Law Tithing VS. Spirit led giving?

thingsabove: I don't think I would be looking for popular teachers who advocate either position. Not that you might not get some good teaching on the topic. I think I would go back to the Word on the matter. There are a few places in the New Testament that deal with giving and/or tithing and whole books that deal with the law and the new covenant. There are some basics of the New Testament that I use to determine how I should give.

The born again believer has been freed from the law. We are no longer under law but under grace. Since tithing was a commandment of the law I must assume I am free from that commandment as well.

2 Corinthians 9:27 tells us the motive that should accompany giving. We should give as we determine in our heart, not due to emotional appeal (sadness or in the KJV begrudgingly), nor out of contraint (or because we must). To me this eliminates the law as it constrained us to give which would be consistent with Paul's teachings in the rest of the NT.

Hebrews 7 is the only place in the NT where we find tithing associated with any type of teaching. (The only other reference is in Matthew and is the boasting of a Pharisee.) In Heb. 7 the point is NOT a teaching on tithing but rather a teaching on the coming of a new priesthood, the Levitical priesthood being abolished and replaced with the coming of a new and better covenant. Tithing, interestingly enough, is used here as the example to clearly demonstrate the coming of the new priesthood. The point is NOT to demonstrate any kind of a NT tithing commandment but rather to demonstrate that there was another priesthood to whom Levi paid tithes and who blessed Levi. This shows that the Melchisedec priesthood superseded the Levitical priesthood and that Jesus is after the order of Melchisedec, His priesthood superseding that of Levi and thus being superior. The tithes that Abraham gave had nothing to do with law as the law was not yet. It had everything to do with Abraham purposing in his heart to give to God a tenth of the spoils of victory. I find it a bit amusing that the very scriptures that show the law and its ordinances being superseded by the covenant of grace is sometimes used to support the continuance of the tithing aspect of the law. ????

Something the Lord spoke to me awhile back, when I was occupying myself with this same question was, "If you read the New Testament for the first time in your life, without any prior knowledge of the Old Testament, would you come away from the book with an inclination to give 10% of your money to me as a requirement, or observe the Sabbath as a requirement, or keep a certain feast or circumsize your children as requirements?"

I've never forgot it. I suddenly imagined myself a savage African tribesman in the early 19th century and some missionary handed me a New Testament in my own native tongue: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Would I be inclined to systematically tithe after reading it? The answer is simple. God has made everything so simple in Christ Jesus; man mixes and obfuscates and unneccesarily complicates.

Quote:

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:

Krispy is so right to disagree. A thorough understanding of the OT is so vitally important. We do not live under the old covenant, but that does not mean that we abandon the old testament for the new. We simply do not live according to the law any more.

"""Quote:

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:"""

The Old Testament does not fulfill the Word of God. Only Christ in Paul with His message, "MY GOSPEL" revealed to Paul who was chosen from his mothers womb, Quote:
Col: 1: 25-29. The mystery even in the old testament unto Paul. The mystery hidden from all, until revealed to Paul, Col 1:26. The MYSTERY, Christ in man, born again in the believer by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory" Col 1: 27.

There is no life in the old testament, the Life in Christ can only come after the Cross, In Him, and In the plan of God for His own birthed children, not revealed until Paul, even Chosen before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

The old sinful lawbreaker was killed with Christ, yet here I am, yet not I but Christ who lives in me, which life I now live by His Faith and Life in me. Gal 2: 16-20.

In Christ, new life in me: Phillip

"Behold all things have become new"

""Quote:

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:""

True the whole Word of God is the Old and the New Testament. Is their life in Christ in the Old? If we had nothing but the Word of God given by Paul, would we have a life giving Gospel?

The old shows me no matter what I do, I cannot please God. That is why God chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. I cannot acquire salvation by what I do. The old is God breathed, and the new is life and peace in Christ Jesus in giving me life in the life that is birthed in me.

Sorry Krispy you get frurstrated, that is not my intent, but life and peace in Christ Jesus who is my life. Yes Christ is in the old, if not there is no understanding and the Jews still don't get it, they knowing the old better than anyone, but what and how we are to live in Christ is in the new, come by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and baptized into One Spirit taught by the Holy indwelling Spirit of promise given to Paul to fulfill the Word of God.

In Christ: Phillip

This topic always makes me smile. That is because the implication ~ at least to me ~ seems we are willing to "present our bodies a living sacrifice" (Rom 12:1) to Him but we sure don't want Him near our money. ;)

One of my grandsons used to call me and say, "Grammy, do you have time to look up some lyrics. They're suppose to be a Christian band ....." Bottom line, satan was whispering "Did God really say ..." and Devin wondered how close he could get his big hairy toe to the line without crossing it. (He has since had a strong Christian man come along side to mentor him through the Word and using Paul Washer sermons and Henry Blackaby writings etc. and he is making wiser choices on his own.)

Hm-m-m ... what does God desire now??

Zac Poonen has a good message that covered this. I am sorry I do not remember the name of it but it was about the difference between the old and new covenants.

He speaks of what the Lord required in the old and what is different in the new. I will try to give the related gist of that message but if you or someone else can find it it would be clearer.

He reminds us we are to be "bond-slaves" of Jesus Christ. As a bond slave our life is not our own. Nothing we have is ours. Even our money is not ours. In the OC one day ~ the sabbath ~ was required. NC all of our time is His to direct. How much do I really need for me? Am I redeeming the time? OC was a tithe about 10% ~ however when the various required offerings were added it was closer to 25% I think. NC it is all His so how much do I really need for me and how much is for His work? Jesus said He was about the Father's work and so are we to be both with body and resources.

The Pharisee's tithed even their kitchen herbs. The widow gave all. Which one am I closer to being like???

Re: OT/NT You cannot really understand the new without the old. The old tells of God and who He is and how strongly He feels about sin and about His name. It is the beginning of the story of Jesus... The first church only had the OT to work with until the other letters and gospels were written and distributed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Be blessed!

REJOICE! =)

Mary

There is no denying, there is nothing in the whole Word of God that is not profitable. But when I get to London, why would I want to go back to towns, villiages and hamlets.

Hebrews 6:1 says it plainly; "Let us go on into perfection"

Now that I am in London, lets learn how we now live.

I live in Christ now and He is the only city on the hill I want to know about.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi,I think your point on "bond servant" is very good.
This scripture came to mind on the subject.
Christians who tithe often say that the consequences of not tithing is not being blessed financially,however the scripture below says that its "faith" and "seeking gods kingdom and his righteousness" and all things will be added.Could anyone comment on this thanks staff

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is , and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought , saying , What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek :) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

thingsabove wrote:
So any thoughts. Also does anyone know of any popular teachers/pastors who would advocate freedom from old testamnt tithe law??

These churches experiment in ways to get more money, at least the one I went to did because a few years back I was in on the ‘worship planning’ committee and at the time this church had big boxes in the back of the church for offerings and they started experimenting in different ways to see which brought in more money and talking about it at the meetings....like standing up for offering, sitting down for offering, or the box in the back. They eventually got rid of the boxes in the back.

They started out trusting in the Lord with the boxes in the back but it came down to trying to get more money out of people. They found they got more money by passing around the plate but even MORE money if they could get the men to stand up, that gave the men better access to their wallets ($2000 a week MORE) and that they needed to preach on tithing at least two times a year but hopefully four times and at these times they really looked for people to give a testimony about how paying tithes has blessed them.

If I ever go back to church, I’m not getting involved in leadership planning meetings, it’s very discouraging to listen to them.

God bless,
Lisa

The reality is that we live in a world where money is the medium of exchange and to effectively do the work of the ministry we are going to have to use money. However when we begin to see people as our source of supply we get ourselves into trouble. God is our source. He will use obedient people as the means of channeling the supply to us, but He alone remains the source. When we see people as the source we are often tempted toward manipulation of people. When we see God as the source we are forced onto our face before Him to seek Him for His will. Remember how God had a place called "there" for Elijah. He said, "Go to the brook Cherith for there is where I have provided for you." If we are in the center of God's will He will supply. The trick is to put ourselves in the center of His will in whatever ministry it is. If we are doing His thing He will supply.

I do recall hearing a minister say that if we all gave according to the New Testament model that we would see a lot of unfruitful ministries die and a lot of fruitful ones thrive. We would give where the Spirit of God directed us to and do it joyfully. If my heart is in tune with the Holy Spirit then I believe "where I purpose in my heart" will be where God also purposes that I give. I thought it a really good perspective.

The Trial of Pastor Jones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWpN45-oWyw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

_____________________________
Wise ones do not quarrel, so no one can quarrel with one.
I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question!
Remember why we share and discuss! All we have to lose are the errors we hold, and then we gain the truth! There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!

I do recall hearing a minister say that if we all gave according to the New Testament model that we would see a lot of unfruitful ministries die and a lot of fruitful ones thrive. We would give where the Spirit of God directed us to and do it joyfully. If my heart is in tune with the Holy Spirit then I believe "where I purpose in my heart" will be where God also purposes that I give. I thought it a really good perspective.
------------------------
Amen brother!! It's an excellent perspective, amen!

I'm feeling a bit responsible now for causing this NT versus OT confusion. I think I should explain a few things:

The Old Testament is just as much the Word of God as the New Testament, but it must be read in its proper context, as it has its own distinct purpose. The context is that of a schoolmaster pointing to a shadow that is ever directing us to Jesus Christ. We need to understand as well that there are several instances even in the New Testament where we are dealing with an Old Testament situation, i.e. Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees, Paul confronting the Jews of Asia Minor, etc. It is very important to recognize in scripture which covenant the Holy Spirit is speaking of at any given point. This is how we are protected from legalism, or, to put it another way, from mixing the shadow with the Substance.

That said, the shadow is important, because it pre-defines the Substance and gives a fuller understanding of it to us. It's like looking at a practice exam before taking the real test. If I am sitting in a room and suddenly see the shadow of my wife, I know that a good thing is coming and I can prepare myself to receive her. I am no longer occupied with her shadow; I turn away from it to find her substance. The shadows of the OT should cause us to seek the spiritual realities which are paralleled in the Substance of Christ Jesus.

Do not therefore cast away the book of shadows and examples. Learn how to use it, let the Lord give you wisdom in this area. How would we know about the extent of sabbath rest spiritualized in Christ if we didn't have the law's shadow as a study guide? How would we understand the "circumcision made without hands" reality if we weren't first acquainted with the shadow of the Patriarchs? How would we understand the blessedness of the "firstfruits of God" without a prior study of that feast? Without the OT shadows, we would only have a paltry understanding and a severely-handicapped appreciation for the awesome advantages that are manifest when we turn from them to bask in the Light of Christ's Reality.

QUOTE:
"The Old Testament is just as much the Word of God as the New Testament, but it must be read in its proper context, as it has its own distinct purpose. The context is that of a schoolmaster pointing to a shadow that is ever directing us to Jesus Christ. We need to understand as well that there are several instances even in the New Testament where we are dealing with an Old Testament situation, i.e. Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees, Paul confronting the Jews of Asia Minor, etc. It is very important to recognize in scripture which covenant the Holy Spirit is speaking of at any given point. This is how we are protected from legalism, or, to put it another way, from mixing the shadow with the Substance.

That said, the shadow is important, because it pre-defines the Substance and gives a fuller understanding of it to us. It's like looking at a practice exam before taking the real test. If I am sitting in a room and suddenly see the shadow of my wife, I know that a good thing is coming and I can prepare myself to receive her. I am no longer occupied with her shadow; I turn away from it to find her substance. The shadows of the OT should cause us to seek the spiritual realities which are paralleled in the Substance of Christ Jesus.

Do not therefore cast away the book of shadows and examples. Learn how to use it, let the Lord give you wisdom in this area. How would we know about the extent of sabbath rest spiritualized in Christ if we didn't have the law's shadow as a study guide? How would we understand the "circumcision made without hands" reality if we weren't first acquainted with the shadow of the Patriarchs? How would we understand the blessedness of the "firstfruits of God" without a prior study of that feast? Without the OT shadows, we would only have a paltry understanding and appreciation for the awesome advantages that are manifest when we turn from them to bask in the Light of Christ's Reality."

AMEN!

I can add little to it...but would like to share a testimony of how wonderful the OT law is/was.

The OT teaches one a lot about the holiness of God. He is very exacting. All of creation demonstrates this as well. Everything God touches is exacting, perfect. He does not do anything half-way. I came to this conclusion after the Holy Spirit lead me to study Numbers, of all books! Found out later I am not the only person to have experienced this.

The NT writer use a lot of OT imagery to demonstrate some eternal truth. Unless you understand these images its meaning is lost to the reader. Years ago when I was reading Paul's writings I got bored and wondered why he is so redundant in talking about Jesus being the sacrifice, etc...just on and on. I knew that! What's the big deal, anyway? Then the Holy Spirit lead me to study the OT law, beginning in Leviticus. I did and Oh! suddenly I understood! It was as though a huge spotlight was turned on and now I see! I understood! AMAZING!

In the OT law there are rules for life, dealing with washings, sanitation, among other things. Is it not odd that it was not until recent times that people were beginning to understand these principles and apply them in matters of sanitation to prevent disease and its spread? Hey! The OT law spoke of this long before modern medical science discovered it. The OT law gave no reason other then that God said it and they did it and it worked.

So much wisdom there...the difference for us today is that we cannot gain holiness by observing these things - it just may make life a bit easier. God bless.

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

Check out this website. Download the pdf. It will bless you.

Hi all Just hoping that anyone could tackle my statement below????

Christians who tithe often say that the consequences of not tithing is not being blessed financially,however the scripture below says that its "faith" and "seeking gods kingdom and his righteousness" and all things will be added.Could anyone comment on this thanks staff

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is , and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought , saying , What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek :) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

No problem.

I read the Penatuch(while reading through the Bible) in May/July of this year and the Tithe Scriptures really stuck out to me.

The church I was going to teaches the Tithe amongst other teachings on giving, and I was troubled about what was being taught after reading The Word. So I started searching and found that site. It really blessed me.

When people understand the the Mosaic Tithe was God's system of welfare for the Nation of Isreal, it really gives it some context. How GREAT IS OUR GOD!

The following list includes every Bible tithe text.
Genesis 14:17-20 Amos 4:2-6
Genesis 28:20-22 2 Chronicles 31:1-12
Leviticus 27:30-34 Nehemiah 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5, 12
Numbers 18:19-28 Malachi 3:7-10
Deuteronomy 12:1-19 Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 Luke 18:9-14
Deuteronomy 26:12-13 Hebrews 7:1-19
1 Samuel 8:14-17

Tithes are always only food
Lev. 27:30, 32; Numb. 18:27, 28; Deut. 12:17; 14:22, 23; 26:12; 2 Chron. 31:5,
6; Neh. 10:37; 13:5; Mal. 3:10; Matt. 23:23; Luke 11: 42

There's a lot of richness that can be dug out of the old books. There's so many OT references in the NT that you just don't get the full picture. Be careful not to confuse the "Old Testament" with the "Old Covenant(Moses' LAW)".

I am just as sickened by people trying to tell people to tithe and take Sabbath as the next guy... but that does not mean throw out the baby with the defiled bathwater.

What's really awesome.... is that EVERYTHING tithed came forth from SEED ! Who IS the seed ? Jesus!
It is as all scripture in the Old Covenant a picture of a reality that came in Jesus! As HE said it all speaks OF Him.
gamma-light