Osas vs. perseverance -\t-Apology--

Did not know that this topic was banned, I have deleted the original post and will not bring it up again according to the moderators wishes. I am sorry for those who get upset by such questions but I think as christian thinkers, we should be able to convey our ideas without coming across as aggressive and disrespectful....what must we sound like to an unbeliever (no matter whose definition) if we can't discuss our convictions in a civil manner. I apologize and will not bring this up again.

Hey Rawhide-

Well..... let's just say that horse has been beat to death again, again, again, and again on the forums.

Honestly, people do with those verses the same thing you do with verses that seem to disagree with your theology....preach around them! ;-)

Actually one of my college professors said that... but it has a grain of truth in it.

There are ample scriptures to prove all sides of this argument. All sides have plenty of scriptures and ammunition to "prove" their point... it is a fruitless discussion. This is especially on a public forum.

In addition, the moderators have asked that this topic specifically NOT be started again as it has only caused strife and discord.

So... just please let it drop and read one of the myriad of threads that has already beaten this to death from all sides. You will quickly see the wisdom of that decision by the moderators.

Blessings to you! However, pick another topic for a forum thread.

Sorry,i am a newer member and did not know this...but thank you so much for making that clear.

Hello Rawhide.

You raised a topic that even the most outstanding theologians have struggled over. I can vouch for Solomon - that it has been beaten to death here,. It is perhaps wise to leave this topic with those more qualified to handle it.

Recently I read the biography of George Whitefield by Dalimore and gained a deeper appreciation of the issue - as it affected him and John Wesley.

Without a doubt the Lord can guide you in your own search - not just to find pat answers, but to appreciate this centuries-long struggle.

May God bless you here on SI.

Diane

I know this is against what sermonindex ask us to do and not bring this up.

Could not resist, Once human always human, OHAH. Once a born again Christ natured person always a born again Christ natured person. OCPACP

If God saved me, no one can take me out of His Hands. I had nothing to do with either one of them, human or Christ person. OSAS

Quote: """Though others can have that OSAS mentality, I on the other hand am unable to think that way."""

I completely understand and ten years ago I would have completely agreed with you. Christ in me changed all that.

What makes a Father? Now I persevere as a son..

In Christ: Phillip

Hmmmmm..... very interesting isn't it?!?!

Rawhide makes a posts on a topic that the moderators and owner of the site have clearly stated is off limits and to not post on. However, as Rawhide is new, and had no idea, he is of course to be cut some slack as he did it in all clearness of conscience. No harm..no foul. Let it go and let the thread drop... no one should pick it up.

However, when those who clearly KNOW what the owner and moderators have established as the rules choose to go ahead and post to continue the thread that is wrong. In fact the follow up posters seemed to be unable to resist throwing their beliefs out there. They say so. One seems happy that a good brewhaha is coming. That is knowing full well someone will challenge their post... they are obviously itchin' for a fight.

Throwing your "belief" out on this topic after you know Greg and the moderators have made it crystal clear that it IS NOT to be done leaves only one conclusion--- you are in rebellion.

There is no other conclusion. They said, "Do not do it on this site"... you willingly rebelled at their decision on their site. THAT is rebellion and reveals a total lack of submission in the heart.

It would seem a statement of repentance to Greg and the moderators would be in order... followed by deleting every other word posted in the thread that is clearly rebellion to them. If you want to vent to your hearts content then get your own site and vent away. However, it is rebellion to do so on theirs when you know it violates their ruling on it.

Don't be mad that you are asked to abide by the same rules as everyone else instead of posting "hit and run" snippets that do nothing but engender strife and discord. As we all know.. one of the seven things the Lord says He hates is one who stirs dissension amongst the brothers..SO QUIT DOING IT.

Respect Greg's desires and the clearly expressed wishes of the moderators!

Delete the posts and apologize to the owner, moderators, and those members who have stayed submissive to them.

Now we will see where the heart is.

rawhide displayed a rare humble spirit and apologized as few have done here. Please extend some irresistable grace to him and accept him, no need to blast a newcomer.

Welcome brother, enjoy the vast resources of this forum!

God bless you, rawhide.

Those of us who have been here for a while have witnessed the devastating effects this topic brings to the forums. Occasionally, a newbie will come on and introduce this subject and have to be told it is off-limits.

I did a search but could not find in the rules anywhere that this topic is off-limits. Seems to me it would be wise if the mods would make a note of this in their list of off-limit topics. The reason we know it is off-limits is because they have told us in the forums when this topics' discussion got out of hand.

God bless.

Rawhide said: "Did not know that this topic was banned"

No, nor did I. Actually, it took me a few minutes to workout what OSAS might mean; I am a bit slow :-)

I checked the "SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules" (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36384&forum=13) and couldn't find any reference to this topic being banned, nor any list of banned theology topics. Perhaps I missed it, but I used the Find function in my browser and nothing on OSAS, Once Saved, Calvin or Armin... showed up.

This is what we are asked to read when we join, and I try to read it occasionally, to keep up to date on what the current attitude is. But if the banned list of topics isn't recorded here, where is it, so that we can all keep ourselves up-to-date. At least it would be good to link to it from the Community Rules page.

I suppose the closest one gets is in the rule "If you're posting a new topic, do not post something that has been discussed numerous times. Browse the forums first or use the Search function.", but the search function has also been disabled (?) and so this is no longer possible. Okay, one can do it through advanced search in Google, but that is more work.

If there is a banned list of topics, the Disclaimer needs to be amended from "You may have your theology turned inside out and upside down." to "You may have 80% (or 60% or 40%) of your theology turned inside out and upside down." But that is a light hearted observation, rather than a request for a change :-)

Kind regards
Mike

PS There is still a reference to Private Messages in these rules. I thought this function had also been removed?

PPS Some of us do our best to honour the site owner(s) and moderators, by trying to adhere to the rules. But that is a two way street, the site owner(s) and moderators should also keep the rules up-to-date and ensure that as far as possible adhering to them is facilitated by the site, itself.

PPPS Now I won't try "Arguing with the Moderator Team over the enforcement of these rules [as it] will get you no where." But it would be good if they could review this Disclaimer and Rules, to see if there is any way they can help us help them.

This post is not intended for you, rawhide but those of us who have been here awhile!!

Do we actually need MORE rules to conduct ourselves by? Do we need the ‘government’ of sermonindex telling us what we should and shouldn’t talk about? Do we need every jot and tiddle written plainly down for us who are supposed to be adults?

The point “is” not that we shouldn’t talk about these things but BEHAVING OURSELVES WHEN WE DO.

Iron sharpens iron but remember that people's feelings of self worth do not have to driven like a stake into the ground when someone adamantly disagrees with you and we know going into this that it is one of those adamant topics!

God bless us all!
Lisa

*** Like Solomon101, caps are not intended to be yelling but emphasizing.

Since this thread is still alive I share a personal burden which has lingered since those traumatic days here related to the theological disputes around OSAS. In the SI community, the OSAS debate is obviously a polemic topic.

Some years ago I posted a thread based on an article, called “POLEMIC THEOLOGY: HOW TO DEAL WITH THOSE WHO DIFFER FROM US”

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj33/article3.html by R. Nicole.

Tragically, the thread got locked because certain posters violated the very precautions addressed in this article. It was clear that one poster never read it but merely glanced at it and saw a reference to the OSAS issue. To her this was a red flag – and just too threatening. She mustered up all the psychological and emotional ammunition she could devise and launched a vicious attack. Obviously she had never been able to dislodge herself from her own past wounding related to the use (abuse!) of this theme. The potential benefit of the thread was lost because it got locked out entirely. No doubt, there was not another option - at the time.

I suspect that banning any topic simply because of past abuse is NOT going to solve anything. The problem merely goes underground – and it will continue to haunt God’s people. No one gets to learn how to handle polemic discussion or to love their “opponent” with Christian submissiveness. It might appear as if evil is suppressed for the time being. However really, the devil wins!

The OSAS topic is like a stick of dynamite - subject to exploding when in the hands of ill-prepared users. Rather than ban the topic, maybe God’s people would benefit more by learning how to deal with its polemic tendencies. That is why I recommend the POLEMIC THEOLOGY article. It's brilliant!

The subtitles are:

What Do I Owe to the Person Who Differs From Me?
What Can I Learn from Those Who Differ From Me?
How Can I Cope with Those Who Differ from Me?
Appeal to Reason
Appeal to History and Tradition

I suggest this article be required reading for anyone treading into a polemic topic. It should be a stickied thread. O sure, studying this paper demands diligent efforts, time and rigorous reflection! But if anyone does not wish to do that, then that person is certainly not qualified to discuss a topic that demands these very qualities.

It may be that God’s purpose is not that we arrive at the “right” conclusion so much that we learn how to submit to one another in Christian love – including our theologians from the past. Through dialogue we can learn about ourselves and our style of thinking and relating to others; we can learn to appreciate another’s perspectives. And perhaps we can give up our need to win and be “right”. I trust that that doesn’t sound too tedious.

It’s a risk, but in Christ there is always a way back: forgiveness and restoration.

And that’s a giant step forward – wouldn’t you say!

Diane

I appreciate all the support from yall,yes I am from texas where yall is legal to say! I have very thick skin, so don't think you could ever run me off just by a post. I tend to agree that no subject should be off limits, but as per my previous post,i think as thinkers should be able to discuss things without starting ww3...as someone already stated, you don't have to agree. I work with youth and so I deal with many questions that adults are frankly too scared to ask. I do not commit wholly to either calvinism or armenianism, both sides have their points, I rather side with those in acts that searched the scriptures to see which things are true.
Having said all that, the underlying question behind my original question is this: since the bible is written plainly, and clearly...shouldn't we take what it says for face value, in context, when there are statements made that are not in some metaphorical form? (ie the imagery in revelation.) I just tend to believe that the bible means what it says and, since I read mine in english, says it in plain english.
Please remember that we are to do all to the glory of God and that even applies to situations in which we disagree. Thanks for your input and don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon.

Hello and welcome rawhide :O)

You said:
"since the bible is written plainly, and clearly...shouldn't we take what it says for face value, in context, when there are statements made that are not in some metaphorical form? (ie the imagery in revelation.) I just tend to believe that the bible means what it says and, since I read mine in english, says it in plain english."

No argument here dear Brother. It "is" plain to read, but the most literal and obvious readings, in the context, will likely cause us the greatest grief. Taking certain passages at face-value will likely cause the most resistance from other western Christians today.

The Scriptures alone, inspired reason alone, the united testimony of the ancient Christians alone, will not move someone even one inch from his more complicated doctrines; that someone who only sees the loss of his church, his friends, perhaps even his family, even his assurance of salvation, should he instead embrace the most obvious and straightforward meaning of certain of the Scriptures.

What more can be said about this sad division in the Church? What more can be done to bridge this terrible divide?

A great deal.

What more may I say about this here?

Nothing.

God bless you Brother. Very nice to "meet" you.

Be well today,
Doug

Who ever knew, probably the whole group but the new guy, that all of these good posts would come from all this. To add to your post, the one thing I pray/teach is that I DO NOT want to be right for my own ego, rather i do NEED to be right for the sake of future generations and for the fact that I will be judged on what I say. I don't want to be in err because of the dire consequences, we are dealing with literal heaven and hell. I strive to find answers for those purposes only. Thanks again for all the insights!

and sometimes it can get a little heated... and thats ok too. There was a very heated conversation between Paul and Barnabas, and there was a heated confrontation between Paul and Peter. It happens. But it needs to be seasoned with love and forgiveness.

Just because Paul and Barnabas had heated arguments it does not mean believers can have it. Paul and Barnabas are not our source of Salvation. If they were author of your salvation then you are free to believe that believers can have heated agrument.

John 17-20:- Jesus's final prayers for Believers who believe in him based on the words of his deciples.

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,

So Jesus wants us all to be one, with one belief and one Theology which is the word of God. But it is the work of Devil to seperate us and to devide us.
How can there be a heated argument if we were all united like how Father and Son were united? Can you see Jesus having heated argument with his Father?

We are simply recognizing that we're human, and as such there are times when we're going to disagree.

There is nothing wrong in disagreeing, but heated argument is different. All I am saying is we cannot take Paul and Barnabas as our examples in this thing.

Jesus came to save us from our Human nature, there is no secret other than Holy Spirit which shows us the spirit of Jesus. If you need books other than Bible to experience the Holy Spirit then there is something wrong.

Our personal attitude against heated argument is important. If we think we are bound to fall into it sometime, then we will definitely fall. If we believe that Jesus can help us then we can stand for him.

Diane... marvelous! I appreciate you more and more every day.

So sweet, Krispy! And it’s mutual. We both came here in 2005, and I'd say that your writing has grown steadily richer since those early days. I value it more and more.

cheerily,

Diane

I look back over the years... and I cringe! Lol

Maybe it’s less agonizing to simply marvel over God’s grace in it all!

Sree, thank you for your points. Of course many truths, like the ones you present, have an equal and opposite truth. Here is my “balancing” act – for what it’s worth.

All I am saying is we cannot take Paul and Barnabas as our examples in this thing.

Jesus came to save us from our Human nature,

If you need books other than Bible to experience the Holy Spirit then there is something wrong.

If we think we are bound to fall into it sometime, then we will definitely fall.

If we believe that Jesus can help us then we can stand for him.

All that rambling to say I can agree with you, Sree, in that we can graciously accept disagreement. What we do with it – well that is another matter. And that is what I hear you saying.

Diane

There is some amazing truth in what you have posted. Balancing an argument is something that God is teaching me these days. I am still learning. It is really encouraging to see someone balance our statements to show the other side of it. I thought it is good to give few clarifications, other than these I agree with everything you have posted.

I’m guessing you mean “sinful” nature. After all, Jesus came not to free us from human nature, but to free us to be truly human in nature – in other words: be free from our craving to be more than we are: “as God” (Remember, that was our original temptation in the Garden.)

I wonder if you are referring to fear. Certainly the reverse is also true: He who assumes he is bound NOT to fall, is indeed bound to fall.

Hi Rawhide,

This conversation between Charles Simeon who was a calvinist and John Wesley, an arminian illustrates the fact that they have more things in common than they have differences.

“Sir,” said Simeon to Wesley, “I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the
combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions . . . Pray, sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought
of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?”

“Yes,” said the veteran Wesley, “I do indeed.”

“And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?”

“Yes, solely through Christ.”

“But Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?”

“No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.”

“Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?”

“No.”

“What, then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?”

“Yes, altogether.”

“And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto his heavenly kingdom?”

“Yes, I have no hope but in him.”

“Then, Sir, with your leave, I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is
in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree."

The proponents of either theological side believe that we need to:

turn (repent) and believe Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior obey his teachings & commands
love God and our neighbor
be holy as He is holy
walk in the light as he is in the light
that we should confess our sins
bear the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace etc.
live in the Spirit and walk in the Spirit
that we should grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ
that we are justified and sanctified by faith
that he who through the Holy Spirit perseveres in his faith to the end is a true believer.

Classical calvinism and armianism has no shortcuts to holy living and provide no cheap grace and easy believism to the neglect of good works in the life of the believer.

-edited-

I have heard that story before, and I will admit that I would lean more to the calvinistic side of thought....but that is the whole reason I posted the unpostable question to begin with. If we say once saved always saved, or we talk about the perseverence of the saints, there is a difference by definition. So how do we reconcile passages like those found in hebrews 6? Really this has nothing to do with calvinism and armenianism, but possibly an in house debate on calvinism....i don't know, but I suspect somewhere down the line perseverence was adopted as osas. I'm not trying to start a feud,i guess my real question is how did we get to this point?

Why would anyone believe he could loose his salvation? Unbelief correct? "Believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Is this a law? Unbelief has always been the reason we need a Savior. Adam believed in satan and all die. Old testament saints believed in the Law and it was recconed to them as righteousness, but no life in the law. Those who "live by the law will die in the law. Even those who believed God, as Abraham, of whom God reconned to him as righteousness. Still reconning could not give life.

Life is in the Son only, for old and new testament believers. So, now that we are made righteous by the Christ that is born again in us by His Spirit in and satan spirit out, we are new creatures. If God has made us righteous by the incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ born again in us who must be the one that makes new born babes on milk, new life, lifeless? Would this not take God saying He made a mistake and now will abort the new life He has given to the New Testament believer?

What it comes down to is: Law! Law, Law, Law, how does it give life? It cannot. The new life in the believer is from God and no one can take us out of His hands. Is God right in putting His incorruptable Seed Jesus Christ in the believer, or is He just hoping that Seed will allow the believer to maintain his salvation by his works. Or is it what scripture says, "Whereby I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily."

How can one loose his salvation, only by his mind believing he can. God does not make mistakes and give rebirth of His Son in the believer and then take Him away. No matter what man does God is greater, and grace does much more abound.

I being in Christ and Christ birthed in me cannot loose what God has done. I might run from God but I cannot overcome His righteous act of birthing His Son in me, even if I change my belief, It is done and I can't undo it.

Christ in me will come to pass, no matter what I do, God is depending on Jesus Christ in me, not me. This I believe contrary to all the scripture that seem to nulify my new birthing by what i do. This does not make me a non doer, but now i do because it is Jesus Christ who works in me.

In Christ: Phillip

I don't guess I know how to articulate what I am asking very well, but I am going to try one more time. I believe in eternal security,i believe when you are saved you are a new creature in christ and you can never be taken from his hand,I'm pretty sure most everybody will agree with that. But if there is to be a great falling away, and more specifically a falling away from the faith as in hebrews 6, I would think that there has to be a way that there is a falling that there is no repentance. Hebrews 6 is specifically talking about someone that has been a part of knowing the good things of christ. So what do we say?

My own study and belief If they fall away it is impossible to bring them to repentance, so it is also impossible for those that are in Christ to fall away. All in Christ are brought to repentance by the blood of Christ and His Cross. I am cleansed from all unrighteousness through the Cross, but when I confess sin in my life, that is why God is faithful and even just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness, because of Jesus Christ and His righteousness imputed to us and by His life in us. 1 John 1:9 is for us to have no condemnation in Christ Jesus and His work of the Cross. Satan will try to condemn us and if we believe him we are in unbelief. This does not set me free to sin, just the oposite, it sets me free to not sin, especially agreeing with God that sin is death.

In Christ: Phillip

After further study, thanks for all the leads and verses,i think the real key verses in hebrews 6 are actually verses 7&8 which talk about the bearing of fruit. This example has been seen several times in scriptures, and has given me a more clear understanding on who the truely converted are...there will be genuine fruit. I had the "a-ha!"moment when I began to focus on these verses and then relate them to the previous. No repentance, no fruit, no salvation. How this could ever happen (and I think of my own experience) is beyond my reasoning, but I guess thats the difference between enlightenment and being in the dark. Thanks for all the posts and you've just got to love it when the "a-ha!" hits.

Sree wrote, in response to my earlier post.

No, I am not referring to fear. I am referring to taking fall lightly, this is the greatest unbelief that is in Christianity today. People do not understand the power of Holy Spirit that God has poured into them, that is why they still believe in occasional falling and think that it is unavoidable.

I see, Sree. So you are saying that the acceptance of defeat may be an indication of unbelief – a passive resignation to our sin? Is that right? I agree with that! I was on a completely different track. I was thinking of all the times doing something scary – like performing a musical solo in front of a big crowd: When I believed I would mess up and I thought about it – well - I did mess up!
Thanks for the clarification!

And now – to Rawhide. You ask:

So how do we reconcile passages like those found in hebrews 6?

What if we keep in mind that Western way of thinking is centered on the individual. The writer of Hebrews is on a different wave length. He’s thinking collectively – specifically an entire nation in the Sinai desert. That was his paradigm. It was the nation that fell away as a whole. He’s not necessarily talking about individuals, yet because we instinctively apply everything to individuals, we do it here too. Could that be right?

My thoughts (before I read rawhide’s last post): I wonder if this OSAS dispute remains unresolved because we have various unrecognized presuppositions which we inadvertently insert into the text (like I did to Sree’s words). By the same token, I wonder if faulty understanding of the word “repentance” AS USED IN Hebrews 6:6 – blocks our ability to understand the text. What did the author have in mind???

Then I saw Rawhide’s words:

No repentance, no fruit, no salvation.

Maybe this is just what the author had in mind! It is easily supported with other scriptures. I will ponder over this.

Diane

Rawhide,

I would like to talk to you privately....by e-mail .....phone,

But I don't really know how that can be.

Forgive,me dear Greg,for this once...,

Rawhide, Please consider,

'The ten vergins '...Five were Wise, ' and 'Five were Foolish '

They were All virgins...meaning they were All Pure.
Question: Are we Pure ,before we pass through Jesus' Blood ?...
Are,are we born into sin ?

The Five Wise virgins kept Oil in their lamps....they were burning bright...
...(Oil : The Alive anointing.)
The Five Foolish virgins ..ho...hum,..ed,..and Slumbered and Slept.

Now, let us look at what happened to the ,Five Foolish virgins

Mt.25:6),And at midnight there was a cry made,Behold, the Bridegroom
cometh ;go ye out to meet Him.
V.7) Then all those virgins arose And trimmed there lamps.

(to trim up the wick that burns that makes the lamp burn evenly .this wick reaches down into the Oil to draw this Oil up to burn.)

Note: The Foolish primpted up their lamps, but it did No good...,
They had to have 'The Oil' ..the Alive Oil ,the Onointing Oil..,
And they didnot have any !
Then Note: they were in desperate NEED,but when the Lord came it was too late...'The door was shut '.and search,what happened to these that had No Oil ?Wern't they cast into outer darkness ?

It is the Lord ,alone ,that can give us this Oil,and we need a continual
filling.

Please read and study the whole chapter.
We are all disciples (meaning,learners)at Jesus' feet.

Have a blessed day,
Elizabeth

Elibeth,

I don't guess I see where your viewpoint differs from mine, but I did read matt.25 to see if there was something I missed. In the simplest terms: practice what you preach...bear fruit...let your light shine...persevere....all of these are saying the same thing: always serve God til he comes. I guess my simple mind may just be a little too country sometimes, but it seems that these things are the core of what I've been saying. But please feel free to point out anything I may have missed.

Just curious, has anyone had the chance to read the article I posted a few pages back called:

“POLEMIC THEOLOGY: HOW TO DEAL WITH THOSE WHO DIFFER FROM US”
by R. Nicole.

found here:

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj33/article3.html ?

Do you think it is helpful for you?

Diane

Yes, thanks! I've never understood how you can "taste" of all these things and not be saved....however if thats the case, even if they were immature believers, wouldn't that give some impression that there is the ability to "fall away"? There is no "loss", but rather a "giving back". I want to be clear here,i know that in genuine conversion all things have passed away and all things are new,you WILL have fruit, there is an ongoing process of repentance and sanctification... I KNOW these things first hand. But the bible talks about falling away from something, and you can't fall away from something you've never been close to...hence my question. Thanks approved for putting it, hopefully, in a more understandable way.

Yes, thanks! I've never understood how you can "taste" of all these things and not be saved....however if thats the case, even if they were immature believers, wouldn't that give some impression that there is the ability to "fall away"? There is no "loss", but rather a "giving back". I want to be clear here,i know that in genuine conversion all things have passed away and all things are new,you WILL have fruit, there is an ongoing process of repentance and sanctification... I KNOW these things first hand. But the bible talks about falling away from something, and you can't fall away from something you've never been close to...hence my question. Thanks approved for putting it, hopefully, in a more understandable way.

i herd a good sermon paul washers paster that touched on this subject

i dont believe tasting the heavenly gift
i dont believe the foolish virgins recieved the holy spirit what so ever
i dont believe this is the same as being born again
for he whom is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch ,,,,,john touches on many verse ,,like he who sins has neither seen god nor knowen god ,,
they went out from us becasue they were not of us , if they had been of us they would of continued with us
the folish virgins were not of the same spirit as the as the wise virgins ,if they were they would have continued with the wise ,tho thy probably tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come

i think some one can taste the gift ,have the seed of repentance ,,,and believe in jesus ,but by no means be saved,,,,,,,,the bible speaks of those who believed in jesus but jesus new there hearts wernt right ,and refused to preaced in there town

the bible talk about the genuiness of ones faith is tested by god ,,,which undoubtably implys ,that a person can have a faith that is not genuine not a real saving enduring faith

this is why they fall away and apostasise

people can have this type of faith ,and have conviction of sin ,resulting in a type of repentence ,,,but it never takes root in there heart

in this scence they can be grafted in to the vine ,,,but not all grafts take ,and will eventualy wither and be pluck of by the husbaneman

many are called but few are choosen ,and elected by forknowlage

many are drawn by the fathers spirit
but few experance an efectaul calling that proves election

not many will forsake all that they have
and therfor be worthy to be called a deciple

god knows whom are his ,and who will forsake all

those are the secret ones who the father has givern him
and the father wills is that none of those should perish

and as jesus prayed for peter that satan would not take him
so he also prayed for these secret ones whom the father has givern him that they will be one with him and behold his glory in heaven ,,,and the father will answer his sons prayer ,for he prayed according to gods will ,and was herd becasue of his godly fear

the pretenders is the name of the sermon by paul washers paster , jeff noblit,,,,,worth a listen

bless you all brethern

i think it is clear that jesabell only called her self a prophertess,,but was not a prophert of god ,and you will no them by there fruits ,,for a good tree does not produces bad fruit like jesabeal

the call of repentence is still offerd to her as it was to gods servents ,,,and jesus sheep will hear his voice and follow him regardless of there stumble and as he said he knows them they will follow him and they will never perish ,neither will any one pluck them out of hisor his fathers hand ,for the father is greather then all even jezabeal

rawhide wrote:
But the bible talks about falling away from something, and you can't fall away from something you've never been close to...hence my question.

I have a jail ministry with my friends and you can ask the women in there who is saved and 99% of these girls will raise their hands and they can trace it back to “ONE” prayer they said when they were five years old (or 10 or whenever) and they were told they were saved and going to heaven and to never let anyone tell them differently. It’s like any type of repentance is getting saved all over again which of course they don’t have to do since they have already been saved.

I’ve had this conversation with people on here (SI) and they always tout the “right and perfect way” that osas should be taught but you know what? That is not how people are teaching it in the real world; in the real world there are probably one billion versions of osas that have been taught down through the years to somebody’s shame. And the Lord has to undo what people have done.

I asked the Lord what to do and say to these girls because I wasn’t telling anyone they “weren’t” saved and He showed me to begin teaching them about a “lifestyle of repentance” and praise God that is working!

There is a LOT of pride in pastors / preachers who can spout how many people they’ve led in the sinner’s prayer but I wonder if they even have a clue as to how many are with the Lord five years later? But according to osas, they all are whether they are or not.

God have mercy on us all,
Lisa

There is a LOT of pride in pastors / preachers who can spout how many people they’ve led in the sinner’s prayer but I wonder if they even have a clue as to how many are with the Lord five years later? But according to osas, they all are whether they are or not.

You are talking about assurance policies dispensed by the church to its congregants. I think every denomination has its particular brand, with its particular conditions. But to a large extent they are void. Our assurance is in Christ, not (often simplistic) man-made packages.

But can we judge all who defend OSAS to have this same misunderstanding of salvation? In that case, then the real issue is not about eternal security in Christ, but about the meaning and means of salvation. Even here, all the theorizing in the world is going to be fraught with risks – due to our finite understanding of God’s ways with humankind. Jesus did say, “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sounds but you cannot tell where it comes from of where it is going. So is it with everyone born of the Spirit.” Jn. 3:8

i think some one can taste the gift

Since the writer of Hebrews is referring back to Israel in the desert, we can know specifically what it was they tasted of God’s Spirit among them:

It was the cloud, the pillar of fire, Christ’s Spirit in the rock that gushed water….. and much more!

Yet, these people did not enter the Promised Land - because of unbelief. They did not enter God’s rest. Unbelief was the diagnosis designated to them collectively, but did this not apply to all of them. Moses had faith. Joshua and Caleb, unlike the rest of them, had faith.

As I noted earlier, we tend to interpret everything individualistically, the writer of Hebrews was thinking about Israel collectively. Collectively, they fell away. But not all of them did, really. Is that not correct?

Diane

Jesus is God and Diane; you both hit on some good stuff. In Romans 9-11 you will notice salvation is opened up to the Gentiles through Israel's disobedience/unbelief. But Israel's state is temporary. When you read Romans 9, you must also continue to read 10 and 11 with it because it is still of the same thought. In 9 look up all the OT scriptures mentioned and paralleled and you will see in the OT God spoke concerning election nationally ie Israel. In the NT God speaks of election in terms of His Church ie Ephesians 1. In both cases the election is corporate, not individual.

Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Same holds true in the church today, not all are saved that go to church.

Secondly you are both right, many within the calvinist camp will say when asked what are the warning passages in scripture for? They are there to cause the saints to persevere.

The problem with that is that if the warning passages are to cause the saints(the elect) to persevere, isn't God giving a false warning to the elect? Because in reality according to OSAS, the elect not persevering could never really happen. So again I ask what are the warning passages in scripture for if the elect couldn't fall away in the first place?

Russ

Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Same holds true in the church today, not all are saved that go to church.

Same is ture even about the story of Exodus where the entire generation including Moses failed to enter the promise land, though the promise was originally given to them.

The problem with that is that if the warning passages are to cause the saints(the elect) to persevere, isn't God giving a false warning to the elect?

Good point, Can someone from Calvinist camp explain me this verse from Hebrews. I am not asking it to Challenge anyone but I want to know what a real knowledgable Calvinist thought about this scripture.

Hebrews 6-4:-
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Sree posted this scripture:

Hebrews 6-4:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Jesus-is-God, I was thinking of Hebrews, because that is where the idea of falling away is typically drawn from. I think the writer had corporate Israel in mind. They had it all – but in the end they generally rejected it in unbelief. Are there any verses that suggest they once actually believed (other than the few)?

Here’s a thought: What if we link the word “repentance” in Heb. 6:4 with the earlier use of the word in 6:1 where we read: “not laying again the foundation of repentance”. It seems that the writer is talking about a foundation – specifically Jesus Christ – who cannot be sacrificed again.
In that way Jesus is BETTER than the sacrificial system: He’s once for all. Each time there is a falling away (corporately?), there is no need to renew the foundation of repentance. Any effort to do so, be that by the sacrificial system or other effort, is really an expression of unbelief.

There is no third covenant. Today is the day of salvation. That’s why we are admonished to encourage one another – to guard against the hardening of hearts, and to persevere.
In view of church history – and also Rev. 2,3, it is surely evident that the people of God have a constant propensity to collectively fall away from her calling. Still there are the few Joshua's and Caleb's among them who will ultimately persevere -because they truly know the Lord through faith (belief).

Does that thought offer anything useful here?

Diane

Yes, your explanation really makes sense. Thanks for sharing it.
If I understand you correctly, the repentance referred here according to you is actually 'laying again a new foundation'.

So the verses Hebrews 6-6 can be read as -

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to LAYING AGAIN A NEW FOUNDATION , since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

How do you then explain verses 7 and 8 in Hebrews 6 where he compares such fallen people to a land that grows thones and Thistles even after receiving the rain that falls on it freely (here the rain is the Holy Spirit poured on such men by God). Verses 8 also states that such a person is cursed and not blessed with Salvation.

One more thing that I feel is contradicting to your explanation is the word RENEW used in Hebrews 6-6. Renew means to do in the same way so Renew them again to repentance, sounds like bring them back to repentance the same way as they were before. 'Renew a new foundation' lacks sense, because if you are laying a new foundation itself then it cannot be a called renewal. Forexample renew your marriage vows does not mean get married again. They both are different.

Again I am just bringing the questions, my intention is not to argue but to get answers that satisfy my needs.

i agree with you, that is where the real hang up on these verses is: being able to "renew them again unto repentance". that's what is causing all the questions concerning this post. it's not that they have never had repentance, it's that they cannot be renewed again. the previous chapter basically lays out the gospel of Jesus, and leading into 6 the author talks about how the people should be eating "meat" by now. in verses 1-3, the author says there's really no need to cover the gospel again,so let's move on to the "meat" and in verses 4-6 we get into the present discussion. i promise all those out there that are probably thinking i'm lost or that i'm on the way to leading others down the wrong path, that all of these things i have brought up have nothing to do with the "basics" of the gospel: grace through faith, regeneration, etc. i just wanted some real feedback on what these verses could mean. i'm a firm believer the word of God is inerrant and if that's so, then we should be able to read it for what it is saying, whether that be in hebrew, greek, english, or any other language it is printed. just as hebrews 13:8 says: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever...the same should be said for the word of God and so it should have the same implications now as it has throughout history.

Now that I have gotten myself way over my head....I'll proceed and dig myself a deeper hole:

I see that the Greek word for "renew" here is only used once in scripture, and it is made with a prefix (ana) added to a word which means "new". But I cannot see how the prefix needs to be understood as "re" - the way we use it: again. It is more the idea of upward, as opposed to downward (kata).

To make this more challenging: There is no Greek word for "them" here - that is an implied word.

Now that is absolutely no help!

Perhaps this is where an expert in Biblical Greek could be helpful. But, without such a resource, we would do well to head the warnings put forth by people like Kay Arthur:

CONTEXT IS KING! Never start with the obscure verses. Examine the wider context first through proper exegetical study. Notice what is said repetitively and obviously. What is the author trying to say? What is his aim? If your interpretation of an obscure verse doesn't fit the bigger context - you are likely wrong.

Diane

Hebrews 6-4:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Consequentlly those that are in Christ who are going on into perfection cannot fall away and this is what we are thought of in better things of those that are in Christ.

God in all my weekness if I have the slightest thought of turning to God and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because Jesus paid such a price, God our Father puts Jesus by rebirthing in the believer and He is there to stay. All has become new, even the renewing of my mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit teacher of all Jesus has said.

In Christ: Phillip

CONTEXT IS KING! Never start with the obscure verses. Examine the wider context first through proper exegetical study. Notice what is said repetitively and obviously. What is the author trying to say? What is his aim? If your interpretation of an obscure verse doesn't fit the bigger context - you are likely wrong.

I don't believe in doing Greek based study of any verse. I believe that God won't let his people be confused by any verse because it is tanslated wrongly by men inspired by his Spirit. Such Greek based study might bring more light to a word but cannot change the light in new direction from what the verse sounds in general to a layman like me.

So coming to your theory of studing the verse based on context, so based on verses 7 and 8 which clearly compares such a man to a real world scenario of a land that fails to bear crops even after receiving good rain. Such a land is burnt (picture of hell), implying that such a man also loses his salvation.

Also since in the begining of Hebrews 6 the author talks about discussing mature things that is not for Children (elementary teachings) so the fact that a man can lose his salvation that is mentioned here (from verse 4) is a mature thing that is not discussed with everyone. For example with new born Christians, for whom such Solid food will cause distruction. That is why in other letters such mature subjects are not discussed freely.

Again I am just posting the questions in my mind. I am not posting them to prove anything is false or true.

Hebrews 6-4:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Consequentlly those that are in Christ who are going on into perfection cannot fall away and this is what we are thought of in better things of those that are in Christ.

God in all my weekness if I have the slightest thought of turning to God and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because Jesus paid such a price, Jesus is birthed in the believer and He is there to stay. All has become new, even the renewing of my mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit teacher of all Jesus has said.

In Christ: Phillip

Hebrews 6-4:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Consequentlly those that are in Christ who are going on into perfection cannot fall away and this is what we are thought of in better things of those that are in Christ.

This truly is assurance of OSAS. Praise God it is not up to me, God has done it all in Christ.

God in all my weekness if I have the slightest thought of turning to God and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because Jesus paid such a price, Jesus is birthed in the believer and He is there to stay. All has become new, even the renewing of my mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit teacher of all Jesus has said.

In Christ: Phillip

I appreciate your opinion, but there is nothing in scripture to support it.

This is the funniest thing I have heard today. You made my day. It is good to expect scriptural proof for things, but to expect a scripture to show that God will not complicate things and make us do complex researches to understand scripture is little too much.

Jokes apart, this is my belief on basic character of God as depicted by Jesus. God is a simple person, he cannot complicate things. Also Jesus said this in Matthew 5-20:-

For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

If one needs to learn Greek and make deep research on the root of each word to understand the right meaning of scripture then how can Jesus expect a common man to surpass the righteousness of Scribes? The meaning of Matthew 5-20 is this, God reveals himself to us and you don't need to be an expert to know him and to exhibit his nature.

Christinyou you wrote:

"Consequentlly those that are in Christ who are going on into perfection cannot fall away and this is what we are thought of in better things of those that are in Christ.

This truly is assurance of OSAS. Praise God it is not up to me, God has done it all in Christ."

Question: what are the warning passages in scripture for?

thanks russ

Sree wrote:
If one needs to learn Greek and make deep research on the root of each word to understand the right meaning of scripture then how can Jesus expect a common man to surpass the righteousness of Scribes?

Righteousness really doesn’t have anything to do with the written word in my humble opinion, since it’s only been readily available to the masses for the last 2 or 300 years.

God bless,
Lisa

Quote: """Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

What if we don't mortify the deeds of the body?

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

What if we don't endure?"""

Who did?

In Christ: Phillip

we see the princaple of gods efectual election in saving everyone in the boat ,from death ,,,,,this is a picture of salvation of the elect regarding the soul

god has promised to save all on the boat ,,yet in the following scripture ,,,,,,warnings are givern to literaly stay in the boat other wise all will be lost

the same question can be asked ,,if god said that none would be lost ,,by then does he exort them to stay in the boat other wise they will al be lost ,,,,,,,,this seems to be how god acomplishes his purpose of saving ,through warnings

that is the same princaple used in scripture to exort and warn the church to indure to the end

acts 022:

And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

023:

For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

024:

Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

025:

Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

026:

Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.

030:

And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,

031:

Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

032:

Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off.

033:

And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.

034:

Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

tho they were promised they would be saved ,they we also exorted to eat and stay in the boat ,,,,,,,,

one might say if they wher promised by god that none would perish ,,what is the point of the warning

one might also say if we are elected ,and saved by god and his efectual promise and will undoubtable endure if we are truly his ,why does he warn us to indure

well brothers and sister ,the bible does not literaly answer this question ,,,,but the scripture planly shows this inigma ,,or aparent contradiction

gods ways are above ours ,,and we only no in part and propasise in part ,,,but brethern when he comes , we will understand why he did it like this ,,but untill then ,,,we can see that scripture teaches the persavernence of the true saints ,and the warnings

blessings saints

Maybe we should have started from the beginning of Hebrews and gone all the way through by chapter so that we make sure to put it all in context, because i agree that context is important. (these are cowboy translations, that's what i do for a living...just a little background info) Chapter 1:Jesus came down from Glory, he is the author and finisher of our faith. Chapter 2:a bit more of the same, Jesus as a man, for man. Chapter 3:don't harden your hearts as in the provocation. As per our discussion, vs. 6&7 both talk about holding our confidence til the end. Chapter 4:you must have faith to enter in to rest (heaven) and God will be able to see if you have true faith. Chapter 5:Jesus, the high priest...vs. 11 is where it starts getting into our discussion more. vs. 11:there are many teachings, but you cannot understand, 12:by now you should be teaching and not in pre-k, but you have not learned so you still have to be taught, 13:you cannot teach because you are still a babe, 14:the deeper teachings are for those who have grown in their faith. Chapter 6: vs.1-2: leaving all the basics of the gospel--repentance from dead works, faith toward God, baptisms, etc.-- you know all the basics of the gospel, so we won't keep going, let's talk about the "meat".

And so this is where our discussion begins. The following verses 9+ talk about inheriting the promise. Interestingly enough, verse 11 also states again to "shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:12-that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

So, we have put the chapters leading up to 6 into context, basically that we must have faith that Jesus is our salvation, then the author moves to a deeper topic in chapter 6. I realize that the book of Hebrews was primarilly written to the Jewish people and not to us "heathens" :), but Romans also says that "there is no respect of persons with God." As I've previously stated, I also know that the Word of God is infallible, and so, with that in mind, I know that Hebrews was meant for all persons, but was geared towards the Jewish frame of mind. It applies to us just as much as it did to them, and the Word is not of any private interpretation...our faithful ascestors, a good majority, never knew hebrew, greek, latin or any other languages that went into the writing of our bible that we have today. A large sum of them didn't even know how to read or write and yet God saw fit to open their spiritual eyes to the truths we are now discussing. I know that we all come to the table wearing different glasses, but I have tried to take mine off and read these passages for what they are, and I can't help but think that, just as Jesus said we must have "childlike faith", maybe we should read these for exactly what they say.

hello approved

i believed you can see the princaple in acts at work in the scripture you posted in mathew

and with in the writings of the blessed john

we can apply a princaple ,,where by those lives after the flesh ,john uses the word sin ,,,, these are of the devil
he who is born of god keeps him self and the devil does not touch him
those who live after the flesh bare bad fruit ,becasue realy they are a bad tree

he who fails to indure ,show evedence that they are not of god ,they were never realy converted

they went out from us
because they were not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with
but they went out from us that it might be manfest
that they were never of us

he who sins has neither seen god ,nor noen god

he who doesnt have indurence and goes out and falls awys ,according to john ,has never seen nor noen god
which means they were never born again
but they only tasted of the things of god

they never consumed the spirit of god into the center of there being
they never became new creations ,and old theings never truly passed away

Quote: """I appreciate your opinion, but there is nothing in scripture to support it."""

Is it you that lives to God or is it Christ in you that lives to God, is it your life God is depending on or is the Life of Christ in you He depends on?

Gal 2;20 "It is no longer I who life, but Christ who liveth in me. The life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God"

How can it be any plainer?

In Christ: Phillip

i agree with you raw hide

we must not pluck verse out too suit our presumtions,,,im not refuring to any here just agreeing with you brother

chapter 5 is speaking about old testament practices and chapter six seems to be refuring to those who were involved with the old ,came to the door way of the new covernent,,recieved some light ,but fell away ,,,verse nine ,,shows that the writter was not talking directly about the readers

but to keep all those verss in together in a contex ,,doesent negate the fact that we must also do that to every letter in the new testament including johns letters and gosple

and it also doesnt negate the princaple at work in acts 27 ,,,which shows prophetic efectual promises of saving ,combined with prophetic waring of perishing

which seems to be a problem relating to the theoligy regarding , the loseing of ones salvation ,in contrast to the pesaverence of the saints

also like you said about hebrews being writtern to the hebrew ,,,,,we must interpret this with herbrew lenses on

the hebrew also saw the soverenty of god in all things

and i dont believe equated inlightened ,with salvation of the soul

the word inlightend doesnt carry the same meaning as saved in the greek ,nor in the hebrew mind set

tasting the heavenly gift ,doesnt carrie the same meaning ,recieving the heavenly gift ,or being filled with the heavenly gift

these words used are not the same in any way

blessings

Quote: """Question: what are the warning passages in scripture for?"""

These passages are the principle for our love afair with God in our appreciation for saving a wretch like me. I do them now because I love God not because I will loose my salvation if I don't do them. How much do we love God? Keep my commandments. Who's peace do we have, who's life do we now have, who's faith do we now have, who's love do we now have, etc:? Who loved me and gave Himself for me?

In Christ: Phillip

ithink even judas was a partaker of the spirit ,he did many things to indicate that,,,,,,,,,but jesus called him a devil ,,i dont believe he was bornagain

the bible calls him a theif he was stealing money from the treasury ,,,,,the apostal john says that he who does not practic righesness is not of god

i dont believe the fruit that judas was displaing was good fruit i dont believe he was bornagain ,,, desplaid fruit ,but not good fruit ,,he cast out demons ,preached the kingdom ,but all along was a devil ,or a wolf in sheep skin ,,,,,
in a scence he was undoubtably a participant
but was he born of god ,by the definition taught in the letter of john ,,,,,i cant see how he could be ,,,

by their fruit ,
you will know them

Again I am just posting the questions in my mind. I am not posting them to prove anything is false or true.

I like that! Sree, you have the courage to risk – and throw something into the mix. I’d like to throw something in too – a story I heard in church yesterday:

“One day a little boy was describing a manger scene. He pointed to the sheep, and Mary and Joseph. And then he said, ‘There is Baby Jesus in his carseat.’”

Isn’t that profound! Let’s admit, this little boy could never have imagined a “manger”. I can’t begin to imagine how much we cannot imagine – because of cognitive limitations.

God is a simple person, he cannot complicate things.
I’m not convinced that God is a simple person. But I do believe that he doesn’t aim to complicate things for us. We complicate things. But since we don’t know when we are doing that, we do need others to break through our blind spots and bring clarity to us – like Greek scholars. Biblical Greek is Koine Greek – the common language of the people in Jesus day. It’s not high-brow, scholarly. It’s not sophisticated – at least it wasn’t to people in that day. But, unfortunately, that doesn’t mean that we can instinctively grasp the subtleties of this ancient language. Even the Bible translators find this a challenge. Still I am inclined to agree with you Sree, that this is not the problem we are dealing with.

Question to ponder: How does one’s view regarding this present issue affect their ability to comply with the author’s purpose for the epistle to the Hebrews? What is the author trying to accomplish by this letter?

Diane

Christinyou. That doesn't answer the question.

What are the warning passages in scripture for?

russ

Quote: """ Re:
Christinyou. That doesn't answer the question."""

Sorry if it does'nt for you it does for me.

"""What are the warning passages in scripture for?

russ"""

In Christ: Phillip

hi russ have you read the scripture in acts regarding the infalble promise for all who are in the boat that none would perish as apromise from god ,,,along side the warning which came after the promise ,, that the men must abide in the boat ,,,,,,,,god uses warninmgs to acopmlish his soveren will and bring about his predicted promise

this is the same princaple that we see in scripture regarding the security of the true believers and the warnings givern to the church

also brother ,we must rember that church has many unbelievers and the unconverted along side the true christan the weat ,,and the tares

warnings also cause the unconverted to repent ,and those who are knocking at the door to continue to seek god till he be found ,,,,causes them to call upon the name of the lord to be saved ,,,,,,,a twofold purpose at least

bless you brother

Hello brothagary: you wrote:
"hi russ have you read the scripture in acts regarding the infalble promise for all who are in the boat that none would perish as apromise from god ,,,along side the warning which came after the promise ,, that the men must abide in the boat ,,,,,,,,god uses warninmgs to acopmlish his soveren will and bring about his predicted promise

this is the same princaple that we see in scripture regarding the security of the true believers and the warnings givern to the church"

Yes, but if the warning passages are to cause perseverance, aren't they false warnings, because the elect or true believers could never actually fall away in the first place???

You also wrote:
"also brother ,we must rember that church has many unbelievers and the unconverted along side the true christan the weat ,,and the tares"

I agree, the point I was making is that election is corporate not individual in nature ie nations, the church, etc... The pronouns are plural, not singular..

thanks russ

Just wanted to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed to this discussion. I knew that we would never come to a clear conclusion, I just wanted to see what the varying ideas were. I've got my own opinions just as everyone else, but I am glad that I was able to bring up some questions and that we were able to express ideas without excommunicating anyone from SI. I'm done with this one, but look foward to future communications. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!