Menu

Can anyone prove heaven is our eternal home?

N
njhoover

The closest scripture I can find to the saints being in heaven (not the same as living/residing in heaven mind you) is in Revelation.

I've always been taught that the elect "go to heaven" immediately after death. I can't find much scripture supporting that either.

Rev. 6:9-11

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then they were each given a white robe and TOLD TO REST a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

Notice the slain saints are not walking around in heaven. They are told to REST a little longer.

Rev. 15:2

"And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire-and also THOSE WHO HAD CONQUERED the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps in their hands."

This is AFTER the tribulation (after the 2nd coming).

Rev. 7:9-10

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands"

Rev. 7:13-14 describes who they are (when they are)

"Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes and from where have they come? I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'THESE ARE THE ONES COMING OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. They have washed their clothes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Post-tribulation saints...

Rev. 7:15 describes their role

"Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence."

And where will the throne be?

Rev. 20:4-5

"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

So I guess I have a few questions:

1. Can anyone show where the Bible says we will live in heaven with God (or that anyone else who has lived in an earthly body is currently in heaven).

2. What is the point of the "resurrection of the righteous" if we can just instantly beam to heaven when we die? ("flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 15:50)

3 What is the point of a judgement if the wicked are automatically thrown into punishment after death (as so many teach)?

Thanks!

C
Christinyou

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Do you believe?

The answer to your question is no it cannot be proved, it takes faith, "by this you know that you have eternal life"

1 John 5:10-15 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Ask for assurance.

In Christ: Phillip

N
njhoover

Christinyou - I do believe and I have assurance.

I did not mean to discuss salvation but rather WHERE salvation will be lived out and WHEN we will receive the inheritance.

And by proof, I mean evidence in the scripture (I'm not trying to be Thomas here).

S
sermonindex


Can anyone prove heaven is our eternal home?

Yes!

God!

Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; For we are also His offspring.

God is heaven!

S
sermonindex

"WHEN we will receive the inheritance."

As if we deserve such a thing. I personally don't deserve any inheritance nor do I expect it. Whether I get it or not makes no never mind, what is important is that we make it.

If God decides to give us something, hey, thats great, but as lowly creatures and creatures that can easily be wiped off the face of the earth by a thought, I would be most grateful if I just get through the door. As ole Peter said, "If the righteous scarcely be saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear".

But God who is rich in mercy has made us kings and priests in His kingdom and caused us to sit with Him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, not by the will of man but by the will of God who saved us.

As for the inheritance, you should be receiving a portion of it now and a portion of it later. Part of that inheritance is the promise of the Holy Spirit and all what that entails.


S
sermonindex


Heaven after death -

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,
Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Php 1:23,24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


At His Return, we're given our resurrected bodies, as His. 1Corth15

We rule and reign with Him on earth for the 1000 yrs.

After which, all the dead are raised for judgment = "the second death".

After which - the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and there's a new heaven and new earth.

I assume, with our celestial bodies, that we could visit both without much problem or distance between the two as we know now - if there's any distance at all at that point.

P
pilgrim777

njhoover,

You start to live out/walk out your salvation the moment you are born-again and the Spirit of God is given to you as an "earnest of your inheritance".

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13-14

'Earnest' there is from the Greek word 'Arrabon' - this is Gk. word No 728 in Strong's Concordance system. The meaning is 'pledge' or 'part of the full purchase money – or property – given in advance as security that the full amount will indeed be paid.'

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2Co 1:21-22

S
sermonindex


Hi again njhoover. I think the mix up is that you are seeing those in Rev 7 as 'after' the tribulation - but that is only during the 6th Seal - the 7th Seal brings the 7 trumpets and the tribulation ends with the 7th or Last Trumpet.

The "wrath of GOD" comes with the Vials - it says so enough times in chpt 15 & 16.

The Saints that are seen in Heaven in Chpt 7 are those who are 'killed' as their brethren were, [chpt 6] who you see being told to 'rest' until that number be fulfilled. [Rev 20:4-6]

For those who believe we're caught up to "meet Him in the AIR" at the "last [7th] trump", as Paul said - the last trump is not blown until 11:15.

What I find interesting is, during the 6th Vial, we read ...
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


R
roadsign

From Hebrews 11
vs 1 “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.”

vs 6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”


Such magnificent realities of God cannot be measured (or proven) by our natural and rational senses. There is no “objective” proof for one in a state of unbelief. We come to know as we accept this by faith – through a life of surrendered trust in our God.

By the time one can "prove" it (ie for a skeptic), it's too late - wouldn't you say?

Diane


S
sermonindex

I think this says it all:

2 Corithians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23 "I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."

Clearly Paul believed and wrote (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, therefore these are God's words) that when he died he would leave this body and be with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In Heaven.

Krispy

H
Heydave

How about this one in Hebrews:

Hbr 12:23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
12:24 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The heavenly Jerusalem, where the Church of The Firstborn (Jesus) are!.

Also Ephesians tells us that we have ALRAEDY been raised up and are seated in Christ in the heaven.

Eph 2:6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

So When we leave this mortal life we just catch up to where we already belong. Like going home we say! Like an ambassador who serves and lives in a foreign country, when we retire we go back to our heavenly home. Praise God!

L
Lysa


The following doesn't sound like we are going to be in heaven but on the earth reigning with our King!....

• To him that OVERCOMETH will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2.7)

• He that OVERCOMETH shall not be hurt of the second death. (Rev 2.11)

• To him that OVERCOMETH will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. (Rev 2.17)

• He that OVERCOMETH and keepeth my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Rev 2.26)

• He that OVERCOMETH the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3.5)

• Him that OVERCOMETH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 3.12)

• To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3.21).

• He that OVERCOMETH shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev 21.7)

God bless,
Lisa

PS: A good book that goes into great detail about this is "The Crucible and the Crown." Used at amazon.com it's 3.99 + 3.99 s/h.
http://www.amazon.com/Crucible-Crown-Church-Tribulation/dp/0967354803/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1320769786&sr=8-4

M
MikeH

Well, I can prove it isn´t, does that help? :-)

"Rev 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

It seems clear from the end of Revelation that our 'eternal' home will be the new Earth and God will dwell amongst us. What that new earth will be like, is probably impossible to imagine, especially as we consider what the Lord appeared like at the beginning of Revelation. Both Jerusalem and the Bride are pictures of the church, so this picture is very clear.

I have focussed on your word 'eternal' and the time from Rev 21 onwards is clear. Until then, there is perhaps more to debate.

Kind regards
Mike

S
sermonindex

Where are our fence riding friends to proove it's both??

Krispy

N
njhoover

I made a bo-bo using the word "inheritance." I know we receive part of our inheritance in part when we become followers of Christ.

The main reason I started this thread is because I have a concept of where we live out eternity and I wanted to see if people much wiser than I am could shoot holes in it.

From my understanding of the scriptures, the ONLY time we go to heaven is immediately following the resurrection of the righteous. Then we spend the rest of the time (1) reigning on earth with Christ in the millennium and (2) living with him and the Father in New Jerusalem on the new earth.

S
sermonindex

There's nobody claiming to be "wiser" than you here but Paul did say twice, that to be "absent from the body is to be present with the LORD" [present tense] and the thief on the cross next to Jesus was told, "Today shall you be With Me in Paradise". Understood your question right off and answered with those verses on the first page - but if ya want to wait until we're given our glorified bodies to see Heaven, if you die before that day - you'll have to take that up with HIM. :)

Shalom!

G
ginnyrose

Jesus tells us in John 14 that in his Father's house are many mansions and that he goes to prepare a place for us. SO, where that physical location is matters not to me. I just know it will exceed our most wonderful imagination and that is good enough for me. :-)

Does a saint get there upon death? Good question! Since I am unsure what will happen to the spirit upon the body's decease, I just know that it belongs to God and he will take good care of it. :-)

I love the fact there will be no sin in heaven, nor anything that makes a lie. The weather will be perfect...no floods or hurricanes or tornadoes, or tears..it just will be wonderful. If we believe this why do we allow so many stupid things distract us from our goal? (And what is meant by stupid? I will let you decide - I suspect its identity will differ amongst us all.)

N
njhoover

The problem I have with using 2 Corinthians 5:8 to support an instantaneous heaven dwelling is 1 Corinthians 15:50 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

That says to me, without our imperishable bodies, we cannot inhabit the kingdom of God.


As for Luke 23:43, there's no way the verse means the thief would be with Jesus THAT day in heaven.

The ESV translates the passage as, "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'"

Notice the placement of the comma. It indicates the translator's assumption that the thief went immediately to heaven with Jesus. In the Greek, there are no such punctuation marks to indicate this is the case.

John 20:17 says, "Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'’”

And John 3:13 says, "NO ONE HAS ASCENDED into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Therefore, it is impossible for the thief to have been in heaven that day - regardless of whether you think we go to heaven instantly after death.

S
sermonindex

The problem I have with using 2 Corinthians 5:8 to support an instantaneous heaven dwelling is 1 Corinthians 15:50 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be *absent from the body*, and to be present with the Lord.

Why would anyone think that if we died tonight, that we wouldn't be "present with The LORD"?


njhoover, just wondering if you believe in "soul sleep"?


I would wonder 'where' Elijah and Enoch took off 'to'.

I would wonder - Did Jesus have to 'wake up' Moses and Elijah to appear on the Mount with Him in front of His disciples.

I also wonder why you would think that The Saints in Rev 7 are those 'after the Coming of The LORD and after the resurrection' and not in Heaven - when this is still the period of the sixth seal - before the 7 trumpets are given to the 7 angels... if you're post-trib.

S
sermonindex

brother (or sister?) Hoov, i havent read any of the thread, or much of your post, save the three questions...i mean no offense by that.....but you know what? just my personal testimony, i've gotten to where my dependence, my faith, my love in God, and for God, has gotten so child like, that in the watches of my heart, i just cling to Him like a child, and have no fears, or doubts about the Working of Jesus in me and thru me, Hebrews 13 is a great chapter to eat of, "the New Jerusalem"...sometimes i can almost "see" it.....

i'm sorry if i didnt satisfy you with that answer, but lets pray what the disciples prayed aloud to Jesus, "Increase our Faith!"...in Jesus' love, neil

S
sermonindex

no offense to anyone, but i just skimmed thru some of the posts...and i say this in UTTER LOVE, but it really boils down to this...either you believe God.......or not.

you are in dependence of Him....or not.

you either fear Him in love and reverential awe......or not.

either you know that the Blood of Jesus cleanses all sin....or not.

either God the Holy Ghost has released you from the bonds of death, that is the fear of death, the grip of it..............or not.

one of my favorite Verses is when Jesus is talking with Nicodemus, in John 3, i'll use the KJV in humility for my breathern:

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit". John 3 and 8 Red Letters.

i love that Verse, and if anyone thinks i'm speaking of "easy believism"..or "simply believism", i have too many buckets of tears hidden in the cisterns of my heart, to know that i that know IN Him, that isnt true.

But God is true, Jesus is Real, so...let the Wind blow where It may, neil

N
njhoover

Neil, I agree with you somewhat. I think you can believe God, be dependent on Him, in love and reverential awe, know that the Blood of Jesus cleanses all sin and be released from the bonds of death AND still be interested in questions like "do we go immediately to heaven when we die or not" etc...

"2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be *absent from the body*, and to be present with the Lord.

Why would anyone think that if we died tonight, that we wouldn't be "present with The LORD"?"

I think people read too much into this passage. If "soul-sleep" is what occurs to saints and sinners immediately after death, then the first thing you will experience after you die (as a saint) will be Christ. Thus: to be away from the body is to be with Christ. Once you have left your earthly body, the next conscious event you experience is to be with Christ.

"njhoover, just wondering if you believe in "soul sleep"?

I would wonder 'where' Elijah and Enoch took off 'to'.

I would wonder - Did Jesus have to 'wake up' Moses and Elijah to appear on the Mount with Him in front of His disciples.

I also wonder why you would think that The Saints in Rev 7 are those 'after the Coming of The LORD and after the resurrection' and not in Heaven - when this is still the period of the sixth seal - before the 7 trumpets are given to the 7 angels... if you're post-trib."

Jesus-is-GOD, yes I do believe in soul sleep as is supported by the Old Testament belief in Sheol as well as 1 Corinthians 15:51 and Acts 7:60.

Enoch and Elijah can be explained by John 3:13 ("No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.") and 2 Corinthians 12:2 ("I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN"). There are 3 heavens: the sky (1), outer space (2), God's abode (3). I think Enoch and Elijah are in one of the first 2.

I believe the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration can be explained as a vision. It may be the partial fulfillment of Luke 9:27 / Matthew 16:28 ("some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"). The other fulfillment being John's Revelation.

Just because the saints appear in heaven in Revelation 7:14 - seemingly before the coming of the Lord - does not these scenes are in chronological order. For instance: the plagues of the Seven Bowls (15:1-16:21) may be a retelling of the plagues of the Seven Trumpets (Rev 8:1-11:19). Notice what the elder says to John, "These are they which CAME OUT of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The passage does not make it clear whether the saints which came out of the tribulation are slowly trickling in (as you suppose) or are the grand sum of saints following the second coming of Christ (as I believe).

Yes, I believe Christ will come after the tribulation.

S
sermonindex

Neil, I agree with you somewhat.

"somewhat"?!?......"SOMEWHAT?!?"

no! you have to agree with me in total, lock stock and barrel!

...i'm teasing.

my dear brother, lets reason together...i feel, and i'm not directing this towards you specifically, but sownetimes i feel we get wrapped up in head knowledge....and that might be a trap. Mind you, i'm not speaking of being anti-intelectual, whether it be secular knowledge or Scriptural knowledge.....no no no.

i have the luxury of being able to be IN the Word everyday, for extended periods, and as God has given me the Grace, and the Holy Spirit, i get to turn OFF my head, and light up my soul and spirit to "eat" of This Word. If thats seem boasting, its boasting in the Lord.

and one thing that God has impressed upon me is to never argue His Word with another, this doctrine or that doctrine, i feel we as the Body of Christ crawl off into rabbit holes indulging in such, but then again, we have this treasure in jars of clay, and it seems man delights in such exercises, which swings me back around to what Paul said when he said, i resolved to only know Christ and Him crucified, when i'm among you.

so Hoov, this is just me, and i pray you push thru to whatever pasture you seek, but as for me, i know that i know that i know, i am His, i belong to Jesus, in that i have no doubt. my soul is in His Hands, and that is MORE than good enough for me, much love, keep pressing, neil

S
sermonindex

Hi again Brother, I just put a few of your sentences in double quotation marks below ...


""("No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.")""

Not until He rose and brought them up with Him.


""Just because the saints appear in heaven in Revelation 7:14 - seemingly before the coming of the Lord - does not these scenes are in chronological order. For instance: the plagues of the Seven Bowls (15:1-16:21) may be a retelling of the plagues of the Seven Trumpets (Rev 8:1-11:19).""


If you wrote out what happens with each Seal, Trumpet and Vial, you'll see that they are not the same events. That they don't even over-lap - most especially the Seals and the Trumpets.


""I believe the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration can be explained as a vision. It may be the partial fulfillment of Luke 9:27 / Matthew 16:28 ("some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom").""

They stood and spoke with Jesus. A vision is not taking His Word at face value on what happened there and the "some standing 'here'" would have nothing to do with Moses and Elijah, as Moses had tasted death.


""yes I do believe in soul sleep""

I believe the following disproves soul-sleep also.


After the 4 horses/horsemen [the first 4 Seals], comes ....

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened *the fifth seal*, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 **And white robes** were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, **until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they** were, should be *fulfilled*.


They're told to Rest [not sleep] Until their fellowservants should be killed As They were is fulfilled.

Sometime during the Sixth Seal ...

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, **clothed with white robes**

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? , and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


The *Resting* time for those in the White Robes in Chpt 6 ends when all that will be killed, are killed - just as He promised those under His Altar .

So, my conclusion is that the Saints in Chpt 6 and 7 are in Heaven and this is who they are 'with' and what they're all doing, once that number to be killed is 'fulfilled' - then they raise their voices with praise with the angels, the four beasts and the 24 elders who we first see in Heaven in Chpt 4 ...

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the *angels* stood round about the throne, and about *the elders* [Rev 4:4,10] and *the four beasts*, [*Rev 5:5-14*] and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

We could ask who these 24 elders are that have their own thrones and crowns. Some reasonably say they are 12 O.T. patriarchs and the 12 Apostles. I could see that.

If you do a Search in the Revelation for the word "altar" and you'll see it's in Heaven before the Throne in 6:9 - 8:3-5 - 9:13 - 14:18 - 16:7 and is where the Angels also 'come out from' --- making 'the altar' in Heaven so all of the white robed Saints are in Heaven as well, Praising GOD, after those who are to be killed is 'fulfilled' and with the Angels, the Twenty-four Elders [11:16; 19:4]] and the Four Beasts [Rev 4:6-8; 14:3] Praising GOD.

According to all of the above - 'all that will be killed' are in Heaven - and is accomplished before the first trumpet.


The Seventh Seal brings the 7 Angels that are given the 7 Trumpets - [No 'over-lapping' of Seals and Trumpets, according to these two verses ..]


Rev 8:1,2 And when he had opened *the seventh seal*, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets ... Etc. etc..


The rest of the Saints will be "alive and survive" [He shortens the time so that some flesh can survive] when He Returns with these "ten thousands of His Saints" that were praising Him in Heaven with the four and twenty elders and the four beasts and the Angels. Those that remain alive, meet them in the Air and then, we'll rule and reign with Him on earth for the 1000 yrs and then the new earth and the new Heaven and the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven and the rest is an indescribable Eternity. :)


I do not believe in "soul sleep". I believe to be absent from the body is to be immediately with The LORD in Heaven.


I like what I see through His Word and it's not that important to try to change your view on "soul sleep".

If I see you sleeping up there, I'll wake you up :)

Multiple Blessings to you!!

N
njhoover

Jesus-is-GOD I think you did a pretty good job at shooting down my proof-texts but I'm curious as to how you would explain the need for the resurrection of the righteous at all.

If we go to heaven immediately and receive our imperishable bodies right away then why resurrect our dead bodies at all? It seems pointless to me. They're just old useless bones and dust! Clearly if we're in heaven, there's no need to bring our sleeping/dead/resting/Sheol-dwelling souls to life either. Therefore, since neither body nor soul requires resurrection, the resurrection is not necessary!

We know that this is not the case as 1 Corinthians 15:13 says, "IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised."

A progressive resurrection of the righteous is not possible as 1 Corinthians 15:52 makes clear: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED."

These dead are raised and (then and only then) raised imperishable.

This trumpet can only be associated with Christ's return (each saint who dies isn't treated to a trumpet):

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE first: then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

I see a progression in that passage: trump > dead in Christ rise.

If the saints are already in heaven at the second coming and accompany Christ to earth, why does the text call them "dead" and why would they possibly need to "rise?" They're already (quite literally) risen and they have already received IMPERISHABLE bodies!

Just stuff to think about.

S
sermonindex

Hia njhoover!

No, I don't believe we receive our glorified body at our death, as Christ's was, after He ascended to the Father and then returned to talk to his men.

I believe that our spirits ascend to Heaven but then at the 1st resurrection - we receive our glorified bodies, not before.

Jude says that He's returning with 10 thousands of His Saints. I believe that they are "the dead in Christ" that are coming With Him and we're all transformed at that time, into our glorified bodies that can be on earth and rule and reign with Him here over the humans that He allows to go through the millenium and not be destroyed with those that took the mark, or worshipped the beast or the number of his name or his image.

GOD is Spirit and He definitely can see and talk to us in our spirit form in Heaven. We only need those glorified bodies to deal with the humans left for the millenial period.

The New Jerusalem does not have to be a "tangible" place, once we "are like Him". He can be invisible, or walk through walls, as He did after His resurrection. I don't think GOD needs us to be in a glorified body to have us worship in spirit before His Throne Up There.
I know the language can sound confusing and make it appear that there's no one in Heaven now - but it's just my belief that there are Saints in Heaven that will receive that same glorified body like our LORD did after His resurrection.

What amazes me is that the only ones mentioned that are "ruling and reigning for the 1000 yrs" are those mentioned in Rev 20:4-6. Now that's something to really think about.

Blessings to you & yours!!!

N
njhoover

Jesus-is-GOD you have an interesting take and I cannot deny you've divided the word to arrive at your position.

As for Jude: most translations do not use the word "saints" to describe the 10 thousands that come with Christ. Instead most translations opt for "holy ones" (see for your self: http://bible.cc/jude/1-14.htm). Notably the KJV translates the word as "saints." I would argue that just like how Luke 23:45 is usually translated as "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise," with the comma before today indicating he was with Christ THAT DAY. The same is true for Jude 1:14 - the translation reflects the theological understanding (bias) of the translator.

The word used in Jude 1:14 is hagios which literally translates as set apart, holy or sacred. I would argue this means they are angels. This interpretation agrees with Matthew 25:31 ("When the Son of Man comes in his glory, AND ALL THE ANGELS WITH HIM..."). This doesn't completely shoot down your interpretation that they're saints, but just be aware of the ambiguous vocabulary.

"I know the language can sound confusing and make it appear that there's no one in Heaven now."

I don't think the language is confusing, but it's just a mater of interpretation I guess.

As for New Jerusalem - I think the fact that John saw it coming out of heaven (Rev. 21:2) is evidence enough that it's a tangible place.

I know Revelation 20:4-6 is pretty specific about who will be reigning, but given all Paul says about the first resurrection indicates to me that it will be these beheaded saints IN ADDITION to the rest of the "dead in Christ" who will reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Thanks for your time and insights.

S
sermonindex


Hi. Your take is interesting as well. I suppose that's the best that we can both say about each other's views :)

The passage Jude is quoting, as found in “the Book of Enoch” is in these words: “Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal, for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done and committed against him,” chapter ii. Bib. Repository, vol. xv. p. 86.


I try to read His Word as it's written and as literally as a child would. I suppose you would say the same.

See you when we see Him! Maranatha.

N
njhoover

Again: the translation reflects the translator's bias. H.R. Charles translates that same word as "holy ones."

Just remember: the Bible IS inerrant, but our TRANSLATIONS are just that - translations. Keep this in mind when you read the word like a child.

S
sermonindex

Just remember: the Bible IS inerrant, but our TRANSLATIONS are just that - translations. Keep this in mind when you read the word like a child.

So in other words what we have today... we dont know if we can trust it because it may not be accurate?

Krispy

E
Earendel

We are here on this Earth in the flesh, but we will ascend into the heavenlies in a glorified body, and sit on the very Throne of God Himself, even as it is written in Revelation 3:21 that we should.

Even the Apostle John did not know what we would become...think about that one.

Did the Apostle John not write to us and say: Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed WHAT we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we SHALL BE like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

And John was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration and saw Jesus glorified...but he says what we are to become has not yet been revealed.

You see, what satan tried to steal away from God, God freely gives to us His elect saints, and this truly drives him insanely mad with such vile loathe and putrid hatred/vitriol.

And to which of these angels did God ever say “sit on my throne”?

... but The Lord Jesus tells us if we overcome the world, we will sit on His throne even as He overcame and is sat down on His Fathers throne.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:21&version=NKJV

The throne of God is in Heaven.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""So in other words what we have today... we dont know if we can trust it because it may not be accurate?"""

So, ask the Holy Spirit to confirm truth.

He will give us all truth, even truth we don't understand, and make it understandable.

In Christ: Phillip

N
njhoover

"So in other words what we have today... we dont know if we can trust it because it may not be accurate?"

If the translations were inerrant we could just throw away the Greek Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures because what would be the use?

"The throne of God is in Heaven."

Yeah it's in heaven NOW. Scriptures are clear, we will be ruling with Christ on earth for the millennium AND THEN WHAT?

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God..." (Rev. 21:2)

And:

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev 21:22)

So God will dwell on earth.

No heavenly abode required for the saints to sit on the throne of God.

S
sermonindex


Well, that's good then. So can you see yet, that the Saints in Rev 6 & 7 are in Heaven and not asleep?

Your Verse - "And I saw **no temple therein**: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev 21:22)


Those in chpt 7 - Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His *TEMPLE*: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Remember that this is during the 6th Seal and the 7th Seal brings about the 7 angels with the Trumpets and at the last/7th Trump we're given our glorified bodies / resurrected.


I don't know why I'm on this thread :) This belief of yours won't keep you Out of Heaven. Normally, only things that are a salvation-issue or salvation-threateners get my interest up.


I wanted to bring this one thing up - to quote you ...

Just remember: the Bible IS inerrant, but our TRANSLATIONS are just that - translations. Keep this in mind when you read the word like a child.

"hagios"

saints, 60

Mat_27:52, Act_9:13, Act_9:32, Act_9:41, Act_26:10, Rom_1:7, Rom_8:27, Rom_12:13, Rom_15:25-26 (2), Rom_15:31, Rom_16:2, Rom_16:15, 1Co_1:2, 1Co_6:1-2 (2), 1Co_14:33, 1Co_16:1, 1Co_16:15, 2Co_1:1, 2Co_8:4, 2Co_9:1, 2Co_13:12-13 (2), Eph_1:1, Eph_1:15, Eph_2:18-19 (2), Eph_3:8, Eph_3:18, Eph_4:12, Eph_5:3, Eph_6:18, Phi_1:1, Phi_4:22, Col_1:2, Col_1:4, Col_1:12, Col_1:26, 1Th_3:13, 2Th_1:10, Phm_1:5, Phm_1:7, Heb_6:10, Heb_13:24, Jud_1:3, Jud_1:14, Rev_5:8, Rev_8:3-4 (2), Rev_11:18, Rev_13:7, Rev_13:10, Rev_14:12, Rev_15:3, Rev_17:6 (2), Rev_18:24, Rev_20:8-9 (2)

saint, 1

Phi_4:20-21 (2)

saints’, 1

1Ti_5:10


It appears the translators mis-interpreted hagios an awful lot.


Last night I was reading these sections of Scripture that also could be for your consideration regarding 'soul sleep' ...

2Kings 2:11 - Elijah taken to Heaven.

Eph 3:14,15 - Whole family in Heaven.

Luke 16:19-31 - A place of consciousness.


I'm thinking this may have gotten my attention because, some of us have REALLY looked forward to be absent from our bodies and being present with The LORD, more sooner than later.

GOD Bless you too!

N
njhoover

"Well, that's good then. So can you see yet, that the Saints in Rev 6 & 7 are in Heaven and not asleep?"

No, I still don't think you're right.

"Your Verse - "And I saw **no temple therein**: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev 21:22)"

I interpret this verse as referring to the post-millennium service of the saints, where there is no temple.

"Those in chpt 7 - Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His *TEMPLE*: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

I believe this verse refers to the saints' service in the third temple, described in Ezekiel and yet to be built, during the millennium.


"2Kings 2:11 - Elijah taken to Heaven."

Again, there are 3 heavens and it was impossible for anyone to go to heaven before Christ was risen (John 3:13).

"Eph 3:14,15 - Whole family in Heaven."

I don't think it's far fetched to say this refers to the angels (family in heaven) and men (family on earth).

"Luke 16:19-31 - A place of consciousness."

This is a parable - the purpose of which is to teach a lesson. If you assume the characters in this parable are real, you must also assume the characters in every parable are real from the wedding virgins to the vineyard owner.

The story's purpose is not to provide a literal description of what happens immediately after death, but as a lesson to the Israelites (rich man) of their fate for rejecting the covenant and God's adoption of the Gentiles (Lazarus, whose name means "he whom God helps").

Jesus-is-GOD you stated you believe we are disembodied spirits before the second coming of Christ either in heaven or hell (if my understanding of what you said is correct).
If this is true, why would the rich man need to lift up his EYES (Luke 16:23) or need water on his TONGUE (16:24). Why would Lazarus have a FINGER to dip in cool water?

Do we have spirit eyes, tongues and fingers?


Thanks for challenging me. I hope you don't think I'm hard headed for not agreeing with your interpretation of scriptures.

C
CHILDofGRACE

Njhoover I love making it simple and short. My stand is on this: I'll rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. I guess yours will be to be absent from the body and sleeping in the dust waiting His return. Stephen saw something. When he was about to leave his body, he saw where he was headed and he prayed Christ to receive his spirit. Christ stood to do just that. I guess you don't sit to welcome relatives when they come visiting. You sit when the person is not welcomed. John saw the visions of heaven. It was one of the brethren, departed faithful soul that carried him about in heaven and even rebuked him when he tried to worship him. Maybe that was HOSEA or Isaiah or Zacharias. And don't bother about what the greek says, this brother that took John around in heaven will surely be one of the Saints coming wit Christ to rule. Love you. Thats my stand beloved.

C
Christinyou

If the Spirit of Christ is in us and is joined to our soul by the promised Holy Spirit, when we die does the spirit of Christ die and the Holy Spirit also, for we are His Temple? The body must die for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, unless resurrected or it must be changed in the twinkling of an eye, either way we are eternally with the Lord, then and only then in body.

In Christ: Phillip

A
ArtB

HezWelling on 2011/11/9 wrote:

"you are in dependence of Him....or not."

I am dependent on Him.

"you either fear Him in love and reverential awe......or not."

I have reverential awe toward God, but I do not fear God, for love cast out all fear. I love Him and He me.

1 JOHn 4:15-5:1
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. THERE IS NO FEAR IN LOVE, BUT PERFECT LOVE CASTE OUT FEAR, BECAUSE FEAR INVOLVES PUNISHMENT, AND THE ONE WHO FEARS IS NOT PERFECTED IN LOVE. We love, because He first loved us. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also. (NASU)


HezWelling WROTE: "either you know that the Blood of Jesus cleanses all sin....or not."

Yes, Jesus atoning blood has cleansed me of all my sins for all time.


HezWelling WROTE: "either God the Holy Ghost has released you from the bonds of death, that is the fear of death, the grip of it..............or not."

Yes, the Holy Spirit has released me from the bonds of death. And to Make this part clear, I reference Ephesians 4-12

4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God knew us, and chose us, before He created the foundation of the world [cosmos], that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

And this God freely bestowed upon us in Jesus.

7. In HIM we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

It's a gift to us, well planned out before time.

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him,

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

According to God's timing and plan etc.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God's will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we (Christians) believed Jesus's message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus pledge (i.e. Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus's acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

Here is a more literal translation of Eph 1:14

"[from verse 13 - our being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise = which in verse 14] is the pledge (from the Greek meaning - part of the purchase property given in advance as security for the rest) of our inheritance until the redemption of the acquisition.

Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, He sealed us as His possession by giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit, and He will give us our great inheritance when He redeems His acquisition of us at His 2nd coming.

Which means; We are already saved, sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in each Christian and our Helper and advocate, we are heaven bound, and none can take us from Jesus hand. We have already obtained rights to entering into the Kingdom when Jesus returns for us, and He will bring us into the Kingdom. God created the Kingdom at the same time He created the Cosmos. He sent us into the Cosmos to purify and refine us to do the good that HE desires us to do, and He predestined us to enter the Kingdom.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 38 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate