Why no dancing?

Hi there guys,

Just a quick question. I've listened to and read through a fair few things on Holiness over the years and a line of thought presented by these preachers/writers keeps coming to mind. They often talk against dancing. Anyone know why?

I'm currently dating/courting a lovely Christian lady and we're looking to learn a bit of dancing such as salsa, waltz and these kind of things. We're also keen on maintaining a pure walk before God. We've both asked the question is dancing alright but I've never heard anyone defend a position either way for dancing being ok or not ok and why.

Any thoughts?

God bless

Mike

QUOTE:
" We're also keen on maintaining a pure walk before God. We've both asked the question is dancing alright but I've never heard anyone defend a position either way for dancing being ok or not ok and why."

Would dancing enhance your ability to maintain moral purity?

Apparently you are questioning it, so what are you sensing in your spirit?

Blaine, are you saying that people in general are opinionated and state it plainly??? :-)

I also think you need to lay this before the Lord and be open to what He thinks. I can tell you that a great deal of dance is very sensual or might I say sexual in nature. It might be argued that some is not and that it is simply fun and exercise, and perhaps that is true. Have you ever watched someone break dancing? However I do believe that there is a reason why the men and women of God who went before me were against it. Seek God and obey Him.

hi, i am 72 and have been dancing since i was 12 and a lot of it in competition around the country. been saved since i was 24. i have never been convicted from the Lord for salsa and swing etc.and have never had any sexual problems while at a studio or a dance event.in fact, i have felt more sexual activity at church. i would not bump or grind but ballroom dancing is fun and great exercise...i have met many fine christian people in the ballroom community.jimp

mmm, I debated whether to add anything to this conversation.
I had a youth pastor tell a group of youth that dancing was sinful because it led to sexual tendency. I told the pastor that if that were the case then there must be a bunch of sexual perverts in the church. There must be men and (women) who cannot control themselves? I think to myself, are christians really that weak and put ourselves in a box? Yeah, some dancing probably is a bit too much like lamba but things like ballroom dancing? Hip hop dancing?

In the end some people may be weak while others are stong. A christian has to understand the leading of the Spirit in these cases if they perceive themselves to be weak in these area. Otherwise we give much power to the power of sex and end up looking for sex even in the hidden corners-and then we wonder why people in the church come out as homosexual or a sexual deviant? Does any of this make sense?

I know that I for one, at times can be sexual stimulated by some forms of dance but it deals more with how much clothing is involved otherwise I watch the dance and maybe do the dance for the exercise or the entertainment of it. Do you think we can really put ourselves into such a box that we really don't allow ourselves to have any fun? Whether it is a form of dancing or something else? Could be A reason why many see the church as prunes to start with.

What do you think?

2 Samuel 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. All David had on was his underware.

What happened to Davids wife when she put David down for dancing?

Matthew 14:6-8 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod. Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask. And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.

All she had on were seven vails, which she took off.

You make the choice, respecting the leading of the Holy Spirit. Dancing to the Lord or dancing to the devil.

i think dancing generaly is sensualin nature

and should only be done with your spouse

or members of the same sex

brothers should be able to dance for joy with clothes on to the lord

i would not copy david he would have been a stubling block for other weak sisters

wile dateing i believe dancing is often ,an excuse to get up close and sensual ,and is surly dangerous

dont do it ,it will led to temptation because you are nomarly sexualy actracted to the one you date

dont make out you are in full self control,,,
especial if you are young ,and a relative new born christan

gard against the flesh in all areas ,,especial in the area of dateing

dont get too close an awaken youthfull lusts

to be total honest dateing is not bibical anyway

so watch out when you copy the worlds way

and remember you never lernt the art of dating from any godly example in scripture

Oh please, do you guys honestly think that Jesus didn't dance to the Jewish folk songs (edit: with males and females), like the song, "Hava Nagila"... really? Let's be realistic.

God bless,
Lisa

Dancing brings the devil glory, just like ice cream and Pizza.

where does the bible say that he did lisa

jewish traditions are not above the scripture

hi, if you think that dancing is of the devil than don't dance or watch dancing on tv.if you think that tv is of the devil, then work on your computer.if you think that computers are linked to the antichrist than give it away.if you think long hair is satanic then get a hair cut. are you picking up on what i am trying to say. i am so old that mixed bathing(swimming)was forbidden as a youth.one day we will realize that it is not about any of this ...it is about our love for Jesus and each other.jimp

Unless you're my son-in-law not with my daughter!

1 Cor. 7:1,2 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: it is good for a man not to be touching a woman. But because of such sexual sins, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.

For clarity:

it is good for a man not to touch a woman; which is to be understood, not of merely touching a woman, which can neither be criminal, nor in all cases inexpedient, or be attended with any ill, or dangerous consequences; nor of the matrimonial contract, which is lawful and honourable; but of the act of carnal copulation with a woman: in this sense the Jews use the phrase. Gill

1 Tim. 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Most will understand my point!

lol let not go there jimp

mixed bathing wheres that practicd in the bible my gosh

next thing we will hear strip clubs are ok

thers no difference at going down the beach ,to going to a strip club in australia ,,80 percent are just flaunting them self in aspirit of vainity

every thing under the sun is vainity

and they all find it strange that you dont run with them in the same flood of disipatation
all that is in the world the lust of the eyes tthe pride of life is not of the father ,but is of the world
and the world is passing away

friendship with the world is enmity with god

our liberty is not excuse to partisapate with the worlds games

what is highly estemed amoung men
is anabomination in the eyes of god ,,the bible says

and brethern ,im staying with the bible,,and am in the habit of as the bible says forsake this life

and loving not the gliters of life of which are passing away

lol had to get that off my chest ,,we are in the world but not of the world

hi, listen to the sermon here called revival on the isle of lewis.bro. campbell preached at the church and nothing happened in the church but the Holy Spirit fell on a teen dance a mile away...amazing for the God we serve to show up at the dance.jimp

lol gods power to save sinners

iv seen the power of god fall on a young man in a night club drugs ang drinking and fornacation and lust was everwhare

does not justfie the sin but sets free from it

it could happen in a brothel in anawkeng ,,but that doesnt mean god justafies the sin

yea jimp ,,iv herd the sermom ,,,,,,amasing revivle ,and a great man god was dunken

im not sure if this is the same awkening ,,bbut when ships turned up to the docks ,,the power of god would come down upon a ship ,with conviction sin ,,with only a hand full of christans on board ,,,man there was some power in gods hand ,,,,i want that to hapen in my town

A year ago June I went to Wisconsin to celebrate my aunts 50th wedding anniversary. She is the only person on mom's side who has never divorced and she married at 16 years old. While there they did some dancing. I danced with mom, my aunt, even a couple of female cousins. Had I danced with someone who wasn't my cousin would it have been a big deal? If I didn't know the person maybe but it wouldn't have been from sexing up the person. My wife was there, she is limited in dancing because of a medical issue we are working on.

When I was younger I did some square dancing in school. I wasn't a christian then but let's say I was. Is that really considered a sinful act?

I personally think christians becomes scared of themselves and in order to deal with that fear they label things as bad, as sinful. THE Westboro baptist church symbolizes that. Their whole platform says God hate fags when in reality is that they probably have a fear of homosexuals and as a result they act upon that fear. You never see them picket divorcees or anything that the bible considers sinful other than homosexuals and thing pertaining to it. The same with this posting.

yeah, I am a bit passionate with this because some christians want to lock everyone up if they think certain things are wrong when the truth is it is a weak area in certain lives of certain people.

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW YOUR WEAKNESS THEN YOU ARE MOST AT RISK but if you know your weakness why should you fear, you should be mature enough to stay away from that areas that cause you to fall otherwise you are just fooling yourself and extending that foolishness to others when it is really you who are trouble.

Does that make sense?

hi, if you think dancing ballroom is sensual then you have never danced ballroom.your mind is on the dancing part and leading or following your partner.walking down the street is sensual if that is your mindset.if your heart is full of pent up desires then anything you do is wicked because you brought it with you in your heart.jimp

We are more confident in the devils ability to pervert than God's ability to sustain. Don't call unclean what the Lord has made clean, lots of opinions on here, but no one really has a biblical reason we can't dance...because there is none. You're free in Christ to dance if you wish, but you're also free not to. Is it really necessary to mention dancings "sensual" nature? If you're following Christ I think it's obvious this isn't what you want to participate in. Are we REALLY so out of touch with the spirit inside of us that we can't dance with a loved one without sinning? How do you intend on surviving
in a world so full of perversion if you're not even able to dance without sin? Exercise the faith you have in what Christ has done for you, his spirit lives inside of you, he will tell you if he minds you dancing, if he won't guide us in this trivial matter than how can he guide us anywhere?

brothagary wrote:
where does the bible say that he did lisa

jewish traditions are not above the scripture

It doesn’t say expressly he danced but we know that he came ‘eating and drinking’ and they called him a drunkard and a glutton. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s a stretch that he danced. He definitely wasn’t a Pharisee standing in the corner with his nose up in the air judging others as they did these things.

The scriptures say He was fully God and fully man; AND brother, I didn’t say danced inappropriately because we know that he never sinned; I just said I believe that he took part in the Jewish folk dances; well, personally, I’m hoping He did.

God bless,
Lisa

by Lotis:
but no one really has a biblical reason we can't dance...because there is none. You're free in Christ to dance if you wish, but you're also free not to.

God bless,
Lisa

martyr,
I do appreciate your Godly counsel.

Isn't that what Sermon Index is all about?

Godly counsel...?
But what is Godly counsel ?
Would it not be ,what the WORD says in a matter?

Consitering :John 1:1 `God is the WORD'
Ungodly counsel: opinions without the WORD.

Isn,t Jesus ~The Great Shepperd of the sheep?
He says,`my sheep hear My Voice, and they follow Me.

When Paul first came to the Lord ,and he was following HARD after his own way,
He recconized the voice, ...the drawing of annother way..and he asked(Acts 9:6) `Lord, What wilt Thou have me to do?' I believe Paul continued to ask the Lord that question,(by his writtings),Don't we ?

(Paul said,For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,They are the sons(children) of God.

In His love,
Elizabeth

im hearing you lisa

i see bibilcal reasons not to drink wine or eat meat that might make a brother or sister stumble

not that wine is evil
nor is dancing evil

but our liberty is not ther to stumble the weak in christ

or stumble the ungodly in to lusting

corinthans is a firm example of this

we shouold allways have others in mind ,and care about what might happen to them

boasting in our liberty ,and stubling others in the practice of our freedom in christ ,,,,,this is not good brethern

you all no quite well that paul taught against stumbling others in our freedom

lets boast in this that by the grace of god i will do all i can do to never help our presious brothers and sisters
stumble

as a woman for instance i will never take a baby sister in christ dancing,,for if she has the concence of the senseualness,, it might led her to back in to her old ways temt her to be senual, and led her astay ,the one for whom christ died ,,,and will never take a baby boy in christ , to a place and dance with him ,becasue it my cause him to lust after me ,and other girls who are skantly dressed

what is not of faith is sin

is this dancing we do a faithfilled act of worship toward god in the spirit ,,,if it is halilua ,,,ill dance to that

is it a wordly pleasure wraped in the claim to liberty ,and seasoned with boasting

i pray we might ask god to surch our hearts

im not at all against the joy of dancing ,in a godly contex

but brethern i beg you to put the weak ones and the sinners in first place above and beoned our liberty and freedom

the bible does teach this ,,if others want to ignore the princaples taught by paul,,,,,i wont argue about ,tho i may weep to god ,, for i once was a weak brother subjest to a defiled concence due to liberty ,,,,,and at times i still am ,,i know theres others sisters and brothers who will benefit from our puting them first and our freedom last ,,,for the glory christ an for the sake of the elect

hi, what weak ones are at a ballroom studio?who knows a person and his wife is dancing to be offended?this is really nonsense. goodnight.love you all.

thats realy the main point i agree marter

what does the bible say about practicing pagan activites in pagan places ,run by pagan people

Are you saying that dancing is pagan activity?

I'm currently dating/courting a lovely Christian lady and we're looking to learn a bit of dancing such as salsa, waltz and these kind of things.

Of all the activities young couples do together these days, I commend you for your interest in ballroom dancing. That's an activity that takes maturity! Ballroom dancing helps you learn to give and take as a couple. It takes a lot of skill. It has artistic beauty when done well - when you get past the clumsy stage. It is a good way to build your relationship because you must learn to work together and be sensitive to each other. It requires a sensitivity to music. Dancing can help keep you fit; it’s good for your cardiac; it build your coordination, balance, elegance, rhythm, It releases endorphins – which is important for your wellbeing. It corrects clumsiness and poor proprioception.

Ohhh … and this is generally not where the riffraff of society hang out. That’s another kind of dancing – where you don’t want to go!

Of course, you could also go to the fitness club - but you don’t have the artistic beauty. And I think that would be more work than fun.

It’s tragic when the devil tries to steal all the music and dancing. God’s people danced in the bible. The body is made to dance, and benefits from dancing. You see it in cultures all over the world.

I grew up strict reformed where dancing (but not smoking) was forbidden. The Baptists forbade it too. But, now I’m Presbyterian – and they don’t have an issue with it. Some of the older folk are fabulous ballroom dancers. I’ve seen them at weddings. I only wish they would get a little more animated about singing in church!!!!

Diane

Oh... another thought:

Once when I was in a terrible quandary over a decision, a friend said, "God's arm is not too short." Then I realized that I needed to stop being so frozen in anxiety about doing the right thing on that matter. God is perfectly able to reorder my steps. He has done it many times.

Surely for you too, you can be sure that God's arm is not too short. As you go along in life, he will often change your direction and redirect your interests - for his purposes in your life. He is quite capable of dealing with his children.

Diane

lol thats funny dude ,,marter
are you realy telling me that those dances you mentioned ,were envented by christan filled with the holy spirit ,,,,,,nexts your going to tell me that the salsa ,is a gift of the holy spirit

where in the bible does it says hose dances are holy dances
lol you allawys say the bible is where we shold get our information from

what about gambeling that is ok to ,im sure some christans gamble ,,,,,,what about night clubs

hang on lets go to a chiken fight and bet some of gods money on who wins lol after we all go dancing at the bar or glamor ball,,,,,lol i go get my tuxedo ready ,,,then we can go whatch the boxing,,,,lol what a joke lol

yea lock it brothers ,the bible speaks for it self

brothergary.

By your analogy, no one should use a computer, since the computer has, more then likely, caused more people to sin each and every day then anything else in this world.

Why are you using a computer? I still haven't seen any biblical evidence to back up that all dancing is pagan, including King David dancing...

brothers for the sake of krisspy and aproved ill make this my last comment they think we should stop talking about so,, i bow out of this brothers

i wasnt geting angry at you marter , ,i hope you dont see it like that

miccah ,,paul used this prinicaple regading meat and vegatables ,and wine ,,,he said he would no longer drink wine or eat meat, if it grieved his weak brothers

i was apling this to dancing using scripture from romans 14 and scripture in corininthans,,,,,,both scriture was teaching about not using the liberty we have make our brothers stumble , but both in slighty differnt contexs

about your computer ,,,,,if your weak brother ,get rid it ,dont risk the teptation it can bring ,,,and dont bye a compter for a weak brother who has had a past of pornogarphy ,it might casue him to stumble

miccah brother ,if you read my post ,i never said that all dancing is pagan ,,,some people dance in the spirit for joy ,,,,,,,,idont think we should do what david did ,and dance in our underware in front of the church ,do you, lol

hey marter ,,the bible is silent on gambling and taking prescription drugs from the doctor ,,,our liberty doesnt extend as far as what the bible is silent , on ,

does our activites keep our minds on the heavenly things ,,and is it of faith , what is not of faith is sin ,,,,,these bible verses shut the door on much of what people use there so called liberty for ,or what they persue in there blessed pass time

many of the revivelest of old were all against amusments , for this reason ,,and these men were full of the holy goast

bless you all ,,dont be too angry at me ,our brother asked a question ,iwas trying to give and answer ,,,thats all

Could it be as simple as, “whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven?”

If a person against dancing binds it on earth, then Christ will bind it in heaven for them and if a person for ballroom dancing looses it on earth then Christ will loose it in heaven for them.

What a concept, Christ lets us decide. Argument over!!

God bless,
Lisa

Mike,

I did not read all the replies to your question, just a few. I have not followed the discussion here because I was not able to handle it due to a bout with the flu. But it has been on my mind.

I applaud you for asking the questions. I sense you really do want to know the truth and since this is the case I will try to share what I understand to be God's truth in this matter. Unfortunately this post will be long.

I am very passionate about this issue and here is why. I have worked as a counselor at a Crises Pregnancy Center for 15 years. We not only worked to help those in a crises pregnancy, we were also required to do chastity counseling besides share the Gospel. We were expected to be aggressive and so we all were. AND I am also a grandmother to 11 and birthed 5 children, married for 44 years. I have seen life and, brother, the devil is just as much alive today as he was when we were teens 45+ years age. He has not changed his tactics at all; he may be more sophisticated, hoodwinked a lot of religious folks but his goals remain the same and that is to subvert God's beautiful plan for males and females.

If you will not read any further, please go to this site and listen to a lecture given by Pam Stenzel "Sex Has a Price Tag". I have personally seen her and heard this lecture in person, so I highly recommend it to all to give it a listen. There are six parts. Listen to them all. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFYPigFlp7w

OK, but what does this have to do with dancing?

I will admit to one thing: I know not much about dancing other then what I have read and seen on videos. I did a brief search on the web about the history of the modern dance and that was enlightening.

Dancing has been with humankind for thousands of years. Some dancing is beautiful, the movements all synchronized to music is lovely - a feast for the eyes. This requires much skill, dedication and work to master. You have folk dancing that looks like more games and fun. Then you have ballet which is likely the most sophisticated form there is. Then there are all the other different kinds, variations in between.

Romans 13:14 says "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." And you also have 1Corinthians 7:1: "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." What does this mean? Read it in its context - allow it to teach you. But what does this have to do with dancing? Simply put it means you should not put yourself into a place of vulnerability to temptation to sin. The modern dance does this.

In my search on the modern dance it spoke of its evolution in the 20 century of body movements and how the bodies move in sync with each other. Here you have two people, one a male and the other a female both moving in sync with each other. For marrieds this is fine but singles?

Perhaps it may be helpful to understand how males and females differ in sexual responses. Males respond to visual stimuli - they get turned on by visuals, hence the porn industry. They have milked this trait to the tune of billions of dollars - big money to be made here. Females, on the other hand, respond to touch. We like to cuddle, be handled physically - this turns us on, just like visual images do to a male.

In a modern dance with a male/female face to face you have both components at work, working to interest the other in you physically. And it is all considered fun. The guys will dress up in tuxedos (sometimes), the females will wear seductive clothes - all designed to get the fellow to 'like' you - for a moment. The stage is all set, the bodies, the mind, the emotions are all set to find its fulfillment in sexual intercourse. It is a play at sex. (Ever see cows, heifers how they act when they are in heat? Lot of similarities between them and humans!)

How about ballet? It is beautiful...but why do the males have to dress in tights? It is vulgar! It leaves nothing to the imagination! It is morbid, repulsive - all at the same time. It distracts from their skill...and what does it do to minds that want to remain pure? It defiles.

I have read testimonies from ballet dancers who have repented from dancing - saying they were exposed to things in the dressing room a person should never have seen. They were adamant about its vulgarity, vileness, immodesty and impurity.

Brother, I challenge you to consider how your desire for dance could lead you to sin, to fornication. You may not intend to, but it can set the stage for it to happen. The tragedy of it all is that there are adults out there who have chafed at the restrictions imposed on them when they were young and now feel they are at liberty to pursue these things and will encourage the youth to go for it! (Yes, we have encountered this mindset among parents who will do this very thing - allow social situations which encourages lust..)

Brother, I have no idea how old you and your lady friend are, but may I suggest you break with tradition and consider courting instead of dating? Joshua Harris wrote a lot about that. Take a look at his work on this issue.

I know this is long but I am concerned for you...I will tell you one story real quick.

I was PMing another poster here on SI a few years back - she no longer comes here. She told me how she counseled a young man to not dance, but he went ahead and did it anyways. He ended up fornicating, got a girl pregnant who he had no intentions of marrying. He was a youth leader in his church and now this girl is pregnant. He was in a dilemma, drove him about crazy. So, you see, it matters not how spiritual you are, you still have hormones and they work. Salvation does NOT cancel out the function of hormones! Including the ones that drive the instinct to reproduce. And yes, at our CPC we had single youth leaders as clients - people who never thought they would succumb to temptation, but they did.

This, sir, is my concern.

God bless..and be sure to listen to Pam Stenzels videos posted on YouTube. There are two versions, one for Christian schools and the other for public schools. The link I posted is where she addresses students at a Christian school.

ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"I always knew there was something satanic about dairy farms! ...lol"

Hey, boy, you learn a lot about life by watching nature, the similarities between species...:-)

Ever see what happens when a cat is in heat and the neighborhood tom is wanting to do his duty? and she is not thrilled about it? Oh, now, that gets funny - to us human, i.e., but not to the tom! lol

Hi Mike,
I would like to give some advice regarding your question.

1. Do you plan on dancing with your fiancee before or after you get married? I only ask because I know that some of these dances involve a lot of handling and physical contact which will definitely stir passions and desires. I would therefore never advice anyone to tango or salsa with anyone of the opposite sex who is not their spouse. I know this comes off as legalistic, but it is honestly for the sake of keeping your walk with Christ pure.

2. Consider the context of these classes. What are the ladies going to wear? What kind of music is used? I know a famous baptist preacher who says he never goes to public beaches because of what ladies wear there these days. I find this to be a very practical and godly point.

These were the first thoughts that came to mind when I read your question. I could go on and on...But do search the scriptures and pray for a concrete answer. A lot has been said on this forum!

Since this is a hit topic.....

Krispy said:

I always knew there was something satanic about dairy farms!

Sometimes the imagination is more the issue than the issue itself. May God give us pure imaginations!

Diane

You are the first person to EVER call me a "city slicker"!

I LOVE the smell of cow manure.

Ever have "milk shootouts"? I used to get my brother all the time.

I can’t remember if it was country or western music that she liked best – the two kinds that were on the radio those days.

…. Hope that’s sufficiently on topic.

Diane

Ginnyrose,

Your Reply (the long one) to Mike,I thought ,Had so much value.

However, I am really sorry I have ,Beforehand, commented on this

Topic when i see there are such loose thoughts and comments.

2Tim:15-16 says`Study to show thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the WORD of TRUTH.' (THis my thought to this dear brother)

But shun profane and vain babblings;for they will increase unto_>_>_>
_>_>more ungodliness.

Lovingly,..but exhorting,

Elizabeth

Approved,

Something smells, indeed.

RAM

_______________________
Wise ones do not quarrel, so no one can quarrel with one.
I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question!
Remember why we discuss and debate! All we have to lose are the errors we hold, and then we gain the truth! There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!

Elibeth,

It's ok. Do not fret. I appreciate your presence on this forum. Humor does raise its head at times and sometimes it works... to get the point across...

Elizabeth, I still stand by what I wrote... and I cannot for the life of me understand why some would encourage the young to play with temptation, but I do know we all will have to give account to God. It doesn't matter if your are a Calvinist or an Armenian or a Catholic or a Baptist or a Pentecostal or....

God bless you, my dear....

ginnyrose

Is this milking it for all its worth.

Surely that’s a useful object lesson.

Diane

I think the holiness preachers spoke up against dancing only because they are speaking about it as a worldly thing. Usually with dancing, it refers to night club dancing, worldliness, and the sort. That can lead into all sorts of immorality.
David did dance before the Lord upon the return of the ark, and that was the reason he danced before the congregation. This is different.
The born-again believer is told to "make his/her calling and election sure", "strive to enter the straight gate", etc, etc.
Christ Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Also we are told to "quench not the spirit", and "those that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."
I don't think it's wrong to dance with your wife when you're at home, or at a wedding, or family reunion.
I do personally know how easy it is to fall into the pit of sin. If I have a girlfriend, I'm not gonna put myself in a situation where we can become more intimate, and I can hold her body and touch her in a sensual way. Why? Because I'm not married to her, I respect her, and I fear the Lord too much. One thing always leads to another, whether its with God, or whether it's with walking the tightrope of sin. If I love her, then I won't put her in a situation where she may become defiled. I won't also sit there and lust over her in my mind.
My will, as a believer, should be to do His will.
If I love my girlfriend, then I should love her the way God loves her.
If I have a "christian" girlfriend and by being with her, my eyes are becoming less focused on eternal issues, and becoming more focused on spending money on dance lessons, etc so we'll look "good" together when we're out in public and receive the praise of man, and people will flatter us by saying how good we look together, then I have a problem with self and sin.
If I'm spending God's money on things that'll build up my flesh, instead of spending it on what matters to Him, then that says something too.
If I have a girlfriend, and say I'm a "christian", and "love the Lord with all my mind, soul, heart, and strength, and love my neigghbor as myself", then I won't want to marry her if being with her does not engage me to think higher thoughts of God, and being with her doesn't "move me" to love my neighbors, my enemies, give to the poor, not criticize others, and basically make me die to sin and live unto God... Because being single and having the choice as to who I can marry, if that's the Lord's will, that kind of woman will be the only woman that I will want to marry. And if she's a "christian" then I would hope that would be the man she wants to marry - a man that is faithful to Christ, and brings out the best in her spiritually, and will be faithful to her.
I hope this helps friend. Life is too short. When 2 become 1, the candle should burn brighter for the glory of God.

Richie,

Your testimony is heartwarming and encouraging to this grandmother! Really! It seems like so many times that we seniors are talking to a brick wall, that we are alone in our convictions, the young are to stubborn to do anything but their own thing. It is wonderful to hear the testimony of a young man whose heart is to live for the LORD; to read of one whose heart beats to serve Him!

I am sure you should not have a problem to find a young female saint who would be delighted to partner with you for life! :-)

God bless...you made my day!

ginnyrose

I thank you all,

for the kindness shown me here.

God Bless,

Elizabeth

I know what you're sayin Approved... And I don't think what I said contradicted any thing the Lord said, nor the apostles.
Marriage, being blessed by God, CAN be as beautiful and holy as God can make it. Paul said, "we have the minds of Christ", and Christ said, "if you love wives, husbands, etc, more than I you cannot be my disciples."
Paul, if I'm correct, was only married to Christ, for he didn't have an earthly wife. Perhaps, if he would've gotten married he would've been constricted by that marriage and wouldn't have fulfilled God's plan and purpose for His church.
God bestowed in us the faculty of imagination, and we can use our imaginations as well for the glory of God... If, with God's will, I get into a relationship and marry, I think, 'how beautiful for the glory of God, can God make a marriage?' "For all things are possible with God to them that believe.". I mean really, how much fruit, how much glory, can God get out of something He has blessed? "His ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts."
But, this I know through my experience -many rush into marriage with preconceived notions that aren't holy unto God, nor righteous. They think "things will change" once they're married. They put burdensome attitudes upon their spouse. They live in the future, and not in the present, and are deceived abd deceive others.
You know, maybe like Paul, God won't grant a marriage partner because God wants them wholly for themselves, praise God. But maybe, there is one out there for one that has dedicated themselves to the Lord to be a candlestick showing forth the glory of Christ.
The foundation must be built upon the Rock, for any home to withstand the storms of life.
Many have already "left their first Love", seeking after a partner, and expecting God to bless them - I've seen this too. Then, they get married, and bitterness and resentment set in their minds, and they blame each other for things that are their own fault. God is patient with them, but they aren't patient with God, and rush into marriage and bring into their lives a snare that will be with them for all their days.
Anyway, marriage is, to an extent what you make it, and one will "make their marriage" according to how they perceive a marriage should be. But, that marriage, should be perceived how God says it can be. God is Love, in Him is no darkness.
Three strands of cord make a rope that is strong, and two intertwinded and glued together by the Love of Christ, engrafted and abiding in the Tree of Life should be a magnificant sight to see. The bigger the branch, the more fruit it can yield, if it is healthy.
Too many people hide things because they don't want to be exposed. That's why too, I believe it is important not to jump into marriage too soon, and many do, and it all goes to pieces in a short time.
If a "christian" doesn't leave His first love, and God wills it that he or she be married, and they are first and foremost married to Christ, then I think and believe that "the sky is limit" in regards to a great adventure with God and what 2 can do that are led by the Spirit for the kingdom's sake, and the glory of God.
We read and see all these stories of adventure and romance, etc when it comes to unbelievers, and many gasp and get teary-eyed, and think, "oh, how beautiful is this"; but a couple that God lives through should be 100, yea 1,000,000 times more adventurous, romantic, moving, and penetrating in our world today. God is Life, and how greater the river of Life should flow from a fountain that consists of 2 becoming 1 for the glory of God?

If ….. my eyes are becoming less focused on eternal issues, and becoming more focused on spending money on dance lessons, etc so we'll look "good" together when we're out in public and receive the praise of man, and people will flatter us

Yeshuaboy, I'm sure you know that this can also be a motive behind NOT going to dances or anything considered worldly. And it can also be a motive for going to church or bible studies. Our bent to stray knows no boundaries. How can we judge that one's decision is an indication of straying from God - whether to go to a dance or to a church?

Diane

Ah, yes, most definitely rosdsign. Servants of God, and one another don't care about these things, meaning they have put self on the cross, and are only looking God-ward. They take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

And I do apologize for I don't think I fully answered your question. Now, God knows the heart, but I can perceive what's in a heart by what comes out of the mouth.
What I stated earlier in this thread is a personal testimony of my own - my own thoughts, what I see in this present age, and what I've experienced.
The member that started this thread, knows already, fully or partially, why he feels inclined to take dance lessons, etc. That's between him and the Lord.
This is what I do - I workout in a gym. Now, I don't wear muscle shirts, or tight shorts when I'm in the gym, because its a personal conviction that I have. I workout because the stronger and healthier I am, the better able I am to do my job. The weaker I am physically, the less able I am to do my job, and it takes more time, and costs my contractor more money, because time equals money in my trade, meaning the longer it takes me to do my job, the more my contractor pays me since I get paid by the hour. But, yes, I workout at a gym. I go when I know it'll be dead there - either no one else using the facility when I arrive, or hardly anybody there. And when I'm there, I compete against myself, in the log that I have transcribed my workouts. Anyway, for me, it's why I do what I do, not what I do; although, what I do will manifest itself as to why I do it.
Know, hopefully this lad that started the thread, wants to do these things for the glory of God. If so, great. If not, then hopefully, he'll do something else where his works won't be burned up at the last day.
If I love this member, then I won't want him to waste his time, his talent. I have given him testimony from experience that's all. If my testimony and words condemn him, then may he examine himself to see whether he be in the faith, and may he be established and set firmly in Christ the Redeemer.
I spoke the truth in love, although at times it is hard to discern where people are coming from in their posts.
I then put down a description of what marriage and relationship with the opposite sex can be, and that is my firm conviction. That is the relationship, if God wills, I hope to have for myself one day, and I don't anything less than that. And I hope that those who love God, and others for themselves will not waste their time on what can be God's best for their life, for the glory of God and the benefit of His church.
Now, I have given an example of something that I do, which to some can be also considered "worldly", but how it can be used to benefit others like my employer, and at the same time keep me healthy physically.
A place where I find to be lots of vanity is in the gym - the lust of the flesh, the eyes, and the pride of life. And trust me, when I do say that while I'm there, I have to keep constant guard over my thoughts. I'm aware how easy it is to deceive myself too. While I workout though, I'm constantly looking down, and keep focused. I don't do it for the praise of man. And if I do get a flattering comment from someone, I shun it, because I hate flattery directed towards me, instead of Christ through me.
I don't come on SI so people can tell me I'm right. I love it when someone rebukes me if I am wrong. I am the chief of sinners here, and I know that. But if through my experience, I can help another not waste their time with frivolous pursuits, and help them focus on loving God and their neighbor, then I think that's a good thing... But, I do realize that every good thing comes down from the Father of Light, and I am just an empty vessel that he can use for His glory if He wishes.
May each here judge themselves in the Light of all Scripture.
My apologies roadsign if I came across as judgmental. I am what I am by the grace of God alone.

I used to go to beaches where people run around sparsely clothed. Then I felt it was wrong. Once I went swimming in the evening hoping that only few would be around and I kept my head down. Still regardless of how I tried to justify it, I did not have peace.

If you have a conviction about these things, you will pay a price of being awkward to a majority. I told my mom that I will no longer join beach holidays.

You may have heard Paul Washer mention a tract he was once sent by Leonard Ravenhill. Well, you can read it below:

OTHERS MAY, YOU CANNOT by G. D. Watson.

If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 16:24-25)

If God has called you to be truly like Jesus in all your spirit, He will draw you into a life of crucifixion and humility. He will put on you such demands of obedience that you will not be allowed to follow other Christians. In many ways, He seems to let other good people do things which He will not let you do.

Others who seem to be very religious and useful may push themselves, pull wires, and scheme to carry out their plans, but you cannot. If you attempt it, you will meet with such failure and rebuke from the Lord as to make you sorely penitent.

Others can brag about themselves, their work, their successes, their writings, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to do any such thing. If you begin to do so, He will lead you into some deep mortification that will make you despise yourself and all your good works.

Others will be allowed to succeed in making great sums of money, or having a legacy left to them, or in having luxuries, but God may supply you only on a day-to-day basis, because He wants you to have something far better than gold, a helpless dependence on Him and His unseen treasury.

The Lord may let others be honored and put forward while keeping you hidden in obscurity because He wants to produce some choice, fragrant fruit for His coming glory, which can only be produced in the shade.

God may let others be great, but keep you small. He will let others do a work for Him and get the credit, but He will make you work and toil without knowing how much you are doing. Then, to make your work still more precious, He will let others get the credit for the work which you have done; this to teach you the message of the Cross, humility, and something of the value of being cloaked with His nature.

The Holy Spirit will put a strict watch on you, and with a jealous love rebuke you for careless words and feelings, or for wasting your time, which other Christians never seem distressed over.

So make up your mind that God is an infinite Sovereign and has a right to do as He pleases with His own, and that He may not explain to you a thousand things which may puzzle your reason in His dealings with you.

God will take you at your word. If you absolutely sell yourself to be His slave, He will wrap you up in a jealous love and let other people say and do many things that you cannot. Settle it forever; you are to deal directly with the Holy Spirit, He is to have the privilege of tying your tongue or chaining your hand or closing your eyes in ways which others are not dealt with. However, know this great secret of the Kingdom: When you are so completely possessed with the Living God that you are, in your secret heart, pleased and delighted over this peculiar, personal, private, jealous guardianship and management of the Holy Spirit over your life, you will have found the vestibule of heaven, the high calling of God.

By G.D. Watson

Mike I'm sure you must be overwhelmed by now! You sure opened a hot topic! I noticed that you began by referring to the holiness teachings. I wouldn't mind getting back to that.

One prominent proponent of the holiness movement was Harry Ironside - at least at first. He is a key player in this discussion here. I include my own blurb about him, as well as a website page of his own writing on the topic.

Blurb:
Harry Ironside (1876-1951), an itinerant preacher and author, wrote a biography in which he shares his experience in the Holiness Movement. Early in his ministry, he was zealous to promote the holiness teachings. He was eager to achieve this high level of perfection for himself.

However, he soon came to see that the teachings had seriously harmful effects. He wrote: "It left a tremendous train of spiritual derelicts" Pg 89. Ironside saw disillusioned failures, emotional wrecks, and people who abandoned the faith entirely because they felt that they could never measure up. He also saw many who were "living in cunningly concealed hypocrisy", trying to hide the fact that they were falling short.

In his own attempts to attain this sanctified state, Ironside was constantly nagged by his own imperfections. Eventually, in total frustration, he left the ministry, believing that he was a bad example. Prior to this he had been preaching four hundred sermons a year. He even considered giving up and following the way of the world.

Then the Holy Spirit revealed to him that he had been focusing on himself all along, and not trusting in the Good News. Ironside came to the realization that the grace of Christ was sufficient. As a result, he became an outstanding preacher of the gospel.

Here's a webpage - with his own account: http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/ironsideholiness.html

Mike, I think it would be a valuable investment of your time to explore this further, and see how it relates to your question about ball room dancing.

May God bless your journey to truth in this matter,

Diane

Wow,

Thanks for all the responses guys. It's great to see that there are some people here who do take holiness seriously here but that we also take seriously the call of the gospel to live in freedom.

Myself and my girlfriend have just been through a rather stressful wee weekend with me spending 12 hours with students over the weekend where I was training them in various aspects of evangelism. During that weekend my girlfriends dad passed away from leukemia on the other side of the world (he's germany, we're in NZ). And one of the things that really helps my girl is being able to have fun and relax.

Before we parted ways last night we danced a fast waltz and a bit of salsa, which we both really enjoyed and I think she really appreciated it. I also led here in worship and heard her off in another room singing joyfully after which was fantastic. God is good, and the joy and comfort he wants us to live in is good. Let's live it!

I particularly like the last reply as I have been aware of some of these concerns too.

Thanks y'all. I'll get through all of these responses some time soon. I'm just over half way!

Mike

Mike,
Please ,do not be deceaved,
God is calling us to holinness.
`Without holinness, we will ( or cannot see God.)
God is the Spirit-WORD.

He wants us to see Him through Spiritual eyes .Discern what He is saying ,through the eyes of the Spirit.

Jesus said, `The WORD'S that I speak unto you ,They are Spirit and they are LIFE.'

It is He that.. you ..me...everyone,need to ask our `if'y...don't know questions to.
Because it is He we will all stand before...be accountable to, one day.
And the time is short.

And , How can I say something that is so very important ?
Maybe I should ask a question:
When we talk about `freedom ', Is it freedom from, or freedom to?

We were once bound up like Lazarus...dead in sin..we were not free.
So now that we have been set free, can we still do the the same things as we did when we were bound?Can we still.. be ..live like the world?...and yet be free? And please, This is NOT about dancing.
But it is about everything in our lives.

If we are `no longer our own,' then.. we not have to ask the ONE to whom we belong?

And we know the Bible say's` The Gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom'
And were there is a kingdom ,there is a King .
And when we belong to Jesus, ..we answer to our King,..and ask ,as Paul`What would Thou have for me to do Lord.' (Lord:is Lord over us ...Rules)

In all honesty,
..And kindness,

Elizabeth

Ah yes dearest Ginnyrose, always a blessing to read your posts.
I recall Solomon at this time, how in all his sayings in Ecclesiastes how he went after everything under the sun, and in the end he found it all vanity... Later, as you know, we read, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." - Ecc 12:13-14
I just don't believe how a man can have a proper perspective on how to love a woman, if that man doesn't love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. And if the Lord wills, to put His Holy Spirit in an empty vessel, and the love of God is shed abroad in his heart, then I think his partner is in pretty good hands, but not until then.
Mike, I must say, one of the words you use, kinda freaked me out - when you wrote, "my girl"... Friend, I don't know if you really mean that, but if you do, I ask you to consider - It afrights me when I hear young men talk like that. And when you say, "I ministered to her", I think Christ should minister to her through you, if that is His will.
Dear Mike, you are most sure to be a better man than I, but I ask you to watch yourself, and beware of yourself, your flesh.
A godly man should be teaching that his girlfriend love Christ as supreme, even if it costs you that relationship, or any other. We are called to suffer for His Name sake. We are strangers here and pilgrims, if we belong to the Lord. But be careful of thinking that your girlfriend is yours - this omes across as haughty to me. Her soul belongs to either God or the devil. If it belongs to God, then nuture that soul as God would have you to do, and God will bless that in the way He so chooses to do.
An unworthy member, Richie

Scripture informs us in 1Peter 1:15,16: "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

Whenever the LORD gives us a command he also provides us the means to fulfill that. He does not leave us dangling. If we do, it is our own fault. Becoming holy is a growing process. We are sanctified - set apart to holiness without the which no man will see the LORD. As we walk we will become more like He wants us to, but it requires a daily commitment of surrendering our hearts, will and mind to such. It also means we need to crucify our flesh. If we ask the LORD to teach us and be teachable, He will be ever so delighted to do so, but he can't if we resist.

Am I there yet? No, because it is a lifelong process. When I look at my own performance I consider myself dismal at best. But when I look to Jesus I experience joy...

BTW, there is a long thread led by Paul West that deals with Mortification...I highly recommend it to one and all. There is enough meat there to last you a long time. Take its message to heart and I would guess one will eventually learn something about the process of becoming holy.

God bless...

when the olympics start up again i do not want any of you to be watching the wicked ice dancing... holiness is the prescence of God on the scene...Holy ground is holy only because God was there.you do not attain holiness by keeping rules but by having Christ. i do work at a CHRISTIAN dance studio where all the employees are born again and the only reason why i work there is because the owner wants to help me with my 800+ dollars a mo. income and that i used to be a famous dancer in the area. i have been helped and visited in sickness by customers. we have two retired lifelong missionaries as members and less gossip than any church i have been to. i have seen people get saved here and am appalled by the religeous posts that come straight from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and not from the tree of life. you are not rewarded if you do good and damned if you do badly. you are rewarded for being in saving relationship with Jesus our redeemer and the commandments are to love the world(people) and love God. these things are greatly demonstrated where i work.we have pastors and church leaders as members as well as the local rabbi.i have seen a teacher come through here with dancing that i would term as vulgar and he was fired quickly. the head of the kinesiology dept. at lsu told me that she thought ballroom dancing was the very best exercise people can do for you can start as a young person and still be dancing in your 80s and you dont need a pool.jimp watching the older people dance is sooo wonderful and surely not sensual.

I can feel that man's frustration in those that have tried to live in holiness and seemed to always fall short of the glory of God.

Herein lies an insidious temptation for those who are zealous to be a holy Christian, and wish to see it in others. I see myself in this category. Romans 2 is a caution for us kind of folk.

Diane

by jimp:
when the olympics start up again i do not want any of you to be watching the wicked ice dancing...

by jimp:
i ... am appalled by the religious posts that come straight from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not from the tree of life.

by roadsign:
You can see why Jesus’ strongest rebukes were aimed towards those who were meticulous about the need for purity. Their prohibitions were intended to preserve purity. But it made people more impure by putting heavy loads on the conscience.

God bless you both!!
Lisa