Where are the unschooled ordinary men?

I have found that Calvary Chapel is blessed with many, many unschooled ordained pastors.

hi Martyr,
In what way do you think the unschooled are not considered the same as in Acts?

hi Rookie,
Is that not a contradiction "ordained" and "unschooled" or not?What schooling do you have attain before you can be ordained?
Yours Staff

I think it was Richard Baxter who said something like, "although you need the knowledge of Christ to be saved, you don't need the knowledge of a theologian."
Christ comes by way of revelation to the soul.
The law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and Christ puts that law in our hearts.
The heart must be plowed, weeded, and gardened properly that the good seed spring forth to everlasting life, and bear much fruit for the glory of God. Watch over your heart with all diligence.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God... (James 1:5).
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." - 1 Cor 13:2
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tonggues, they shall cease; whether there bbe knowledge, it shall vanish away." - 1Cor 13:8
If you seek Christ and find Him, then you really do have all things, regardless of what the world says, the flesh, or the devil.

I completely agree with this point. Jesus did not go to any Bible School nor did Peter. It is not Bible Scholars that are to be given the elder-ship in Church, but the one whose is able to live like Christ should be given.
Even Paul himself though he is a trained teacher of Law, he considers it worthless compared to the knowledge of Christ.

Jesus spoke to the "educated" men of His day and spoke of their zeal for missionary service. They would "travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte and turn him into twice the son of Hell" that they were. Matthew 23 is a scathing critique of educated men, men without fruit.

When I meet Christians, I care much less about what they know, much more whether there is tender love for Jesus present. The sweet aroma of that fellowship- oooh, it smells good in some people despite their education.

It has taken me way too many years to realize that no one has their doctrine perfected like mine... I jest of course.

Something happened to me that was surprising. Years ago I was on a short term mission trip to Guatemala. The reception and love we got from the Roman Catholics there was phenomenal, the protestants (like most of us were) were cool and some actually unfriendly. And hearing Mother Theresa describe her love for Jesus I got goosebumps! Yet the doctrines of the Roman church which seem crazy to me were not the currency of her witness.

I guess I still have a lot to learn..?

And by the way- I have very little formal Theological education!

This is a topic which has been causing much grief to my husband and myself in recent years. For several good reasons we believe the Lord wants us to serve Him with our lives and we were excited to leave much of our old lives behind and say, "Here I am. Send me wherever you want me to go. You may do with me as you please". It was then we found out that Christian organisations will not partner with us because we're not ordained. We can not serve in prison chaplancy, as house parents to troubled teens or work for a Christian relief agency because we have no BA of sorts. Never mind twenty years of active church work, Bible study leading, preaching and teaching. No one has bothered to contact the references and ask, "Is this brother a godly man? Is he led by the Spirit? Is his doctrine sound? Does he submit to authority?"

So it is either work on the secular job and serve a little on the side or go to Bible school for four years. If you're fifty years old, that is not an easy decision. Now is this right? People are hired for such positions when they have the right papers even tough they may not even truly know the Lord. I believe that is how much heresy has entred the church. We give more credentials to men made qualifications than to the testimony of the Holy Spirit. A man ought to be called into a Christian ministry position after fasting and prayer by those in charge, not after having looked over his resumee and decided he had the most points.

I would like to point out that "unlearned" or "uneducated" from the time of Christ was very different than the concepts today.

"Education" as it exists today in a metered form -- even theological -- was not truly available at that time. Most vocational trades were learned through apprenticeships (and often from family members). This is a "form" of education; but, students learned from their master (Luke 6:40).

There were no "schools" that taught fishing, carpentry, weaving, or even math (for collecting taxes). In fact, there weren't any "degrees" either. Children were taught how to read and write by parents and, whenever possible, synagogues (taught by rabbis). Most rabbis taught directly from the Scriptures, along with reading, writing, history, ethics and law, for the purpose of a moral education. However, such things were not mandatory or even common among all believers.

However, theology was a different thing altogether. People didn't typically "choose" to become educated in theology. Those who were "learned" as "Pharisees" were typically chosen (or inducted) from prominent families (or bright pupils from the synagogues) and were presented with what was understood to be a lifelong commitment.

Most children who attended synagogues throughout their childhood ended their education by the time they were involved in a trade or apprenticeship. This age varied according to the economic needs of the child or his family. A few...and very few...were able to continue their education into adulthood and were chosen to join sects.

There were different sects at the time with varying levels of learning commitment. Some sects, like the Essenes, literally separated their followers into a monastery-like priesthood environment. Scribes were also selected to lifelong commitments that resembled vocations in Law or script.

In the passage from Acts (Acts 4:13) mentioned in the first post, I take it to mean that the men who were confronting Peter and John were astonished because they weren't "educated" in the sense as they were (via committed sectarian education) -- yet they were very astute when it came to knowing the Scriptures well enough to "preach it" (Acts 4:8-12). This was, of course, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:8).

However, the apostles were obviously "educated" in the sense that they were able to read and write. Most of them held to particular trade vocations (fishing, carpentry, tax collectors, etc...).

I would like to inject that there was no Scriptural prohibition against education. The problem is when people become clones or slaves of a theology or ideology. In fact, you could argue that many churches (including their Sunday Schools) have become nothing more than indoctrination centers that present interpretations of doctrine rather than pure Scripture. Instead of focusing on the Word of God as a whole (like the early synagogues), they have focused on the list of "essential truths" as agreed upon and presented by the denomination or local group of pastors and board members.

I would also like to say that one of the most important things that you are taught by good professors at the modern university level is NOT to believe everything that you read or are told. Rather, you are pushed to make an effort to discover truth for yourself. Education is not about sitting in a classroom and regurgitating information that you are presented. It is about looking at what you are taught and then digging deeper to see if it is truth. While there is some recitation that you are tested over, much of a formal education lay in the realm of discovery.

This "search" for knowledge is reflected in the mottos of some of the oldest educational institutions in the United States. Harvard's motto is "Veritas" ("Truth") -- which happens to be the most common element in university mottos. Yale's motto is "Lux et veritas" ("Light and Truth"). Princeton's motto is "Dei sub numine viget" ("Under God's Power she Flourishes"). Dartmouth's motto is "Vox clamantis in deserto" ("A Voice of one crying out in the Wilderness"). Columbia University's motto is "In lumine Tuo videbimus lumen" ("In Thy Light shall we see the light"). Brown University's motto is "In Deo Speramus" ("In God We Hope"). Penn's motto is "Leges sine moribus vanae" ("Laws without morality are useless").

Sadly, most of these universities have rejected both their religious heritage and their encouragement to seek "truth." However, the best students are those who are willing to question what they are taught and diligently search for the truth of a matter. This is reflected in the Bereans' attitude when it came to the Apostle Paul (Acts 17:11).

Anyway, I hope that I didn't distract too much from the central theme of this discussion. I do agree that God doesn't need "theologians" who simply go to school, recite information that they are taught and then suppose that they "know God." As we all know, the essence of this life is to know Jesus Christ.

It doesn't take a degree in theology or a semester in a seminary to know God and introduce Him to others. It simply takes a person spending intimate and honest time with Him and His Word each and every day. It takes decreasing to the point that Christ -- in the truth and simplicity that even a child would long for -- is what people get from us when we share the Gospel.

SolaV, you might like a book by Fern Willner who with husband Charles wanted to be missionaries to Africa. No mission board would "hire" them, and they finally got to their destination with $5.00. Fern had several children over there, Charles literally beat the bushes leading whomever he could find to Christ. It became their life, and though Fern has gone home Charles still serves.

It is a compelling story, two people with a God-given desire, sustained by miracle after miracle. The title is "When Faith is enough."

You are not the first to be "rejected" for mission service. For those who won't take no for an answer, this is how God gets to do it with you by His own power. Be careful to call on God for whatever is there to do, sometimes the ones He needs you to show His Son are in unlikely encounters!

I appreciate that your heart wants these things!

To pick up on the line Krispy has thrown out about balance....

It is true that most (not all) of the apostles were "uneducated" in the commentaries that had been written by the Pharisees as well as the higher level of education that the Pharisees and rabbis had attained to. It is also true that VERY FEW ever attained that level of head knowledge. They had memorized virtually the entirety of what we know as the "Old Testament" . All of the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of our Bible) were memorized as well as massive quantities of the Tanakh (largely the historical Old Testament books with the poetry and prophets writings). This means they had MEMORIZED the entirety of the Old Testament as well as massive amounts of "commentary" that were explanations of those scriptures. Jesus often spoke of those writings when He would say, "You have heard it said that.....but I say unto you..." He was referring to those commentary writings at that time.

Of course very few people had the mental horse power and personal discipline to cut the mustard to be a rabbi or Pharisee. Josephus tells us that there were only about 3000 total Pharisees at the Fall of Jerusalem some 37 years after Jesus was crucified. Just not many could fulfill the mental requirements to make it.

IT IS IN THAT CONTEXT THAT THE PHARISEES AND RELIGIOUS RULERS SAID OF THE APOSTLES "THEY ARE UNSCHOOLED AND ORDINARY MEN".

Compared to the religious leaders they were. HOWEVER-They were by no means "UNEDUCATED" as it is being implied in this thread. Of course Paul WAS a Pharisee. However, Peter, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, etc. although not Pharisees, were certainly not "uneducated" in the way that word is being used here.

THE APOSTLES THAT ARE CALLED "UNSCHOOLED AND ORDINARY MEN" HAD ALL MEMORIZED THE FIRST 5 BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!

To the Pharisees this level of knowledge was "uneducated and ignorant". However, that is a far cry from what is being implied in this thread at times.

How many of us have the first 5 books of the Bible memorized in their entirety? How many here have ANY memorized entirely? Our standard of "ignorance" is normally a far cry from what theirs was. Often the "they were unschooled" argument is used as an excuse for laziness. Pure and simple. It is easier to just throw out opinions and use a few proof texts -that may have nothing to actually do with the topic- and then say "I'm preaching Bible"... and perhaps be using His word to make points that He never intended... it happens every day.

The disciples were unschooled and ordinary men only in the sense that they that way when compared to the Pharisees. However, compared to most folks today in the church they were absolute scholars!

Paul addresses this also-
2 Tim 2:15 states- Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. ( Amplified)

Now... back to Krispy's point on balance. God does not HAVE to have those who study and dig into His word to work. However, it is apparent from a plethora of scripture that He wants us to study, dig, memorize, and put His word into us.

The other issue is this.... they were producing in your face miracles. Are those who seem to favor ignorance over learning also producing the same level of miracles to validate themselves as sent by God? Honestly?

I agree that there must be a balance...however, it seems that the "unschooled and ordinary" talk is often an excuse for laziness in study habits and an excuse to not bear down and put ones nose to the grindstone when digging into The Word of God. Perhaps not always..again balance....but often.

Just a post to give another angle of insight to those referenced scriptures.

Blessings

Caps were used for emphasis only. No yelling was intended.

So then those who have the critical commentaries, the Geek and Hebrew lexicons, the church history books, and prerhaps a seminary degree are God's choiccest servants?

Why the need for value judgments? Remember Paul’s analogy of the Body: Each part needs the others. Also: Those who have been given much, much will be expected.
The Puritans were given much and many of them used it very effectively. They placed a high value on learning, formal or informal. You see through their biographies and their writings - like Jonathan Edwards. These were the people who founded the universities - as a means to preserve society in godliness. We do well to remember what these people accomplished for society – in all fields of learning, really. And we still we are reaping the benefits. I cannot hold a candle to these Puritan Christians. Instead, I need a good deal of light shining on their books – so I can even absorb the content.

The man or woman who have only a New Testament and the Holy Spirit to lead and teach are not used by God?

Scripture cautions us against such value judgments - like in the warning:“Those who have been given much, much will be expected.”

Consider also Romans 12: 3 "Do not think of yourself more highly than you aught, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of FAITH God has given you. .... We have different gifts, ....

Diane

QUOTE:
____________________________________________________________

"Seriously? You're going to call the Creator of the world, the Almighty God, the omnipotent One... God Himself... uneducated?"
____________________________________________________________

I think if I would have been personally taught for three years by Jesus as the disciples, and later Paul, were I would be highly educated! The fact the Pharisees did not admit this - at the time - is a testimony to their arrogance. Look at Nicodemus' testimony: John 3:1,2:There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Now consider Acts 6:7: And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Jesus was the master teacher - no one could do it any better.

Chris said it well when he said:

"It doesn't take a degree in theology or a semester in a seminary to know God and introduce Him to others. It simply takes a person spending intimate and honest time with Him and His Word each and every day. It takes decreasing to the point that Christ -- in the truth and simplicity that even a child would long for -- is what people get from us when we share the Gospel."

Sometimes a lot of knowledge of the Word can be a bittersweet thing, especially here. I know just enough of the Word, that I am able to avoid most debates, and can relax and read and intake what I did not know. :)

Blaine, I returned to your original post, and will comment on your thoughts:

Yet I get the impression that there is a disdain for the average person who walks with Jesus. It is only the theological scholar that is respected. Even in this forum.

I sense that you are concerned about unjust biases towards certain select spokespersons of the faith, at the expense of the quieter “lesser” members. No doubt there is going to be some degree of bias, as there is in any number of areas. For example, certain people (ex females) may sense a male gender bias - and there may be some truth in that. Other (ex citizens from a “lesser” nation) may sense a national bias - and there may be truth in that too. ….. And on it goes.

Don’t you think that most difficult biases to detect and eradicate are our own? And yet those are the only ones God deals with in us. After all, valuing others impartiality is the epitome of love. It is what Jesus meant when he said, “Be Perfect.” See Matt. 5:43-48

It can be frustrating that we can't walk that journey of faith for any one else - just our own.

Diane

Staff asked:

Is that not a contradiction "ordained" and "unschooled" or not?What schooling do you have attain before you can be ordained?
Yours Staff

Sorry for missing this question, and this post is out of current line of discussion.

Many men who sense the calling of God to pioneer a church in the Calvary Chapel ministry are sent out to the town in which they sense their calling. The majority of these church plants begin with a bible study. If God is truly calling this individual God will bless this work. This man has a group of overseers from which to mentor him. These men are normally ordained pastors of Calvary Chapel. This is a time of testing for this church pioneer. If God's grace is evident in his ministry, after a year or so, the overseers gather around this man and confirm God's calling by ordaining him...

There is no requirement of seminary or any other established training program. What is required, is that this man is annoited to teach from the Scriptures.

We know that God is after the heart.

What do you mean by “the heart”?

(My apologies if this sounds like a dumb question. It’s just that “heart” is a bit of a suitcase word. You can put into it it quite an assortment of meanings and uses.)
In other words, what is it about ourselves that God wants?

Diane

Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. I don't think he meant literally puffs up :) I personally feel if your able to use the knowledge you have in anything you learn, and your able to humbly use it to help or teach others, go and gain all you can. I am a gun nut, they are a hobby of mine, so this weekend I was looking at one I am interested in at Academy Sports, and the young kid behind the counter, literally made me go to another Academy Store.

You would have thought this kid invented the Pistol, and he really knew nothing but the basics, and all the folks standing there seemed really embarrassed for the boy, and started asking "me" questions about certain Pistols. I answered a couple questions and left, I did not want to in anyway let the air out of this kids float, he was doing a fine job himself. Hypothetically speaking, if he were a Pastor, he could probably sell you Jesus, but he could not tell you a thing about him.

Hi Rookie,
you wrote:
There is no requirement of seminary or any other established training program. What is required, is that this man is annoited to teach from the Scriptures.

This makes sense.well said.

The problem as I see it and the answer to the problem goes back to the scriptures.Jesus got rid of the clergy class on the cross but we re introduce it to a certain degree by using terms"full time ministry".Thus the leaders see themselves in an unscriptural light but more importantly the rank and file christians see themselves in the wrong light.We all have a full time ministry.Today Paul would not be a full time minister.
It is amazing that we cant comprehend God calling a christian leader that has not gone to a seminary of some kind. Yours Staff

I don't know if this adds anything to this topic...

Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies

In our day it’s more likely that “Ignorance puffs up”. Consider our education system. Genuine learning is less important than conformity. Studious students are un-cool. Countless university students can’t even read, and don’t care to learn any more than is necessary to get the degree – so they can have a good paying job. We have become conditioned to rely on the “experts” to compensate for our ignorance. But many experts have a vast amount of knowledge only in one tiny subject. Today many are proud of their ignorance. And many believe that their ignorance makes them better than the “learned” (equated as capitalists, the elite, etc). Today we don’t puff up knowledge – we puff up fools. There are now celebrities who are good at nothing, but are making millions just by signing autographs and posing for cameras.

Even in the church, ignorance is exalted as spiritual. Preaching which simply “relies on the Spirit” (winging it) is praised above preaching that involves hours of study and preparatory work. A charismatic fool is more admired than a “dull” student of the things of God. The "heart" has become more synonymous with subjective feelings than with the mind (as it is used in scripture).

The opposite of love is not knowledge, but a puffed-up self view. You cannot truly love another when you are standing higher than them.

Here is a prayer for our day:

“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight… “ Philippians 1:9

Diane

It occurs to me that in Paul's day philosophers would go around promoting their new ideas. They would try to draw a following and win debates with all their high-minded knowledge - their "wise and persuasive words". Paul wanted to stress that the gospel doesn't advance that way.

I suspect Paul used the words such as knowledge, wise, and wisdom sarcastically - referring less to wisdom than to to foolishness.

Perhaps our more knowledgeable members here could add insight on this point.

Diane

The reception and love we got from the Roman Catholics there was phenomenal, the protestants (like most of us were) were cool and some actually unfriendly.

Sadly, I must admit to being the same way at times. I might as well have been there BUT the Lord in His great mercy has been patient with me.

If you need a degree or a certificate to preach or teach would you let that stand between you and the Lord's destiny for your life? OR would you humble yourself and do everything possible to satisfy the need to do what the Lord has put on your heart? I don't fault anyone for doing or not doing what they believe the Lord is telling them to do.

Sometimes I have a hard enough time running my life, let alone anyone else's (it's true).

One thing that I do know is; our life is like a vapour. I'm only 42 but it seems like yesterday that my 17 year old daughter was born. Don't waste your time young man, get to know Him, He's more wonderful than word can express.

Peace brothers and sisters!

by learjet...If you need a degree or a certificate to preach or teach would you let that stand between you and the Lord's destiny for your life?

What kind of physical degree's or a certificate's did Jesus have? and wasn't he the shepherd of all shepherds? My guess if you could only literally speak the name Jesus, you could change a life, isn't this what each of our ministries are all about anyway?

Blaine said:

In some Cbineese churches one is not allowed to be a leader unless they have spent time in prison.

This is a significant point. Richard Wurmbrandt (I think) made reference to this in his day. When persecution was over, the older Christians who had attended “prison seminary” and the younger leaders who attended conventional seminary got into disputes over whose training was better. Each side saw limitations in the other, and their judgments against each other were dividing the church. They had to learn to submit to one another.

I wonder…. Why is it that we human beings tend to be so black and white? If one side is good, then the other is necessarily bad. There can only be two shades.

.... Well…. At least it keeps discussion going. :-|

Lest we assume there was no formal teaching for persecuted Christians – here is one segment of the missionary training program – as described by Brother Yun in “The Heavenly Man” pg 290:

“HOW TO ESCAPE FOR THE LORD. We teach missionaries special skills such as how to free themselves from handcuffs, and how to jump from second-story windows without injuring themselves.”

Ignorance is not bliss in persecuted Christianity anymore than in Western Christianity.

PS: I think it should be noted that Wurmbrandt himself was highly learned. He was a brilliant man, though I don't know how he gained so much knowledge. When you read his material you realize that he had a rigorous knowledge base of scripture, theology, theologians, church history, politics, social issues, and so forth. I think he must have had an incredible memory to remember as much as he did - never mind applying so brilliantly.

Diane

In my lifetime I have learned to appreciate people independent of wealth, education or gender. The Lord has taught me to not be partial in relating to people because of their perceived advantages in society. True, there are differences in how one relates to another of the opposite sex, but all things being equal it is not hard...when you learn that one should esteem the other better then themself!

Philippians 2:3-4:

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

The Lord has shown me that there is something to be learned from people who are very diverse from you. When I find people like that I love to pick their brain! And what does it take to do that? It could be anything - anything as simple as a name or accent or a phrase in a conversation. These people may be clergyman, Ph.D.s, politicians, druggies; ordinary people with extra-ordinary interests, jobs, businesses. In our work we depend heavily upon the insights of entomologists, researchers in horticulture, etc. We deeply appreciate one and all.

Having family who are Ph.Ds and a host of other degrees or no degrees will not affect me how I look at them. They are all people who feel and hurt like anybody else. All will have to stand before the great white throne judgment someday and all these degrees or no degrees will not impress the Lord Jesus. Since this is the case, it should not bother me either. We need to love and appreciate each other regardless of education or no education.

There is one thing that does bother me and it is not limited to people of wealth or education and that is arrogance. When I see it, I will turn tail and run. Maybe someday the LORD will help to deal with this better then I have in the past. Usually, in these cases they are argumentative and I weary of those conversations - would rather remove myself from their presence when this happens.

But God is good...we are being changed from glory to glory and this process grates on our ego, is humbling with the end result becoming more Christlike. And it takes a whole lifetime to accomplish this.

God bless.

My testimony and opinion....

KrispyKrittr....This thread almost has an anti-knowledge/education feel to it, and I do not think that this is a good thing at all, brethren (and sisters).

Krispy

Naw, were just playing possum. :)

QUOTE:
Naw, we're just playing possum. :)

Bill, ya better move because here comes Krispy and he might run over ya! :-)

Blaine.....wow dude. You shock me.

YOU STATED: Seminary breeds arrogance and a spiritual elitist.

I RESPOND: Hog wash. Pride in your heart breeds that. NOT sacrificing money, time, etc. because of a hunger to get a fuller and deeper understanding of The Scriptures and ministry. Incredible for you to judge thousands that you know nothing of!

YOU STATED: What I see is a worship and elevation of the seminarian or the systmatic theologian.

I RESPOND: Not sure where you see this...I never have. However, it does seem to me that you probably do not understand what these words you are using mean. Just so we are clear here....you have personally spoke badly of "systematic theology" and "systematic theologians". Do you have any idea what those words actually mean?

DICTIONARY TIME OUT: Here is the definition of systematic theology-

Systematic theology is the division of theology into systems that explain its various areas. For example, many books of the Bible give information about the angels. No one book gives all the information about the angels. Systematic theology takes all the information about angels from all the books of the Bible and organizes it into a system called angelology. That is what systematic theology is all about—organizing the teachings of the Bible into categorical systems. It simply means getting all the balance and counsel from God's Word on a particular subject and studying it in that manner to glean the balance of God's truth on whatever that particular area is. That's it!

Christology is the study of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Pneumatology is the study of God the Holy Spirit. Bibliology is the study of the Bible. Soteriology is the study of salvation. Ecclesiology is the study of the church. Eschatology is the study of the end times. Angelology is the study of angels. Christian Demonology is the study of demons from a Christian perspective. Christian Anthropology is the study of humanity. Hamartiology is the study of sin. Systematic theology is an important tool in helping us to understand and teach the Bible in an organized manner.

Is it helpful to have books that others have put together to help in that process.. OF COURSE IT IS...is it mandatory..OF COURSE NOT! You can research it for your entire life..write it down... and let others glean from your labor in His Word. Evidently you feel this is "arrogant" and need to criticize it.

It is true that in some countries they do not have study aids. I strongly support Bibles, study helps, and prayer getting to those folks in the most efficient and expeditious way possible.

HOWEVER- that has little to nothing to do with why folks in our free and developed countries have an "anti education" attitude. In my experience the primary reason that attitude has often reared its head was laziness... pure and simple! Folks wanted to get a proof text and expound on it to "verify" whatever opinion they held. Deep and disciplined study of scripture takes time, effort, dedication, and lots of it. All the books you disdain are simply helps to enable me to glean from others study and efforts at mining gold from The Father's Love Letters to us.

I am no example... but I do have great hunger for God's Word. My greatest growth came in a 2 year period where I was able to read the ENTIRE New Testament EVERY week. As well as either 1 or 2 Timothy and Titus EVERY day. I did this as a full time college student carrying a full load of classes also working a full time job. To do this you must be willing to go on 4 hours or less sleep every night, day in day out. WHY would someone do that... HUNGER for knowledge of His word and truth.

It also meant doing many word studies, character studies, cultural background research, and myriads of other studies. WHY DO THAT? Because that is the only way to accurately get to the message that the Holy Spirit originally intended for the folks who read it to understand. We then take that original truth and apply it to our lives and circumstances that will shape us into His image in the world we live in. We would call that hermeneutics. Again,something you seem to disdain others for practicing.

A final issue is this. If a person fails to do due diligence in their study in our western free cultures with countless study helps available because they simply are lazy then I suppose it hurts no one except them . The Lord will judge them for being unprofitable , lazy servants as they did not use the talents available to them.
However, the greater danger is this... they will easily find themselves under false doctrines and teachings because they do not invest the time necessary to be sound. They will THINK they are... but rarely is that the case.
As an example.. ..

YOU STATED: Are the man or woman who have only a New Testament and the Holy Spirit to lead and teach are not used by God
I RESPOND: Of course He can use them. What about the person who has NO scripture available to them at all? However, consider this...with just a New Testament, no Old Testament or research tools to help understand the culture it was set in, you would then be clueless as to why Jesus was the Jewish fulfillment of The Messiah... or the book of Hebrews is absolutely non sensical without understanding the Old Testament system..how do you explain that Jesus is the "second" Adam with no Old Testament ????? I could go on and on...however these are a few examples. Without proper study you will consistently be espousing error.. interpreting what you are reading as if it was written last week. IT WASN'T.. it takes time, work, effort, and investment to mine the truths of God's Word out to accurately interpret and apply it. Can a person just read scripture and be blessed and hear from God.. ABSOLUTELY! However, if you are desiring to be a teacher of others that requires a much greater commitment and dedication from you.

Remember Paul's admonition to "study to show yourself approved..rightly handling the word of truth"... and James 3:1..."Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly". If a person believes they are called to lead others through God's Word it is an incredibly serious thing they have entered. If you, or anyone, is unwilling to put their all into all angles of study to get all they can then please sit down and do not teach. It will damage the sheep and eventually get a strict rebuke from the Lord. To feed His Word to His people requires using everything at our disposal to insure we are doing the most accurate and best job we can... then trusting Him to supply where we may lack.

I apologize if I have come off a little strong. I never do on these forums... except when I see others attacked . You have spoke badly and passed judgement on many you know nothing of. I happen to know some of them.. and the ones I know were falsely accused by you in this thread. Do with that as your conscience dictates...as for me I apologize if I came off to strong. However, I do not retract anything from what I believe are the standards required of those who believe they are called to teach His Word... nor do I retract anything from my defense of the brothers who have been wrongly maligned in some posts on this thread.

That all said... I pray blessing to you and all who love Him. May we all grow in our knowledge of Him and His Word.

Hi All,
If God calls a person to seminary or bible college then thats great.If God calls a person to ministry without college thats great.A church leader first and foremost has to be called into that position by God.Just because they do or do not attend a seminary is not important.
Just because a person goes to a seminary doesnt nessacarily mean they are called into a leadership role.
It is important that the right person is in the right positions from head to the toe in the body.Only God can do this.Unity in the body is when the toe is a toe and the leg is a leg etc. Yours Staff

What kind of physical degree's or a certificate's did Jesus have? and wasn't he the shepherd of all shepherds? My guess if you could only literally speak the name Jesus, you could change a life, isn't this what each of our ministries are all about anyway?

Hi MrBillPro,

Sorry for the bad communication on my part, the point is would you humble yourself and go to seminary (insert other school here) in order to get a certificate/degree (tattoo? **joking**) to fulfill the mission? I hear you regarding Jesus but He only did and went where the Father told Him to do/go. The Father told Him to go to the cross, in no uncertain terms. Would you sacrifice personally and do something that you did not want to do in order to fulfill God's plan for your life?

Jesus did
Brainerd did
Whitfield did
Wesley did
Spurgeon did
Hudson Taylor did

Personally, with me it would be like pulling teeth, the professors would hate me because if they taught something that I thought was inaccurate I wouldn't stand for it.

**CAVEAT** Personally, if I could find a school/program that A) Would not put me in debt and B) Aligned theologically with the New Covenant model, I would do it (there Lord I said it, after deleting and pasting and deleting and pasting (repeat times 5) this line).

I agree with the premise that a certificate and/or a degree does not make a 'man of God' however, it does qualify you in the eyes of men (from a carnal standpoint) and give you a platform to speak from (that's reality). Because John the Baptist was foreordained to preach in the wilderness doesn't mean that it was going to be a qualification (or disqualification) for others.

I hope that clears up my earlier post.

Much peace to all of you!

Where are the unschooled ordinary men?

Many of the men that I hang with at prayer meeting would not be capable of participating in this type of forum. Some have epileptic fits which prevent them from being gainfully employed. Others have suffered the ravages of the Vietnam war. Others have suffered addictions which have compromised their health and minds.

Yet many of these men speak into each others lives the truth of God. Many share Holy Spirit led exhortations with one another in the right moment at the right time. These men glorify our Lord because His grace enables them to continue to live and grow in hope and love. They have found something that is not part of this world. These are the men Paul writes about...

1Cr 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called].

1Cr 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

1Cr 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

1Cr 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

There are times where I cannot pray out loud with these men for fear of possibly injecting some unintended distraction from what the Lord is working at that moment.

learjet.....
Hi MrBillPro,

Sorry for the bad communication on my part, the point is would you humble yourself and go to seminary (insert other school here) in order to get a certificate/degree (tattoo? **joking**) to fulfill the mission?.

It ok Earl, I only said this because a lot of folks want to be like Jesus, but also feel that some credentials are needed to fulfill their journey. All Christians have a ministry, some inside walls some outside the walls, but the respect should be equal. You asked would I sacrifice personally and do something that I did not want to do in order to fulfill God's plan for my life? My answer to that is "if" your a true Christian your sacrificing something everyday.

You said:
Jesus did
Brainerd did
Whitfield did
Wesley did
Spurgeon did
Hudson Taylor did

Yes they did! but what about all the good folks out there that we never hear about, that have sacrificed maybe more than Brainerd,Whitfield,Wesley,Spurgeon,and Hudson Taylor. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the more notable folks, we don't even entertain the the thought of, there are probably ones out yonder that deserve the same notoriety. It's a sad day in the Church, when we have to become a Church of notoriety, the only notable person I recognize in my personal walk is Jesus Christ, the rest are folks should be no more notable than I am. Everyone of us have something "unique" to offer, there is another Billy Graham out there, there is another Brainerd,Whitfield,Wesley,Spurgeon, out there, they either don't want the notoriety, or just have not received it yet.

What I do see is a professional, protestant priesthood developing. here. Those who have gone to seminary are suddenly looked upon as the custodians of truth.

In my denomination, it is not the seminary graduates, but the ordained clergy themselves who are the custodians of truth (and a lot of other stuff). There are only two categories of people: professional ordained or laity. I think that professionalism is harming the denomination horribly.

The whole scope of scripture, particularly the New Testament, is God's revelation to man.

Yet if the Old Testament becomes diminished in priority, the New Testament truths are threatened. Jesus and the NT writers relied heavily on the OT to support their teachings. Hasn’t the neglect of OT in itself made the church vulnerable to certain heresies? I think this is where a rigorous systematic theology for the leadership can help maintain the fuller scope in the church.

The understanding of scripture comes through the Holy Spirit opening them up to us.

In my understanding of scripture God does indeed use people to teach, equip, and help make people heresy- resistant. We find few in our churches like John the Baptist – trained in the desert by the Spirit. Conversely, reliance on the clergy and the institution keeps people immature. That is a valid concern! The issue here seems to be the same one I raise in the submission thread: What of ourselves do we give to human authority, and what is God’s alone?

Diane

You wrote:

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the more notable folks, we don't even entertain the the thought of, there are probably ones out yonder that deserve the same notoriety. It's a sad day in the Church, when we have to become a Church of notoriety, the only notable person I recognize in my personal walk is Jesus Christ, the rest are folks should be no more notable than I am. Everyone of us have something "unique" to offer, there is another Billy Graham out there, there is another Brainerd,Whitfield,Wesley,Spurgeon, out there, they either don't want the notoriety, or just have not received it yet.

I agree with you 100%, most folks who receive notoriety are usually long gone before anyone knows about them (Brainerd). Thanks for reminding me (seriously), sometimes I think the Lord just takes many of them home early because He wants so badly to have them in His heavenly presence, it's His garden.

Here's an article about a local pastor that died about a year ago, he was an amazing person that I never got to meet: http://on.freep.com/tq7dsr

If you get to see the movie on TV "Have a Little Faith" watch it, it's about him (and Mitch's relationship). Mitch is a Jewish dude and you have to sort through the 'all faiths lead to one place feely good trash' but this is the only time I've ever seen a very clear testimony on national TV. He tells Mitch flat out 'Mitch I deserve hell, I've done everything that a person can do wrong but Jesus saved me', cried my eyes out watching it. I watched it to learn more about Henry Covington, amazing story. The (true) story starts out with Mitch's rabbi calling him to write his eulogy years before his death and goes from there.

Your post served to remind me that heavenly thinking is the opposite of carnal thinking, the last thing that the Creator of the Universe for His disciples is wash the their feet. Pauls upward trajectory started as the 'least of apostles' then to the 'least of the saints' and finally to 'the chief of sinners'. Carnally speaking that would be a downward slope, heavenly speaking his trajectory would look like the space shuttle taking off. :-)

Thanks again, and I hope you have a wonderful evening!

With much love!

Hi Blaine:

You wrote:

What I do see is a professional, protestant priesthood developing. here.

Isn't it interesting that I see the same posts that you do and I don't see it? I see passionate folks who have a desire for truth, to be sure there are a few Pharisee's as there is anywhere else but a rampant problem? No.

Jesus said:

But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! -MT 6:23

Is your eye black brother? Is all that you notice dark? Take time to notice the Lord's glory, we sometimes don't recognize it but it's there:

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another: And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.” -Isaiah 6:1-3b

Please understand that I'm not writing from anger, to be standoffish or anything of the sort, seriously.

There is an excellent sermon here on this site called "A Beautiful Mind" that has one of the most beautiful quotes in it that I've ever heard in my life:

"When I see you brothers and sisters, I don't see your faults, I see Christ working in you"

Edgar is a beautiful broken man! This sermon explains the mind of Christ and helped me immensely, now my eye isn't as black. I'm not telling you something that is afar off, I've struggled with 'a black eye' too much in my life and would not want anyone to ever suffer from the same thing, no not my worst enemy, well I don't have any human enemies but you get the point. ;-)

Here's the link: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=972

Much love!

martyr, good job. I am also a common un-schooled man that just follows the word of God. I do not have eloquent speach, I tell it as it is or as the spirit gives me utterance.

My Grandfather was a Nazarene pastor. He had a sixth grade education and couldn't read well. However, he was schooled by the Holy Spirit and understood and could read the bible very well.

Even the educated need to be schooled by the spirit.

Where are the unschooled ordinary men? When I first read the title of this thread, I thought Jesus Christ started it. :)

Our now retired pastor liked to relate the observation of a now-deceased well-known evangelist.

Bro. Brunk was well trained in theology, had degrees from prestigious schools but he never flaunted them - I did not even know this until this pastor told us. Anyhow, Bro. Brunk says he is amazed how a person with only an 8th grade education, who is a student of the WORD, knows the LORD, will come to the same conclusion regarding the Scriptures as he does!

Today what one sees a lot is a mind whose approach to the WORD is that it is to support a preconceived concept in matters of life and doctrine, regardless of what the WORD says.You can debate until the cows come home and they are not going to understand because it is not what they want to believe. The arguments, the excuses will differ, range all the way from I do not want to believe that (at least this is honest) to a manipulating of words to make the WORD say something other then the original intent. This mindset is not restricted to people of education - it is found everywhere independent of schooling.

The Chinese persecuted church is held as an example of a pure church, one that is not contaminated by materialism or elitism. So, why does the Chinese church struggle with false doctrine? False teachers? Why are there people who lived in isolation taken in with Harold Camping?

The devil will work to deceive regardless of education and he is succeeding.

(Having said all this I do wonder if God does not have a special place reserved in hell for preachers and any others who have led their people astray...)

Blaine, so you never study the Scriptures?

2Timothy 2:15:2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the context in which this is written is...2Ti 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."
AND 2Ti 2:16: "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

In other words, one is commanded to be a student of the WORD so you can rightfully defend it shunning profane and foolish babblings because they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Your distain for the written WORD is becoming obvious...you will go off the rails unless you become a student of the WORD of God. The written WORD will teach you whether this spirit within is of the LORD or not.

EDIT: FYI, in our church alliance we do not have a professional clergy, but we are expected to be serious students of the written WORD of God, both members and ministers.

Wow!

I would say, where is the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit here!

I know Brother Blaine as well. And I have never heard a saint pray the Scriptures or quote the Scriptures from memory more than Brother Blaine. His love & hunger for the Word of God is deep.

He is just trying to say, it seems like, that we dont need formal education to know the Word of God or to share it. We just have to go to the Word with a hunger and the Holy Spirit will teach us. Not so confusing, I would say, with all the doctrines and opinions going on with what the Word is saying. Being a learned person can be without Christ dwelling in them. That is so sad. That is not of our God!

I personally need and want to know the Word for myself, not by someone elses interpretation but my own from the Holy Spirit. And when we ask God to show us He is so faithful to do so.

As far as books, I get most from people's testimonies of what God has done in their lives. More than all the teachers. Sorry if this offends anyone. Just stating my experience here.

Two New Testiment commands from the mouth of Jesus. Love the Lord Your God with everything you have and love your neighbor as yourself. All the commandments is summed up with these.

If our goal in life as a Christian is to get to know our Savior - Jesus Christ - the desires of this world will fall away and our focus will become more and more upon Him and we will fulfill the two commandments.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lord, I want to know You not just about You.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, Lord, give me the gypsy's, the bikers, the prostitutes, the poor in spirit, the homeless, the down & out who have given their hearts to You Lord. Oh, to be so blessed to be in their presence simply loving You with joy unspeakable and full of glory. The ones who have one Bible for a whole village & come together to learn of You, to know You, who are excited about You Lord. The ones who are humble in heart because of You, broken because of You. Not trying but just are. Not a lot of do's and don'ts. Just a passion for You Lord. All the rest will fall in place as we seek Your Face, seek to get to know You, love You, embrace You. Free to worship You in spirit & Truth, with no religious spirit. With the persecuted who love You even unto death. Oh, Lord for these as my companions - such an incredible honor. Makes me to fall at Your feet and weep with a humble honor, a humble thanksgiving to be in the presence of such that love You so simply yet so deeply Lord. The ones who are most like You Jesus.

I admit, I am having a hard time resolving the various matters raised. So far I’ve struck out badly in my attempts to understand the issue.

EDIT: Words removed because they are not helpful or edifying.

I love you all; and you are my brothers and sisters. You can all help me grow in Christ.

Diane

Hi Blaine,

Under the New Covenant it is the Holy Spirit who teachhes and instruct the believer in Christ.

You are in error, it's really that simple.

Using your reasoning there would be no need for the gift of teaching mentioned in Corinthians, thus making the word contradict itself.

brother i agree with you totally, you must be called chosen and sent by god i would rather have a pastor or preacher that goes to the same school moses went to, burning bush university, i guess their are some good theological teachers out their macarthur being my favorite teacher but the problem with seminary is you learn a religeon depending on which one you go to, i think alot of these theological preachers don't have much of an annointing on their preaching and have to rely on alot of pragmatism to build their congregations, instead of letting god build the church and churches are in the sad shape their in because they are looking for these type of preachers that degree sure is important to them, give me a god annointed and appointed sent preacher any day over these so called dr's. my favorite preachers are the ones that didn't need to go to seminary school, they rely on their bible and study and the holy spirit to teach them,i think the churches today are in so bad of shape because god can annoint you to preach the gospel and their not the ones the churches want, alot of the professors in bible college are not even christians god bless you brother

Jesus said, “Be perfect.” Matt. 5:48

I wouldn’t mind your comments on these thoughts:

Since I’ve returned to SI a few months ago, I’ve been noticing a prevailing phenomenon (which has always existed). It has to do with a common style of thinking. It surfaces in thread after thread. I’m not sure I understand what is going on. So, I’ll throw it out there. Maybe you can help me. Here’s what I see:

It seems that Christians, to a large degree, view the world as a courtroom. They themselves are the judges responsible to make a verdict about ideas and people. Everything must be categorized as either good or bad - innocent or guilty. In our minds, one side must win over and against the other. It’s a black-and-white style of thinking.

Now, here I am being a judge myself – so, clearly I have the bug too. Can you help me: Why are our minds wired that way? Is it God-given? Is it cultural conditioning?

As I mediate on the theme of Christian submission, it is becoming more and more evident that our "courtroom" habit of thinking is the antithesis of submission. It is not natural for us to THINK “submissively”. I speak for myself; and that troubles me! Submission is not a theme I naturally integrate with my thinking. It's that way for many. Is it because it doesn’t lend itself to the courtroom setting? Is it because it demolishes the courtroom on us?

One thing I do know is that God constantly uses the very “side” we deem guilty or inferior as the platform for his greatest works. For the scholar, God uses a child. For the Jew, a Samaritan. For the conservative, a liberal (as in the Hebrides revival). So for you, brian33, God may use a scholar with three rows of letters after her name. That may be your burning bush experience. And you sure wouldn’t want to reject God’s blessing because of the vessel!

I suspect that in most cases it is not up to us to choose one over the other. In God’s government there is no democracy. In God’s government, our duty is to submit to the other “side” in Christian love. And in that way we find far more joy then we can imagine - because we are becoming “perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect”. It’s perfect love. See Matt. 5:43-48

PS I don't want to diminish the concerns presented here regarding education. I just don't think it is our duty to vote for one over the other. We will merely short-change ourselves from God's blessings.

What do you think?

Diane

brother i am not trying to be a judge that is god's job i am simply giving my opinion if you are called to preach god will enable you when it comes to being a preacher either you is or you isn't bible college won't make you one. most of the theologians preach over everybody's head it is not up to an individual to decide what his calling is, the greatest teacher we have is the holy spirit and the word of god now god may lead some to bible college i'm not saying he don't but in my opinion the best preachers didn't go to bible college but i know their are alot of people that go to bible college to learn how to be a preacher because they may not seek was god calling is for them one of my favorite teachers is a theologian john macarthur and as much as i love him sometimes i have a problem understanding all his teachings not every one sitting in the pews are theologians some of the worst preachers i have ever heard are bible schooled i would personally know that i am sitting under aholy spirit annointed preacher the bible says in the last days their will be a famine for the truth and that has proved to be right i don't have anything against anyone that wants to go to bible college and i am not judging , just giving my opininion i say this with love and hope that i have not offended you may god richly bless you roadsign

Thank you for sharing your burdens, Brian. I have those concerns too! Indeed a PROPER education should equip God’s servants to bring rich truths to the hearts of ordinary people like us.

I see that Blaine, who began this thread, has requested that we close the door here. So let's honor that request now. Later I will comply to his suggestion and bring my post to my Submission thread. See you there!

May God surround you and your loved ones with his blessings this Christmas season,

Diane

thank you roadsign i also pray that god may surround you and your loved ones too may you have a very merry christmas i hope to chat with you in the future have a blessed day