I am shocked and need to share it now...

I spoke to some sisters who are still attending the church I one attended myself 6 years ago.
It is an evangelical, Pentecost kind of church.. All my friends are still going to this church.
And this morning they where telling me about Sumba dancing in church.
And they where all planning to go there. I was totally speechless.
Not only one evening…you can make your choice….it is possible to dance four evenings.
O Lord. Before I spoke to my friends this morning I was crying about the “worldly-state” I see so many dear brothers and sisters in these last day’s. The day’s so close before the coming of Jesus.
There is no longing for prayer and the preachers who are bringing the true words of God are banned out now.
It is the fasted growing church in my town and perhaps in the country. The pastor is young and very popular.
I am totally shocked about this dancing. I needed to share it with somebody. That’s why I am post it now.
O my dear brothers and sisters, stay close to the Word, watch and pray.

With tears,
browny

Dear Browny

You highlight a spiritual truth that has been heavily burdening my spirit. The worldly- state of Christianity today is so painful to watch and my spirit is grieved by it all we can do is pray pray pray pray and pray some more. Let's pray without ceasing and God is faithful and just to keep his true bride pure and Christ will present her faultless with exceeding great joy one day

Love in Christ

hi, if you sub the word arobic exercise instead of dance would it make you feel more comfortable . i forgot that commandment about dancing.

"hi, if you sub the word arobic exercise instead of dance would it make you feel more comfortable . i forgot that commandment about dancing."

No - it doesn't make more comfortable - 99% of it is sensual, and not clothed.....somehow I don't think David dancing in the Bible was sensual and unclothed - doesn't fit with a HOLY GOD....

I am so sorry, Browny! Many of us feel very alone...

Hey Browny-

Just a point of clarification for me.

Are you sure it is "sumba" dancing? There is very little to be found on "sumba" dancing. Although the little I could find showed it to be basically a "ballroom dancing" with Brazilian or South American flavors. We had another thread dissecting that pretty completely recently so I will not comment on it further. I have never watched it, but I suppose the rise in popularity of the "Dancing With The Stars" shows could have created an avenue of interest that a church opened up to. However, from all I can see it is basically ballroom dancing with a Latin flair. Is this what they were going to?

Another thought came to me. Is this actually "Zumba Dancing" rather than "Sumba Dancing"? I know several ladies who use the "Zumba" dancing. It is basically an intense aerobic workout. Rather than jogging, running on a tread mill, or riding a stationary bike they do an an intense aerobic workout in the form of high calorie burning "dances in place",,, more or less. But it is basically a fitness workout at the end of the day. Is it possible that the thing they referred to was "Zumba Dancing" and they are simply meeting some other ladies for a workout time? I know some churches have multi purpose rooms (gyms, fellowship halls, etc.) that groups of ladies will use as a "safe place" for them to work out together 2 or 3 nights a week. They don't want to go to a public gym where there are guys there ogleing (sp?) them constantly with their eyes... so they meet together as a group for an aerobic workout in the multi purpose room, often with a time of fellowship and/or a devotional facilitated by one of the ladies. Is it possible this is what they were referring to, the "Zumba Dance Fitness" program?

Oh yeah..one last question...were these times for females only or were they coed?

Just asking for a little clarification.... not exactly sure what they meant at this point.

Thanks Browny!

Blessings.

YOU ARE RIGHT IT IS Zumba Dancing and it is coed.
And, at least for my friends, it is __not__ to feel more comfortable. They don't have a problem with this...
Sorry if my writing is not correct...I am to upset to find the right words in Englisch at the moment.
You see, I see my friends getting more and more attending the world. And it makes me so sad to see this...
Thank you for your repley Solomon101

Bless you,
Agnes

hi, it is not my job to be a judge of anyone else in the church. itis my job to be the best me in the church and be a witness as i live out my life. obesity is the main physical problem in this country and a church that provides a high intensity aerobic exercise program to help seems to be a good way to make those who succeed in getting in shape with their testimony.jimp there is nothing sensual about zumba.it is fast and and increasingly difficult.

Still I think it would be a better way of exercise to go on your knees and pray, standing up and raise your hands in worship...And I am not judging,,,I am only so sad to see many people attending this and almost nobody showing up for a time of prayer....no time...no energy for praying.

Shalom jimp

browny

Dear Browny

I can totally sympathise with you, it’s very sad and grievous. Much prayer is needed.

Blessings to you

I do not wish to excite debate....I am not judging....it is for the Holy Spirit to convict and guide everyone who belongs to Him....I just have to say that I have never seen aerobics done in loose-flowing/non-form-fitting garments....seems to me it would be next to impossible....I am certainly not against exercise. But if this is done in a coed setting, I would think a boundary has been crossed that certainly can be sensual and potentially arousing lust and potentially causing brothers to stumble. How could you call this worship?

mama27...I do not wish to excite debate....I am not judging....it is for the Holy Spirit to convict and guide everyone who belongs to Him....I just have to say that I have never seen aerobics done in loose-flowing/non-form-fitting garments....seems to me it would be next to impossible....I am certainly not against exercise. But if this is done in a coed setting, I would think a boundary has been crossed that certainly can be sensual and potentially arousing lust and potentially causing brothers to stumble. How could you call this worship?

Mama, I am not going to get into any debates here, I just don't feel led to, but your Wisdom just astonishes me.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

RUN! You said it yourself, don't waste your time. You love God and are pricked in your conscience about that. This is a real prompting of the the Holy Spirit, not legalistic narrowmindedness. Do not marvel when the majority has no issue with that and think you are an oddball.
Countless saints go through the same experience, many here on SI can share similar experiences. I myself left churches, sometimes right in the middle of a service.

MrBillPro,

I am sorry, I cannot tell if you are being serious or facetious...I never get joking within my own family either. Can you tell me which it is?

dear narrowpath, i understand that you are so holy and intolerant to leave a church in the middle of a service but tell me about the many that you have led to the Master as a testimony not your inability to see that help is needed in a fellowship and being there and suuplying strength and council.. this is a matter of offering an exercise program in evenings when the church is not together.if you do not have lust on sunday morning when people are in their sunday finest and best make up,how are you going to be reved up with someone in a sweat suit and no make up and full of sweat.either attend or do not .it isn't a big deal.

"i understand that you are so holy and intolerant to leave a church in the middle of a service but tell me about the many that you have led to the Master as a testimony not your inability to see that help is needed in a fellowship"

Jimp, With all respect, I think this type of comment and response to narrowpath is what breaks down the Spirit of the Lord being able to work in and through this forum. Is it not surely possible that someone IS led by the HOLY SPIRIT to leave a service? How can we who were not there possibly judge that...

Sweaty sweatsuits are not what anyone is talking about....skimpy leotards is what we are talking about among mixed genders. And we are not talking about an exercise class, Browny was talking about what was going on in worship, unless I misunderstood. Surely there is great cause for lust in people's Sunday finest - that is a discussion perhaps for another thread...

by mama27...MrBillPro,I am sorry, I cannot tell if you are being serious or facetious...I never get joking within my own family either. Can you tell me which it is?

O! 101% totally serious!

Let everyones emotions cool a bit. I do want to try and clarify some though.

1. It seems no one has a problem with people exercising and getting into better shape or maintaining it if they are. Correct?

2. No one has a problem with people doing intense aerobic workouts to better increase their health and care for the body God gave them. Correct?

3. I would think no one has a problem with people using a church owned multi purpose room/gymnasium as a place for their members/friends to do that. We are talking about a gymnasium after all.... or large room set aside for such events NOT the sanctuary. Correct?

4. The lone issue seems to be the idea of mixing the males/females with the increased potential of creating ways that guys would certainly have to deal with lust. Correct?

5. It would seem a good idea to have exercise facilities that will allow females to work out with their friends who are also females. This keeps them from going to a gym where other men may be undressing them mentally the entire time they are there. I would want the females in my family to have access to a place they could get a good workout without having to be bothered by the roaming eyes of other guys that might happen to be at a public gym. Correct?

6. As a red blooded American guy myself...it seems ridiculous to say that a room full of leotard clad ladies gyrating, dancing, and moving might not possibly be a temptation. It seems to me anyone who denies that is either naive, untruthful, running low on testosterone, or perhaps wanting to go and check it out themselves as they might not have that area under control. I believe I do have that area under control... but playing with fire will eventually burn you. Correct?

7. If this church... or any fellowship for that matter... will make it females only then wouldn't that solve the problem? There is much good to come from an exercise program... but if it causes spiritual damage then it is a negative overall. It seems to me to be a simple fix. Make it female only. I would also say that I know several females using the Zumba Dance fitness program....but not any guys. Are you sure it is coed? Do you know it for a fact or did you just suspect it? I find it hard to believe a decent church is this unaware. Few men are willing to do this. That is why I wonder if guys are really there.

8. THIS IS KEY- Browny, have you, or any one else, spoken to the church leadership about the issue? Has anyone actually gone to them and discussed their concerns over this being a coed (male and female) group? If not then it is absolutely wrong to be raking them over the coals for it. They may have no idea it is a mixed group... and in fact it may not even be a mixed group... that is hear say so far.

Very, very, very often in tissues like this we should not be posting it or telling others. In fact we may not even need to pray a great deal. We may just simply need to go to the leadership and find out what is happening. Go talk TO them before talking ABOUT them is always good advice.

If it is a coed group then the fix seems easy enough. If the leadership rejects the wisdom of making it females only then that of course does bring it to the level of taking others with a person to share their concerns.

Blessings!

Hey I think I know what church it is. It was my church also. I love that church. But I decided to leave when they did the thriller song that sunday morning.is it the church in Gainesville ga.

This gets us into some territory that is better left for personal conviction.

If we start to regulate movement, specifically keeping in shape movement, where does it end?

Being a man, I do not think that doing Zumba at church or in a co-ed setting is appropriate. This is my personal opinion. But to say that a women or man should only work out in the privacy of their own dwelling, away from children, windows, sun... is silly.

The hard part about this is that some moves that are made while working out, can be "sexual" in nature. does this make the moves bad? No. It is the sin in us that makes it bad, not the move itself.

Example. In the health club that I have attended, there is a leg machine that works the inner leg muscle, located on the inside of both legs. The only way to work this muscle, is to open and close your legs exerting force to this muscle.

Does this mean that no one should use this machine since it has a possible sexual motion to it when using the machine?

I guess the bottom line is that if you are convicted by this, and have approached the leadership about the issue without resolve, it is better that you follow the convictions from the Lord and move on, or stay put as you are lead.

Please moderators will you close this and stop this discussion?

browny

hi, i would not have co-ed aerobic exercise including zumba. this was added later in the blog. all of the zumba classes in my area are for ladies only.i also sould not be turned on by being there. if you are Christ centered and your deep desires are to obey and please Jesus then you can go about anywhere with out having battles with the flesh but if you have these battles avoid these areas but most of all mortify your members and become more Christ centered. some folks can go and others can not.i know of a couple that fell in love at a church picnic but that doesn't mean picnicking is immoral.

Browny,

God bless you. It warms my heart to hear of others who have convictions and are willing to act on them. God bless you...

ginnyrose

"jimp said, dear narrowpath, i understand that you are so holy and intolerant to leave a church in the middle of a service but..."

I haven't been following this thread while it was going but I appreciate the comments shared.

Also, just a note to jimp ... in all kindness I just wonder if you had not just said a few posts before this one, that it is not your place to judge others in the Church (family of Christ)?

- - -

May we be found faithful to the end for "straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it."

God bless you, Sister (Browny). May we keep praying so that day may not overtake us by surprise. And also that others may awake before it's too late!

Browny, I have not read the other posts but thought you might like two statements of Leonard Ravenhill taken from Letters he wrote to my mother.

"So Barbara Mandrell, the singer of lusty ballads and last years entertainer of the year, is going to sing at the opening of Oral Roberts “City of Faith” Maybe some zealous soul will yet invent ‘sanctified’ Bingo?"

"A popular Baptist Church not too far from us started with Christian Drama, it is “so expressive and reaches the young people.” It is now doing Fiddler on the Roof and other junk. These are all signs to the world that we have lost our anointing and will use their tools to try to do what is of the Kingdom. In other words we began in the Spirit and now try to finish off in the flesh."

But Browny... Do not fear ... and in all thing give thanks. He is in control and
at work. He is preparing His Bride and she will be beautiful! Press On!

Browny, I have not read the other posts but thought you might like two statements of Leonard Ravenhill taken from Letters he wrote to my mother.

"So Barbara Mandrell, the singer of lusty ballads and last years entertainer of the year, is going to sing at the opening of Oral Roberts “City of Faith” Maybe some zealous soul will yet invent ‘sanctified’ Bingo?"

"A popular Baptist Church not too far from us started with Christian Drama, it is “so expressive and reaches the young people.” It is now doing Fiddler on the Roof and other junk. These are all signs to the world that we have lost our anointing and will use their tools to try to do what is of the Kingdom. In other words we began in the Spirit and now try to finish off in the flesh."

But Browny... Do not fear ... and in all thing give thanks. He is in control and
at work. He is preparing His Bride and she will be beautiful! Press On!

I find it hard to believe that some of you turned this into a debate over whether Zumba is dancing or not and whether it is ok if genders are mixed. The issue is really why the church is turning into a worldly entertainment centre while people are going to hell left and right. It is a reason to grieve indeed! Thank you for posting this, Brownie, it must be brought up and your tears are shared by many.

If a Christian wants to do Zumba it is between her and God and she can join a fitness club if she wants to, but what business does the church have to make provisions for that? No, not even in their "gym" (why do they have one? that money could have built a church or four in another country!) Or with yoga classes, or with hockey tournaments (only in Canada!) for that matter.

The great commission is very clear, isn't it? Mt 28:19,20 What other commands did the Lord give his church? Make your churches a cool, fun place? Do whatever you can to please everyone? Go with the spirit of the times? The great malady is that people do no longer want to lose their lives that Christ may live in them but they want to add Christ to their life to bring meaning to it, and hopefully health and prosperity, and oh yes, fitness, yey!. It is so self-centred, it stinks to heaven and it has nothing to do with true Christianity as it ignores obedience to the Word.

Do not most of us believe that we live in the end times? We need to get serious and quit playing games. Let the world distract itself from the fact that it is going down the path of destruction but let all true Christians turn their eyes to Jesus and spend much time witnessing and on their knees and serving Him in whatever capacity He sees fit. You are not your own, remember? You were bought at the price of His blood! Come out from among those who love the world and the things in the world, for the love of the Father is not in them. James 2:15-17

SolaVeritas. I agree with your point on the church becoming more and more apostate. Who can argue that?

But to now lump fitness in with prosperity and things of the world?

Please show me in the Bible where fitness is considered sin, or something to shy away from...

hi, iam guilty of getting judgemental over folks that are judgemental.we all can see that all of our writings are about THOSE folks.the church is made up us who follow Jesus and love Him to our own death. we need to be the salt and not the brine. we need to get in position to be helpers and examples of Gods love to those who are not as dedicated and not their critics as Jesus was when He walked the earth.He was angry at the pharisee because they were harsh critics of the ordinary folks using the law of God to beat them insteed of helping them.we need to show forth that love in our church experiences and strengthen the feeble weak church we have today.find a way to make things work rather than scream about that that does not work.jimp

zumba dancing is fun to do but I do not think that has a place within the church. The church is designated for fellowship,teaching and prayer. Bringing this other deals into the pictures becomes what Jesus termed the money changers and such, IMO. It really cheapens what the church is. Just like those churches who do bingo on Friday night. It is my view that if a church is having a gathering and it is for teaching, preaching, prayer or some kind of evangelism then that church has missed its calling and is straying away from what it is supposed to be doing.

zumba should be at home or in a fitness place. I have danced it and it is fun to do but but the founder of it I think has a bit of an ego thing going on, lol

"We are treating it as a law book of what we can and cannot do."

This is a fundamental problem as to why many leave the church. Churches use so much 'law' to say what is right and wrong that it chases out joy and freedom. Once we were made free but only to be bound again by the law? If you read articles by those who have been burned by the church you will see these things mentioned time and time again. Uusally the more conservative a church is the more the law is implied. It seems to be a 'control' issue in the view of many people. It is also cited by many as THE problem in the church. Cults use this very thing to put their people under subjection.

We all need to reevaluate ourselves under this circumstances Chances are the more serious you take yourself the more you probably will find yourself allowing 'law' beating you up and putting you in chains and freedom and joy has hitchhiked away from you.

Jesus Himself said Lu 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

The many posts opposing the concerns posted about worldliness in the church are just proving his point for Him! I, for one, am sick and tired of the "judge not" crowd. Anything goes as long as it gets people in the building. It's a pragmatic philosophy and non-Biblical.

How about "Free Beer Night"? or "Strippers For Jesus"? That's where this train of thoughts ends. (BTW these two things all ready exist)

Zumba is decidedly sensual and not appropriate for a church to offer, any open minded person with a Biblical world view would acknowledge that. Jesus did not say "Go ye into all the world and preach the fox-trot." He did, however say "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel"

zumba dancing is fun to do but I do not think that has a place within the church. The church is designated for fellowship,teaching and prayer. Bringing this other deals into the pictures becomes what Jesus termed the money changers and such, IMO

As Pointed by you, Jesus drove away those who were doing Business in God's house, it was not sin to do Business but it is not beneficial to God.
I left a Church in which I received Christ because they were arranging loans for those who lost jobs etc and openly announced in the Church for credits that they offer. I felt that when we give to church freely why do they not give to the needy freely? They might give with lesser interest rate than other credit services but it is still not the work of Church.

Jesus is the greatest drawing card the church has, He said "I IF I BE LIFTED UP, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME" Jesus, not Zumba.

BTW, How do you know my "maturity" level?

Dear browny,

Your post really shows the state of the Church today. This is happening in many cities through out the United states, not just dancing of course... many different worldly activities.

A friend of mine and his wife has been going to a large new church (3years that is new in terms of other churches in our area) for the last year. Just the other day I was talking to him on the phone discussing the state our country is in. When I read a quote from "tried and transfigured" by Leonard Ravenhill to him.

The next thing out of his mouth was "I don't think that I am truly saved." That statement didn't shock me but it did surprise me. I ask him three questions.

1. Have you ask Jesus Christ, into your heart and when?.
A. Yes, a year a ago during an alter call.

2. What brought you to the alter to accept Christ into your life?
A. He really like the church and all of the activities the church offered.

3. Were you baptized by water?
A. No. I was baptized as a baby in the catholic church.

I told him that unless his church was the new Christ, then you are not truly saved.

Then we spent the next two hours in scripture. The Holy Spirit had directed me to start in 1John Chapter 5. Then into Hebrews, then Mark, Mathew and finally into Romans. We dealt with the subject of sin,salvation, holiness, and the fear of the Lord.

He still didn't accept Christ that night however, We left it with if you were to die tonight you would most certainly go to the judgement seat and found guilty and cast into the hell for eternity, because God hates sin and in his presence will burn lick a gas soaked log.

I have never attended this church, however it is supposed to be a really good church from what I hear. I know others that attend there.

The problem I have is that the church never followed up with my friend and his wife after they accepted Christ (really that church). They didn't give guidance on what it means to be a christian, how to grow in the Lord or nothing...not even being baptized which is a requirement of salvation...Shame on this or any church that is to large and proud to sheppard the flock.

Approved wrote, "Why are we always saying that?" "Why do we always run to the bible?" "We are treating it as a law book of what we can and cannot do." "What happened to the Spirit of the Lord and our conscience?"

To answer your question Approved. "We" are always saying that for this reason... If you cannot back up your "belief" scriptually, then it is not scriptual.

People superimpose their personal beliefs in place of what the Lord states. This is this case here. If you cannot back something up scriptually, your belief is unscriptual. And you are nothing more then a clanging gong.

Approved said, "But we run to the bible as if we don't know it. Why is that?"

Answer. Because most people don't know it, or at the very least do not follow it. They want to follow a system of beliefs that coinside with their own personal belief system, even if that means that belief system adds or subtracts from scripture.

Approved said, "To obtain a second opinion?"

The Bible as a second opinion? Let me ask you Approved, if it were not for this "second opinion" called THE WORD OF GOD, what would you base your beliefs off of?

If it is not the Bible and the Word that you base your beliefs off of, what do you base it off of then?

The question of the profitability of exercise and does the Word have anything to say about it...

Consider 1Timothy 4:8 "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

I have had to consider my interest in exercise...the reasons for it...is it to make us look younger, have a more youthful figure? Sure! We ladies want to look like the beautiful figures sported by actresses...

On the other hand, what does nature show us? Let us look around at animals who care nothing about fitness, what do they look like? Look at any hen that has been laying eggs for a while, or any cow (gasp!) or bull (bovine), do they look like young heifers or bulls? Nope. Same with hogs, sheep - you name it. Any animal that has matured, that has reproduced looks like it with more size then one that is just entering into it.

There is a fitness industry out there working to put a guilt trip on people by saying they need to work on keeping their weight down in order to remain healthy. Are Christians being fooled into buying this sales pitch? On the other hand, there is merit in staying healthy, but what is our motivation?

The more I look at life, recall the people that have died, their ages and their figure, I am becoming more convinced then ever that if God wants you alive, fitness will matter little. Skinny people do not live longer, neither will fat people. If you belong to the LORD Jesus you follow him in matters of health - He will keep you so you can live profitably for Him.

According to the Scripture quoted, godliness is far more profitable then any fitness regimen. I would rather stake my life on the WORD then on some fitness guru!

AND if people would put as much effort into being godly as they do in staying physically fit, I wonder what the church would look like? Think about this a while!

Great post Ginny. With scripture. Thank you.

Yet... Fitness and excersise is still not sin. We need to distinguish between the two. I think for the most part your post hits the nail on the head.

Blessings!

QUOTE:
"Great post Ginny. With scripture. Thank you."

Thanks for your kindness...

Hi Jimp

What commandment about dancing are you referring to?