it - don't you think!


PS: Any suggestions for helpful scriptures?

Diane

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King Uzziah starts out his career doing “what was right in the eyes of the Lord”. However, over time he falls out of step with God. Scripture records how his submissive humility shifts into un-submissive pride.

We read in 2 Chronicles 26: “He sought God during the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of the Lord. As long as he sought the Lord, God gave him success….” 26: 5, 6

Can you see here the marks of godly submission? Uzziah submits to Zechariah who himself is submissive - to divine authority. Zechariah teaches Uzziah to fear God - in other words, submit to God as the ultimate authority to whom he is accountable. Uzziah humbly receives this teaching. He can see his need for God. As long as he seeks God, God blesses him.

But over time this all changes - for the worse. We read the words, “He had become very powerful”. A few verses later we read, “But after Uzziah became powerful, his pride led to his downfall.” :16 What follows is predictable. Uzziah loses his sense of boundaries. He has no brakes anymore, and so he oversteps his authority. He goes into the temple to burn incense. In other words, he takes over the priest’s job! Uzziah is now operating with absolute power. He exemplifies the saying:

“POWER TENDS TO CORRUPT:
AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.”

In Uzziah we can see how power and submissiveness are bound together. After Uzziah acquires power he becomes un-submissive. He sees himself as the ultimate authority. The temple priest, Azariah along with 80 other priests can see his problem, and they are deeply concerned. They courageously warn him, saying, “It is not right for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord. That is for the priests.” 26:18

But Uzziah has forgotten the lessons he learned from Zechariah early in his career. He stops fearing God; and he stops being submissive.

If Uzziah had any submissive streak left in him, he would have listened to the priests, and spared a tragedy. But since he believes he’s right, he gets angry with them. They are the trouble makers – all 81 of them! At this point God steps in and strikes him with leprosy. That is the only way to bring him down and arrest the unstoppable path of corruption.

Here, it would seem that God’s judgment is really an act of mercy.


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John Cage was a modern American composer who was controversial for his weird ideas. He liked exploring the sounds made by non-musical objects and chance procedures. In that way he makes an ideal object lesson for this thread topic.

John Cage was not particularly submissive to the established ways of music. He admitted he did not like piano as a child, and he had no use for harmony lessons. He said, “I certainly had no feeling for harmony”. And that is obvious! In the field of musical composition John Cage was his own authority.

One of his most famous compositions is a piano solo called 4’33”. An acclaimed pianist steps on the stage, sits at the concert grand piano and closes the lid. Then he remains silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds. This composition has been arranged for a large orchestra – and you can watch it on You Tube. The conductor begins the work and then all the musicians sit in silence. You are supposed to focus on the random sounds (which is mostly the audience breaking out in coughing between movements). At the end there is a rousing applause. Here’s the link – in case you want to waste your time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E
(actually it's an impressive performance! Over 2 million have watched this.)

Then there is John Cage’s symphony for twelve radios – where the performers run around on the stage to twist knobs and dials according to the score. The audience gets to listen to random radio sounds – crackles, hisses and all.

It may be worth checking out John Cage’s works on YouTube – and see just how pointless and unfocused “free” creativity can become when there is no submission to any basic fundamental standards. It’s like a kite broken free from the string. It doesn’t soar freely at all!

What if other disciplines functioned that way – health care …. engineering ….. law …… the Christian calling?

On a more orderly note, I include music that truly soars: the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel’s Messiah - which is performed in hundreds of places around the world every Christmas. Here’s two examples:

Choir of King’s College, Cambridge UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3TUWU_yg4s

Andre Rieu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RrdwElnTU&feature=related (quite a lively version)


Diane

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So basically what you have proven with the last two examples is that there is no "high COST of Christian submission" but rather that there is a "high benefit of Christian submission". Whatever a Christian may lose for Christ's sake has no inherent eternal value so how can it have a high cost? What he can and ought to lose though are things with negative eternal value, therefore if renamed from COST to BENEFIT the thread would be more accurately named.

OJ

ETA Remember Jesus paid it all, so there is no more paying to be done, just receiving.

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roadsign


So basically what you have proven with the last two examples is that there is no "high COST of Christian submission" but rather that there is a "high benefit of Christian submission".

Valid point, OJ! Still, wouldn't you say that we experience cost in this life, and the full benefit is still to come - at which time the cost will no longer be regarded as a cost? What about this illustration:

Rewards or Challenges: What do people prefer?

Many years ago, the great explorer, Sir Francis Drake, was attempting to recruit a number of young men for an upcoming exploration. He gathered them around and told the group that if they came with him they would see some of the most marvelous things their eyes could behold: sandy white beaches, juicy fruits, foreign peoples, priceless treasures, and gorgeous landscapes. And he told them that this wild adventure could be theirs if they came with him. Not one of them enlisted for the journey.
The next day, a different group came out. Sir Francis Drake told them that if they came with him, they would encounter storms that would terrify them to tears. Wild winds would hammer them and blow them off course for months. Water would frequently be scarce. At times, they would be so thirsty that their very souls would cry out for simply one drop of water. In short, danger would always be their constant companion. Drake concluded by declaring that if they could handle these things, the joys of exploration would exceed their wildest dreams. Every single one of them in the group joined Sir Francis Drake that day. Some did not even go home to say goodbye to their families. They just boarded the boat . . . eager for the journey.


OJ, I got thinking: The musicians in those performances enjoyed the benefits and rewards of performing; but much of their lives are lived on the side of sacrifice -all the work required to become a competent musician. From that perspective John Cage’s 4’11” was a farce – because it required no sacrifice, and it belittled the cost.

What do you think?

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Diane

Nice story, but it proves that man wants to work for what he has, and cannot readily accept a free gift.

It comes down to this. There is no cost for Christian submission, only a benefit. Either It has already ALL been paid on my behalf, or I must add some of my own payment (in the form of a cost) to what Christ has done. Note: those who were told to count the cost were not told that they should expect to find any cost. The only people who find COST are those who place higher value in what they may so-called lose, than they do in Christ whom they miss out on gaining. Paul counts EVERYTHING he “lost” as dung, which has no worth, and therefore is no cost. Had he placed value in what he had lost, he surely would not have counted it as dung. So the Christian when he counts the cost, finds out that there is no cost of any kind, only a benefit; but when the wannabe Christian counts the “cost” he considers it as a heavy burden that he must bear or some kind of contribution to his own salvation, and therefore to him it is a cost, not a benefit.

There is no cost of Christian submission, only a benefit.

OJ

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therefore if renamed from COST to BENEFIT the thread would be more accurately named.

Sure, let’s go for it! The thread title is changed from “The High Cost of Christian submission” to “The High Benefit of Christian Submission".

Still - wouldn’t you think that if we’re going to talk about “cost” in relative terms, we also need to talk about “benefit” in relative terms? After all King Uzziah saw great benefit in NOT submitting. For him submitting was too high a price: It meant losing power. The surrender of power and autonomy would have been the price he had to pay in order to experience the benefits from God.

And isn’t that foundational to Christian submission? In other words, unless one sees the benefit from a Kingdom point of view, the cost will always outweigh the benefit.

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Do not the above verses teach that there is a cost to be a disciple of Christ. Dietrich Bonhoffer wrote a book which has become a classic. The title of the book is"The Cost of Discipleship". Bonhoffer is quoted as saying when Christ bids a man to come to him, he bids him to come and die. That implies cost to me. The cost of my life.

Blaine Scogin

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I am not sure if OJ is indulging in semantics in the line of reasoning of " no cost." Seems like a theological argument rather than a practical Christianity argument. I believe when the Scripture say the following verse that there can be no doubt as to what it means practically and daily..............

And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever will save his life shall lose it, but whoever will lose his life for My sake, he shall save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world and loses himself, or is cast away?
(Luk 9:23-25)

The cross if the symbol of the greatest sufferings known to man. Each of us has a cross that is uniquely fitted for us, and we are not commanded to pick it up, it is a choice, and its a daily choice. Counting the cost is not only a Scriptural reality, it has been borne out down through the centuries in the lives of the the saints. How we respond to this call will determine the kind of walk we have in Christ. History records many of the heroes of the faith who determined to take up their cross and love not their lives unto death and who would not live the compromised life. What kind of life shall we live? Well, if one has a cross on their back they will certainly die to this world. The crisis of the age is a crossless Christianity.............. brother Frank

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So, should I change the title back?

Which one does the job better?


Diane

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Diane your thread. You go with what YOU think gets the job done. How about the high cost and benefits of Christian submission.

Blaine

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Do not the above verses teach that there is a cost to be a disciple of Christ.

No.

Dietrich Bonhoffer wrote a book which has become a classic. The title of the book is"The Cost of Discipleship". Bonhoffer is quoted as saying when Christ bids a man to come to him, he bids him to come and die. That implies cost to me. The cost of my life.

In Acts 20:24 Paul ranks that as no cost. Besides, you still have your life.

OJ

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Practically speaking Frank all these verses mean is that if someone places any value in that which they have left behind in going to Christ, that they have estimated very poorly.

Lot's of wood, hay and stubble may be lost, but nothing of value is ever lost in going to Christ!!

OJ

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You might lose some sin, some reputation, some what-you-thought were friends or whatever, but I daresay that none here could claim to have been cost anything of value in exchange for coming to Christ.

OJ

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Hey OJ, I have not read the whole of this thread so what I am saying may have already been said, but for instance, the Cost Of Discipleship is not just about coming to Jesus, its about the sermon on the mount which is adressed to the Disciples. Seeems like there are two seperate issues here, coming to Christ, and there is a cost to consider, your whole life. And then after one comes there is the cost of picking up your cross daily. It will cost you friends, family, reputation, place in this world and so on. Brother, if you came to Christ with no cost at all then perhaps you believe in cheap grace? One should count the cost in coming to Christ because the only way one can come is to give up one's whole life. Those who jump up and sign on the dotted line without a second thought to what it means, I doubth their salvation very much.

I believe that everyone would agree that there is nothing that we have that can compare to eternal salvation. Yet, Paul did not wake up one morning with this opinion, Paul said that he had " learned to be content." How do you think he learned brother? Do you think this was some kind of head knowledge for Paul? Its a mark of the gravity of the price paid that Paul could say that he counted what was extremly painful to him as " nothing,' or " dung," in comparison to what he had gained. The loss of reputation, the loss of family, the loss of heritage, the loss of everything that he held dear ultimately meant nothing to Paul in comparison to what he had gained, but he, as we, was no robot. By that same standard one would say that the loss of a saved loved one is nothing because we know where they are going , but anyone who has lived life and lost a loved one will tell you that their is suffering involved.

I have been married for 30 years Joe and I cannot imagine the pain of losing my wife, but I know the Lord would take me through. I do not expect to live a painless life, only a robot can live a painless life. Your answers just sound a litte too theological Joe. If you are old, like your name suggests, then I know that you have suffered in this life, one way or another. But I imagine, because of what you are sharing,that you count it all as nothing.

When Bonhoeffer wrote this book in the 30s, there was much cost involved in being part of the confessing church. Many were arrested and killed, many more "German Christians" kept their " heads down," and did not " rock the boat." Now brother, before one left the "German Christian Church," and joined the " Confessing Church,' one would have had to count the cost before submitting to the direction of the Holy Spirit. And it would certainly come with a cost, some were willing, some were not, but the decision determines the kind of walk that we have........brother Frank

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The loss of reputation, the loss of family, the loss of heritage, the loss of everything that he held dear ultimately meant nothing to Paul in comparison to what he had gained, but he, as we, was no robot.

No, he was no robot, but looking past this life is not being a robot. Paul knew that this life was only the beginning, in heaven his reputation would be exalted, his gain would be tremendous. I can tell you that after losing most of those things they were not worth what they were sold to be.

I have been married for 30 years Joe and I cannot imagine the pain of losing my wife

Ezek 24:16-18
16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down.

17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men.

18 So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.

This isn't theology, this is Ezekiel with a hope past this life, a full assurance of a higher hope than the here and now. This is how this is handled.

When Bonhoeffer wrote this book in the 30s, there was much cost involved in being part of the confessing church. Many were arrested and killed, many more "German Christians" kept their " heads down," and did not " rock the boat." Now brother, before one left the "German Christian Church," and joined the " Confessing Church,' one would have had to count the cost before submitting to the direction of the Holy Spirit. And it would certainly come with a cost, some were willing, some were not, but the decision determines the kind of walk that we have........brother Frank

To exit a God-forsaken hellhole to enter heaven doesn't sound like much cost. The problem is that those who were counting cost making them afraid of this were uncertain of whom they trusted. They invented a cost that wasn't there... When the cost is truly counted and found to be missing it is easy to put your head on the block.

I certainly have had my share of what you would consider "loss" as it were in this life, but looking back I can count it all as nothing but gain.

To quote Foxes Book of Martyrs here is the real benefit of Christian submission:

"O unhappy wretch, why would you buy a moment's ease at the expense of a miserable eternity!

She lost her head shortly after and entered a blessed eternity. If you read Foxes Book of Martyrs it is not a book full of sad endings, but a book full of happy endings.


OJ

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Hi Joe,

Here is the full quote about my wife, its quite a bit differt from your cut and paste.......

"I have been married for 30 years Joe and I cannot imagine the pain of losing my wife, but I know the Lord would take me through."

Brother, I know that the internet can be a bad way to communicate, but your answers seem devoid of love and compassion and the very real pain that comes with picking up ones cross. I understand and agree that there is nothing on this earth that is worth anything in comparison to eternity and what lies ahead, I am not sure you will find anyone on this forum who would disagree with that. I also apprecaite what you are saying about Foxes Book of Martyrs, I have read that book many times and these people are among the heroes of the faith, yet statements like this ..........

"To exit a God-forsaken hellhole to enter heaven doesn't sound like much cost," just sounds like bluster and bravado. To stand up against the Nazis took courage and guts and conviction. Everyone of us should beware when we stand lest we fall.......... bro Frank

And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have charity, I am nothing. And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am profited nothing.
(1Co 13:2-3)

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Friendship with Jrsus is costly. Faith alone saves. But saving faith is never alone. It is aleays accompanied by great sacrifice for Jesus

Blaine Scogin

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Well then Blaine I guess you are going to have to sing "Jesus paid it all" with a little modification like this "jesus paid some of it and I must pay the rest".

Good luck with that!


OJ

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Frank, I don't really much care what it 'sounds' like because that is just a matter of your hearing. What I am telling you is when you finally count the 'cost' of what you are actually losing in Christ it is nothing. And I have a life to back it up.

OJ

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Thank you all for your valid precautions! It’s good to keep each other in balance by presenting the other side of a point.

I do hope ye'all get a chance to browse through the content of this thread, and then you may agree with me that the original thread title, in itself, was a bit of a bunny trail. It should have been this: “The High Calling of Christian Submission”.

The essence of this thread is about our human relationships – lived out in this real world. We live our calling to Christian submission in a world of fallen people – where evil is far more powerful than we are, where our loved ones can hurt us, where the powers-that-be constantly try to rob us - even of our very heart. There are also hurdles within ourselves - like fear, the instinctive need for self-preservation and autonomy, and so forth.

The benefits of Christian submission are not readily experienced or discerned. Our short-sightedness constantly tempts us to cling to the immediate benefits of our choices – which cause us to fall short of our higher calling.

I believe the thread title as it now stands can help point us beyond the present experience (where we sense of losses and costs) – to the bigger picture of humanity and God’s kingdom – where the benefits are ultimately reaped.
Understanding the benefits can encourage us to surrender ourselves, ie "pay the price" - for the sake of others - and the ultimate glory of God.

In all this, the nagging question still faces us:

What can we legitimately give of ourselves to humans and what of ourselves belongs only to God?

Diane

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"jesus paid some of it and I must pay the rest".

OJ, I appreciate your concern about turning this into a works doctrine. A sacrificial life style might merely be a form of acetism. This is just another “bite” from the proverbial fruit in the Garden: It is another way to be "as God" - that is self -master and author of one's own salvation. In all this, the sinner still resists the ultimate surrender (“price”) – that is, abdicating the right to self-rule. Receiving Christ’s FREE gift requires a “price” that is too high – until one desires the ultimate benefit. (as you note)

A question: How is authentic Christian submission in human relationships different from an acetic form of submission (where the motive is to EARN God’s benefit, ie, salvation)?

Diane

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passerby

In all this, the nagging question still faces us:

What can we legitimately give of ourselves to humans and what of ourselves belongs only to God?

We submit to humans, institutions, or other personalities along the course of our submission to God.

As a side note, no one can demand us the 'master-disciple relationship' except God. And this, we should not also demand from others.

The original title of this thread was fine and appropriate. Jesus Himself told that we count the cost of following Him because He knows and understand pain and other physical suffering, the grief over loss of a loved one, the deep agony of drinking 'the cup'.

He understand that we humans are frail and are from dust. We do feel shame, we get lonely, we weep, we groan, we agonize over loss and pain. We get smitten, cast-out, sick, hungry, and desperate.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

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The original title of this thread was fine and appropriate. Jesus Himself told that we count the cost…

Passerby, I trust that my revised title does not undermine the realty of cost. Here’s my rationale for keeping it as is:

In an earlier post I noted that the devil’s lies (and temptations) travel on the backs of truths. That is equally true for the theology of “cost” as for “benefit”.

If SI was a prosperity gospel site, I would avoid the word “benefit”– because it could be interpreted according to material expectations. However, we are not a prosperity gospel site. Quite the opposite! Here perhaps, the greater temptation is to view “cost” as virtue in itself. The perceived “costs” - be that pain, agony, noble sacrifice, suffering, martyrdom-syndromes could become construed as proof that we are on the right track and then God should favor us.

In the prosperity camp it is the perceived “benefits” that prove one’s good standing with God. In our camp, it could become the perceived “costs”. It’s still the retribution principle: If I do right, then God is obligated to reward me (according to my expectations). And it becomes more about what I do than what God does.

Does that sound reasonable?

Perhaps it’s time to get a handle on the actual benefits of Christian submission in our relationships with others. Then the costs will come into perspective.

Diane

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Joe, you write..........

"What I am telling you is when you finally count the 'cost' of what you are actually losing in Christ it is nothing. And I have a life to back it up." But Joe, I already acknowledged that we agree on that point brother. When you write..........

"Frank, I don't really much care what it 'sounds' like" I believe that you are being truthful. We should always care how we are perceived because we represent the Lord to each other and to the world. God bless you Joe, I am very sure that you have had a tough life as you intimated......bro Frank


But go and learn what this is, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
(Mat 9:13)

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Here perhaps, the greater temptation is to view “cost” as virtue in itself. The perceived “costs” - be that pain, agony, noble sacrifice, suffering, martyrdom-syndromes could become construed as proof that we are on the right track and then God should favor us.

That would be the proverbial "hitting the nail on the head" Diane, very well put!

OJ

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It’s still the retribution principle: If I do right, then God is obligated to reward me (according to my expectations). And it becomes more about what I do than what God does.

Again well put. Both prosperity-gospel (preached elsewhere) and the martyr-gospel (preached here) fail in that both are judging the value of their system merely by the here and now. One says, because I am rich, things must be going well; the other says, because I am poor and struggling, things must be going well. Each is as carnal as the other.

OJ

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Brother do you know who Richard Wormbrandt is? Have you ever read his book Tortured for Christ? If you had you may understand the context of his statement I shared earlier.

You seem very bitter and angry. You may feel like you are justified oi that. I pray that you will find joy in Jesus. You may want to read Tortured for Christ. Richard Wormbrandt was a man who could have been bitter but he learned to love and forgive through his sufferings. He later years he lamented that he had not loved his enemies enough. Truly a man touched by God.

May your heart be so touched.

Blaine Scogin

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sermonindex

The 'blessed's in Matt 5:10-12 are benefits, not costs, even if the benefit is not presently realized. If one sees costs there, they are as deep in the opposite ditch as the prosperity gospel is in the first ditch.

OJ

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sermonindex

Already read it Blaine. Along with several thousand other historical Christianity books. One tends to read a lot when one doesn't have a TV.

Did you ever notice the difference between Pilgrim's Progress part 1 and part 2?

OJ

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sermonindex

Part 1 the cost and the toil of the Christian life were the emphasis.

Part 2 the benefit and the ease of burden of the Christian life were the emphasis.

The first part was written at the early stage of Bunyan's Christian walk, the latter written after he had passed through the fires and grown as a Christian. In the first he struggled to see past this troubling life, in the second he looked back at it.

OJ

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roadsign

Something to throw in the mix:

Because Christian Submission is an issue of morality, it may be worth comparing Christian submission with Kohlberg’s stages of moral development. The chart here shows how BENEFITS come into play. [Note how these age categories are idealistic: You could insert any age. I would add that Christianity, as practiced and promoted, can also fit any of the stages!]

Stage 0 EGOCENTRIC REASONING (3- 4 yo)
What's Right: I should get my own way.
Reason to be good: To get rewards and avoid punishments.


STAGE 1: UNQUESTIONED OBEDIENCE (5 yo approx )
What's Right: I should do what I'm told.
Reason to be good: To stay out of trouble.

STAGE 2: WHAT'S-IN-IT-FOR ME FAIRNESS (6- 9)
What's Right: I should look out for myself, but be fair to those who are fair to me.
Reason to be good: Self-interest: What's in it for me?

STAGE 3: INTERPERSONAL CONFORMITY (around 10- 16)
What's Right: I should be a nice person and live up to the expectations of people I know and care about.
Reason to be good: So others will think well of me (social approval) and I can think well of myself (self-esteem)

STAGE 4: RESPONSIBILITY TO "THE SYSTEM" (late teen)
What's Right: I should fulfill my responsibilities to the social or value system I feel part of.
Reason to be good: To keep the system from falling apart and to maintain self-respect as somebody who meets my obligations.

STAGE 5: PRINCIPLED CONSCIENCE (young adulthood)
I should show the greatest possible respect for the rights and dignity of every individual person and should support a system that protects human rights. (Here Diane would insert the word “freedom of conscience”)

Diane’s add-on:

GOD’S STAGE FOR US: CHRISTIAN SUBMISSION (spiritual re-birth and onward)
What’s right: I treat the other person in a way that we can both give and receive a taste of God’s grace.
Reason to be good: To facilitate harmonious relationships, healing, forgiveness and personal wellbeing. In this way God’s glory is manifested on earth (in humanity), and can be recognized as something desirable. God’s name is hallowed, and his kingdom is being built - in response to our prayers: “Thy Kingdom come”.


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passerby

The revised title of this thread is also just fine for me, it is just very rare to see a thread starter doing such revision.

Well it really depends on what you want to emphasize. Someone asked what is the difference between anatomy and physiology as they both touch body structures and functions. The answer is emphasis, the one on structures, the other one about functions.

Whether the emphasis is about the cost or benefits, it seems to me that the act of submission within such context is tainted with carnality. I am rather apt to think that Jesus submitted and obeyed God the Father for one thing, Love.

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sermonindex

Not so much lining out on that one Diane.

The young and/or immature focus on where they are, the mature focus more on where they are going. Same with Christianity, the lost along with the immature focus on where they ARE, the mature Christian's focus on where they ARE GOING! So present circumstances whether good or bad mean little to them.

oj

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sermonindex

Passerby writes.........

"Whether the emphasis is about the cost or benefits, it seems to me that the act of submission within such context is tainted with carnality. I am rather apt to think that Jesus submitted and obeyed God the Father for one thing, Love."

Nail on the head brother, love will always be the measure of a saint, always. It was for love that God sent His Son to the earth. As the Scripture in 1 Cor 13 states, we can know all things and even give our body to be burned, but if we do not have love then we have nothing. All the lessons learned, all the knowledge, all the perceived maturity is meaningless if it lies outside of the context of love.

I once knew a man in his 60s who had lived much of his life as an alcoholic. He had gotton sober 10 years previously. Now, you would think he would have compassion for other alcoholics, nothing could be further from the truth. He detested their weakness. He had conquered it and so should they ( and who would argue with that) but his experience had not produced love and compassion, only coldness and bitterness.

Life is a journey, and brothers and sisters are at various stages of that journey. There are babes and novices, there is the struggling and tere is mature saints. Yet what I love about Christianity is that no one you will ever meet has arrived. Thise who claim that they have arrived have just announced their imminent fall. We are continually tested along the way and the entry way to the throne of grace that Jesus secured is humilty..........brother Frank

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roadsign

The young and/or immature focus on where they are, the mature focus more on where they are going. Same with Christianity, the lost along with the immature focus on where they ARE, the mature Christian's focus on where they ARE GOING! So present circumstances whether good or bad mean little to them.

So true, OJ! And there are also the paradoxical truths: the equally valid opposites. As in these illustrations:

The medieval Crusaders were focused on their ultimate destiny and the glorious eternal rewards which they believed were attained by purging evil. This mission - to purge evil - has caused horrendous evils throughout Christianity.

Christian submission frequently gets eclipsed by this misguided long-range vision. It can be true for me too, like when my main objective is to remove the “speck” from my fallen brother’s eye. And I'm so busy with my mission that I don't see how I cause damage. People might say that I meant well, my heart was in the right place, and that's what matters. In reality my heart was not at all with my brother, and I have failed to be in the PRESENT with him.

That raises the other paradox: One of our most difficult tasks, I think, is to stay in the PRESENT when ministering to others. When we cannot stay in the present, then we cannot empathize with them where they are at (rejoice or weep with them). We don’t hear them well. And we can’t receive from them. We try to “minister” from a distance – an emotional, spiritual, and psychological distance. Does this not sound like Job’s three friends?

That’s where I find myself so often. It is the area where I need growth – or rather, death. I see this as a faith journey through which I gain an ever-widening vision of God’s kingdom - how it actually does grow.

… no one you will ever meet has arrived.

Isn’t this where our submission to others is a HIGH BENEFIT? It matures us and serves as a check on our waywardness. And that benefits the Kingdom of God.

Diane

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roadsign

Whether the emphasis is about the cost or benefits, it seems to me that the act of submission within such context is tainted with carnality.

I thought that too, and then I thought my title should be “The High CALLING of Christian Submission”. And then we could get on with a discussion about the practice of submission itself.

HOWEVER...

Maybe it’s important to think about motives – because motives determine one's choices – at ANY level of maturity. Let’s admit, we all make choices in terms of cost and benefit - all the time. And that is scriptural!! Even Paul did it, David, Jesus…. Thinking about cost/benefit is not carnal in itself! The reverse may be true! You could get ripped off!

Here’s the real issue as I see it: Any person’s values regarding cost and benefit is going to be determined by their stage of moral maturity.

Consider the Morality Chart (two posts ago): What happens when you apply the following questions to the various stages:

1) How does a person in this level of moral development view cost and benefit?
2) How does this color his/her interpretation of: “Submit”?
3) How will a church body which is primarily in this stage apply teachings on submission?

“Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise…” Eph. 5:15

Diane

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roadsign

“You have brought HARM to yourselves.” Jer. 25:7

Spiritually, our present society resembles Jeremiah’s society. In both cases the people reject God, and the societal effects are similar: distress in human relationships. The various examples given by Jeremiah all reflect a lack of godly submission to one another. The spiritual leaders reject godly authority (prophets); and so they fail to care for the “sheep”. Those with power use it to exploit others. Sadly, the people who bear the cost of this societal un-submissiveness are those lower on the grid of human power, like widows and orphans - the vulnerable ones. Disraeli, a former Prime Minster of England, believed that the strength of a society is measured by how it takes care of its marginal people. What about our society?

Today a large segment of our population is particularly affected by our societal sins. These are the ones who are paying the price for our societal neglect of relationships. They are our adolescents. Our entire society bears the cost of the harmful effects – disorders such as substance abuse, promiscuity, eating disorders, depression, suicide, and so on. Consider these statistics:

21 % of U.S. children ages nine to 17 have a diagnosable mental or addictive disorder associated with at least minimum impairment.
20 % of students report having seriously considered suicide in the past year.

In response to the rising rates of mental problems and emotional distress among U.S. children and adolescents a massive study was launched. As a result, a group of 33 children's doctors, research scientists, and mental health and youth service professionals produced a report called “HARDWIRED TO CONNECT: The Scientific Case for Authoritative Communities”. A brief summery is found here: www.americanvalues.org

The researchers concluded that “the human child Is HARDWIRED TO CONNECT – that is:

1. Hardwired to connect to other people
and
2. Hardwired to connect to moral meaning and to the possibility of the transcendent

They concluded that the cause of the crisis of American childhood is a lack of connectedness:
1. close connections to other people
and
2. deep connections to moral and spiritual meaning

The report noted that the use of pharmaceuticals and the reliance of professional services for the more serious cases is insufficient. What is needed for our children and youth are, “AUTHORITATIVE COMMUNITIES - groups that live out the types of connectedness that our children increasingly lack.”

Through a Skype interview, I had the privilege of hearing Dr. Kovner-Kline, the adolescent psychiatrist who headed up the commission. I found her comments to be intensely encouraging – from my Christian perspective. I see top experts validating the very purpose for the church and for God’s high calling of Christian submission, that is, the very means to valid connectedness.

The BENEFIT of Christian submission must not be under-estimated. It preserves the church – both in the present and for the future. It has repercussions throughout society. It is the way to reach and spare the next generation. Conversely, the COSTS of our failures in human relationships are devastating – just as it was in Jeremiah’s day:

“But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord.
Are they not rather HARMING THEMSELVES, to their own shame?”
Jer. 7:19

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roadsign


“If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other Gods TO YOUR HARM, then I will live in this place...” Jer. 7:5

We can easily relate this scripture to today’s adolescent crisis. Many children and youth have absentee fathers or they live with single mothers. Many have suffered abuse or neglect from fathers. Oh yes, it could be argued that mothers are also guilty. But, according to a Christian adolescent counselor, it is the fathers who have had the far greater power to hurt. And that hurt has driven so many teens towards the harmful habits characteristic of their age.

As God’s people, let us move beyond our own experiences and enter the world of our young people. Then we will see the threat to the future of our society. We will find ourselves crying out, as did the ancient Israelites: “How ruined we are! How great is our shame” Jer. 9:19

And then, as God’s people, we will reclaim the ancient hope – as recorded by Malachi:

“He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to the fathers, or else I will strike the land with a curse. ” Malachi 4:6

This is the very last verse of the Old Testament! Is that not significant?!


Questions:

What is it about Christ’s promised salvation that makes Christian submission possible – in a way that restores the most vital expression of Christian submission: the father’s heart towards his children - and the children to their father?

How does the failure to embrace salvation threaten the “land” with a curse?

Diane

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passerby

If one is going to use Kohlberg's Stages of moral development, then Christians will score low.

Relativism, secularism, humanism, and individualism underlie Kohlberg’s theory. Like that of Piaget's 2-stages of moral development, it does not recognize the existence and pre-eminence of God.

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jonthony

The HIGH BENEFIT of Christian Submission?

I find the benefits beautiful; as beautiful as the man that saw something in a field, hid the field, SURRENDERED ALL, and went back to purchase the field. For the benefit of surrendering all to Yeshua HaMashiach, is that when God is glorified? ...the branch connected to the vine is also glorified too!! There is the joyful benefit of knowing the reality of life, and being awakened into truth... and the benefit of letting go of the material realm, and trusting the God of the word in the unseen realm, for He is truth. (Matt. 13:44, John 15:4, 2Cor. 4:16-18).

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roadsign

If one is going to use Kohlberg's Stages of moral development, then Christians will score low.

Yes, Passerby. This is just the point! Kohlberg’s Stages, as idealistic as they may be, are painfully humbling for professing Christians. As I ponder over them, I find myself seeing how my hidden thoughts so often reflect immature morality. My best efforts are stained with these more childish ways of thinking and reasoning: what’s in it for me, my own interests above another’s, my longing for approval, what benefits the system, and so forth. Yet to the extent that I think like a child and reason like a child (from 1 Cor. 13:11) I fall short of the mark: the high calling of Christian submission towards others.

It seems that the church has had a tendency to accept immature standards of morality – and then to exalt them as virtue! When the substandard becomes the norm, over time it’s hard to see anything wrong with it – especially when it is operational within ourselves.

It would be worthwhile re-reading the stages of morality (a few posts back) – and this time considering how church practice and ideologies have often reflected these childish stages of moral reasoning. Perhaps that can help us see more clearly how we have “scored low”, and in that way failed others, and contributed to our present crisis of childhood.

Is it not significant that secular theorists are able to put forth a standard of morality which the people of God cannot accept or even rise above?

Like that of Piaget's 2-stages of moral development, it does not recognize the existence and pre-eminence of God.

Therefore, when the Spirit uses the secular world to convict us …. well… that is all the more humbling! It is just like God to use the unholy in the world to expose our own un-holiness – as Jesus did with the Good Samaritan parable. It is a way that God exposes our pride and breaks through our collective blindness.

…. And all that for our BENEFIT – and the BENEFIT of the Kingdom of God!

1 Cor. 13:11 “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. …
… But the greatest of these is love.”

O Lord, work in your people, that we may put behind the ways of childhood – and put on the greatest of all virtues: love - practiced through Christian submission towards one another.

Diane

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jonthony

All we can do is pray "God will work on" Post Modern-Western Christianity. I agree, they are caught up in a whole lot of paganism, and they don't even know the foundations of most of the holiday's, celebrations, and banqueting they themselves are involve in. They are just following the religious propaganda and leaders. Pray they put the childish world behind, crucify it, and be crucified to the world.

Isaiah 29:9-13 "Cry for them"

"Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

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roadsign


“He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children
and the hearts of the children to the fathers,
or else I will strike the land with a curse.”
Malachi 4:6

These prophetic words place human relationship and curse as opposites. We can easily see this to be true. Broken relationships are pervasive in our land. We see and feel the sad effects. The curse of wounded relationship touches every aspect of human existence - from quiet divorce to violent war. The curse underlies all our problems – from our economic crisis, to environmental concerns, to health care, and on it goes.

BECAUSE THE ROOT PROBLEM IS RELATIONAL, THE SOLUTION MUST BE RELATIONAL.

The only remedy for our “incurable wound”, this curse on the land, is restored relationship. And that is precisely God’s cure. The closing verse of the Old Testament promises this hope. Malachi prophesied that a coming “Elijah” figure would restore the most fundamental and influential of human relationships: The father to his children.

Jesus Christ died and rose so that by his Spirit alienated sinners could be restored to their heavenly Father - and be adopted as children in his family. That relationship is foundational to human relationships. Here the family members need not be divided from each other as in the world – by to power, status, gender, education, and so forth. These family members find their true identity and worth in Christ, and then there is no need to seek it in sinful ways - by manipulating, competing, demanding – or in other words, being un-submissive towards others.

It is Christ who restores human relationships. He empowers a father to love his children, and his children to honor their father. The repercussions of restored human relationships ripple throughout society – in all relational contexts. The love of the Heavenly Father becomes tangible in fallen humanity though our practice of Christian submission.

Diane

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roadsign


Pray they put the childish world behind

Jonthany, I like this point, and am going to run with it – only I would replace the word “world” with the word “ways”.

The 1 Corinthians 13 love passage, where we find our reference to childish ways, is not about worldliness. It is aimed to counteract an immature level of morality in the church. The Corinthian believers were zealous to practice the gifts of the Spirit, but their zeal ran short of the mark. The gifts were eclipsing their calling to love one another.

Paul's great Love Chapter is one of our best expressions of Christian submission. Here is the way we are to relate with others. This is the bench mark of mature morality.

“Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

1 Cor. 13: 4-7


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roadsign

“From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.” Luke 12:52

One of the most distressing sources of suffering is fractured family relationships. Yet Jesus cautioned his followers to expect divided families. Some will accept Christ; some will not. This divide existed in Jesus’ own family. It existed in Jeremiah’s family. Jeremiah was warned: “Your brothers, your own family even they have betrayed you.” Jer. 12: 6

While this domestic divide causes suffering in itself, much needless distress is caused by ideal expectations. A zealous Christian member may try to impose his wishes on all the others, or he may withdraw from them with a smug self-righteousness.

Perhaps a wife cannot accept her husband’s unbelief. She stews about it; she manipulates, nags him, and in that way drives him away from her. She may actually be burdened with guilt and despair, assuming that she cannot fulfill her calling because he is not being the godly husband – like Jesus who gave himself for the church. So she transfers her guilt onto him.

Perhaps a father exasperates his rebellious daughter by controlling her rather than trying to understand her and feel for her. And so he drives her further into rebellion. He may feel justified, because, after all, she is the one in the wrong. She is the problem person in this family.

The biblical teachings on submission help us manage the divisions in our families. Notice that the onus is always on the redeemed ones to facilitate harmonious relationship:

“If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” Rom. 12:18

“If your enemy is hungry feed him, if he is thirst, give him something to drink.” Rom. 12:20

“Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.”

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” 1 Peter 4:8

Ephesians 5,6.....

These are biblical ways of reducing distress in family relationships. This makes it better for everyone. In this context the lost can find Christ, and the immature can grow into Christlikeness. And God’s people can be free from unnecessary turmoil.

In this way the glory of God touches down on a lost world – and the kingdom of God advances.

Diane

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roadsign


The art of getting along is not one of humanity’s better gifts, and we all realize it. Yet, even if we accept the importance of relationship, we find it difficult to converse about it – at least, in meaningful and helpful ways. It seems we don’t have a particularly good working vocabulary for that. Perhaps that is because we have relegated that area to the experts, the professionals who must deal with the effects of broken relationships.

It is my belief that if we wish to see healing and restoration, we must elevate the value on relationship and the importance of Christian submission.

According to Jesus our manner of relating with others serve as a marker of our authentic relationship with God. In other words it’s the proof of salvation. On the Day of Judgment we will hear the words, “Whatever you did for one of the least of these, you did for me” Matt. 25:26

Stuart Holden draws out this same point, in the article “The Peril of Self-Deception” which Greg Gordon recently posted. I’ve extracted a segment:

God judges us [according to] the quality of our relationship.
What is our relationship to others?
What is our relationship to the church of God? Are we critics, or are we working members?
What is our relationship to those in our own homes?
What is our relationship to the world outside, to those with whom we come into contact day by day?

It is on this wise that God judges us.


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’” Matt. 26: 41-43


As long as we are positioned at a distance from another (not merely physically, but also emotionally and psychologically) we cannot understand or empathize with the person’s real need. This is symptomatic of our distance spiritually from Christ; and Christ’s love is not freely operational in us. Is that not correct?

As we let God be God in our lives, we will remain in our humble position in relation to others. And from there we can touch their lives in meaningful ways.

“But the greatest of these is love” 1 Cor. 13:13

May God work in us to conform us to his image.


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roadsign

Several years ago, I endured a church experience that left me distressed to the core. The pastor was making destructive choices, and paralyzing the church. Finally one day I cried out to God with the words, “God, what do you want me to do about it!” I opened my Bible, and to my amazement I suddenly saw the words, “Minister to the minister” superimposed by the Spirit. I was shocked. A profound conviction swept over me, and I could suddenly see my utter lack of concern for the pastor himself. I had needed church to work right for MY sake. My hard work in the church was mostly for my own sake: so that I could be accepted and feel righteous. My good deeds served my own interests and had little to do with Christian submission. I was locked in an immature stage of morality, and had never realized it. Thankfully God saw it! It was time to grow up, and God was using a “defective” pastor and my desperation for that purpose.

That day when I saw my naked shame before God, I cried out: “God do anything, anything in my life that will make me more loving!” God took me seriously. (And that is another story!)

As I reflect back to that event, I now realize that if God had spoken to me with the word, “Submit” I would have totally missed the point. I would have merely interpreted it through my childish moral lens: “Do what is expected of you, and that’s it.” But God used a word that gave me a new sense of moral responsibility, the verb, “Minister”. That word means, “serve” – which is really the essence of submission.

At that time God led me into one particular act of submission - which had to do with mutual accountability. But the process of growth in Christian love was to take an arduous path with many more hills and valleys. Really, it is a continuing journey. Today my prayer is that God will continue to work in me:

“…so that [I] may become blameless and pure, “[a child] of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” [That I may] shine among them like stars in the sky.” Philippians 2:15

Diane

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roadsign

Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels,
but do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy
and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have a faith that can move mountains,
but do not have love,
I am nothing.

3 If I give all I possess to the poor
and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,
but do not have love,
I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient,
love is kind.

It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil
but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

11 When I was a child,
I talked like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.

When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;
then we shall see face to face.

Now I know in part;
then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

But the greatest of these is love.
-------------------------------------------------------

For Meditation:

1)How does 1 Cor. 13 convey the meaning of Christian submission towards others?

2)How does this passage convey what is NOT Christian submission?

3) Is the passage saying that tongues, prophesies and charity-acts are useless?

4) How does this passage reflect on my relationship to my family members, church members, co-workers, cyberspace “neighbors”....

5) How does my judgment (evaluation) of them affect my quality of submission?

6) How do my own character qualities affect my quality of submission? (based on 1 Cor. 13)


Diane


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roadsign

There might seem to be little need for debate on this topic of Christian submission. Yet in the various issues debated and disputed in Christianity, Christian love has been the most threatened of all practices. Love easily becomes overshadowed by the need to win a position.

In recent years the very meaning and practice of love has been under fire. The left and right wings of Christianity have opposed each other’s understanding of love. Words leveled against each other include: “tolerance”, “intolerance”, “judgmentalism”, “accommodation”, and so forth. Homosexuals seem to be the current target in much of this debate. Yet the more intensely this dispute rages, the more each side reinforces itself against the other. This is a no-win situation. Surely all sides would benefit more by stepping back from this “hot button”, and instead put their effort into learning the nature and function of biblical love: Christian submission. In this way all people benefit. Relationships could be healed and strengthened. And then God’s glory would be manifested through his people. And isn’t that how others are drawn to Christ?

I see another divide – at least in past years: The conservative wing has criticized the liberals for their “social gospel” and negligence of personal salvation. On the other hand, the liberals have accused the conservatives for ignoring social needs and promoting individualism through their emphasis on a “personal” Savior. The evangelical Christian, Keith Green himself criticized this use of the word “personal”. He believed it is unbiblical, claiming that the word “personal” was adopted as a means to fill in the gap created when important biblical doctrines became lost. For Keith Green true salvation includes the practice of care towards others. He himself was a social activist.

Professing Christians in any divide gain little by focusing on what’s wrong with the “other” side. That tends to make them concentrate on who they do NOT want to be. But we can’t define ourselves by who we are not. We benefit far more through knowing and grasping Christ's immeasurable love. This is a “personal” focus in that we’re minding our own business. But it’s NOT going to make us individualistic or self-absorbed. Quite the contrary! Such a priority empowers us to fulfill our biblical calling to love others. Such a life habit speaks more effectively than merely our words. Christian submission is far more beneficial than winning a disputed position.


“Dear children, let us not love with words or speech,
but with actions and in truth.”

1 John 3:18

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roadsign

“Love is patient” 1 Cor. 13:4
\t\t\t
“… be patient toward all” 1 Th 5:14

It seems fitting to open this reflection with Appolus' words on the recent thread, “Site-SQL loading problems”:

I was just thinking …. how fast this site is, meaning that most threads just zip right through … we use to be able to linger and consider the posts more thoughtfully, …. Perhaps the Lord has slowed down the site for the moment ..........brother Frank

What an appropriate illustration! It’s just like God to slow us down in our tracks and draw our attention to the need for PATIENCE. God visits us here exactly where we are - even as we click our way through a vast stockpile of information related to our Christian faith - all at our instant disposal. However this cornucopia of blessing has a downside: We don’t get to strengthen the skill of PATIENCE towards real people. A five-second wait for a page to open seems like a very, very LONG time! Why, it’s hardly worth hanging around! It too LONG!

Yet waiting is the very nature of PATIENCE! The Greek word for PATIENCE has the prefix: macro, which we know means large in scope. In the word itself [makrothumia] it pertains to a space of time - taking a LONG time. (BDAG) Now we ask: What is it that takes a LONG time?

The Greek word is a compound of thymos which means anger, wrath. In other words, patience is the prolonged restraint of anger. It is LONG suffering, a willingness to await events rather than trying to force them.

How Patience Looks:

Patience is the fruit of maturity. It is the ability to rise above human nature – that is, the lust for instant justice. Humans naturally disdain seeing people let "off the hook” for any length of time. If we have not learned to wait patiently for God to work in a sinner, we will take matters into our own hand. We might not act out in crass vengeance, but we may simply withhold our love. In other words, we pass by on the other side of the road, as it were – and rush on towards more “pressing” interests. We have failed to fulfill our debt to love.

This other person could very well be our child or our spouse.

Patience is a long and tedious assignment. Patience requires that we walk with another in their mundane journeying. Our rapid-firing minds must slow down and listen to another’s dragged-out ramblings. We must suppress our own avalanche of thoughts – and enter the space of the other person’s world. We must be free from the need to form an instant value judgment – or else we will never hear well. We must permit ourselves to encounter a person’s ragged, volatile emotions and disordered thinking. We allow ourselves to be drawn into their pain and grief. It’s messy. We encounter our own fragility, and a sense of our own helplessness. We accept our own humanness.

In our culture of instant split-second results, we have come to expect instant change. But that’s not how people are transformed! Patience requires that we restrain our craving to take control, to rule the conversation, or to force our quick-fix “prescriptions” on another.

We may be conditioned to the fast lane of life, but God will flag us down, and require us to stop by the side of the road – waiting long enough to encounter the real world of another. That is the context of relationship where we can best administer the grace of God.

Patience enables us to wait a very long time - while being faithful in love. Patience means that we don’t give up; we don’t walk away in passive resignation: “Love always hopes, always perseveres”. That is Christian submission – which reflects the long-suffering nature of God.


“The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being PATIENT toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 2 Pet 3:9


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A Surprising Example of Un-submission


Since I began meditating on this topic of Christian submission, I have noticed illustrations everywhere. Here I share an example of a remarkable failure in Christian submission - extracted of all places - from a book I’m reading about the Hebrides Revivals: “Sounds from Heaven”.

During the 1949 revival there were two rival branches in the church - The Free Church and the Church of Scotland. The Free Church was eager to preserve godly orthodoxy, and so had broken away from the more liberal Church of Scotland. Yet surprisingly, in 1949 revival was centered in the Church of Scotland. More surprisingly, the Free Church ministers resisted this revival. They believed that God would” never send His blessing to that which to them seemed to be tainted and liberal”. During this revival many Free Church people joined with the Church of Scotland – and they rejoiced together with what the Lord was doing. But the Free Church ministers “stood askance and would have nothing to do with that which emanated from so questionable a source. (…) They all stood aloof and criticized it with varying degrees of intensity.” (121, Peckham)

Here we see the very antithesis of Christian submission! How can it be that the ministers who were eager to preserve biblical truth were the very ones who resisted God’s work and refused to submit humbly to these people in love? It seems that they were more concerned about avoiding defilement. (My how often we see this motive among those eager to please God!)

In scripture we see that Christian submission is not exclusive to those we are comfortable with, agree with, or see as more godly. Many of the references apply to the very ones we tend to shun – and erect walls. Imagine! The “enemy territory” may be the very platform on which God performs his greatest miracles. That’s all the more reason to remember our debt of love towards the less-loveable – in the form of long-suffering Christian submission.

“Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.”

Diane


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“… be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is
—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” Rom. 12:2

I thank God for the accounts of past revivals! They can function as God’s tools to cut through the stenosis of our minds. This medical term, stenosis, refers to "NARROWING" of a duct or passage - such as in a blood vessel or other tubular organ. Stenosis can happen in our minds too – in our expectations, our beliefs, and so forth. That will inevitably narrow our capacity to love others. Actually, we may not even realize we are negligent in love, and are passing by “on the other side of the road” – as did the Free Church ministers during the Hebrides revival of 1949. In fact, tunnel vision disables us from seeing that there is another side of the road!

To think – this condition even befalls the very ones who long for revival! Consider the first century Jewish leaders who longed for the Messiah. Their expectations became so narrowed, they couldn’t even see for looking. Scripture reveals how their stenotic thinking affected their treatment of others: It was the opposite of Christian submission. Jesus was constantly battling this very issue. Even in the early churches, Jewish converts viewed the Gentile converts with distain and were abusive towards them. This was the case among the recipients of Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians. It’s not surprising that it is in Ephesians where we find the words, “Submit to one another”. 5:21

Consider our cyberspace context – where we we find ourselves battling polemic issues. To think that God may very well bring his glory through those “ill-informed opponents” (in our view)! God seems far less interested than us in who wins or who gets it right. Actually such a pursuit, in itself, can get in the way by predisposing us to the stenosis of the mind. And that makes us resistant to God’s work of revival.

Far better, it seems, to consider how we may bless the “other” through our gestures of submission, or how we may allow that person to bless us. Freed from the need to come out on top – we are free to learn more on the subject – and engage on deeper levels. And all BENEFIT!

“Honor one another above yourselves”. Rom. 12:10

Prayer: Dear Father, even as I ponder over these thoughts, I see how desperately I fall short of the mark. Work in my mind to accomplish renewal - that the eyes of my heart may be enlightened, in order that I may know the hope to which you have called me, the riches of your glorious inheritance in your people, and your incomparable great power for us who believe.

From Ephesians 1:17, 18

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Some years the SI community was graced by the presence of a young adult male, whom I will call Joe, who ….. well, how shall I put it …. was clearly “damaged goods”. Not surprisingly, he was less-than-hospitable. And sure enough it wasn’t long before he was banned from the forum - justifiably! A public forum was not the place for this young man to wrestle through his issues.

Joe returned a few times under new names, but it never worked for long. It wasn’t long before he felt threatened by a response to his words, and then his old habits kicked in. During that time he initiated a series of private dialogues with me. (In those earlier years SI had a feature for that.) To be honest, I was never sure how to help him best. I did offer some guidance on writing – like putting spaces between words, using punctuation, etc. We dialogued a bit about spiritual matters. Then Joe fell out of contact. A year or so later I received a post from him which utterly amazed me. I have kept his letter to this day. God had clearly touched Joe in the interim. God had enabled him to see profound truth through his reading of scripture. In Joe’s rugged writing style, he expressed thoughts which demonstrated new spiritual sensitivities.


Meanwhile … you and I are constantly inundated with various sorts of messages from people craving for our attention, our loyalty, and our resources. The world would eat us alive if it could. This is why Christian submission has boundaries which we must come to recognize – and to respect out of habit. Jesus had boundaries in his ministry. Elijah had boundaries. Yet, as Jesus noted, Elijah was sent only to one particular widow – way out in Zarephath. Lk. 4:26

Every crying beggar is not our mission. But there are those who cross our paths –perhaps, who don’t seem to get “out of the way” to whom we specifically submit in Christian love. This person is not meant to remain a stranger forever, but is to receive God’s love through us. As I discovered this could be as simple as teaching someone on a far away continent how to write a sentence properly. There are instances when by simply submitting – that is, casting out our love, we find ourselves receiving a blessing down the road.

How do we know when it is appropriate to “cast out” our love? Paul gives us an important boundary in 2 Cor. 9:7

“Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give,
not reluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver.”

In other words, authentic submission (in money or otherwise) does not flow out of guilt-tripping, coercion, or pressure. It does not flow from insecurities, or from emptiness – that is, a spiritual/emotional void needing to be filled. Christian submission flows from fullness - the fullness we have in Christ. And in him, there is always an abundant supply of love. That’s why we eagerly pray this for one another:

“And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people,
to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge
—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Eph. 3: 17-19


Diane

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It is significant that the famous “Armor of God” passage in Ephesians 6 comes immediately after Paul’s discourse about submission in domestic relationships. What happens if we apply the “Armor of God” verses in THIS biblical context - rather than extract it and apply it to the wicked people outside of our relational settings? I believe it would add deeper significance to the topic of submission – which, after all, is what Paul has been talking about.

Over and over again in scripture, we see that submission is the very opposite of striving against others – whether that is by aggressively confronting (by sword or word) or by passively withdrawing our love.

Undeniably, we live in the very presence of evil forces at work all the time. There is the potential for evil within our loved ones, within our churches, and within ourselves. We can’t escape the reality of evil. When we try, we become evil ourselves: by fighting against “flesh and blood”. Oh, we might not fight openly, but we might create a walled fortress around ourselves.

The armor of God is different. It is not an offensive weapon used to dominate others. Nor is it a fortified barrier used to distance others. It is made with the endowments of Christ himself– acquired through our union with him: “the spiritual blessings in Christ”. Eph. 1:4 This is the gospel of PEACE! (6:15) It is God’s means to shine his glory on humankind – through you and me. In this way we become equipped to demolish the devil’s schemes. (Talk about BENEFIT!!)

Why not read the Armor of God passage again, this time, considering how the various pieces empower us to submit to one another in love in our everyday relationships - without partiality.

May God surprise us all with new revelations,
Diane

The Armor of God: Ephesians 6:10 - 17


“ Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,
but against the rulers,
against the authorities,
against the powers of this dark world
and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Therefore put on the full armor of God,
so that when the day of evil comes,
you may be able to stand your ground,

and after you have done everything, to stand.

Stand firm then,
with the belt of TRUTH buckled around your waist,
with the breastplate of RIGHTEOUSNESS in place,
and with your feet fitted with the READINESS that comes from the GOSPEL OF PEACE.

In addition to all this,
take up the shield of FAITH,
with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Take the helmet of SALVATION
and the sword of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD.

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Submission is the cure for legalism. by Bob Deffinbaugh

Think of this in terms of your children. If they really do not want to obey but only comply to the degree they must, they are not submissive. In such a case, very minute and meticulous rules must be set down to cover every conceivable situation. If, however, your child is submissive, he or she really wants to do what they believe you want, then you only need a few guiding principles.

No wonder Judaism had (and still has) such a mountain of legislation. No wonder our nation and every other nation has laws without number. People really do not want to obey; they are not truly submissive. Where true submission exists, legalism disappears.

To teach about submission, and then embrace it, prevents a multitude of legalistic rules. Submission is a fundamental ingredient of the believer’s spiritual life.

Source:
Taking a Second Look at Submission
By Bob Deffinbaugh

http://bible.org/seriespage/taking-second-look-submission-1-peter-213-37

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"Submitting ourselves one to another means according to each the right of private judgment and respecting his convictions. It imports a readiness to receive counsel and reproof from my brethren, as David did when he was king (Ps. 141:5). It connotes a cheerful denying of self as I seek their good. It signifies doing all in my power to minister unto their holiness and happiness. As one of the old worthies put it, "The saints are trees of righteousness whose fruit is to be eaten by others; candles, which spend themselves in giving light and comfort to those about them".

To obey this precept we require to be clothed with humility: it is the proud who cannot endure subjection, and who consider it beneath them to lend a helping hand to those less favored. Love must be warm and active if superiors and inferiors are to treat one another with kindness and respect. Where love reigns none will be disdained or slighted. "In the fear of God" this submission is to be rendered: in conscience to his command, with a regard for his glory."


Source:
"The Life of Faith", by Arthur W. Pink
Chapter 9 "Christian Submission"

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Life_of_Faith/faith_09.htm

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"Brethren, ye have been called unto liberty: only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal. 5:13) interprets for us "submitting yourselves one to another". It is the mutual submission of brotherly love which is there enjoined, of that love which "seeketh not her own", but ever labours for the good of its objects.
It is that mutual subjection which one Christian owes to another, not seeking to advance himself above his fellows and domineer over them, but which is selfless, bearing one another’s burdens. It is in the exercise of that spirit we please God, adorn the gospel, and make it manifest that we are the followers of him who was meek and lowly in heart. It is by mortifying our pride and selfishness, by the exercise of mutual affection, by discharging the office of respect and kindness unto the children of God, we show forth that we have passed from death unto life.

from Aurthur Pink, "Christian Submission"

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Each day I plan to set aside this thread for a time. And then I come across a word that – not only stirs my spirit, but fits here. For example, JI Packer - in an audio lecture said:


“Love is a commitment to meet the need of another person and to make the other person great thereby.”

Where this becomes the practice among God's people, no one among them is left needy. And there is much joy and grace.


A Personal Prayer:
Dear Father, awaken my sensitivities to my Christian brothers and sisters – so that, in whatever circumstance, my priority may be to build them up.

Empower me to look beyond any exterior bravados, and touch a heart which craves to be satisfied by love. Train me to be an instrument of your love – to touch another in the place of real need.

Give me your love for those in our contemporary "neighborhood" who are impoverished in soul– who crave for true meaning and purpose, and who hunger for belonging and security. May they, through my Christian submission, taste of the One who satisfies: the promised “consolation of Israel” - the Christ child come to restore the lost to the Father. Lk. 2:25

Diane

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by Bob Deffinbaugh:

Secular submission is legalistic, outward compliance with the letter of the law when observed; biblical submission is inward agreement with the spirit of the law. Because secular submission is not a voluntary matter of the heart, it results only in a legalistic kind of obedience to the letter of the law. Biblical submission goes much further as it seeks to fulfill the spirit of the matter.

To illustrate, let’s assume one of my children is not submissive. The child asks if she can go next door to play with Sarah. I tell her no. I later find my child is next door, and when I begin to punish her for her disobedience, she insists she did not go next door to play with Sarah; she went next door to play with Stephanie, Sarah’s sister. The letter of the law may not have been violated, since I did not specifically forbid going next door or playing with Stephanie. But if my child were submissive, I would only have to express to her that I did not want her going out today, and she would apply that general principle to every specific question based upon what she knew I wanted rather than upon the exact words I chose.

Is it any wonder that the Judaism of Jesus’ day was so legalistic? Not at all, because God’s people were not submissive to Him. They rejected His authority and even His own Son. They challenged His authority, and finally nailed Him to a cross. Those who have the “law written on their hearts” need not be given a long, detailed list of rules. They need only be told, in general principles, what pleases and displeases God. Legalism is evidence of a lack of submission. Submission seeks to please God.

Source: Taking a Second Look at Submission (1 Peter 2:13 - 3:7)by Bob Deffinbaugh

http://bible.org/seriespage/taking-second-look-submission-1-peter-213-37
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We find very few hymns and songs on the theme of Christian submission. “The Servant Song” by Richard Gillard is a rare jewel. Interestingly, this hymn has managed to cross denominational lines and is found in many hymn books. Arguably, its words can be subject to the singer’s interpretation. Yet because it is well-supported biblically, God’s Spirit can certainly use it to penetrate the conscience of people in any worship tradition. After all, on the practice of Christian submission, no branch of Christianity can claim to have arrived. In fact, this is undoubtedly our most deficient area in Christian living.

The words in “The Servant Song” express a costly vow. This can be fulfilled only in the one born from above and submitted to Christ in believing faith. For that reason, the ability to keep this vow, and to persevere faithfully through trials and temptations, without partiality, is a mark of true saving faith. Jesus said, “By their fruit you will recognize them.” Matt. 7:16

“The Servant Song”

Brother, let me be your servant.
Let me be as Christ to you.
Pray that I might have the grace
To let you be my servant, too.

We are pilgrims on a journey.
We are brothers on the road.
We are here to help each other
Walk the mile and bear the load.

I will hold the Christ-light for you
In the night time of your fear.
I will hold my hand out to you;
Speak the peace you long to hear.

I will weep when you are weeping.
When you laugh, I’ll laugh with you.
I will share your joy and sorrow
Till we’ve seen this journey through.

When we sing to God in heaven,
We shall find such harmony
Born of all we’ve known together
Of Christ’s love and agony.

By Richard Gillard of New Zealand, 1977


PS: If you know other songs on Christian submission, I would appreciate you sharing them.

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Marriage is one of the most strategic platforms on which the drama of submission is enacted. In marriage the ability to submit (as described throughout this thread) has a significant impact - not only on the quality of the relationship itself, but on many others as well. A mutually submissive marriage is potentially an enormous benefit to society. It has a ripple effect. Conversely a marriage weak in this area is less able to provide the influence needed to foster stable, nurturing relationships in others.

I would like to present examples - a marriage strong in Christian submission, and one not so strong.

I begin with Charles and Suzie Spurgeon. Many SI-ers will know Spurgeon as the great British Baptist preacher whose sermons and writings were so popular that they sold by the ton. The missionary David Livingstone once asked Charles, “How do you manage to do two men’s work in a single day? Charles responded, “You have forgotten that there are two us, and the one you see least often does the most work.” Charles was referring to his wife, Suzie.

Their relationship had plenty of potential for failure. Charles had a country background; she a genteel, refined background. She was three years older than him. His appearance and manners were uncouth – and frankly embarrassing to her. Suzie was sheltered and restricted by class restraints, and did not find it easy to share about the things he easily talked about.

As a 20-year-old clergy, he was no enticing catch for any young woman. At first Suzie was not impressed. Yet they became bonded in love.

During their courtship, Charles would often take Suzie on his preaching engagements - but then he'd be so wrapped up in his work, he acted as if he didn’t even know her. One day he forgot about her – and this upset her. She went home crying. That almost ended it for them. Thankfully they were reconciled that evening when he came looking for her - remorsefully.

In spite of their differences and weaknesses, this relationship grew strong through the bonds of submissive love. It exemplified JI Packer’s description:

“Love is a commitment to meet the need of another person and to make the other person great thereby”.


It fulfilled the vows as expressed in “The Servant Song”:

Brother, let me be your servant.
Let me be as Christ to you.
Pray that I might have the grace
To let you be my servant, too.

likewise:

Sister, let me be your servant....

I will hold the Christ-light for you
In the night time of your fear.
I will hold my hand out to you;
Speak the peace you long to hear

Later I will provide some biographical illustrations as described by Wm Petersen in his book called, “Catherine Marshall had a Husband”. ©1986, Living Books, Tyndale House.

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Charles and Susie Spurgeon demonstrated a relationship of mutual submission. Charles was made great by Susie’s careful attention to his needs. She submitted to him in Christian love, and he in turn submitted to her by receiving her ministry and care. He honored her above himself by acknowledging her before others as his source of strength and wisdom.

Here I quote some excerpts:

“She could curb the uncouth eccentricities and correct his mistakes in language or history, and she hesitated not in the most affectionate manner to apply her criticisms when she saw they would do her husband good. He urged her to take the place of a public critic and notice his errors that he might the more readily correct them, and as she was the lady of excellent good sense and quite extensive reading, she was a far safer critic than any man he could have selected.” (138, Petersen quoting R. Conwell)


“When Charles returned from the evening service, he was quite exhausted. He would flop into an easy chair by the fireside, and Susie would read poetry to him. (…) On other evenings Susie might read theological books to Charles at his request. There was certainly no shortage of reading materials, for Charles’s library rapidly grew to twelve thousand volumes.”

“When he felt that his sermons had been ineffectual, he would ask Susie to read Richard Baxter’s “Reformed Pastor”. Surgeon allowed the stern admonitions of Baxter to recharge his spiritual batteries. Susie tells of a typical reading from Baxter: “I read page after page of such solemn pleadings, interrupted now and again by his stifled heart sobs, till my voice fails from emotion and sympathy, my eyes grow dim, and my tears mingle with his as we weep together – he from the smiting of a very tender conscience towards God, and I simply and only because I love him and want to share his grief.”

To be continued…


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Charles Spurgeon would prepare his Sunday morning sermon on Saturday evening. On one of those evenings he could not get anywhere, even after consulting commentaries praying, jotting down ideas. He became frustrated. His wife, Susie recalls, “I was as much distressed as he was, but I could not help him. At least, I thought I could not.”

Finally Susie urged him to go to bed and wake up early in the morning. He would be able to think more clearly then. And she promised that she would wake him at dawn.

Early in the morning, however, Susie heard him talking in his sleep. She listened; it wasn’t gibberish; it seemed to make sense. ”Soon I realized that he was going over the subject… and was giving a clear and distinct exposition of its meaning with much force and freshness…. If I could but seize and remember the salient points of the discourse, he would have no difficulty in developing and enlarging upon them.”

She lay in bed, “repeating over and over again the chief points.” Then she herself fell asleep about the time she was supposed to waken Charles.

When he awoke and noticed the time, he was irritated. And Susie was the focus of his irritation. “You promised to waken me very early. See the time! Why did you let me sleep? I don’t know what I’m going to do this morning.” Facing a large congregation without a message from the Lord was not what Charles enjoyed doing.

Then Susie told him what had happened during the night and repeated to him the main points he had made in his sleep.

“You mean I preached that in my sleep?” He could hardly believe it. “That is just what I wanted. That’s the true explanation of the text.”

From the explanation Susie had furnished, Charles went into the pulpit and preached a powerful sermon. (140-2, Petersen)

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In what was perhaps the first wedding ceremony that Charles Spurgeon conducted, he reminded the bride of the Apostle Paul’s words, “The husband is the head of the wife.”
“Don’t you try to be the head,” he told her, “but you be the neck, then you can turn the head whichever way you like.” (155, Petersen)

In his sermon on marriage Charles noted that a model marriage is:
“founded on pure love and cemented in mutual esteem. … Their object in life is common. There are points where their affections so intimately unite that none could tell which is first and which is second…. Their wishes blend, their heart as are indivisible. By degrees, they come to think very much the same thoughts. Intimate association creates conformity; I have known this to become so complete that, at the same moment, the same utterance has leaped to both their lips. If heaven be found on earth, they have it”. (156, Petersen)

Indisputably, Charles was describing his own marriage in these words. More significantly, his description reflected his submission to God. And really, that is the means to effective Christian submission in marriage.
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The Spurgeon couple possessed the qualities of mature submission. This is evident in how they treated each other, their sons, and others. Their life habit of submission is also seen in how they used the books in their library. They habitually sat at the feet of great saints of the past, and they humbly learned from them through their writings.

This life habit of submission helped the Spurgeon couple endure major stresses, like sickness and depression, slander and opposition. It helped them endure extended times of separation - like when Susie was confined to bed and she could not accompany him on his preaching excursions. Charles was sensitive to her domestic needs, and showed sensitivity to her wishes. He honored her.

Charles died at 57, having burnt himself out. Susie herself never fully recovered from her malady. Yet she went on to distribute thousands of his books and sermons around the world. She was instrumental in disseminating his works and life story.

Charles and Susie demonstrate for us what Christian submission in marriage looks like. They can serve today’s modern church which is so desperately ignorant and ill equipped in the area of human relationships. The Spurgeon's are among the “cloud of witnesses” – who encourage us to persevere in fidelity and love in our own relational contexts.

Coming up: A marriage example which was weak in Christian submission.

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David and Mary Livingstone

It has been said that David Livingstone should never have married. To be sure, it would not have been easy for anyone to be married to David Livingstone. He was a loner, he was extremely driven, and he found it difficult to work closely with people. His persistence in holding to his own ideas frequently got him into trouble. With the mission directors, he seemed to wage a continuing debate. He did not like the idea of taking orders from anyone. He almost lost his degree in medical school because of his outspoken disagreement with them regarding the value of the stethoscope. He didn’t think is that the potential that they said it had.

Livingstone went to Africa to tend a mission station, but within five months he was convinced that the missionary strategy was either too conservative or simply misguided. Besides, this life was far too civilized for him. He wanted to explore the interior. He wrote, “I did not come to Africa to be suspended on the tail of anyone”.

David had no intensions of marrying, but he was reminded frequently that he’d be sorry if he didn’t marry. Then, at 30, after convalescing at a mission station from combat with a lion, he became attracted to missionary daughter, Mary Moffat. He could see that she was well-suited to jungle living. Mary was drawn to his strength.

Mary’s parents were domineering types. He had a “smothering effect on his colleagues”. The children grew up with inferiority feelings – especially Mary, who was neither attractive physically nor brilliant mentally. Standards in the Moffat home were high, and anyone who didn’t meet those standards could expect criticism. Younger missionaries were made to feel like teenagers who weren’t allowed to grow up. That’s the way Mary felt too. But David didn’t respond to her father like other missionaries did. He talked to her father as an equal.

In his letter to Mary during their courtship David wrote, “Let your affections be towards Him much more than towards me.” For the duration of their life together, the two cared deeply about each other and they had faith in God. Yet, both of them were poorly grounded in the quality of Christian submission. That weakness, in spite of all their strengths, would prove to be devastating for their relationship down the road.

Cont’d….

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Information taken from Wm Peterson, “Meet David and Mary Livingstone, in “Catherine Marshall had a Husband”, (Wheaton, Illinois: Living Books © 1986).

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From Wikipedia:

David Livingstone was “perhaps one of the most popular national heroes of the late 19th century in Victorian Britain. …. His fame as an explorer helped drive forward the obsession with discovering the sources of the River Nile that formed the culmination of the classic period of European geographical discovery and colonial penetration of the African continent. At the same time his missionary travels, "disappearance" and death in Africa, and subsequent glorification as posthumous national hero in 1874 led to the founding of several major central African Christian missionary initiatives carried forward in the era of the European "Scramble for Africa".

This summarizes the broad influence of Livingstone on the western world. His marriage relationship, on the other hand, is of less interest. Yet that is pertinent to our topic here. Petersen writes:

“Mary and David Livingstone’s marriage was not what you would call romantic, but it was certainly not without love. It was full of frustration, especially for Mary. Her marriage was a lover’s triangle, and the third party was named Africa” (43)

After a jungle expedition in which Mary’s health became life-threatening, David realized he could not take her and their children. “This journey was to prove the crux of his career. It forced upon him the realization that his aims as an active missionary and his duties as a husband were two things incompatible, and that one or the other must be sacrificed.” (65)

David was concerned that if slave traders reached Africa’s interior before missionaries, the Africans would never again be open to the gospel message; instead they would fear anything that came from the white man.” It pained him deeply to have to send his family back to England. He encouraged his family to depend on Jesus.

But in England things went badly for Mary and her children. It was “a wretched monadic existence” – in rented rooms, or with people she couldn’t get along with. She missed David very much. Her teenaged kids became hard to manage. She became bitter and sunk in despair. Her mental health deteriorated. She started drinking. Her drinking worsened, she got extremely overweight, suffered depression, and became a “vulgar woman”.

David missed Mary too. He had his own hardships. Finally the time came when Mary could go to Africa and see her husband. But when he finally saw her, he realized that she was not the same Mary he had known. Her mental and physical health had deteriorated significantly. She soon got sick and died. David believed she had lost the will to live. She died at 41.

Commentary to come ….

Diane

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It could be said that, even though David and Mary Livingstone cared deeply for each other, they never fully enjoyed the high benefits of Christian submission. That never became a strong virtue in their lives: Even David’s letters to Mary during her darkest days tended to be insensitive and sermonic: “Patience is a virtue”, he wrote. The quality of submission was weak in her parents, which left Mary vulnerable. It was weak in the relatives, churches, mission boards – those who failed to give Mary and her family the empathetic care she needed. It was, to be sure, a societal weakness. After David became a national hero, London feted David with one banquet after another. Mary would accompany him. She was praised too - for how she had endured her time in England “with patience and resignation, even joy.” Those words were spoken by a dignitary who obviously had no idea what she experienced. Such insensitive flattery is not a mark of Christian submission!

The biographer, Seaver, comments on David’s reflection over his life:

“It must have seemed that all he had striven for had been failure; that over it all might be written one word: Disillusion. In everything, he had failed; he had failed as a husband; he had failed as a father; he had failed as a missionary; he had failed as a geographer; he had failed most of all as a liberator. It was through his fault that his wife had died untimely, through his neglect that his children were orphaned.” David had also failed to reach his goals: He did not end the slave trade and he did not establish permanent Christian missions.

Yet David Livingstone did succeed in stirring up public support against slavery through his books. Also, after his death, Africa became a focus of missionary activity.

This of course does not allow us to discount the failures in their relationship. Yet we would do well to guard our judgments. It may be true that the Livingstone’s were agents of their own poor choices, but they were also victims of a fallen world. And so we find ourselves weeping for these dear saints of the past. They represent people all around us – people who are desperately hurting because of failed love, or love never fully matured. They represent caring Christians – those who, like David and Mary, sincerely desire to serve the Lord, but who are capsized by human fallenness.

Of course we owe our gratitude to the outstanding examples God has set before us - like Charles and Susie Spurgeon. But in real life we meet far more people who struggle through fractured love. For that reason, the Livingstone’s, as ordinary real people, can serve to stir our compassion and mercy. In that way we identify with God’s compassion - his long-suffering love for fallen humankind. And that is the nature of Christian submission:


I will hold the Christ-light for you
In the night time of your fear.
I will hold my hand out to you;
Speak the peace you long to hear.

I will weep when you are weeping.
When you laugh, I’ll laugh with you.
I will share your joy and sorrow
Till we’ve seen this journey through.

From “The Servant Song”


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Enjoy this inspiring song: “Carry Your Candle/ Go Light Your World” by Tim Rice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ePwMcrkgPs&feature=related


Interestingly, this clip opens with a quote by the missionary, Robert Moffat, the father of Mary Livingstone. What a a fitting way to conclude our segment on the Livingstone’s! We can keep their dream alive by carrying that candle ourselves - and shining the Light of Christ’s redemptive love.


1. There is a candle in every soul
Some brightly burning, some dark and cold
There is a Spirit who brings fire
Ignites a candle and makes His home

Carry your candle, run to the darkness
Seek out the hopeless, confused and torn
Hold out your candle for all to see it
Take your candle, and go light your world


2. Frustrated brother, see how he's tried to
Light his own candle some other way
See now your sister, she's been robbed and lied to
Still holds a candle without a flame

Carry your candle, run to the darkness
Seek out the lonely, the tired and worn
Hold out your candle for all to see it
Take your candle, and go light your world


3. We are a family whose hearts are blazing
So let's raise our candles and light up the sky
Praying to our Father, in the name of Jesus
Make us a beacon in darkest times

Carry your candle, run to the darkness
Seek out the helpless, deceived and poor
Hold out your candle for all to see it
Take your candle, and go light your world

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We Christians have a natural bent to view the world as a courtroom and ourselves as the crown prosecutors. We are constantly making value judgments on things relates to our Christian faith - ideas, books, people, habits, and so forth. We evaluate things as right or wrong, innocent or guilty. Understandably! The Christian life is closely intertwined with righteousness, law, purity, and justice. It’s the way we are created – in God’s image. This courtroom way of thinking easily finds expression in our forum discussions – and can keep a thread lively for quite some time. But what about our calling to Christian submission?

An engaging "trial" can certainly keep a discussion going; but it can also occupy our minds so fully that it eclipses our higher calling to Christian submission. It is not natural for us to think “submissively”. Our thoughts don’t easily drift to matters associated with relationship - how we can be hospitable and edifying to each other. I speak for myself!

There once came a time in my life when the courtroom way of thinking collided with a “hospice” way of thinking. It happened when my teen daughter made choices that my attorney conscience saw as utterly guilty. Suddenly I had difficulty loving her. I could not handle the co-existence of good and bad. My conscience prohibited me from extending love to her – because she deserved judgment – as in, the withdrawal of my love. Yet I was aware of the Christian duty to love, and I experienced guilt if I did not love. It was no-win crisis. So I cried to God for help. His solution was not what I expected. It was not to change her (to accommodate my legalistic conscience), but to change me! That was to happen through an encounter with God’s astounding grace, as expressed in these words:

Grace and love like mighty rivers poured incessant from above.
Heaven’s peace and perfect justice kissed a guilty world in love.

Christian submission becomes possible through God’s grace. However, his grace doesn’t lend itself well to our courtroom settings. Actually it demolishes our courtroom. Suddenly we are no longer crown prosecutors, and we are silenced. Our tidy good/bad categories are dislocated. An earthquake shakes our minds: It’s the cataclysmic shift from law to grace.

This has been my experience. I wonder if this was also the experience for one of Jesus’ listeners one day when he told a parable about the Samaritan traveler.

To be cont’d.

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Christian submission doesn’t accommodate itself well to the courtroom way of thinking – because submission is the expression of mercy triumphing over judgment. This is God’s love. So when a legal expert approached Jesus one day asking the way to eternal life, Jesus first had to demolish the man’s courtroom mentality – or he would never accept the answer.

The lawyer began (naturally) by putting Jesus in the “courtroom” - to test him. Jesus reversed the roles and tested the lawyer. “What does the law say?” he asked. The lawyer could readily recite the Great Commandment: to love your God and your neighbor. But his real desire was to justify himself. He wanted to make sure he was right (being still in the legal mode). So he asked Jesus who his neighbor was. Really he wanted to be sure who was NOT his neighbor, and thus absolve his conscience. Little did he know that shortly he himself would be providing the answer to his own question. It was a morality that he would never be able to practice as long as he stayed stuck in his legalist mindset. If he really wanted to be justified and have eternal life, he would need to abolish his entire way of thinking – that is, his courtroom approach to life.

Jesus helped him see the new way of grace by casting a Samaritan as the main character. In the lawyer’s mind, Samaritans were condemned, judged as guilty. How could Jesus possibly cast a convicted sinner as the exemplar of the highest virtue of all and the very path to eternal life? It was incomprehensible! How can a law-breaker possibly exemplify the greatest commandment? How can wrong ever be right? How can evil be good? This is not possible! (Martin Luther faced this same objection when he put forward his “new theology” of grace)

Jesus flips the verdict, not only for the Samaritan, but also for the two “good” guys – the scribe and Levite who were moral exemplars in the mind of the lawyer. They were careful to preserve their purity – and that’s why they avoided the wounded man. What if he was dead – defiled? So they passed by and did not help the man.

Yet in Jesus’ story they both failed in the greatest commandment – even in the very act of trying hard to be righteous. Now they were the convicted ones. Imagine the turmoil in the lawyer’s mind. An earthquake had struck it!

That day, this lawyer came to see the working of God’s grace through Jesus’ parable. He would surely have realized that if he was to have eternal life, he would have to accept grace for himself – because now, clearly, he was the sinner deserving judgment in God’s court.

Only by receiving God’s mercy for himself would he be able to be a neighbor to others. He would be hospitable by submitting in Christian love. And he would have eternal life.

From Luke 10:25-37

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Did your mind go tilt when you read this interpretation of the Good Samaritan parable? For one thing, don’t you think that if Jesus told us the parable today, he might use an atheist to teach us the meaning of the great commandment? After all, an unchurched atheist is just as capable of showing compassion as that Samaritan.

Here’s another reason our mind may tilt:

Jesus is telling the law expert to obey the LAW. At the same time he is helping the man realize that living by law is exactly what keeps him from obeying the law. Jesus does not cut a dividing line between law and grace – not here! So then, where exactly is that dividing line? To answer this, I think we must begin with the same questions Jesus began with. He asked the lawyer: “What is written in the law? HOW DO YOU READ IT?” Luke 10:26

The lawyer knew the words in the law, but he did not know how to read it. I suggest that this quandary is our challenge too: When it comes to the greatest commandment (our calling to submit in love to God and to others) we indeed have difficulty knowing how to read it. Still today, the ones who have most difficulty reading this law may be the ones who know the laws of God best.

What do you think?

Diane

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The Greatest Commandment

He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ [a];
and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ [b] Lk. 10:27

a.\t Deut. 6:5
b.\t Lev. 19:18

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For consideration on the topic of love.

http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/edify/What_is_Love.html

Quote:
Love-Putting the needs of another ahead of our own, or to prefer, motivated by desire, not duty nor obligation.
Hate- Putting our own needs ahead of another, or to prefer not. (In the context of love of God or love of the world, it merely means the loved one is the one which is the preferred object of your desire)

If looked at in this light, love of self becomes an oxymoron, what it really is is hatred of others.

OJ

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Love-Putting the needs of another ahead of our own, or to prefer, motivated by desire, not duty nor obligation.
Hate- Putting our own needs ahead of another, or to prefer not. (In the context of love of God or love of the world, it merely means the loved one is the one which is the preferred object of your desire)

If looked at in this light, love of self becomes an oxymoron, what it really is is hatred of others.

Biblical love is not the gushy indescribable feeling made popular by the hippy generation, but is a firm unwavering decision to put self last.


Old_Joe,
I see we have some work to do: reconcile the above line of reasoning with the following scriptures:

Matt. 19:19 ‘love your neighbor AS YOURSELF .’ ”

Matt . 22:39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF’

Mark 12:31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF’ There is no commandment greater than these.”


Mark 12:33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor AS YOURSELF is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


Lk 10:27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF ’ ”

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.”


Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.”

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF,” you are doing right.

Lev. 19: 18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor AS YOURSELF . I am the LORD.
--------------------------------------


Are these verses saying that a love for self is intrinsically linked with a love for others?

How might we need to change our understanding of the word “love” so it reconciles with the above scriptures?


Diane

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Well.. . Old_Joe, We can’t easily slip past this topic of loving self. We may agree that love for self is bad; yet the words “AS YOURSELF” are found in every reference about loving our neighbor. Undeniably, love towards self is bound up with the Greatest Commandment.

We will need to distinguish between two kinds of self love– one that hinders us from loving others, and one that empowers us to love.

I once heard a pastor explain these two kinds of self love: One is selfishness, and the other is self care. Selfishness feeds the false self; self care feeds the true self. The false self refers to all our facades – the image we want to portray, our identities, or whatever shields us from our true self, or keeps others (and God) from seeing us as we really are. The habits of consumerism, addictions, promiscuity, and so forth all feed the false self. These are selfish pursuits. They harm us; and they keep us self absorbed. In this sense, Old_Joe your point is well taken. This is the place for self hatred. This must be put away, it must die. It is the way of sin. It is bondage, imprisoning us from our true calling.

Now what about self care – true self love?

Here’s how I see it: When Christ liberates us from sin, we become the temple of the Spirit. We care for his temple by receiving his love, and trusting in his love. We value ourselves as chosen for a God-given destiny. To the extent that we love ourselves as God’s beloved ones, we are able to love others. Christian submission then is the outworking of an indestructible love triangle: God, others, and ourselves.

Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.”


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To the extent that we love ourselves as God’s beloved ones, we are able to love others.

Not trying to debate, Diane, but this doesn't sit well for some reason. It would give the excuse of - "I am having trouble loving others 'because' I don't love myself."
Does that not sound like psychology?
If the Spirit of GOD resides in us and we hear His commands and look at Him/His life on earth - we will lay down our lives for others. That goes beyond our "self" life.



Christian submission then is the outworking of an indestructible love triangle: God, others, and ourselves.

This second quote changes the order of the first quote.

If we would get our eyes completely off of ourselves - we'd have no problem loving others and would find that - that Love is what does the job of making us like Him - dead to self.
Just taking Him at His Word [All of His N.T. commands to 'love'] - loving sacrificially, not concerned with reputation, comforts, etc etc does the transforming work by learning obedience by what we suffer. That "suffering" that He endured and that we would, if we walked in Him, comes from Loving. It's when loving like He does, that we back off because it never comes without sacrifice to self, in one way or another. Whether it's becoming a fool for Christ for another's sake or merely just getting off of our comfortable seats sometimes.

I think we wait to die-to-self to love as He did - when His order of things is to love others to our own death.

Was thinking of these verses as well -
Eph 5:28,29 So ought men to love their wives ***as their own bodies.*** He that loveth his wife loveth himself. ***For no man ever yet hated his own flesh***; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church

"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh" -- that's a stumper, isn't it?

{eta} found the other verse I was thinking of ... 1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.


Thanks, Diane.


Side-note: We're to love our Brothers, no exceptions - but I suppose some could get out of that command by believing that there are no 'brothers' around to love.


GOD Bless!

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Eph 5:28,29 So ought men to love their wives ***as their own bodies.*** He that loveth his wife loveth himself. ***For no man ever yet hated his own flesh***; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church

Thank you. These verses clarify the meaning of “as yourself” in the Great Commandment.


"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh" -- that's a stumper, isn't it?

Yes. And we can’t chat with the author to see what was going on in his head, or note the destructive effects of self hatred - substance abuse, beating oneself up with condemnations, attempts to end life, taking it out on others. This is a mammoth topic in itself, and perhaps someday we can open it up. Here is where God’s people can especially minister Christ’s redemptive and healing love in contemporary society.

However, I believe that Paul is appealing to logical reason– not a 21st C societal malady. He is right: No reasonable person hates his flesh! No! He cares for it. And it makes sense that you cannot care for another’s well being if you are destructive towards your own well being (motivated by self-condemnation).

: We're to love our Brothers, no exceptions - but I suppose some could get out of that command by believing that there are no 'brothers' around to love.

A great point, sis. The Parable of the Good Samaritan touches on the question of who is my neighbor - or rather, how I am to be a neighbor. To be honest, I have no idea how many brothers I have “walked past” and failed to be their neighbor. I do not know how any times I have been unable to see a brother – in spite of his presence. I didn’t see him - only an exterior surface. For me it far more natural to simply make a superficial judgment, give speck-removal advice, express a shy polite hello, or stay at an emotional distance. That’s why I am interested in this topic of Christian submission. Strengthening the three-fold bond of love (see two posts back) is an area for growth in obedience to the highest law of God.

Diane


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“Let the husband render unto his wife DUE BENEVOLENCE
and likewise also the wife unto her husband.”
1 Cor. 7:3 KJV

In this verse, the KJV does something more effectively than any other translation, according to by Dr. Peter Masters of London's Metropolitan Tabernacle. (Spurgeon’s stomping ground) *.

I discovered his audio sermon yesterday. It inspired and uplifted me. Surely, this was God’s way of prodding me on in this important theme of Christian submission ….. even as I was drifting away from it.

Here are the main points.


Sermon title: MUTUAL DEBTS IN MARRIAGE

The key word, “benevolence” [Gr. eunoia] is found in the Majority Text, and preserved in the KJV. Paul is teaching that benevolence is the debt due to one’s marriage partner. It is the debt of goodwill or kindness in action. This debt is owed in each direction: husband to wife, and wife to husband.

1 Cor. 7:3 is usually assumed to address sexual relationships only. But that is what society wants to stress. The Bible wants to talk about more than sex because marriage is more than sexual relations, as important as that is.

In marriage we each have a debt of benevolence to the other, and we are obliged to pay it. If any husband or wife is not paying this debt he or she is sinning against the Lord. This “due benevolence” can be summarized as the seven-fold bond of debt.

THE SEVEN-FOLD DEBT OF GOOD WILL:

1. EXCLUSIVE COMMITMENT
We owe this to each other. This means no betrayal, not even small betrayals. There is never talk about each other to a third party, such as complaints about things between the two, or whatever is important to those two people alone.

2. A DEBT OF CARE
We have a duty to care for each other, to look after each other. It is thoughtful care. We always keep half an eye on the other. We comfort each other and help each other, especially in times of need.

This debt also involves potentiating the gifts of the other. One spouse may be capably engaged in the Lord’s service. But what about the other? What has the privileged one done to potentiate the gifts of the other, and see that they come into service and usefulness?


3. A DEBT OF LOVE
We have a duty to keep the flame of love alive. It is not an automatic thing, but must be expressed and exercised. If you don’t think about this, love can grow cold.

“Husbands, love your wives.” This is repeated in different ways in Eph. 5. If you are you not finding ways of communicating and expressing love, you are not paying your debts. At the very least, it is kindness, courtesy, and affection. As Christ loved the Church, this is how husbands love their wives - and also, of course - how wives love their husbands. It works both ways. (“... and likewise also the wife unto her husband.”)

If you are a self-indulgent person, you won’t have much emotion for your wife or husband.
If you are a self pitying person, you won’t either. If you don’t ration your affections, and if you pity yourself, you will be center stage, you alone will matter in life. Don’t spend all the currency of emotion upon yourself. You owe it to your partner.

4. A DEBT OF SPIRITUAL CARE
We have a duty to pray for each other, and to praise God for each other. If you thank and praise God, you can’t feel bitter for your husband or wife.

Help each other see spiritual good in every trial, whatever it may be. Think of the spiritual good, the hope, and the promises of God in every hardship. Encourage each other, speak of spiritual things. Husband, wife, do speak of spiritual things. If you have nothing left to say to each other, well THINK! Think spiritual things. Revive SPIRITUAL THINGS and interests.

We are each to enable spiritual service for us both. This is a debt of good will we each owe the other. 1 Cor. 7:23 says: “We are bought with a price; be not servants of men.” Paul said this even to slaves. It is your duty to facilitate spiritual service. You are bought with a price, and your highest priority is serving the Lord. For each of us ( the wife too) our great aim is to facilitate Christian service in the other - that we should serve the Lord together.

Cont’d….


Sermon accessed at http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Sermons

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Hi Diane. If I may just again, reply with what I see regarding self-love.

For the redeemed, the quickest cure to looking inward is to look upon the needs of others.

Quickest way to get over ourselves is to look beyond ourselves.

I don't believe that our problem is a lack of self-love. Quite the contrary. Every sin on earth is birthed by self-love that wants to be comforted and catered to - as in the drugs, alcohol, suicide [being the height of self-love as it considers No One].
What is self-love but self consumed with self.
When we truly love someone - our eyes are on them and their needs and desires and so forth but when we're consumed with ourselves, there's little thought of the desires and needs of others - only ourselves - and that is "self-love" -- the same self-love that will think of no one else as they sit and cry in their beer using the excuse that "they're" not happy because ........ a zillion and one reasons --- but all reasons because they've become self-consumed.

Self wants the attention. Self wants all the pity. And in it all - we do call it "self-love". Self has it's mind on self. It's self-love that GOD directs His first commandment at. Away from self and onto Him and others - from Deut 6. That's what the Pharisees lacked... those two commands would have saved them - as it did every other O.T. Saint.
Some folks forget that there are indeed humans from the Old Testament that are now in Heaven.
David wasn't perfect - but he sure did live out those two commands - and by loving GOD's Word - he fulfilled the First Commandment. Amazing stuff.
Doesn't mean we'll never moan at times. We see most every author of His Word going through their days of moaning and we have ours.

I just don't see how The LORD would 'command' "Love your neighbors as yourself" and mean anything other than that humans should have full knowledge that we All love ourselves already. We just don't love how our lives are going our way. "Woe is me!" Self-pity.
"I" don't want to suffer anymore. Even Saints, decide that GOD has put "too much suffering" in their lives and turn inward in self-focus and self-comforting devices.

John, the #1 Lover wrote - 1Jn 2:16 For 'all' that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

No mention of "hating self".

I can't see how He would command Love from believers in the New Testament over 100 times if He would take the "opt-out" of - "I don't love myself, so I can't love others."
Love of self is manifested by the amount of time one spends with their eyes on themselves and not on He Whom they are to love and All of His Creation.

He'd never command the impossible. He gives no exclusionary clause - as psychology does.

The sure cure is to see that He lived and lives for others-always-only. Little time for self-pity and self absorbtion when our focus is in the same direction as His.

More people have been helped by helping others than we realize. It's when they get back to their homes alone that their flesh and the devil will focus them again off of GOD and others.


Just my experience and what I feel His Word is telling us - that there's no opt-out clauses in His command to The Saints, to love Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and love others & brothers as we already do love ourselves - for no man hates his own flesh but nourishes it .... etc..

Bless you as well Diane!!

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5. A DEBT TO GIVE PLEASURE TO ONE ANOTHER
I have a duty to make my wife or husband happy. Do I make life agreeable? Do I give companionship, friendship? Or am I so busy in the Lord’s work that I don’t give her or him a second thought. That’s a debt not paid. Husband and wife, share your burdens. If one is burdened, it’s a great help to be able to spread that burden - but not all the time. If I inflict my moods on my wife, that’s not making life agreeable for each other.

Think of something good to say. It is a duty to encourage. Encouragement is a debt I owe.


6. A DUTY TO SHAPE EACH OTHER

We have a duty to mutually shape each another. If the shaping is happening only in one direction, then it is an imposition. It’s a heavy load if he’s always putting her straight, and not the reverse. We have a duty to shape each other with courtesy and kindness. Luther said, “Marriage is a school for character.”

7. A DEBT OF PATIENCE
We are probably not the same in terms of their gifts, abilities, or the way we think. One has strengths in one area, the other in another area. We need great patience with each other.
If a husband is constantly impatient towards his wife, it’s probably because he’s proud. It’s the same the other way around. If she constantly runs out of patience, it’s likely pride.
So let’s get rid of this pride, and have patience with each other. Learn to appreciate each other more and more.

Do you see why this is such a wonderful phrase - the words: “due benevolence”?

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“Submit to one another”. Eph. 5L21
“Let no debt remain outstanding except the continual debt to love one another; for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.” Rom. 13: 8

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cont'd from last post...


No doubt, any of us can think of several ways that husbands and wives can pay their debt of love to each other - besides the 7 means presented by Dr. Masters. But you get the idea, don’t you.

When we see the phrase “due benevolence” in 1 Cor. 7:3 in the fuller dimension of married life (besides sex), we begin to see the fuller BENEFITS of Christian submission. In marriage the benefits are reaped through the overall wellbeing of both husband and wife. These benefits include joy, security, peace, cooperation, goal setting, meaningful accomplishments, and fruitfulness.

And much more: Working towards one another’s spiritual maturation benefits not only husband and wife. It benefits their offspring, the church, and society. And it brings glory to the name of God – today, and in the future.

We need not dispute over whether the Greek word, “eunoia” was or was not in the most reliable original manuscripts. Dr. Masters has applied it in perfect harmony with the text, and overall message of scripture. Through his few basic applications, he put substance to that one word which so often lacks any meaningful substance: LOVE. He has brought richer meaning to the Greatest Commandment - in a relationship where it is often most glaringly deficient: marriage.

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“Submit to one another”. Eph. 5L21
“Let no debt remain outstanding except the continual debt to love one another; for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.” Rom. 13: 8


Diane

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Every sin on earth is birthed by self-love

Indeed! Who can possibly overlook the destructive power of “self-love”! It is a force within humanity so powerful that, if unchecked, can destroy our entire existence. I daresay, it is a diabolic energy that permeates mankind – both personally as a human being, and collectively as the human race.

There is indeed a kind of "love" that is intensely destructive.

To be cont’d…..

(That is, GIG, I am not ignoring your post. This is too important topic to overlook .... or on the other hand, handle loosely.)

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Love for self. That’s the topic of this post. So far in this thread we’ve seen approximately 10 biblical references in which loving yourself is, in fact, divine law – as in the words “love your neighbor as yourself”. Now we ask: How many times do we see references to love of self in the sinful context? Answer: Very few. Here’s about the closest we get in the Greek:

[philautos] translated as “lovers of themselves” 2 Tim. 3:2. You’ll recognize the two parts, [phil-] + [-autos] = “love” + “self” . By the way, here are two similar compound structures:

1) philarguros: lover of money Lk. 16:14
2) philedonos: lovers of pleasure 2 Tim. 3:4

In scripture the ratio between good love of self and bad love of self is about 10:1. Yet this ratio has become reversed in our thinking. For many conscientious people of God, LOVE OF SELF is assumed to be synonymous with sin. I suspect two reasons: 1) the way we use the word “love”, and 2) they way we perceive the “self”. But, I don’t believe it is wise to simply accept this status quo. We want to restore the biblical standard.

In order to revive the Biblical use of the words “as yourself” in the Great Commandment, we will need to examine these two words: “love” and “self” – at least, for starts. It will require us to hold off conclusions and set aside our presuppositions. I believe this is a worthwhile endeavor, because having a godly love for ourselves can help strengthen our love towards others and thus our capacity to fulfill God’s law. It can better equip us for our calling and purpose - and thus bring glory to God in our fallen world.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Diane

See you later……

S
sermonindex

Wouldn’t you agree?

Nope.

2 Tim 3:1-5

3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
KJV

It is indeed perilous times when men are lovers of themselves. Not sure how one can love and deny himself at the same time?

Love of money is love of self, because all that loved money can be used for is service of self in some manner.

The love of money is the root of all evil, and it is rooted in love of self.

OJ

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roadsign


Old_Joe, It sounds like you’re thinking about narcissism. Check out this article. I suspect it resonates with your thoughts – in the way it addresses a 21st century world crisis:

Financial crisis and Narcissism
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/jr-nyquist/2011/12/29/financial-crisis-narcissism

J
jochbaptist

Hi Diane

You said - The quality of Christian submission is best demonstrated in Jesus Christ – most notably, his submission to evil man.

I think what you said here, is something that I believe can be the very thing that disempowers people that has to walk in submission. Jesus did not submit to evil men, but to God, His Father, and entrusted Himself to Him who judges fairly. For instace, a wife can never walk in true submission to her husband, unless she has entrusted her life to Him first. When she can not trust Him, true submission is a fearfull place to her. But when she has been fully persuaded that He is able to keep her, and His plans for her is to bless her, to give her a hope and a future, and not to harm her, she is able.

For me, true submission in marriage, is when the husband has offered up all his dreams and passions, to allign himself with Jesus' mission, and the wife has offered up all her dreams and passions to allign herself with her husband's mission. Then they are in sub-mission ..

Blessings

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roadsign

Jesus did not submit to evil men, but to God, His Father

Yes and no. The two are not mutually exclusive. And that’s the point, is it not? It’s a paradox.

I think what you said here, is something that I believe can be the very thing that disempowers people that has to walk in submission.

Yes JB, it’s definitely possible! And for a good reason: When the word “submission” is extracted from the wider biblical message (as summarized in the Great Commandment), then “submission” can indeed take on a destructive nuance. It can suggest passive acceptance of evil or impotent compliance to higher powers. If this is what our listener understands us to be suggesting, then we can expect them to reject our words – and rightfully so! We are not on the same page. Oh, how many disputes have raged at this very roadblock! It is the age-old woe – where biblical terms get extracted from each other – and you end up with a dead cadaver cut up into pieces. Our Bible words lose their LIFE - and then, as Keith Green once noted, we insert new “scriptures” to make up for the loss. Like these unspoken assumptions:

“Thou shalt submit to one another as it fits your categories.”
“Thou shalt love the deserving (as those words mean to you).”


With that in mind, JB, I see a potential challenge in your two examples: If we must not apply the word “submit” in reference to Jesus’ and evil sinners, then by the same reason we cannot apply the word “submit” to wives whose husbands are not pursuing godly mission. And frankly, I meet many Christian women who have come to believe that they cannot obey God in this matter unless their husband’s change. It is causing untold grief. Many wives are in turmoil because of the way “submit” is used. For them to obey God on this matter would be synonymous with following an ungodly path – maybe a path to hell itself. Do you see what happens when we diminish the biblical function of a word and make it fit our categories? It doesn’t fit somewhere else!

Now back to your earlier point about Jesus and submission. Jesus could indeed submit to evil people because he was submitted to God. In other words he was rooted in God’s love – for himself and humanity. It is significant, is it not, that in scripture the call to love our neighbor (those in our lives) is intrinsically linked with the call to love God?

You can’t chop apart the great commandment! Paul understood that. Consider his prayer in Ephesians –that the saints be firmly rooted in his love. Paul realized that loving God is more than merely a dutiful compliance to a list of rules. To love God is to receive his love. Here is our starting place for biblical submission. In fact, apart from centeredness in God’s love – then the potential in this entire topic risks collapsing. We merely trip on severed cadaver parts.


“And I pray that you,
being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people,
to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge
—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.”

Eph. 3

Diane

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roadsign

We can all agree that the words” self-love” is virtually synonymous with sin. Yet try saying the Great Commandment several times, and leave out the last two words, “as yourself”. Like this:

“The second is this: Love your neighbor. (Period)”

“… the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor.”

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and love your neighbor.”

You know this is wrong, don’t you? We have a dilemma to solve.

Here’s a personal story, which may help us distinguish unholy self-love from holy self-love:

When Self-love is Really Self-hatred

As I was exiting the auditorium after a concert, I noticed a small pile of scattered items. This was obviously a grab–pile, free for the taking. So I set down my purse, and went rummaging through the pile. I picked up some necklaces, earrings, scarves, and placed them near my purse. Then I gathered up a few more things... and more… and more. The display of items seemed to grow larger and larger as I gathered. It spread so wide that it soon looked more like a gigantic yard sale. As I was furiously gathering up my stock, I remember thinking several times: I really don’t need this; I already have that; that’s not really that pretty. I also had a faint sense of others nearby, also hording things. Yet I could not dislodge myself from my own mission enough to look at them. Finally, when I felt adequately supplied, I went to retrieve my purse. But I could not find it. I searched through the mountain of stuff I had gathered - until it was finally clear that it was gone. Horrors!

Then I awoke. This was my dream last night - an answer to my prayer regarding this topic about self-love. It serves as a perfect visual aid for our theological quandary. Let me explain.

In this dream, the evidence of self-indulgent love for the things of the world is obvious. You can see the addictive drive: the insatiable craving, lack of self-control, being too self-absorbed to notice my neighbour or care about his own emptiness.

If you explore the word, “narcissism” on the internet you will quickly see the parallels in this dream.

Did you notice what was lost? It was my purse, most significantly the items in it: proofs of identification, credit card, health card, keys, money, cell phone and so forth. I lost everything that was important as far as my temporal identity is concerned. I had abandoned my identity, my place in the world, and my means of fulfilling my life responsibilities. You could say: I despised it, and sold it all for a “bowl of stew”.

You know where this is going, don’t you? You recall Esau who despised his birthright, which in essence was his identity, his calling, and his entire inheritance. He despised his very destiny. At the most fundamental level, he hated himself - who he was, his very being. It was - to borrow from Old_Joe’s earlier post - a setting aside, pushing away, rejection of himself – the antithesis of self love (in the true sense). It was a rejection of God’s love. It was not truly self love; it was self-hate.

Earlier I spoke of a love triangle, as seen in the Great Commandment. Love between God, others and self form the arms of a triangle: When all sides are strong, you have an indestructible structure. In Esau’s life, we see a complete breakdown of that triangle: Esau hated himself, God hated him (set him aside), and Esau hated his brother.

Hatred of self is at its essence a hatred of what God has wrought. It is a rejection of his love, and a failure to embrace his love as one’s own. It is a rejection of one’s identity in Christ and one’s God-given destiny in the world. When we fail to embrace our birthright offered through Christ, we despise ourselves at the very core, and we instead go after pitiful bowls of stew.

Conversely, to love yourself is to embrace God’s love for you - to love what God loves: yourself.

To the extent that you love God, you can love yourself, and then you are free to love others - that is, remain centered in your God-given destiny. And you will value and preserve your true God-given self-identity. Loving yourself reflects your deep, rich love for God and others.

Diane

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In scripture, Esau wasn’t the only one who abandoned his birthright. Adam and Eve did too. What was the “pot of stew” which they preferred? What did that forbidden fruit symbolize? What was so much more enticing than their beloved birthright – their privileged place of fellowship with God, their eternal inheritance, their very identity in God’s household? What made the couple despise their birthright – and in that sense, despise their very selves and their God?

Scripture records the immediate effects of their lost birthright: They tried hiding from themselves and from their God behind a pathetic set of fig leaves. And they also hid from each other behind a self-defensive shield: blame. Here we see the first indication of a failure to love “your neighbor”.

Cont’d…

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roadsign

In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve possessed everything they could have wanted. They enjoyed blissful relationships - intimacy with God and also with each other. They enjoyed absolute security in their heavenly Father’s love. Being fully centered in Him, their lives were filled with purpose and meaning. They had nothing to fear.

How is it then that Adam and Eve exchanged such a magnificent birthright for a meager “pot of stew” - that “pot of stew” in which humankind has been submerged ever since?

In a sense, this was not the actual exchange the couple made – at least, not in their minds. After the serpent was done with his trickery, Adam and Eve had lost sight of their birthright. They were now thinking about the deprivations God had inflicted on them: Why in this Garden it’s not so wonderful after all! You can’t even TOUCH the fruit!

The serpent’s first strategy was to convince the pair that God had unworthy motives. Satan asked Eve, “Did God really say, “You must not eat from any tree in the garden?” He began with a lie, and then he accused God of lying. Eve had only partly corrected him. She herself added a prohibition, that “…you must not TOUCH [the fruit] ” But God never said that. Here we see an exaggeration of the prohibitions – a tendency that has plagued Christianity whenever Christians lose sight of their glorious inheritance. And God becomes caricatured as a rigid, restrictive, distanced deity.

Now that Adam and Eve have adopted a distorted image of God, they are ready for Satan’s better deal: They themselves can now be as gods, and possess a knowledge which far exceeded their present perceived limitations. And they can live forever. They can be more than human.

Since then every human has come into the world afflicted by in this fallen condition. Without a true awareness of God as God, they have no true sense of their humanness. They set out to master their own lives and be their own gods. Yet their souls remain empty and needy.

The drivenness we see towards false pursuits, selfish cravings, worldly ambitions, and legalisms are all ways of hiding from self, from God and from others. These are the “fig leaves”. This is never true love for self. And it is not love of the true self. It is, really, living a lie. And it is ultimately destructive. The fig leaves will crumble.

Conversely, a true love of yourself is truthful. It compels you towards ever-deepening repentance. You shed more and more of your false loves, and you open your heart wider and wider towards God. You let God love you – fully and unreservedly. You hunger, more and more, for the righteousness of God to fill you. To love yourself in this way is to accept your humanness - your true self, and you let God be God. It is an expression of your love for God and his glorious inheritance for you through Christ.


When you have been truly restored to God and have embraced your birthright, how can you not express this love in your relationship with others?


R
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Have you ever heard someone say to you,” “God loves me JUST the way I am, and I must also love myself JUST the way I am.” You sense a twinge of anxiety behind this emphatic statement, as if she is wielding a self-protective shield against you. You know exactly what’s going on, even though she would deny it. She is giving you an unspoken warning: “Do not get close to me. Do not question my life or cause me to feel guilt. Do not threaten me by suggesting I may need to change. I have no intention of changing. ”

That’s a door-closer, isn’t it? I hope you know that this in no way is authentic love for self. Nor is it God’s love. For this person, the words “love myself” serves as a “fig leaf”. It hides the inner truth behind a mask - a false self. She has twisted God’s word in order to keep God at a distance -that is, resist brokenness which could lead to repentance. It shields her from pain.

This would be like someone visiting the doctor and insisting there is nothing wrong with him, other than a slight head ache. His denial it is driven by anxiety. He is shielding himself from potentially painful information. While this may protect him from immediate hurt, it is ultimately self-destructive.

In Psalm 139 we can see that King David does not want to hide anything from God. In fact, he finds comfort in knowing that God can see everything about him – even his secret thoughts. David wants truthfulness – at all cost. In this way he is truly loving himself and God. He does not want sin (such as anxieties) to come between himself and God:

“Search me, O God and know my heart;
Test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me;
And lead me in the way everlasting.” (Ps. 139:23,24)


When we are truthful about ourselves, we will be truthful before God and one another. Confessing our sins (such as anxieties) to one another is a way of practicing mutual submission. It demonstrates that we value each other and trust each other enough to be honest and vulnerable. It also shows that we value ourselves, realizing that unacknowledged sin can hurt us and our relationships. We willingly open ourselves before each other that we may give and receive the ministry of forgiveness.

“Love… rejoices with the truth.” 1 Cor. 13:6

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roadsign

Narcissism is a word used to describe self-centeredness. The word itself has fairly recent origins. If the apostle Paul had had a Greek word for “narcissism” in his vocabulary arsenal, I’m convinced he would have used it in some of his letters. He would no doubt have been familiar with the name, Narcissus, the Greek mythical figure from where the word arose. Here’s the story:

Narcissus was a handsome Greek youth who rejected the desperate advances of the nymph Echo. The gods punish him by making him fall in love with his own reflection in a pool. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died.

You can see faint resemblances to the Biblical account in the Garden: Adam and Eve reject the love of God, and the human race was destined to live their existence falling in love with their own reflection. Unable to leave the beauty of their reflection, they die. Thankfully that’s not the end of the Biblical story!

Here are some words in scripture which express the idea of narcissism. Note the frequent occurrence of the word “self”. Interestingly, the Greek words for these don’t use a specific word or prefix for “self” as in the English (other than 1 Cor. 13:5). I wonder why this happens in the modern English translation.

[eritheia] is translated as “selfishness”, “disputes”, “selfish rivalries”…..

“selfish gain” Ps. 119:36
“selfish ends” Pr. 18:1
“self-indulgence” Matt. 23:25
“selfish ambition” Rom. 2:8
“self-serving”, “self- seeking”, 1 cor. 13:5 (KJV seeketh not her own)
“self-imposed worship” Col. 2:23
“self-willed” 2 Pet. 2:10 (willful, insolent, arrogant)
“selfishness” James 3:14,16
“selfish rivalries” Gal. 5:20, “selfish pursuits”
“without self-control 2 Tim. 3:3 (KJV incontinent )

It’s not hard to see how these characteristics hinder one from submitting in Christian love. The focus is entirely on self. That is why this is not true love for self. It also obstructs a love for God or others.


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roadsign

For your interest (or amusement) here are some descriptions of narcissism taken from the internet.
Do any of these symptoms look familiar to you?

-think they are better than others

-self-views tend to be greatly exaggerated

-perceive themselves to be unique and special people

-claim to be an "expert" at many things

- strive to make one’s self look and feel positive, special, successful and important

-hypersensitive to any insults or imagined insults

-almost always attribute blame to others

-will cause an argument just to protect himself from a perceived ego threat

- When they receive negative feedback that threatens the self, they self-enhance at all costs.

** very rarely talk about their inner life, for example their memories and dreams


RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHERS:

-inability to view the world from the perspective of other people

-difficulty with empathy

-have problems distinguishing the self from others

-devalue and exploit others without remorse

-an obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges, often use “I”, “me” in conversations

- get impatient and restless when the topic of discussion is about someone else, and not about them

-Their sense of self-importance and lack of empathy means that they will often interrupt the conversations of others.

-deny remorse and gratitude to protect their internal sense of grandiosity

-not capable of putting the organization’s needs before their own needs

*** pursue power at all costs, lack normal inhibitions in this pursuit

IN LEADERSHIP:

Narcissistic leadership is a common form of leadership.
A study published in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin suggests that when a group is without a leader, you can often count on a narcissist to take charge.

*** people who score high in narcissism tend to take control of leaderless groups

They love to delegate work or projects, then interfere by micro-managing it. If it goes well, they take the credit, if it goes badly they blame the person they delegated it to.

They expect others to do the day-to-day chores as they feel too important to waste their time on common things.


IN FAMILY:

Narcissistic parents demand certain behavior from their children because they see the children as extensions of themselves, and need the children to represent them in the world in ways that meet the parents’ emotional needs. This parenting 'style' most often results in estranged relationships with the children, coupled with feelings of resentment and self-destructive tendencies

-Traumatic childhood undercutting true sense of self-worth
- learning that he/she doesn't need to be considerate of others


GENDER NARCISSISM:

-male chauvinism
- feminism – the reaction against male chauvinism


COLLECTIVE NARCISSISM:

-where an individual has an inflated self-love of his or her own ingroup,
- My group is extraordinary,

-If my group ruled the world it would be a much better place.

-A narcissistic group is more sensitive to perceived criticism exhibited by outgroups, and is therefore more likely to retaliate….

- intergroup callousness is the result of an unforgiving narcissistic party.


- and so forth.


Comments?
Maybe you can add to the list. :-|

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roadsign

You know the Greek word “AGAPE”, which you may understand as the highest form of love. It is our love for God and for others, as reflected in God’s love: “For God so loved [agapao] the world that he gave his only begotten Son.” John 3:16 Likewise we are called to love all humanity – even our enemies – and….. oh yes, even ourselves!

We also read: “Do NOT love [agapao] the world or the things in the world.” 1 Jn. 2:15 This is referring to misplaced affection, as in selfish cravings. Agapao is also used in this negative sense in 2 Pet. 2:15: “They…. loved the wages of unrighteousness.” But overall, agape (noun) or agapao (verb) is predominantly used as a virtuous quality – as we see in the oft-repeated Commandment: “Love God …. your neighbor.. as yourself.”

Here are some definitions of AGAPE from Greek lexicons:

1) the quality of warm regard for and interest in another, of human love, love of God and Christ, brotherly love, affection, good will, love, or benevolence.

2) to cherish, have affection for, to have high esteem for or satisfaction with something, take pleasure in


In scripture, love is not defined as much as it is illustrated. We know what love is by what love does. We see love in God himself, how he loves his children – and, oh yes, even sinners.

“For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
Your faithfulness reaches to the skies.” Ps. 57: 10

“But God DEMONSTRATES his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”. Rom. 5:8

“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us”. Rom. 5:5

“… neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom. 8:39

“But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.” Titus 3: 4-5

Diane

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We have now seen two contrasting meanings of “love” as related to self. Thankfully, we have the word “narcissism” in our English vocabulary. I think it is better to use this word when referring to a selfish kind of love for self.

The list of narcissistic symptoms posted earlier can serve as a revealing diagnostic tool. If you have read it, you probably saw that every one of those symptoms can be seen among God’s people. Narcissism drives dictatorial leadership. It fuels combative language and behaviours. It leaves the needy abandoned. It shames the stumbling sinner. It is suspicious of others. Even niceness and compliance can be self-serving. It is the polished “outside of the cup”. Narcissism is essentially a strategy for hiding from the true self.

Narcissism is a manifestation of our sinful nature, and is present in born again believers. I do not accept the teaching that if I’m saved and justified, I can view myself as sinless. That is not truthful. The Christian life is a journey of ever deepening freedom from narcissism through the inner work of the Spirit.

But, let’s admit, Christians get stuck and the Spirit is quenched. Denial sets in and narcissistic behaviours become increasingly “normal”, till they no longer register as wrong to the conscience. This is a dangerous condition – especially in the church. Christians assume that because they are God’s special people they are above reproof. (note the narcissism here) The conscience becomes numbed, or as scripture puts it, the heart is hardened, stony. The seared conscience can no longer restrain a person or group of persons from doing insurmountable damage to others – all the while believing they are serving God.

By being honest about our narcissistic tendencies – both personally or collectively, we are well on the way to revival. A revivalist, Ralph Sutera said “Revival is God’s finger pointing at YOU” God exposes our own narcissism by bringing tests into our lives which help us see that we are not a saintly as we had assumed. While it is painful to see ourselves in this light, we must welcome these grueling upheavals to our sense of self. It is never helpful to erect more narcissistic guards – to make excuses, to blame others, to self-enhance our image, or flash up a screen through an argument.

It is best to simply fall down at the feet of Jesus – and be truthful. Jesus forgives what is truthful, not what is false. This depth of humility before God is true self love – because it protects us from the effects of sin and it preserves our intimate relationship with God.

This is the means to godly Christian submission – and the BENEFITS are unfathomable.

Diane

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Hopefully by now we see clearly the difference between godly self-love and an ungodly self-love (ie narcissism).

We now move on to address the words, “love your neighbor” in the commandment, and distinguish godly neighbor-love from ungodly neighbor-“love”.

In scripture we read,

“Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.” Phil. 2:4

We also read,

“You should mind your own business.” 1 Thes. 4:11

Scripture acknowledges a difference between godly attention to others and ungodly attention to others. The earlier list of narcissistic symptoms helps us see a direct connection between the quality of self-love and the quality of neighbor-love. You really do love your neighbor as you love yourself!

The narcissist tends to mind other people’s business for self-serving motives. His obsessive preoccupation with another person or group shields him from seeing his own issues – which, in fact, IS his business. If he fails to take care of his own business, he merely enslaves others to it.

The narcissist is unable to view the other person’s perspective and therefore he is unable to empathize or care appropriately. A narcissist cannot distinguish self from the other, so will project his own shortcomings onto the other person. That means, what he sees in that person is often his own sin problem. Romans 2 deals poignantly with this besetting blind spot.

The narcissist is afflicted with the proverbial log-and-speck syndrome. His “help” is self-serving. It serves to enhance the self, not the other person’s true well being. Let’s admit, it feels good to “fix” another person. It can make us feel better about ourselves, and shield us from experiencing our own vulnerability, shame, guilt, and so forth. But this path not only hurts others, it also leads to misery for ourselves. And we realize, in exasperation, that we can’t fix other people!

A narcissist cannot enter the other person’s world because he stands above and apart from that other person. The narcissist readily offers copious advice for another person, but cannot take adequate time to understand the other person, which is necessary in order to help facilitate that person's own journey of growth. A narcissist lacks patience.

On the other hand, those who come to grasp and know God’s love through Christ become powerful instruments of God’s love and peace in a world of troubled and messed up people. These Christians are the ones who will make the difference - for the glory of God.

“…the greatest of these is love. Follow the way of love...” 1 Cor. 13:13-14:1

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Evangelicalism has been criticized for advancing a self-serving kind of faith – one which focuses on the self: It’s all about my PERSONAL salvation and what that does for ME. In the minds of these critics, it lacks outward focus and neglects the social needs of culture. That, of course, is a gross over-generalization even though it has much validity. Yet the criticism, in itself, smacks of in-group narcissism, with the evangelicals treated as the out-group. This has motivated the more liberal wing to swing to the other side and advance a social gospel – but at the expense of personal salvation.

We justifiably object and say: “Wait a minute! Skirting the need for salvation through Jesus Christ is never true neighborly love!” After all, when you truly love others you value their spiritual wellbeing too. Yet if we are not watchful, in our defensiveness we may commit the same error as our critics: We react narcissistically by hunkering down with our superior doctrines. We then merely prove our critics right.

The Gospel we proclaim would gain more credibility, I believe, if we humbly agree with our adversary and admit that we have excused the prevalence of individualistic self-focus in our faith. We are indeed not as caring about the social needs in our culture as the Bible requires of us. We do pass by the “neighbor” fallen in the ditch- who has been beaten by the ravages of a sinful society.

Ohh… If only each side could be less focused on what’s wrong the other, they could benefit enormously from each other by discovering their own blind spots – which, as is typical, is seen best by those on the outside. Think of the benefits to Christianity, if its many fragmented “sides” could submit to one another in this way. Why - they would find themselves together on common ground. Where? At the foot of the cross, together “wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked” - in need of our blessed Redeemer. And then personal salvation could become a massive corporate event. The benefits would be enormous!

That would truly be a glorious revival of Christianity, would it not!

Wouldn’t you like to be a participant in this kind of revival – as costly as that may be to your entire sense of self-image?

“… whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 10:39

Revival praying is a costly prayer.

Diane


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A passage from Oswald Chambers, “Biblical Psychology”:
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“Keep yourself in the love of God”. Jude 21 That does not mean keep on trying to love God, it means something infinitely more profound, that is: Keep the windows of your souls open to the fact that God loves you. Then his love will continually flow through you to others.” (166)

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My comment: The words, “Keep yourself in the love of God” is an explicit instruction given by Jude. While we know that God loves us, it is our ongoing responsibility to receive his love and remain in it; in other words: Let God love you; submit to his love. In this way God's love flows through us to others.

Lord, Show me in whatever way I may be resisting your love.

Diane

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We can’t round up our treatment of narcissism without bringing "on board" the infamous Captain Schettino whose narcissistic ego-mania caused of the sinking of the Costa Concordia on Jan 13, 2012. Reports are labeling the cause of the disaster as “human error”. Fewer are addressing it for what it is: blatant IMMORALITY. It is, after all, the antithesis of the great commandment. It is in a true sense, a vile hatred towards God, others, and self.

One hundred years ago the Titanic sank. People are now comparing the two disasters – for obvious reasons: The Titanic sinking was also a product of narcissism – narcissism of a mighty civilization: The British Empire. We can legitimately claim the Costa Concordia disaster was not merely the result of one person’s ego trip, but like the Titanic, it was also a product of a narcissistic civilization. It represents, in fact, the moral failure of a civilization – of humanity.

The writer of this thought-provoking article takes that approach: “The Costa Concordia: That Sinking Feeling”.

http://matzav.com/the-costa-concordia-that-sinking-feeling

This is a worthwhile read!

Comments?

Diane


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If you have read the article by Rabbi Benjamin Blech in the above link, you were likely refreshed by his emphasis on the moral implications of the Costa Concordia disaster. Yet - what did you think of his conclusion? He wrote:

What it requires from us now is the reminder that our emphasis on technological achievements must be joined to greater concern for ethical growth. Only with a commitment to both can we prevent disasters of Titanic proportion.

From our New Covenant perspective, these words are a premature closure. They sadly imprison humanity in their sinfulness, with nothing but a fragile hope in their own commitments to ethical growth. That exactly describes the people of Israel when Jesus arrived on earth. They too were zealous to avoid any more “Titanic” disasters in their history.

In these days when the darkening clouds of sin encroach on humanity, and people hurt each other more and more, there is an ever-increasing temptation to resort to rules to control the human failure. Remember, the world runs by legalism. This will no doubt happen in the cruise industry. But sadly, that will merely inconvenience thousands of descent people, while doing little to control future Schettinos. Note these quotes drawn from various websites:

But here is one accident that should not have happened. This one was not because of machinery failure or navigational error or weather or act of god or any of that. It was because of stupidity. It was about a man's ego and narcissism interfering with his rational thinking making him reckless and dangerous.


Francesco Schettino, apparently a captain of skill, but a deeply flawed personality now undone by his own hubris. Just as the over-reaching Icarus flew too close to the sun, the arrogant Schettino, convinced of his superlative navigational ability, sailed too close to the rocks.

On a cruise vessel, the Master has a god like status. He lives in accommodations not afforded by most and eats 5-Star meals served by his own personal valet and sips fine wines from around the world. People are always trying to please him, women (whether crew or passengers) are willing to throw themselves at his feet and passengers vie to be invited to sit at the Captain's table. A recipient of constant accolades, he is greeted either by awestruck silence or childlike excitement normally accorded to Hollywood stars as he walks down the alleyway. It is no surprise then, that their egos are often bigger than the ships they command.


The industry will now look for answers and fixes. More regulation may come forth. More audits may become mandatory. But is this really about regulations or audits or watertight compartments or dead-man alarms? Or is it about a culture change? And what really can bring about a culture change?
We all look for "lessons learnt". That is what we are trained to look for. "Root Cause Analysis" and "Lessons Learnt!" So when the incident is forgotten and the facts become fuzzy, will we remember about the human frailty that really led to this uncalled for tragedy? And will other cruise Masters learn and remember the right lesson from this incident? Or will they continue to act in a reckless and dangerous manner because it gets them the applause and pampers their ego?


Rules and restrictions can never make humans truly and sacrificially submissive to one another - in the sense of truly caring for the welfare of one another. Only Jesus Christ can – because in him:

“I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.” Gal. 2:20-21

The Costa Concordia event, like the Titanic 100 years ago, serves as a powerful prophetic symbol for human civilization – and is an effective contemporary visual aid for God’s people. Much more can be drawn from it - even for this very topic: Christian submission. I therefore post another link that could prove to be fruitful. This one relates feminism to the disaster:

"‘Captain Coward’: Behold our brave new sexually emancipated world"

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/captain-coward-behold-our-brave-new-sexually-emancipated-world/

Diane

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…a vast cultural catastrophe that leaves children without fathers, tells women they don’t need men, and men they can remain happy, care-free adolescents their whole lives.

from “’Captain Coward’: Behold our brave new sexually emancipated world” by Hillary White

The linked article (in the last post), from which this quote is extracted, shines a blazing spotlight on one of the most hotly contested issues in contemporary times: the function of gender. The Costa Concordia disaster, as White suggests, elevates the gender issue to that of crisis proportions.

You and I know, (too well!) that the church has managed to keep herself perpetually embroiled in gender issues. The reference list at the bottom of the “Captain Coward” article are church related: “Why men don’t go to mass”, “Catholic men and the church”, Catholic women’s lib”. I heard them. I’d say that they offer some relevant points for evangelicals. We too can agree that the feminization of the church has usurped the masculine function and this has weakened the entire church. I diagnose it as a failure to practice true Christian submission (as developed throughout this thread).

So, here we are – finding ourselves facing another relevant topic for our thread theme. I quote Michael Vortex's Catholic perspective and then offer my own comments.

“Masculinity is best understood as a .. journey or a quest.” Males must go in search of who they are. For the first thousand years and then some of the Catholic Church .. this was easily accomplished. Men found themselves ..discovered their masculinity in the Church. From the preacher monks who braved the barbarian tribes in order to baptize them .. to the Crusades .. to clergy who gave up hearth and home to preserve and protect and copy the Sacred Scriptures .. to religious orders which welcomed hardship for the sake of souls .. authentic masculinity abounded. But as time went by .. a cult of the feminine emerged in prayer and liturgy and meditation. A softer way of expressing and experiencing the faith began to seize hold and the aggressive and combative aspects of masculinity began to be overrun.

But without the elements of fight .. combat .. sacrifice and the conquest present explicitly in the faith .. with that lacking .. men intuitively disincline toward religion. If men are presented religious faith as just a community of the feminine .. they will find nothing attractive about it.

This is why so many Protestant denominations along with the One True Church Established by Jesus Christ .. the Holy Catholic Church .. have so much trouble attracting men.

Because men have virtually no channel for their masculinity in the faith .. they explore other ways to “be men” and they take their natural gifts of combativeness and strength
and desire for conquest and turn them toward gangs and violence and pornography and lust for power and sex and domination. They feed their innate desire for masculinity with poison and they become sick and die leaving much carnage in their wake.

Jesus Christ was the perfect man. It is from Him that all men must incline and begin to understand what masculinity is .. and what higher purpose it serves. Until the Church
returns to this ancient model of manhood .. of masculinity .. until it throws off the conventions of political correctness and mealy-mouthed wishy-washy non-offense giving lukewarmness .. it will continue to hemorrhage men .. struggle for vocations from masculine men .. be unable to produce authentic fathers and husbands with all the
consequent evils that follow.

from "Catholic Men and the Church"

My comments:
You can see a passionate heart cry here, can’t you? Some of this (hopefully) resonates with you. Yet, I trust that you can also see blind spots – like the suggestion that the Crusades was an expression of true masculinity. It could easily be argued that the Catholic Church’s expression of masculinity over the centuries, in itself, helped set in motion a strong backlash - in the form of feminism. Denying that will not help the matter!

Michael Vortex’s appeal (in his 5-part series) is convincing. Yet I see a fatal flaw. He does not offer God’s solution for the sin nature – which, as I describe earlier, is what drives the innate forces of narcissism – including gender narcissism.

Here’s a key question: How can a church that has set itself as a “spiritual covering” over its members expect the development of authentic masculinity? An institution that keeps its members dependent on itself is usurping the place of God and keeping its members from leaving the Mother Church nest and growing up into mature spiritual adulthood. In this respect, any church can be part of its own problem.

We can easily understand that we must all grow up and leave our protective nest physically and emotionally in order to make a new one where others can find protection and nurture. So too we must all grow up spiritually so that we can become a protective nest for future babes in Christ. And if we truly love our charges, we won’t keep them as babes, dependent on us. It requires that we surrender them into the secure arms of Jesus, we also surrender ourselves to him in our own process of maturation.

When Mary sat at Jesus's feet to learn from him, she was assuming what, in her culture, was a male privilege. Only men received religious teaching. That was masculinity. However scripture rises above culture. It does not absolve females from the battle against evil and the responsibility of preparing themselves to serve others – so that others may grow up spiritually.

Sitting at the feet of Jesus is an act of submission, not only to God himself, but to others as well. It is never a means of competing against males, or a feminist striving for acceptance through status and position (a motive driving some ecclesial practices). No! It is a desire to receive so that you can give of yourself sacrificially in love. The gift of salvation with all its gifting and empowerments in Christ, the Spiritual Armour of God, is not gender specific. From a kingdom perspective there is no male and female. Yet paradoxically, true femininity and masculinity are always vibrantly present in a well-functioning Body of Christ.

Conversely, it is the fleshly nature that pits masculinity and femininity against each other, producing unspeakably tragic destruction. Boys fail to grow up: and we’ll just keep on seeing narcissistic “Captain Cowards” manning our ships.

As for any sin disease, God has provided the solution for a problem that feminism could not fix – and God's way works!

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Here is a powerful antidote against the spiritual forces of evil - through Christian submission:

“ 1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.“

Titus 2

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Note the clash between these two quotes (from earlier posts):

…. a well-functioning Body of Christ
…and
The disaster [Costa Concordia] has the fingerprints of our poisoned and dying western culture all over it. H. White

This is a bewildering clash, isn’t it? It is a clash between the ideal and the reality. In our minds we have a concept of how things should be, but through our eyes we see the opposite. I believe this is one of the most challenging obstacles for God’s people in their calling to Christian submission. We have difficulty knowing how to submit to God and fellowman in the real world –a world which falls desperately short of the Christian ideals. That is especially so for the church – because for many of us, our highest ideals are reserved for the church. We wonder: How do you obey God and submit in an ecclesial environment that falls so drastically short of the very Word it proclaims? What if the church itself assumes itself to be the “spiritual covering”, or the minister is a narcissistic “Captain Coward”, or the eldership has more interest in management than in spiritual growth…. or where feminist ideology has infiltrated every fiber of the institution? How do you submit within any relational context when people are beset by baggage from fractured pasts or from false cultural ideologies? How do you submit in a broken church? A broken family? A broken marriage?

It is my belief that we can never be truly free to give of ourselves in genuine submissive love until we surrender our ideals. Our ideals get in the way. We end up loving our ideals. Then we manipulate others in order to satisfy our desires. And if people fail to meet our expectations, we turn them a cold shoulder – or strive against them. James wrote: “What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?” James 4:1

Oh yes, we need high values. It’s not that they are wrong. But we must somehow reconcile them with the real world, and real people, and real churches. Our ideals can easily become deadly idols. As long as we cling to them, we will see others against these ideals. And people will fall miserably short of the mark. But we will never know them and love them as they truly are.

Only by surrendering our tight-fisted hold on our ideals can we be free to love others – just as they disclose themselves to us – and as God loves them. We are then also free to love ourselves as God loves us. And we remember that God loves us, not because we meet his ideals, but because of his great mercy. And when we grasp the depth of God’s merciful love to ourselves and to our fallen world– then love will flow freely through us in holy submissive servitude.


“Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. … but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 12:31


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I married into a family of processional musicians. My brother-in-law has traveled extensively on tours with professional groups: The Beach Boys, the National Ballet Company and so forth. He's taught at university. One day many years ago he shared something that I can never forget. He said, “I could never enjoy going to concerts, because I heard all the flaws. The flaws took all my attention; and it made me miserable. Finally I decided that I needed to look beyond the flaws. After that I could enjoy and appreciate the musical contribution of others. I was much happier.”

Many of us are professionals too – in a different way. We are professional moralists. We have a rigorous knowledge of the moral requirements of God. And the more we read and study, the more acutely we become aware of God’s morality code – and the benefits they can bring to our lives and society. Above all, we know, they help defer the judgments of God.

For our types, our temptation is not unlike my brother-in-law’s: We become so fixated on the moral inadequacies (as we perceive them) in others that we can no longer enjoy their little offerings into our lives. We cannot value them for where they are and who they are. We can even become embittered and cynical toward a faltering “neighbor” - who may be our very loved-ones. But when we cocoon ourselves in this crusty shell, we deprive ourselves, as well as them. And we are miserable. James 4:2 could very well apply to this problem:

“You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.”

You may wonder, Can a desire for high moral standards ever become covetous? The answer is palpably obvious in Scripture. There you find extensive coverage on the professional moralists of Jesus’ day. That, in itself, is surely one of the most powerful proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration. It speaks blatantly into one of the most besetting temptations among God’s people down the ages – and even today.

You may think to yourself: James 4:2 would never apply to me. I would never kill! But you and I can indeed kill – with contempt. When contempt towards another person rises in our hearts we become destructive. Contempt destroys relationships, and then even our attempts to love become woefully defiled. I have heard many wives share their marriage woes, and I witnessed the tell-tale signs of contempt. She desires what she does not have so she kills with contempt. She has been coveting something that she cannot get. She may even resort to quarreling and fighting. Of course this scenario can be applied to any kind of relationships – but especially where high ideals are expected. It’s not surprising that the church is particularly prone towards contempt becoming a driving force. James 2 is helpful here because it address the root problem:

You do not have because you do not ask God.
When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives,
that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
(James 2:2-3)

The first problem may be that we do not ask God. The second problem may be that we ask with wrong motives. What could possibly be a wrong motive for moral rightness in another? It may be that we need the other to change in order that we can feel more secure. We want others to take care of our own anxieties – so we can feel better. It’s for our own pleasure. And when we ask God, we do not ask in faith, but in fear. “Please God, you must fix these people right away so that I will not fall apart with anxiety!” Of course, we’d never say those words. But remember, James is speaking here about MOTIVES. And, indisputably, anxiety is a monstrous driving force in humanity.

Anxiety is symptomatic of unbelief – the opposite of faith. The remedy is not the suppression of anxiety-provoking circumstances. That merely keeps us in our unbelief. When our prayers arise out of anxiety and not faith, then our real motive may be to avoid the cross. We are asking God to work contrary to his will for us. That was the motive among the professional moralists in Jesus day. Essentially they wanted Jesus to baptize their unbelief – by saving them from the anxiety producing threats in the world (like the Roman Empire), rather than from the sin of unbelief in their own hearts.

I am not implying that we lower our ideals. But I am suggesting that we lay them on the altar before God – and along with that offering, we put ourselves on the altar. God can transform our anxious prayers into vibrant expressions of faith. Then he will indeed answer our prayers - because we seek his will: the fulfillment of the commandment of love through our lives. And then, like my brother-in-law, we will be able to enjoy the flawed-ones again and even benefit them - for eternity.

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Mark 11:24


Diane

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Diane, I read several of your above posts, admittedly backwards in order, they proved to be good food for thought. Thanks for sharing.

May God continually Bless you.

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Guarding our souls from idolatry reflects an assertive decision to love ourselves. We accept that our cherished ideals can become insidiously toxic to our faith. They creep into our affections and become domineering desires - unbeknownst to us until the Spirit bears down on our conscience. And we accept this gratefully because we care about our spiritual well being.

I include here a rather surprising example: One day a pastor in a Revival Fellowship shared with me these words: “Revival can become our idol.” Then he shared how God had been striving with him on this very matter in his own heart.

I had never thought that even revival can be idolatrous! Would you have?

It bears repeating: Any desirous longing can become destructive – even a desire for spiritual virtue in another. We then center ourselves in our ideals rather than in reality. Our ideals take precedence in our thoughtlife over and above the interests and needs of our “neighbor”. That applies to a wife’s obsessive craving for her husband to be a stronger spiritual head, or for a congregation desiring a godlier pastor (or vice versa). And now we see that even a desire for revival can be idolatrous.

Notice how I worded that. I did not say that revival is an idol. The idolatrous desire itself is the trouble. Anything can become an idol – when it becomes a substitute for God. We desire what is out of our control and out of our domain of our responsibility; and we desire it for the sake of our own selfish sense of security, and to calm our anxieties. We may actually be asking God to provide us a convenient escape hatch and absolve us from the messy work of walking with others in the confused muddiness of their lives.

Here’s something I learned through my own intercessory prayer experiences:

I would notice that while praying for the restoration of moral/spiritual virtue in others, God would often turn my attention towards my own heart. And then my intercessions would move into lengthy and passionate confessions of my own sins - flat on my face. My only desire was that I could somehow get lower down. Even the floor seemed like a cruel barrier.

That was undoubtedly God’s Spirit working in me to redirect my motives. He was transforming my anxious prayers into utterances of faith. He was changing me. That was his will. But, that’s costly praying. We inevitably discover something we’d rather not. It’s God shining light on the dark corners of our hearts.

Here’s what I learned through my own prayer journeys: One of the most effective ways we can pray for another is to surrender ourselves to God. We then open ourselves to him to change us according to HIS will. And God will indeed make us more effective in our calling to love another – and to pray in his will. We may very well then become participants in the answer to our prayers. And we also discover that we don’t need a better spouse, boss, church, or even a big revival in order to be all that God calls us to be – right now. Yet in the long run, we contribute to the possible reality of those very happenings.

“Our Father in heaven….. thy kingdom come … thy will be done…..”

Diane

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It bears repeating: Any desirous longing can become destructive – even a desire for spiritual virtue in another. We then center ourselves in our ideals rather than in reality. Our ideals take precedence in our thoughtlife over and above the interests and needs of our “neighbor”. That applies to a wife’s obsessive craving for her husband to be a stronger spiritual head, or for a congregation desiring a godlier pastor (or vice versa). And now we see that even a desire for revival can be idolatrous.

Thank you for bringing this up.

Our idolatrous "longings" have a way of turning into laws. The tricky thing about it is that the Accuser is always on the hunt to accuse us before God but always has to use the law to accuse us. He does not care whether it is God's law or one that we make up.

But since we are no longer under the law (freed from the requirements of the law) that will not work.

There was a reason that Paul, after listing the fruits of the Spirit, mentioned this: "against such there is no law".

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Back to revival: Our longing should be for Christ and nothing else. In order to bear the fruit of the Spirit, one must know Christ, for without Him we can do nothing. We are just a dead branch "desirously longing" to be revived but not coming to the only One who can revive us.

Revival is not about anything but Jesus Christ. It is not about do's and don'ts. "You need to be more holy", "You need to stop doing this or that", "You need to love more", "Serve more", "sacrifice more". No, these are all rabbit trails based on law and you will be constantly accused of not doing enough or not doing it right. Revival is about seeing Him and knowing Him.

The knowledge of Christ cannot be taken away from us because it is true experiential knowledge which is our only source of life. It is not Bible knowledge. The knowledge of Christ is spiritually discerned not intellectually apprehended.

You may still be accused as Martha tried to accuse Mary to Jesus. Once again Satan uses the law to accuse. Mary was eiher not doing enough or not doing it right. Martha's longings were misplaced and not Christ-centered. As Job's wife repeated the whisperings of the Accuser, Martha repeated them, too. On the other hand, Mary's longings were Christ-centered and she was receiving true revival.

Praise God for the simplicity of Jesus Christ.

Our biggest struggle is our longings and to not let religious flesh crowd out Jesus (shutdown life).

Pilgrim

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Pilgrim said:

Our idolatrous "longings" have a way of turning into laws.

Yes, and then we impose our laws on others - and burden them down. It's misery.

Our biggest struggle is our longings and to not let religious flesh crowd out Jesus (shutdown life).

And so that's why they must meet their death - and be sacrificed on the altar.

May God help us - in his mercy!

Diane

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As you know, God commands us to love him with our entire being. No other affection must rival our love for God. Therefore, when we love our ideals more than God himself, God is no longer our first love. They have become rival loves. This is destructive. As for any rival love (idol), these longings hinders our ability to fulfill the great commandment in its entirety - also to love others and ourselves.

Our ideals, that is, our laws become a heavy yoke for ourselves and for others - a burdensome load of unattainable expectations. It generates guilt, condemnation, joylessness, and defeated living. It can drive us and others into either fervent legalism or abandonment of God. This is the tragic outcome when our ideals are positioned between God and his promise of grace.

At various points in our lives, God tests our love for him. He requires us to surrender our ideals – much like he called Abraham to surrender his dear son, Isaac. Author Dwight Small, in “No Rival Loves” describes Abraham’s experience:

“Think of all that was placed in the balance through Abraham’s test: In Isaac his every hope was fulfilled, and upon him he could lavish his love. (…) For a while earthly love and heavenly love became rivals. This dreadful trial was to be all the more tragic in that the death of his dearly beloved son was to come by his own hand. What a demand – to pit God’s command against his promise… GOD AGAINST GOD!”

You may think: It is surely too much to compare our ideals with Abraham’s Isaac. Yet, the effect is similar. What must be sacrificed in both cases is God’s highest for us: a promised son and a holy standard of righteousness. Both are gifts from God. In essence, our ideals, exemplify the holy law of God himself. The justice and righteousness which we crave, as distorted as that may be, reflects God’s image imprinted on us. In that sense, to sacrifice our ideals, is like being called to pit GOD AGAINST GOD – and all that at the work of our own hands.

That is in effect what happened on the cross, the altar on which God placed his own offering – his dear beloved Son. On the cross God’s highest, purest, and holiest ideal met death. The cross was God’s own altar: GOD AGAINST GOD. God against his very own being.

Abraham did not lose Isaac that day. Yet, in Abraham's heart, Isaac became a different boy. Abraham had proved his willingness to be disposed of everything for God. For us too, when we are willing to be disposed of our ideals for God, then in our affections, they will have an entirely different perspective.

Out of our sacrifice arises a new law – the law of Life through grace and mercy. And we become, not ministers of laws and ideals, but ministers of the gospel of grace. That is how we submit in love to others – as instruments of Christ. That is true love.

Jesus, Thy boundless love to me
No thought can reach, no tongue declare;
Unite my thankful heart with Thee
And reign without a rival there.
To Thee alone, dear Lord, I live;
Myself to Thee, dear Lord, I give.

O, grant that nothing in my soul
May dwell but Thy pure love alone!
Oh, may Thy love possess me whole,
My joy, my treasure, and my crown!
All coldness from my heart remove;
My every act, word, thought, be love.

hymn by Paul Gerhardt

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At various points in our lives, the Lord calls us to deal fair-and-square with our cherished ideals and longings. Perhaps it happens when we are required to forgive a loved-one who has failed to meet our standards. There are several ways in which we might be required to lay our ideals on the altar. I’ll share my own story, which occurred some years ago:

During a 40-day season of prayer and fasting, I compiled a list of my longings and ideals – gathered through my daily prayers and study. It was my wish-list to God – for family, friends, church, community, world, myself, and so forth. It included bible verses I wanted to see observed and fulfilled. I presented my requests to the Lord – with passionate longing. The list became quite lengthy. (That’s because I’m an idealist.)

Then came the day for putting the entire list on the altar before God - literally. I held a burning ceremony in a field. I lit the papers and watched the smoke drift up to the sky - and with that, my many ideals, expectations, and dreams. Quite literally, my heart-felt yearnings were going up in smoke. It was an experience of loss – of a death of a vision that had become fundamentally part of myself.

You may wish to perform this act of worship. And it is indeed an act of worship. I quote from “No Rival Love” by Dwight Small, in his account of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac:

“Abraham said to his servant, ‘I and the lad will go yonder and worship’. Abraham was learning, as we are to learn, that worship is essentially giving back to God everything he has given to us.”

It could be argued that some longings are simply selfish desires and surrendering them could not be considered worship. But I see no need to dissect motives. In a sense, all longing finds its origin in God’s gifts to humanity. The point is that, whether noble or ignoble, we are surrendering whatever rivals our first Love. That may include a desire for God’s laws, for a first century church, or for a nostalgic past. Simply put, we are giving God himself supremacy in our lives.

God provided a lamb for Abraham, so he could complete the sacrifice. Likewise for us, when we surrender our wish-list, God does not leave us empty-handed. God provides us a Lamb too. Only this Lamb has already been sacrificed, and this Lamb is now to be our first Love.

In this Lamb, we find all we need and desire, and in him we are satisfied. Only through him do we accept that we cannot have all our wishes now, and maybe never on this side of eternity. With all our longings now firmly fixed in God’s care, we are free to move forward in the love of the Lamb - in harmony with the heart of God.

Now we can serve God freely in our real world, not incapacitated by what we wish we had or think we should legitimately have. We can even accept our own limitations – and that may be our hardest sacrifice. To be honest, that is so for me. I am painfully aware of my own shallow capacity to love, while others seem to have a much larger “love” reservoir in their hearts. Here I fall far short of my ideals. My task then is to leave even this ideal with God, and to trust him to love through me and in me.


Spirit of God, descend upon my heart;
wean it from earth; through all its pulses move;
stoop to my weakness, mighty as thou art,
and make me love thee as I ought to love.


Has thou not bid me love thee, God and King?
All, all thine own, soul, heart and strength and mind.
I see thy cross; there teach my heart to cling.
O let me seek thee, and O let me find.


Teach me to love thee as thine angels love,
one holy passion filling all my frame;
the kindling of the heaven-descended Dove,
MY HEART AN ALTAR AND THY LOVE THE FLAME.


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I’m pressing on the upward way,
New heights I’m gaining every day;
Still praying as I’m onward bound,
“Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.”

My heart has no desire to stay
Where doubts arise and fears dismay;
[....... i.e., THE MENTAL LANDSCAPE OF MORAL IDEALISMS]
Though some may dwell where those abound,
My prayer, my aim, is higher ground.

I want to live above the world,
Though Satan’s darts at me are hurled;
For faith has caught the joyful sound,
The song of saints on higher ground.

I want to scale the utmost height
And catch a gleam of glory bright;
But still I’ll pray till heav’n I’ve found,
“Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.”

Refrain:
Lord, lift me up and let me stand,
By faith, on Heaven’s tableland,
A higher plane than I have found;
Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.


Dear Father in heaven,
I now surrender my self-designated role of moral theoretician for the universe. I leave that with you, God; and instead I accept, by faith, your higher calling for me. Plant my feet on higher ground.

Diane

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Richard Wurmbrand said, “Christians are very vague in thinking and speaking about spiritual matters.” * That is especially true for love, isn’t it? And love really is a spiritual matter. However, even among Christians, love has lost its rigorous meaning and has become essentially a linguistic sedative. This is a significant barrier which we must overcome in order to obey our high calling to Christian submission – lived out practically and decisively in everyday relationships.


Gisela Yohannan shares a testimony about how she discovered a new vibrant meaning behind the words, “love your enemies”. She had previously forgiven an “enemy”, but did not realize that she was supposed to LOVE the person whom she forgave - until the Spirit convicted her. She writes, ‘For me, forgiveness ended when I no longer held something against that person. ( …) Now I realized that there was more beyond that! I discovered that the completion of forgiveness was, “love your enemy”. But I couldn’t find any desire in me to ever want to get close to this person, let alone love him. (…)

“As I thought of this command, “love your enemy”, I had to admit that it was meant to be very practical, not an abstract philosophical idea. (…) Yet I didn’t want any closeness. I didn’t want to receive anything from him. (…) I wished to be left alone, and not to see that person, at least not often. I TOLERATED his presence. (….) There was no bitterness in my heart, no hate, no anger…. but also no love. Even if I wanted to love that person, it was totally above my strength, above my ability, above anything I could find in my heart. With all honesty I could say I DIDN’T EVEN WANT TO LOVE that person. (…) I couldn’t find or produce any love in my heart to give to my “enemy”. All I could find was TOLERANCE.” **

Gisela admitted that she could not love her “enemy” herself; but she came to trust that God was able to create what was missing in her heart. She writes, “I knelt down to pray, confessing my inability to love and giving myself into his loving hands to work on my heart.” After that God gave her a willingness to love her enemy. Her fear of being hurt again gradually diminished, and her trust in the Lord increased. God gave Gisela a quality of love that is impossible except through God, by humble submission to him.

Gisela does not disclose the details. But her testimony does demonstrate that love is much more than tolerance; and it is more than preferential love. She expresses how she found much joy in her heart as a result of her new behavior. This is a high benefit of Christian submission! That requires - not only the decisive choice to contribute towards the benefit of our “enemy” - but also to receive something FROM our “enemy”. Really, that is also an act of giving: It is telling our “enemy” how valuable he or she really is to us – and to God. It is the demonstration of forgiveness in its completeness.

Wouldn’t you say that Gisela Yohannan’s testimony effectively dispels the typical vagueness in the word “love”?

Diane

* R. Wumrbrand, With God in Solitary Confinement” , 30.
** Gisela Yohannan, “Broken for a Purpose”, 5-14.

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I again draw from the writings of Gisela Yohannan and Richard Wurmbrand –this time at a precise point where their writings dovetail in their discussion of loving enemies. Both saw the true implication of “love your enemies” through Jesus’ treatment of Judas.

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Here’s what Gisela writes:

“Let us see how Jesus interpreted ‘love your enemy’: Actually, Jesus had many enemies, but he allowed his most “deadly” one to live with him. This was not because Jesus didn’t recognize who he was. John 2:25 says, ‘He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for he himself knew what was in man.’

For three years, Judas walked with him on the road, ate with Him, and slept on the same floor. Jesus taught him just the same as the others, provided for his needs, and allowed him to be part of every event, miracle, struggle, prayer meeting and teaching session. He even gave him power to heal the sick and to preach. Every day, Judas was able to talk with Jesus, see Him and take up His time. When he finally came to betray Him, Jesus called him “My friend.” Jesus meant “friend” with His whole heart, because He didn’t use vain words. He actually loved Judas, knowing from the very beginning what Judas was going to do three years later.

“(…) There is not one report in the Gospels that Jesus treated Judas differently, put him down, or loved him less than the others. All the time Jesus knew Judas’ heart, yet He showed him love, expecting one day that he would pierce and crush His emotions – which were as human as me.
(7-8, Yohannan)

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Now notice how Wurmbrand also draws in Judas - at the end of this discourse. He writes:

“Love all men dear brothers, but bestow the greatest part of your love on the ugliest of souls. They need your love more than anyone else. You, my fellow-prisoners must show your greatest love to the Communist torturers and those who betrayed us.

The beautiful souls can endure without tokens of your love. Spend your energy where it is most needed. I lay especially on your hearts love toward the pastors and priests who collaborate with the Communist persecutors and denounce their brethren. I am afraid Romania may develop the situation that existed in the Soviet Union, where many of these traitors were lynched or stabbed by Christians of the underground church. The church of the catacombs had to be protected from traitors, and if there seems no other way, they resort to such means. The church of the first centuries did it, too, though those who teach church history don’t say very much about it.

But this is the extreme solution. In the Nazi times, we won for Christ men who had betrayed us and put us in prison. We should do our utmost to achieve this now [during Communism]. Let the Word become flesh in us, flesh of a MAN WHO ACCEPTS THE KISS OF JUDAS and CALLS (HIM FRIEND, even when he comes at the head of an armed gang to arrest you. Amen.” (49, Wurmbrand)

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Both writers are writing in the context of their own "neighbors" - those who have become enemies to them. For Gisela it was a man who had deeply wounded her (see earlier reading). For Wurmbrand and fellow prisoners, it was their prison guards. Both saw Jesus' love for Judas as the model of behavior which they were to apply towards own their enemy "neighbors".

To ponder: Do you have enemies among your "neighbors" - that is family members, colleague, fellow workers, business or online associates, Sunday worshipers... and so forth? Who are the Judases in your life? What is your heart's desire for them - and for you in that relationship? What might hold you back from truly and freely loving them? How might God be calling you to love them, practically speaking?

Diane


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Perhaps you have never connected Judas with “love your enemy” – at least, before seeing the last two readings here. That was a shift in my own thinking. I’ve always put Judas in his own category – a one-of-a-kind. Yet as I pondered over his character, I was reminded of my own Judas of several years ago: He was not unlike Jesus’ Judas. He was in the inner circle - with God’s people. He had “given his heart” to Jesus. He seemed exceptionally conscientious and trustworthy. He had never been harsh, and never spoken an unkind word. He was a friend. Yet, circumstances unfolded in such a way that he would sell his soul, so to speak, for a temptation he could not resist – at a costly price which deeply impacted myself and Christ’s honor.

In essence, this was a devastating betrayal – one that would ripple wide and long. My “Judas” has never yet expressed remorse.

When a friend betrays you, the impact runs deep through your own soul. After all, it is a violation of an earned trust built through sharing of time, ideas, abilities, and worship with God in fellowship with the saints. The psalmist himself experienced a similar betrayal.

“If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were rising against me,
I could hide.
But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
at the house of God,
as we walked about
among the worshipers.” Ps. 55:12-14

One day a few years ago I would see my “Judas” again. This time I was standing behind podium giving a spiritual address at a ceremony in a large firm, and he was in the audience, as one of the high-ranking employees. On seeing him there, thoughts about the past flashed through my mind, but I quickly set them aside. Afterwards he approached me to express his deep appreciation for my thought-provoking message. He was sincere, I felt. And then he gave me a hearty handshake. At that moment it was impossible for me to say words like: “Don’t you realize how much damage you’ve done!” I didn’t want to. And actually, that would have been hypocritical in light of my own message. At that moment, I could not hold any bitterness. It was impossible. I’m convinced that this was God’s love ruling through me that day.

As for me, extending my hand in that handshake was a tiny gesture of submission to my enemy. It was giving him something of my own when he requested it.

Diane

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“Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me.” Ps. 41:9

Betrayers can be excruciating challenges in our obedience to Christian submission. They arise out of trusting and sweet fellowship. They became one of us through mutual submission and shared blessings. We had invested of ourselves into their lives and built trust. Of all the people we know, we least expect betrayals amongst these ones. Yet this is reality: “Brother will betray brother to death”. Mat. 10:21 “Your brothers, your own family – even they have betrayed you… Do not trust them, though they speak well of you.” Jer. 12:6 Jeremiah was betrayed, King David was betrayed, and even our Lord was betrayed.

Remarkably, Jesus actually chose Judas as a disciple, even though Jesus could see his deceitful heart. Jesus did not deny Judas any of the privileges of the relationship. He shared meals with him – symbolizing their fellowship. Jesus shared his blessings and his ministry with his friend Judas - a friendship which was to be betrayed by the very gesture of friendship: a kiss.

The disciples had no idea. Jesus had never provided the inside information ahead of time. Even Judas himself seemed mystified when Jesus prophesied a betrayer in their midst. Judas said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?” Mat. 26:25 Perhaps this reveals how blind he was to his own spiritual condition and his evil motives. Even in the very act of plotting, he was no doubt too absorbed with the benefits for himself – the money and the approval of the religious leaders – to contemplate the consequences. Perhaps he saw himself as an upcoming hero.

This reminds me of a story my dad shared about a war experience in Holland in his church congregation. A church member became loyal to the Nazi collaborators and ended up shooting a fellow worshipper - no doubt a heroic act from the perspective of his new allegiance.

Scripture offers no promised immunity from betrayers. Quite the contrary! Yet, it does provide much hope and guidance. God is sovereign, and we can rely on God. That’s just what Jesus did, and God used the evil for good. This is not only a promise, but also a command:

“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Rom. 12:21

Even betrayers do not absolve us from our calling to Christian submission. But they do challenge us to understand what is truly "good".


PS: One question still haunts our minds: How can an evidently righteous person display such a drastic turn around. That’s a topic we can’t bypass.

Cont’d….


Diane

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Judas would not have perceived himself as an evildoer - not until after Jesus’s death. Certainly his associates, the Jewish rulers, failed to see any evil in their plot. They assumed they were helping God – by quenching a threat to his kingdom. Judas was not alone in his scheme. But neither were the Jewish leaders. Their traitorous act was the culmination of a long history of rebelliousness against God. We can’t forget that.

Christians often assume that sinners deliberately do wrong, knowing it is wrong, and they consciously violate their conscience. We may even assume they intended to hurt; but this is often not true. We must keep in mind that wrong-doers have been shaped through a myriad of life influences and cultural values – which have somehow led them to believe they are doing what is necessary and maybe even helpful. They rarely see the faulty core values or self-serving motives which drive their choices.

A few pages back we addressed the self-serving traits seen in narcissism. Narcissists are those who have an exaggerated sense of self-importance and self-righteousness, are never wrong, and can never accept correction. They have masked their true self so well that, to them, their inflated façade is who they really are. They can’t see other people’s perspectives. Lacking any capacity for empathy, they have a natural predisposition to betray anyone in any way whichever serves to preserve or enhance their false self-image.

But we are not going to talk about narcissism. We are going to talk about the prevalence of marginal conversions among the people of God. While betrayers sometimes arise from authentic fellowships, as in Jesus’s circle, those churches which focus predominantly on outward Christianity are especially prone to becoming a safe haven for potential betrayers – besides any number of sinful habits driven by unchecked, unacknowledged core values.

Scripture is replete with references about superficial commitments and hypocrisy. If you know your Bible even marginally, you will be aware of this problem running through its pages. I need not post verses.

Instead, we might gain a renewed grip on the issue of marginal conversion by examining it in light of a culture which is not our own. So we go to Africa – a continent which, through a long history of ambitious missionary endeavors has inherited some of western Christianity’s less virtuous qualities - marginal conversions being one – as suggested here:

During the past hundred years African Traditional Religion has been visibly sinking beneath the surface of modern social life in Africa. But what remains above the surface is, in fact, an iceberg. At Baptism, the African Christian repudiates remarkably little of his former non-Christian outlook. He may be obliged to turn his back upon certain traditional practices which the Church, rightly or wrongly, has condemned in his area, but he is not asked to recant a religious philosophy…

Consequently he returns to the forbidden practices, as occasion arises, with remarkable ease. Conversion to Christianity is for him sheer gain, an ‘extra’ for which he has opted. It is an overlay on his original religious culture. Christianity has really had little to say about African Traditional Religion in the way of serious judgments of value. Consequently, the African Christian operates with two thought systems at once, and both of them are closed to each other…”

Dr. Aylward Shorter, “African Christian Theology: Adaption or Incarnation”, 1977.

Of course this picture does not represent all African Christians! Besides, since 1977, the problem of marginal conversion has certainly been addressed. And its prevalence has largely been attributed to the infiltration of Western Christianity. We easily acknowledge its effects in our own church culture: Too often the change that takes place in conversion does not happen at the core level of the heart. It doesn’t address underlying cultural values. It does not change the basic presuppositions of life. Change happens merely at superficial levels – notably, behavior. But because core values do not change, when the occasion arises those values which are more deeply rooted become the determinative influence on choices.


In my view, there has been a disturbing preponderance of “submission” and “love” teaching/practice both in Africa and in the West which merely perpetuates marginal Christianity. Authentic submission, on the other hand, always seeks to protect and nurture integrity at the core level of the heart. Otherwise it is not true love. It might maintain order for a time, but is ultimately costly – in that it fails to reap the blessed benefits of the gospel promise.

Cont’d…

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An African pastor said:

"Sir, what you have said about conversion moves me, because I must confess, I have not been converted that way. My deeper African values have not been changed. I have merely become an imitation European on the outside. I have not learned to listen to the Holy Spirit, but I have been trained to listen very carefully to what the missionary wants."

This confession was made to conference speaker, Glen Schwartz, after his message on marginal conversions in Africa. The quote comes from a web article called, “A Review of Christian Conversion In an African Context”. It is found here:

http://www.wmausa.org/page.aspx?id=83837

This article aims to explain the prevalence of marginal conversions in some societies, while in others you see radical complete transformations. This reading is highly worth your time – not only to deepen your awareness of the gospel effects around the world, but also to equip and encourage you. We can benefit by understanding better what hinders or enhances gospel penetration. And, above all, we do need evidence of wonderful, genuine moves of God, where Satan is truly dethroned.

This web link will take you to the site, “World Missions Associates”, a ministry that has risen up with the aim of strengthening mission churches which have been incapacitated by dependency syndrome, (as described previously) and empowering them to be effective indigenous churches relying on God with a resilient faith.

PS: If you cannot access the link, please let me know. I can make sure you get it. I see it as helpful background for this thread theme – as it relates to our own responsibility in fulfilling the great commandment in light of the great commission.

Enjoy! And be blessed!

Diane

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In the previous readings we saw how the church is characterized by the prevalence of marginal conversions. In Africa this problem is closely associated to Western charity which keeps the African churches in a perpetual state of dependency. Missiologist, Glen Schwartz documents these findings in his recent book, “When Charity Destroys Dignity”. He describes how local Christians have become reliant on the foreign missionaries who built the church, run the church, do it much better, know so much more, and can offer a cultural lift. This assumption is perpetuated through the endless stream of financial charity to the missionary enterprise from outsiders - rich westerners. Such charity might make the western Christians feel good about helping, but their donations may actually be doing harm. The outside supply of money keeps the locals from taking ownership of their church, their decisions, and their own faith walk. They remain in an immature state of dependency – rather than become a truly independent and indigenous church capable of reaching their own people. In this sense Western charity is not always true Christian love; and their missionary endeavor is not necessarily true Christian submission.

Now we visit another continent and examine the devastation caused by this unbiblical love and submission, and conversely, the astounding benefits when these virtues are restored. This time we go to South America – to the Huaorani people (aka Aucas). Here’s the story:

In 1995 Steve Saint, son of one of the five missionaries who were speared to death by the Aucas 40 years earlier, returned to the tribe on their request. To Steve’s horror, he discovered that a severe dependency problem had developed over the 40 years since the gospel came to them. Apparently overzealous “love” efforts from outsiders had caused them to become mere spectators of the faith with little capacity for indigenous autonomy, leaving them highly vulnerable to exploitation. Steve Saint summarized his assessment with these words: “I would have to say that their need for protection from the overbearing, over-indulging outside Christian community, was as great a need for protection as anything else.”

That statement can be seen in a 6-page PDF called “Fighting Dependency Among the Aucas”. http://www.adopt-a-people.org/articles/dependency.pdf Here you read how Steve returned to the Huaorani people, not to lord over them (as they wanted and expected) but to submit to them as their servant. From that position he nudged them out of their dependency state and into a vibrant self-sustaining community able to send out their own missionaries. I highly recommend that you read the online article. It is worth your time!!

This document is worth presenting to your missions committee. But the message is for the Western Church too. We are also in a severe state of dependency – not only on a large ecclesial institution as a ruling body over our lives, but on our state and society as an endless source of provision. This does not make mature believers! Furthermore, it merely perpetuates the problem of marginal conversions.

Imagine the far-reaching potential today when Christian submission is practiced as Steve Saint practiced it among the Huaorani! The Body of Christ would be strengthened with mature capable decision makers – reliant on God’s Spirit and Word. Can you imagine what we could become, as a testimony of the living God - in our society and abroad! The implications are unfathomable!

May God raise up truly submissive servant-leaders in the church!

Oh…. and enjoy the article!

Diane

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I can’t resist a quick stopover in China. China’s Christianity is not to be ignored in any theological theme – including this one.

We have come to see China, no longer as our source of cheap merchandise, but of advanced technology too. Furthermore, China has become adept in sophisticated forms of culture - which we in the West are rapidly losing. I realized that while I rehearsing my score for an upcoming symphony concert – featuring, of all things, American Broadway music. So, here I am sitting at my made-in-China keyboard practicing to a Chinese orchestra performing West Side story on YouTube - under a fabulously skilled young Chinese conductor.

But when it comes to the Chinese Church, China is even more fascinating! China is in the midst of a massive, unprecedented spiritual revival, begun a mere few decades ago – without the direct help of Western missionaries. China is not beset by the dependency issues seen elsewhere in the world. In fact, westerners were all kicked out after 1950 under Chairman Moe’s communist regime. China became virtually atheistic - officially. Today, we hear of mass conversions to Biblical-centered, Spirit-living Christianity.

I quote a few excerpts from the book, “China’s Christian Millions” by Tony Lambert (c.1999, 2006). I draw especially from references to the Chinese church’s indigenous autonomy.

“It is in the rural areas that revival is most apparent….Here [In the Winzhou area] you can see a new church every kilometer..nearly all appear to have been erected in the past decade… here in the lush southern Chinese countryside … 18 percent of the population are officially recognized to be Bible-believing Christians. (…). A church elder told me that not a penny had been given by the government towards the cost, which had been ‘very expensive’. It had all come from free will donations of the local farmers and workers…. 29

“In general the old denominations have disappeared, leaving only traces in theology and ritual as is apparent in the [state run] churches. It is the older indigenous churches which have survived much better, probably because they were better able to adapt to the rigorous climate in New China. … Unlike the Western denominations, these groupings have preserved their own strong identity and ethos. 59

Examples in the older movements:

1) The Jesus Family was founded by Jian Tianying in 1921 … from his readings of the life of Hudson Taylor … determined to break free of foreign control and from the beginning the new society was totally independent and self supporting.

2) The Little Flock was established through Watchman Nee (Ni Tuosheng) who insisted… that there could only be one “local church” in any one locality…. [this] appealed to many young Chinese dissatisfied with traditional churches still largely controlled by foreigners. (…) Their focus on close fellowship in small group meetings and their freedom from foreign control stood them in good stead. ” 63

Lambert reports that there are also strong believers in the state-run church. They have chosen to work in the system, and in so doing are subverting the very system that was set up to subvert the church. 41

A historical event in the Chinese church:

In 1998 leaders of four major house church groupings, held a meeting in northern China to declare their basic unity in Christ in the face of persecution and to draft a confession of faith - as a means to defend their legitimacy and prove to the government that they are not an illegal "cult". Lambert has included the confessional statement in his book. He comments on it, saying: “The statement shows a confidence in the sovereignty and providence of God as the controller of human history. Maturity is shown in the absence of any denunciation of either the government or the TSPM (state church). The later may have “serious deviations” from the faith, but the TSPM-controlled churches are recognized as a legitimate “branch” of Christ’s Church in China. This shows a degree of moderation sometimes lacking in some other house church circles which refuse to recognize the TSPM churches as genuine churches at all, or to acknowledge (in the face of all the evidence) any believer who worships in a government sanctioned church as a brother or sister in Christ.” 69

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This is as far as I got so far in the book….. but it’s enough to reveal something of their spiritual strength, resiliency, and love towards each other. It is truly a work of God.

Diane

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Before moving into the issue of “lording over” I would like to recommend the book, “When Charity Destroys Dignity” by Glen Schwartz.

It is an eye-opening resource on the issue of dependency. It contains well-researched documentation - yet is an exciting read. Here you find strategies for overcoming the problem of dependency in mission churches caused by the Western Church. But its application has a wider scope. You also see why, for instance, giving away Bibles for free is not necessarily the best strategy. The book teaches you how to designate your financial givings strategically.

I see this book as a helpful resource for those who are conscientious about the spiritual well-being of the Church today – abroad and also at home. I purchased my copy for a mere $10.00 from Voice of the Martyr site. It’s also available on the World Missions Associates site. In this 373-page book you find a plethora of other recommended books and journal articles. I ordered a few of the titles. Some I found on Amazon.ca for as little as 1 cent (plus shipping). I see this as an economical way to build up a library – and more importantly, to help us use our time and resources shrewdly. It’s one way you and I can grow in our love for the church of Jesus Christ – and live out our calling of Christian submission – even to our neighbors in distant lands.

Then we will no longer be infants….. blown here and there by … cunning and crafty appeals for our money and time ... (from Eph. 4:14)

Diane

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“… not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.” 1 Pet 5:3

Perhaps you envision the one who “lords over” as highly domineering, paternalistic, controlling – and overall, a cold repelling kind of a guy. He expects everyone to submit to him, but never the reverse. Yet, the apostle Paul likely had something much subtler in mind. After all, he wasn’t simply eager to see an amiable running church; he was eager to see the spiritual maturation of all the members.

From the previous readings on missionary practice, we have become aware of a style of “lording over” that is practiced by kind caring people – by individual leaders and also by charitable church institutions. However, it’s a kind of “love” that is not true Christian submission.

The apostle Paul never heard of our cliché, “helicopter parents” – but he'd probably see it as fitting. This is a pejorative phrase which gained currency in the early 2000’s. It is applied to overly “helpful” parents who constantly hover over their kids. I believe this is the overbearing style of headship Paul is denouncing. He’s cautioning against helicopter-parenting God’s people – keeping them in a perpetual state of dependency so that they can never grow up.

That is a serious problem, because these followers never learn to think for themselves, to make decisions, or to lead new churches themselves. They become incapacitated, just as we saw in African churches. And isn’t that an apt description of western Christianity today! There has, indisputably, been a lot of helicopter- lording going on. It’s an ineffective style of leadership – for children in families and also for God’s people in the church. This is the very problem which Luther fought against so adamantly – and so do many courageous saints still today.

Now I draw from another term which relates to lording-over: the “overfunctioner”. This term is applied to the ministry of pastoral caregiving – and really applies for any relational context. It’s the person who assumes too much of the work in a relationship. The overfunctioner may resort to a lot of advice-giving and explaining– which is an ineffective way of changing anyone. The overfunctioner in the relationship does all the mental and emotional work for the other. This is a kind of ‘lording over’. It keeps the under-funtioner from having to wrestle through the emotional, spiritual, or mental struggle required in making his beliefs and choices truly his own. He can remain endlessly passive and irresponsible, while keeping the overfuntioner feeling busy and useful (and eventually frustrated). For the overfunctioners in a professional capacity, this kind of “lording over” may keep them worthy of their salaries (but also eventually feeling unfulfilled).

In the church, the lording style of leadership may very well produce submissive, compliant members. This arrangement may not seem like a problem for the people because it may have superficial “benefits” – like authorial approvals and social benefits …. and above all, the much-coveted sense of moral righteousness. You can feel right with God. But Jesus said, “What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?” Matt. 16:26

Helicopter overlords produce “converts” who merely have a second-hand kind of faith which will not stand up against the trials and temptations of life. Deeper core values and presuppositions remain unchanged. And so these people easily go back to their old ways.

Do you see why “lording over” is so bad? It blocks the path to eternal life and weakens the church. This, I believe is what Paul had in mind. He said, “Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work WITH you for your joy, because it is by FAITH you stand firm.” 2 Cor. 1:24

Did you catch that? True Christian submission works WITH people, not over them: “… not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.” 1 Pet 5:3 It is BY FAITH that the people stand firm – that is of course, their OWN faith in God.

Diane

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Paul’s epistle to the Galatians is in essence, an effort to rescue them from the insidious encroachment of un-submissive overlords. Notice how Paul uses the language of over-lording to describe them:

“… those people are zealous to WIN YOU OVER. Gal. 4:17
“This kind of PERSUASION does not come from the one who calls you.” Gal. 5:8
(ie, being led away from the truth)

Yet to Paul the domineering culprits are not the only problem. Notice how he confronts the church folk for irresponsibly submitting to them! They are the ones who must think and discern for themselves. They are the ones Paul holds responsible to comprehend the law of the Spirit. And Paul gives them all a succinct and clear theological explanation.

Interestingly, the law itself was being used to “overlord” the people. The law itself had assigned the “Judaizers” an illusion of authority. However they were using the law to suppress the people into slavery. That’s serious! The law was being deployed to rob the believers of their freedom of conscience – a freedom to follow Christ’s Spirit. Paul said:

“It was for freedom that Christ set us free;
therefore keep standing firm
and do not BE SUBJECT again to a YOKE OF SLAVERY”. Gal. 5:1 NASB

Paul cautioned: “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not UNDER law.” Gal. 5:18 Of course Paul is not ditching law in general; he is referring to its use as an overlord for the conscience - as a means to usurp the place of the Spirit. The scripture was being reduced to merely an over-lord for the conscience, severed from the Lord of grace. Paul explained the sad outcome:

1) Christ is of no value to you.
2) You are “alienated from Christ” Gal. 5:4
3) You have “fallen away from grace.” Gal. 5:4
5) Your suffering was for nothing. Gal. 3:4
4) You put yourselves back under the curse. Gal. 3:10

This is extremely serious! And more! Because this cuts people away from Christ, it destroys faith and weakens the church. Relationships go bad. In this kind of environment, the laws of submission and love become perverted - perpetuating the problem of dependency and spiritual immaturity - as described in earlier posts.


However! Let’s look at the good news! On the other hand, when leaders work to ensure that the true gospel of freedom is carefully restored and preserved in the lives of every person – the people of God will together become strong in unity, purpose, and effectiveness. You won’t have all that lawlessness to control!

“You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.” Gal. 5:13

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” Gal. 5:6

“The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbour as yourself." Gal. 5:14

Think about that! This is utterly amazing! God’s redemptive plan is far more than an escape hatch!

Diane

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Without a doubt, the biblical word, “submission” presents us with many difficulties. We know that submission is the opposite of “lording over” - but that doesn’t imply a passive compliance to sin - which of course is never godly love. The following story tells of a church leadership which finally realized that their understanding of “forgiveness” had merely been passive compliance, and it was ineffective. Note how a new united strategy of tough love, which was somewhat more in line with God’s commandment – proved more effective
(PS Perhaps it's not the greatest illustration for evangelicals ..just one I heard recently):


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Rev. Mark Belletini tells about a man in his church whose actions and words were troubling. The man was a pillar of the church sat on committees, sat on the Board, taught classes . . . a very talented man.

And . . . this brilliant man used to put away five huge glasses of gin on ice every night, but especially before coming to a church meeting. When he drank, he changed from the good Dr. Jekyll to the awful Mr. Hyde.

For example, at evening church meetings, he would offer cruel commentaries or insult other people with sarcasm and his superior mind. Sometimes, his minister was the butt of his cruelty.

But then the next day, without fail, this man would walk up into his minister’s office and apologize for his behaviour. “I’m sorry,” he would say, “I really shouldn’t have said those things. I really think the world of you, and I just don’t know why I said those things.”

Oh, he was charming and undoubtedly sincerely sorry. He never mentioned his drinking. The minister would say something like, “Don’t worry about it. No problem. Everything’s forgiven.”

But finally, one day, his minister realized that he was not forgiving him at all. He was EXCUSING him. Because his apology sounded so sincere, the minister was moving to the strings the man was pulling. The minister realized he had been foolish.

And so, the next time this man ambled in to apologize, his minister met him at the door, welcomed him into his office, and then, when he “apologized,” his minister said to him, “Apology not accepted. And your drinking is not going to be accepted at this church anytime I am in it. For years I have watched you terrorize people, including me, with your cruel, controlling and demeaning comments. I am telling you, here and now, that it will go on no more. I promise you now, if you ever come to the church drunk again, I will get all the others in the church you have hurt. Then we will pick you up bodily, put you in my car, and we’ll drive you home, and dump you on your steps till you sober up. You leave these people alone.”

The man went red and silent, got up and left without a word. This is a promise the minister did keep. And once, yes, he and a bunch of church members did pick the man up and take him home. But no one would accept his apologies any more. They demanded he keep his promise to work on his admitted drinking problem. And eventually he did . . .


(http://firstuucolumbus.org/sermons/ser20040919.PDF)

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The illustration in the last posting may seem farfetched; but it is more realistic of congregational life than we may wish to admit. All kinds of unacceptable behavior go unchecked. The person being excused might not be an unruly elder, but an unruly child whose disruptiveness captivates everyone’s attention week after week. Or perhaps it is the matron the kitchen who is easily offended and holds everyone captive to her anxieties.

The typical question asked is, ‘What can we do about this certain troublesome individual?’ But the more fruitful question would be: “What is it about the way our fellowship functions that makes it conducive for such behaviors to thrive? That question could be applied to families or any organization where certain problem behaviors persist.

The apostle Paul was not shaped by our individualistic society - where we isolate out problematic individuals. We send them to specialists for treatment or to jail for punishment – while everyone else remains unchanged and thus prone to enabling the problematic habits to persist as much as ever.

When Paul responded to the situational problems in the Corinthian church, he held the entire church responsible. He didn’t focus merely on the problem individuals, but on the entire church as a body functioning together. Paul left no one off the hook. For that reason 1 Corinthians has much to offer contemporary churches which are so beset by troublesome individuals. However, we must be careful to apply the epistle as a whole – and not merely as individualized bite-sized portions extracted from the text and applied to the individual problem people. That won’t do much good. It won’t help much to expel the immoral brother while the rest of the people remain unchanged in their habits of thinking and doing.

Wherever God’s people are a unified body of functional parts all submitted to the Head, their transformed habits of thinking and doing will collectively deter bad behaviors - even while empowering the less mature individuals to change and grow strong in faith. And together they build a strong Body.

Really, 1 Corinthians as a whole conveys the essence of Paul’s words: “Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ.” Eph. 5:21 Here we see the great theme of love in 1 Cor. 13.


No one can enforce that first step in submission: surrender to God. No amount of lording-over can achieve that. Yet, on the other hand no leader might even be inviting that commitment. Still, regardless of the situation you and I are place in by God, no one - no, not anyone can stop us from submitting ourselves to Christ and allowing him to transform us.

We can’t fix the "problem" people and certainly not the bigger problems. And it may be extremely difficult to run against the tide. But nevertheless God is quite able to use you and I to touch our “neighbor” with Christ’s love - through our habits of Christian submission.

Be encouraged! “He gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.” 1 Cor. 15:57-58


Diane


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You’ve all heard the love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13. But have you ever tied it to the Corinthian church folk – the issues Paul was addressing? Let’s see what happens if we do:

The first presenting problem is division. Now this was not likely an issue of all-and-out shouting matches or fist fights. Paul was not addressing conflictive behavior, but conflicts in thinking: strong rooted value judgments about the various leaders. Some preferred to be under Paul, some under Apollos, and so on. There was a problem with divided loyalties.

You see that same thing today. On Sunday morning congregants may very well be sitting in their pews, nodding congenially to the pastor’s message; but their loyalty may be towards a TV Christian celebrity – whose show they watch every day.

I once attended a ladies group where this was happening. Each lady had their preferred “hero” and would frequently quote from that admired person. However, it left the rest in the group out of the loop. Oh - there was no outward divisiveness among these ladies – but just a lack of cohesiveness. You couldn’t go anywhere with that. You couldn’t set goals, define your purpose for existing. There was no unified vision. Each person’s vision simply was that of their hero. At this “Bible study”, the bible was little more than a source book for an occasional quote. This group preferred to be “led by the Spirit” rather than be “overly” structured. But this aim really held the group hostage to divided loyalties operating in the minds of the members. Oh, there was a form of mutual submission, and it was touching; but it was not the kind of submission that radically transforms people from the inside out – or that makes them a bright light for Christ in the community.

You can see why, for Paul, divided loyalties was such a serious issue. It threatened to paralyze the church!

Notice that Paul doesn’t appeal for unanimity: Just all think alike. Nor does he say: Just follow me. Paul would not let himself be the head. He turns their attention to Jesus Christ as Head. Through the Spirit all of them had a functioning place in the Body. The Spirit was their trusted source of all knowledge, truth, and discernment. Yet regardless of their talents and knowledge, without love, it all would be fruitless.

Paul’s point I think was: Stop looking so intently at your favorite leader and love each other! LOOK at each other! LISTEN to each other! Consider each other. Consider your mutual responsibility to each other. Value the place of all - INCLUDING all the leaders – in your own life, and in the kingdom of God at large.

When love, as in 1 Corinthians 13, takes priority over the talents of preferred leaders – the people will honor their mutual need for each other. No one will feel ignored, devalued, slandered, or marginalized - or superior. Destructive habits won’t be denied, excused, or glorified.

In this way you build a strong family – made up of well-loved people. This kind of environment fosters honesty and integrity – and, above all, authentic and vibrant conversions to Christ.


"Love never fails." 1 Cor. 13:8

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In my last post I addressed the tragedy of divided loyalties in the Corinthian church. A recent event in my own life alerted me to the sad effect of this tragedy even for myself. I share it here because, for me, it has made the love chapter, 1 Cor 13 come alive with new relevance and hope.

Friday was the ecumenical World Day of Prayer across Canada. My own church hosted the event. I did not wish to participate, so I found a substitute pianist. I also declined an invitation in my own home town. I knew it would be dull readings mixed with dribble about social justice issues. I was determined not to attend. Period. But God had other plans.

On Friday, I happened to be in yet another town. It so happened that about two o-clock I was walking past a Presbyterian church and, by the number of cars, I realized that the Prayer service was being held here. Suddenly the tug from heaven descended on me and I found myself willingly entering the church – the very thing I had tried so earnestly to avoid. I received surprise blessings. But more: God had a key message for me– related to the issue of divided loyalties.

The pre-scripted program in itself was a portrait of divided loyalties. The scriptures and hymns said one thing, but the readings and message said another. The obvious agenda was a call to “take a stand” against social injustice. I’ve heard that talk more than enough.

My cynicism at that moment exposed to me that I myself am affected by divided loyalties: I’m tired of hearing left–winged rhetoric about “taking a stand” against social injustice; and I’m just as tired of hearing right-winged rhetoric about “taking a stand” against theological error.

Frankly, I see a lack of effectiveness on both sides. Neither side seems willing to listen to the other side – and each sees its position as true “love”. This divide is so disturbing to me that it is robbing me of joy. But God, it seems, has stepped in to restore my joy in him – even in this tragedy of divided priorities. That’s what Paul himself aimed to do for the Corinthian church.

For now, I present a quote which touches on this very issue. It applies, not only in foreign missions, but also in our own “neighborhood” ( those in our own lives). Here it is:

“As evangelicals we emphasize knowledge of the Bible, but rarely stop to examine the people and cultures we serve. So the message we bring is often misunderstood and “foreign”. The liberal wing of the church, on the other hand, has underscored knowledge of contemporary human settings, but downplays the importance of solid theological foundations based on biblical truth. This group is in danger of losing the gospel. We need both approaches…”

(14, Hiebert, “Anthropological insights for Missionaries)

The question: How can 1 Cor. 13 help the people of God overcome their divided loyalties?

To be continued….

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How can 1 Cor. 13 help the people of God overcome their divided loyalties?

Today, I find no words to answer my question better than Carter Conlon’s sermon yesterday posted by Joyful-heart. “Hope when Love is Gone” http://www.tscnyc.org/media_center.php?pg=sermons

Conlon uses scriptures which convey the essence of 1 Cor. 13. His message has helped restore my focus on both God’s remarkable provision and also my own responsibilities in our modern church so torn apart by divisiveness. I realize that when we have a clear sense of our own calling, then we are less prone to feel defeated, discouraged, and cynical. And we will find ourselves filled with joy. What an honor – to be called by God into this service of love towards one another!

I trust that you will be as encouraged as I am by this timely message.

Diane

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Pastor Conlon’s message, “Hope when Love is Gone” offers a prescription for the malignancy of divisiveness in our churches: the Great Commandment to love. Love alone (as described in Scripture!) can demolish denominational divides. Likewise, the apostle Paul prescribed love (1 Cor. 13) for the problem of divided loyalties in the Corinthian church. Indisputably, love is also the prescription for the great divide I addressed earlier: conservative vs liberal Christianity.

Since most of us here lean to the conservative “right”, I will address the issue from that perspective. You and I may indeed have better theology, and feel justified about that; but we may be far less conscience of our failure to love our fallen neighbors.

Conlon relates Ham’s behaviour towards his naked father Noah to our own behaviour towards the fallen. We feel justified in exposing their frailties - rather than covering their “nakedness”. However, we have an obligation to them. It is a love debt. Consider the many slanderous words and the ostracisms we have collectively practiced or condoned over the years against the left. Surely our debt load has reached the heavenlies. I believe that is what stirs Conlon so passionately. He is sensitized to the certainty of divine judgment on us for our failure to love. Conlon asks:

“Is it possible that we are so ineffective because we’re so preoccupied with exposing one another’s frailties? … We build what we do on the criticism of others.” In other words, our identity is primarily defined according to what we do NOT want to be. Our preoccupation is criticism. Conlon adds: “Those who do that generally don’t have anything else for themselves to say.”

And I agree. When we are more focused on what we dislike in others, we have little to say for ourselves. And we have little to offer. I suspect that whenever God’s people have lost their sense of calling to love, they have nothing left to do but criticize and divide. They have no sense of positive direction, no sense of what it actually means to love the “other”.

Many of us here (and I speak for myself) are passionate about theology. It’s a trait in our conservative “side”. Conlon has a word for you and me - and he uses the Parable of the Good Samaritan to convey his point. It is striking!

In the parable two kinds of people are contrasted: the religious experts and the Samaritan (he’s theologically illiterate). The two could depict the left vs right branches of Christianity. I would put myself more in line with the religious experts – certainly not the Samaritan. I was bred and raised in conservative Christianity – where theological knowledge was stressed. Conlon has a word for those of our ilk:

“ It is easy for our conscience to become dulled under religions study. We can come to wrong conclusion from right study.” And so like the religious experts, we pass by the bleeding man. But our conscience is dulled and so we fail to love. We don’t see that the person who has fallen is naked and uncovered; and we fail to cover him.

Conlon believes that because our world is so torn apart by divisiveness, the church can no longer maintain its habit of divisiveness. It is time to repent – and restore our calling to love one another.

What I hear Conlon addressing is essentially our calling to submit to one another – especially those whom we have been divided away from. We have a love debt, an obligation to serve them in such a way that they benefit. Ultimately it benefits us all – because it makes the church stronger. And isn’t that what our world longs to see so desperately?

Diane

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Earlier I noted that the left-leaning side of western Christianity has been more focused on the “love” aspect of the Christian calling – but at the expense of theological emphasis. For us who are concerned about doctrinal purity, these people would be our “Samaritans”. They are the ones who have strayed from the path. Yet Jesus used a Samaritan as a model of obedience to the command to love your neighbor; and so it would seem reasonable to consider how our left-leaning “Samaritan” relatives might be used of God to convict us of our own blind spots regarding our calling to love our neighbor.

Here’s the question: Might God be using today’s “Samaritans” to teach us an important lesson? How might those inclined to emphasize social justice and relief for the oppressed awaken our own collective conscience in this matter? What might they have to offer us?

That is something to consider, I believe. It might be that through our willingness to receive something from them, and by allowing God to use them in our lives, we can break down the long-standing barrier between us. Let’s admit, receiving something from another is an expression of love in itself. We acknowledge their value to us. And in turn, we reveal the beauty of humility and repentance that comes through our own acceptance of Truth as revealed in Scripture and by the Spirit working in us. Wouldn’t that be our own responsibility to them - to demonstrate the living reality of our own claims?

Of course, that exchange is hard to accomplish with a rigid wall between us – that is, when love has gone. Let us pray that God raise among us those like Noah’s two wiser sons who covered his shameful nakedness. After all, when we truly love someone, we don’t want their nakedness exposed. We want to see their honor restored and covered – ultimately with Christ’s redemption.


May God give us a love for our “Samaritans” – and in that way use us to break down divisive walls in Christianity and bring honour to our Saviour who prayed this for us:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” John 17: 20-23

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Today I share a true testimony of how love helped an alcoholic man named Joe become gloriously saved. Joe’s wife (my dear friend) had suffered a great deal through his addiction. A few times she almost left him. Yet God chose for her to stay, and he helped her through it. She prayed ceaselessly for him. She also prayed for herself – that God would enable her to love him. And God did. I would describe her as an exemplar of 1 Cor. 13. She treated Joe with respect and never spoke maliciously about him.

Joe had little use for the church or for God. But then one day he was diagnosed with a rapidly progressing cancer. That’s when he gave up his addiction and started thinking about God. Because he had been baptized as a Catholic, he chose to visit a local Catholic priest. The priest built a relationship with Joe. During one visit the priest confessed some sins of his church; and Joe acknowledged his own sins. Through the ministering of the priest Joe was gloriously saved.

The Lord later affirmed Joe’s salvation through a vision. His wife came to know about the vision only because she was habitually sensitive to the Spirit. Joe was unconscious by this time, yet she sensed that he had something to say. So she drew near to his bed (they chose for him to die at home). He awoke long enough to share the vision. It was a blessed affirmation for them both. Not long afterwards he passed into eternity – to be with his Lord.

The closing chapter of Joe’s life is a story of love: God’s love, his wife’s love, and the love of those who prayed for him through his addiction and then through his final days. And God answered. In love, God brought a priest into Joe’s life – a person whom Joe could trust. Through love the priest helped Joe demolish the walls he had erected to shield himself from church and from God. The funeral was held at the Catholic Church, in honour of Joe’s wishes.

Joe’s story remains forever embedded in the minds of those who cared about him, Christian or not. It is, without question, a display of God’s love shed abroad through many people.

…. And it would not be inappropriate to ask: In those final days, who was a neighbor to Joe?

Diane

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We’ve been highlighting the problem of split loyalties and divisiveness among God’s people, and how that pattern sabotages our calling to love one another. As Conlon notes, those who are busy exposing the frailties of others have little to say for themselves. In other words, when we are preoccupied with the elements of divisiveness, our awareness of God’s calling for us becomes dulled – notably our obligation to submit to one another in love – and its various practical implications. In this way we fail to benefit others.

Paul’s epistle to Titus was written to counteract a threatening problem of divisiveness among the Cretan converts. For that reason Titus is helpful for our theme here. Let’s admit, none of us can escape the effects of divisiveness among God’s people. All of us have been wounded by it in some way or another; and we have wounded others. We’re in this together. Titus can serve to restore and revive us.
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Here’s a suggestion for a Bible study:

1) Read through Titus, and then gather up all the points you can about the divisive problem.

2) Note Paul’s strategy.
Does he imply the formation of denominations according to preferences?
Does he suggest simply following the Spirit?
What must Titus do?

3) What phrase is seen repeatedly?
Highlight this phrase in your Bible.
Who does this apply to?
List other descriptions that convey the same idea.

4) Note all the references to character quality (and servanthood).

5) What must the people remember regarding their salvation? Why?

6) How do Paul’s various exhortations serve as an antidote to the problem of divisiveness?

7) Be blessed!

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If you have read over Titus, you would have noticed its many rich points packed into the three chapters. Here we can glean insight for our theme of Christian submission – especially in contexts where divisive people are creating strain. (And this need not apply only to church).

Titus clearly does not support a melting pot of theologies or a tolerance of differing preferences – as many today see as a means to squelch divisiveness and conflict. On the other hand, Titus offers something far more effective.

Among the Cretan converts addressed in Titus, divisiveness was not caused by “intolerance” per se, but by those for whom certain legalities took precedence over people. These troublemakers obviously had more love for law (as they understood it) than for the people. (3:9) They seemed unconscious or unconcerned about the harm they were causing, or about their own selfish motives(1:11). What mattered for them was the “right” way of doing things. That reminds me of a comment Harry Ironside made regarding the historical divisiveness among the Brethrens. He noted that: “They were good at breaking bread, but bad for breaking hearts.” *

Because divisiveness among God’s people is real today Titus has a key place for us. So let’s begin.

But first….. I think we should address Paul’s instruction to Titus: “Rebuke them sharply”. This in itself is a potential for divisiveness. Note that this exhortation is not given by Paul as a free-for–all. It’s given to Titus himself. Titus was grounded in spiritual maturity – and that’s significant. That’s also a point we can easily forget in our zeal to discipline the one we deem as in the wrong. I’m going to include an excerpt taken from the online testimony of one of our posters: James Lashley. You see here how he discovered this – the hard way:


“ (….) I became increasingly active within the church we were attending and even became a deacon after a few years. I began to grow in Christ and had a hunger for the Word and for His will in my life. (…) . The unfortunate thing is not long afterward; the church my family and I were attending underwent a series of trials, from dealing with dismissing a pastor to the exercise of church discipline. The latter I was personally involved with due to my position of deacon. Without going into detail, my family and I would end up leaving this same church due to what I deemed a lack of needed action in keeping with Scripture, regarding a certain situation. I felt I had been let down.

Satan and his evil spirits are very slick and I view this time as the beginning of a great fall for me. After we left this church, I and my family visited a few others but never settled on one. We stopped going altogether. This combined with a prideful heart I had developed over the aforementioned situation contributed to a woeful predicament. I now know that even if you are right about a certain thing, and can back it up with Scripture, you must have love in your heart and not let it turn into an evil thing that can be counterproductive.” by James Lashley

Read the full testimony here to see how God has worked in Jame’s life : (It’s a worthwhile read! Thank you James!)
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=43763&forum=13


The lesson applies to our role in any capacity. It’s easy to “rebuke sharply” our spouses, our kids, our deacons, our government, and so forth. But the road to spiritual maturity required to be bring about harmony in relationships is much more important for everyone. When you read Titus, you realize that Paul is aware of that – because that is what he talks about most.

Diane

*Harry Ironside, "Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement"

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Earlier I noted how the Corinthian church was divided over split loyalties. Over-loyalty is still a problem; but so is disloyally. It is quite acceptable to bow at the feet of a figurehead one day, and the next day, when they fail to measure up, to spurn them all together. Pastors get treated that way too. This scenario becomes doubly dreadful when we have no sense of guilt about it. There is no sense of obligation to the one now despised. (Having said that, I realize that all too often I have been ungodly in my criticism towards leaders.)

Paul’s epistle to Titus awakens our conscience regarding our responsibility towards authority (and vice-versa). In fact, Titus’ main assignment was to select leaders for the budding new converts in the Cretan towns. The elders would serve as shepherds to keep the sheep healthy and nourished in green pasture and protect them from bad wolves. Paul understood that the absence of leadership would predispose the little flock to vampire personalities (the lording-over types).

Ezekiel described this problem in Israel. “… my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals”. (34:8) And what was God’s remedy? It was the new covenant: “I will put my law in their minds.” Jer. 31:33

So, why not just have everyone follow the Spirit and forget about leaders? But Paul never advocates the abolition of leaders. Even in our 21st century, it’s obvious that without effective authority the flock becomes easy prey for all kinds of false teachings purported to be from God’s Spirit. We need leaders, and they need our loyal love – in the form of Christian submission.

I think it is significant that Paul calls upon Titus to select elders from within these communities. The converts would not be led by delicates sent from abroad, but by those whose capability and character quality has clearly been demonstrated in the context of their relationships. Note the references to the treatment of others here in Titus 1:

6 An elder must be
blameless,
faithful to his wife,
a man whose children believe
and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be
blameless—
not overbearing,
not quick-tempered,
not given to drunkenness,
not violent,
not pursuing dishonest gain.

8 Rather, he must be
hospitable,
one who loves what is good,
who is self-controlled,
upright,
holy and
disciplined.


After this long list, Paul finally gets to the point of “sound doctrine” – but certainly not to diminish its priority - as becomes obvious in his epistle!

A question to ponder next: What is meant by “sound”?

Diane

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I have come to see another reason why caution is needed with the words: “Simply follow the Spirit”: We were not born into God’s kingdom to be autonomous beings operating in isolation from others. God’s Spirit works largely through the Body. The Body imagery in 1 Corinthians reminds us that we need each other. I need you and you need me. And, by the way, that is why I think SI is a good place to post. Here is a body of believers who are sure to challenge you, bounce back your thoughts, and cheer you on. You can’t get away with error for long (unless it is a collective blindness) … or haughtiness either. But we also need our families and church folk. They have a different place in our lives.

Spiritual maturation involves the integration of doctrine with a truthful awareness of self and others. That develops through our mutual neediness and mutual submission. That’s how we become healthy and whole – spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, and relationally. That’s what makes a SOUND Body – God’s church.

And that brings us to that word “SOUND” - as in “sound doctrine”. “Sound” is a repeated word in Titus. It refers to health – as seen in these explanations for hugiaino, the Greek word:

healthy
spreads no infection
well
healed
whole

Have you ever thought of sound doctrine that way? I didn’t. I tended to see “sound doctrine” as all the right facts. But now I see that having “sound doctrine” is not merely about intellectual ascent, but about overall health and wholeness. Why did I never see it that way! Probably because of cultural influence on me – the way we dispense education – which is certainly NOT sound. You may learn a lot and get good grades, but you may come out of it still beset with anxieties, addictions, moral impurities, emptiness, and hopelessness – oh… and pride. You can get educated but never really know who you are. You may never develop the capacity to sustain a marriage. You may continue to live a lie, and never become whole.. and even be suicidal. That is also the outcome of unsound doctrine.

Whereever doctrine leaves the people empty, false, emotionally and relationally deficient – it is not sound doctrine. And that was the problem with the teachings of the imposters in Titus. These people were empty wind bags whose teachings did nothing to make the Body healthy. Quite the opposite! It divided the Body.

Sound doctrine produces sound living and sound relationships. Review the criteria for elders in Titus 1 – and you will see the evidence of sound doctrine in every point. And now we complete Paul’s list - with his final point:

"He [An elder] must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by SOUND DOCTRINE and refute those who oppose it." 1:9


In Titus, it becomes evident that it is not merely an elder’s clever verbal skills, but a sound life testimony that will successfully refute unsound doctrine.

Here are all the uses of SOUND in Titus:

“sound doctrine” 1:9; 2:1
“sound in faith” 1:12
"sound in faith, love, and endurance" 2:2
“soundness of speech” 2:8

To ponder: How can faith, love, endurance, and speech be “sound” – that is, healthy and whole?

Diane

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I’m very excited about my discovery: this word SOUND – that is, its meaning - as in healthy and whole! I see SOUND as a watershed word! It is like the exacting knife that divides good from bad. It also shifts the place we put that knife. We see that it’s not a divide between doctrine vs no doctrine, or of biblical accuracy vs inaccuracy. It’s reminding us that theological propositions are not stand-alone items. As Conlon would caution us, we can have a wrong way of looking at a correct proposition. We can end up with wrong conclusions.

SOUND (wholesome) doctrine involves a SOUND way of approaching and integrating scripture. That’s what makes our teaching healthy teaching. And that makes healthy people – whole and well. In such an ecclesial community, people can be nurtured into true wholeness; so can marriages and families. And in turn a sound Body will demonstrate the efficacy of Christ’s death and resurrection – which indisputably is the foundation of sound doctrine.

I’m excited about this word SOUND for another reason. It addresses the divide between right-leaning and left-leaning Christianity – the right-sided emphasis on doctrinal truths vs the left-sided emphasis on loving people. Neither emphasis is SOUND without the other. If we rightwingers want to convince our leftwinged friends of the reliability of scripture, we are going to have to demonstrate the SOUNDNESS of our doctrine. That requires us to be sound in faith, love, and speech. And it requires us to be SOUND people. That’s the point Paul is trying to make to Titus, I believe. Paul articulates the reasons for being sound in thinking and living:

“…so that those who oppose you may be ashamed and have nothing bad to say about us.” 2:8
“so that in every way [the slaves] will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive” 2:10


I say, we will be a testimony to the living God and his revealed word only as we become sound people – “sound in faith, in love, and endurance” with “soundness in speech”…. through having sound doctrine. Then when we do become persecuted, it is not for the wrong reason: “ If I surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor. 13:3

In a sense I am talking ideals about the church, and you know that we don’t live in these ideals. We can’t redesign the emphases in our churches, or the eldership. We can’t create soundness in people. We admit that we ourselves have unsoundness in us. Still there is much in Titus that we can glean that help us become sounder in doctrine and life habits – and in that way contribute more positively. I believe that the treasures in Titus will shine brightest for us if we approach it from our own sense of neediness for Jesus Christ. Look at its marvelous SOUND promise to us:
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“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, EAGER TO DO WHAT IS GOOD.” Titus 2:11-14
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So now we ask: What kind of good eagerly flows out of our redemption?


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If “love” has become a bland word in our vocabulary, now we are faced with an even blander word: “GOOD”. But it was certainly not a bland word for Paul! Let’s look at his uses of it in Titus:

“one who loves what is GOOD” (overseer) 1:8
“teach what is GOOD” (older women) 2:3
“doing what is GOOD” (young men) 2:7
“eager to do what is GOOD” (all the redeemed) 2:14.
“ready to do whatever is GOOD” (towards rulers and authorities) 3: 1
“be careful to devote themselves to doing what is GOOD.” (everyone) 3:8
“Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is GOOD…) 3:14

What is Paul’s criteria for “good”? First we must ask: What is the desired outcome of this good? Paul explains clearly:

“ These things are excellent and PROFITABLE for everyone.” 3:8
“.. in order that they may provide for urgent needs and not live unproductive lives.” 3:14

The good the people were to engage in would benefit everyone. That is essentially what this thread should aim for: “The high benefit of Christian submission”. On this point we could dovetail with many other scriptures, like the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Failure in doing good predisposed ancient Israel to self-destruction and judgment: They were not caring for each other; the powerful ones were exploiting the weaker ones, and so forth. It is significant that in Titus, an elder’s qualifications depend on his ability to manage proper care for the weaker ones: his own family.

Notice that Paul describes the imposters as “unfit for doing any good” 1:16. Their divisiveness over law was NOT profitable. It did nothing to benefit the people. There was no concern to protect them and build them up. How often do we see still today a particular law in the Bible become such an obsession that people get trampled over in the process? God’s precious ones get damaged – discouraged, neglected, and wounded … and easy prey for the wolves.

The Cretan converts needed to be good to each other because of their vulnerability. It’s difficult for us to appreciate their vulnerability because we are so accustomed to vast security networks around us – most of it provided by the state - and simply a lot of good fortune, thanks to God. Yet much of that is an illusion. We are not aware of our own vulnerability – or of each other’s. We are not aware of how we can harm another – even by our own words or by our neglect in doing good. We can easily degenerate into brute beasts towards one another and feel justified about it.

We are not necessarily aware of the immense vulnerability of our children. I think of my son when he was 7. Soon after he was diagnosed with diabetes, his best buddy said, “God loves everybody except diabetics.” My 9 y-o daughter, also diagnosed with diabetes on the same day as him, suffered enormously from her own vulnerability. I could not begin to describe all that they endured – just how vulnerable they really were – not only physically, but also emotionally and relationally. Likewise for the other two children. I think back to how vulnerable our entire family was. Oh sure, my husband’s income was secure, but we were seriously in danger of completely unraveling, especially with my own incapacitating illness. I didn’t have the energy to provide proper care in the urgent time of need. It was then that I realized how vulnerable a family is - even with many support networks. A family is a living organism that can be knocked down and die – if it is faced with more stressors than it has the capacity to counteract. So can a church family.

The Cretan society was plagued by "liars, evil brutes, and gluttons" 1:12 and who knows what else. For us too, in this world, we are like turtles without a shell, crossing a superhighway. Survival of our members must never be an assumption. I believe that is just how Paul saw the early believers: vulnerable. And that’s why they needed to become organized under healthy leadership, and why as an organism – their aim was to do good for one another. It would be their means of preserving themselves as a church – through the ongoing process of becoming sound people doing good, meeting “urgent needs”, and in that way protect themselves, not just from the world, but from potential self-destruction.

And so Paul says to Titus: “I WANT YOU TO STRESS THESE THINGS… ” 3:8

What things?

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Taste and see that the Lord is GOOD! Ps. 34:8

Recently I had an experience that served as an astonishing visual aid for our present subject: the meaning of “GOOD”.

My daughter’s husband (I’ll call Jon) is a budding young chef whose creative passion for the culinary art is astounding. He reminds me of a gifted composer of music. Jon works at a downtown restaurant in Toronto – one which specializes in fine culinary arts. All the chefs there treat their job as far more than a job. It’s truly a passion. They put far more into it than the contract requires. Their minds work relentlessly – thinking of creative, tasty ways to serve ordinary local foods. Their aim is to do GOOD– to their craft, their customers, each other, and the food in itself. Money is not their main goal. I discovered all this as a result of my own experience in this restaurant.

Jon had invited his wife and me to a dinner. The 8-course event took 3 hours. I have never experienced such lavish goodness in a restaurant. Each course with its miniature exquisite displays of such delicacies as crispy pigs ears, pork head ravioli, lentils, kale, wine pairing, and much more was served to us by the chefs themselves. The tastes were indescribable! It was truly a celebration for the palate. Our personal waiter himself made unending gestures of gracious hospitality. These people had a servant’s heart. And at the end of it all – at 11 pm – we were told: NO CHARGE. Now that is goodness!

So, why were my daughter and I served with such lavish goodness? Our waiter explained afterwards: It was a way of saying Thank You to my daughter for her sacrificial role. She had endured many evenings alone, managing her home and children alone while he was away.

Then we had another lovely surprise of goodness. During a casual dialogue with the staff supervisor I put my hand on my daughter’s shoulders as a spontaneous gesture of appreciation for her. His eyes lit up and he said, “Now I understand! I can see where it comes from!” He concluded that the goodness he saw in Jon (who was well-spoken of) came from his good wife – who was, in turn, effected by a caring mother. Of course he would have never known how frequently I grieve over my own past failures as a mother. And I realize, that even a “Samaritan” can say such nice things – but it was what I needed. That day, his little remark served as a taste of GOODNESS. I was encouraged.

Do you see what was happening? This restaurant staff was in tune to GOODNESS. Doing good was their true desire; and so they were sensitized to goodness in others. And as a result I was lifted up – and we all were. GOODNESS works that way. It is like a spark that gets a fire going. It spreads all around, and you never know where a spark will land and ignite.

There is another lesson here: Whatever our passion is – our skills, our job, our activities, as God’s children, our calling is to use that to implant GOODNESS all around us – but not because we must. No. We are instinctively “eager to do good” because disseminating GOODNESS reflects of our true passion and true character.

Above all, this is the kind of servanthood that reflects the GOODNESS of God – and others taste and see that God is GOOD: “When the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared… “ Titus 3:4

This is the high benefit of Christian submission.


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While we are still mulling over the taste of goodness, it is worth drawing attention to a potential blindspot. It is the assumption that only those “fallen in the ditch” need a gesture of goodness from us; the resilient ones don’t need it. And so our mission, we assume, is to defend the cause of the sick and down trodden – even as we walk past those who need nothing from us (or don't deserve it), we think.

However, my fine-dining analogy reminds me that our God isn’t merely interested in the “disadvantaged”. He doesn’t merely run a food bank for the poor. His goodness is exquisitely lavish – far beyond the bare essentials. To be frank, I find that kind of generosity hard to take. I’m a practical person who doesn’t want or doesn’t typically give much more than necessary. So for me, that fine-dining experience was effective. It humbles me – even as it draws me to consider God’s lavish goodness.

Consider the lavishness of Jesus’ miracles. Paul himself expected God’s goodness to be experienced and shared generously among all the parts of the Body. Note how he didn’t merely pray for the sick and straying, but for those firmly planted in God’s goodness – that is, his love.

“I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge —that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Eph. 3:17-19

What if we intensely desired this for one another?

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“These then are the things you should teach.” Titus 2: 15

“I want you to stress these things.” Titus 3:8

It is time to move to the heart of the matter: We want to talk about “sound doctrine”. In Paul’s other epistles, such as Romans and Ephesians, he begins with detailed doctrinal rhetoric first, and then moves into the practicalities. But not so for Titus. Obviously Titus didn’t need it all spelled out. Titus had been with Paul for some time now, and had clearly proved his soundness doctrinally and was quite capable of teaching it. And that is exactly what he was to do: STRESS THESE THINGS.

Consider carefully the following passage - the doctrinal centerpiece of the epistle:

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“But when the kindness and love of God appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to STRESS THESE THINGS, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”

Titus 3:5-8
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Here we see that a life habit of “doing good” flows from knowing and grasping the good things about God’s salvation. I am not speaking merely about intellectual ascent to a system of propositions. No. I am referring to intimate and experiential knowing – clinging to “these things” just as a mountain climber clings to the rock for all his life. “These things” define who you are personally and corporately in God’s grand scheme for humanity. Your quality of goodness is going to be determined by your centeredness in “these things”.

Paul is indisputably eager to see sound converts. He wants to ensure is spiritual fitness. He said to Timothy: “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things...” 1 Tim. 4:8 That word “godliness” shows up in Titus too. What happens if we view “godliness” as spiritual fitness?

Let’s compare it with the fitness emphasis today: An alarm has been raised about our dire state of physical fitness. Too much sitting is as dangerous as too much smoking. Add to that the alarm bells being raised about the state of our mental health. And then there are a few lone prophetic voices raising alarm bells about our dire spiritual fitness.

Overall – we are a seriously unfit society. We are not sound! But neither was the Cretan society – or the Cretan Christians before their salvation. Yet Paul points out that spiritual fitness takes precedence over physical fitness. For us too, spiritual fitness will need to be our priority. And then the rest will fall into line.

I am convinced that a pigmy-sized view of salvation produces pigmy-sized thinking and doing. Here on SI we find a vast treasury of sermons which can serve to nudge us beyond our pigmy-sized view of salvation. For starts, I will draw from two of them:

“So Great Salvation” by Paris Riedhead
http://media.sermonindex.net/0/SID0770.mp3

“Exploring Salvation’s Deposits” by J. Glyn Owen
http://media.sermonindex.net/4/SID4619.mp3

PS: Just a wee snippet:

Riedhead refutes the expression: “I was saved…”. No one ever said that in scripture. That comes from our stunted view of salvation. Riedhead then offers a fuller dimension of “these things”.

Diane

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I promise to offer reflections about salvation soon. But for now I am burdened to interject a practical reflection about elders. After all, Titus’ primary assignment was to install elders. Here are my thoughts:

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My Elder

Words could never express the depth of gratitude I owe to the elders in my life. I recall one time – when I was so distraught with the burdens of home life that I needed to get away. The Lord graciously led me to a rural home of an 80 y.o. farmer. His family had had connections with mine since I was a child. Over the years he had demonstrated eldership qualities in family, church, community, and even in overseas missions. He was a true elder – but not by accident. It was his life practice to get up at 5:30 daily to study scripture. He was a man of prayer ..... and hospitality. (Titus 1:8)

That day, when I arrived at his home and blurted out my woes, he provided just the right words. Oh, how precious they were! So gentle and uplifting. He also had a rich variety of reading material, and the Lord drew me to just the right book. On the third day of this “retreat”, I woke up and knew I was restored. I returned home – a new person. What happened wasn’t much. But that’s the way it is with the ministry of an elder who is in tune to the Lord. A little goes a long way.

Some women have also served as elders for me through their own seasoned walk with the Lord and their established commitment in relationships. Ever since my adolescence I have not stopped viewing them as my elders. When the occasion permits, we still have tea together and reflect. Some of my elders today are younger in age than me – but they too serve as models and teachers for me.

In my various church affiliations there have always been official elders (or however they are labeled). But the ones who have truly functioned as my elders over the years – in their capacity to model godliness and provide insight have not necessarily been those ones. My elders have been the ones established in my life through long-standing relationship and spiritual maturity.

Yet the eldership in the Cretan churches was not intended to be so “casual”. The converts needed clearly designated elders. That designation came by well- proven character. They had proven to be elders before being given the role.
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What about our role: Scripture reminds us that we have a debt towards our elders. It is our responsibility to do GOOD to them. This is not a one-way relationship. I believe the best way we honor an elder is to take them seriously – to mull over what we have received from them, reflect back to them what we hear and see, and above all allow ourselves to truly benefit. By receiving from them, we validate them as spiritual leaders. This is Christian submission.

I realize that we all know official elders who fail to meet the criteria seen in Titus. But scripture offers no escape clause regarding our responsibilities. It is our calling to submit to those over us in a way that we put goodness into their lives. We are to do good to them – not based on what we think they deserve or how much we “agree”. It’s worth noting here that elder mess-ups are not simply due to their personal deficiencies. They are products of a fallen world with fallen people and fallen church communities. We are together in this.

It has been said: The Christian army is the only army that shoots its wounded. Our leaders are in the front line. Then we wonder why they aren’t doing better – so we knock them down some more! Dear friend, that is not God’s calling on us – or towards anyone over us! Titus’ instructions for slaves towards masters apply here too: We do not “talk back to them”; we show them we can be trusted. … and so forth.

Here’s a challenge: This coming week, why not make a purposeful gesture of honor towards an elder in your life. Do good to that person. Remember, enhancing their wellbeing enhances everyone together – and ultimately God’s glory.

Amen!


Diane

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It is my conviction that the effectiveness of elders in God’s household is closely related to their view of salvation. If it is too narrow, they won’t be leading the people far. And chances are, they’ll be spending a lot of energy putting out fires started because the people aren’t sound in doctrine. No wonder Paul tells Titus to “stress these things”. But Paul did not have in mind our reductionist version of salvation. In this respect the two sermons I posted earlier are insightful. They broaden the meaning of salvation. Here is a brief synopsis:

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Reidhead points out that no one in scripture ever said “I was saved…”. When we use those words we imply that salvation is essentially a past event. That is inaccurate.

Salvation is:

1. Expansive in TIME.
Scripture expresses salvation in several Greek tenses – not only the past. Presently we continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We shall be saved on the final day … and our salvation nearer than when we believed. Salvation was planned before the world began, accomplished at Calvary, became effective through our repentance, is worked out daily, and we look forward to it.

2. Expansive in PROVISION.
“How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?” Heb. 2:3 That’s not merely a caution to unbelievers who neglect pardon from sins, but also to believers who neglect anything the Lord has provided for this life. On that final day will we hear God saying to us: “I made provision for you; but you went along creeping when you could have run. Here was health when you needed it … victory…. etc. Why didn’t you claim this? You have robbed the Lord of the glory he could have received because you neglected to take what he had for you.

This is sin - to neglect God’s provision – his “great and precious promises”. What if our kids neglect what we provide; they don’t eat the food and become unhealthy? Imagine the shame to the father who is responsible to care for them, who gives all the provisions of love, who knows what his children need. What if God’s people are unwilling to dress in the clothes he provides and they go around in rags? What dishonor to our heavenly Father!

Glyn Owen compares salvation to a gold mine filled with deposits of gold which need to be excavated. Salvation is a deposit given us by God, and it our life work is to excavate the deposits: to continue to work out the salvation and make our very own.

3. Expansive in RELATIONSHIP.
God’s great purpose isn’t simply to take us to heaven when we die. Through salvation the barrier between you and God is removed and you are brought into fellowship with God. We have experiential fellowship with God now. We have his Spirit, the paraclete who comes along side of us. We have Sonship. Salvation is a person - not a decision. Salvation is Christ. He didn’t die to send it; he died to become it.
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Reidhead believes we tend to convey the idea that God is only interested in a hell-insurance policy and having us fill a mansion in eternity; but if some want to go to the deeper life – well - that’s up to them. Interestingly, left wing Christianity has levied this very criticism against conservative evangelicalism: Getting “saved” is merely an escape hatch with little concern for others. As they see it, it is anti-humanity.

The two sermons I heard are refreshing on the topic of salvation. Yet they say little about the effects of salvation on human relationships. And isn’t that is the one area where humanity is most obviously at risk – and certainly our churches. It is also the area where our conservative Christianity has far too little to say.

So my friends, we have an exciting challenge before us! It is to dig deeper into scripture for more of its rich deposits – the gold nuggets which can equip us to integrate the glorious provisions of salvation into the area of relationships – and in that way be ministers of healing and see restoration to wholeness (soundness).

What has God given us for the task?

Diane

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"How gladly would I treat you like SONS." Jer 3:19

"….. that we might receive the adoption to SONSHIP". Gal. 4:5

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“I love you as a son!” These words fell on the ears of a little girl as she lay on her bed in a Christian hospital near her village in East Asia. She had just heard her father say that he valued her as much as he did a son. The little girl was deeply touched. Such honour for girls was unheard of in her Muslim culture.

Westerners might take offense at this father’s words - unless they understand the father’s way of thinking and also his cultural setting. Then they would know that he had bestowed a high honor on his daughter. This father was being radically countercultural – and for a good reason: He had recently put his faith in Christ, and now he was exhibiting new thinking - a new way of seeing his daughter and a new way of treating her. * We can appreciate this change when we see it through the eyes of his own culture.

Many biblical concepts come alive when we see them through the cultural perspective of the original readers – such as the words: “full rights of sons”. In the ancient Near East, the role of the son was important because inheritance was transferred from father to son. When the early Christian converts heard the news that in Christ they received “the full rights of sons” they would have understood that, regardless of their societal position (or gender), they were adopted by God into a highly favored position: They had become rightful heirs in the Father’s household. Such honor would have brought inexpressible joy to the countless who could never escape from their shame – be they poor and deformed, women and children, or outsiders and outcasts.

Biblical societies lived by a code of honor and shame. When Jesus presented God’s honor code (the beatitudes), his listeners would have understood it to mean that God honors the needy, thirsty, meek, merciful, pure, peacemakers, and so forth. These were the “blessed” ones. They were honored by God, even if shamed by society - even if rejected or persecuted for associating with Christ. Jesus reassured them saying, “Rejoice and be glad for great is your reward in heaven.” :12 In other words, they could accept their suffering joyfully by remembering that their full inheritance was yet to come.

Our society is not any more inclined to honor those who reflect the qualities in the beatitudes. Still, those are the very ones on whom God is eager to bestow honor - the full rights of “sonship”: “Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” In other words, theirs is “the full measure of the blessing of Christ.” Rom. 15:29

That is the joyful news of salvation!

Diane

* This story was told to me by a missionary nurse friend.

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Why could the “good” Samaritan in Jesus’ parable accomplish what the priest and Levite could not? It was, after all, such a basic task: giving remedial care to a wounded man. It’s not rocket science - or doctoral-level skill!

The Jewish lawyer to whom Jesus told the story provides us a clue: The Samaritan (one of those the Jews perceived as incapable of goodness) was not blinded by a system of values and priorities that beset the two religious leaders in the story – and, likewise, the man hearing Jesus tell the story.

Now we apply this teaching to the crisis in the Christian community in Acts 6:1-7:

Some needy members were being neglected in the daily distribution of charity: The widows among the Grecian Jews were not receiving their allotment of food. Yet the widows among the Hebraic Jews were. What was happening here? Why were the charity workers “walking past” the Grecian widows?

Here’s where commentaries offer helpful background*: We have here two groups of Jewish converts: 1) The Hebraic Jews in Palestine who spoke Aramaic, and 2) the immigrant Jews who spoke Greek. They descended from those who had immigrated to Palestine from the Diaspora. Apparently widespread tension had developed between these two groups of Christ-followers. In Acts 6 we see how this division played out in the charity work. But note: There is no indication of anyone being chastised. There may not have been any evil spite or deliberate favoritism. Nevertheless the Grecian Jews were complaining against the Hebraic Jews, and this was causing division in the church.

Most likely the Hebraic Jews had control of the program because they were the majority group; and now they were misusing their advantage. Isn’t that the way it often goes? Majority groups, the ones with more power, assume privileges for themselves at the expense of the minority groups – the ones with less power. No one may realize this is happening until the minority group rises up and complains – as we see in Acts 6.

Regardless of whether this inequity was deliberate or a mere oversight, the apostles dealt decisively with the crisis at hand and the problem was corrected. A team was quickly organized to handle the immediate need. It is significant that all seven chosen had Greek names, an indication that they all belonged to the minority group – the Grecians. What an expression of humility among those Jewish believers! What a touching concession to those who had been offended!

Here’s another exciting point: Consider who selected the seven. It was the “whole group”! Not the apostles. Here we see the Body of Christ functioning as a unit thinking together – and also according to New Covenant values: In Christ there is no favoritism, there is no Greek or Jew. Did you notice that one of the seven selected was actually a Gentile convert – not even a Jew!

See how this crisis was solved so smoothly and efficiently because the people were not derailed by the values and priorities which blinded the Levite and priest in Jesus’ parable – and which so often derail God’s people from the potential good they could do – the potential benefit to the church as a whole. And see the outworking of the apostles’ wise leadership.

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In Acts 6 we see hints of the teaching found in Titus on the selection of elders. The seven men were selected based on character quality, spiritual maturity, and capability (“full of the Spirit and wisdom”). We may assume that such qualities are not so vital for those doing “merely” the practical jobs. But in this early church there was no such distinction. That shouldn’t be surprising because practical jobs, as in “washing feet” is just as essential in the well being of God’s people. Let’s not forget the emphasis in Titus - both in doing GOOD and in character quality.

Doing good is not rocket science! It’s New Covenant living! It’s making use of the rich deposits of our salvation (to borrow from Glyn Owen’s sermon).


Diane

*Many comments here are from various commentaries.

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In his book, “THE BETTER COVENANT” Ron Bailey makes a startling assertion. He says,

“Bible words and ideas don’t really have ‘definitions’; they have histories. The best way to understand a Bible idea is not to start off with a dictionary, but to read the Bible slowly and repeatedly and see how that word or idea is used.”

What if we apply Bailey’s suggestion to the idea of “sound doctrine”? How would that look, for example, in the historical account in Acts 6? The word “doctrine” itself isn’t there, but the idea surely is. Here we see sound doctrine on the move – moving through a charity problem and up to the witness of Stephen’s angelic face. Studying this chapter is sure to stretch our assumptions about “healthy and wholesome” ( the definition of “sound”). Here we see sound doctrine in living reality.

In itself, the crisis over food distribution was a practical issue. But when we consider the underlying history, we would have to conclude that sound doctrine is what solved the problem so efficiently. [By sound, I mean wholesomeness in understanding and apprehending the God’s New Covenant.] And what results! Who would have thought that waiting on tables could have such wide-reaching implications? This church pulled together with remarkable maturity, and that freed the apostles to focus on their job. And oh, how many benefited –in a big way! We read:

“So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.”

Then the focus shifts to Stephen, “a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.” :8 Stephen’s influence was so far reaching that it drew a wide circle of enemies. “But they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by which he spoke.” That’s evidence of Stephen’s doctrinal soundness - which empowered him to stand firm. He was obviously well-fitted with the “spiritual armour of God” [Now there’s imagery of soundness in action!]

Acts 6 is an account of doctrine on the move in real history. If this Bible story was mere human imagination, then the theological points about Christ’s redemptive promises fall flat. Likewise, if those doctrinal points are extracted from the Biblical story – they fall flat too. That may help explain the ineffectiveness of evangelicalism – even among those who loudly proclaim Biblical inerrancy. When you extract doctrines from the grand story line, you merely reduce them down to fit your own miniscule paradigms. And then they have little weight.

Much of the bible is narrative, obviously for a reason: It supports the message of the good news. Stephen himself, in his defense against the Judaizers in Acts 7, mostly reiterated history. He conveyed it as God’s salvation story on the move in real human history. Stephen was demonstrating to his interrogators that he was not advancing a stray cult – but he was rooted in history - their own history. And they couldn’t argue against it. ….. ….. So they stoned him.

Oh… and by the way: Wouldn’t you say that, based on Acts 6-7, Stephen’s doctrinal soundness was quite remarkable for a man “merely” assigned to wait on tables, as distinct from those called to pray and preach?

In this primitive church the practical and the spiritual functioned together to make a powerful witness. Don't you think Paul had this kind of Christianity in mind when he was writing his epistle to Titus .... to the Ephesians .... the Philippians?


Diane


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I am still mesmerized by Ron Bailey’s suggestion that biblical ideas have histories more so than definitions. For me it’s a shift in the way I think exegetically. I am now eager to try it out. Please bear with me as I apply this “tool” on another Biblical idea – the idea of sin. I suspect that the word “sin” would benefit tremendously by assigning it a history. That is bound to help erase our caricatured assumptions. Furthermore, I’m convinced that the fuller we comprehend sin, the fuller we can comprehend God’s remedy for it. In other words, if our view of sin is wider, then so will be our view of salvation. And since salvation has a history, sin does too.

In Stephen’s speech in Acts 7 we see abundant reference to sin– an entire history of sin spanning centuries. Yet, oddly, the only time we see the word “sin” is in Stephen’s final words - which he says to God, not the people: “Lord do not hold this sin against them.” You know that these words have a history in themselves: the plea for mercy and forgiveness of sin. But for now, we take another direction. We are going to look at the history of sin in Israel’s background; and we’ll see how this history is still in motion among the people of God – and we ourselves are moving in that very history.

Stephen’s first reference to sin is the enslavement and mistreatment of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt. Stephen quickly shifts to the sin problems among the Hebrews themselves. Two slaves fight against each other. Moses seeks reconciliation, “Men YOU ARE BROTHERS, why do you want to hurt each other?” But the two men see Moses as the problem, not them. They don’t see him as a blessed peacemaker who is looking out for their well being. They don’t see him as one of them, but instead, a self-designated ruler trying to dominate them. They didn’t even thank him for his heroic defense in killing the Egyptian. They had no sense of his concern for them as a beloved family.

But then the fighting men didn’t seem to see each other as brothers in a family needing to pull together in love. At this point they have no sense of a self-identity as a special people with a glorious destiny. They are blind to that. In fact, that’s a blindness that has a very long history. Wherever God’s people lose a sense of their destiny and purpose as God’s chosen family, the people will self destruct. They strive against each other; they get bogged down in petty squabbles and shortsighted goals. And that becomes the focus, rather than their grand destiny in God. Along with this loss of vision comes the loss of their sense of need to care for one another, to submit to one another, and to accept servant leaders called by God to preserve them in their calling. And out of this arises no end of sin symptoms among the people.

By the time God’s prophets surfaced in ancient Israel, the people were so hardened that they saw no need for deliverance. They had no desire for God. We cannot underestimate the effects this sin alone had on their people and their descendents – on society as a whole, on families, marriages, children - on the people collectively and as individuals. The astronomical effects of this one sin - rejecting God - has a history that we must not overlook. Actually we can’t - even if we try! Yet if we forget that sin symptoms are all rooted in the one sin: rejecting God, then God’s solution for sin will have little value – and we’ll merely end up trying to put out fires all the time.

Stephen deliberately draws out this one aspect of Israel’s sin history: rejecting God by resisting his deliverers - Moses… the prophets…. culminating in their resistance against the ultimate deliverer: “the Righteous One” - who, in fact, was the very purpose for their God-given calling as a nation.

There is much more to draw from Stephen’s speech regarding sin as history. After all, his speech is a merely a nutshell summery of a detailed story in the Old Testament. But for now, I quote a provocative question by Richard Wumrbrant:

“Can I have a right opinion of a man, having in view only his breaking the law in one particular instance, and losing sight of his total personality?”

We could add: “….and losing sight of sin as a history.”

Cont’d…

Diane

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pilgrim777

Very interesting indeed, Diane.

When you get the chance read number #14.

#14 – It is reported that you have taught that “there
is no act or action that is (in and of itself) sin or
sinful.” Is that true? And if so, how do you define sin
and sinfulness?

http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/FAQS.pdf

Pilgrim

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Hello Pilgrim,

I browsed over the website document of FAQs by Jim Folwer. He has obviously been raising some provocative theological assertions. I see that he takes a dualistic approach to the human being: A person is indwelt and energized by either God or Satan. Man cannot generate sin in himself anymore than he can generate Christ-like qualities in himself. That's Fowler's presupposition which explains his #14 quote you posted.

I can agree that we might underestimate the role of the devil in sin. I myself tend to minimize references to the devil to prevent the temptation to blame him - leading to passive avoidance of personal accountability and responsibility for change.

I realize that's not what Fowler wishes to imply - it's just how people are. Didn't Adam himself blame the serpent?

Diane

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As I said, there is a lot of sin history right in Stephen’s speech. For example, Stephen mentions the jealousy in Joseph’s brothers. We could trace that sin problem to their father’s marriage history. Jacob had preferred Rachel over her older sister, Leah, thus defying the cultural order for marriage. Jacob, as was his nature, wanted it his own way. He then transferred this preferential attitude to his children. Now he favoured Rachel's eldest, Joseph, even to the point of designating him the future family head, symbolized in the special coat. It’s no wonder the brothers were jealous. Jacob had essentially denied acknowledging them as legitimate sons. (a point drawn from commentaries)

Did Jacob not remember his own history – how his father preferred his brother, Esau, and how his own devious scheming to steal the birthright had caused such grief? His very life was endangered by his brother’s wrath. Jacob became alienated from Esau for years and never did get to see his beloved mother again.

We may wonder how honestly Jacob shared his own sin history to his children. On the other hand, how well did he convey the glorious promise of their God-given destiny as revealed to Abraham. Surely the brothers would not have had such intense hostility towards Joseph if they had learned to trust God to fulfill his purposes for them - just as he did for their ancestors - through many mighty miracles. But then, was Joseph not rather cocky and foolish in pronouncing the dream to his brothers – knowing they were already feeling so intensely slighted?

Any conscientious parent today can see that in Jacob’s family history there is some rather bad stuff going on. Obviously some of the patriarchal fathers had remarkable weaknesses in their fathering abilities.

But alas – we know the outcome of the story - how God worked through the very sin problem itself. That’s part of sin’s history too! And it’s why Joseph would one day weep tears of affection and throw his arms around his brothers. He would say to them, “… BUT GOD sent me ahead of you to preserve you for a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.”
And Joseph would say:
“You intended it to harm me, but God intended it for good …” Gen. 50:20

…. Now here we are observing a different scenario: Stephen is about to lose his life at the hands of his own brothers in the family of Israel. And yet Stephen can say, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” Acts 7:60

Surely Stephen can say this for the same reason that Joseph could forgive his brothers - long before they ever admitted their wrongs. It was because both Joseph and Stephen had gained a sound grasp of the bigger picture of God’s redemptive purpose. They had come to know God’s ways. They could accept how God uses sin history itself for his own glory. And God’s glory is what mattered most to them …. and now to you and to me.

Is that not the same vision which, whether we live or die, enables us to forgive those who sin against us?

“…. Thine is the glory….”

Diane

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We continue on the topic of sin history drawn from Stephen’s speech in Acts 7 – notably his affirmation of the OT prophets concerning Israel’s sin history and also God’s place in it.

In this sense Stephen and the prophets are vastly different than the typical retellers of human history. As historians now realize, history is written by the victors. The victors wrote their own history as they saw themselves. They exalted their valiant victories, their mighty heroes, their wondrous accomplishments, but undermined details about their defeats or their less-than-stellar qualities. They often portrayed themselves as the good guys and the losers as the bad guys. We would say: They tended to deflate their own sin histories.

That cannot be said about the Bible people. Still, liberal theologians have been claiming that the Biblical narrative was not intended to be historical fact. It was instead a portrayal of how the ancient people viewed their history. It was their attempt to explain their identity. In other words, for us it is legend – but for them it was “truth”.

We might ask: Why would anyone create a self-identity from a history of rebellion against their God, filled with defeats and sin, and where no human was ever a hero by his own might? Conversely, the biblical writers obviously had no intention of “scratching backs” by creating a glowing history for their people. Instead, they lined their pages with foreshadowings of a deliverer from God – because, in actual fact, the people were hopelessly in bondage to sin.

There is another historical trend worth noting: Earthly kingdoms typically believe they have the gods (or God) on their side. And so, they would NOT be inclined to recall their history with the words that Stephen used in his speech:

“But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of heavenly bodies. Acts 7:42

“But God turned away…”

God gave his beloved chosen people over to their own worship preferences.

This statement by Stephen follows after his reference to the Israelites just after leaving Egypt. He said: “That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honour of what they hands had made.” :41

I will underscore the seriousness of this sin by quoting from “The Better Covenant” where Ron Bailey says:
------
“Moses was in the presence of God receiving the Ten Words on two tablets of stones. He is informed that the covenant people have already breached the covenant. As repulsive as it may seem this is the equivalent of one of the partners in a marriage being unfaithful during the actual wedding ceremony. It is almost unbelievable, but the record stands (…) This is betrayal of staggering measure.” (94)
-------

…..and so God turned away….

“But my people would not listen to me.
Israel would not submit to me.
So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
to follow their own devices.”
Ps. 81:11, 12

“God gave them [the Gentiles] over to the sinful desires of their hearts…” Rom. 1:24

You and I see plenty of symptoms today of this terrible judgment – God letting people, pagan or professing Christian, have their own way. But we may be less inclined to trace sin problems back this far – to God himself.

Should we?
Why or why not?

Diane


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"But my people would not listen to me.
Israel would not SUBMIT to me.
So I (!) gave them over to their stubborn hearts
to follow their own devices.” Ps. 81:11, 12

Why?!Why does God let this happen? Why! ….. Such despairing utterances often arise from those who have been knocked down by the tragic ravages of humanity’s sin. It is unlikely that a cold calculated response like: “It is God’s judgment,” or “It must be sin,” will restore hope or even a reason to hang on just one more day. When someone cries out “Why?” he (or she) may not be seeking a rational theological explanation as much as some semblance of order. Such utterances may be a cry of pain. The afflicted one needs to know that you care enough to enter into his suffering. He needs you as a calm assuring presence when everything is falling apart. In this way you can be a tangible expression of God’s love in the midst of chaos. This is likely far more helpful than cerebral theological explanations or engagement in blame casting.

When Jesus was asked who sinned - the blind man or his parents, Jesus avoided a theological debate. For generations Israel knew the consequences of sin: “The fruit of your womb will be cursed … The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind. At midday you will grope like a blind man in the dark”. Deut. 28:18, 28 For the blind man, his blindness may very well have been an outcome of Israel’s long sin history – but for Jesus it was not a blame issue; it was a platform for God’s glory. Jesus had come to heal the blind, and also to offer a new kind of sight – not merely physical, but spiritual.

Still, we cannot deny God’s judgments on sin. There is plenty of evidence in our own society. We all experience the painful effects of God letting rebellious humanity “follow their own devices”, God turning rebellious humanity over to “the desires of their sinful hearts”. Rom. 1: 24 The Psalmist saw this as true for Israel and Paul saw this as true for the Gentiles. And we see it as still true today. Whether Jew or Gentile, professing Christian or not, when people don’t want God, he gives them over to their own desires. The outcomes are far reaching. Someone once said that the worst form of judgment is for God to let us have our own way. When people reject God, and God lets them have their way, they set out for themselves a path that leads to self- destruction.

When a society is alienated from God, they lose a true knowledge of love, and so they lack the inward capacity to love one another. (1 Jn.) In their self pursuits, the Great Commandment is abandoned. The people fail to care for each other sufficiently – or even desire to.

Did you notice the word “SUBMIT” in the Psalm 81 passage? You can see that we did not stray from the theme of submission – even as we look at divine judgment. Whenever the desire for self-rule replaces the desire to submit to God, there is an erosion of submission on all levels. We see it in our own society: There is a lack of submission to human authority and also to one another. There is an unwillingness (or inability) to yield to others in order to benefit them. That is evident in all contexts of relationship – in marriages, families, institutions, and also the church. The Great Commandment is eroding away from our collective consciousness. Many become victims of this sin.

This is at the root of one of our society’s most devastating, yet under-acknowledged forms of suffering. A history of deficiencies in love has eroded our mental health – evidenced in a host of disorders, destructive behaviours, and relational breakdowns. In both America and Canada reports reveal that 21% of youth have a diagnosable mental disorder, and only a fraction receive treatment. Adult statistics are rising too. Here scripture still holds true: Sinful habits get passed to the next generations; and they flourish where ungodly ways of thinking and doing predominate in society.

Our problem is surely not environmental toxins (as was suggested to me recently) but a spiritual blindness come through divine judgment. Yet if divine judgment still holds true, so also can God’s mercy triumph over judgment. Surely blindness is still the very platform for God’s glory; and our Lord will yet come and give sight to the blind. Let us cling to the promised hope – and pray that God's love may empower us to minister this hope through our care – our godly submission to one another.

Diane

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One of the many biblical descriptions of authentic human love – as in godly submission:

“But the wisdom from above is first of all pure.
It is also peace loving,
gentle at all times,
and WILLING TO YIELD TO OTHERS.

It is full of mercy and good deeds.
It shows no favoritism and is always sincere.”

James 3: 1 NLT

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In scripture we see how whenever God’s people drift from the Lord they typically deny it. They think they are fine and do not need of a thing. Yet they are blind to the fact that, in actually, they are under God’s judgment and alienated from his love. Their hardened consciences make them poor diagnosticians: They see plenty of specks in other eyes, but not the log in their own. We see how Jesus deploys various tactics to penetrate that hardness - like his shocking parable in which one of the worst “sinners” of their day, the abominable Samaritan, demonstrates more capacity to love than God’s own people.

John’s epistles are effective for penetrating the calluses of hearts today – hearts that lose their capacity for love, but don’t know it. John writes: “Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person." 1 Jn. 2:4 And what command does John appeal to? It is the great commandment: to love. John goes as far as saying: “Anyone who claims to be in the light but HATES a brother or sister is still in the darkness.” 2:9

The Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary sheds light on this word “hates”. I quote:

______________
“How does John understand hate? His answer lies primarily in what one does. Hate is the absence of the deeds of love. To walk in the light is to love one’s brother, and God’s love will express itself in concrete actions. If these are missing, it is not because love can be neutral or can exist unexpressed. Love unexpressed is not love at all. When it is absent, hate is present.

In this instance hate is a failure to deny oneself, the unwillingness to lay down one’s life for a brother. One considers one’s own plight first, disregards the robbed and afflicted, despises the little ones, withholds the cup of cold water from the thirsty, and makes no effort to welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, or help the sick. Whenever a brother has need and one does not help him, then one has, in fact, hated his brother. …. ‘Brother’ probably refers to the one inside the community of faith. …. If believers cannot love their fellow believers, it is doubtful that they can truly love their neighbors.” (Pg 1088)
_____________

In view of the crisis of our own culture – the crisis of mental health, which I referred to in earlier posts, much more can be added here – about the failure to love in our own society – including the churched folk. For now, I include a quote which drives home the absolute necessity of love.

“Man cannot live without love. He remains a being that is incomprehensible to himself, his life is senseless if love is not revealed to him, if he does not encounter love, if he does not experience it and make it his own, if he does not intimately participate in it.” Karol Józef Wojtyła

Jesus said: “Just as the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; remain in my love.” Jn. 15:9

Why is this command so vital?

Diane

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In my unorganized meandering through the topic of Godly submission, I keep finding myself touching on different themes. Actually, it’s opening my eyes to an exciting truth. I’m seeing how the Bible, in all its diverse themes, effectively encompasses an amazing unity. The Bible keeps on pointing us back to the great commandment – and ultimately to our first Love, Jesus Christ. I'm convinced that any bible discussion should do likewise. Even the biblical theme of divine judgment points us there, and thus, to our theme of godly submission. John’s epistle makes that connection in this verse:

“Whoever HATES his brother is in the darkness, and walks around in the darkness. He does not know where he is going, because the darkness has BLINDED him.” 1Jo 2:11

Lovelessness is related to spiritual blindness. As we know, spiritual blindness is an effect of divine judgment: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they can neither see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, nor turn – and I would heal them.” John 12:40 quoting Is. 6:10

Now we will trace Bible references about blindness and see how they point to divine mercy – the only way to restore obedience.

BLINDNESS AS DIVINE JUDGMENT:
Then the Lord said to him, "Who gives speech to mortals? Who makes them mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Ex 4:11 (NRSV)

\t\t“The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind.” Deut 28:28

“They do not know nor understand; For HE HAS SHUT THEIR EYES, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. .” Isa 44:18 (NKJV)

“May their eyes be darkened so that they do not see” Rom 11:10 quoting Ps 69:22

“But if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” Mat 6:23

"Blind fools! … You have neglected the more important matters of law – justice, mercy, and faithfulness. …. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! … Blind Pharisee!..." Mat 23:17, 23 24, 26

“But their minds were closed. For to this very day, the same veil remains when they hear the old covenant read. It has not been removed BECAUSE ONLY IN CHRIST is it taken away.” 2Co 3:14 (…) “..the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God. 2Co 4:4 (comments later)

“They are darkened in their understanding, being alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.” Eph 4:18

“But the one who HATES his fellow Christian is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 2 1Jo 2:11

SIGHT RESTORED ONLY IN CHRIST

“At that time the deaf will be able to hear words read from a scroll, and the eyes of the blind will be able to see through deep darkness.” Isa 29:18

“Then the eyes of those who have sight will not be closed, and the ears of those who have hearing will listen.” Isa 32:3

Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment so that those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind." (…. ) Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.” Joh 9:39, 41

“… because you say, “I am rich and have acquired great wealth, and need nothing,” but do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked…” Rev 3:17

Note: This defective spiritual condition among the Laodicean believers was evidenced in their DEEDS. Their deeds were neither hot nor cold. Their deeds didn’t do any good. The people were lacking in goodness, but they didn’t realize it because they were blind; they thought they were doing quite fine. Good deeds, as we saw earlier in Titus, are tangible expressions of love towards one another – forms of genuine care for the well being of one another. And so the Christians in Laodicea had put the church and also God’s honour at serious risk. What remedy does God offer them for this problem? (see Rev. 3:20)

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David Wilkerson’s sermon, “A Broken Down City Without Walls” is fitting here. Wilkerson addresses the symptoms of troubles in our homes today - the bitterness, jealousies, unkind words, suspicions against each other, fighting; things are spinning out of control; the marriage is in trouble. This is Troubled City! The walls have come down and the enemy comes in. The devil has gotten into this marriage.

Yet, Wilkerson cautions against the tendency to blame the devil. After all, he notes, “The enemy cannot take control of your family when the walls are up. But when relationships are in trouble, everybody wants to blame somebody. And they blame the devil. They say, ‘The devil’s trying to destroy the home.’” Wilkerson asks: “Who let him in?!” Then he cautions, “In most cases your broken condition is not the fault of the devil.”

Wilkerson draws on the question in Ps. 80:12, “Why hast thou [GOD] broken their hedges, so [the devil] wastes it?” In Isaiah 5:1-7 the vineyard which God had tenderly nurtured produces bad fruit, and God says: “I will take away its hedge.” Just like it was for straying Israel, our present relationship distresses are directly linked to divine judgment. Wilkerson goes on, “You can argue that God is not so severe under grace; God doesn’t do that since the cross. But not so …. with Ananias and Saphirra… God says, “If you’re not going to act according to my word, you are going to face my justice. …’”

I accept what Wilkerson says. But as he notes, that doesn’t compute with our general way of thinking, and it is typically deemed contrary to God’s love. What a tragedy! For apart from divine judgment, divine mercy has little relevance. If we diminish judgment, we diminish the value of God’s greatest act of love – through Christ’s salvation. God is diminished. And therefore hope is diminished.

This is tragic: Without Christ salvation, we lose the marvelous gifts that accompany it – the gifts that can enable us to restore our relationships. We are then left passively paralyzed in our bondages, assuming we are victims of the devil and of our present circumstances.

And so we merely lower our own standards and expectations. Wilkerson cautions: “If the marriage is going bad, the most dangerous thing to say is: ‘Every marriage has its problems; it’s a part of marriage…’ But it’s a lie to say that this is a normal Christian marriage. It’s NOT Christ-like to pour out venom on one another! …. Our habits, like murmuring and complaining, will have control of us.

Wilkerson teaches that the walls come down, not because of occasional stumbles, but because of addiction to sin and the insistence on living a lie about it - as in Romans 2: “… if you know his will and approve of what is superior …… do you dishonor God by breaking the law? (:18-23) In other words, you view yourself as guide to the blind, you teach what is right but you do not live it. You call yourself Christian, but don’t take God’s word seriously.

This hits close to home: I see this as a plight among us who are serious Christians. We see ourselves through our ideals, yet we can’t see our failure to uphold them. Wilkerson reminds us that God provides ample provision for restoration, but we may not see our own need for it. God may have dealt with us year after year, and done everything he can to bring us to repentance. Wilkerson notes how in his own church over the years there has been much preaching on mercy, grace, and forgiveness. Yet some never respond. God can’t keep on protecting that double life. He can’t keep on protecting a lie.

When God removes the wall, the enemy invades. God’s aim is to produce a righteous result - a heart that takes God’s word seriously. This surely is divine love! “So man will be brought low, and mankind humbled. But the Lord almighty will be exalted by his justice, and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.” Is 5: 15

Through our brokenness we self-empty our pride and the need to be right; and God will again build up the wall. We plead with God to touch us with his love, and take back control of our mind…. Lord, it’s not my husband…. It’s me! I want you Lord, more than healing.

May God hear our prayers: “Return to us O God, Almighty! …. Revive us, and we will call on your name. Restore us, O Lord God almighty, make your face shine up on us that we may be saved.” Psalm 80:18-19

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Have you ever considered God’s precious believers to be an endangered species? In view of the many forces we see snuffing out the presence of vibrant faith, we could think that way. We now realize that we cannot take the faith for granted. It has been said: “The Church is one generation away from extinction”.

I got thinking about that recently when I interviewed an 85 y.o. man about his hobby of rescuing snapping turtles from the road. These reptiles themselves are becoming endangered, and are now declared a protected species. They are threatened by the decline in hospitable habitats and also the prevalence of predators which eat their eggs and their young. Also, they are prone to getting run over by traffic. Females seek sandy places to lay eggs, and so roadsides attract them – to their detriment.

The elderly man’s concern for turtles touched me. But more! As I chatted with him, I quickly discovered something else about him – something surprisingly wonderful: He is no raving environmentalist - he is a Christian who dearly loves the Lord. His testimony quickly became our focus of conversation. With tears, he shared how God had rescued him from the certain destruction of alcoholism. He shared about God’s goodness. For this man, God’s marvelous love was new every day. It was an inexpressible joy.

He shared how he often finds himself on his knees, and with tears he cries out in praise and thanksgiving for God’s goodness to him. Even in our conversation he asked several times, “Why is God so good to me? I don’t understand it.” With absolute conviction he added: “I know God will always be faithful to me. He can’t not be faithful! Not with all that he has done for me.”

This man has many reasons to be sad and lonely. He still misses his dear wife, deceased five years ago. Few people come by anymore. They are all busy in their own lives, he notes. Yet God brings family members and others in his times of need. He finds the spiritual dryness in church hard to take, so he rarely attends. But God is his companion now - and he's content.

He frequently goes down town to the coffee shops and shares his joy in the Lord. They listen. They like him, because they see so much love in him. He also helps people in need, and even lends out his truck. In spite of his meager income he freely gives where he sees need. He said, “When I go to the bank, I see that God always keeps my account balanced. I can’t out-give God.”

For him, God’s goodness is also present on his turtle rescuing missions - even on those days he doesn’t see any turtles. One day he saw a bluebird – and that’s a rare sighting around here!

That got me thinking: In my mission to find a story for the paper, that day I had spotted a “bluebird”. To discovering such a beautiful believer is a rare “sighting”.

But that day, I also realized just how much we need these kinds of Christians in our lives. I needed him to remind me what real faith looks like. He gave me an aspiration. I want to be like that and I know I’m not. Also, he showed me what it means to honour one another. He told me how encouraging it was to have someone interested in hearing his testimony. I had honoured him.

And on a practical note: I came to see that this man needs care too. In his growing fragility, he needs others. I praise God for bringing me into such a privilege and opportunity - to minister to a dear neighbor – quit literally – walking distance away!


"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love.
Honor one another above yourselves." Romans 12:10

Diane


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pilgrim777

Thank you, Diane.

The "Endangered Turtles/Endangered People", really touched my heart.

Pilgrim

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Thank you Pilgrim,

Yes, a person’s faith growth has enormous implications, not only personally, but for an untold number of others too. This man benefited from loving believers in his past – those who who walked in the Spirit and were equipped to pray miracles into his life. It’s the ripple effect.

I got thinking: We’d do well to treat each other in the “household of faith” as an endangered species. In a sense God’s people, whether strong or weak in faith, are like the snapping turtles: They are vulnerable to getting “run over” – and even becoming extinct. Imagine if God’s people cared for one another like this man cared for turtles’ safety and preservation.

We mustn't take the preservation of the faith for granted. Ancient Israel discovered that to be true the hard way – as seen in this lament:

“The Lord’s anointed, our very life breath,
was caught in their traps.
We thought that under His shadow
we would live among the nations.” Lamentations 4:20


Diane

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I’ve been meditating in Lamentations. Here it’s impossible to miss the obvious: Divine judgment is indisputably behind the troubles. You see that in verse after verse: “”The Lord has brought her grief… the Lord has rejected…. The Lord determined to tear down the wall around the Daughter of Zion (Do you remember Wilkerson’s sermon about the city without walls?) The reason for judgment is also repeated, over and over: resistant sin. Israel had become more hard-hearted than animals.

“Even jackals offer their breasts to nurse their young,
but my people have become heartless like ostriches in the desert.” Lam. 4:3

I continue to be convinced that accepting God’s judgment is a prerequisite for accepting God’s mercy. You see that in Lamentations. Jeremiah turns his face towards God – and pleads for mercy: “Look, O Lord, on my affliction...” 1:9 and so forth. Then he writes one of the most beautiful expressions of God’s mercy seen in all of scripture:

“Because of the Lord’s great love,
we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness….
Though he brings grief,
he will show compassion.
For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to the children of men.” See Lam. 3:22-32

We often hear how Jesus changed the tide in the NT. After all, he did teach that the falling tower of Siloam and also the blindness of a man were not gages of anyone’s sinfulness; and God sends rain on the good and bad alike. (Matt. 5:43) But I don’t believe Jesus was diminishing the power of divine judgment. Not at all! He was elevating the power of mercy. He was teaching that a personal misfortune or bad life choice is not a gage by which we assess one’s worthiness of God’s love, and thus our love towards them. Jesus taught instead: … Unless YOU repent….. this [blindness] is for God’s glory …... Love your enemies.

We do want to avoid labeling others’ predicaments as God’s judgment – as if they deserve it (and we don’t!). That can be as heartless as an ostrich in the desert who abandons her offspring. That can be the epitome of UN-submissiveness - because it is devoid of mercy and compassion.

In scripture divine judgment typically has a broad-sweeping effect – and perhaps that’s the better way to view it. Consider Lam. 5:7 “Our fathers sinned and are no more, and we bear the punishment.” Isn’t that still true? People are suffering the consequences of judgment, directly or indirectly. Poor choices made in earlier generations or by others in families and nations can plunge others into a sinful life pattern. But regardless, when the effects of sin become painful enough, sinners are most open to confession and repentance.

“Let us examine our ways and test them,
And let us return to the Lord.” Lam. 3:40

This brings us full circle, back to the great commandment. When we have come to know God’s grace and love towards ourselves, when we know God’s forgiveness for our own rebellion against God, then we are also eager to extend it to others – just like the elderly gentleman I spoke about earlier… and just like the woman who poured perfume on Jesus’ head. He said:

“Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” Lk. 7:47


Diane

R
roadsign

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”
John 12:40 - John quoting Isaiah 6:10

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear, to this very day.
Romans 11: 8 – Paul quoting Deut. 29:4; Isaiah 29:10

Whom did God blind? For both John and Paul these were the one who had been given it all – from God himself: their ancestors, Israel. These were the ones who, in spite of having it all, didn’t want God, but instead wanted a form of godliness - which in truth was utterly powerless. They were sure they were right and righteous. And they did try. These were the ones who became obsessed over “gnats” but were oblivious to the weightier matters of the law. Paul refers to these people, his own heritage, in 2 Cor. 2. “Their minds were made dull”. They were covered with a veil so that they could not see the glory of the Lord.

Over and over, Paul draws his theological claims directly from the Old Testament history, law, and prophets. The record is preserved in Holy Scripture, and now helps us follow his train of thought.

Paul’s God is the same God who drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden when they chose to reject God – desiring instead to be “as god”, their own “god”. This was same God who blocked them from reentering the garden so that they would no longer see God…. not in their sinful condition.

As was true for that first couple and for ancient Israel, the great and ultimate sin is rejecting God –and the judgment is consistent: In this condition, humanity, by necessity, is barred from true intimacy and knowledge of God. This truth is essential in order to understand God’s redemptive provision through the Spirit. I see this as the key message strewn across the entire Bible – with consistent repetition. An ability to accept this truth is rooted in a right understanding of God.

Paul describes God with great clarity in his epistles: “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the ONLY God” 1 Tim. 1:17 I emphasize the word “only” to remind us that Paul lived in a polytheistic culture – where it was assumed there were many gods. Paul was careful to make the distinction: there is only ONE true God. This is the God to fear, and the God who can send sinners to hell. He is the God who turns rebellious people over to their desire – so that in their sin, they become the devil’s playing field – the “world” – the domain of darkened humanity – open to his deceptions, yet unaware because they are blind, dulled, and hardened by God himself. And in this condition they are on a path to self-destruction – with only one door of hope. Praise God!

Paul present Christ as the very embodiment of God: “Christ is the head over every power and authority” Col. 2: 9 In other words, there is no rival deity (as is common in polytheism).

This is the God who by his power seated Christ “above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, NOT ONLY IN THE PRESENT AGE, but also the age to come.” Eph. 1:21
This is the God who blinds and hardens the human heart – so that there is no way back to him – other than by his redemptive provision in Christ.

Cont’d….

Diane

R
roadsign

By now you may suspect an ulterior motive going on. That’s right. I am challenging a dualistic form of Christianity that in essence treats God and Satan as equal and opposing deities. I realize this is not done directly or even consciously - but indirectly it may be - through use of language, emphases, practices, and so forth. I challenge this somewhat veiled theology. Really, it’s not new in historical Christianity.

I sense in some circles a propensity to attribute divine-like qualities to the devil. But when we elevate the devil too much, God ultimately gets demoted. It is an insidious leveling effect. In reducing God and his sovereign power and authority, sinners become deprived of God’s ultimate healing “remedy” for their besetting problems – or rather, their true spiritual ailment. The gifts of salvation are de-emphasized. People are seen more as victims of the devil. And so their hope drifts towards rituals like deliverance, magic-like chants against the devil, or even the “weapon” of praise and worship. Now I don’t deny the need for deliverance! In most contexts, more emphasis should be placed on this ministry. I just question its use at the expense of underlying repentance and a change of spiritual condition through Christ. The focus is more on extricating something than on receiving something. It’s more about getting rid of the bad than taking on the good. But apart from that deeper inner change through the putting on of Christ, deliverance isn’t going to last long. (I’ve been told so by deliverance ministries.)

CS Lewis said:

“There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is the disbelief in their existence. The other is to believe and feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They [the devils] are equally pleased by both errors and hail the materialist or the magician with the same delight”. from Screwtape Letters

In the more liberal leanings, I see this materialist view towards the devil: He doesn’t exist; and so the devil gets a free run without being noticed. For here I address the problem of over-exalting the devil in the face of troubles. God becomes marginalized, most notably his judgments and mercy, while the spotlight shifts over to Satan who becomes, in the conscience, the object of worship – the one feared.

Interestingly, the prime, principle verse used to support the devil’s lofty position and power is 1 Cor. 4:4. You hear it over and over again: Satan is “the god of this age”. The problem I see with using this verse so instinctively and so exclusively is that there is no explicit reference here to Satan at all. The Greek word interpreted as Satan is o theos, the normal word for God. Furthermore, 2 Cor. 4:4 is specifically referring to the blinding of spiritual sight which scripture repetitively presents as God’s doing. If Paul was changing gears in this particular instance, why did he not use a clearer word for Satan? He had many from which to choose. In view of the polytheistic culture of his day, why was he not more careful to avoid any possible suggestion that Satan is another deity?

Next time you hear the expression “god of this age” used for Satan – note carefully how closely it relates to Paul’s contextual flow of theology in 2 Corinthians (and also Romans). Chances are “god of this age” is simply the default label drawn from the registry of names designated for Satan (although this reference is NOT included in most of the Bible dictionaries I checked – esp the more indepth ones!).

Another question: In the phrase “god of this age (this world KJV)” why didn’t Paul use the usual Greek word for “world” [cosmos] which is often used to express the composite domain of sinful humankind? Why did Paul instead use the word for “age” [aion], meaning, time span - a word usually used to mean “ever” or “forever”? The word, aion, certainly leaves room for the possibility that God is the subject here – as the God of this present span of time.

We can surely all accept that our God is the God of this present time period, this age (as declared in Eph. 1: 9 and other verses) God is the King of the ages: “ the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.” 1 Tim. 1:17…. even now while Satan is the prince of this world [kosmos] - the evil power over the domain of sin:

“ … in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world [kosmos] and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.” Eph. 2:2

…cont’d

Second part coming….

R
roadsign

More thoughts…

Is it not peculiar that in 2 Cor. 4:4 Paul would label Satan with the very word he normally uses for God: [o theos]? Could he not possibly have meant just what he wrote: God, literally? Unfortunately for us the Greek text does not use capital letters for God anywhere, so it is only in the translation that the big “G” and small “g” become differentiated. We must rely on context – which I am attempting to consider here.

Regardless, the small “g” god in 2 Cor. 4:4 is here to stay in Christendom and is traditionally interpreted to mean Satan. Various translations emphasize that for us: The NLT blatantly adds in the word “Satan”. The Message is especially “helpful” in its creative interpretation: “All they have eyes for is the fashionable god of darkness.” To make this interpretation seem more assuredly correct, some translations use the word “world” instead of “age”. “World” readily suggests the dark domain of sin.

If I were a translator, I could help too – like this: “And for this reason Satan will send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie…” 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Did you catch it? It almost seems right, doesn’t it? But it’s not!

Now, as I said, this is largely my opinion based on my own biblical study. But the more I delve into 2 Cor. 4:4 in light of so many other biblical passages, the more I suspect that neither Paul nor his readers were thinking of the devil in this verse. Only reluctantly do I submit to the traditional orthodox view of o theos being the devil – simply because that is the assumed use.

Still, overall I think we should go easy on the use of the 2 Cor. 4:4 as the prime label for Satan – because, after all, it is the only reference for which Satan is referred to in terms of deity – a god. We have plenty of other labels for Satan. And we DO want to acknowledge God’s particular function in divine judgment – and not attribute it to the devil! (see two posts back)

I believe that we should strive against any subtle treatment of Satan as deity, or nearly so. Satan is not a deity. He is a created being. He is a ferocious rival power against God, but not an equal rival by a long stretch. Yet, neither is he merely a dead contrived god – as the pagan gods. After all, Satan has tremendous power and authority, certainly where sin abounds - in this darkened world [kosmos].

Also we would do well to acknowledge Christ’s place seated far above even the “the present age”. Eph. 1:21 God put Christ there. So God must be there himself! Let us remember that our great God and Saviour is not subservient to Satan anywhere in the created order. God is on the throne!

I have presented this argument merely as the place where I am at the moment. I am not one to change the stream of orthodox Christianity on this matter. However, for me the exegesis paper on 2 Cor. 4:4 in the attached link presents a far more credible, scholarly, and thoughtful treatment on the God-view than any I have ever found on the Satan-view argument. Actually, I discovered this paper only recently, after doing my own study, and it suggests to me that I am not off track. He does a far more biblically comprehensive study than I have done. I recommend it – as a means to get you thinking.

You may not wish to consider the possibility that o theos in 2 Cor. 4:4 is God, but I believe it is fair to at least give the argument in this paper some careful thought and see why you might disagree. Also, the ultimate test of this teaching’s soundness will become evident in practice: Might this view weaken or strengthen the holy character of God and thus the message of his gospel news …. and in that way, our calling to Christian submission. I say the latter. Do you?


http://www.rctr.org/journal/8.pdf
2 Corinthians 4:4: A Case for Yahweh as the ‘God of this Age.’
Donald E. Hartley, Ph.D.
The 57th Annual Meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society


….. Get yourself a cup of coffee first! …. Happy adventure!

Diane

P
pilgrim777

It is an interesting study, Diane.

Maybe Paul used that language because he observed how people either worship the true God or the Devil. We have been made receptive creatures and we derive from one spiritual source or another. (There are only two).

Jesus said if you are not with me you are against me. There are only really two forces in this world. Good and Evil, God and Satan. There is not a third choice.

Also, as born-again Christians we are now deriving our nature and character from Jesus Christ as we abide in Him. Formerly, we derived our nature and character from the Devil.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

People don't like to admit to that. It doesn't sound dignified. Most people would like to think that when they weren't saved that they had no part of Satan and he had no part of them, they were just walking around in their fallen human nature.

The truth is that when we abide in "self" we are abiding in Satan who masks himself in so many different ways. This is what Christians don't realize and why so many get tripped up by the Enemy. Thinking they are just enjoying their flesh for a brief moment, they are actually giving place to the "god of this world". And like someone putting a small wedge into a large door, once you put a small wedge in the crack of the door, you can then fit bigger and bigger wedges in until you have the door completely open. That is the insidious of sin (abiding in Satan). Yet, Satan has the Church world fooled because we see stories all the time where people evidently thought they weren't hurting anyone with their secret sin and they could "control" it and stop it whenever they wanted to. That too is a lie.

As I said before, there are only two choices in this world. Good and evil, blessing and cursing, life and death, God and Satan. And man is the prize. We are derivative creatures and we will seek to fill ourselves with something or someone. Because Satan exists on the spiritual plane he is usually many steps ahead of man and knows that man is looking to fill himself with something. Man is looking to give himself to something. Man is looking to believe in something. Man does not and cannot exist just within himself. God did not make us that way. Man seeks to worship something and draw his "life" from something outside of him and that something may just end up being himself - the lie and deception is that he thinks it is himself when in fact he is worshipping Satan. Satan knows man oh too well and has a thousand things he could give man that mask Satan's identity.

Did not the "god of this world" offer kingdoms to the Lord Jesus if He would bow down and worship him?

Our only hope is Christ. We cannot dual with Satan head on. We must put on Christ, and walk in His ways.

Also, there is no true dualism or yin and yang. Satan is not an equal and opposite force to God. Satan is a created being and not a self-generative being. He creates nothing. Rather he takes everything that God does/created and perverts and twists it.

Eastern philosophies, such as the yin/yang dualism) posits equal and balanced powers of good and evil, positive and negative, neither of which can ever gain the ascendancy. The Apostle John quite clearly understood the ultimate and absolute sovereignty of God in Christ, and that the Evil One was created by, derived from, and subordinate to God.

We know that God and Satan are not equal and opposite forces as Jesus Christ overcame the Evil one and we are commanded to overcome him, too.

Pilgrim

P
pilgrim777

Diane,

If you would permit me to post this (that explains my previous post). In my opinion, the entire article is quite worthy of a little more of your time (when you get the chance).

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/understandman.html

Here is a short blurb.

The final analogy to be considered is that of the relationship of husband and wife. Romans 7:1-6 seems to picture the Christian as a woman who was spiritually married to a satanic husband, but was released from that marriage by death, in order to be joined to Christ as spiritual husband. More explicitly, Paul wrote to the Ephesians about the relationship of husband and wife (Eph. 5:22-33), and explained that he was “speaking with reference to Christ and the church” (Eph. 5:32). It has traditionally been recognized that the woman is the receiver in the marriage relationship, and the husband has the responsibility to provide loving leadership. Despite any social and cultural gender adjustments, the fact cannot be avoided that the woman is designed for sexual receptivity. The spiritual implication is that all human beings, male and female, are like wives joined to a spiritual husband. We are all designed for spiritual receptivity. The oneness of the marital union wherein “the two become one” (Gen. 2:24; Eph. 5:31) is not a merged, absorbed, or monistic oneness, but is a relational oneness that only functions properly when the Trinitarian relationalism of God’s love is operative in the marriage union. Likewise, the union of Christ and the Christian, when we are wed to Christ and “joined to the Lord in one spirit with Him” (I Cor. 6:17), is not a union of absorption, but a relational oneness wherein the Christian is to remain receptive to Christ in all things.

These analogies are all illustrative of man’s spiritual receptivity, of how man functions by derivation from a spiritual source. When God created Adam, He encouraged him to receive, to “eat freely” (Gen. 2:16) of the “tree of life” (Gen. 2:9), in order to derive the outworking of the divinely inbreathed (Gen. 2:7) life of God in man. The serpent, representing Satan (Rev. 12:9; 20:2), the “father of lies” (Jn. 8:44), lied to the original man, telling him that if he were to eat of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:9,17) which God had forbidden, he would “be like God” (Gen. 3:5). It was a lie, for only God can be autonomous and independent, Self-empowering and Self-generating His activity out of His own Self-sufficiency. What God is, man cannot be. What God does, man cannot do. Man, the human creature, did not have the inherent resource to be independent and self-generative, for the human functions only by dependency and receptivity. The diabolic lie of man’s capability of being an “independent self”, the lie of intrinsic idiopathic human generation, presented Adam, the representative man for humanity, with the choice of functioning as God intended by receptivity from God, or attempting to function in the self-effort of self-sufficiency. The human creature, being a choosing creature with “freedom of choice,” was the only creature that could choose to refuse to function as God intended, by rejecting the presence of God’s life within. But by his rejection, man did not, for he could not, become an autonomous and self-generative being. Fallen man is unaware that he is still deriving what he does from a spiritual source, “the prince of the power of the air, who is working in the sons of disobedience” (Eph. 2:2), because “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving” (II Cor. 4:4). Generation after generation of mankind has touted their innate and intrinsic abilities in the humanistic thesis that they can function independently, as only God can function. Man has pompously assumed that he was his own center of reference, that he can be the cause of his own effects, that he has unlimited potential to achieve whatever he can conceive.

The Christian premise that man derives all that he does from a spirit source beyond himself is not only antithetical to all humanistic thought, but many in the context of Christian religion reject it also. Much of religion emphasizes the performance of “works” for spiritual advancement. Not understanding that God’s prime function is activity, while man’s prime function is receptivity, they are constantly advocating increased activity for their adherents. The church leaders are repeatedly harping on “getting involved,” on being “committed and dedicated” to churchy busyness that is seldom God’s business. Church attendance, tithing, serving on committees – the incessant calls to “go, go, go, and do, do, do for Jesus” – are never-ending religious mantras. The popular religion of performance cannot accommodate the activity of God’s grace received by faith.

Some religious teaching can recognize the need to repudiate humanistic thought and the idea that man can be an independent, self-originative or self-generative creature. But they often revert to an equally repugnant idea, that of “contributive man,” and utter such abominable statements as, “God helps those who help themselves,” and “Do your best, and God will do the rest,” often thinking that these are Biblical statements or concepts. If the satanic deceiver cannot get man to believe that he causes his own activity, he will at least attempt to get man to believe that he can contribute to activity that pleases God.

Popular evangelical teaching often bristles at the idea that man derives his functional expression from a spiritual source in either God or Satan. Evangelicalism gives lip-service to man’s inability to generate his own righteousness, for Paul writes clearly, “if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21), but in practice they advocate an unending litany of righteousness by performance of ritual, moral conformity, church involvement, etc. It is man’s derivation of unrighteousness and sin from Satan that evangelical humanism most strenuously objects to. Invariably they argue that this diminishes man’s responsibility, for they are so concerned with man having to make the choices to act properly. Many evangelicals, especially those who espouse Reformed theology, can accept a divine determinism, but they are afraid that man’s derivation from the Evil One creates a diabolic determinism that is akin to the old Flip Wilson comedy routine, “the Devil made me do it!” As indicated earlier, spiritual derivation does not imply any form of determinism, for man still has the response-ability and responsible accountability to make choices of receptivity to derive from one spiritual source or the other.

The either/or of spiritual character derivation is very clear in the scriptures. Righteousness is derived ek theos, “out of God” by faith (Phil. 3:9). Goodness is derived ek theos, “out of God” (III John 11) by one who has “seen God.” On the other hand, sin is derived ek diabolos, “out of the devil” (I John 3:8). Cain’s murder of his brother, Abel, was derived “out of the Evil One” (I John 3:12). The apostle John explains that “the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: every one not expressing righteousness is not ek theos, “out of God” (I John 3:10).

The British Bible teacher and author, W. Ian Thomas, expresses this dichotomy of derivation from either God or Satan so succinctly.


“As godliness is the direct and exclusive consequence of God’s activity, and God’s capacity to reproduce Himself in you, so all ungodliness is the direct and exclusive consequence of Satan’s activity, and of his capacity to reproduce the devil in you! …For iniquity is no more the consequence of your capacity to imitate the devil, than godliness is the consequence of your capacity to imitate God!”6


Evangelicals, as a whole, are not willing to accept this clear-cut dichotomy of derivation, that “what man does, must be derived from a spirit-source.” Instead, they insist that whenever sinful character is expressed, whether in the unregenerate or in the regenerate, it is generated ek eautos, “out of oneself,” which effectively makes man a devil. A popular variation of the thesis explains that sinfulness is derived ek eautos from an intrinsic straw-man called “self.” What is this, but a variation of the humanistic premise that man is an “independent self” that can generate character and activity ek eautos, “out of himself” – the very premise that was explicitly denied at the beginning of this section, because God alone Self-generates His character ek eautos. If sinful expression is blamed on an alleged independent personal resource called “self,” or on some “dirty old man” within, then religion can revert back to the self-effort of performance whereby man attempts to solve his own problems, for his alleged problem is a “self-problem.” In evangelical humanism this often takes the form of masochistic attempts to beat oneself into moral conformity, or to psycho-suicidal attempts to “crucify self” or to “die to self.” Though we are admonished by Jesus to “deny ourselves” (Luke 9:23), by disallowing self-oriented sinful expression in Christian behavior, this is not equivalent to the encouragement of evangelical humanism to become better Christians by crucifying or suppressing this alleged “self”-resource within that allegedly generates our sinfulness. What a con-game the Evil One has going on as he disguises his sin-activity under the cloak of “self,” deceiving man into thinking that man himself is the devil-self who is producing sin, and prompting man to engage in masochistic self-effort to destroy or crucify this “self.” Man is thus regarded to be his own devil and his own savior – this is the lie of evangelical humanism!

Blessings,
Pilgrim

R
roadsign


Thank you Pilgrim for your thoughts and the excerpt by James Fowler. Do you see any way that the God-view of 2 Cor 4:4 as presented by Hartley would diminish the role of Satan in sin or question what Fowler has said?

You ask a fair question here:

Did not the "god of this world" offer kingdoms to the Lord Jesus if He would bow down and worship him?

There is no question that Satan viewed himself as GOD, and required Christ do likewise. But would that be a reason Paul would also wish to call Satan o theos (GOD)?
As an aside, it’s worth noting that it was God who sent Jesus into the desert to be tempted by Satan. God was still God.

Regarding this statement:

“the prince of the power of the air, who is working in the sons of disobedience” (Eph. 2:2), because “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving” (II Cor. 4:4)

Note how the presupposition is supported by merging 2 Cor. 4: 4 with Eph. 2:2 - making them say the same thing. But what then do you do with the verses which refer to God as the one who blinds – a teaching which arises out of the Law, the prophets, the gospels and the epistles. Must they all be trumped in view of the ASSUMPTION that in 2 Cor. 4:4 o theos is Satan?

Notice that 2 Cor. 4:4 says nothing about this GOD being a liar, deceiver, and all those evil things about Satan. Therefore the question that remains: How might the God-view of 2 Cor. 4:4 put Satan’s functions in question – or anything Fowler himself claims? And vise versa.

Diane

P
pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

Thank you for reading my little contribution. I just want to acknowledge that I have read your latest but can't post yet. I just finished a long post and must go now. I am however, thinking about what you wrote and will reply at my earliest convenience.

May the Lord bless you richly,
Pilgrim

R
roadsign

Fowler teaches:

Popular evangelical teaching often bristles at the idea that man derives his functional expression from a spiritual source in either God or Satan.

The either/or of spiritual character derivation is very clear in the scriptures. Righteousness is derived ek theos, “out of God” by faith (Phil. 3:9). Goodness is derived ek theos, “out of God” (III John 11) by one who has “seen God.” On the other hand, sin is derived ek diabolos, “out of the devil” (I John 3:8)

Pilgrim, Which of the above two categories would Fowler (or you) place these verses:

But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, Ex. 7:3

But Pharaoh hardened his heart … Ex. 8:32

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he was not willing to release them. Ex. 10:27

Why harden your hearts like the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? 1 Sam. 6:6

… whoever hardens his heart will fall into evil. Prov 28:18

Why O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
and harden our hearts so that we do not revere you? Is. 63:17

Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” Heb. 3:15


P
pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

Just a point of clarification, please.

Are you saying that 2 Cor 4:4 "god of this world" is actually speaking of God or Satan?

I can't find anything that Fowler believes on the "hardening of the heart", but I will post later what I think it means.

If the "god of this world" is Satan, then he blinds people by misrepresenting the truth. People are also blinded by not having the Spirit of Truth. Have you considered 2 Cor 2:7?

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Of course, people could say the same thing about God, Almighty. That he is the "god of this world" and people are blinded because they are lost (i.e. do not have the Spirit of Truth that I talked about earlier).

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

However, I believe 2 Cor 4:4 is speaking about Satan.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The above verse, "the god of this world" is contrasted with "lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ...who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

How has God hid these things from the "wise and prudent"?

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

FOOLISHNESS!

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

And this is how many are blinded to the truth.

Once again:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is the foolishness of God which hardens men's hearts and foolishness probably hardened Pharoah's heart. Afterall, he had his own magicians, didn't he?

I have seen it many times demonstrated by the "wise" of this world. I have been absolutely derided by the "wise" when presenting the Gospel to them. I could sense their hearts hardening as we spoke.

It is good to be hashing this out with you,

If I skipped over anything please let me know.

Pilgrim

P.S. Please consider these verses, too.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, ("Pharoah's magicians")

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (Why didn't they receive the love of the truth?)

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (How does He send strong delusion?)

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

R
roadsign

Thank you Pilgrim for the list of verses. Could you share how any of these might put in question any of the specific points in my proposition as described in a few posts back about o theos being God in 2 Cor. 4:4. I see no reason to believe so. Also, how might Hartley’s exegetical paper be subject to questioning?

Here’s the key: If it is not possible to refute this view as presented, then is it not fair to suggest that the God-view might indeed be correct? Also, then one can legitimately suggest that the o theos=Satan view is simply retained as the default presupposition because it is the general assumption – and is simply not open to reconsideration even though it seems to disregard context and make Scripture contradict itself.

Thoughts?

Diane

R
roadsign


It won’t be easy to find a tidy consensus about who does what in this grand cosmic drama of God, humanity, and the devil. So I press on, and likely certain truths will unfold for us. For now, I want to continue in this theme of hardening/blinding/dulling.

----------------------------
What is this condition called hardening of the heart? We do want to know don’t we? After all, it is a serious spiritual condition – more harmful to us than hardening in the cardiovascular system (sclerosis). Both physical and spiritual forms are silent killers– because it is difficult to detect early warning signs. Just as for the physical disease, we do want to know as much as we can about spiritual hardening of the heart: early detection, prevention, and so forth.

Unfortunately, we don’t hear too many alarm bells about this condition - spiritual arteriosclerosis. Yet the Bible contains many warnings. One Greek word used is: sklerokardian. You can easily see the two familiar words here, “sclerosis” and “cardiac”.

We are dealing with a silent killer. In fact, the more progressed this spiritual hardening gets, the less likely we are to know it, or believe it even if we are told we have it. The worse we get, the more certain we are that we are fine. Besides, there will always be someone come along to tell us how fine we are doing.

Lately the Lord has been speaking to me about this theme of hardening. This morning he provided a helpful illustration. Here it is:

After leaving for work, my husband called me on his i-phone to ask me to bring along his piccolo trumpet to tonight’s symphony rehearsal. While still on the phone with him, I opened the closet door to check that it was there. He then said some words which caught me off guard. He said, “That door hinge needs greasing!” I replied, “What??”

Do you see what’s going on? Here we are, two musicians with ears carefully attuned to the delicate nuances of musical sound. Yet we had both become “deaf” to the obnoxious squeak in the door hinge of the closet – a door we open and shut every day. Tim finally heard it by phone. Yet standing right next to that door, with our ear nearly pressed against the hinge did nothing to alert us. Quite the opposite! We became overly-familiarized.

This describes spiritual hardening. It is a dulling of the senses to certain kinds of revelation. It’s like ignoring the warning lights on your car’s dashboard for so long that you don’t even know anymore that it’s blinking at you.

This is a big issue here. After all, it touches on the key promise of the New Covenant - the element that makes the New Covenant different from the old. It’s what makes obedience to God possible – in a way that the Old Covenant could not do. It’s about God’s great gift to us: The Spirit within.

To become dulled to this Spirit speaking within is a serious matter.

What is happening here?

cont'd....
Diane

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pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

I have reread your post at 2012/4/23 5:54 and am now currently reading the link that you posted, (A Case for Yahweh as the ‘God of this Age.’).

It will take some time (22 pages). I will surely get back to you.

Cheers,
Pilgrim

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roadsign

I have reread your post at 2012/4/23 5:54 and am now currently reading the link that you posted, (A Case for Yahweh as the ‘God of this Age.’).

It will take some time (22 pages). I will surely get back to you.

Cheers,
Pilgrim

I pray that God will bless your adventure, Pilgrim. I see challenges like this as a way to strengthen our thinking. It helps us take ownership of our beliefs. I have been blessed by your desire to become stronger in your faith.

Diane

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roadsign

“… for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.” Mark 6:52

I used to associate the idea of “hardened” with the bad people – you know, as in the “hardened criminal”. In the church, these are our spiritual sociopaths. They have not an ounce of compassion for you or me and they care not a whit for the things of God. They are too stuck on themselves.

That description is handy in that it conveniently absolves myself. After all, I am NOT one of those kinds of people. Oh no! However, besides promoting self-deception, that image is a serious distortion of biblical thought.

In scripture the heart and mind are essentially synonymous. References to the dulling of the mind, the hardening of the heart, the blinding, deaf ears, and so forth are all ways of saying the same thing: You aren’t “getting it”! It’s the inability to understand and perceive spiritual revelation.

In Mark 6, we see how some of those who had witnessed the loaves and fish miracle were hardened. Who were these hardened people? The crowd? The abominable Pharisees? No. They were Jesus’ disciples! These men had experienced the mighty miracle, but had failed to “get it”. That truth became evident in their reaction of amazement to Jesus next miracle in which he walked on water and calmed the wind. We ask: How is being amazed by this miracle an indication of hardened hearts? Wouldn’t most of us be amazed to see a miracle like that today – or any miracle! Does that mean we are hardened too?

It does not seem to be merely a matter of reacting to the miracles, but of understanding the deeper spiritual realities. In Mark 8 another indication of the disciples’ hardness is evidenced in their response to these words by Jesus: “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”

The disciples could only think “literally”. But by thinking merely of literal bread they missed the point. They didn’t “get it”. [a worthy point for all who are zealous to interpret the Bible “literally” ] Jesus said, “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you fail to hear? And don’t you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?
“Twelve”, they replied.
“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?
They answered “Seven”.
He said to them, “Do you STILL NOT UNDERSTAND?”

If we keep on reading in Mark we see how Mark develops this theme of harden-ness. So you must read on. Next we see a blind man who becomes only partially sighted after Jesus put spit on his eyes. His sight was fully restored only after the second touch by Jesus. What a strange story. But does that not also describe the dilemma of the disciples? We next see Peter confessing Jesus as the Christ. But he is only partially sighted. He really does not “get it” even yet, and therefore he opposes Jesus’s references to suffering and death. That does not fit into Peter’s way of thinking because he does not have in mind the things of God. He attempts to dissuade Jesus from going to the cross, just as Satan did at the onset of Jesus’ ministry (Mt. 4:8-10).

But Peter’s partial sightedness is still evident at the Transfiguration. He wants to erect three tents. It seems he is still in the Old Covenant mindset, and wants to retain the “shadow” – that is, the tent – the means by which God met his people in former days. [Is the contemporary desire today for shadows (symbols, rituals, edifices) rather than the real essence not also an indication of hardening?]

Next in Mark we read the episode where the disciples could not heal the demon possessed boy. Jesus responds in exasperation: “Oh unbelieving generation….”
Then the despairing father of the boy says to Jesus, “But IF YOU CAN do anything, take pity on us and help us.”

NOTE JESUS RESPONSE:

“If you can? … Everything is possible for him who believes.”

And then note the father’s admission of partial “sightedness”.
“I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

…. And next Jesus withdraws to teach his disciples about coming suffering.

BUT THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND. …

We could go on further…. But do you see how hardness (blindness)relates to unbelief (or partial belief)? True healing of spiritual blindness comes with true belief in Christ - for who he really is- in his true redemptive purpose.

Diane


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pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

I am considering "hardness of hearts" to it's opposite. "Softness" of heart.

My mind went to these two verses that I will be considering (along with others) as our hearts are likened to ground (good ground, bad ground). Another good discussion! Are you trying to keep me busy? ;-)

Hos 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

God bless you, today.
Pilgrim

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roadsign

break up your fallow ground

Yet another metaphor! Soil that repels the life producing seed of the Spirit. You’d think God is eager to convey this idea of dulled receptivity? We must surely be onto something important ….. so we had better take note!

In scripture I see different means by which the soil gets hardened.

1) God himself hardens those who insistently resist him - to display the glory of his presence and power. Pharaoh is the classic example (Rom. 9-11).

2) There seems to be a broader sense in which a thick darkness covers fallen humanity (Is. 60). It’s a spiritual black out caused by God’s overall judgment - leaving “the world” under the spell of the devil. But this blackout becomes the platform on which God performs his mighty miracle of redemption: The light shines in the darkness. I think that’s the point of the account of the blind man whom Jesus healed. The blindness was not a matter of who sinned but a matter of Jesus’ glory being displayed.

3) We can also harden our own hearts and prevent it. I say “we” here because I believe this is a biblical warning specifically to God’s people - those who have heard and tasted the blessings of the Spirit. It is a word for TODAY –as in Hebrews:


“Today if you hear his voice
do not harden your hearts
As you did in the rebellion.” Heb. 3:15

Hebrews is written, not to the lost, but to believers – those who have had their ears unstopped and have received the gift of sight through the Spirit. We can agree that it is easy for us to get dulled to the Spirit’s voice and not even know it. We won’t know we have fallen into the habit of quenching the Spirit because we have tuned him out for so long. It’s like ignoring the squeaky hinge for so long that we really don’t hear it. Other voices, interests, and attractions have come to occupy our attention. We have lost our first love. Then, out of habit we submit our attention to our other interests till they have control over us. Our capacity to submit to God and to one another out of love has been compromised and we don't even see it.


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roadsign

Pondering over this topic has had a practical effect on me. For example, a recent email from Christianity Today lured my attention with a catchy title about volatile obituaries on Charles Colson. I was about to click it, but paused first. In that split second it occurred to me that this was not God’s will. I did not need to know this stuff. It would merely occupy my mental space – the space needed for other mental process – like thinking about people I am truly responsible to – family, "neighbors", - those people truly in my life. And worse, it would dull my capacity to receive from God. After all, you can’t hear God when your mind is running a mile a minute with superfluous thoughts. And so it the "click" would have been a violation of the great commandment.

“Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” Heb. 4:7

In other words, while you yet have the capacity to hear God, don’t ignore him! Listen while your ears are tender to his voice. Or else you will eventually expose yourself to God’s judgment, and he won’t say anything to you at all. You will have lost your capacity to hear the Spirit's voice within.

Because this is a real possibility for believers, we are required to look out for each other DAILY:

“See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER DAILY, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be HARDENED by sin’s deceitfulness.” Heb. 3:12-13

Questions:
1) How might we thwart one another’s spiritual sensitivity to God?

2) Conversely, how might we encourage one another to keep our ear’s open to God’s voice – so that God’s Spirit is not quenched?

3) How might we encourage one another in a way that helps break the fallow ground of our hearts – that we may be sure to receive the righteousness of God?

Diane

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roadsign

The book of Hebrews is helpful for our theme of godly submission: It reminds us that one goal for Christian submission is to protect each other from straying and becoming hardened.

Consider this explanation of heart-hardness:

“The heart represents the total response of a person to life around him or her and to the religious and moral demands of God. Hardness of heart thus describes a negative condition in which the person ignores, spurns, or rejects the gracious offer of God to be a part of his or her life.” (source: the web)

A big question confronts us: Can truly regenerated believers become so hardened that they ‘lose’ their salvation? Verses from Hebrews are often used to challenge the OSAS debate (once-saved-always-saved). Hebrews demonstrates how Israel strayed and never got to enter God’s rest. Yet, it seems evident from their desert history that the Israelites never evidenced true faith in the first place. We ask: How can those whose hearts never truly abandoned their former ways and never truly turned to God by faith, stray from God. We would assume that only true believers can stray from God? But can unbelievers stray from God? The Hebrews epistle would suggest that they can.

Here’s how I see it: When the chosen people of God had the chance - when God’s glory was so very nearby, when his Spirit was with them in the many miracles, when there were so vulnerable and needy, and utterly dependent on God ….. when they were most predisposed to receiving and accepting God through faith - they resisted. At the opportune time, they turned the other way. In other words, they strayed into the opposite direction, spiritually. They hardened their hearts against God.

Their descendents strayed further. They became so resistant and hardened that God himself hardened their hearts. Then they became totally desensitized to God: They could not see, hear, or understand. By Samuel’s day, God’s voice was rarely heard among them.

All that to say: Lost people can stray from God. It’s a progressive disorder. The people harden their own hearts by resisting God’s mercy in the time of opportunity …. Then God hardens them through judgment. The book of Hebrews, I think refers to the season of opportunity - when God has provided the capacity to respond to God – the opportune time: Today.

Regarding the OSAS debate, I see another reason for caution in using texts from Hebrews: The context is about a corporate people, whereas OSAS strictly refers to individuals. (Remember, we are shaped to think individualistically). Israel’s general diagnosis did not apply to all the individuals. There were indeed some who entered God’s rest by faith, even when the majority did not.

Hebrews was written to believers. So why did the writer use Israel’s history as a warning? It does not seem to be a perfect parallel: old covenant vs new covenant people. Obviously that wasn’t an issue for the writer. The main point seems to be that it is indeed possible for God’s people to stray from God and become hardened. That’s true corporately, and over the span of a few generations. It’s also possible for regenerated people to resist the Spirit within, or we wouldn’t be warned about it so often. This harms us and our relationships with God and others, and it also damages God’s testimony to the world. Therefore we are assigned the responsibility to encourage one another in the faith, so that we won’t drift.

Here’s one example: We can do that through exercising care in our use of the Hebrews text themselves – lest we distract each other from the main point of the epistle – and do the very thing Hebrews is trying to keep us from doing! Our call is not to be theoretical managers of people’s final destiny. That’s not the point of Hebrews.

We have a responsibility for TODAY towards one another. In the time of opportunity we proclaim the gift of salvation, and encourage one another to walk in the Spirit – and thus remain sensitive to our first love.

That is the law. Praise God!


Diane

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pilgrim777

A big question confronts us: Can truly regenerated believers become so hardened that they ‘lose’ their salvation? Verses from Hebrews are often used to challenge the OSAS debate (once-saved-always-saved). Hebrews demonstrates how Israel strayed and never got to enter God’s rest. Yet, it seems evident in their desert history that the Israelites never evidenced true faith in the first place. We ask: How can those whose hearts never truly abandoned their former ways and never truly turned to God by faith, stray from God. We would assume that only true believers can stray from God? But can unbelievers stray from God? The Hebrews epistle would suggest that they can.

In the following verses, the Pharisees sought to lay a snare, trap before Jesus. This indicates that they did not come to Him in faith, but rather unbelief. They did not have faith and could not believe, and that is why they asked for a sign.

Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
Mar 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

So, Jesus warns His disciples about the Pharisees and tells them to beware of their leaven (False doctrine which arises from unbelief and refusal to receive God's truth).

And Jesus links the leaven of the Pharisees (and Herod) to lack of understanding and discernment, asking His disciples whether their hearts are hardended or not.

Mar 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Depending on what we receive and believe (false doctrine, lies), our hearts can be hardened. We are receptive creatures, receiving many things into our spirits and not always understanding or discerning what we receive and whether it is from God or a counterfeit. We are having a discussion on Christians and War, and Killing and my contention is that this is false doctrine that will harden our hearts. It is the leaven of Herod (political system) and the Pharisees (religious system).

Later in Mark 8, we see some that came to Jesus in faith, including a blind man. And the result? He was healed and could see. Unbelief had not hardened his heart.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

(I am still working through that pdf of yours Diane. It is going a bit slow, but I'll get there).

Pilgrim


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roadsign

Mar 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

I see this reference as a helpful illustration of harden-ness. Here you see that this is not about behavior as much as about capability. The disciples, even though they had faith, were still not able to see fully, like the semi-healed blind man. A greater healing awaited them. In this way the disciples themselves would become evidence of the covenant promise proclaimed by the prophets: The blind will see, etc. Perhaps this is why we see so many references to their harden-ness: This provides the backdrop to fulfillment at Pentecost – and thus proves God’s faithfulness to his covenant promise - the Spirit within.

What do you think?

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pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

I think until the Lord reaches our spirit with His truth and changes us, we will have hardness of heart in certain areas of our lives. In another discussion (Christians and War) we see that the disciples had a hardness of heart (no understanding or discernment) when it came to rescuing themselves and the Lord by the arm of the flesh (physical force). But, later after the Lord resurrected and they were filled with the Holy Spirit we see exemplified in their lives a life of nonresistance in the face of hostile aggression and forgiveness and good deeds towards their "enemy".

What softens our hard hearts is when the Lord is able to reach deeper, past our minds into our spirits and communicate something higher to us that what we see, feel and hear with our senses.

Pilgrim

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roadsign

What softens our hard hearts is when the Lord is able to reach deeper, past our minds into our spirits and communicate something higher to us that what we see, feel and hear with our senses.

Just a few questions Pilgrim that may help me understand what you are saying here:

1. What scriptures would you draw from?

2. What would our role be in this process?

3. How does this compare or contrast with passivity of mind?

Diane


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roadsign

Through Ezekiel God promised a cure for hardness of heart:

“I will give you a new heart and put a NEW SPIRIT in you;
I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.”
Ezekiel 36:26

Many years ago God gave me a vision using this very imagery to represent my own life. In the vision I saw before me a long tunnel going in a downward direction. At the bottom I could see a bright light. As my focus drew closer towards the end of the tunnel I could see a surface of stones. I realized that the light of God’s Spirit was shining on the stones in my heart/mind.

And indeed that’s how it was. It was a downward journey … or so it felt. The many subsequent downturns in life helped reveal what I could never see before. I did not necessarily know what was indeed a “stone” from God’s perspective – at least not at the time. Nevertheless, God was working in my life and helping me see areas that needed transformation. And there were many areas…. one after another. For examples, there were assumptions about life, about God, about salvation, about myself, about church and so forth. There was much about myself that worked to resist God’s Spirit – though I had not known it. During this time God brought people into my life who encouraged me to trust God and listen to the Spirit. That was an entire new approach to my Christian walk. Many times God rewarded my baby steps of faith and assured me of his presence and his guidance.

Then one day God gave me a follow up vision, perhaps in response to a prayer request. I may have asked God how I was doing. In this vision I revisited that stony area at the end of the tunnel, only this time there was mostly soil – and a few stones scattered around. It was God’s report card. I was encouraged to know that, though I didn’t feel particularly more spiritual, from God’s perspective I was moving in the right direction. I had no idea what those remaining stones signified. There was no need to know right then. After all, the Spirit could manage me quite well. That’s the covenant promise!

If you are a farmer of the land, you realize that you will always have to deal with stones in your fields. You can pick up all the stones in the spring, but in a few years more stones will rise up to the surface; and you will have to remove them. It’s like that with stones in our heart. Through the Spirit’s work, God gives us a new heart, a heart of flesh. But this is also an ongoing process. Over time stones creep to the surface, and have to be removed. You can’t see them when they are in the darkness beneath the surface. But when they rise and are exposed by the light, then you can see them for what they are – and you remove them – with God’s help. That is the way it works in the Christian life. In fact, seeing the stones, and desiring to see them removed is an indication that you belong to him and his Spirit is working in you – as promised:

“I will give them an undivided heart and put a NEW SPIRIT in them;
I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
They will be my people, and I will be their God.”
Ezekiel 11:19,20


And this is the only way we can become truly submissive to our Lord.

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pilgrim777

Hi Diane,

We receive our new Spirit and new Heart by virtue of receiving the Spirit of Christ through regeneration.

We harden our new heart when we transgress or receive not the truth (lies). Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, Jesus said in Mark 8. Leaven is "mixture" and mixture robs the truth of it's life-giving effect on us. After Jesus warns His disciples about the "leaven of the Pharisees", He later scolds them for their lack of understanding (hardness of heart).

Pilgrim said:
What softens our hard hearts is when the Lord is able to reach deeper, past our minds into our spirits and communicate something higher to us than what we see, feel and hear with our senses.

Diane said:
Just a few questions Pilgrim that may help me understand what you are saying here:

1. What scriptures would you draw from?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

2. What would our role be in this process?

The Lord is able to reach past our senses when we are walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. When we are abiding in Him and beholding Him and fellowshipping with Him. When He speaks to us, we must be walking in Him in order to receive of Him. Our role is to yield to His Spirit so that we might be be receptive to His Spirit and His Spirit will lead us into all truth keeping us from "mixture", leaven.

This all leads to your 3rd great question.

3. How does this compare or contrast with passivity of mind?

When we receive "mixture" we then adjust the Word and no longer receive the "pure word of God". When we stop receiving the pure Word of God and are receiving "mixture" (leaven), and we are no longer being conformed to the image of Christ but to the image of man (really Satan), because leaven does not come from God. It comes from Satan through man. When we receive the pure Word of God our hearts stay soft and tender before Him but when we receive an "adjusted" Word because of mixture, we then become partial and hypocritical. Mixture hardens our hearts and brings us into fear of man. When you fear man you actually become a man-pleaser. You become what you fear. When you become a man-pleaser you also become a man that wants honor from man. You please man so that you might be accepted by man and to be accepted by man you will gladly receive honor from man. That is the ultimate of being a man-pleaser: receiving honor from man.

Mixture may be small at first, but just as leaven spreads, the mixture in one's life will spread and eventually harden our hearts more and more the Lord and to loving the pure Word of God and hearing it. Jesus says the leaven makes us "dull of hearing" and "hardens our hearts". It is God's Word and the love of His Word (Truth) that keeps our hearts soft and pliable and sensitive to Him and merciful to our fellow man.

Passivity comes when we receive mixture and believe a lie, because we are now believing in and trusting in a false security. False security tells us that we are fine when we are not. We become passive towards God as a result of our false security. I can go deeper but I think you get the gist.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Pilgrim

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pilgrim777

Hello Diane,

If you don't mind, I would like to post one more post here (now you will have two posts to read). This concept of hardness of heart really goes back to the fundamentals of God's Word in various ways, (if we receive it and how we receive it).

The importance of God's Word cannot be underestimated in all the many ways in which is works in us. We know that the spoken Word is the source of creation. "...the worlds were framed by the word of God." Hebrews 11:3

"By the Word of the Lord the heavens were made and by the breath of His mouth all their host." Psalm 33:6

So, we see that LIFE comes from God's mouth.

His Word then, becomes the seed which brings forth spiritual life.

"For you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God." 1 Pet 1:23

"...and this is the word which was preached to you," 1 Pet 1:25

The Word brings one into living union with God (if the Word is kept).

"If anyone love Me, he will keep my word; and My Father will love him and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." John 14:23

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Conclusion: God's word is living and able to bring forth life. God's word, dwelling in the believer, brings forth life and God's work in him.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The Effects of the Living Word:

1. Produces living faith.

2. Is health and strength to the soul (milk for the new believer, bread for the hungry and meat for the mature).
1 Peter 2:1-2, Matthew 4:4, Heb 5:14

3. Is health and strength to the body. (God's Word has power to heal and will sustain our physical health). Psalm 107:17-20, Isa 55:11, Matt 8:8.

4. Gives understanding to our minds. The understanding of the sinner is darkened (Eph 4:17-18, Col 1:21). The Child of God must renew his mind (Rom 12:2, II Cor 10:5).

5. Is our victory over Satan (Eph 6:17).

The communicated, living Word must have a dwelling place. As the divine Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, so must the spoken Word find a habitation within us that it may bring forth the life and character of God.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;" Col 3:16

Now we get to the part about having a hard heart or soft heart.

"That He might sanctify her (the church) having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word." Eph 5:26

Sanctification is a consquence of cleansing. There are two cleansing agents: The Blood cleanses from actual sin. Heb 13:12, 1 John 1:7

The Word washes from daily defilement.
"Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth." John 17:17
Also, John 15:3, II Cor 7:1, Eph 5:26.

The court of the Tabernacle contained two pieces of furniture for cleansing; the altar and the laver. One approaching God must first pass by the altar and then he must pass by the laver. (Exo 30:17-21). The altar required a sacrifice of blood; the laver was a washing with water. Mirrors in the basin reflected the image of the one washing (James 1:23).

The Laver is a type of the Word.

That's all I want to post tonight. I want to give everyone a chance to read and think about this. (I am still working on that pdf of yours, Diane)

But this all leads me into Sanctification which means separation. To sanctify means "to set apart for a sacred use". This is a very important concept regarding roadsign's thesis on "hardening of the heart". Which will lead us into "Repentance" (the missing part of the Gospel being preached today), which keeps our heart (ground) soft.

Not only does the Christian life begin with repentance, it must continue in repentance. In other words, the Christian must maintain an attitude of repentance. This could be called a humble attitude or one who is "poor in spirit". For God to do His perfect work the attitude of brokenness before Him is necessary. We are not to be worms of the earth with a sin complex but open and humble before God and others, ready to acknowledge our faults and sins, ready to accept the responsibility of our attitudes, actions and being. Humility is born out of repentance. Humility is the ground out of which Christian virtue/character grows.

All the best,
Pilgrim

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roadsign

Thank you for your delightful smorgasbord of scriptures, Pilgrim. You can tell you are onto a relevant topic when you find lots to say about it – especially when you see it all through the Bible.

This theme of heart-hardness covers a vast landscape, not only in the biblical pages, but also in the human heart. The heart (mind/conscious, etc) can be a broad territory of “stony” ideas, beliefs, habits, cultural/religious presuppositions, and so forth. “Broad (also) is the way that leads to destruction.” Matt. 7:13

I’m going to return back to the idea of the Spirit of God eclipsing the mind – that is, goes beyond the mental processes to bestow divine revelation. This morning I was told that God speaks directly to the “gut”, that is our feelings, and that’s where we must allow ourselves to receive his revelation. That’s our “spirit”, after all. The assumption is that our mind is something bad and unreliable. It just gets in the way. I was given an example of a brain damaged child who became considered the ultimate arbitrator of divine revelation. I asked this person it we would not all be better to be brain damaged. …..

Why is it that in Christian circles which try especially hard to be spiritual, intelligence must be so severely degraded? Why! A truly spiritual pastor doesn't bother preparing a sermon, but simply relies on the Lord on Sunday morning.

The assumption that divine revelation bypasses our mind can border closely on hypnosis, or the hypnotic behaviors we see in some eastern religions … or some “revivals” today. I see it as symptomatic of the dulling of the mind – the very symptom of divine judgment! This is not symptomatic of super-spirituality, but the opposite: heart-hardenness! And so what’s bad gets called good (and vice versa). That is surely symptomatic of spiritual blindness!

I ask, can a revelation come into our “spirit” but not our mind? Perhaps. But if we are conscious of revelation, is our mind not operational? Where do we apply the scalpel to distinguish the two compartments of our inner being" spirit vs mind. I think it’s best to resist that habit, because we may merely “baptize” stony ground. The emotions become the arbitrator of truth. If it feels right, it must be right. If it feels wrong, it must be wrong. This is symptomatic of stony ground, because it will resist divine truth that may feel uncomfortable – that is, be convicting or that fails to provide the emotional “lift”.

I do find one verse that may suggest a distinction between “spirit” and “mind” – and that is where Paul refers to speaking in tongues, but it hardly suggest we should make a habit of putting “spirit” over mind. “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” 1 Cor. 14:14 What Paul actually means here by “spirit” may be very different than we scientifically programmed modern folk may assume.

Regardless, I am convinced that God’s Spirit is capable of bypassing all the stones in our heart and reaching the core – where he convicts us, gives us new understanding, new revelation, and above all, new life in HIS Spirit…. and the truths seen in the verses Pilgrim presents above. If God couldn’t penetrate the stones, and change the heart, who could be saved?

“For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 4:6

Diane

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pilgrim777

Thank you for your delightful smorgasbord of scriptures, Pilgrim. You can tell you are onto a relevant topic when you find lots to say about it – especially when you see it all through the Bible.

Yes, the Lord lays the foundation and builds upon it but always stays with what "works". And who knows better than He? Delightful is a good word. This is a delightful study and it is good to be reminded about these things.

I’m going to return back to the idea of the Spirit of God eclipsing the mind – that is, goes beyond the mental processes to bestow divine revelation.

This is a very good place to go next. How does God illuminate our mind to understand His revelation?

I have some thoughts on this.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

P
pilgrim777

I’m going to return back to the idea of the Spirit of God eclipsing the mind – that is, goes beyond the mental processes to bestow divine revelation.

God is a God of communication. His very nature of love requires expression. Before creation there was communication and fellowship only in the Godhead. It was a natural response to man, His highest creature, made in His image.

God's thoughts and concepts were put into words understood by man. Later they were written in symbols of a written language and preserved.

God is able to perfectly express Himself through revelation.

REVELATION is the transmission of truth from the heart of God to man.

The Bible did not come by scientific investigation and human reason; it came by revelation.

1) Man's knowledge, which is limited to his EXPERIENCE, cannot be revelation.

2) Revelation truth is objective to man, having come from another source.

3) Revelation truth does not come through human reasoning, because logic is conclusive rather than revelation and once again limited to our experiences.

What is the Vehicle of Revelation? The Holy Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1) Only God's Spirit knows the thoughts of God
2) God's Spirit has REVEALED to us things that eye has not seen nor ear heard (1 Cor 2:9), which by implication is totally beyond our understanding and experience.
3) "REVEALED" means "To Uncover".

INSPIRATION

Revelation came to men through WORDS - INSPIRATION

The revelation came through a human language.

Inspiration is the act of God the Holy Spirit to enable Bible writers to write down in God-chosen words, the truth revealed.

For the truth to be given to man it must be transmitted through a human language.

1) The Bible is written in human language
2) Language is a reliable medium of communication

The Words of the language must be inspired (God-breathed) by the Spirit (II Tim 3:16)

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1Co 2:13)

1) Putting spiritual thoughts with spiritual words is the work of the Spirit of God.
2) God did not leave it to human wisdom to transmit divine truth.
3) Verbal inspiration means that both the truth contained and the means of expressing is come by the Spirit of God.

Men were moved by the Spirit.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pe 1:21)

1) MOVED by the Spirit means "borne along by," "directed in their course by," "impelled by," as "a sailboat impelled by the wind."
2) a prophet is one who speaks words which God puts in his mouth; written prophecy follows the same principle.
3) The human will is not the source of revelation; God is the author
4) Accuracy does not depend upon human observation or memory.

The Holy Spirit overruled the frailty of human error.

"The words of the Lord are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times" (Psa 12:6)

Conclusion: God is able to purge all the dross of human error from the flawless silver of God's message to man. Pure silver can come from an earthen furnace.

TO ENSURE PERFECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE REVELATION - ILLUMINATION

The natural man does not understand the things of God.

Illumination is the act of God the Holy Spirit enabling believers to understand the truth given by revelation and written by inspiration.

OBSERVATIONS

The natural man without the understanding of the Spirit does NOT ACCEPT the things of God.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1Co 2:14)

1) Any revelation which comes outside of man's experience seems foolish to him.
2) The truths of God can only be examined and considered as valid by those who are spiritual
3) The Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to appraise spiritually.

He who has the Spirit understands the "Mind of Christ."

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1Co 2:16)

1) The illumination of the Spirit is necessary to understand the truth revealed.
2) Human logic will twist and pervert revelation.
3) Only the Spirit knows the mind of Christ.

So, we see that God is able to communicate to man through the human language and COMPLETE accuracy is due to the perfect operation of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual truths must be understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

Satan has focused his attack on the Word of God. If he can cause man to doubt that God has spoken, then man has no final authority or direction for his life. The denial of the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures undercuts the authority of the Word of God and man is left to himself to determine did God speak here or did He not.

Pilgrim

C
Christinyou

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

This is where it all started for me in the same tunnel you spoke of Diane. The tunnel was straight and level with a slight upward turn. The light was kinda far off in the tunnel in the direction I was going. I kept bumping into the obstacles in the tunnel because it was so dark. I wanted more light so I could see the obstacles and began to run to the light. The faster and harder I ran the more I fell and the light got dimmer. Finally I could run no more and just fell on my knees and to my surprise the light became brighter and came to me. This is the only vision, dream, or what ever you want to call it, I have had, so it is to this day still, reigns in my heart.

That is how revelation has come to me. Christ has become brighter in me and I am being conformed line upon line and precept upon precept and revelation upon revelation from darkness to Light, to the image of Christ who was the Light in the tunnel coming to me.

So it is today, the harder I try the less I become. He is the Light and the more of Him I let shine in me the more I become as He is in this world. As Paul said, "I have not obtained yet, but I do press on toward the High Calling of God in Christ Jesus". If I do take my eyes off Him, I still stumble in the tunnel and and fall on my knees before Him.

As He is still comming to me in the tunnel.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

There is only one true light, this we must descern by the true light that is in us. By the Holy Spirit power of the Spirit of Christ that dwell in us as Light.

In the Light of Christ: Phillip

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roadsign

I kept bumping into the obstacles in the tunnel because it was so dark. The faster and harder I ran the more I fell and the light got dimmer. Finally I could run no more and just fell on my knees and to my surprise the light became brighter and came to me.

This is powerful imagery, Philip! Praise God for giving it to you, and for you sharing it!

As I see the vision, it illustrates our tendency to strive too hard, to become OVER- spiritual. It’s no less than the doctrine of works. It’s as if God isn’t enough. I can never appreciate what exists right now because it is not good enough. I can never accept God’s grace at work in me. I must top it up. This really is an issue of partial belief, is it not, like the man who was partially healed… like the disciples who themselves were trying hard to “help” Jesus out – resist his death and instead preserve the present glory in tents. To slow down can feel like death in itself. We surrender control.

Praise God that he himself sets obstacles in our way – to slow us down - even though it may cause us to stumble many times on the way through the tunnel of life.

May God work in each of us, to expose any roots of unbelief – that we may learn to walk freely and joyfully, at rest with him – yoked with him who carries the load.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matt. 11:30

Diane

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roadsign

How does God illuminate our mind to understand His revelation?

Pilgrim, It seems you are doing a fine job addressing this question through the scriptures and explanations you provide ….. such as this:

The Effects of the Living Word:
1. Produces living faith.

... when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

A comment on this:

The Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to appraise spiritually.

I might add the words, “and truthfully” to counteract the assumption that anything spiritual is from God. After all there is a dark spirit reality too – that masqueraders as the Light – and appears even MORE spiritual - especially for those eager to be spiritual .... but not particularly eager for God himself.

And this:

The natural man does not understand the things of God.

I am reminded of Martin Luther, who after his conversion from works to grace, saw everything in a new light. With his new “set of eye glasses” even the natural elements revealed God’s glorious Promise. The world was no longer a terrible naturalness … a thousand wastes, silent cold. It filled him with joy instead of gloom. So too in this discussion, it is worth noting that God does indeed speak through natural reality all the time. Much of the Biblical pages cover the natural reality and reveal evidence of the natural senses at work. The difference is that with the Spirit, one’s senses perceive everything differently than the natural man. God opens the eyes to see!


Pilgrim, feel free to continue with your comments on how God illuminates our minds to understand his revelation, and I am going to carry on with the theme of how God does the opposite. The two belong together, after all. Judgment and mercy work together in God’s redemptive scheme. Without judgment, mercy has no meaning. Is that not correct?

P
pilgrim777

This is powerful imagery, Philip! Praise God for giving it to you, and for you sharing it!

As I see the vision, it illustrates our tendency to strive too hard, to become OVER- spiritual. It’s no less than the doctrine of works. It’s as if God isn’t enough. I can never appreciate what exists right now because it is not good enough. I can never accept God’s grace at work in me. I must top it up. This really is an issue of partial belief, is it not, like the man who was partially healed… like the disciples who themselves were trying hard to “help” Jesus out – resist his death and instead preserve the present glory in tents. To slow down can feel like death in itself. We surrender control. "

Some doctrines that people subscribe to, actually thrust them into a "perpetual works" mode, but the works are more FOR THEM to prove to themselves that they are indeed called, rather than emanating and originating from the Holy Spirit. The latter works proceed out of a life of REST while the former proceed out of a life of STRIFE. The former is a life of insecurity and that brings us to "hardening of the heart" once again.


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

How do you not come short of entering into His rest?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

The Word preached (or read) must be mixed with faith. Man's doctrines do not require faith and produce false assurance because man preaches "entitlement" of one kind or another based on ascending to his doctrines.

So, we see that one will not enter into rest because of unbelief and that unbelief is linked to the hardening of the heart which Jesus talks about and links for us in Mark 8 as well as other chapters.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Pilgrim

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pilgrim777

A comment on this:
Quote:
The Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to appraise spiritually.

From Diane:
"I might add the words, “and truthfully” to counteract the assumption that anything spiritual is from God. After all there is a dark spirit reality too – that masqueraders as the Light – and appears even MORE spiritual - especially for those eager to be spiritual .... but not particularly eager for God himself."

That is a very important distinction Diane. Jesus felt it necessary to tell us that the Holy Spirit would "lead us into all truth". Just because one is "spiritual" does not mean that one is walking in the light. We are even warned concerning "angels of light". Jesus was always contrasting truth with lies and did a great job of using the Pharisees constantly as real life object lessons to contrast what lies look like masquerading as the truth.

[quote Pilgrim, feel free to continue with your comments on how God illuminates our minds to understand his revelation, and I am going to carry on with the theme of how God does the opposite. The two belong together, after all. Judgment and mercy work together in God’s redemptive scheme. Without judgment, mercy has no meaning. Is that not correct?

Thank you Diane, This has been a delightful study.

Pilgrim

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roadsign

Undeniably, God blinds and hardens as an effect of divine judgment. Now we have another image that conveys the same idea: stones in the heart. Even here we cannot attribute the stones merely to the devil:


“He has barred my way with blocks of STONE” Lamentations 3:9 In other words, God has made himself inaccessible to his chosen people through divine judgment. It is an all-and-out blackout: “He shuts out my prayer.” :8

Isaiah says the same thing:

“He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah
he will be a STONE that causes people to stumble
and a ROCK that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem
he will be a trap and a snare.” Isaiah 8:14

God did it! Paul quotes from this verse in Romans 9:33
“See I lay in Zion a STONE that causes me to stumble
And a ROCK that makes them fall”

How is Christ a stumbling stone? I think we could apply the references to divine blinding/hardening, and so forth. After all, when you can’t see, you will stumble and fall – even over the One who has come to heal your sight. And now you resist him.

In recent days I have had various conversations in which it seemed that the way was nearly clear to speak precisely and deliberately about God. Yet at that very moment I would be silent. Then I'd kick myself for missing “opportunities”. It didn’t seem like an issue of fear; yet I knew I could have been wrong. So I asked God what was going on? He answered me: “Their hearts are hard.”

And I then realized that it was God who was silencing me. To be sure, these people had no interest in my God. Even when I mentioned “God”, I would receive a hasty explanation of their version of God - the “god” they had obviously put their faith in. What I was doing was actually helping them to reinforce their unbelief and feel even more righteous about it. They were hardening themselves even further. It's true that if someone does not want God, even our best message merely falls on stony ground.

God was reminding me that in presenting his truths, I am to be submitted to his timing. There is a time to be silent, and wait for him. That reminds me of a comment Art Katz made about the mess evangelicals have made in their evangelizing efforts – because they are doing it in their own steam, and not waiting on God. When it comes to stony hearts, we can’t play God and attempt amateur surgery. We cannot short-circuit God’s program of mercy:

“it does not therefore depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:16


Both believer and unbeliever are utterly dependent on God’s mercy. Meanwhile our most potent proof of God’s loving mercy is a life consistently submitted to Christ and to one another in love - lived out through our every day relationships. And our job is to deal with our own “stones”. (A nicer way of saying: Mind your own business.)


“Pass through, pass through the gates!
Prepare the way for the people.
Build up, build up the highway!
Remove the STONES.
Isaiah 62:10


“Sow to yourselves in righteousness,
reap in mercy;
break up your fallow ground:
for it is time to seek the LORD,
till he come and rain righteousness upon you.”
Hosea 10:12 KJV

Diane

R
roadsign

It seems time to regroup my thoughts on this theme of godly submission. I do so in light of the following words by Charles Finney:

“I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is proposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of views and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world. True Christian consistency does not consist in stereotyping our opinions and views, and in refusing to make any improvement lest we should be guilty of change, but it consists in holding our minds open to receive the rays of truth from every quarter and in changing our views and language and practice as often and as fast, as we can obtain further information.” Charles Finney

With that in mind, I would say that my reflection on godly submission has dislodged a number of “old views and opinions” – those which hinder the full blossoming of this beautiful, fragrant character quality. Note, I say “character quality” rather than “law” – because authentic godly submission is the outcome of the Spirit’s work rather than a “rules” mentality. Authentic godly submission will not grow and flourish when we have a habit of applying the Bible verses with a “rules” mentality. Godly submission is a character quality, and in that sense, it is a law of the Spirit just as much as a flower’s qualities are the effects of the laws of nature. Trying harder will never produce in you or me a more submissive quality of character.

“The mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” Rom. 8:6
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control” Gal. 6:22 This surely encapsulates the qualities of a submissive character.


To ponder further: What faulty mentalities ("stones") has God been exposing, even through this thread topic, so that you and I may become freer to grow in this character quality of godly submission toward one another?

Diane

R
roadsign

True Christian consistency does not consist in stereotyping our opinions and views, and in refusing to make any improvement lest we should be guilty of change, but it consists in holding our minds open to receive the rays of truth from every quarter and in changing our views and language and practice as often and as fast, as we can obtain further information.” Charles Finney


I return to Finney's exhortation – and I see it pointing us back to this thread theme: our moral obligations to one another.

As I ponder over how we talk to each other - what we say and what we do NOT say - I keep seeing our collective blind spot: a deficiency in our sense of moral obligation to one another. Is that not true even for our recent themes – like “doom and gloom”? Wouldn’t you agree that we have a difficult time relating our themes to our moral calling?

In the matters of societal trouble and disaster, I watch folk (including my husband) involved in planning strategies for helping victims. Yet amongst ourselves, in our Christian talk, we seem quite preoccupied about preserving our personal righteousness and, as Finney says, “stereotyping our opinions and views”. Well … that’s my broad sweeping perception, and I include myself. But that’s not what Christianity is mostly about (remember that token “cup of water” offered to the thirsty).

We know that our calling is to love real people - those who are in our lives (that is, our neighbor) by aiming to advance their well being. We are called to stir one another as believers to love and good deeds - which, as I discussed a few pages back, involve our offerings of goodness to one another. If we can't do this well for each other, how can we expect to do it well for the "heathen"?


The challenge, as I see it, is this: How can I move beyond my self-focused brand of faith. It’s not just about me! How can I obey the calling, “FEED MY SHEEP?” In other words, how do I offer myself in submission to others – that they may be nurtured with the Living Bread?

Looking over the “fields” of our own society, it is obvious that “the harvest is plentiful”. Yet the workers are few! I wonder: What paradigm shift in thinking is required to bump us Christians out of our culturally shaped individualistic view of Christianity?

We call on God to nudge us beyond our own conceptual paradigms and awaken our collective moral consciousness on these matters. He can do it! PTL!

Diane

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roadsign

I can’t resist pasting the following quote taken from an ongoing thread (“Legalism”) This is most insightful. It says what I’m thinking – but more succinctly:

…. however our problem today is we do not know what true love is anymore . We believe it is similar to some type of affection that does not include being subject to a higher authority. Basically we are self-sufficient, and would never give up our own understanding, which is the part in us that terms the word 'legalism'….
By a-servant


In other words, to the extent that we fail to love each other as God requires, and to the extent that we sense no moral guilt over it, we are legalists: Our conscience is abiding according to our own law-code. We are our highest authority.

Is this not reflective of harden-ness in our hearts (dulling of conscience)?

R
roadsign

I cannot rejoin the forum at this time, however, I stop by momentarily. This thread was brought to mind through an email dialogue. Also, presently I am working on the theme of forgiveness – preparing a Bible study series. It is apparent to me that Christian submission is essentially synonymous with forgiveness. It’s about the way we treat sinners - even our “enemy”. (Remember, forgiveness is not the same as absolving.)

Jonah was not a forgiving kind of person as is evident in his attitude towards the Ninevites. He lacked the heart of God. God pointed that out to him saying, “Should I not be concerned about this great city.” Jonah had been more concerned about himself, and he would have rather seen all of the Assyrians rot in hell, then to and live among them, with empathy for their lostness (“They cannot tell their right hand from their left”).

Jonah chose to live outside the city – separate from the people – far away from any tedious involvement in their lives, far away from the opportunity to extend practical acts of mercy to the people -ie, submit to them.

But note, God continued to have mercy on Jonah (the fish, the vine...) God used Jonah to be an instrument of divine mercy, nevertheless. What does that imply about our own attitude towards the Jonah's around us (or in us)?


It’s natural to be like Jonah – stand far off from a person or a people group and talk about them with words of condemnation and judgment – as if we are better than them. And we have little empathy for them. We’d rather extricate ourselves from them and not put ourselves in a position where we can understand them, have compassion, or offer them the gifts of grace and goodness.

When we consider the harmful effects which unforgiveness has on our physical and emotional well-being – like anger, bitterness, health problems, etc we can see that forgiveness is essentially synonymous with loving yourself - as in the Great Commandment to love God and your neighbor as yourself.

By being a forgiving person we love ourself as one made in the image of God, forgiven and loved by him, and destined for a high calling: to advance the kingdom of God. When we are forgiving people - free from resentment, filled with humility and empathy - we are available to share the nature of God - to give of ourselves unreservedly as an agent of God’s mercy in a fallen world.

Through forgiveness we open the way for others, as well as ourselves, to be reconciled with God. It is the way we advance the Kingdom of God in a sinful world.

“Thy kingdom come…. Forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors”.

Examples of forgiving (merciful) people:
King David (see Ps. 51), The Apostle Paul (compare him with Jonah during their sea storm experiences) , The Good Samaritan, etc. Joseph, son of Jacob…
These people knew the meaning of Christian submission.

God bless you all, and may he work in you to make you instruments of his mercy, ministers of reconciliation through your life of humble submission.

Diane

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