CHRISTMAS -Pagan Holiday #1

hi, if God has lead you to not celebrate christmas then do not celebrate it.if God has led you to call him yahweh then go ahead. if God has lead some to call him abba as most orthodox jews do, so be it.... abraham did not build an ark because God did not tell him to do so.if God has told you to live in the old covenant mixing grace with law then i will pray for your soul.gal 5 and 6 shows me that the law is the leaven that leavens the whole lump and removes all the power of grace over an individual.that is why what soever is not of faith is sin.we are saved by the FINISHED work of Jesus on the cross.that is a period.jimp

Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. Celebrating His birthday is as unscriptural as, for instance, Infant Baptism, to name one of the many manmade religious customs.

The date of December 25 to celebrate Christ’s birth was chosen to conform to the old, pagan Roman holidays called "Saturnalia" and "Brumalia." I think everyone knows this by now.

Debating this with anyone but a sincere, Reborn, Truth-loving follower of Jesus (that is bound up in this deception), is pointless.

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Math 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.'

you attack many jock ,assuming that people who celabrate christ birth day ,are not reborn ,truth followeres ,

your words are full of pride

I find no evidence in scripture that God has forbidden His followers from having a day that they recall the incredible event of Jesus incarnation. It seems more in line with His past revelations that we WOULD have such a season. A time of reflection that forces us to stop and recount the majesty and mystery of God humbling Himself to the point of taking on flesh and living among his creation.

Certainly most here realize that Jesus was not born on December 25. It is indeed an arbitrary date. However, it does give us a time to bring clarity to ourselves and the world about that tremendous event at Bethlehem.

A Christmas day, or season, also gives light to the idea that we all come to that babe in Bethlehem with blood on our hands. That innocent baby we picture in the feed trough is here ultimately for one reason... to be butchered because of, and for, our sins.

I fail to see any scripture that would forbid me from taking a time to put special emphasis and focus on this central event of the Christian faith.

Christmas is a good thing... if we use it wisely and well.

Blessings

brothagary - I think you misunderstood me .... I hope.

Quote- I find no evidence in scripture that God has forbidden His followers from having a day that they recall the incredible event of Jesus incarnation.

When YOU allocate a specific day of the year to recall/reflect on/put special emphasis on, the incarnation, you are acting on your own initiative, and going beyond the Sacraments mandated by Scripture i.e. Baptism, Communion and Marriage.

Also, the way I see it, the Incarnation took place when Mary conceived in her womb, and not when Jesus was born.

Please don't limit any Eternal Mystery to a specific day or season!

Blessings

Joch

Monnkz -

Many of us know the Word and follow the apostles' doctrine. We will not be deceived, nor shaken in mind by your deceptions.

1. The Bible says that the observing or not observing of holy days is not a “salvation issue”:

Let us consider what the inspired apostle wrote...,

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." Romans 14:4-6

Why do you condemn others who esteem one day higher than you do? We are taught by the inspired apostle that the keeping or not keeping of specific days IS DEFINITELY NOT a "salvation issue". Even the devils knew and recognized the apostle’s authority. By what authority do you then contradict the apostle?:

"Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but WHO ARE YOU?" Acts 19:15

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ and we cannot deny his teachings on this or any other subject. This is because we, as living stones,

Ephesians 2:20 … are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The doctrine of Christ’s apostles therefore is foundational to our faith as believers in Jesus.

Let us consider therefore the following definitive teaching then:

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For IN HIM dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power…

LET NO MAN therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:6-17

To summarize:

We have received Christ by faith, nothing more, nothing less. We are not made “more complete” by the keeping of the O.T. ceremonial practices, nor are we made “less complete” by forgoing the same. Rather, we are ALREADY COMPLETE in Christ by faith. Therefore, the eating or not eating of “ceremonially unclean meats”, or the observing or not observing of “ceremonially holy days” does not affect our being complete or our complete acceptance in Him.

We see then that an exacting observance of “holy days” is not required by God. This is absolutely settled by the Holy Ghost, who inspired the apostle. Since it is the Holy Ghost Who has made the final determination on this matter, we must submit to His will and stop judging ("condemning") others over which days they observe.

2. Attempting to discredit something by supposedly showing a “pagan origin” is biblically and historically inaccurate:

Consider: you may or may not be aware that there are literally dozens of “false-christ” stories that pre-date our Lord’s coming to earth, and their stories share many similarities to that of our Lord’s. Many of these Greco-Roman-eastern false-christs were said to have been sired by God and born of virgin women around the time of the winter solstice.

Some were said to have lived moral lives, died as martyrs, and some were even said to have been raised again from the dead. Using the same “pagan origin” reasoning that you have espoused, Christ’s enemies to this day continue to argue that the story of His coming in the Gospels originates from these pagan myths, because the myths supposedly came first; i.e. the “virgin birth” has a pagan origin; His martyr’s death has a pagan origin; His resurrection has a pagan origin. They say the Gospels are interpolated and false and that Jesus is therefore “just another myth”; i.e. He is just another false-christ.

However, just because pagans first believed similar (though twisted) stories about their false-christs doesn’t change the truth about Jesus Christ! This misleading, (though easily believed) “pagan-origin” type of argument has been around a long time, but was ably answered by one of our “Roman” brothers (Justin Martyr) almost 19 centuries ago. His reasoned that:

Satan tried to “poison the well”; he early anticipated as much as possible of what he was able to understand of the prophesies of Christ, and then unleashed as many twisted, distorted versions of it upon mankind as he could, in order to preempt, deceive, distract, confuse, and lead astray as many people as possible from seeing the true Christ when finally He did come.

He wrote:
“But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made,… we proceed to demonstrate that [these false-christ stories] have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvellous tales, like the things which were said by the poets. And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ…”

Furthermore, you imply that pagans first used December 25th as their holy day. You say that pagans worshiped Baal on this day, during this very darkest time in the year, (December 25th occurs very close to the winter-solstice.) So, the implication of such an argument is that Christians can have nothing to do with this day of the year.

But I ask, what is the actual true origin of December 25th? How was this day used before the pagan’s tried to take it over? Was it not a part of the year, and of the seasons, and of the times that God had made “good” in the very beginning? Yes it was. Were not the beautiful evergreens and holly trees likewise a part of God’s good creation then too? Yes they were. But you may say “these things that God first made good were later taken by pagans and made evil.” Well, yes, that would be true, if one first denies the Lordship of God over all His creation. But denying His Lordship is unbiblical, and mere men cannot actually make anything evil. The closest thing they can do is change some of God’s creation into a false representation of god, an idol.

But it is manifest that wreaths, and hollys, and trees are not idols, (just as cars, and houses, and furniture are not idols), unless they are worshiped as such. Likewise, consider my friend that God is the origin of all things; and of December 25th, as well as of every other day. How can you rather imagine that this day, or any of God’s days belong to mere pagans?

Because we understand that it is God who originates and owns every day, we Christians dutifully:

1. Cut out the pagans, (since they neither “originated” nor “own” any day of the year), and then we,

2. Give God thanks alone as LORD of every day that He has made.

Because today, as every day,

"...is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

Therefore, rather than ceding territory back to the devil, (as your view would require), we should reconsider our theories about the origin of Christmas. One could just as easily argue that some "Roman" Christians decided way-back-when to take this dark day back from Satan’s followers, and to celebrate the coming of the "Light of World into the darkness” on this day instead.

Their apparent error in reckoning the exact day is perhaps lamentable, but as we have seen above, God does not require the practice of an exact day in order to be saved. After all, the true, biblical position is that Jesus owns every day; Baal gets nothing, and Satan (the supposed "god of this world") has already been beaten, owns nothing, and has no power, but what our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ allows him to have. And this same Jesus is the KING of kings and the LORD of all the earth,...

"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him!" 1 Peter 3:22

3. “Christmas Trees” are not condemned in Scripture:

Ashtaroth worship is.

"Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee."
Deuteronomy 16:21

Since the physical temple and altar of God is no more, it would be impossible for us to literally transgress this commandment against worshiping the goddess Ashtaroth today, except perhaps in the sense of setting up a tree independently and actually worshiping it as some kind of idol. I don’t know of any people who do that, but I would certainly condemn such practices if they were occurring.

Barring literal worship of the tree, today Christians could only transgress the principle implied by this commandment against worshiping trees; which according to the teaching in the New Testament could perhaps be defined as:

...that we should not put a tree, (nor anything else), ahead of our worship of God. Doing so would of course be spiritual idolatry.

4. Attempting to use a ‘false-dilemma’ argument is a logical fallacy:

You impose the false view that there are only two positions in this issue: celebrating Christmas or not celebrating Christmas. Actually, there is third way: celebrating Jesus Christ from the heart at Christmas time, while eschewing secular rubbish that has nothing to do with Him.

5. One who erects walls of division between believers over non-essentials is a wicked abomination to Jesus Christ:

“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:,… he that soweth discord among brethren.” Proverbs 6:16,18

Consider also the wrath of the Great Shepherd against all those who would hurt and maim His precious sheep. As proven above, He has spoken on this issue and it is now settled. If you persist therefore in continuing to attack the body of Christ; if you continue to damn His people over something He Himself has deemed to be a non-essential, you will be making yourself an abomination in His sight.

Consider His JUDGMENT to come. Jesus “is even at the door.” Labor yourself therefore to “be found by Him in peace.” Set aside your misplaced attacks against Christ’s own body and judge your heart in the inspired light of Christ’s requirements:

"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

WHERE THERE IS NEITHER GREEK NOR JEW, CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but CHRIST IS ALL, and in all.” Colossians 3:8-14

Truly in Christ,
Doug

KrispyKrittr
Told ya... here we go again... just like clock-work!
**rolling of the eyes**
Krispy

I hear ya Bro, lots bigger fish to fry than this subject in the Church and the world today, some really need to get their priorities straight.

QUOTE:
"lots bigger fish to fry than this subject in the Church and the world today, some really need to get their priorities straight."

Amen Brother.

Monnkz wrote :We would rather partake in godworship won't we? because that's what christmas, holloween, thanksgiving, valentines day and easter is. godworship! the worship of demons. These are useless customs of men said Jeremiah.

___________

You think remembering all the blessings that GOD gave to the pilgrims at Thanksgiving is the worship of demons? I know full well the history of the other holidays you mentioned but Thanksgiving was started and kept to give "thanks and praise" to GOD for HIS provision and care.

God Bless
maryjane

Hi Krispy

All my own words except the first line in paragraph 2. English is my 2nd language, so I usually type my thoughts in Word, and when the spelling is sorted out, I paste it into the comment box.

Blessings

‘Twas the season of Christmas and all through the blogs
The brothers were looking for splinters not logs
Their research all polished, their doctrines all right
Their keyboards all whirled with their new found insight

Their children were safe with this holiday dead
No more visions of satan-clause to dance in their head
No more solstices, sun gods, or masses from Rome
Would ever again secretly defile their home

All grandparents warned not to wrap or to light
If they had any hopes to see grandkids that night
With fervent devotion to testify clear
We’ll have no esteem for this rank christmass cheer

We’re Christians, not pagans the cry must be heard
To think that this season is good is absurd
No more stockings or tinsel or Christmas tree smell,
No more mangers or myths of three wise men to tell

Down with Santa, down with Rudolph, down with holiday ball
We don’t see any merit or good in it all
We’ve studied, we’ve read, we’ve uncovered the story
This is one holiday we’ll no longer give glory

We’re Christians, we’re making our position clear
We touch not, we taste not, this holiday cheer
We’re set apart from all this deceptive glee
We once were deluded but now we can see

And while bashing our brothers with our own conviction
And sitting as judges in our own inquisition
The demons we think it so right to attack
Are happily riding on top of our back

Masterfully written; inspired, dear Brother.

Praise the Lord :O)

Brother Krispy - your comments were spot-on as well.

Be well my Brothers.

Doug

I wish you all a Blessed season, whether you celebrate Christ's birth on Dec. 25 or not.

QUOTE:
"And while bashing our brothers with our own conviction
And sitting as judges in our own inquisition
The demons we think it so right to attack
Are happily riding on top of our back."

I chuckled when I read this paragraph! (I laugh easily...)

Anyhow, very good...I love it!

Very good Alan.

makrothumia: It's feels so wonderful to be able to come here sometimes and get just a good belly laugh, this did it, and God knew I needed it. Wow! God Bless! I am still laughing.

QUOTE:
"dietolive -
I am not trying to deceive you, you are doing a mighty fine job of that yourself. ...Believe all that the prophets have spoken" Luke 24:25 Your own bible tells you not to partake in these customs."

Monnkz - If you will not believe the word of our Lord's inspired apostles, then be gone.

Doug

Monnkz...I am not trying to deceive you, you are doing a mighty fine job of that yourself. ...Believe all that the prophets have spoken" Luke 24:25 Your own bible tells you not to partake in these customs.

So my own Bible tells me I am not to celebrate the birth of Christ? because this is what I am personally celebrating on Christmas.

makrothumia...Last two lines say it all…Self-righteousness is the sin of the proud Christian…This is why Christianity has to be about Christ… and not about me.

Monnkz wrote:MaryJane - Did God ever tell us to remember the Pilgrims and celebrate that day in honor of the pilgrims?

________

I do not honor the pilgrims by celebrating Thanksgiving and I do not know of anyone who does?? In fact your the first person who has ever suggested such a thing to me.

I celebrate and give thanks to GOD everyday and on Thanksgiving because of all that HE does daily for me. I do not see anything sinful or wrong with giving thanks to GOD for HIS provision and that is why I celebrate Thanksgiving, its a day to remember how GOD cares for us and provides for us every day of the year...I honor the LORD and give HIM all the glory, praise and worship because HE alone is deserving...

God Bless
maryjane

Dear brothers and sisters,

Let's be imitators of Paul, especially in this regard:
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts."

Let's remember that "if any man regards anything as unclean - to him it is unclean." This should not make the one who does not judge it as unclean unsettled. Each of us are to have our faith before God on matters where we are of different faith. The peace of Christ is to rule in our hearts because as members of one body we are called to peace.

Going beyond having faith before God on disputable matters is where we too often miss the mark. It is not a contradiction for one brother to regard a day above another day, and another brother to not regard the same day, but consider all days the same. The wrong occurs when one brother judges the other rather than having faith before God alone. We must learn not to go beyond what is written and not to think too highly of ourselves but with sober judgment according to the measure of faith we have been given.

We should imitate Paul who wrote "when we are reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; being defamed we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world."
Let us not then become unsettled when we experience what we have been made. When our Lord was reviled, He reviled not in return. When He was threatened He did not return the threat. Instead, He entrusted Himself to His Father and continued to do what is good. Wisdom is justified of her deeds, rarely ever by her words.

If others treat the things we hold dear as dirt, let it remind us that this is what we our. Dirt never complains about being walked upon. When others treat us like dirt, let's give thanks for the reminder of our humble beginnings.

makrothumia

@ Monnkz

Until you are ready to acknowledge that the Apostolic writings are the "God breathed infallible and inspired Word of God".... and as authoritative as the Old Testament.... then few, if any here, will accept your words. Your statements CLEARLY defy the writings of the Apostle Paul on this subject. In fact the apostolic writings must of necessity carry greater weight as they are the fulfillment of the Old Testament shadows and types. The Old testament is the beginning... the full maturity is found in the new. If you wish to live under the lesser then you may do so. However, we have embraced a BETTER covenant based on BETTER promises. Please carefully consider this...

"But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. Hebrews 8:6-7

Clearly the scripture says the first covenant was insufficient to make man right with God. Thus we have Jesus coming into the world. We wish to celebrate that glorious event. We shall do so.

Please read the books of Galatians and 1 Corinthians. You will find that you are just the latest in a long line of Judaizers seeking to undermine the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. These points were already well covered by dietolive so I won't rehash them. Those who are free in Christ will not be shackled by the dead laws of performance.

You may just be a troll... a non believer stirring up a hornets nest on the board... that is possible.... and tis' the season as they say. However, if you truly are one seeking to bring those free in Christ back under bondage then the apostle Paul has dealt death nails in the scripture to that coffin belief you propose that destroys mens faith. If you are a Judaizer you are not unique..indeed...you are just next.

Please read those books in scripture I suggested if you are honest.

Merry Christmas To All!

Monnkz wrote:

It's wonderful to give thanks and praises to our father in heaven, reverencing a special day set aside by man is reverencing whoever it is that established that holy day.

______
Respectfully I disagree with you. I give thanks unto the LORD and I do so with a clear conscious and a submissive and obedient heart to HIS leading in my life...Thanksgiving is a day that I spend giving thanks unto the LORD much like I do everyday.

Now that I understand your opinion on the matter I will take leave of this thread.

God Bless
maryjane

This is why IMO Christianity has to be about Christ… and not about me. After all; Who voluntarily chose to sacrifice their life for my sin… obviously not me… IMO takes more sacrificial love than most of us have in our hearts.

Funny how our Father God can provide something so wonderful it is hard to explain… and us arrogant humans can spoil it with our pride and intellectualism.

Basics!!! Sometimes the basics are where the goods are…

Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy New Year to all!

The apostle Paul dealt sharply with apostate judiazers. And we know why:

He loved the souls of his people.

The shepherd bears and uses the rod for the very same reason.

He loves the sheep.

Be well all,
Doug

Wow -- this topic started earlier this year!

It seems like it is typically brought up around Thanksgiving (or shortly thereafter). I used to participate, but I said all that I needed to say on the matter in some of the threads from several years back.

Now, excuse me as I put on my Nike sneakers (pagan name) and "wedding ring" (oops...pagan practice), check the "mercury" (oops...a pagan name) in the thermometer outside before I climb into my Ford "Taurus" (oops...another pagan name) and drive to lunch since it is nearly "noon" (a Roman-pagan term) on "Thursday" (pagan name) and pay for it with currency that contains a couple of pagan symbols.

@ monnkz

YOU STATE AT ME: "The Mistranslations of the Book of Galatians,Corinthians and Ephesians has led many astray".

I RESPOND: A great many of us on this forum will translate and read directly from the Greek. Where exactly do you think this "mistranslation" is happening if our primary source is the Greek and not the English?

YOU STATE: Do you think I'm surprised that you are calling me name.....Do not participate in godworship and all of a sudden I'm a troll?

I RESPOND: I actually stated ," You may just be a troll... a non believer stirring up a hornets nest on the board... that is possible...." I stand by that. It is certainly possible that you are just trying to stir contention amongst followers of Jesus. I don't know yet...thus I said "you MAY BE"...and indeed you MAY.

YOU STATED: Why do you find it so hard to believe the Apostle John when he said that satan has deceived the whole world (Rev 12:9) remember? Maybe the whole world doesn't include you, does it? (a cyber shot it seems)

I RESPOND: You may believe what you wish. However, when you find a virtual total agreement amongst Christians of all flavors, beliefs, and stripes on a single issue it is a very safe place to be. Virtually all Christians have taken the view opposite of yours. A view that they have found to be clearly well grounded in scripture. Please at least consider that you might be mistaken on this point. When all other followers of Jesus have arrived at another conclusion from you ... conclusions they have based on the scripture.... then perhaps it is possible that the one person who does not see it is the one in error in this case. Not pointing a finger at you... however, it seems very self righteous to think everyone else that follows Jesus is wrong and you are the lone light of truth. That is a bit arrogant if I may be so blunt.

I for one am done posting on this ... nothing to be gained and no thoughts will be persuaded once they have made their minds up. The most dangerous person in the world is the "christian" who knows they are right. Remember the Inquisitions.... the Pharisees... the Judaizers.. and a hundred other "religious" persecutions? They ALL KNEW they were right and doing God's will.

Monnkz- have you noticed how I, and others, have blessed you to see the Christmas season as you feel dictated to by your conscience? To embrace it or refrain from embracing it based on your convictions. Have you also noticed that you have said we are all "deceived", or under God's displeasure, because we do not submit ourselves to your demands of how to view and approach the season? Please read the Gospels and you will find this is exactly what happened with the Pharisees. I am not saying you are one.... just examine what you have posted and weigh it honestly in the scales of truth.
Fair enough?

I am finished with the thread. Blessings to all. Merry Christmas... a day we set aside to especially remember the birth of our Savior, Jesus the Christ.

Blessings to all!

OK...just this one more post because I did not see the one from ccchhhrrriiisss

@ ccchhhrrriiisss. GREAT POST! If there was a "like" button oh here I would hit it for that one. Great humor...and insight. Thanks for sharing it!

Dear Brother,

There is no need to defend yourself here. Monnkz is just using the wrong definition of "love" that many have, to get under your skin. He twists the words of those who deal justly with him, to instead be seen as "hate", in order to sow confusion in our midst.

I have keenly observed Monnkz's entrance into the forum. He does require Gentiles to keep the law of Moses and to be circumcised, or they cannot be saved. Monnkz is trying his very best to draw the people away from the pure words of the apostles. Let the reader beware.

Here is a quote from Monnkz's "Deception, What is Sin" Thread:

"Hello... thanks for your post, here is the commentary on Acts 15, it will help your understanding.

Verse 15:5- The Pharisees were a sect of Yahdaim (Jews) who were noted for their insistence that those who reverenced Yahweh were to keep ordinances, rules, and customs that were ordained by MEN (refer to Mark 7:1-13). As a group, the Pharisees would insist that these man-made laws be kept, IN ADDITION TO the Laws Yahweh gave through Moses, Romans 9:32. Verse 15:10- It was these MAN-MADE Laws, Not the Laws of Yahweh, that was a YOKE on the neck, which neither the fathers, nor the disciples, were able to bear.

There are 613 Righteous Laws which includes the 10 Commandments as part of the total law, here is a couple"

He is a judaizer. I say again. Beware.

Love to the Brethren, who Love the Lord in Truth.
Doug

I am not here to sow any discord at all, I'm not trying to break up the "brotherly love" you got going on here either. I started a thread CHRISTMAS -Pagan Holiday #1 and backed it up with scripture Jeremiah 10:2-5 (I didn't make it up)

I am also very aware that people will be offended by it, I wasn't expecting any hi-fives. But I do agree with your advice, if someone posts a thread, you can like it, hate it or laugh about it.

By the way what's a judaizer? big laugh there.
May the peace of Yahweh be with each and everyone of you.

Praise Yahweh

Brother, I believe you have misinterpreted Jeremiah 10:2-5. I would encourage you to read a bit further in the chapter. The prophet Jeremiah is dealing with the subject of man-made idols that were being worshiped by Israel, not the display of Christmas trees.

As to the celebration of Christmas, I think everyone knows the date chosen and some of the customs were originally pulled out of other pagan worship. But then again, so are some of the Easter traditions. Paul dealt with a very similar issue with the eating of meat that had been offered to idols.

1Co 8:1-13
(1) Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
(2) And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
(3) But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
(4) As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
(5) For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
(6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(7) Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
(8) But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
(9) But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
(10) For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
(11) And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
(12) But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
(13) Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Paul's teaching is that the idol is nothing, it is simply a dead piece of wood. Therefore to eat the food that has been dedicated to the idol is not an issue at all unless it violates the conscience or causes a brother to stumble. If you are hungry and the only food available is that which has been dedicated to idols by pagans, so be it. Have lunch. A very similar point can be made about Christmas. When I put up a tree and decorate it, I am reminded of the tree on which my savior died. Some years we even use ornaments that depict this event. When I give gifts I do so out of love for my family and friends. During the whole season I remember my Savior's birth and His life and His death. I do not think twice for conscience sake that the holiday had its origins in a pagan holiday. I am not even aware of the significance of the pagan holiday, nor do I care to know. I simply know that I am using this time of the year to celebrate Jesus Christ and that the world is being reminded, like it or not, of the fact that there is a God, a Savior, and that He love them, and that they will one day be held accountable to Him.

I really would encourage you thought to reread the entire chapter in Jeremiah and reconsider the context.

In my opinion, the Bible is silent from the standpoint of our Christmas traditions. However, because of our freedom in Christ under grace, we are at liberty to celebrate Christmas. The important point is that the Bible simply does not condemn the celebration of Christmas even in the traditional form and we have liberty in Christ to choose to do so. The issue is not the observance, but the reason, the attitudes and the spirit in which it is done.

I can see attacking Christmas from the Bible has no traction here. God has convicted me personally not to celebrate it. I don't celebrate it because of its explicitly pagan origin and the disingenuous coverup of this fact by calling it Jesus' birthday.

There's so much commercialization... think about what great lengths we go to as a western society to provide expensive, unneeded gifts (corroding gold and silver) to friends and family.

Christmas "time" also contributes the largest number of suicides for the year.

My mom used the argument: it gets people thinking about Jesus when they normally might not. Maybe. Maybe there have been people saved from attending Christmas services or plays. I just have a hard time believing the Father would bless a holiday with such a sinful, deceitful birth.

Just stuff to consider...

blah, blah, blah... When the church replaced the pagan holiday with Christmas it has been centered upon Christ ever since until the latter part of the 1900's. I don't see how the Scripture in Jeremiah has to do with a Christmas tree. Who is worshipping a tree, except the ones Jeremiah was talking about? Keep Christ in Christmas! It's the one holiday that many can be touched with the virtues of Christianity.

Jos 6:18
"And you, by all means abstain from the accursed things, lest you become accursed when you take of the accursed things, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
Jos 7:12
"Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. For they have even taken some of the accursed things, and have both stolen and deceived; and they have also put [it] among their own stuff.
Jos 7:12
"Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, [but] turned [their] backs before their enemies, because they have become doomed to destruction. Neither will I be with you anymore, unless you destroy the accursed from among you.

Well, this is how I see it in context.

Israel is delivered from the bondage of Egypt. - (Salvation)
Red sea. - (Water Baptism)
Desert ... Manna .... and so forth (not relevant here)
Goes through Jordan. - (Baptism in the Holy Spirit)
Utterly destroys Jericho - (Religion, the World, the Flesh, whatever stands in the way of establishing God's Kingdom)
Except for the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, these were to be put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

Every living creature was killed, and burned (with whatever was in the City) with fire, ON GOD'S COMMAND. This is shocking, but I believe it was nesessary to cleanse the land of defilement, and thereby leaving us an example of the extreme measures that we should take in entering our Promised Land.
Unfortunately (for all) Achan disobeyed so he, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys and his sheep were stoned, and burned with fire, along with all that he had (his tent, the silver, the garment and the wedge of gold)……. ( Again, very shocking.)

1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

My point is that if we should take Occult practices, and festivals (unless at God’s demand) and incorporate it into our faith, we are not learning fom God’s WORD ( I never mentioned the Law here)

There is absolutely no Scripture in the entire Word of God to support celebrating JESUS' birthday at any time. However, we are told in the Word to keep the commandments that the Lord has given us and not to add anything to them nor take anything from them (De. 12:28-32, Mt. 5:17-19).

If God wanted us to celebrate JESUS' birthday, I believe He could have given us the date and told us how to do it. We are only told to commemorate His death and resurrection with the Lord's Supper until He comes. The early Christians did this at every meeting.

http://www.moodymanual.demonbuster.com/cpoch.html

jochbaptist -

Would you please deal with the five arguments I made at the bottom of page 1 of this Thread?

Thank you.
Doug

There are those who say that they know that JESUS wasn't born on December 25th, but they set that day aside to celebrate the birth of their Savior. They also say that they don't celebrate it with sinful activities, but with things that would please the Lord as an expression of their love for Him. Please don't get caught up in your personal feelings, let's remain honest, open and objective about this position as we test the Scripture.

http://www.moodymanual.demonbuster.com/cpoch.html

jochbaptist -

Would you please deal with the five arguments I made at the bottom of page 1 of this Thread?

Thank you.
Doug

Monnkz

YOU STATE; With all due respect Krispy; you're wrong. There's only one covenant, not two. same covenant given to Adam & Eve was renewed for us.

I AND HEBREWS 8:6-7 RESPOND; 6.But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the COVENANT(1) of which he is mediator is superior to THE OLD ONE (2), since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that FIRST covenant(1), no place would have been sought for ANOTHER(2). Hebrews 8:6-7

It CLEARLY states that the FIRST covenant had short comings (inability to make man right with God) so a SECOND covenant was cut in the body of Jesus that could. It also clearly states that the NEW one is SUPERIOR to the OLD one.

You are CLEARLY in error on this point and in direct violation of the scriptures above. It SPECIFICALLY STATES there are 2 covenants.

hi, time itself is separated by the bith of a child.

Dear Brother -

You said:
"Paul did not beg with those who had an issue eating meat offered to idol to go ahead and eat it anyway. He told them not to eat it because to them it would be a sin."

This view of I Corinthians 8 has been stated more than once. Per chapter 8, it is true that the devils who inhabit idols have no power over the faithful Christian who ignorantly eats meat sacrificed to them.

However, please read chapter 10, keeping chapter 8 in mind. Paul finished the thought he started, and lays down the apostolic tradition for us and how we are to regard meats sacrifced to idols....

Paul comes to different conclusion in chapter 10 then what we might expect him to, just from reading chapter 8.

We are not allowed to eat meat that "we know" has been sacrificed to an idol.

Be well,
Doug

Well old sluefoot sent someone in to stir things up just before the Holidays, and so for, he is done a good job, this is why he is call "sluefoot" Lol

Monnkz,

You are a judiazer. You are on a mission to bring God's Chosen under your power. You wish to force the old rituals and ceremonies back upon their tender consciences.

We Christians do not even share the same scriptural foundation with you.

Rather, we know that:

1. The New Testament teaches that Old Covenant rituals are not binding on New Covenant Christians.

We Christians affirm that Old Covenant rituals and ceremonies have nothing to do with New Covenant salvation. Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, now have peace with God simply through our faith in Jesus Christ, Who,

Eph 2:14 ...hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man...

The apostle teaches that the Old Covenant-required rituals and ceremonies that had so long separated Jew from Gentile have now been abolished by God. You say that they are binding on Christians and you imply that we Christians are lost because we take the apostle's teachings at face-value. By doing so, you have re-built a wall of separation between us, and this is an ABOMINATION to God.

We Christians firmly believe the inspired apostles when they teach that in no sense whatsoever are Old Covenant rituals necessary to observe in order to be saved. Rather, both Jews and Gentiles alike are saved by faith in Christ alone.

2. The N.T. teaches that Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the ritual and ceremonial observances of the Old Covenant.

Please consider:

Col 2:10 And ye are COMPLETE in HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 LET NO MAN therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of AN HOLYDAY, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days:

Col 2:17 Which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the BODY is of Christ.

The reasoning of the apostle in this place is that:

These ritual and ceremonial observances were merely symbolic and transitory, like a shadow being cast on a wall by a man's approaching body.

They merely pointed to various aspects of Christ's salvation ministry, (which at the time was yet to come), but which He has now completely won for us.

Since Christ has indeed already come and has succeeded spectacularly in His mission to "purchase us with His own blood", we naturally set aside the UNNECESSARY rituals that merely pointed to that, and fully embrace Him instead, just as we would naturally set aside our attention from a man's shadow, once the man himself comes into our view...

By faith alone we NOW have Christ and by faith alone we are NOW made COMPLETE in Him. Rituals and ceremonies that once pointed to him have been made obsolete. The writer of Hebrews says plainly that these ritual observances had come to end. They,

Heb 9:10 ...stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Thank God! We have now entered into a new and glorious time where God has not only freed us from these carnal ordinances but has also,

Col 1:13 ...delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

And this,

Rom 14:17 ... kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The New Testament writings clearly affirm that there is a change in God's requirements concerning rituals and ceremonial observances, but if you will not hear the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, perhaps you will you hear the prophets of the LORD instead:

3. The O.T. teaches that God Himself would be the One to alter His Own Word.

When Israel ignored the necessity of true heart-holiness, God Himself became sick of their ceremonies and their keeping of sabbaths:

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul HATETH: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

God found this fault to be so consistent with them as to be detestable. He later spoke through the prophet Jeremiah:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their HEARTS; and will be their God, and THEY shall be my people.

It may be asserted that God's "ethical" requirements can never be changed; that Scripture in the New Testament can never contradict Scripture in the Old Testament. Verses may be quoted to prove that men cannot change God's requirements, and this is good and right and true, but who are you to say that HE Himself CANNOT change His Own requirements? Didn't you notice that "YAH" says in the text: "I" will make a CHANGE regarding my covenant with the House of Israel?

4. Consider further:

The Old Covenant (along with it's ritual and ceremonial observances), has been REPLACED by the New Covenant, and it wasn't any mere man that did this, but GOD Himself :

Heb 10:9 ...HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST [COVENANT], that he may establish the second.

How can you have set yourself up to be a "teacher in Israel" when you don't even know "YAH's" mind? How can you be a true "watchman over Israel" when you are so totally ignorant of His purposes?

God Himself has changed the nature of our covenant with Him. He has changed the requirements and He has revealed a truly "new and living way." And truly, "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY!" Through Christ alone we have,

Heb 10:19 ... boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20 By a NEW and LIVING WAY, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The New Covenant is the "NEW WAY", but our knowledge of it is not new. It had already been heralded by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and its fulfillment has been fully explained to us by the apostles. Truly we are,

Eph 2:20 ... built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets!

Consequently, we Christians know with the fullest assurance that:

5. The Bible says that the observing or not observing of individual holy days is not a “salvation issue”:

We Christians can take the simple teachings of the apostles at face-value:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth ONE DAY above another: another esteemeth EVERY DAY alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Col 2:16 LET NO MAN THEREFORE JUDGE YOU.

Even so, LORD JESUS. Amen.

May God bless the TRUE "Israel of God."
Doug.

The Christmas tree thing, I personally believe it was cut down as an idol, we don't cut trees down to worship or idol now, so that rules that part out.

Monnkz -

Can you answer any of my points? I have taken the time to carefully quote our apostles, and explain their ideas, and show you where you are missing the mark.

Can you answer these points, or not? Everyone can read what was written. They see where you are wrong.

Do you have any answers to my points? Any?

Dear Brother... You have quite a way about you...

I am certain I am not the only one who can't help but laugh at times when reading your posts... right in the middle of serious stuff too...

God bless you my friend!

Doug :O)

Quote: jochbaptist -

Would you please deal with the five arguments I made at the bottom of page 1 of this Thread?

Thank you.
Doug

Sure.

1. Cut out the pagans, (since they neither “originated” nor “own” any day of the year).

- I think you underestimate the Demonic realm. Although it has been disarmed. I still think that it operates in a specific hierarchy and to specific “times and seasons” (Astrology). It has fundamentally been the same since the fall, whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Celtic or African etc. and there is a definite agenda and purpose operating, especially when the Bride is sleeping. Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].

2. Give God thanks alone as LORD of every day that He has made.
Therefore, rather than ceding territory back to the devil, (as your view would require), we should reconsider our theories about the origin of Christmas. One could just as easily argue that some "Roman" Christians decided way-back-when to take this dark day back from Satan’s followers, and to celebrate the coming of the "Light of World into the darkness” on this day instead.

- My point exactly, WE SHOULD celebrate his Incarnation, the fact that He (ALMIGHTY GOD) appeared as a babe, Mary’s service in giving birth to Him in the stable etc RIGHT THROUGH THE YEAR, or as the Holy Spirit moves in and amongst us. I listen to “Christmas music” right through the year … Why limit it to one day?

3. “Christmas Trees” are not condemned in Scripture:
Ashtaroth worship is.

- I agree.
- So why don’t you decorate a tree and keep it in your house for the whole year? The reason is that the tree was part of the Pagan practices incorporated into Christmas, and goes with the “spirit of the season”.

4.
Attempting to use a ‘false-dilemma’ argument is a logical fallacy.
You impose the false view that there are only two positions in this issue: celebrating Christmas or not celebrating Christmas. Actually, there is third way: celebrating Jesus Christ from the heart at Christmas time, while eschewing secular rubbish that has nothing to do with Him.
- There are those who say that they know that JESUS wasn't born on December 25th, but they set that day aside to celebrate the birth of their Savior. They also say that they don't celebrate it with sinful activities, but with things that would please the Lord as an expression of their love for Him. Please don't get caught up in your personal feelings, let's remain honest, open and objective about this position as we test the Scripture.
http://www.moodymanual.demonbuster.com/cpoch.html
- Gal 4:9&10 - But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how [is it that] you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be IN BONDAGE? YOU OBSERVE DAYS AND MONTHS AND SEASONS AND YEARS.

5.
One who erects walls of division between believers over non-essentials is a wicked abomination to Jesus Christ

- This is not non-essential according to Gal 4:9&10 - But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how [is it that] you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be IN BONDAGE? YOU OBSERVE DAYS AND MONTHS AND SEASONS AND YEARS.
- I believe we should correct each other, in a Godly way. 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season [and] out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Blessings

Monnkz-

I repost this as it got lost in the non essential clutter. Do you admit there are 2 covenants now... A new and better one and an older inferior one? I repost to ask-

Monnkz

YOU STATE; With all due respect Krispy; you're wrong. There's only one covenant, not two. same covenant given to Adam & Eve was renewed for us.

I AND HEBREWS 8:6-7 RESPOND; 6.But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the COVENANT(1) of which he is mediator is superior to THE OLD ONE (2), since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that FIRST covenant(1), no place would have been sought for ANOTHER(2). Hebrews 8:6-7

It CLEARLY states that the FIRST covenant had short comings (inability to make man right with God) so a SECOND covenant was cut in the body of Jesus that could. It also clearly states that the NEW one is SUPERIOR to the OLD one.

You are CLEARLY in error on this point and in direct violation of the scriptures above. It SPECIFICALLY STATES there are 2 covenants.

Do you agree with the scripture that there are 2 covenants or do you still hold to your original post that there is only 1?

It doesn't matter, we can celebrate the birth of Christ every day if we want to, and I want to. I also observe Christmas, and there's no Biblical prohibition against Christmas. It's one of the most beautiful times of the year when most can get together with their families and have a good time in the Lord.
Observe Christmas or don't - your choice - but mind your own business - don't make up condemnation and judgment for those who do - hide on Christmas or whatever you want to do.
In the meantime, all days belong to Christ.
I first thought this might be another Christmas bashing thread, and I'm happy that it isn't.:)

Hi jochbaptist.

Thanks for taking the time to actually respond. However, you re-numbered my arguments and then only responded to arguments 3,4, and 5.

What about my 1st argument? What about my 2nd argument?

1. The Bible says that the observing or not observing of holy days is not a “salvation issue.”

2. Attempting to discredit something by supposedly showing a “pagan origin” is biblically and historically inaccurate"

Please read these and answer them too.

You quoted me:
"Cut out the pagans, (since they neither “originated” nor “own” any day of the year)."

And then wrote:
"- I think you underestimate the Demonic realm..."

No, I think rather that you OVER-estimate the power of the demonic realm, and consequently UNDER-estimate the power of our God.

You quote me:
"Give God thanks alone as LORD of every day that He has made...."

And then write:
"- My point exactly, WE SHOULD celebrate his Incarnation, the fact that He (ALMIGHTY GOD) appeared as a babe, Mary’s service in giving birth to Him in the stable etc RIGHT THROUGH THE YEAR, or as the Holy Spirit moves in and amongst us. I listen to “Christmas music” right through the year … Why limit it to one day?"

Actually, we celebrate Christmas all year. We do. Really.

Regarding Argument 3.“Christmas Trees” are not condemned in Scripture:
Ashtaroth worship is."

You wrote:
"- I agree.
- So why don’t you decorate a tree and keep it in your house for the whole year? The reason is that the tree was part of the Pagan practices incorporated into Christmas, and goes with the “spirit of the season."

Anyone may do as he pleases. There is no compulsion with our view, only with yours. We may have a tree decoration up for one day or 365, it matters not.

Regarding Argument #4 "Attempting to use a ‘false-dilemma’ argument is a logical fallacy."

You wrote:
"You quote:
"- Gal 4:9&10 - But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how [is it that] you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be IN BONDAGE? YOU OBSERVE DAYS AND MONTHS AND SEASONS AND YEARS."

There is no compulsion in our practice, only in yours. We may celebrate it, or we may not, according to the Scriptures in my argument #1.

Regarding #5 "One who erects walls of division between believers over non-essentials is a wicked abomination to Jesus Christ"

You wrote:
"- This is not non-essential according to Gal 4:9&10 - But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how [is it that] you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be IN BONDAGE? YOU OBSERVE DAYS AND MONTHS AND SEASONS AND YEARS.

Again, there is no compulsion, no "bondage" in our practice, only in yours. We may celebrate it, or we may not, according to the Scriptures in my argument #1.

You continue:
"- I believe we should correct each other, in a Godly way. 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season [and] out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching."

Amen.

Be well,
Doug

KrispyKrittr.....
It's not. This is very much a theological issue.

Krispy

Well then here is some theology to read:

Regardless of how brilliant or how great one's intellect may be, God's Word is not understood by human wisdom or reasoning. It is only through the Spirit of God that the Word of God is understood.

Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.

KrispyKrittr
You have to have the Spirit of Truth dwelling inside...

Krispy

Ah! this is true.

Monnkz-

That is clearly a dodge! This whole discussion rises or falls on this ONE issue. If there is ONE covenant we are bound to it. If there are TWO we follow the better and greater one. The rest is all chatter. You refused to answer the question.. I again point blank ask you-

YOU STATE; With all due respect Krispy; you're wrong. There's only one covenant, not two. same covenant given to Adam & Eve was renewed for us.

I AND HEBREWS 8:6-7 RESPOND; 6.But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the COVENANT(1) of which he is mediator is superior to THE OLD ONE (2), since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that FIRST covenant(1), no place would have been sought for ANOTHER(2). Hebrews 8:6-7

It CLEARLY states that the FIRST covenant had short comings (inability to make man right with God) so a SECOND covenant was cut in the body of Jesus that could. It also clearly states that the NEW one is SUPERIOR to the OLD one.

You are CLEARLY in error on this point and in direct violation of the scriptures above. It SPECIFICALLY STATES there are 2 covenants.

Do you agree with the scripture that there are 2 covenants or do you still hold to your original post that there is only 1?

If you say "1" then you deny the scripture. If you say "2" and agree with us then you certainly see we are not bound by the former and lesser of the 2 covenants. What is is... one covenant or two ...at least be honest enough to answer this time and not dodge!

Come on now, don't you think "hypocrite" is harsh? Maybe with today being 11-11-11 he is just observing the law, you know not really condoning it, just observing it. Look I am trying to speak in Love here. :)

Monnkz,
There is a thick cloud of deception that's weakening the nation. We should bring it to light. Satan is weakening the Nation, just look around you.

Amen! Amen! and Amen! can I get another Amen? :)

Monnkz,
There is a thick cloud of deception that's weakening the nation. We should bring it to light. Satan is weakening the Nation, just look around you.

Let get our priorities straight. If we started in Washington fighting the deception, by the time we got that straightened out, Jesus would have probably already come back, so debating over the Christmas holiday, would be irrelevant by that time.

Monnkz....
Krispy, Faith Without Works Is Dead James 2:14-26 didn't you get that memo?

Krispy may have got it, but I doubt Abraham did, since James is new testament....

Monnkz, would you please read these verses from Hebrews 8, especially verse 13. Do you keep EVERY commandment in the old testament? Also I'm interested to hear your answer to Krispy's hair question.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.3
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Monnkz,

Again, lost in the clutter posts. I am asking Monnkz ONLY. Krispy...please don't throw your 2 cents in again and bury the questions further. You have approaching 7,250 posts. Everyone knows your opinion by now. We have all seen it again and again and again. Your constant back and forth arguing is only burying the real questions on which this idea hinges. Please leave it alone and let Monnkz answer the questions for himself that I and Dietolive have asked him without burying them. Thanks for understanding brother.

This whole discussion rises or falls on this ONE issue and ONE issue only. If there is ONE covenant we are bound to it. If there are TWO we follow the better and greater one. The rest is all chatter. You refused to answer the question before......Monnkz I again point blank ask you-

YOU STATE; With all due respect Krispy; you're wrong. There's only one covenant, not two. same covenant given to Adam & Eve was renewed for us.

I AND HEBREWS 8:6-7 RESPOND; 6.But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the COVENANT(1) of which he is mediator is superior to THE OLD ONE (2), since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that FIRST covenant(1), no place would have been sought for ANOTHER(2). Hebrews 8:6-7

It CLEARLY states that the FIRST covenant had short comings (inability to make man right with God) so a SECOND covenant was cut in the body of Jesus that could. It also clearly states that the NEW one is SUPERIOR to the OLD one.

It SPECIFICALLY STATES there are 2 COVENANTS.

Do you agree with the scripture that there are 2 covenants or do you still hold to your original post that there is only 1?

You dodged this question earlier. The answer is either you believe in 1 covenant or 2 covenants. Which do you choose..1 or 2? Just give a straight up answer of 1 or 2... don't dodge again please.

Krispy, et.al.

I have been following this thread a bit and have an observation to make. We tend to see things through the accumulated knowledge and influence that has come to us. We can call it our worldview if we wish, but it can be very powerful. Error is especially powerful as it can so blind us to the truth that we can see nothing other than our own particular slant on things. From the accumulated statements I think it would be beneficial for you to check out the website of the following organization headquartered in Abilene, TX. It should explain much.

The House of Yahweh

I have heard the argument that one should not celebrate Christmas because it originally was a pagan holiday the Christians took and Christianized it. I have also been told the ancient Romans had so many holidays that it would indeed been difficult to find a day to celebrate anything Christian without the pagans celebrating as well but for a different reason.

Anyhow...I did a google search for 'Ancient Roman Holidays" and was surprised at the number of them. It really would have been a problem to find days for a Christian holiday that did not conflict with a pagan one.

In 1999 Ascension day was on May 13. This day (May 9, 11, 13) was called Lemuria in ancient Rome. The days when the ghosts of the dead were out and about.

In 1999 on May 23 was Pentecost. This day was called: Tubilustrium – To Vulcan, who is responsible for the making of the sacred war trumpets (tubas).

(I took an old calender and went through and marked all the holidays ancient Rome observed, hence the year 1999.)

One site also said it was the Jews' observing the Sabbath who were the only ones to have a regular weekend!

There you go...

Oh, let's see, I was born on April 7..what did the Romans celebrate on that day? "Ludi Megalenses – April 4-10. Originally celebrated on March 27 when the statue of the Great Mother was washed. This single day was in the second century AD expanded to several days when games were held in honor of Cybele, the Great Mother, a goddess represented by a large stone brought to Rome in 204 BC by instruction of the Oracle of Delphi. Transported all the way from Pessinus in Asia Minor, its arrival must have seen auspicious as it coincided with Rome's final victory over Hannibal. The holiday seems to have entered the calendar on a regular basis ten years later. Usually only the last day featured chariot racing." It would be a real bummer if anyone would decide it would be wrong to celebrate my birthday because the Romans' celebration ...

One cannot control what the pagans did back then as we cannot control them today. But we do have the power to live for the LORD and honor Him with our Holidays.

My search and it got to be interesting...not complete but educational.

Monnkz

- MrBillPro-

Yahweh called Abraham his friend James 2:23
How dare we to question his character.

Jesus is my friend, and I call him my friend, but I did not live when he did, but sometimes I feel that old. :)

Monnkz-

I see you are on line.. you are still dodging the key question. Have the character to please read it and respond this time...once again...

This whole discussion rises or falls on this ONE issue and ONE issue only. If there is ONE covenant we are bound to it. If there are TWO we follow the better and greater one. The rest is all chatter. You refused to answer the question before......Monnkz I again point blank ask you-

YOU STATE; With all due respect Krispy; you're wrong. There's only one covenant, not two. same covenant given to Adam & Eve was renewed for us.

I AND HEBREWS 8:6-7 RESPOND; 6.But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the COVENANT(1) of which he is mediator is superior to THE OLD ONE (2), since the NEW covenant is established on BETTER promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that FIRST covenant(1), no place would have been sought for ANOTHER(2). Hebrews 8:6-7

It CLEARLY states that the FIRST covenant had short comings (inability to make man right with God) so a SECOND covenant was cut in the body of Jesus that could. It also clearly states that the NEW one is SUPERIOR to the OLD one.

It SPECIFICALLY STATES there are 2 COVENANTS.

Do you agree with the scripture that there are 2 covenants or do you still hold to your original post that there is only 1?

You have dodged this question multiple times now. The answer is either you believe in 1 covenant or 2 covenants. Which do you choose..1 or 2? Just give a straight up answer of 1 or 2... don't dodge again please.

Amen Ginnyrose!
JB

HEy Chris... enjoyed the humor...btw Happy Thanksgiving and soon to be Merry Christmas!!

Joch, you said, "There is absolutely no Scripture in the entire Word of God to support celebrating JESUS' birthday at any time"
WOW. IT also does not say to not celebrate it. Am I right? If you do not want to celebrate it, then don't.

Jesus is the reason for the season!

Wow, Krispy, just like you said, here it is. Lol!

Just as an interesting side-note, Scripture does make it pretty clear that Jesus was born in the month we call September...

Btw, could you email me your email address, Krispy? Mine is in my profile. Thanks!

Dear Brother Solomon101,

It looks like he is never going to answer us..., or Brother Krispy for that matter.

I have something interesting however to bring up though. I saw this DVD presentation several months ago, and it was AMAZING. Simply amazing.

It was like watching something, and then it made sense, and then all of the sudden, it "clicked." And then we just sat there stunned..., simply stunned.

An American Christian lawyer was curious about the star of Bethlehem; was it a supernova? a comet? a figment of the imagination? Using sophisticated astronomical software, he decided to "turn back the clock" and find out.

Yes, Jesus was not born in December, but, (without giving too much away), he ultimately discovered that DECEMBER 25th WAS THE FIRST CHRISTMAS!

Go to bethlehemstar.net to see how this could be.

Be well Brothers,
Doug

Do we ever get tired of the same rehash? Year after year after year. And we wonder why we never grow and are defeated by the same besetting sins over and over again.

Thread terminated.