Baptism of the Holy Spirit...should we ask for it?

Been reading Samuel Chadwick (Ravenhill's teacher at seminary), along with some of Martyn Lloyd-Jones' material.

As some of you know, they both believed that the baptism of the Spirit is SEPARATE from the indwelling of the Spirit during regeneration (when you are saved). And it didn't mean to ask for gift of tongues, etc either from what I have been gathering...

They both believe (I think) this is also separate from how it's intepreted from the modern charismatic movement

I know there are cessationists here who would disagree with Chadwick/Lloyd-Jones, but I'm curious as to what folks think.

Brother wilkens21,

I don’t think anyone is ignoring you because we disagree with you ....but you should know that we have just come off the heels of like… 5 different threads on the baptism of the Holy Spirit! You just missed them but here they are…..

Truth about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=41571&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Baptism of the Holy Spirit
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41568&forum=34&5

Speaking in Tongues
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41360&forum=36&52

Counterfeit or Genuine Tongues?
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41535&post_id=301488&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#301488

Not all receive the Holy Spirit, because not all ask to receive it!
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41331&forum=36&32

It’s about 50/50 here on this issue but you might want to read through these threads to see where we stand and give us a month or two to regather our wits about us!!! (huge grin) lol

God bless you,
Lisa

Instead of going through these threads, ask God to give you the wisdom.

The only mark of Baptism of Holy Spirit is victory over sin. Which means if the Holy SPirit shows you a sin in your life that you did not know before, you should be able to overcome that sin and repent immediately. This does not mean that you will not have sin, we all still have so many unconscious sins in our life that we are not aware of. But if you are made aware of then you should be able to give it up immediately.
Judge yourself based on this to see where you stand. If you keep struggling with same sin again and again then you need Baptism of Holy Spirit.
Different people get this Baptism of Holy Spirit at different time. I got it when I hit the rock bottom of my struggles and I have heard men of God like Brother Zac Poonan saying that they got it when they hit the rock bottom as well.
But there are people who get this power immediately after their first Baptism, like sister Lisa here. This all makes be believe that God cannot be constrained to work in us in a specific way.

by Sree
The only mark of Baptism of Holy Spirit is victory over sin.

God bless you,
Lisa

by wilkens21 on 2011/11/17 11:48:38

Been reading Samuel Chadwick (Ravenhill's teacher at seminary), along with some of Martyn Lloyd-Jones' material.

As some of you know, they both believed that the baptism of the Spirit is SEPARATE from the indwelling of the Spirit during regeneration (when you are saved). And it didn't mean to ask for gift of tongues, etc either from what I have been gathering...

They both believe (I think) this is also separate from how it's intepreted from the modern charismatic movement

I know there are cessationists here who would disagree with Chadwick/Lloyd-Jones, but I'm curious as to what folks think.

Let's get your opinion on the matter!!

God bless,
Lisa

Brother, with all due respect but I've got to call you on this... where is the above quote found in Scripture?

To be frank I do not know any scripture that directly proves me right. It is an interpretation of different scriptures and mainly based on personal experience of Holy Spirit and his work.

John 14-16:-
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you

1 John 2-27:-
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Jesus says that the purpose of Holy Spirit is a helper for us to keep his commands. The Holy Spirit teaches us truth based on both the scriptures and though which we abide in him(Jesus). And Jesus said in John 8:32 that this truth will set us free. Free of What? Free of Sin that separated us from God before.

1 John 3-6:-
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

So the main purpose of Holy Spirit is to seal us with him. And based on John 3-6, if we are sealed or abide with him then we cannot live in Sin or in other words we will have victory over sin.

So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

Sree -

YOU STATED- So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

I RESPOND- It is specifically POWER to be a witness. Jesus states this exactly in Acts 1:8. IT STATES, " But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes UPON you; and you will be my WITNESSES in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

I think you, and many people, may not have caught the difference of the Spirit WITHIN and the Spirit UPON.

When a person is born again the Holy Spirit comes to abide WITHIN them. That is true for every believer. A fruit of the Spirit that is born of the Holy Spirit living within us is self control. Taking dominion (self control) over sinfulness (as you related) is certainly a fruit born of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

However, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a totally different issue. It has nothing to do with our salvation. It is a anointing of power UPON us. This power is not for us...it is for OTHERS. We are empowered to BE witnesses.

It is important to note the differences in scripture of the Holy Spirit WITHIN us and the Holy Spirit UPON us. They are different things given for different reasons. One is to develop Christlikeness and character within our lives. The other is to enable us to effectively minister to others.

Duncan Campbell, the key figure in the Hebrides Revivals, has several messages on this very thing on the site. I would encourage you to perhaps hear those. In addition.. simply read the book of Acts and note the differences of when it says the Holy Spirit was WITHIN or UPON them and what the differences were. Then read the New Testament as a whole looking for the same things. It will revolutionize your understanding of the ministry of The Holy Spirit. He is such a wonderful strengthener, encourager, revealer of what is needed, empowerer of us to do what is needed at the moment....He is The Paraclete and I love Him dearly.

CAPS were used only to emphasis certain words. No yelling was intended.

Blessings!

by Sree:
So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

My concern is not over any particular sign or signs of the Holy Spirit but with your original statement of, “THE ONLY MARK of Baptism of Holy Spirit is ....” Logically speaking, you are saying there is “ONLY ONE” sign of the baptism and it is on that point only that I disagreed with you.

You ended your first post in this thread with, “This all makes be believe that God cannot be constrained to work in us in a specific way.” And that’s all I’m trying to say brother! I believe it to be misleading to say there is only one sign and I don’t believe that God can be constrained to one sign.... that is all!

God bless you brother,
Lisa

PS: I've got to get ready for work... didn't want you to think I would ignore you if I don't answer!

Brother Solomon,

Thanks a lot for this post.
If I understand you correctly, the first Baptism is Holy Spirit coming inside to do the will of God and the 2nd baptism is Holy Spirit coming upon us like the time of OT like 'the spirit of Lord Came upon Samson'.

SO you must then agree with all my post because I have talked from the perspective of HolY Spirit living or abiding in us and bringing Christlikeness. So the proof of Holy Spirit LIVING INSIDE you is Christlikeness. Is it safe to say this?

Now my understanding of Acts 1:8-
Jesus says when you receive power from Holy Spirit, you will be my witness. There is a difference between BEING WINTESS and TO WITNESS. Being Witness means, your life itself is a witness for Jesus. It is not just the word you speak or share in streets or Church. It is whole life that will be a witness. If Jesus had said that you will witness me, then it means we will be able to talk about Jesus and testify about him everywhere without fear, similar to what you have quoted.
So according to be to Be A Witness for Jesus (to live a life witnessing Jesus) is much higher standard and requires higher power than to just go and preach in streets. By saying this I am not reducing the value of testifying about Jesus to others. I have seen many who can preach powerful sermons but their inner life is nothing like Jesus.
I just posted my understanding of Acts 1:8. I am not posting to oppose your view or to hurt you.

hi, in justification it is clear that the Holy spirit emerses you in Jesus which is the fulfillment of passover. in the fulfillment of pentacost, Jesus emmerses you in the Holy Ghost luke 3:16 . the biblical promise is you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you. as recorded in many places in acts this was accompanied by other evidences... that what we see and hear...a few times it was unknown tongues as evidence...we are never to seek evidence,but seek the Holy Spirit and all or anything that He might fuel us with... i see no problem with seeking all that God has for you as you walk out your life with Him on the earth.jimp

Baptism of the Holy Spirit...should we ask for it?

As Jesus said, ‘he is with us but he SHALL BE in us’ to me that points to a second baptism. So yes, wilkens21, we should ask for Him and EXPECT to receive Him. I would hope that you would post what you believe too!

God bless,
Lisa

Sorry I've been slow in responding and thanks for the responses. I almost regretting asking the question after hitting the submit button to be honest.

This is not really a discussion in my opinion about tongues/healings (at least from my mind).

I actually had a roommate who prayed in tongues and his family got involved with that holy laughter/toronto airport stuff (which I believe is not from the Lord), and visited charismatic churches and have seen (what I think are) supernatural things. So I've seen these "gifts" abused and put me more on the cessationist camp for my years as a Christian.

Anyway, I was listening to John Piper's biography of Martyn Lloyd-Jones which got me thinking about this more. If you have an hour, listen to it, it's a very good, balanced approach to what he (MLJ) thought. And MLJ is considered very orthodox from my understanding:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/a-passion-for-christ-exalting-power

And was reading Samuel Chadwick's The Way to Pentecost which is a free book you can download from various places. It's a good book I think, and I like L Ravenhill a lot so was curious about what his seminary teacher and the man who helped shaped his ministry thought.

I know MLJ battled folks who he thought were "quenching" the Spirit. MLJ wasn't about tongues/miracles either in terms of what I "think" he was getting at with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I think he thought it was seperate from regeneration.

But MLJ also saw the modern charismatic movement in his day as lacking since doctrine/repentance wasn't high on the list. I think he'd throw up if he saw what was happening now with the Word of Faith stuff....

Back to the point...

Reading the biography about Brother Yun (The Heavenly Man), and seeing unbelieveable miracles/signs in the midst of deep persecution that we in the West DO NOT go through. How do I reconcile that, are they from God or not? I am not sure I can do easily dismiss from a cessationist point of view that these are not real miracles.

Who am I to say the Lord has stopped doing anything when we in the West don't suffer like those who are in complete darkness. I cannot say that.

To be honest, I am not sure what I am asking and have been praying about it quite a bit.

I want to grow and mature, and for many years have been praying that the Spirit as "power" rather than a Person. Which I think is wrong on my part, and Chadwick's book has been helping me to think differently.

The question is does the baptism of the Holy Spirit, give a deeper insight into Who the Lord is (without seeking the power like people do for the wrong reasons)? Is it seperate from regeneration? Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

wilkens21
Reading the biography about Brother Yun (The Heavenly Man), and seeing unbelievable miracles/signs in the midst of deep persecution that we in the West DO NOT go through. How do I reconcile that, are they from God or not? I am not sure I can do easily dismiss from a cessationist point of view that these are not real miracles.

Who am I to say the Lord has stopped doing anything when we in the West don't suffer like those who are in complete darkness. I cannot say that.

About your cessationist leaning... this is why I don’t believe in labels or boxes... because if God steps off the beaten path of our label, we’re lost!

Back to your point of no miracles in the west....I was reading a book by Mahesh Chavda on fasting and he said something that I have repeated several times to different people.... “People would ask him why God doesn’t do the miracles here in the west that He does in the third world countries and he said, ‘because the west has health insurance.’” You may not like the man himself but that statement is a profound and true statement... we have no need to seek God first because we run to the doctors.

And to me personally, America’s health care crisis has had me wondering if this crisis is not Obama’s doings but God’s doing... trying to re-center us again around Him. Everyone’s clamoring for health insurance when they should be clamoring around His cross and His word. If the Word of God is good enough to live by then it’s good enough to die by; correct?

wilkens21
The question is does the baptism of the Holy Spirit, give a deeper insight into Who the Lord is (without seeking the power like people do for the wrong reasons)? Is it separate from regeneration? Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience although it doesn’t have to be. Let me explain, I have heard of some who have been born again AND received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues) at the same time. But if you’ve already been born again and THEN have heard about it and you seek it, then to you it will be a separate experience.

wilkens21
Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

These are just my experiences and what the Lord has shown me, I hope you receive all your answers from the Lord.
God bless you,
Lisa

Edited so hopefully it makes more sense!! LOL (

i believe men like weasly ,whitfield ,and edwards ,were cesasenists,,,,,but undoubtly experanced the baptism of the spirit ,revivel followed those men ,and they new the power of god

how i understand it is weasly believed in the seconed blessing , whitfied believed the seconed blessing was the true new birth ,and was realy the first true blessing ,,,,but denied certaint gifts of the holy spirit ,,,,that was the common stand ,was only to denie certaint miraculas and sign gifts

they didnt believe in toungs ,nor that a person could have a special gift of healing ,but they believed god could stil heal

well this is too my knowlage

iv never heard of a calvinist dening all of the gifts of the spirit

The thread question was-

Baptism of the Holy Spirit... should we ask for it?

Scripture Responds - If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to THOSE WHO ASK HIM? Luke 11:13 NIV

Simple enough isn't it?

If a person wants it... then they should ask for it!

Lysa is spot on concerning her thoughts on having experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

To quote Leonard Ravenhill on the same thought he often stated, " A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument".

Blessings!

(caps mine for emphasis only - no yelling was intended)

may I suggest this as reading material on the subject

Straight to the point and sound for doctrine
should be mandatory reading for every true believer

Mortification by John Owen

http://www.oldlandmarks.com/owmortto.htm

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience although it doesn’t have to be. Let me explain, I have heard of some who have been born again AND received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues) at the same time. But if you’ve already been born again and THEN have heard about it and you seek it, then to you it will be a separate experience.

If I remember correctly, she would instruct people BEFORE they got saved that they were going to say the sinner’s pray and then they would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues or prophesy! And they would be saved and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit!! I think she talks about it in her sermon “Chasing the Dragon Part 1 and 2.”

And I know personally of one who experienced this, my cousin gave his life to the Lord one minute and was speaking in tongues the next and worshiping the Lord!

I'm coming to believe that when we only provide ½ of God’s provisions for a new born babe, then ½ is what they’ll receive and shame on us if ½ is only what we give them.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=117

God bless,
Lisa

no it is for this thread also, after all that is the purpose for the Holy Spirit. So why would question the need for the Holy Spirit or segment HIS ways and means of accomplishing HIS purpose?

After all salvation is about conversion, being changed from Glory to Glory,taking up our cross and following HIM, death to all that is not HIM, and being conformed into HIS image.

Without the Spirit all one is left with is a deception of going some place.

What Christian wouldn't want it?

It's not a matter of "asking" but "appropriating" !!!!

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

"Judge yourself based on this to see where you stand. If you keep struggling with same sin again and again then you need Baptism of Holy Spirit."

I dont think the Baptism gives a believer a leg up in the battle against sin, I beleive that a life of holiness is a function of the indwelling of the Spirit.

THe baptism is another function that empowers beleivers.
.
I say this from personal experience.
I thought after the baptism I had something to help me fight sin more but I then I was humbled when I realized I didnt, it was still the same struggle. God has been showing that I need to let Him into more areas of my life in order for me to gain victory.

Though these things are separate I beleive that they are CONNECTED

Power and Purity!
interesting that Paul says to TImothy a Spirirt of Power, Love and self discipline.

In that order

I think just like a clogged up pipe will hinder the amount of water that can go through and contaminate it

likewise a vessel that is not pure and set apart will do the same thing when he/she ministers. THe person receiving will get both the flaws of the person and God and this will be conter productive

hi,now lets see; do i want more of God in my life? mmmm do i want more from God in my life?mmmm hard question if you don't know God.jimp

Quote: I dont think the Baptism gives a believer a leg up in the battle against sin, I beleive that a life of holiness is a function of the indwelling of the Spirit.

This statement is a oxymoron as you contradict what your saying “life of holiness is a function of the indwelling of the Spirit” meaning to me if you have the Holy Spirit then you should be able to live a Holy Life and “I dont think the Baptism gives a believer a leg up in the battle against sin” if the Holy Spirit empowers you to live a Holy life then should have the upper hand against sin?

See in the scripture below two different times that the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Know what I believe and I include myself in what I write is that most Chritains have “Received the Holy Spirit” but have not been “filled with Holy Spirit”

John 20:21-22 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2: 2-4 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I come to that conclusion when I look at my heart and the way I live, as I believe if you have the Holy Spirit then you should live a Holy Life, I should be one who loves God with all his heart and loves people like he loves himself.. but I find I don’t live that life and I put “myself” first rather than God or people…

By Gods grace before going to church (It was 2 months later that I went) I received the Spirit, before getting into bed I said a simple prayer “God change me as I am fed up being this way” when I lay on the bed a physical wind left me and another physical wind blew into me after which I sat up and spoke in a unknown tounge…from that point in my life I started to change, now I do not write that testimony to boast but to let you know a bit of my background…

So I find that my life is a oxymoron a contradiction why because I have received the Holy Spirt but don’t live a Holy life…So the fault can’t be with God so the fault must be with me and what I believe.
This why I have come to change my thinking as I didnt really have what I thought I had…

Acts 15:8-9 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

If I had been filled with the Holy Spirit I should have a clean heart, but I cannot claim to have a pure heart, I cannot claim to have to be have given the Holy Spirit and that he has cleansed my heart by faith as Paul said to the Corinthians “If I speak with tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal, And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”

Love suffers long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil. beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things Love never faileth.

I do not suffer long, I have unkind thoughts, I envy, I do promote myself, I do have have pride, I seek my own way, I can be provoked, I hold grudges, I don’t bear all things, I don’t believe all things, hope fails, I try to escape rather than endure.

So I must come to the conclusion that “I AM NOTHING”

Should I ask for the Holy Spirit yes for sure but I ask that he would come and cleanse my heart by faith, that I would walk in the more excellent way as love is the fulfilment of the law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. Rom 8:2

Free from the law of sin and of death now that sounds like a leg up against sin………..

That the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:4 Love is the fulfilment of the law, God comes first we love him with all our heart, we love people just like ourselves this happens when the Holy Spirit cleanses the heart by faith. The Holy Spirit puts away anger, wrath, malice, railing and he puts on a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another and above all these things he puts on love, which is the bond of perfectness.

Hey murrcolr

I think you may have misunderstood what I am saying?

Quote:
"This statement is a oxymoron as you contradict what your saying “life of holiness is a function of the indwelling of the Spirit” meaning to me if you have the Holy Spirit then you should be able to live a Holy Life and “I dont think the Baptism gives a believer a leg up in the battle against sin” if the Holy Spirit empowers you to live a Holy life then should have the upper hand against sin?"

Basically yes Holy Spirit enables you to live Holy.
BUT what Im saying is that as you said there is a difference between receiving the HS and being filled (Baptised)they do not always come together (as mentioned before)

Everyone receives the HOly Spirit when they are truly born again this is what allows someone to live Holy and grow into holiness!This is the indwelling.

The Baptism of the Spirit (or filling) as you call it gives someone the POWER they need to be an effective witness

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 1:8

This is what is mentioned in Acts
Key word here is POWER the believers before this were clearly saved but had not received the POWER they needed.

I hope this clear things up?
SO what I am saying is that someone who has the Baptism is enpowered to witness but still has the same struggle or battle with sin as someone who is not.

It is sorta like this:
A soldier wearing armour and a soldier wearing armour with a sword

the armour on both is still the same but one can fight the other cannot and the one who fights has to be even more careful because he is in the battle and a threat to the enemy!
Two cars are started same make and model, both at full tank
On of the car ge

If I had been filled with the Holy Spirit I should have a clean heart, but I cannot claim to have a pure heart, I cannot claim to have to be have given the Holy Spirit and that he has cleansed my heart by faith as Paul said to the Corinthians “If I speak with tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal, And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”

Just to add apoint, Baptism of Holy Spirit is an everyday activity, you need to seek it everyday. Then only we have have a powerful testimony that will bare fruits for God.

I also encourage everyone to listen to this sermon by Brother Zac Poonan on Baptism of Holy Spirit.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19838

I think many people may not have caught the difference of the Spirit WITHIN and the Spirit UPON in scripture.

When a person is born again the Holy Spirit comes to abide WITHIN them. That is true for every believer. A fruit of the Spirit that is born of the Holy Spirit living within us is self control. Taking dominion (self control) over sinfulness is certainly a fruit born of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

However, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a totally different issue. It has nothing to do with our salvation. It is a anointing of power UPON us. This power is not for us...it is for OTHERS. We are empowered to BE witnesses.

It is important to note the differences in scripture of the Holy Spirit WITHIN us and the Holy Spirit UPON us. They are different things given for different reasons. One is to develop Christ likeness and character within our lives. The other is to enable us to effectively minister to others. That is why there have been some who exhibited great ministry power yet were not of great fruit and character in their life. AA Allen was mentioned...there are many, many more...think in terms of Samson as a Biblical example. Conversely there are many with great fruit and character within their lives that exhibit none of the ministry power of God at all. It should be obvious that God wants us to be people bearing much fruit of the Spirit accompanied by great power of the Spirit to reach the world in His name. It isn't a "this OR that"..God wants it to be a "this AND that".

It is VERY fruitful in this area for a person to do a study of The Holy Spirit WITHIN and compare it to references to The Holy Spirit UPON.

It seems to me that the vast majority of misunderstanding on this topic comes from not understanding this distinction. Go through the Gospels, and the book of Acts, marking each time each one is referenced. Note what the purpose was for in that case and what circumstances or scripture insights surround it in the text. You will begin to find a marked difference in the Spirit WITHIN and the Spirit UPON.

Perhaps I am getting old and a bit cynical... but I fear that not one person will actually do the work and due diligence to follow through on the suggestion. Although it is certainly wisdom to do so, I fear very few will actually extract the balance of truth about this topic from The Gospels and Acts. I genuinely hope so... however, my experience has been that virtually no one does that. They simply continue to give their preconceived opinions and look for a proof text to support what they have already decided to believe.

Forgive me if that is overly negative or pessimistic. I do not want it to be. However, Greg's thread a few days ago about the lack of unity spoke to my heart and it seems that this is one of those topics.

If you do a study such as this also take note of the examples of one "baptism" and multiple "fillings" to the same people in Acts.

Blessings.

Hey Solomon101,

Thank you for your explanation it was very helpful!
I have noted the differences between in and upon in the bible. More so comparing and contrasting OT vs NT but thank you for pointing that out it has opened my eyes to see it within the NT as well definitely a new dimension in God's Word I did not see before!.

With what Solomon101 said in mind
Might I ask the question

How does one grow both in holiness and power?
This is an area I struggle with and for myself I think that I cannot bring myself to minister if I am not living holy though the gifting is still in me.

As mentioned before some people had one more than the other.... but both are needed!

You advice through the Spirit would be very much appreciated!

In Christ
Evangel

This power is not for us...it is for OTHERS. We are empowered to BE witnesses.

With all respect for you,

I would encourage you to read this word that you yourself marked in bold carefully, which is to BE witness (Acts 1:8). Jesus did not mention that we will BEAR witness to him; he said we will BE his Witness. There is a difference between two, to BE a witness means we will be a living witness in other words our being itself is a witness. To bear witness means we will witness the work of Jesus in our words for others as noted by you.

That is why there have been some who exhibited great ministry power yet were not of great fruit and character in their life

Such scenarios are possible but neither such a person nor his ministry is any value to God. For example if I myself is not saved from Sin which means the life of Jesus is not working in me, then with the power of my presentation skills I try to present this life to others in my ministry, then it is like wrapping up a CD Player that is NOT WORKING for me in a nice attractive GIFT WRAP and presenting it to others. They may accept that gift because of external attraction but when they try to use it, it will not work for them as well. How is God getting benefitted by such work?

There are so many such preachers today in our midst. I have witnessed few in this forum as well. The problem with all of them is after they received the power they failed to abide with Jesus to use this power for being his witness, instead they used it only for baring witness, why because they get paid for such powerful words that they deliver, popularity etc. Again it is the problem with people who fail to use the power correctly instead of God not empowering them.
Brother Zac Poonan clearly talks about these scenarios in the message that I have posted in this thread.

Such scenarios are possible but neither such a person nor his ministry is any value to God

What do you mean by this? As in that person cannot be used by God or is not loved by Him?

If this is so I disagree since every person who has been called by God to ministered and thus received power from God is His workmanship. He is the one who refines them as He sees fit. For some He may decided to refine them in purity and keep them obscure for serveral years, for others he may empower them and throw them into ministry right away with great success and power and refine them as they go.

I know of many different testimonies of servants called by God who have gone through many different circumstances.

For example David Wilkerson received power and had and awesome testimony that impacted so many ppl but afterward he fell away for a time because he got caught up in the fame (you can listen to his testimony under the video section of this web page called "losing the annointing" or something like that)

I was very confused, upset and angry on this for the longest time. I would come across minsiters who God had clearly used in powerful ways and was still using! (eg. The SPirit came upon them in the middle of a night club and they started to preach to the crowd and many repented) I would also gain much insight from their teaching and preaching BUT at the same time I was also very hurt by their character or some of the things they said. This confused me and brought me to prayer.

God was teaching me that I cannot judge His servant because He is the one working on them in the way He wants. He knows what He wants that servant to do and He moulds them accordingly.

Recently I was reading the testimony of Praying Hyde and something that stuck out to me from the book is that many times we are like people who go into a carpenters workshop and critize His unfinished projects and comment on how ugly they are before we see what the end product is. The carpenter angrily goes of its ugly its not done yet, but I am working on it and still treasure it because it my masterpiece!

I hope this helps those who read this and may be confused about the same thing.

What do you mean by this? As in that person cannot be used by God or is not loved by Him?

All I am saying is neither this person nor his ministry is pleasing to God. I never talked about God's love. God loves sinners, that is why Jesus had food with them and interacted with them, but if they (tax collectors) had asked him he would have plainly said that he is not pleased with their life.

every person who has been called by God to ministered and thus received power from God is His workmanship. He is the one who refines them as He sees fit. For some He may decided to refine them in purity and keep them obscure for serveral years, for others he may empower them and throw them into ministry right away with great success and power and refine them as they go.

I completely agree with this point. I am not telling you that God will make us sinless and then give us power to minister people. We are all work in progress by God and he is perfecting all of us. What I am telling here is God will empower us to overcome Sins that we know are sins. For example a person who receives Baptism of Holy Spirit will not continue to live in same sin, he will receive Power to overcome that sin. There might be many unconscious sin in him but as he knows each and every sin in his life he will readily overcome them. In other words he will keep looking into the life of Jesus everyday and whenever he finds a difference he will immediately overcome the difference because he has power now.

In short after we receive Baptism of Holy Spirit, we will get power to give our life control to Holy Spirit for using it both internally and externally for his good purpose. Internally for sanctification and externally for his ministry.

In the case of David Wilkerson, I am not sure how he fell away but I believe it is possible for a man who received Baptism of Holy Spirit to fall. It is because we stop relaying on his Power. But neither did David's life nor his ministry would have pleased God during THAT PERIOD in which he had this un-repented sin.

Jesus himself said you can identify a good teacher by his fruits and not by his gifts. We all need this discernment.

Thanks for your clarification it was helpful.

In Christ
Evangel

Sree wrote:
They may accept that gift because of external attraction but when they try to use it, it will not work for them as well. How is God getting benefitted by such work?

Ro 11:29 “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” No ifs, ands or buts!

That verse means that when God gives a gift, He doesn’t change His mind. If God does takes back the gifts He gives then they are not ‘gifts’ but conditional loans. Even if we misuse the gifts of God or the calling of God, HE DOES NOT TAKE THEM AWAY, now we are accountable for what we do with them. It may not seem right to us mere human beings but this is how God operates.

But that’s just my two cents worth and the understanding the Lord has given me.

God bless,
Lisa

I guess there is a huge misunderstanding here. The gift I quoted is the CD player that is not working for me and when I wrap it beautifully and then present it to someone, they might accept the gift (CD player) attracted by the beauty of outside wrap but it will not work for them as well.
Here the non working CD player is my Christian life in which I still have unrepented sins like Pride or immorality.
The gift wrap is the power of preaching or a gift of God for me. And the people accepting the gift are the people I minister Christ to.

I guess there is a huge misunderstanding here.

God bless you brother,
Lisa

removed