Slayed by the Spirit?

I have been discipling a fellow worker who was once backsliden and now is filled with the fire of the Lord. He attends a Vietnames Assembly of God. During the Christmas holiday he attended a retreat up in the Sierra Mountains. There, he cried out to the Lord and twice he and his wife testify that the Spirit of God knocked them to the ground. Since I have not been around Pentecostal ministries, and am not familiar with their doctrine, is this what they call being "slayed in the Spirit?"The things he described to me sounded like those who fell before the preaching of Wesley and Finney.Are there any threads concerning this type of testimony?In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff,The term used in Penecostal circles is "slain in the Spirit."You can do a google search on slain in the Spirit and get many hits. My own experience is that when I was a small boy people sometimes fell back because they were under tremendous conviction from the Holy Spirit. I felt something on a couple of occasions and I fell back one time as I recall.I have only rarely seen this since I returned to the Lord but the difference now is that I don't see conviction of sin when this has occurred and nothing happened to me. One of the primary gifts of the Holy Spirit is conviction of sin. If I don't have that conviction, then I know my heart has hardened and then I have to repent of that coldness.I guess the question I would ask is there conviction that accompanies this phenemona? If not, I would recommend staying away from it.

I know this brother had been convicted of smoking. He felt hypocritical telling others about what God was doing in his life and smoking at the same time. He testified that his testimony was not glorifying God. Before this retreat, he had struggled in his flesh to stop this habit which had been part of his life for over 20 years. He testified to me that he made another attempt to stop smoking by not taking any cigarettes with him to the retreat. He didn't smoke for 4 days during the retreat. He then came home and gave into temptation once again. But this time he became ill and could not continue smoking that cigarette. It has now been 12 days. He testifies that God has healed him of smoking. What I find heart rendering is this, everywhere he goes, he tries to tell others of the good news in his life. This is one example. Last week he had to go to the dentist to have a root canal done. As the dentist was injecting novecane into the area of the problem tooth, my friend blurted out, "Jesus healed me of smoking." His dentist, just sat there with his mouth open. My friend began to witness to the dentist and then his helper about what Jesus is doing in his life. The dentist sat there for 30 minutes just listening to him. This dentist was a buddist. Well after the procedure was completed, the dentist gave my friend his business card and wrote his personal cell phone number on it. My friend will be talking to me, and in the middle of our conversation about some Scripture, he will just start crying. The love of Jesus is always on his lips. And of course, I ask these questions to you all, because I ask myself, how satisfied am I with my present walk? I began discipling my friend and now his testimony is convicting me. In ChristJeff

RookieI have witnessed, on one occasion, one brother being “slain in the Spirit”. He is a member of this forum and perhaps his testimony will be more insightful than mine will…It was the first time we had ever prayed together and we had often spoken of spiritual experiences and discussed bible doctrine but we had never prayed together in this manner (I do not usually pray in tongues or with groaning around other people). As we prayed, the Lord spoke to my heart and asked me to lay my hands on him. We were both standing as we prayed and I placed my hand on his head and immediately he fell back. I felt absolutely nothing and was shocked to see it happen …I barely caught him as he hit the ground. He was in a trans from this point and we began to speak in the same (spiritual) tongue to each other while he was still in a trans. The mind was completely unfruitful from this exchange but I can tell you for a fact that spiritually he has seen many more manifestation after this. Neither of us are Pentecostals nor have we ever been to a Pentecostal meeting nor are we familiar with the terms they use but, if the description I hear of being “slain in the Spirit” are accurate then this is definitely what happened. Those who have read my posts before know that I like to quote scripture to back up anything I say but unfortunately, there is none I can think of… you will just have to take my word for it. Perhaps I can get the brother to write a post to give you a first hand account of what took place. I have omitted many things because this is more of his testimony than it is mine…In Christ James

I think there have been occasional comments on this phenomena but I can't find them. The overall issue with any physical phenomena is that it is NOT true reasoning to say 'x happened therefore y must be true'. If the x is the sudden trance state there is no way that we can calculate what 'y' is.This, when genuine, is a physical phenomena. (Im sure with some it is self-induced) It may have had a physical cause, or an emotional cause, a psychiatric cause or a demonic cause, or a Holy Spirit cause. People then usually say 'well, by their fruit you will know them'..'and this person has been blessed, helped, convicted... etc.' Again it is not really possible to make a one-to-one conclusion about this. If someone genuinely reaches out to God there may be a great mixture of causes.There is a verse in Isaiah that I often turn over in my mind. It refers to the maker of idols. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. (Isa 44:14-15 KJV)This man has planted a tree with the intention of nurturing it to become good timber so that he can make an idol. No doubt he is confirmed in his convictions that this is the right thing to do in that ‘the rain doth nourish it’. Is God encouraging his folly? (Rain is almost always a sign of God’s favour in the OT.) Why doesn’t God stop the confusion by withholding the rain? This man is going to create an idol because God has ‘nourished’ his plans. Why doesn’t God put things into neat boxes? There is mixture everywhere. I wish it were not so, I have often prayed that it were not so, but there is. And a brief reading of the NT will tell us that it has always been the same. Why doesn’t God sort the sheep from the goats now? That Ananias and Sapphira judgement was scary but at least people knew where they stood. I am sure that in the ‘being slain in the spirit’ phenomena there is ‘mixture’ too.Some have made quite an issue about the direction in which people fall. Prostration before the Lord they say was always forwards, onto your face. Whereas ‘being slain in the spirit’ is usually backwards. There may be some truth in this but I would just like to make a practical point that falling forwards is much safer! That may not sound a very biblical contribution. The concept of ‘catchers’ developed in some circles. Did I tell you this story? I can document it. A close friend met his cousin in an UK town. The cousin was limping and it transpired that he had ‘put out a disc’ in his back. He was in considerable pain. My friend asked how the injury had occurred. “In a healing meeting”, came the answer. Apparently the man, a deacon in his local church, had been nominated as a ‘catcher’ for a series of evangelistic meetings by a visiting evangelist. The pattern was that as the evangelist laid his hands on the sick they were ‘slain in the spirit’ and toppled backwards quite rigidly. The deacon took his station behind a large woman. When she ‘keeled over’ he caught her and ‘slipped a disc’. I have no idea whether or not the woman was healed; I only know that the catcher was seriously injured.I have witnessed the phenomenon of people falling down after prayer. I have often seen people on their faces before God, but they usually got down themselves in an act of contrition or worship. The recent ‘Toronto Blessing’ made this phenomenon almost a hallmark of the Holy Spirit’s presence and power. This is foolish and dangerous; other spirits can produce this effect. To begin to measure the power of a meeting by the number of prostrations is also dangerous. Bonhoeffer once said “Quantities are competitive, qualities are complementary.” I am not always sympathetic to Bonhoeffer but I think this statement is exemplarary good sense.In the early days of the Lord’s earthly time His ‘physical phenomena’ drew many to Him, but their dependence upon Him as a ‘phenomena’ producer created a faith He could not build on. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, (Joh 2:23-24 ASV) If the phenomenon genuinely draws people to Christ who can object? But if it results in a preoccupation with the phenomenon it is working against the Holy Spirit who ever seeks to focus our attention upon Christ.

Thanks Ron,This produced some chuckles which I have repented of. It's kind of difficult to hear My friend asked how the injury had occurred. “In a healing meeting”, came the answer. and not... Yet, having had past vertebrae misalignment know just how acute this can be.Ron, you are becoming more and more quotable everyday;Why doesn't’t God put things into neat boxes? And There is mixture everywhere. I wish it were not so, I have often prayed that it were not so, but there is.How's that go...? 'You say tomato, I say tomoto'...Indeed it's true. Mixture...muddy, my word of choice. A lot of sorting and hard to characterize everything into neat little piles. But will say that this idea of 'holy men' applying their hands to ones forehead while manipulating (either intentionally or not) the atmosphere, and having 'catchers' and of course the proverbial shove, just to get the ball rolling so to speak, is nothing short of psychological manipulation. And I think it is bogus and despicable frankly. Came out of this sloth and to see sincere believers being played with in this way always gets my dander up.This so called phenomenon is only so in that it is largely cooked up in imagination of mere men who ought to know better.There has been talk around here on this subject before, will see if I can back track it. But wish I could go back and turn the tables on my own experience with a Mr. Humbard at one of Benny Hinn's little manipulation conventions. I bowed to the atmospheric pressure and 'went along with it' though absolutely nothing happened other than having someone push me in the forehead even though I was enamored with this gentleman and was full of anticipation. If now was then, would have stood my ground and blown the cover off the whole charade, of course knowing what I do now wouldn't find me anywhere near one of these things...hmmm, could see myself doing some open-air on the other hand....And here comes the... 'but'.Can recall a couple of years ago an somewhat elderly gentleman calling in to the Bible Answer Man as this 'phenomenon' was in full stride and he was sincere and confused by it all. He said that he was so overcome by the presence of the Lord while in what was an otherwise normal service, nothing orchestrated, that he fell to the floor in his pew, don't recall if it was necessarily conviction or just being overwhelmed, but this dear soul was in tears as he explained it, it's still etched in my memory. He was so concerned that what happened to him was a possible trick of either the devil or part of this whole so called 'slain....' that he didn't know what to make of it. Mr. Hanaggraff graciously dealt with him in a very loving way, explaining that this certainly was not uncommon to be overwhelmed either by conviction or just by the Lords sheer presence.In actuality and largely in scripture it makes perfect sense that we would be anywhere else but standing upon our feet in the Presence of pure Holiness, be that of our Lord or angels. But it's all the difference in the world between theatrics and reality.

Thanks for the response. With the response, these particular parts were present with my friend.First, he testified, that the man prayed for him for some time and nothing happened. The man then went to the next individual and began praying. It was my friends desire to know the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He said he lifted his hands to God and then he fell backwards and stiffened. Secondly, there were men assigned to catch individuals.Thirdly, once on the floor he was stiff. One individual sought to bend his arm inward toward his chest. Upon release of his arm, my friends arm sprang back to the original position, that position, representing the cross. All I know at this point is that my friend was on fire before he went to this retreat. And now the fire is burning hotter. I appreciate all your responses. I too am weary. Yet, my friend, my brother, stated that he too was unbelieving until it happened to him. In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff,I know that you are a level headed brother and wouldn't want to make my own particular experience or opinion anything other than what it is.It really is irrelevant in one sense, but for what it's worth...I had a dream a number of years ago, that was very vivid. The essence cumulated in a number of people who had fallen prostrate and I recall as I approached them saying out loud (in the dream) "Lord, you know I don't by into all this 'slain-in the spirit' stuff..." the next thing I knew I was literally crushed to the ground, not backwords or forwards, but sideways..it was very overwhelming, a sense of His power and not a thing I could do but lie there in awe.Doesn't prove or disapprove anything other than we certainly by know means have everything figured out.

I've been in services where people were obviously trying to just be more wild/holy-rollerish than the next person. I've seen people pushed down, or people lining up just to have the experience of being slain in the spirit, which is not something we should not seek in and of itself.However, the other side of the coin is trying to outline what God can and cannot do. He often does things that we may not be entirely comfortable with. I think the acid test is where the emphasis is. Are we thinking "wow, what a great service, half the audience and the entire choir were slain in the spirit" or are we thinking, "thank you Jesus that You were free to come and change lives"?I grew up with a rather pentecostal bend, but have only been slain in the spirit once. The preacher did not lay a hand on me and I do not remember falling. I just remember that one moment I was standing and the next moment I was laying on the ground in His presence amidst perfect peace.Phebe

In my own experience, I have been slain in th spirit twice. The first time was in the summer of 1999 while on internship. A fellow brother and I were discussing things and he told me that God told him to tell me that I was supposed to be a warrior for God. Now I didn't really think God would use me in this capacity but that's what God told him. Later on that night as we were talking with another brother, the 3 of us were standing and I felt myself begin to rock backward and forward involuntarily. I remember thinking it to be unsual but I had not idea what was to take place just then. Now Leo was standing in front of me as we faced eachother and then I felt myself falling back away from Leo then all of a sudden he caught me from behind and laid me dowm. At this point Leo instructed me to let the spirit do what it had to with me so I did and the spirit began to repeat a phrase in a foreign tongue and it did so for some time after that. As I lay there I convulsed some but after it all I was not hurt. At that time I had seen such things happen but didn't think anything of them.Then recently it happened again when my brother James came by one day to pray as God instructed him. So we stood and he prayed and laid his hands on as he faced me and I fell back. Again as before I'm unsure as to how he got behind me in time to catch me but he did. At this time the spirit began to speak once again the same phrase it did in '99 but with time the spirit spoke with more force and the speech was expanded greatly. Then my spirit began to speak with my brother's spirit. All along God had been slowly revealing to me and confirming to me what Leo had told me in '99 and it has come to pass. God deals with His children as He sees fit and this is how He dealt with me and many others. Many people dismiss this as rubbish but I thought it rubbish myself till it happened to me. Since then God has increased the power of His spirit within me to do His work accordingly. You may ask how I know it was God and all I can say is the more God does through me the more I see that this is not of myself because it makes me more aware of my own faults and that this is UNDOUBTEDLY God doing what he sees fit. I have seen God do things through me that are difficult to descibe, even when I explain them to James I am overwhelmed because the flesh cannot comprehend the things of the spirit, understand them or profit from them because such things are foreign to the flesh.This is my story and I hope it gives some insight on this topic.

This remains a difficult thread, I think. As a statistical sample it is defective in that we are only likely to hear evidence from those who have survived, and yet each reference tends to make the phenomenon legitimate.I don't think this has any of the characteristics of prostrations recorded at times of revival. There the emphasis was God-consciousness and a sense of overwhelming unworthiness. In the modern phenomena we have convulsions, spasticity and a focus on the event that doesn't sound at all healthy to me.I have moved in these circles and am not afraid of these events, but I would never seek them. Nor would I visit a place where they are 'likely' to happen. I have also seen the phenomenon used to manipulate crowds and individuals. Bible teachers are often asked their views of such events. I used to say I can't help you with this, I'm a Bible teacher and the Bible has nothing to say on the topic. Superficially there are New Testament precedents but in the New Testament the phenomenon seems to be associated with evil spirits leaving rather than by a Holy Spirit arriving.God is God, and He may do as He wishes. The dangers arise with the theology. When we try to systematise the event, or find the means to reproduce it we have moved into speculative theology, rather than Bible teaching. My recommendation,for the survivors, would be to actively press on with God, laying no lasting importance to the event. Self-forgetfulness is a healthy trait in the growing soul. Move on, reach out to God, do not seek for a repitition, centre everything on Christ. Make love your aim. Today is the day of salvation, not yesterday.

Very, very well said. Amen.

Hello everyoneBrothers and sisters, this post is in response to some personal conversations I have had with some brothers and is not at all an attack on anyone, so please take no offense. As brother Ron said, this is a very difficult subject and emotions are likely to run high if we are not cautious.To begin, let us be exceedingly careful when we refer to anything that may have the Holy Spirit involved in it. I say, “may have” because, for those who have never experienced this phenomena it is probably the best you can say. Let us remember that Balaam prophesied and he was not an Israelite nor was he voluntarily in God’s will and yet the Holy Spirit still used him. Saul prophesied when he was at the brink of mental collapse and consumed with jealousy and the Holy Spirit still used him. Samson slept with prostitutes (definitely against God’s will) and was still endued with the Holy Ghost power.Again, Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Without a doubt, prophesying is the highest order of spiritual gifts and yet one can prophesy in the name of the Lord and still not be right with God. If I were to make a human assessment, I would say that such a person is demon possessed, but such an assessment borders on blasphemy… To attribute the works of the Holy Ghost to the Devil is blasphemy. I can see easily why many spiritual phenomena have a bad report due to the conduct of people who perform them or are exercised in them but this still does not mean that they are not of God. Remember, Mark 9:39 “But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”Concerning those who are slain in the Spirit. Let us examine the three examples we have from the members of this forum starting with that of Brother Jeff. What was the effect of the phenomena on his friend? He began to testify about the Lord to man, some of whom may never have heard anything “real” about God. The brother is undoubtedly of good repute because if it causes even the likes of Brother Jeff to question the meaning of such things means that he is not some fruitcake. The testimony of a sound person of good repute is very potent! Imagine Jeff’s friend was your close friend, brother or son, whom you know well, and you know such a thing has never happened to him. It is not so easy to dismiss this as being a fake or the works of Satan…it will probably cause you to seek out God a little more fervently. Who can be against that? Although this phenomenon in itself is not fruitful, it is for a sign. The person who experiences this, all of a sudden has a very “real” God and he is compelled to seek him out and to talk of him more openly. Some individuals have ministries, which carry this as a sign (not that this is the only sign). Signs verify things for those of little faith, and even them who are mature in Christ are greatly encouraged by a sign. It excites the human condition and motivates discussions and research about, “who this God really is”. This is not to say that the men and women with signs in their ministry are infallible but it does indicate a few things. Firstly, perhaps the person is in fact walking very close to God. Secondly, the person may have been walking very close to God at some point but has backslidden to some extent but has retained the sign (Samson was backslidden but retained his Holy Ghost strength). Lastly and perhaps most seriously, the person is completely evil and is using the power of Satan to deceive God’s Children.Signs, wonders and miracles in themselves are not Christ but, let us remember dear siblings, we ALL are the body of Christ. Just as you cannot express your personality through your eye alone, Christ cannot express himself through only a few members. How great would it be if all members were unified? The problem we have is that, as soon as we receive a little manifestation of Christ, be it in wisdom, knowledge, preaching, healing or tongues etc… we want to break of and start a new denomination and we become divided against each other. We cannot stand like this. We have had 2000 years of proof that any one ministry by itself cannot evangelize the world. I sense myself drifting of into another topic so I’ll stop here for now.In ChristJames

Hi James,Came back to put this in a different section but it seems to fit here. Before that though, still must state that largely this is overwrought with just plain nonsense as it is 'practiced'. One of the areas not really dealt with here is the issue of very similiar 'phenomenon' in occult practice's.Not really attempting anything other than to be sober minded about all of this. Would have to side with Ron's earlier comments in the broader sense, exceptions naturally expected, but don't find they validate anything as far as the so called 'phenomenon' is concerned. More reasoning here; SLAIN IN THE SPIRITBut as it relates to your thought's, this did seem to find a niche;Christian Quotation of the DayJanuary 10, 2005"The 'outsider' who knows nothing of the mixture of tradition, conviction, honest difference, and hidden resentment, that lies behind the divisions of the Christian Church sees clearly the advantage of a united Christian front and cannot see why the Churches cannot 'get together'. The problem is doubtless complicated, for there are many honest differences held with equalsincerity, but it is only made insoluble because the different denominations are (possiblyunconsciously) imagining God to be Roman or Anglican or Baptist or Methodist or Presbyterian or what have you. If they could see beyond their little inadequate god, and glimpse the reality of God, they might even laugh a little and perhapsweep a little. The result would be a unity that actually does transcend differences, instead of ignoring them with public politeness and private contempt.... J. B. Phillips (1906-1982), Your God is Too Small [1953]_______________________________________________________________Meditation:Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. -- Romans 15:5-7 (KJV)http://www.cqod.com/

Hi Jimm1. Although this phenomenon in itself is not fruitful, it is for a sign. 2. The person who experiences this, all of a sudden has a very “real” God and he is compelled to seek him out and to talk of him more openly. 3. Some individuals have ministries, which carry this as a sign (not that this is the only sign). 4. Signs verify things for those of little faith, and even them who are mature in Christ are greatly encouraged by a sign. 5. It excites the human condition and motivates discussions and research about, “who this God really is”.I am not wanting to attack anything you have said in this post, but I want to point out that this paragraph is the area of difficulty. I have taken the liberty of dividing your paragraph into 5 separate statements. Speaking from a Biblical point of view the difficulty is that not one of these statements has a Biblical basis. Each statement is a statement of speculative theology. They represent your personal conviction, and you have a right to that as do we all. But ultimately, unless we can find some biblical basis for a discussion, the result is one person who says 'I think this' and another who says 'I think that'. I don't think we are questioning each others integrity here, but just asking 'why do you believe this (or that)?'In one sense any systematising of biblical truth is speculative. It is a kind of 'best fit' hypothesis. Some may not like that phrase but I am not using it in a accusatory way. The Bible makes propositional statements; God is love. This is not speculative theology but good sound 'Biblical Theology'; of course its not nearly so exiciting or likely to cause interesting threads on SI. :-D Our differences are very seldom to do with Biblical Theology.The problem comes when we try to explain, defy or defend something which is not expressly dealt with in the scripture. viz 'being slain in the spirit'. This is the term used to describe a physical phenomenon in which a person is rendered prone. But there is not a single instance of scripture where we can dogmatically say 'this is that'. So we are immediately into speculation.The kind of questions we are asking include.1. Is it truly scriptural?2. Is it contrary to scripture?3. Is it consistent with scripture?Then there another list of questions...1. What kind of persons receive this experience?2. What kind of persons deliver this experience?3. What are the after effects of this experience?4. Ought we to seek this kind of experience?The second lot of questions are heavily influenced by our character, our history, our Christian background and experience. You may have noticed in my posts that I try really hard to use Biblical terms because they have biblical definitions. I try to avoid psychological terms like will, and self, because they have no biblical definition. It can be a helpful discipline to look at extra-biblical phenomena and ask 'what is the biblical term for this?'. When the answer is 'there isn't a biblical term for this' I begin to get uncomfortable.The difference between 'speculative theology' and 'Jake's theology' is only one of degree.

MikeSir, I really enjoyed your quote by J. B. Phillips! I almost feel like opening a new thread for this is where my heart truly is…As for the article I read it and I must say that the writer brought some very good points. If anyone is reading this thread that particular article is well worth a read (it does not feel as long as it looks). It is my opinion however that the article was somewhat unbalanced and that the writer had an obvious bias. It seems as if his article is mainly based in the observations, he has made from mainstream evangelists, some of whom have misrepresented many aspects of the “normal Christian life”.I have to agree with you, that to actively seek out this phenomena is neither biblical nor does it have a display of Godly wisdom. The things he has described, that is, the promoting of this as a “practice” is quite unacceptable. Deeds without a higher purpose are meaningless empty works but still, I would not be quite so quick as to say that this is fake (as the writer of the article alludes). You may not lightly do works in the name of the Lord and get away with it. Apart from that, I hope that the testimonies of the members of this forum mean something (in the mouth of two or three witnesses) It seems that everyone that has written in this thread has more or less the same opinion. We all agree that this does exist but we also agree that overall the practice of the phenomena does not edify anyone and has led many astray. On another note, those who have heard the testimony of Mr. Campbell on one of his sermons (Young Donald Mcphail prays) in the “compilations section” may recall him speaking of another phenomenon. The people on his left hand side had the hands raised toward heaven and the people on his right were all slumped on top of each other in a trans… “in the Spirit”. This is very unusual (although I do not dispute or doubt it for one moment); if one of our modern evangelists reported this what biblical scriptures would he have to his defense? (None) Would it be acceptable? (No) Perhaps we need to reexamine our points of reference. Man can do nothing except it be given him from heaven, especially when he does so in the name of the Lord but still, some have erred in their execution of that which they have been given in good faith. Many shall say in that day Lord, Lord…In ChristJames

RonWell Sir, iron sharpens iron… That was indeed speculative, although I would not term it “theology”; it was just one man’s observations. They can be disputed (I do not like that word) easily by another man’s observations. I just wanted to draw attention to the effect it had on one particular brother whose case we are taking as a study based on the fact that we are undoubtedly short of any bible reference that say anything that is either for or against what we speak of particularly. Anything we say with reference with to scriptures on this subject will have to have a human opinion or allusion to make it valid for this subject. Many phenomena are reported in revivals and none of them are questioned even though they lack biblical basis but we all use our God-given wisdom and judge based on the facts. What I was attempting to do was to present a set of facts so as to separate the incident from its effects. When we observe the effects of incident, we can use our God-given wisdom to judge the truth it. My standpoint too was bias, I neglected the fact that there are those who hold the truth in unrighteousness and the effects of this are altogether different. I think they have been adequately outlined in the article linked to us by Brother Mike. I guess the question that remains is, are we at liberty to exercise any judgment or discernment based purely on our God-given conscious and the Holy Ghost bearing us witness? James

This post has moved rather quickly and I'm on lunch. Hence a quick post.Ron, I agree with your advice earlier in this thread. In fact, it revealed a self-seeking (i.e. selfish) attitude in my own heart when I sought these type of "deeper experiences" with God that I have to repent of.Thank you.

About a month ago I preached at my Church, and had a pretty powerful altar-call. We ended up having altar-service for about 2 hours after the sermon. During this time, one person got saved, several were filled with the Spirit, and about 10 or so were "slain" in the Spirit, some, multiple times. Though I am very much Pentecostal, I am often careful with this slain in the Spirit stuff. Some would say it is not found in the Bible, therefore, it is to be rejected. However, I believe the Scriptures permit "unusual" manifestations to occur, such as the miracles God did through Paul with aprons, or with Peter's shadow. During the altar service I had some personal doubts about the people who were slain, sometimes in apparently goofy looking ways, and was thinking that perhaps people were just being emotional. Most of the slain were amongst the youth. However, over the next week I would see some fruit from the lives of the people who were slain that did not give me any doubt that they had a geniune encounter with God in what occured. For example, one brother reported that while he was slain, that God told him to give up cigarretes. Since then, that brother has not smoked once. A week later one of our teens who never says anything during church stood up to powerfully testify of God's grace towards him. So, is every instance of slain in the Spirit of God? Probably not. Most of it is probably just emotionallism of some sort. However, I have no doubt from what I've seen that sometimes it might be of God. I've never personally experienced it, though I've had some encounters with God that caused me to experience something like it.

Thankyou again, all of you. Today, during lunch a number of brothers at UCLA got together to discuss this event. As I read through these posts, it is like a rerun. Many of the the responses of the brothers there echo the responses here. As for my brother who had the experience, first, he led two people to the Lord this weekend. Secondly, he was preaching at me this morning. The things he had prayed for specifically were: " The Scriptures testify of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Lord, I want to know this baptism." As my friend continued, the things he said reminded me of the conversion experiences one reads about of Wesley. Before, he was powerless, after he was a witness used by God to start the Methodist church. As I began this thread, remember I said I was discipling him. Now he is discipling me. He keeps talking about the simple faith. And I know in my heart, I have not submitted to my Lord 100%. I see a simple man before me with demonstration of power. I have known a thousand Christians in my eight years of walking with God, none like this man. In ChristJeff

Bro PhiologosI have a few questions;I don't think this has any of the characteristics of prostrations recorded at times of revival. There the emphasis was God-consciousness and a sense of overwhelming unworthiness. In the modern phenomena we have convulsions, spasticity and a focus on the event that doesn't sound at all healthy to me.Could it be that the difference in the manifestation of the spirit's arrival is because the spirit is coming to do a different work apart from revival? I acknowledge that some people may focus on the event but really our concern should be what happens with the people AFTER all this? What is it that you find unhealthy? The convulsions themselves or us focusing in on that aspect of things?I have moved in these circles and am not afraid of these events, but I would never seek them. Nor would I visit a place where they are 'likely' to happen. I have also seen the phenomenon used to manipulate crowds and individuals.Of course people use such things to manipulate others and that is not different than people misinterpreting the bible (for example) for their own profit. God knows all and sees all. I did not seek this or ask God for it, He just let it happen. Since then God has shown me much.At the end of the day this is something which one would have to experience for oneself if God wills it. What we should do as brethren in addition to asking questions is to hold one another up in prayer lest we fall into the snares of the enemy.

I must say I am most impressed with how this whole discussion has progressed as it pertains to just everyone being honest about this from their point of view.Still am wondering if there is something maybe different about the approach. Meaning that in the instances here that have been shared are we talking about something 'orchestrated'? In the usual sense of lining people up, the forehead shove and having the catchers in place, etc. Would be curious as to how the events unfolded.That sounds worse than is intended as it applies here, but largely this is what is practiced. The church I once attended even went so far as to have these purple shrouds made up to cover the 'victim's' with. Even in my confusion then it just put a pit in my stomach, what does any of this have to do with the Lord? I thought.I still will err on the side of caution as Ron pointed out, having a Biblical basis is so critical in our day and age especially with so much really bad theology about and people seeking after the wrong things for the wrong reasons, a focus on the event as Ron put it.Yet, yet, I know it seems like I want to keep talking out of both sides of my mouth, it is very difficult to get around Jeff's comments about his friend. But maybe that is really besides the point here, instead of making this either a proof of or a disproof of, a validation or a non-validation ... will let Jeff finish it;As I began this thread, remember I said I was discipling him. Now he is discipling me. He keeps talking about the simple faith. And I know in my heart, I have not submitted to my Lord 100%. I see a simple man before me with demonstration of power. I have known a thousand Christians in my eight years of walking with God, none like this man.

Hi ironmanCould it be that the difference in the manifestation of the spirit's arrival is because the spirit is coming to do a different work apart from revival? I acknowledge that some people may focus on the event but really our concern should be what happens with the people AFTER all this? What is it that you find unhealthy? The convulsions themselves or us focusing in on that aspect of things?It might well be as you say. I would then want to know what it was the Spirit was doing. What is it that I find unhealthy? The presumption that a work of the Spirit with such phenomena is ‘better’ than a work of the Spirit without such phenomena. In other words the ‘sign’ aspect of this. I am really not at all against physical consequences of spiritual experience. I have experienced such things personally. The concern is that the physical phenomena is often reported as a proof of such spiritual experience rather than a consequence. This is my personal objection to the doctrine of tongues as the initial physical sign of Baptism in Spirit; The baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance. Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths I say again, I am all for any physical consequences of The Baptism, but I oppose the view that these consequences provide some kind of proof whereby the authenticity of the experience can be guaranteed.The ‘proof’ of the Baptism is a transformed life, not physical phenomena. Physical phenomena can be counterfeited by human, psychological, physiological, and demonic behaviour. Ah, some will say but their lives were changed that proves the authenticity of the being ‘slain in the Spirit’. No it doesn’t; it proves the authenticity of the spiritual encounter. Let me illustrate; suppose we have two people who respond to the Lord at the same time. One has physical phenomena, the other has none. Both go on to evidence that God has worked powerfully in their lives. It is no more logical to say that the spiritual growth proves the validity of the physical phenomena than it is to say the spiritual growth proves the validity of no physical phenomena. When Oswald Chambers received the Spirit there was no physical phenomena, but his life was transformed. Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence or absence of physical phenomena proves nothing. At this point we need to be honest with ourselves and say ‘am I more impressed by signs than no signs?’Again, let me say it, I am not arguing for ‘no signs’. I am saying we need to think carefully about what we think these signs are showing us. Let me illustrate again; If in seeking the Spirit the seeker becomes agitated, and I’m not saying he should not, he may begin to breath rapidly. This is not a spiritual experience but a natural event. If he breaths rapidly he will begin to hyperventilate. The effects may be varied; he may become dizzy, or experience tingling in his limbs. In extreme cases he may pass out or show signs of rigidity in his limbs. He may have what appear to be enhanced states of consciousness. Now these ‘may’ just be the physical consequences of his rapid breathing. They are no ‘proof’ of anything.The Christian and Missionary Alliance position relating to physical phenomena was classically expressed as ‘forbid not, seek not’. I think there is a simple but profound wisdom in that phrase.

I am really not at all against physical consequences of spiritual experience. I have experienced such things personally. The concern is that the physical phenomena is often reported as a proof of such spiritual experience rather than a consequence. This is my personal objection to the doctrine of tongues as the initial physical sign of Baptism in Spirit; The baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance. Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths I say again, I am all for any physical consequences of The Baptism, but I oppose the view that these consequences provide some kind of proof whereby the authenticity of the experience can be guaranteed.As I see it God does what He pleases as He pleases. Lately I have found that God has done some things that have completely turned upside -down some of the ways in which I thought he worked. When some are baptised with the spirit they speak in tongues and some do not.I agree that physical manifestations are not proof in every instance of a baptism in the Holy Spirit. At the end of the day what is spirit does not profit the flesh anything and the flesh does not understand nor know what the spirit is doing. The spirit is at work constantly and yet we are not always aware of it. The ‘proof’ of the Baptism is a transformed life, not physical phenomena. Physical phenomena can be counterfeited by human, psychological, physiological, and demonic behaviour. Ah, some will say but their lives were changed that proves the authenticity of the being ‘slain in the Spirit’. No it doesn’t; it proves the authenticity of the spiritual encounter. Let me illustrate; suppose we have two people who respond to the Lord at the same time. One has physical phenomena, the other has none. Both go on to evidence that God has worked powerfully in their lives. It is no more logical to say that the spiritual growth proves the validity of the physical phenomena than it is to say the spiritual growth proves the validity of no physical phenomena. When Oswald Chambers received the Spirit there was no physical phenomena, but his life was transformed. Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence of absence of physical phenomena proves nothing. At this point we need to be honest with ourselves and say ‘am I more impressed by signs than no signs?’It is true that people can fake it for whatever reason. We must also always remember that what God does with someone's life may not be what we expect it to be. The individual may not necessarily to big things for all to see but rather some of or much of the work may be in the spiritual realm itself which we can't see of which there may be manifestations that we are not aware of. The Christian and Missionary Alliance position relating to physical phenomena was classically expressed as ‘forbid not, seek not’. I think there is a simple but profound wisdom in that phrase.I think the above makes sense. I think to seek such an experience is a sham in order to appear more righteous than others because we put give more weight to such experiences. God will deal with and use us as He deems fit and we should always remember that.

Am always truly thankful when someone can come along and unravel my own ramblings, I picked up a line from Chip Brodgren the other day about 'developing a vocabulary' in spiritual things, guess often what everyone sees here is a child's attempt at learning how to write and it often gets sloppy.The night I finally 'gave in'? if I could put it that way...more sloppiness coming....In all honesty it was a crying out in and from the depths of my debauchory.."Lord, where did I go" a lyric that's playing in my head and at the same time unwilling to let go.."Yes, Lord I want to give up my life to you', "No, I don't want to give up my sin"...I wanted both and to be delivered at the same time...Yes/No, Yes/No, Yes/No.. Lying on my bed with tears pouring down I "felt" this warmth course through my veins that filled me with a peace that is undescribable...and I was still saying 'No...Yes'...Stranger still, that was not the first time, can still recall two or three other times maybe a year before where the same thing happened. The difference there was I flatly refused, 'No, I cannot' "become a Christian" a real Christian, "I am not ready yet"... It was just as real and beautiful an 'experience', but I was not willing to give up my sin... am reminded of "Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'" Meaning that all the proof in the world, an experience, an 'event', doesn't necessarily translate into a transformed life.Sadly we will all know of individuals who have experienced dramatic physical phenomena whose lives have sunk without trace. What does this prove? Nothing. Presence of absence of physical phenomena proves nothing. Again, thanks Ron for better spelling out what I wanted to express. And that is for the whole of what you wrote here, not just the excerpts.

"Slain in the Spirit" is not found in the New TestamentOne of the Fruits of the Spirit is SELFCONTROL - which is quite contrary to falling down, trances and paralisys.Remember when Jesus said to His disciples "you know not what spirit you are of"There are alot of spirits out there that are not the Holy Spirit, you need to be careful who you allow to layhands on you.You cannot follow a man because he has a big shiny successful looking ministry.If you have not read thru the New Testament yourself (putting aside all denominational filters) and let the Holy Spirit to teach you all things that are true and not a lie (1 John 2:26-27) and obey everything that it says (which is how we recieve the Holy Spirit Acts 5:32), then you are only basing your salvation on what a man has taught you and have no assurance of salvation but recieved a lie that will have you standing before Jesus on last day saying Lord Lord we prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name and preformed many miracles in Your name and He will say to you 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7:21-23Repent (surrender your will and take up Gods will), Get ROOTED in the New Testament (Read the New Testament at least 7 times), Obey everything it says. You are not doing this for your own benefit but to serve the "Author of Life" because He is worthy to recieve the rewards of His sufferings.Mark 8:34-38 34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37"For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Love in Christ

"Slain in the Spirit" is not found in the New TestamentOne of the Fruits of the Spirit is SELFCONTROL - which is quite contrary to falling down, trances and paralisys.Remember when Jesus said to His disciples "you know not what spirit you are of"There are alot of spirits out there that are not the Holy Spirit, you need to be careful who you allow to layhands on you.Self-control in what sense? behavior? Didn't John eneter a trans-like state when he was shown the various visions he saw described in the revelation? I have experienced this and I'm learning that the workings of God are FAR more complicated than I ever imagined. He can do as He pleases whether we agree with it or not. In my experience when the spirit communicates with God and depending on the type of communications compells the body to do certain things. If the spirit is grieving with God my body does bow over and a groanings and sounds of weeping come from my mouth so that I am aware on some level of what is going on. If the spirit is rejoicing then my body position changes and so do the sounds that come with that. The spirit is not something we can control for it's works are far more wondrous than we can ever imagine, rather we should let it control us.

One of the men my friend led to the Lord this past week has liver cancer. This cancer had progressed to the point where this man had begun taking morphine to relieve the pain. Last Sunday this man sought the Lord and the church prayed for a healing. The testimony is this thus far. The man stopped taking morphine that day. There is no pain. For two days this man was extremely tired and lifeless. By Wednesday he began to gain strength. The effects of the morphine which is an addictive drug began to subside. The church is continuing in prayer and fasting for this man. My friend believes that God will heal this man, and together they will testify of the good news to the people in the streets of Little Siagon in Southern California. As this story continues, it reminds me of the book I just read about another faithful man, Brother Yun. Is there a coincidence? Or is God testifying of Himself, not only to those in China, but here in Little Siagon. We shall see in the times to come.In ChristJeff

My friend just gave me a dvd that records his experience. I have not had time to review it yet. Secondly, my friend shared his testimony in a Vietnamese Baptist Church in San Diego this past weekend. The congregation asked him to come back to speak again. Afterwards, the pastor pointed out to my friend that he needs to join the real church. The pastor sighted 1 Corinthian 13:8 as the proof that the sign gifts are not for today's church. So far, the brother with liver cancer has not had anymore pain. The church continues to fast and pray for his healing.In ChristJeff

1Ki 8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.Jhn 18:5-7 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Here a few instances in the Bible when men could not stand because of the presence of the Lord. I agree with some of the replys i have read that there is alot of false manifestations going on.. people pushing others just to look like they are "falling out" or something. When I was converted and turned to the Lord it was during a "gospel singing" those of you from southern US know what im talking about :) . In the middle of the concert the lead singer of the group pointed at me and not knowing my name or ever having seen me before said "God is working on you today". I was in utter shock that this man pointed me out and i had no idea why he would do this. They went on to the next song and the song was called "That's God". During that song the conviction came so heavy on me I was crying so hard I was shaking uncontrolably. I could not even move at all my parents asked me if I wanted to go to the alter. I dont think i even really responded... I really dont remember. But they had to carry me, i couldnt even walk. The night before I partied alot and was selling dope at the time. I was deleivered from that that day and got rid of all that i had after church. Not that having a manifestation means anything more when someone gets saved but that is what happened to me. I hope this helps.

To accept experiences over God's Word is dangerous. When we start letting our emotions and feelings dictate what we believe to be truth and never analyze the information in light of scripture we allow ourselves to be "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine." Ephesians 4:14To suggest that men can go around with the "annointing" freely dispensing God's power through their "laying on of hands", "breathing on people" or my favorite "swirling a coat in the air" towards a crowd, is ridiculous, and unbiblical. To suggest that being "slain in the spirit" is a common occurence in today's churches because of three scriptures is not reasonable (I Kings 8:11, John 18 and I Chronicles 5:14). Men falling to the ground before Jesus are only natural responses of fearful men to divine power. When God's manifestation and glory filled the newly built temple by Solomon, it was a celebration of the ark, the holy dwelling place of God, being placed in its rightful place. Surely God would be pleased to show himself to his people. This does not prove that being slain in the spirit at most charismatic churches is biblical. A genuine Christian revival brings about a profound sense of the awesome holiness of God and a convicting awareness of our own sin (Isaiah 6:5, Luke 5:8). It brings about a desire to obey Jesus, and the apostle's he appointed, through the scriptures and please the Father through our every deed (Acts 2:41-47. In contrast we find that revivals where being "slain in the spirit" among other unbiblical acts (speaking in tongues, barking, laughing, levitating, etc.) take place, the desires are usually focused on chasing men who possess the "anointing" from church to church or even state to state to "feel" the power again and again. The focus is taken away from the Lord and experience takes precedent over God's Word. God will never contradict his Word, nor will he add any new “revelations” to it. It is perfect, complete and instructs us “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a worker that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” II Timothy 2:15PreachParsly wrote:1Ki 8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.Jhn 18:5-7 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Here a few instances in the Bible when men could not stand because of the presence of the Lord. I agree with some of the replys i have read that there is alot of false manifestations going on.. people pushing others just to look like they are "falling out" or something. When I was converted and turned to the Lord it was during a "gospel singing" those of you from southern US know what im talking about :) . In the middle of the concert the lead singer of the group pointed at me and not knowing my name or ever having seen me before said "God is working on you today". I was in utter shock that this man pointed me out and i had no idea why he would do this. They went on to the next song and the song was called "That's God". During that song the conviction came so heavy on me I was crying so hard I was shaking uncontrolably. I could not even move at all my parents asked me if I wanted to go to the alter. I dont think i even really responded... I really dont remember. But they had to carry me, i couldnt even walk. The night before I partied alot and was selling dope at the time. I was deleivered from that that day and got rid of all that i had after church. Not that having a manifestation means anything more when someone gets saved but that is what happened to me. I hope this helps.

Men falling to the ground before Jesus are only natural responses of fearful men to divine power. You know, this is a really long thread on a hot topic. And I've deliberately avoided it, because I have been into it with people over this topic before. But somehow, I got sucked into it this morning and began to read. I must admit I haven't read the whole thread, don't have time, but I did go back and read enough to try and find the original point. The argument seems to be whether or not being "slain in the spirit" is a real manifestation of God at work in a person. In other words, were the people actually incapable of moving because they were afraid or does the presence of God sometimes produce a sort of paralasis, if you will? First of all, let me say I agree with Ron that there is alot of counterfeit and mixture. I think we see that always with the supernatural gifts. But...because there is so much faking going on, we cannot discount the real. I have been to services where people were laid out, as they say, "like cordwood", and I was still standing feeling absolutely nothing. I've been shoved to the ground by so-called ministers. I have also had 3 different experiences that I know were real and it wasn't my "fearful response to divine power". I didn't feel afraid at all. All I know is, I, like Phebe, was standing one minute and on the floor the next. On two of those three occasions, I was unable to get up for about 45 minutes even though I tried to get up. I was crying and experiencing this amazing feeling that God was doing something in my heart that I wanted him to do and had waited on for a long time. I promise you, if it ever happens to you, no one can ever tell you it wasn't something supernatural from God. It isn't natural, it's supernatural.Josh, your testimony touched me. The fact that your parents carried you to the altar...that's something that no one can ever tell you wasn't real. When we have had a personal encounter with God, whether we experience some supernatural manifestation or not, you can never forget it. Moses encountered God in a bush that was burning but wasn't being consumed. There wasn't a scripture to "back that up". Tell him he isn't practicing good theology. Love, Dian.

Hi MD4Christ, (speaking in tongues, barking, laughing, levitating, etc.)I was pretty much in agreement with your post although I think placing speaking in tongues in this list is a serious error. In other posts it has been discovered that 60% of New Testament examples of being filled with the Spirit are accompanied by glossolalia (speaking in tongues). Never is barking, laughing, levitating, etc. mentioned. To place tongues in that category is to place Paul, Peter, the Apostles, in question. Paul said he spoke with tongues more than everyone. He prayed with the Spirit and with the understanding also. He sang with the Spirit and with the understanding also. He told the church clearly not to forbid folk to speak with tongues. Prophecy is better in a group setting. Tongues in personal prayer or that is accompanied by a legitimate interpretation is a God created expression of New Testament Christianity. Man did not create tongues. The devil may have perverted it, but he has done that with almost all things. If we toss out everything he has subverted what would be left? Moreover if he wants to extract something from the church he taints it with his influence and the church throws it overboard. We must use discernment to identify the genuine, prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. I am very anti-emotionalism also. We agree there. I just don't agree that tongues fits in the afore mentioned list. God Bless,-Robert

I watched the video of my friends experience that I have shared. The pastor testified that God had put my friends face in his mind the night before. The pastor called my friend and his wife up and prayed over them. The pastor prayed that God would use this couple mightily. He prophesied that my friends wife will be one in ministry with my friend. Then the pastor went back to the pulpit and began to speak. That is where my friend fell down. In terms of the ongoing prayer and fasting for the new believer with liver cancer the church continues to intercede. The man has not taken morphine for two weeks and is now driving a car. He testified before the church last Sunday and praise God. His mother confessed Christ this last week because of the son's testimony. In ChristJeff

MD4Christ wrote:God will never contradict his Word, nor will he add any new “revelations” to it. It is perfect, complete and instructs us Rev. 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” Often times we repeat what someone else has taught. Would you consider that these two witnessess who prophesy will reveal more of God's will to those who are alive to hear them?In ChristJeff

MD4Christ wrote;In contrast we find that revivals where being "slain in the spirit" among other unbiblical acts (speaking in tongues, barking, laughing, levitating, etc.) take place, the desires are usually focused on chasing men who possess the "anointing" from church to church or even state to state to "feel" the power again and again. In the video that I watched there was a sense of what you described here. There is a hint of "chasing men who possess the "anointing" from church to church or even state to state to "feel" the power again and again." However, this also exists outside of the charismatic realm. I have attended tent revivals held by a conservative mennonite fellowship. Men of that denomination also travel from state to state sharing their testimonies. Under these circumstances, the nature of the meetings are definitely different than the video that I have watched. We here at SI also expound upon the likes of Tozer, Wilkerson, and Ravenhill. It seems it is very easy to fall into the trap of seeking men instead of seeking God. God has repeatedly taught me not to dwell too long on the thoughts of men but to seek Him. The most perfect way will be when we realize that we are in a lonely place, where only Jesus is before us.In ChristJeff

Brother Gregg wrote: I don't think anyone has adquately shown from the scriptures that this phenomenon is biblical. I truly believe its not found in the bible.True enough Br. Gregg. Chuck Smith teaches this also. And indeed this is sound reasoning. And Brother Ron has also sought not to get into speculative theology which this thread is immerced in. Yet, I am not convinced by this reasoning. Many will say that because they cannot find evidence of this phenomenon in Scripture, therefore this particular manifestation cannot be of God. Well then, if not of God, then it must be of Satan. Now for those who have testified of this experience in this thread, are they under the domain of Satan? Does Scripture teach that Satan has the power to knock down one of God's children?Scripture teaches us that God spoke to Balaam through a donkey. Scripture teaches us that God spoke to Moses in a burning bush. Scripture teaches us that God used a large fish to teach Jonah a lesson. What then can be said for these Scriptures and what can one conclude from the examples that are given to us in Scripture?Let me say that I am not supporting one side or the other. I am watching for the evidence. In ChristJeff

Hi Krispy,Thank you for your post. Just wanted to caution you about the use of the very general term "Charismatic Movement". I am always a bit foggy about what exactly the "Charismatic Movement" was. At any rate, some people say "charismatic" when they mean "spirit-filled", or "I believe God still works miracles today". This is also true of the word "pentecostal". They do not necessarily refer to legalistic weirdos or name-it-claim-its or to people who fall down and roll around. My great-grandfather and grandfather were both "pentecostal" preachers--both very doctrinally correct and both completely sold out to Christ.I have a family memeber that says she has "renounced the charismatic movement", just as you have said (not that I ever thought she was in it--whatever it is--in the first place). By this she means that she no longer believes that God heals today, that we can walk in the Spirit, or that God is working in our lives in a personal way. I hope you did not mean this?

In the Revival Hymn, I believe Ian Paisley and Ravenhill testify of many being knocked out and lying prostrate on the ground during the times of Wesley and also the Welch revival. Wasn't it testified somewhere in one of these sermon's that the police would check to see if the man lying prostrate in the street was drunk with alcohol or of the Spirit that was poured out during the Welch revival.In ChristJeff

As far as extra-biblical experiences, I do not believe they are of God. I dont see slaying in the Spirit in scripture... or barking like dogs... or laughing on the floor. (Intersting that one fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL.)ok I have asked this question before, what does it mean to say one of the gifts of the spirit is self control? is this in a behavioral sense or is it in controlling the spirit itself? can someone shed some insight onto this?

BrethrenI have been reading some of the posts and have put some of my own concerning this topic. One of my posts was a brief testimony of my experiences as far as being slain in the spirit. Since it happened the last time I have seen God increase in me as never before. I have also discovered that I was mistaken and we all are mistaken concerning the workings of God. We like to say God can only do this or that in this way but the truth is that God DOES AS HE PLEASES. I have been humbled by Him and He has shown me that I really know nothing about how He operates because it is beyond the scope of my comprehension. Instead God simply wants me to do one thing, submit to His will. In this submission dear brethren we need not scratch our heads and try to figure out what God wants us to do or what He means. The bible says we are to become like little children does it not. Have you ever noticed that children are not at all concerned about the ins and outs of how the world works? All they do is play and eat etc. A mark of "growing up" is understanding how things work and being able to think for oneself and this is the way of the world and God does not fit here that's why we have to go back to becoming as children again. We need to stop questioning God and just submit to his will. We sometimes get so caught up in the details of what this saying means and so on and so forth we lose sight of the REAL DEAL, what God wants us to according to His will. One post mentioned that tongues or laughing etc in the spirit were unbiblical (don't quote me on that but it was something to that effect) my experience is that the spirit also feels grief and cries at certain times, and laughs for joy in others, is sometimes angry and these are all emotions that God feels concerning us as well, let us not lose sight of that. Now that may not be mentioned in the bible but that does not mean it is fake necessarily. Of course I am not saying that it is all true because there are some fakers out there. Consider this, the apostles did not write down EVERY single dealing or word that God spoke to them, only what they were instructed by God to complete the canon of the bible so that it would be perfect for it's purpose which it is. I submit to you all that the mind can not remember all these things but the spirit certainly does which is why we are to walk in the spirit always so we can ALWAYS exercise the things that GOd has shown to us in the spirit because the flesh can't profit from these things. You will ask "how come some things were left out?" and the truth of this is two-fold:1)God does as He pleases whether we agree with it or not, can you or I go to heaven and say to God "I think you need to do this here and undo that and do this instead"? Of course not!2)We do not know how God operates despite what we have experienced because experience a+ experience b may equal revelation c or d or y of whatever according to God's will. We like to think we know a lot but in truth we know NOTHING! That is a very sobering thought isn't it? That after all these years of doing this and that we know nothing because half or more of the time we have done what WE wanted to do rather than what God commands us to do. I thought I knew a good deal about how God works but this weekend I was humbled and I quickly let that thought go away from me. He told me that submission was the key and I had to go back to being as a child, and we all do.But we also need to know that the word of God is not limited to the bible, it also consists of other instructions given to individuals or groups for specific instances, this is when one hears that still small voice that speaks to your individual situation. This also means that whatever God says to me or to you can not contradict what is in the bible either.\\God does not want us to try and comprehend Him with our minds because we can't, GOd is spirit and that is where we need to meet Him. He simply asks that we submit (without question or reservation or any other foolishness for that matter) to His will, no strings, no isms or ologies just COMPLETE SUBMISSION.

FaraiBut we also need to know that the word of God is not limited to the bible, it also consists of other instructions given to individuals or groups for specific instances, this is when one hears that still small voice that speaks to your individual situation. This also means that whatever God says to me or to you can not contradict what is in the bible either.\\God does not want us to try and comprehend Him with our minds because we can't, GOd is spirit and that is where we need to meet Him. He simply asks that we submit (without question or reservation or any other foolishness for that matter) to His will, no strings, no isms or ologies just COMPLETE SUBMISSION.Amen!1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.2 Timothy2: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.Acts6:7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.Acts12:24But the word of God grew and multiplied.Acts19:20So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.Ephesians6:17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:Hebrew12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Hebrews11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.1Peter1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1John2:14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.Your Brother in Christ James

I have read the entire thread that was recommended. The thought that I came away with is this. God works to create a theology within each of us. To know He is real is the beginning. Not by reading words and believeing what the words describe, but actually experiencing the demonstration of the power of the word in one's life. Now the manifestation of the power of God's word is a work that encompasses both the mind and the heart. One can search the Scriptures diligently and yet not have salvation. One can have passion and zeal yet not have salvation. God works on both the mind and the heart. Think about what renews the mind. Think about what softens the heart. God is the only One who can give the "increase." Man can only sow and water from that which he believes he understands. Paul could not define the love that he had for Jesus in a way that another would understand. Paul always prayed for the believer that they too would understand the love that comes from Christ.So in this thread, I see some posts that pretain to the mind and some to the heart, and a few that have both mind and heart. It seems to me that the power of God will bring glory to His name. How He chooses to demonstrate His power to those who believe is His to dispense. Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.God reveals His hidden ways to the babes who accept in simple child like faith. The wise and prudent seem to miss the mark. In ChristJeff

God works to create a theology within each of us. To know He is real is the beginning. Not by reading words and believeing what the words describe, but actually experiencing the demonstration of the power of the word in one's life. Now the manifestation of the power of God's word is a work that encompasses both the mind and the heart. One can search the Scriptures diligently and yet not have salvation. One can have passion and zeal yet not have salvation. God works on both the mind and the heart. Think about what renews the mind. Think about what softens the heart. God is the only One who can give the "increase." Man can only sow and water from that which he believes he understands. Paul could not define the love that he had for Jesus in a way that another would understand. Paul always prayed for the believer that they too would understand the love that comes from Christ.Amen brother Jeff!Dr Tozer had a good sermon on faith which began thus:“ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.Now, we’ll stop there because he plunges on to illustrate what he has to say by Able and the rest of them. This is the faith chapter of the bible and here faith is demonstrated. Its (faith) deeds are recorded yet there is no definition of faith given here nor is there a definition of faith given anywhere in the scriptures. Let us remember when it says, “now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen it is not giving us a definition. Just as when it said, “God is love” it is not giving us a definition of God nor a definition of love. There are very few definitions in the bible, the reason being that definitions have to do with philosophy and reason, whereas the bible is not a book of philosophy and reason but a spiritual book directed to the heart. It (the bible) is a book of morals and it is not a book of ethics. Ethics is another word for righteousness or morals and the “ethical book” reasons concerning good and bad. The bible is not a book of reason about good or bad the bibl is an authoritative book telling us what is good and what is bad. We need no textbook on ethics when we come to the word of God, God has written the only textbook there is that is valid and binding upon all men. So there is no definition of love given, there is no definition of righteousness, there are very few if any definitions given in the scriptures, and there is none of faith here. Faith is demonstrated not defined and I should like to point out to you that this is God’s ideal for His Church. Not that love should be defined from the pulpit, but that it should be demonstrated in the pews. Not that faith should be defined in the pulpit but that it should be practiced by people in the pews as well as by the man in the pulpit” James

God reveals His hidden ways to the babes who accept in simple child like faith. The wise and prudent seem to miss the mark. the defense rests on that note...

The church continues to pray for the new brother's healing from liver cancer. He continues to grow stronger. My friend who had the Spiritual experience has an unquenchable thrist for God's word. In ChristJeff

rookieGod bless your brother

My friend and I shared our hearts yesterday. I told him that God is always in my thoughts. When I wake He is there, when I work He is there, when I sleep, He sometimes wakes me up. My brother David began to cry and said it is the same for him since he was "slayed in the Spirit." He had prayed that God would show him what it means to be baptised in the Spirit. Since then God is in his thoughts as He is in mine. This is just a testimony of what I experienced yesterday. My brother and I had a wonderful time in the name of Jesus.In ChristJeff

My brother David shared what he did this last Saturday. His uncle who is the senior pastor of the local Vietnamese church, one other brother, and himself spent the day visiting 6 families that are part of the congregation. In the Vietnamese culture it is not uncommon to go visit someone without calling first. His uncle, the pastor had not done visitations in a long time. David was the one who suggested the renewed ministry of discipling. David spoke of the blessings that came from this time of loving those in the congregation. Does anyone have a similiar ministry in their congregation? In ChristJeff

My brother David, and his Pastor Twan visited the brother who so far seems to be healed of liver cancer. That new brother's name is Twan also. Brother David and Pastor Twan disciple new brother Twan every Tuesday night. New brother Twan's mother has also called on the name of the Lord. She is 72 years old and can't see well enough to read from the Vietnamese Bibles that they currently have. The print is too small. As Pastor Twan began the discipling time, he began to pray that God would give the mother the ability to read from the Vietnamese Bible. He gave her a Scripture to read, and she started slowly to read. As time went on, she began to read not only the verse but the entire section of Scripture that the verse was contained in. Brother David testified that as Pastor Twan began to praise the Lord, the mother passion to read Scripture continued to grow. She was filled with the blessings that come from God. Brother David's walk is consuming him. In ChristJeff

Just an update,The brother with liver cancer died yesterday. He remained faithful to the end. God did not heal him of cancer. But this is the testimony, God took away the pain of this brothers' ordeal with cancer. When he first submitted his life to the Lord he stopped taking morphine for the pain. The pain never returned. This man's mother is growing strong in the Lord and my brother Hua's passion for the Lord grows each day.In Christjeff